https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...losion-england
BBC news saying it was a concert attacked in Manchester, families and kids :(
Confirmation of numerous dead, many seriously injured. Reports of injuries consistent with a blast of some sort. Police are not confirming it was a terror attack, but what can explode in a concert venue entrance hall. Police dealing with car abandoned at cross roads in Manchester.
19 dead :( 50 seriously injured.
Police now saying it was a terror attack.
Reports of possible second device, bomb disposal teams dealing with it.
Pretty low attacking kids like. Hope they are proud of themselves.... they are so brave. :punch:
No doubt be one of those radicalised British Caucasians the Police keep saying we need to be wary of, yeah right.
Cowardly C****S, hung drawn and quartered would be too good for them.
My emotions this morning are with those who will now suffer for the remainder of their lives. Physical scars leading to serious mental scars. I deeply feel for them
Death toll at 22 now, 59 injured.
Confirmed now, a sucide bomber.
Pray for the victims, their families. Hold the emergency workers, police, paramedics, first responders, Drs, nurses in your thoughts too, the horror they have had to see.
My first thoughts this morning were of compassion for those involved. My second was that whether by design or coincidence May has now won the election.
There are coincidences and there are coincidences. Two days before this all over the media Corben refuses to contemn terrorism (IRA). Now this. Just who radicalises these people?
People are considered collateral damage, the same as a bridge or road - that's the ugly truth whether we like it or not. We only have value within our own circle - outside of it we are in fact of very little value - less than an oil refinery - or the outcome of an election.
My thoughts are with those who suffered - but I'm not blinkered by grief or outrage.
'Strong Stable Leadership' - now it means so much more. The UK is fucked.
Without getting too conspiranoid on this forum (though I could), it would be naive to think the security services don't know exactly who is doing the radicalising. Given that, what kind of infiltration has been done, what kinds of quid pro quo? Useful idiots everywhere, and yes, life is a cheap means to an end, very often.
If blood will flow when flesh and steel are one
Drying in the color of the evening sun
Tomorrow's rain will wash the stains away
But something in our minds will always stay
Perhaps this final act was meant
To clinch a lifetime's argument
That nothing comes from violence and nothing ever could
For all those born beneath an angry star
Lest we forget how fragile we are
On and on the rain will fall
Like tears from a star
Like tears from a star
On and on the rain will say
How fragile we are
Outrages like this have occured before and will no doubt happen again. There is a small isolationist minority in this country and across Europe, who lead insular lives and want nothing to do with 'outsiders' and in fact some of their number hate their 'hosts' and regard it as their duty to strike out at the general population in the name of their cause. I'm sure there will be a backlash. It is inevitable and is just a matter of time.
.
The problem is we don't know their motives - we are told them by the Powers that be (and of course certain groups claim responsibility which they would). We are told this just the same as we are told that the 27 member states of the EU who are out to screw us when in fact that are not. Why this is so I don't know.
Watch Tom Hollands recent channel 4 documentary about ISIS and you will know their motives, they are chilling and implacable and they can very easily justify what they do.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/i...mand/63137-001
All you need to know about the reasoning behind last night is contained in that program. Its a very hard watch at times and Tom Holland does an excellent job with very difficult material.
Agree there is no secret as to what their motives are.
I don't doubt they have their ideology, but I ask where they get their weapons from, there training and I remember how after the twin towers all flights were grounded except the private jet carrying the Bin Laden family who had been at the Whitehouse. This is a documented fact and raises many questions about just what v governments know.
Trump has just sold 20billion dollars of death to Saudi Arabia - whose hands those weapons might end up in we don't know. Whatever the reasons or culpability of what happened last night today there are families in extreme pain - not because of idiots but because of a bigger political game of which we know very little.
What we do know, for those of us who remember the IRA is that peace can only be achieved through diplomacy, not arms sales.
As far as arms sales go I'd refer you to the classic episode of 'Yes Minister'. 'If we don't sell them weapons they will only buy them somewhere else.' Added to which munitions producers are generally located in marginal constituencies.
I never agreed with the so called solution to the IRA issue. Blair essentially reduced (did not solve) the problem by giving them what they wanted. I would have stuck with the shoot to kill policy personally but that's just me.
In any case this incident has nothing to do with arms sales and everything to do with psychopathic nutters. The only important thing is that we never give into them regardless of how many attacks they make.
Totally and utterly heart breaking, spoiled my morning to say the least when I got in to work and was told. Cant even begin to imagine what those parents must be going through :(
My daughter was set to go to Fridays concert with her friend, likely it will be cancelled now and even if it isnt ...........
Just named the second victim.... she was 8.
Won't bother them one iota. Quite the opposite.
The whole thing has left me very sad indeed, those poor people, my thoughts are with them at this terrible time :(
Stop building the Mosques and stop 90% of the problem... :sofa:
No, I don't think so. Much more complex a problem. No simple solutions. Possibly no difficult solutions either.
I believe that a large number of people in Muslim communities don't highlight bad and extreme attitudes of others in that community, because to do so would be to critisise 'their own'. Clearly you can't defend and not report those planning crimes, whatever community you are in, but my impression is these uk born extremists are people who have probably never done harm to people in their lives, but go on to horrendous crimes, so it's an easy thing for knowledge of their views and beliefs not to be challenged by others in their Muslim communities. They just think they won't go onto commit these crimes.
Also there are many Muslim people in communities that have attitudes that are far opposed to those of other people and religions. In some respects this lack of social cohesion in a societal way has been created by bigger expanding societies of Muslim people for which a pool of extremists is always going to be more. Clearly there are many moderate muslims, but I wonder how many of these moderates do turn a blind eye to others. I think it's a bigger number than we think, but it's beyond comprehension that nobody knew of this suicides bombers attitudes to extremism.
I don't know how you deal with it, but it strikes me we need to spend a whole lot more on counter terroism, we need to improve laws that make people in all communities, who ignore extreme attitudes of others and who then go into commit terrorist crimes, to be criminalised. We have also paid the price of these attacks by liberal laws which have taken some time to deal with the scumbag people like choudhary and a number of others who have got away with condoning terrorism. He was even allowed onto the tv - the bloody BBC - to spread his terrorist agenda. There are means and way to design these places with scanners and metal detectors to prevent accumulations of people. You don't let people into such places without being scanned and then being able to let bombs off in enclosed spaces within the building. What the bloody hell were the police doing in letting these people at the arena have licenses but they have no policy to screen people and run them past metal detectors. They could have got in with small concealed automatic weapons.
Spot on. We must always look at the bigger picture and apply some lateral thinking, in the aftermath of these atrocities, especially the corruption angle and how the elite/establishment, who insidiously control the world we live in, are liable to benefit.
An unpalatable thought, perhaps, but unfortunately a realistic one.
The fact is, some of the most "psychopathic nutters" of all aren't radicalised muslims, but those who occupy high positions within governments, fuelling hatred, which is ultimately why we're all expendable pawns, in their twisted quest to gain ever more wealth and power - and with it an increasing ability to RULE.
Marco.
Unfortunately Marco some people just cannot believe their own government will act against them - because of fear. Governments lie all the time - if it's about something as simple as cuts to benefits then people can see the lie - if it's about foreign policy or god forbid the death of citizens they cannot bring themselves to question whatever the government tells them.
Libya is in such a state of chaos right now (because of us) that only two organisations in there are capable of organising what happened - ISIS and the Secret Services (US.UK) - the odds are even until the words STRONG AND STABLE LEADERSHIP cone info the equation.
Anyway - I'm a fruitcake so will shut up now.
Absolutely, but for those who wish to open their eyes and see, rather than bury their heads in the sand, the evidence is there - and it's damning.
The lies are simply hidden by propaganda, driven by the elite/establishment, and fuelled by governments working covertly to maintain their best interests, all facilitated by brainwashing the public through their TV screens - and trust me, in that respect, the BBC are the biggest culprits of all.
You're far from a "fruitcake", Adrian. Like me, you're a realist, able to take the blinkers off, see through the propaganda, and embrace the (awful) reality.
Marco.
What Marco said. Crazy times we're living in. In order to be wise in these times you have to be mad to the majority! Propaganda everywhere, almost impossible to know what to believe. But I sure as sh!t don't trust the msm to tell me what's really going on in the world.
No such thing as coincidence when such power politics is being played out, I think. This is a game to these unaccountable alphabet agencies, and the elites pulling the strings are not those who sit in the Houses of Parliament. Is that far-fetched or paranoid? I don't think so. Cui bono?
We're constantly being played, our emotions manipulated by fairly simple psychological programming - how many times have you heard 'strong and stable's these past few weeks? And that's just what you've noticed consciously. We've all been prepped by this rudimentary but effective Psy op, and all we needed was an emotional trigger event to complete the conditioning. Job done, another 5 years to push through the agenda.
Now, I couldn't say with 100% certainty, but it's all too convenient with many of these events coming at politically sensitive times when things could go one way or another with political decisions or people getting angry about the way they're being governed. Terrorism is grade A social control, and so the secret services are in it up to their eyeballs.
And why, oh why, do they always remember to bring their ID cards?!
Conspiranoid rant over, as you were ;)
Or at least of a heretical disposition, sufficiently desensitised from the brainwash, thus inquisitive enough to cut through the propaganda, examine the bigger picture and see what's *really* happening.
Nope, but they're a key part of the establishment, controlled by and acting on behalf of the global super-elite.
Absolutely, and fear of seeking the truth and exposing the corruption/propaganda, will ultimately allow the above to continue, until the agenda is fulfilled and the ultimate goal is reached: the elite becoming wealthy beyond their wildest dreams and *openly* controlling the world.
Yup, you better believe it!!
Marco.
I don't really subscribe to a conspiracy type view that our governments are wholly against us. Bad things go on and they act in self interest, sure, and lots of very dodgy things go on in our police forces having too much power and no 'eyes on them', but ultimately the government are working in our interests to stop terrorism. Whether it's working and enough and best financed, and is in our best interests, is another question.
But it strikes me the rhetoric that we 'stand together against terrorism' as is seen being propagated in Manchester, in other words all different religions and communities have the same stance against it, rather than having the opposite effect of making Muslim communities report those with concerning extremist views, perversely actually it does the opposite in emboldening these communities to stay silent in not reporting such people. This is because I think whenever the differences of religious communities are made aware to the public, that it is Muslim people who blow people up (not moderates but extremists) and not christians etc in our society, the reaction of Muslim communities is to stay silent because it highlights further bigger problems. Nobody wants to have an honest debate about why it comes from the Muslim community, because of the all inclusive society we live in, liberal attitudes, and lack of common sense. Ironically this then stops the debate about how it's caused and unwittingly the all community standing against terrorism approach, probably has a counter effect.
The telegraph is reporting today that the Imman of the mosque this bomber attended has given a statement to say he was aware of the bombers extremist views. What then happened. Was it reported to services. What did intelligence services do. I'm sure it will all come out. Im not making a sensationalist point but the likelihood is many moderate people knew about this guys views.
They're always "known to the intelligence services", whatever that means.
If you trace back all terrorist events, including hungerford you will find that they happened at some pivotal political point, whether an election where one party wants absolute control and power, or an excuse to invade Iraq and kick start this whole shit off - 200 billion is making someone very rich.
And yes, it's amazing how someone blows themselves to smithereens but has an intact driving licence. Or that the twin towers can collapse and cause unimaginable destruction yet the ID cards of the culprits v are found in 24 hours - bullshit - wake up.
If you locked up all UK muslims with extremist views you would have to build a lot of new prisons. That is before you consider that holding extremist views is not actually a crime in this country.
BTW I'm not sure if some previous posters are suggesting that this was a false flag attack designed to influence the election result but if they are I have to say I consider that to be utterly risible.
The point nobody seems willing to make, is that we are at war! And, under attack from an enemy hiding in plain sight. The extremist nuts that want to undertake attacks do not go totally 'under the radar'. Their communities will have within them, people that know full well who they are and are willingly keep quiet about them or even shelter and assist.
If you're government cared about you then 30,000 old people wouldn't die every year from cold. Means testing has been proved to show that for whatever reasons less older people apply - so more will die. How many? 40,000? These are people. These are facts. So don't tell me they care about the odd few. There should be vigils for the mothers, fathers, grandmothers and grandfathers who die every year because it's eat or heat.
I'm not denying there are some twisted f*ckers n the UK - everywhere - but someone is manipulating them into taking action. I don't think they know who those people are - just as we don't truly know. What happened in Manchester happens every day in those middle Eastern countries we have meddled in and then walked away from leaving a vacuum and lots of arms. We think little of it when we hear of another suicide bombing in a market in Afghanistan or wherever - it doesn't affect us - but it does.
If we want to fix it in the UK then we have to fix it in the middle east - but for some reason the West doesn't seriously want to - 200billion and much more is the reason.
If we are at war it is with our own ideology which looked at from the other side is just as twisted.
And now I'll shut up - I'm here to speak about HiFi.... I can hear the applause.
Spot on! Ultimately, however, the whole situation stems from people (not just the Muslims) being manipulated and controlled by the agenda of the elite. Scrape past the surface and dig deep (whilst searching the Internet and accessing certain content is still within your control), and you may be truly shocked at what you find...
Or it might all be covered up, as usual, to protect the interests of the elite and further the brainwash. No doubt, however, that the Imam in question was indeed aware of the bomber's extremist views, but said nothing for the reasons you've outlined.Quote:
The telegraph is reporting today that the Imman of the mosque this bomber attended has given a statement to say he was aware of the bombers extremist views. What then happened. Was it reported to services. What did intelligence services do. I'm sure it will all come out.
Simon, it's not as straightforward and simple as them being "wholly against us" [not everyone in our governments is bad or corrupt]. One must guard against such simplistic thinking of 'they're all out to get us', as it impedes the insight needed to get to the truth.
However, you have to grasp the concept that governments are ultimately controlled by the super-rich, often in the most insidious of ways, and so their ultimate actions are always steered in favour of protecting the former's best interests - and that can be achieved either knowingly or unknowingly by those responsible for making the key decisions, thus driving the agenda and furthering the process of making the elite, even richer and more powerful, to its ultimate end.
Marco.
Well said.
Ultimately this is all our own fault... We started illegal wars in the Middle East in order to protect oil supplies (in order to take control of other peoples oil would be more accurate) and in the process killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims, destabilised the regimes that had been keeping a lid on tribal and religious tensions and paved the way for the creation of Al Qaeda and ISIS. Remember that for every innocent Westerner killed in terrorist atrocities such as in Manchester there are probably 500 Muslims killed by Western armed forces.... Do you really expect them not to want revenge? If the boot were on the other foot would you not want revenge?
I don't see it Marco as being a government pandering to the elite, to the effect of how that can or can't impact on what gets done or not done, or who is responsible in the aftermath of this tradegy or if anyone in government has been responsible for any intelligence service inactivity. This is because politics will draw people according to the public views and the media have a huge part to play in that. They will find out if government fault is at part e.g. Services not having resources, a bungled investigation to the bomber etc. Pandering to elite happens.
I see it more as a government not admitting to its inefficiency and corruptability. An organisation which effectively governs itself will be corrupt. It goes deep when we trust police and intelligence services and have no idea what they do or overlook etc. We see this corruptibility in government with expense scandals and everyday with police etc. But it's doubtful what this really has to do with the issue at question at the moment because it's early days, the real question is how we prevent these terrorist attacks.
I'm absolutely sure it comes from the public, insisting laws deal with people who turn a blind eye to terrorists and extreme views, and greater societal tackling of the problem. If I talk up to police in the knowledge of extremists, if I were a Muslim and these nutters were in my community circle, and so does everyone else, it's much more powerful than the pokey police and intelligence services with paltry budgets. I'd prefer more power in societies hands in this kind of way. They could have gone round and they'd have intelligence on this bomber.
I also wonder what the hell is anyone 23 years old going to visit Syria and returning to bomb people in Manchester. Services knew this Syria visit as reported today. He is hardly going there for a holiday, and he should have vans and surveillance outside his house, phones tapped, the whole caboodle. What the hell are we doing letting hate preachers go round the country encouraging terrorism, happening just last year. I can find a hate preach video on you tube encouraging terrorism in about a minute. I'm talking about a British Muslim hate preacher and video in the uk.
Can you do that again please, Simon, this time with paragraphs? Just makes it so MUCH easier to read. Ta! :)
Marco.
I'm sorry but I've got to pull you up on this because this is so terribly ill informed and just wrong. There has been Islamic extremism since the beginning of Islam. In a historical context certainly. Islam has a violent religious element, whilst people live with it as moderates too.
Also sadaam hussein killed inordinately more muslims than any democratic western forces have killed innocent muslims in friendly fire. He killed more muslims than anyone else in the late 20th century. That's why we went in to get him out. I always believed it right for removal on a regime change basis therefore, whilst the wmd issue was a political uk smokescreen. The Americans wanted him out for regime change. This was to stop these heinous crimes and try and institute democracy.
Isis are killing huge numbers of innocent people e.g. The Yazidi communities, raping and murdering people. Thousands of people.
There are not 500 people against 1. This I'm afraid is not true. They are killing muslims themselves for goodness sake. Isis are just barbaric, and these communities deserve the full intervention of our power and governments to eradicate Isis. Just like our intervention in Kosovo which also protected Muslim people and was a great success / campaign.
This issue is not to be conflated with how a twenty year old British man can decide to kill his own citizens at pop concert, far worse children. It has absolutely nothing to do with this above seperate forces involvement. If this bomber supports a cause for legitimate ends, which is so far beyond comprehension when killing people, how do you suppose he can do so when that same cause is also killing innocent muslims in Syria and Iraq etc.