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View Full Version : The Celestion kid strikes again.....!



Marco
21-02-2011, 01:50
.....paying way too much for vintage speakers, lol. Here's what I won (or lost? :eyebrows:) on Ebay earlier:


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190500760141&afsrc=1

I was all set to put my final bid in of a grand to secure them, or so I thought, (and yes even that was probably too much, as good ones like these normally go for around £600-900), and in the last 30 secs Del says to me: "If you *really* want them, increase your maximum bid quickly to £1500, just to make sure...."

So it was lucky (or unlucky, lol) I did, as unknown to me, some f*cker came out of the blue and placed a £1300 bid just before I'd upped my max bid to £1500, so I won them literally in the last few seconds of the auction!

Had Del not said what she did, I'd have lost them, and of course been £1320 richer!! :lol:

*However*, being serious now, as the speakers were local to me in the Wirral, I went along on Friday night with some CDs to check them out, and one listen to them on the end of the current owner's Technics separates system, playing music I know inside out, and it was obvious just how special these speakers were :eek:

I would not have paid what I did for them otherwise, and would probably have pulled out at around £700.

Anyway, apart from them being in gorgeous condition in a rich walnut finish I adore (rarer and likely to have been a more expensive option in their day), the sound they produced on the end of such a modest system (hooked up with bell-wire, no less!) was quite incredible.......

I'm obviously used to listening to speakers with huge slam, clarity, attack and immediacy, and these Celestions sounded rather uncannily almost as big, and as capable in that respect, as my Lockwood Majors!!

The sheer 'out of the box' shockingly vivid realism the 66s produce in the mid and top end, have to be heard to be believed. So I knew there and then that these speakers were very special and I just HAD to have them for the forthcoming show at Scalford Hall :trust:

There was no way I was lugging my Lockwoods down again, and the stand-mount speaker options we had I just don't think would've worked in the large-ish room we've been given, so being determined to produce a good sound in our room, I had to find a suitable pair of speakers to use.

I'd known about how good the 66 Studio Monitors were from what people had said the last time when I bought the 15XRs, and that coupled with some extensive research, is what piqued my interest in them, especially when I noticed a link to some for sale recently on pfm, which were the ones I eventually bought :)

Reading the description in this old ad, which mirrored what I'd heard myself, also made me want to buy them: http://cork.gumtree.ie/cork/58/57981158.html

So now I have three bloody sets of speakers! Never mind, I'm sure I'll find a home somewhere for them in Wynn Hall! ;)

I'll report back tomorrow with how they sound on the end of my system (and Ian Walker's), and also take some nice pics.

Off to bed now, so laters! :cool:

Marco.

Rare Bird
21-02-2011, 01:54
Nice
You should have big ballerkz lifting those things aswell. ;)

Ask me what you want about em :)

Marco
21-02-2011, 02:05
Lol - well tell me what you think is best about them, oh and specifically what's good or bad about their crossovers (in terms of what would benefit from modifying, if anything ;)):

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4238/celestion66crossovers.png (http://img222.imageshack.us/i/celestion66crossovers.png/)

Looks pretty decent to me, but you know me, I'm up for a fettle-ette if it'd be worthwhile! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Rare Bird
21-02-2011, 02:37
Those on the brown board are early ones.

E-mail dude

Marco
21-02-2011, 07:47
Got it, dude - cheers :)

When I get them, I'll double check that mine have those types of crossover boards. They should do, as the pic was taken from a site featuring early ones like mine with the black (non-veneered) fronts.

Mine definitely have the same terminals and face place as you indicated.

Regarding the crossovers, I've read that the later versions with the veneered fronts supposedly have improved crossovers (although some say they were just more complicated...), so I wondered if there was any truth in that?

Yes, the inductors look nice, so I'll leave those as they are.

Regarding re-capping them, as you recommended to ensure the tweeters or midrange units don't blow, I may well do that, although the old chap I bought them from (who'd had them almost from new) liked to play them loud (lol) and has done so for the last 30-odd years, so if anything was likely to blow, you'd have thought it would've happened by now? ;)

Finally, mine are in a beautiful rich walnut finish, which seems quite rare, as all the other 66 Studio Monitors I've seen are in ubiquitous 70s teak... Do you know if that would've made them more expensive to buy originally? I know that more 'exotic' finishes on speakers, usually only available as a special option, often attract a premium price.

If so, that may explain why those I were bidding against were prepared to pay 'over the odds', bearing in mind that the bidding was already at £620 before I got involved, with nearly two days of the auction still left.

Marco.

DSJR
21-02-2011, 11:42
Here's me thinking you may have paid a couple of hundred for 'em....... :D

The rest of us could buy some Beovox 5702's for a ton or two, re-cap them and grin from ear to ear :lol:

Reid Malenfant
21-02-2011, 11:51
You should have big ballerkz lifting those things aswell. ;)
Actually they don't weigh anywhere near as much as you'd think, pretty easy to carry one on your own as i have found out :) They aren't bulky except in height.

Nice speakers, i'm keeping my pair :cool:

Marco
21-02-2011, 11:58
Here's me thinking you may have paid a couple of hundred for 'em....... :D

The rest of us could buy some Beovox 5702's for a ton or two, re-cap them and grin from ear to ear :lol:

Lol! Show me a near mint pair of Studio 66 monitors which have sold recently for a couple of hundred quid, particularly ones finished in walnut?

:popcorn: :popcorn:

Marco.

Marco
21-02-2011, 12:01
Hi Mark,


Actually they don't weigh anywhere near as much as you'd think, pretty easy to carry one on your own as i have found out They aren't bulky except in height.


Indeed, but I'll confirm it after lugging them into the car tonight...


Nice speakers, i'm keeping my pair :cool:

If you're coming to Scalford, you'll hear just how nice they can sound when perfect. Did you refurb yours in the end? :)

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
21-02-2011, 12:07
If you're coming to Scalford, you'll hear just how nice they can sound when perfect. Did you refurb yours in the end? :)
Oh i know how good they sound :eyebrows: It really is surprising given the standard light weight enclosures but there you go :confused:

Not yet no, i still have a mess of other stuff to get round to before considering what to do about the visually challenged 66s :D

At least knowing the speakers will give me some insight into what the other equipment is doing ;)

Clive
21-02-2011, 12:08
Marco, those capacitors are old and as suggested could do with replacing. Bear in mind that sometimes putting really good capacitors works fantastically but at other times said capacitors whilst having the same capacitance as the originals will be quite different in their ESR (resistance). This can change crossover points and possibly phase - but nothing that will damage anything. Having given that warning I'd suggest some ClarityCap MR.

Ian Walker
21-02-2011, 12:45
"as unknown to me, some f*cker came out of the blue and placed a £1300 bid just before I'd upped my max bid to £1500"

That was the sellers bezzy mate:lol:

Marco
21-02-2011, 12:52
Drats - scuppered by a devious scouser's dasterdly plan!! :doh: :eyebrows:

Marco.

Alex_UK
21-02-2011, 12:58
"as unknown to me, some f*cker came out of the blue and placed a £1300 bid just before I'd upped my max bid to £1500"

That was the sellers bezzy mate:lol:

At least it wasn't Ian trying to bag the same speakers for the same reason - now that would have been funny! :lol:

Look forward to hearing them Marco, they're a speaker I'd considered - well, until some numpty paid way over the odds for them and prices will have rocketed - 15XR's still haven't recovered to normal levels on ebay since the last time you bought speakers! ;)

Marco
21-02-2011, 13:04
Hi Clive,


Marco, those capacitors are old and as suggested could do with replacing. Bear in mind that sometimes putting really good capacitors works fantastically but at other times said capacitors whilst having the same capacitance as the originals will be quite different in their ESR (resistance). This can change crossover points and possibly phase - but nothing that will damage anything. Having given that warning I'd suggest some ClarityCap MR.

Thanks for that, and noted :)

However, I'm unsure if the crossovers in my pair are identical. One would certainly presume so, although they will most certainly be of a similar vintage.

Can anyone work out the cap values from the pic - or does anyone have a circuit diagram, or know from experience what they are?

Clarity Cap MRs are what I used in the crossovers of my Monitor Golds, so I know how good they are, and those are the ones I will use if I decide to tweak the Celestions.

The thing is though, they sound amazing as they are and seemingly don't lack any clarity, nor do they have a rather tubby old-fashioned sound (quite the opposite!), like the MGs did before I upgraded their existing crossovers....

I can also say that about my 15XRs, which are entirely original and sound simply wonderful for their size.

Perhaps Celestion were simply very good at matching the right capacitors to their drive units, sonically in terms of voicing them, regardless of if they are the best available now, bearing in mind that their speakers in those days were built from scratch from the ground up as entirely their own designs?

Sometimes with these things you just hit upon the right recipe and get the 'seasoning' spot on.

It's a difficult one to judge whether it's worth the risk (and expense, as CC MRs ain't cheap) of f*cking them up when they sound quite wonderful as they are now..............

All sensible suggestions, though, will be gratefully received! :cool:

Marco.

Marco
21-02-2011, 13:14
Hi Alex,


At least it wasn't Ian trying to bag the same speakers for the same reason - now that would have been funny! :lol:

Look forward to hearing them Marco, they're a speaker I'd considered - well, until some numpty paid way over the odds for them and prices will have rocketed - 15XR's still haven't recovered to normal levels on ebay since the last time you bought speakers! ;)

Lol - indeed that would've been a serious giggle!! Hope you like them when you hear them, dude.

Regarding your other point, yes, but my job here is to inform people of what's good, vintage or new, particularly when it offers high SPPV, so they too can benefit from the discovery of an amazing product by trying it themselves - not to worry about inflating prices (not that Ditton 66 Studio Monitors being superb is news to anyone here!) ;)

Incidentally, if anyone would like to read a PDF file of the original brochure from 1973, it can be downloaded here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?6asa528p5yomsao

Marco.

Alex_UK
21-02-2011, 13:20
Regarding your other point, yes, but my job here is to inform people of what's good, vintage or new, particularly when it offers high SPPV, so they too can benefit from the discovery of an amazing product by trying it themselves - not to worry about inflating prices (not that Ditton 66 Studio Monitors being superb is news to anyone here!) ;)

Just having a bit of fun, bud - the 66's certainly don't need any encouragement to sell, and especially in the walnut (which is what I'd be after) I reckon, as they are timeless to look at, too.

Alex_UK
21-02-2011, 13:23
Lol! Show me a near mint pair of Studio 66 monitors which have sold recently for a couple of hundred quid, particularly ones finished in walnut?

:popcorn: :popcorn:

Marco.

Not mint, not walnut... (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Celestion-66-Monitor-Speakers-/190503233215?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item2c5ae0a6bf#ht_500wt_1156) If they really DID sell for that then someone got a stupendous bargain! :eek: (And now I'm thinking F*ck, why didn't I spot those before!)

Reid Malenfant
21-02-2011, 13:26
The crossover looks quite good actually :) Looks like a 24Db/octave low pass feeding the bass driver, the mid is fed by a 12Db/octave high & low pass from what i can make out. The tweeter looks to be fed from an 18Db/octave high pass filter, interestingly the caps feeding the tweeter look like metalised plastic of some form or another.

The only nasties are on the mid & bass units. It looks like the mid is fed via a 24uf & 6uf in parallel & there is a cheapy directly accross the driver itself at 4uf (by the looks of things - from what i can see :eyebrows:).

If i was going to change anything it'd be the caps on the midrange, but seeing as you know the tweeter caps are of reasonable quality & not cheap reversible electrolytics you could upgrade those as well if you wanted to with no worries about ESR & phase shifts :)

RochaCullen
21-02-2011, 13:27
Hey Marco,

That review you saw on Gumtree is posted by a guy from Cork, Ireland. As I live in Cork I would love to know who this guy is, since he always has some serious kit for sale on Gumtree.

I wonder has anyone on this forum spoken to the guy, or know who he is? :scratch:

Nathan

Marco
21-02-2011, 13:51
Hi Nathan,

Yes I noticed that, so you should try and find out. I particularly enjoyed reading this part of his appraisal:


...wait till you hear the thrill of the power of a bass drum reproduced through these masterpieces as the "thud" hits you in stomach and gives you goosebumps!

...These speakers are the very antithesis of modern "tight" speakers with their hamburger sized bass drivers which attempt to defy the laws of physics...


Hehehe... Definitely a man after my own heart! :eyebrows:

And it mirrors what I heard from them on Friday night on the end of a good but fairly unremarkable Technics separates system. Goodness knows what they'll be capable of on the end of my Copper amp, etc!!! :eek: :gig:

Marco.

P.S Does anyone know how efficient they are? I can't seem to find any mention of this anywhere.

RochaCullen
21-02-2011, 13:56
Just had a quick Google and apparently they are fairly inefficient 4ohm monsters requiring a bit of grunt. So your copper amp might not be up to the job.

Marco
21-02-2011, 13:56
The crossover looks quite good actually :) Looks like a 24Db/octave low pass feeding the bass driver, the mid is fed by a 12Db/octave high & low pass from what i can make out. The tweeter looks to be fed from an 18Db/octave high pass filter, interestingly the caps feeding the tweeter look like metalised plastic of some form or another.

The only nasties are on the mid & bass units. It looks like the mid is fed via a 24uf & 6uf in parallel & there is a cheapy directly accross the driver itself at 4uf (by the looks of things - from what i can see :eyebrows:).

If i was going to change anything it'd be the caps on the midrange, but seeing as you know the tweeter caps are of reasonable quality & not cheap reversible electrolytics you could upgrade those as well if you wanted to with no worries about ESR & phase shifts :)

Cheers, Mark - noted. However, I'd need to know the µF value of the relevant caps before proceeding any further :)

Marco.

Marco
21-02-2011, 14:01
Hi Nathan,


Just had a quick Google and apparently they are fairly inefficient 4ohm monsters requiring a bit of grunt. So your copper amp might not be up to the job.

Cheers for the info. Yes I read that somewhere, but I've also read the opposite and that they're pretty valve friendly. Experience with Celestion speakers from the same product line suggests that I'm more inclined to side with the latter view.

Furthermore, if a 40W Technics amp can drive them to ludicrous levels, I suspect that I don't have much to worry about. The Copper amp certainly drives the 15XRs with no problems whatsoever, and normally small speakers are much less efficient than larger ones.

However, if it is a problem, I'll just have to find a monster SS amp to partner them! ;)

I'll let you know later if this proves to be a real issue or not :cool:

Marco.

RochaCullen
21-02-2011, 14:13
Yes it would be great to know how you get on.

Your mentioning that a Technics 40W amp can drive them sufficiently would make me think that you are right and that they are reasonably efficient. Having had myself a Technics 40W amp, I know how limited their power output can be. Plus, given the speakers come from the 70s, when amplifiers with serious grunt were not the vogue, you would not expect the Celestions to be to power hungry!

Clive
21-02-2011, 14:35
IIRC the output transformers on the copper amp are wound for 6 ohms. Should be fine.

Rare Bird
21-02-2011, 14:40
Got it, dude - cheers :)

When I get them, I'll double check that mine have those types of crossover boards. They should do, as the pic was taken from a site featuring early ones like mine with the black (non-veneered) fronts.

Mine definitely have the same terminals and face place as you indicated.

Regarding the crossovers, I've read that the later versions with the veneered fronts supposedly have improved crossovers (although some say they were just more complicated...), so I wondered if there was any truth in that?

Yes, the inductors look nice, so I'll leave those as they are.


Finally, mine are in a beautiful rich walnut finish, which seems quite rare, as all the other 66 Studio Monitors I've seen are in ubiquitous 70s teak... Do you know if that would've made them more expensive to buy originally? I know that more 'exotic' finishes on speakers, usually only available as a special option, often attract a premium price.




You may prefer the early crossover being hard wired, later were tracked PCB's.

Light woods are in fashion at the mo within housholds no? even said that i would always go for a light wood over dark anyday.

I don't think manufacturers played silly games trying to squeeze money out the punter with different finishes back then..you pay around £200 ish for a pair of '66's around '73 (just short of £2K today)


Actually they don't weigh anywhere near as much as you'd think, pretty easy to carry one on your own as i have found out :) They aren't bulky except in height.



I've had '66's in the past, a very late pair

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9028&page=5

They are not light at a guess 25-28Kg, not mega heavy buy carrying a pair from the car to the listerning room twice aint too pleasant especially if marco had a knackered back like mine..

Marco
21-02-2011, 14:42
Hi Clive,


IIRC the output transformers on the copper amp are wound for 6 ohms. Should be fine.


Yep, I was just about to post the same thing. The crossovers don't look overly complicated either, so I doubt I'll have anything to worry about :)

In fact, there's about the same in them as inside my 15" MGs, and they only have one dual-concentric driver, not multiple drive units, as per the Celestions.

Marco.

Marco
21-02-2011, 14:54
Hi dude,


You may prefer the early crossover being hard wired, later were tracked PCB's.


Yup, that was my thinking, too! :)


Light woods are in fashion at the mo within housholds no? even said that i would always go for a light wood over dark anyday.


Indeed, but only if you have a modern-style house. Whilst I like some light woods, they just look wrong in a period property like ours, or Wynn Hall, should we move there.

My real preference though is a nice mid to dark oak or walnut, as I like warm, rich wood finishes, finding 'blond' wood rather cold and incipid.

I love traditional wood panelling in period homes, so that's the look I like to create. If you look at the advert for Tannoy Westminsters in the current brochure for the Prestige range, that's my ideal kind of room :cool:


I don't think manufacturers played silly games trying to squeeze money out the punter with different finishes back then..you pay around £200 ish for a pair of '66's around '73 (just short of £2K today)


Fair enough, if that were the case, but I don't think there's any denying that the walnut finish is rarer than the teak, and thus more desirable to some.


I've had '66's in the past, a very late pair

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9028&page=5

They are not light at a guess 25-28Kg, not mega heavy buy carrying a pair from the car to the listerning room twice aint too pleasant especially if marco had a knackered back like mine..

Fortunately my back is ok when lifting a straight heavy weight. What I can't do (since my op after the removal of a non-malignant spinal tumour three years ago) is stand or kneel for very long, as part of the bone structure of my spine needed to be cut out in order to remove the tumour, so it's left me with some partial immobility.

Other than that though, and of course being not right in the head, I'm hunky-dory! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
21-02-2011, 15:18
Ok Marco, you just knew i was going to perform operation 66 :eyebrows:

I can confirm that the values i gave earlier are correct :)

The capacitors fitted on the crossovers on my pair of 66s are different, but still film types. In my case the capacitors connected directly to the tweeter (top right of the picture) are both 3.3uf for a total of 6.6uf.

The capacitors connected to the speaker input feeding the tweeter (top left of picture) in my case are 6 x 0.68uf for a total of 4.08uf. I'd suggest 4uf is close enough & that on the picture they'd both be 2uf...

Marco
21-02-2011, 15:29
Cool, Mark - thanks for that. I'll copy it for reference :)

As an aside, how difficult would you say the 66's are to drive?

I know you've got a monster SS amp, but I'm sure you'll have a feel for how they perform in that area compared to other speakers you use and whether you'd foresee any issues when using them with my Copper valve amp (40 WPC pure Class A with trannies wound for 6 ohms).

Any thoughts on this, dude, would be appreciated :cool:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
21-02-2011, 15:31
I can't see any problems with even a low powered amp in all honesty, 40W will make some noise :eyebrows: They are a relatively easy load :)

Marco
21-02-2011, 15:37
Excellent! :)

If you fancy a wee interlude in between my ramblings, here's an interesting video, showing a guy who's just bought an old Revox reel-to-reel machine, and his system just happens to use Celestion Ditton 66 Studio Monitors, which he plays some music through, enthusing beforehand about how good they are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf-ZIznYvHk&feature=channel

Enjoy!

Marco.

RochaCullen
21-02-2011, 16:02
Great video,

Sounds like there is plenty of slam coming from those speakers. Can't believe I just used the word slam!! :lol:

He's got some nice kit.

Marco
21-02-2011, 22:20
Just got home with the Celestions..... Oh lordy, lordy, mummy daddy!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eyebrows:

That's all I'm saying for the moment, dudes ;)

Laters!

Marco.

Alex_UK
21-02-2011, 22:25
Bye Bye Lockwoods? Is anyone taking bets? ;)

Reid Malenfant
21-02-2011, 22:28
Just got home with the Celestions..... Oh lordy, lordy, mummy daddy!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eyebrows:

That's all I'm saying for the moment, dudes ;)
It's a pair of reasonable speakers, nothing more to say :eyebrows: Enclosures are cack in all honesty but i won't spoil your enjoyment :) They are lightweights due to the design, seen nearly as much mass in Leak Sandwich 600s which are much smaller ;)

Marco
21-02-2011, 22:41
Sorry, Mark - they're behaving like much more than merely reasonable speakers here, trust me!

Maybe yours aren't performing at their best due to their very poor condition?

You and I have different ideas when it comes to what constitutes as a good enclosure. High-mass is not ALWAYS the best way. The 66's sound like a smaller version of my Lockwoods (almost identical voicing), and that's the best compliment I can pay them :)

And they absolutely LOVE the copper amp. I suggest you come to Scalford and have a listen, matey, and hear it for yourself! :cool:

Right, more music beckons - I am a very happy bunny :gig:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
21-02-2011, 22:55
:D Marco, i know how they sound & yes they are rather nice. No doubt this is due to the midrange dome & the bass extension due to the ABR...

I know yours won't sound much if any different to the pair i have, after all we just have different tweeters at the end of the day ;)

The enclosures on my speakers may be looking a tad unpretty, but all an enclosure is about is the woofer & bass at the end of the day, as mine are not compromised in that respect i know they'll be the same as yours :)

Mine are just cosmetically damaged, they will match yours except for the treble end ;) The enclosures are still just as sealed as when they were new...

Marco
21-02-2011, 23:00
Mark, we've got VERY different systems, dude, which could explain why we're hearing things somewhat differently, so let's just leave it there.... ;)

Are you coming to the Scalford Hall show?

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
21-02-2011, 23:11
Yes i'll be at Scalford, but you are taking things for granted... The Celestion Ditton 66s are nothing to do with my main system, they are in another room with totally seperate components ;)

Look, the only difference between my 66s & yours (forgetting the cosmetic condition) are the tweeters as the standard versions on my 66s were both blown... I doubt virtually anyone would notice a difference between mine & yours sound wise, best if they are blindfolded though :lol:

We both have 66s chap, nothing more to say, they were good in the day & still sound superb compared to modern smaller speakers, but the enclosures are really crap... Give em a knock ;)

Marco
21-02-2011, 23:18
BOLLOCKS! Are you suggesting that just because we have the same speakers that they will sound the same? So all speakers sound the same regardless of the system being used to drive them????

:lol: :lol: :mental:

You're entitled to your opinion (even if it is ludicrous), but the fact is you cannot hear what I'm hearing now - END OF.

So, Mark, don't try and tell me what I'm hearing and that it must be the same as you, just because we're using the same speakers. That is just plain daft. Anyway, you can judge the results for yourself at Scalford Hall.

I suggest, however, you re-read your remarks to me tonight (shown below), when I reported that I was clearly hearing something quite special with the Celestions, and consider if what you wrote was in any way appropriate or considerate?

It was your rather rude and dismissive tone that caused my annoyance, which prompted the subsequent reaction you got from me!


It's a pair of reasonable speakers, nothing more to say. Enclosures are cack in all honesty but i won't spoil your enjoyment. They are lightweights due to the design, seen nearly as much mass in Leak Sandwich 600s which are much smaller...


Dear oh dear.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Surely you can see how badly that came across? 'Raining on my parade' in a rather unconstructive and somewhat unfriendly way would be an apt way to describe it.

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
21-02-2011, 23:26
Not at all, but with the same system there will be very little if any difference between mine & your 66s as only the tweeters are different, if you think otherwise then you need some better drugs :eyebrows:

tommy6206
21-02-2011, 23:26
we need pics

Marco
21-02-2011, 23:31
Hi Gary,

Oh don't worry pics will be coming tomorrow - they look lovely, if you like vintage speakers :)

Marco.

tommy6206
21-02-2011, 23:58
Hi Marco
Well I do have a pair of ditton 15xr's and a pair of 44's ;)

Marco
22-02-2011, 00:16
Lol, well I guess that qualifies you as a vintage speaker fan :)

The 66s really are a bit special. I honestly can't believe I'm listening to completely unmodified, nearly 40 year-old loudspeakers :eek:

I had to spend a fortune on the crossovers in my Lockwoods to get them to sound this good (and admittedly a little better, but not by a huge margin other than in terms of sheer scale, due to the difference in the sizes of cabinets) - I kid you not.

They're just so effortlessly musical with any genre of music I've put through them so far - brilliant stuff! :eyebrows:

I'm afraid it highlights again just how little progress we've made in terms of loudspeaker sonic performance in the last goodness knows how many years....

Oh, and I found out how sensitive they are after reading the PDF file linking to the original brochure I posted earlier :doh:

From the brochure:


4.8 watts pink noise input produces 90db SPL at one metre in anechoic conditions


The stated amplifier requirements are 10-160 watts RMS. So with that info and the above sensitivity specs, it's no wonder they have no problem being driven plenty loud by the Copper amp!

I can't believe some of the bollocks written by people sometimes, such as Nathan referred to earlier. Whoever thought that the 66's were a difficult or demanding load, needing loads of power to perform optimally, are quite simply idiots who don't have a clue.

Marco.

Rare Bird
22-02-2011, 00:47
I'm afraid it highlights again just how little progress we've made in terms of loudspeaker sonic performance in the last goodness knows how many years....



Thank goodness i'm not alone..welcome to 1973 dude ;)

Marco
22-02-2011, 01:12
Hi Alex,


Bye Bye Lockwoods? Is anyone taking bets? ;)

Sorry I missed that.... Lol, not quite! The Lockwoods are going nowhere.

What the Celestions have is a very similar sonic signature to the Lockwoods, using 15" Tannoy Monitor Golds, (very dynamic sounding and musically informative), albeit with less scale, as the cabinets on the 66's are about a third of the size.

*But* they appear to need less driving to make a very big sound, and yet, on paper, the Monitor Golds are much more sensitive (95db) :scratch:

The uncanny thing, however, is that the Celestions are 3-way speakers, yet sound so seamless, coherent and well integrated that they almost give the 'point source' effect I so love of the Tannoys.....

There is simply no sense that you are listening to a 3-way speaker with multiple drive units, which is brilliant but rather bizarre!

From Hi-Fi Answers magazine, back in the day, commenting on Celestion Studio 66 Monitors:


The Power available proved to be more than adequate to cope with the loudest orchestral climaxes available (or even required), and indeed this power, and the relatively high efficiency of the chosen speakers, was sufficient on one occasion when we wanted to provide concert levels in a large hall 110 x 55ft with a 25ft high ceiling.

A most impressive performance, and on this occasion it was just possible to clip the amplifier into the speakers, which seemed perfectly willing and able to accept more power!

Near perfect.

We can say very little to criticise these speakers. They are large, expensive and extremely accurate!

Mid-range was typified by an almost complete lack of resonance, distortion or beaming effects, and certainly seemed to vindicate the new 2 ¼ inch dome radiator. The treble end, from 5kHz upward, was handled by the HF2000 unit.


I completely concur, especially with the bits in bold, as that's what I'm hearing right now with them.

Marco.

P.S (For those in the know) The serial number on my pair of 66's is 000260 - I presume that this indicates there are pretty early ones?

RochaCullen
22-02-2011, 09:37
Great to hear they are bedding in well.

If you use any more superlatives I might be convinced to use this years bonus to relieve my Cork neighbour of his set. :eek:

Tell us more about positioning, how you have them set up, and how they behave in the room.

Nathan

DSJR
22-02-2011, 10:30
I'd like to make a comment that speaker cabinets don't have to be totally dead and acoustically inert. It's all part of the art of speaker design to balance all things carefully. That's not to say that some sound deadening panels may not make a slight difference (two layers on each wall), but the ABR shouldn't cause too much excess pressure inside the boxes.

By the way re cabinet knuckle rapping - the Tannoy Turnberry's and Canterbury's sound like wardrobes when rapped, yet don't sound boxy at all to my ears.....

Marco
22-02-2011, 10:34
Hi Nathan,

Cheers, mate :)

Has the guy in Cork still got them - I thought he'd sold them?

I'll spend a day listening properly to the Celestions and answer your questions thoroughly.

Marco.

DSJR
22-02-2011, 10:45
Will they replace the 15XR's until you move (if that's still on the cards)?

Welder
22-02-2011, 12:33
“I'd like to make a comment that speaker cabinets don't have to be totally dead and acoustically inert. It's all part of the art of speaker design to balance all things carefully.”

Do you think the majority of speaker manufacturers tune cabinets Dave? It would really mean testing each unit after production and I’m not convinced that it’s cost effective. Perhaps that’s why you get good uns and bad uns :scratch:

“That's not to say that some sound deadening panels may not make a slight difference (two layers on each wall), but the ABR shouldn't cause too much excess pressure inside the boxes.”

Slight difference!
Erm, I think it makes a lot of differences. Having recently rebuilt my cabs, which weren’t exactly floppy to start with to my ears the difference is considerable.
If the speaker is designed specifically with cabinet resonance as a feature then obviously you don’t want to interfere with it. I would have some concerns about keeping such a design “in tune” in the manufacturing process and differing environments when in use
bearing in mind the effects of temperature on most wood and fibre based products, knocks and bangs air moisture content etc.

Imo cabinets make a vast difference, open baffles more than demonstrate this.

DSJR
22-02-2011, 12:42
Apparently, it's not the cabinets, more the air resonances within them - hence the preference with some to have non-parallel panels, curves or in your case, none at all ;)

Tightening up a box can push nasty hi-Q resonances into the midband. my ancient museum-piece Spendors tune these resonances out of the mid and with the port-hole modofied to a tube, the bass problems in these aren't anything like as audible as before.

The thing is, with Ditton 66's, it'll only be a potantial problem if the volume is whacked up too high, and bearing in mind the age of the speakers and the tired old brittle glues I've seen on some old Celestion and Goodmans drivers, the last thing I'd want to do is thrash them, out of respect for them. In the case of Ditton 66's, Marco is already discovering that they're one of a rare breed that doesn't NEED to be thrashed to "get" the musical message. I just hope the show doesn't break them.....

Rare Bird
22-02-2011, 12:43
P.S (For those in the know) The serial number on my pair of 66's is 000260 - I presume that this indicates there are pretty early ones?
In that case you need a serious cap change.

Welder
22-02-2011, 12:52
@Dave

Ah, I see.
Tbh, I don’t have much experience of commercial designs, as I’ve been building speakers for that many years now I don’t bother with them.
I would be interested to hear these 66’s though ;)

Rare Bird
22-02-2011, 12:56
John:
The '66's are ace speakers, the one i had were one of the last pairs, not as old as Marco's

Beobloke
22-02-2011, 12:57
Marco,

Congrats on a very nice purchase, although £1320 - ouch! I've not heard a pair of 66s but they have been on my radar for a while so I'll be coming and visiting you at Scalford. Mind you I trust you'll be returning the favour and popping down to hear some Leak 2075s in the Cottesmore Room!

As to your speakers, I would strongly urge you to re-cap them, and for god's sake change the internal connection cable, if the picture you posted really is indicative of what they are wired with. The Leak 2075s I owned years ago had similarly thin rubbish connecting the bass unit and this actually completely REMOVED some of the frequency range (amusing story how I found out - I'll relay it one day)

For now, though - enjoy!

chris@panteg
22-02-2011, 13:04
I wouldn't mind hearing those ' classic speaker's and with a bit of fettling to come by the sound of it !

Welder
22-02-2011, 13:33
I have considered getting it together to come to one of these shows Andre but tbh if they’re anything like they used to be many years ago you cant really get a fair impression of how things sound; too much activity and systems set up in less than ideal circumstances etc etc.
I just end up getting confuzzeled with the noise :doh:

Anyway, from what little I can tell the 66’s look like they may be off to a good start with the basic design. Not too happy with the electrolytics though or the hardwiring. I had those back in the 70’s so they must be on their way out by now.
Still, if they sound okay, that’s what matter eh ;)

Rare Bird
22-02-2011, 13:34
Ever seen a pair of Ditton '66' fitted with '66 Series II' 'mids!

John
22-02-2011, 13:49
John its not only about hearing systems it about meeting like minded people and having good chats and lots of laughter

Welder
22-02-2011, 13:52
I’m a shy boy really and I would prolly say the wrong thing and get a days ban :doh:
:lolsign:

John
22-02-2011, 13:59
But it be fun

Rare Bird
22-02-2011, 14:08
Aye & some proper speakers in the AOS room this year to boot :lol:

:sofa:

Tim
22-02-2011, 14:30
Ah, Celestion Ditton's..... takes me back to my yoof!

Enjoy :)

MartinT
22-02-2011, 14:40
Hi Tim

Could you do us a favour please and pop in to the Welcome area, introduce yourself and tell us what system you have and the music you like?

Cheers!

Tim
22-02-2011, 14:48
OK will do, sorry to barge in..... I'm a bit impetuous! :o

SPS
22-02-2011, 20:24
nice one marco... about 10 years ago a pair of 66's were in the local secondhand shop... i scoffed at them... wish i hadn't.. they where about £60 if i remember correctly

it's suprising how good alot of the old kit sounds,
and old speakers do well
in the last few weeks i been having a good mess with some of my collection, the one that suprised the most so far are a pair of b&w dm1's, not with the emi drivers, a 6" ish bass driver and a couple of tweeters.. really nice for a small speaker i too have a pair of celestion ditton 15 but not the xr version same tweeter as the b& w's... i'll have to give them a try...
they all sound well and quite loud with a just a couple of watts.

i also got a single pye corner speaker a few weeks ago, its very tannoy sounding ;)

cheers
steve

spendorman
22-02-2011, 20:53
nice one marco... about 10 years ago a pair of 66's were in the local secondhand shop... i scoffed at them... wish i hadn't.. they where about £60 if i remember correctly

it's suprising how good alot of the old kit sounds,
and old speakers do well
in the last few weeks i been having a good mess with some of my collection, the one that suprised the most so far are a pair of b&w dm1's, not with the emi drivers, a 6" ish bass driver and a couple of tweeters.. really nice for a small speaker i too have a pair of celestion ditton 15 but not the xr version same tweeter as the b& w's... i'll have to give them a try...
they all sound well and quite loud with a just a couple of watts.

i also got a single pye corner speaker a few weeks ago, its very tannoy sounding ;)

cheers
steve

DM1's with a 6" or so round bass unit? That is interesting, any chance of photos? I thought all DM1's had EMI elliptical.

reddish75
22-02-2011, 23:31
If your still looking at recapping these 66's look up 'celestion ditton 66 needs midrange' on diyaudio all the information's there including crossover schematics etc, i followed these guides to redo some ditton 44's, they now sound even better.

chris

SPS
23-02-2011, 10:07
DM1's with a 6" or so round bass unit? That is interesting, any chance of photos? I thought all DM1's had EMI elliptical.

a couple of pics attached.. i would guess these are later versions ?
they sound very nice... modern sounding sort of bright and sparkly with the valve amp
i was very pleased with the sound, they have a nice bass balance, not boomy... just right for a small speaker..

Rare Bird
23-02-2011, 10:16
Um! new un on me that Steve, have you got a clearer pic of the front please?

spendorman
23-02-2011, 10:17
a couple of pics attached.. i would guess these are later versions ?
they sound very nice... modern sounding sort of bright and sparkly with the valve amp
i was very pleased with the sound, they have a nice bass balance, not boomy... just right for a small speaker..

Hi SPS, thanks for the pics, I strongly suspect that someone has converted these DM1s, using a new front baffle a replacement bass unit. I have thought of doing this myself as one of my DM1's has a faulty elliptical bass unit. I have three pairs of DM1's.

If you ever open up the cabinets, I would be interested to know what the bass units look like and what markings are on them.

Rare Bird
23-02-2011, 10:21
Hi SPS, thanks for the pics, I strongly suspect that someone has converted these DM1s, using a new front baffle a replacement bass unit.

What i was thinking

Marco
23-02-2011, 10:24
If your still looking at recapping these 66's look up 'celestion ditton 66 needs midrange' on diyaudio all the information's there including crossover schematics etc, i followed these guides to redo some ditton 44's, they now sound even better.


Hi Chris,

That's very interesting. However, you need to be a member of DIY Audio to use the search facility, and I'm not, so could you please post a link here to that discussion?

Cheers! :cool:

Guys, I was rather busy yesterday, so will respond to all the recent replies here A.S.A.P :)

Marco.

SPS
23-02-2011, 11:21
Hi SPS, thanks for the pics, I strongly suspect that someone has converted these DM1s, using a new front baffle a replacement bass unit. I have thought of doing this myself as one of my DM1's has a faulty elliptical bass unit. I have three pairs of DM1's.

If you ever open up the cabinets, I would be interested to know what the bass units look like and what markings are on them.

you clever fella...

front off... they have been re done...
my camera is crap...
the bass driver says on it 17-fgwb made 3.81 made in norway

tweeter i would guess is celestion... T1295

the small tweeter just says tu (could be vu) 29a

the pictures show the rest... thanks for the info...

i have a few emi's spare? not sure if they fit the dm1

where the two tweeters original and the just the bas verion of the emi, i would also guess its not the 13x8 ones i have.

cheers
steve

spendorman
23-02-2011, 11:49
you clever fella...

front off... they have been re done...
my camera is crap...
the bass driver says on it 17-fgwb made 3.81 made in norway

tweeter i would guess is celestion... T1295

the small tweeter just says tu (could be vu) 29a

the pictures show the rest... thanks for the info...

i have a few emi's spare? not sure if they fit the dm1

where the two tweeters original and the just the bas verion of the emi, i would also guess its not the 13x8 ones i have.

cheers
steve

Your tweeter's and crossover look original, tweeters: Celestion HF1300 and Coles 4001G, exactly the same as in DM4, DM2, Spendor BC1 etc. Your crossover is the later one as it has the mod to reduce slightly the output of the 1300 tweeter.

The original DM1 bass units were EMI 10"x 6" with a special fibreglass laminated cone, similar in construction to the 13"x8"

Your bass units may be VIFA / Seas, usually good units

reddish75
23-02-2011, 12:23
please post a link here to that discussion?

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/93055-celestion-66-needs-mid-range.html

Heres the link, i recommend that you join i think its free, just so you can follow the diagrams, theres also recomendations for capacitors/resistors to use.

chris

Rare Bird
23-02-2011, 13:16
Your bass units may be VIFA / Seas, usually good units

It's a SEAS unit i can tell by the model number sticker on the back on the magnet..6.5'' paper cone.

SPS
23-02-2011, 15:32
thanks alex and andre... thats good info thanks...
i'm more into older kit, most of my drivers are pre 1970's
and my best valves are all pre war

so have not really much to go on except a few hi fi year books when it come to later 70's and eighties kit..

cheers ...
sorry all for the slight off topic drift..

Marco
23-02-2011, 21:21
Still busy listening, chaps.... I've been positioning the Celestions in the room to get best results, so will report later regarding what I'm hearing with them, now I've got a pretty good handle on what they're capable of.

I'm certainly very impressed and have been doing direct comparisons between them and the Lockwoods - it's been an interesting battle...! :eyebrows:

Anyway, here are some piccies for your delectation, until I've finished my scribbles.....

No1 Ditton 66:


http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/562/img0324sc.jpg (http://img832.imageshack.us/i/img0324sc.jpg/)


No2 Ditton 66:


http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/9921/img0325rq.jpg (http://img638.imageshack.us/i/img0325rq.jpg/)


A Lockwood sandwich!! :eek: .........


http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/6042/img0326fp.jpg (http://img577.imageshack.us/i/img0326fp.jpg/)


The Koss 'n' Ditton show:


http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/9875/img0345yn.jpg (http://img694.imageshack.us/i/img0345yn.jpg/)


http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/176/img0344rl.jpg (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/img0344rl.jpg/)


Back later! :cool:

Marco.

Ali Tait
23-02-2011, 22:27
Funky finish on the speakers Marco.

Marco
23-02-2011, 22:46
Hi Ali,

Cheers, dude. It's probably more an effect of the flash, TBH, as it tends to bleach out the natural colour of things. However, I find the walnut finish rather more interesting and warmer than teak.

The patina on the Celestions is certainly very nice, but of course that only comes with age :)

Marco.

Rare Bird
23-02-2011, 22:48
Nice
Can't you open the door shove the Tannoy's in & forget about em ;)

Ali Tait
23-02-2011, 22:50
I'll give them a good home!

Marco
23-02-2011, 23:17
Nice
Can't you open the door shove the Tannoy's in & forget about em


Lol! But that would mean my mistress couldn't get out of the dungeon.... :eyebrows:

They both have their strengths, dude.

The Lockwoods, as you would expect, have more weight and scale (by that, I don't really mean bass, but rather presence and size of sound), and an arguably sweeter top-end, but that could be due to the electrolytic caps in the crossovers of the Celestions. Some nice polyprops will probably cure the ever so slight hard edge in the treble.

Compared with 95% of speakers on the market, the Celestions have all the weight and scale you could ever want, but the Lockwoods are truly exceptional in this area, and their 15" drivers and huge cabinets can really shift air and create earthquake bass with massive slam and gravitas, whilst still remaining tight and tuneful. The Celestions are lighter in the bass, but make up for the Lockwoods sheer heft with their very impressive speed and 'attack'.

Being true monitor designs, both are exceptionally musical sounding, coherent, accurate, transparent and hugely revealing of programme material, giving effortless microscopic insight into all recordings, but never straying into harshness, meaning that one can indulge in long listening sessions and experience no fatigue whatsoever, either with CD or vinyl, providing they are fed by a top-notch system. The Studio 66's in particular have huge resolving power, are ruthlessly revealing, although always unfailingly musical.

They are also not tonally cold in the way of some monitor designs, as the Celestions possess an organic warmth, tunefulness and texture, which keeps their presentation from ever sounding 'austere'.

They also have the edge over the Lockwoods in terms of high frequency extension and midrange alacrity (probably due to the superlative qualities of the MD500/HF2000 units - particularly the 'supertweeter effect' of the latter) which combine to create a top end that seemingly extends into infinity, giving all genres of music oodles of crystalline clarity and sparkle, and midrange detail that beguiles and enchants in a way I've never heard before, making female vocals in particular positively drip with emotion.

Their overall effect in that area, quite frankly, is just simply STUNNING.....

These Celestions really know how to portray the musical message! If there's even more to come with a crossover upgrade, then it beggars belief what these speakers are truly capable of :eek:

I may have paid £1320 for them, but quite simply this sort of performance isn't available today for under £4k (minimum), which makes them a hi-end bargain, and their beautiful vintage looks simply add further to their appeal and the pride of ownership.

More thoughts later - I'm off for another listen!

Marco.

Alex_UK
23-02-2011, 23:45
Very nice (I love walnut, hence why our living room floor will be covered in the American Black variety by tomorrow.) That pair of old wardrobes in between the 66's will definitely be playing havoc with the imaging though - Andre's rights, shove them through the little white door and let the demons play with them for a while! ;)

Look forward to hearing them next month. :)

Marco
24-02-2011, 00:14
Hi Alex,

Yes you're right about the imaging, but I'm making allowances for that temporarily due to lack of space! :eyebrows:

However, the musical abilities of the Celestions are so exceptional that I'm able to almost disregard the sonic shortcomings of their current positional arrangement :cool:

Marco.

Barry
24-02-2011, 00:44
Very nice (I love walnut, hence why our living room floor will be covered in the American Black variety by tomorrow.) That pair of old wardrobes in between the 66's will definitely be playing havoc with the imaging though - André's right, shove them through the little white door and let the demons play with them for a while! ;)

Look forward to hearing them next month. :)

Spare a thought for Tabatha (the gymnomastic melophage record cleaner) and the Gimp! :eyebrows:

Marco
24-02-2011, 01:45
LOL!

Hi Dave,


I'd like to make a comment that speaker cabinets don't have to be totally dead and acoustically inert. It's all part of the art of speaker design to balance all things carefully. That's not to say that some sound deadening panels may not make a slight difference (two layers on each wall), but the ABR shouldn't cause too much excess pressure inside the boxes.

By the way re cabinet knuckle rapping - the Tannoy Turnberry's and Canterbury's sound like wardrobes when rapped, yet don't sound boxy at all to my ears.....

Spot on, dude - as they say, there are many ways to skin a cat!

Look at the 'thin-wall', 'lossy' approach of companies like Harbeth... Totally dead and acoustically inert they are not, yet their speakers sound supremely musical, and notably (measurably) very accurate.

The high-mass enclosure approach has its undoubted merits, but it is not the only way to musical nirvana.

The fact is, the Celestions sound simply stunning in spite of their "cack cabinets", so the manufacturer appears to have got something most definitely very right ;)


Will they replace the 15XR's until you move (if that's still on the cards)?


Nope. The 15XRs are staying put in the lounge.

What I think I'll do is swap between the 66's and the Lockwoods, as the mood takes me, as I value their unique traits and adore how they both present music. Fortunately, the Lockwoods have handles and are on castors, so they're easily moved from the listening room to the bedroom (which are next door to each other, only a matter of a few feet apart) and vice versa. I think that's the way I'll do it, and keep the Celestions mainly in situ.

Yup, Wynn Hall is still on the cards, so all three sets of speakers will find a good home somewhere. I'll likely build three different systems in different rooms to accommodate them (should we buy the property) - now that will be fun! :cool:

Marco.

Rare Bird
24-02-2011, 01:51
Marco:
Do you fancy trying a pair of '66' series 2, or even '662' at some point?

Marco
24-02-2011, 02:03
Why not, dude? I seem to like the vintage Celestion sound :)

Marco.

Rare Bird
24-02-2011, 02:08
Well they are later speakers, series II had the ABR unit around the back..

Marco
24-02-2011, 02:24
Hi Adam,


Congrats on a very nice purchase, although £1320 - ouch!


Lol, I know! :eyebrows:

Thing is, they sound fantastic to my ears with performance far in excess of the price I paid for them, and they also look fab - so for me it was a win-win :)


I've not heard a pair of 66s but they have been on my radar for a while so I'll be coming and visiting you at Scalford.


I think you'll love them - they are just so goddamn insightful and musically addictive.


Mind you I trust you'll be returning the favour and popping down to hear some Leak 2075s in the Cottesmore Room!


Oh, I'll be there, matey. Will I bump into the Sondex? ;)


As to your speakers, I would strongly urge you to re-cap them, and for god's sake change the internal connection cable, if the picture you posted really is indicative of what they are wired with.

For now, though - enjoy!

Cheers, and don't worry, I am.

Having listened to them now quite carefully over a reasonable period of time, I think that I'll upgrade the caps in the HF and mid sections, as I think some subtle improvements could be made there, and then possibly rewire the crossovers with the same VDH CS-14 Hybrid cable as I used in the Monitor Golds inside the Lockwoods (shown below), but the rest will likely be left well alone, as honestly, there isn't a lot wrong with how they sound now.

Of course, I also have to check that the crossovers inside my own speakers are the same as the ones in the picture I posted earlier. Who knows - someone may have been in there already!

On the subject of crossovers, for those interested, here's what the modified ones look like inside my Lockwoods:


http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/188/img0258w.jpg (http://img577.imageshack.us/i/img0258w.jpg/)


Back of a 15" Monitor Gold (hard-wired in position, instead of using the original multi-pin plug and 'umbilical cord'):


http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/7200/img0261gs.jpg (http://img545.imageshack.us/i/img0261gs.jpg/)


Marco.

Marco
24-02-2011, 02:26
Well they are later speakers, series II had the ABR unit around the back..

Sounds interesting - wonder what impact that would have? :)

Marco.

Rare Bird
24-02-2011, 02:34
Yum Yum mate those Duelund Resistors on those X Overs are well expensive but nice..

Marco
24-02-2011, 02:40
Hi Steve,


nice one marco... about 10 years ago a pair of 66's were in the local secondhand shop... i scoffed at them... wish i hadn't.. they where about £60 if i remember correctly

it's suprising how good alot of the old kit sounds,
and old speakers do well


Indeed. I'm coming to the conclusion that there are only a handful of modern speakers I like or could live with, as more often than not the voicing just isn't my cup of cocoa.

The Celestions achieve the difficult balancing act of sounding both 'crisp and insightful', yet wonderfully rich and organic, too, with appropriate material. Their genuine monitor status ensures that they are accurate and uncoloured, but their voicing and driver compliment also ensures they are never sterile sounding.

Most modern loudspeakers do the 'hi-fi thing' very well, although many are rather 'in yer face', and struggle to convey emotion in recordings or have the effortless musicality of the Celestions. I'm so pleased with them!! :)

Marco.

Marco
24-02-2011, 02:44
Yum Yum mate those Duelund Resistors on those X Overs are well expensive but nice..

Ah, you recognised my little 'cigarillos' :eyebrows:

Yup, they defo do the bizzo. Those crossovers are the reason why the Lockwoods sound so open and dynamic and have plenty of top-end sparkle.

The original crossovers make the drivers sound positively 'sat on' in comparison!

Marco.

Rare Bird
24-02-2011, 02:48
Yeh they are very good resistors, can i ask why you have three 'ESA' & just one 'MR' caps?

Marco
24-02-2011, 02:58
Couldn't get the right values in MRs for where the SAs went, dude, otherwise there'd have been MRs fitted throughout :)

Marco.

Ali Tait
24-02-2011, 09:46
Nowt wrong with ESA's. Great value for the dosh.

Marco
24-02-2011, 09:58
They are indeed, Ali. I've used them in a number of applications, and achieved great results. Hovland Music Caps are good in crossovers, too.

The best results I've ever heard with caps, though, were those SCR Teflon ones you recommended, which I fitted as coupling caps in the Croft. Man, what a difference those made! :eek: :)

Marco.

Filterlab
24-02-2011, 10:30
They look cracking Marco, I look forward to hearing them one day.

On your listening room and bearing in mind it's a dedicated listening room, I'm surprised you haven't you haven't covered the walls with wave absorption tiles, or at least hung something up like a throw. I can see that the roof cuts in at an angle which does help remove standing waves, but given your depth of investment have you considered spending on the room?

Great speaks BTW, I love Celestions - of all budgets. I grabbed a £10 pair of little Celestions from t'Bay a few years back. They had metal tweeters and they sounded super crisp! Can't remember the model number (had a '7' in it) but I do know they were cracking little boxes.

Rare Bird
24-02-2011, 10:40
Great speaks BTW, I love Celestions - of all budgets. I grabbed a £10 pair of little Celestions from t'Bay a few years back. They had metal tweeters and they sounded super crisp! Can't remember the model number (had a '7' in it) but I do know they were cracking little boxes.

Just that the Celestion '7' had metal tweetipies

Rare Bird
24-02-2011, 10:46
Couldn't get the right values in MRs for where the SAs went, dude, otherwise there'd have been MRs fitted throughout :)



Ah right..looking at the crossover pic you posted i thought straight away the Solen inductors as a visual match replacement...

Beobloke
24-02-2011, 10:59
Oh, I'll be there, matey. Will I bump into the Sondex? ;)



No, sorry, no Sondex units this year as I'm doing a 1970s system. I'll follow this with an 80's system next year though, which will mean the Sondexes have a place alongside lots of B&O!

Oh, and as to these girly minimalist crossovers - pah! Attached is a piccy of the Leak 2075 crossover in mid-rebuild, with still a resistor and two capacitors missing!

Filterlab
24-02-2011, 11:10
Just that the Celestion '7' had metal tweetipies

It may have been a '4' then. :) They were in black ash, grey baffle, tweeter was a metal dome behind three or four horizontal bars and set in a grey moulding. Quite a large bass driver, wider than they were deep (which helps to age them a bit). Single wiring.

Marco
24-02-2011, 11:12
They look cracking Marco, I look forward to hearing them one day.

On your listening room and bearing in mind it's a dedicated listening room, I'm surprised you haven't you haven't covered the walls with wave absorption tiles, or at least hung something up like a throw. I can see that the roof cuts in at an angle which does help remove standing waves, but given your depth of investment have you considered spending on the room?

Great speaks BTW, I love Celestions - of all budgets. I grabbed a £10 pair of little Celestions from t'Bay a few years back. They had metal tweeters and they sounded super crisp! Can't remember the model number (had a '7' in it) but I do know they were cracking little boxes.

Cheers, dude.

You'd be welcome for a sesh-ette anytime. Perhaps come sometime in the summer with Esther and we could make a weekend of it and show you the sights of North Wales? :)

You're absolutely right regarding room treatment. I've done bugger all in that department, quite simply out of sheer laziness due to the fact that I'm getting a superb sound already. And when I'm in there, I just kick back and listen to music, without worrying about hi-fi stuff.

Living in an old house with massively thick walls and irregular-shaped rooms with beams, etc, I'm sure helps greatly with acoustics, although I'm certain that some room treatment would improve things even more.

I just have to motivate myself to be arsed! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco
24-02-2011, 11:18
Ah right..looking at the crossover pic you posted i thought straight away the Solen inductors as a visual match replacement...

Cool - that's an idea. Most of the inductors are decent quality air-core types, but I'm aware that further improvements could be made. What about the Goertz ones you recommended before, or Mundorf air-core foil coils?

However, I love how the Lockwoods sound now, so perhaps it's a case of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'? :)

Marco.

Marco
24-02-2011, 11:25
No, sorry, no Sondex units this year as I'm doing a 1970s system. I'll follow this with an 80's system next year though, which will mean the Sondexes have a place alongside lots of B&O!


No worries, Adam - I getcha! How did you find the S230, anyway? I have very fond memories of using one when I was a teenager in a system in my bedroom.


Oh, and as to these girly minimalist crossovers - pah! Attached is a piccy of the Leak 2075 crossover in mid-rebuild, with still a resistor and two capacitors missing!

Looks like quality! I think it's generally the case that modern electrical components, particularly capacitors, are superior to vintage ones, but there are a chosen few exceptions to the rule, such as those Monacors...

I've got Plessey power supply caps in my Copper amp, from the 1970s, and those are just lovely things :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
24-02-2011, 11:45
A word of 'ertfordshire-cum-Suffolk caution here Marco. The inductors are not, to my knowledge, in series with the drivers unless I'm very much mistaken (as I often am), so won't be directly in the signal path. The coils you must be concerned about are the hundreds of feet of tiny wire in the voice coils which ARE in series with the signal...

The caps on the boards you showed us pics of, don't usually age like metal can electrolytics do, but they certainly can be improved on. I just worry that the lower internal resistance (possibly) of current spec caps may alter other things you're trying to improve. Having said that, my mate Clive (a speaker designer of some notable worth for Elac, TDL and Musical Technology to name three companies he's worked and an owned - in the case of MT), tried replacing the electrolytics across but not in the signal path with some standard polyprops (he'd already done the others to good effect) and noted a definite sonic advantage in doing so, so replace away :)

The tweeters are the things to take most care of and if you ever see a very tatty pair of Ditton 44's come up cheap, I'd get them for the HF2000's alone (I think that's what they had in 'em). The 44's are a big-n-beefy good oldie too, so don't buy a good pair to cannibalise ;)

A note to Adam - Leak 2075's - WHY????????????????????????? :D

Marco
24-02-2011, 12:15
Hi Dave,


I just worry that the lower internal resistance (possibly) of current spec caps may alter other things you're trying to improve.


Could you elaborate on that a little, please? Churz! :)


Having said that, my mate Clive (a speaker designer of some notable worth for Elac, TDL and Musical Technology to name three companies he's worked and an owned - in the case of MT), tried replacing the electrolytics across but not in the signal path with some standard polyprops (he'd already done the others to good effect) and noted a definite sonic advantage in doing so, so replace away...


Cool. Did he do that with the 66's, or are we talking about other speakers?


The tweeters are the things to take most care of and if you ever see a very tatty pair of Ditton 44's come up cheap, I'd get them for the HF2000's alone (I think that's what they had in 'em). The 44's are a big-n-beefy good oldie too, so don't buy a good pair to cannibalise ;)


Good idea. That's something I'll definitely consider.

What you said further back though is so true - there is simply no need to play the Celestions stupidly loud, as they are so cleverly voiced that all the musical information you need is there at moderate levels, and low-level listening, in particular, is a joy.

You don't need to listen to the Lockwoods loudly either, for similar reasons, but the problem is it's so entertaining to do so - rather like accelerating in a Bentley; your nerves will give up long before the engine will! :eyebrows:

However, with the Celestions, I was up to nearly 4am this morning listening to music at just one click on the volume control of the Croft, and the room was still filled with sound, yet didn't disturb Del in bed, only a few feet away next door. Most modern speakers just don't do that, and sound distinctly congested at very low levels.

I can also do this with the Tannoys, but their bigger bass with certain tracks makes the sound they produce at low volumes somewhat more intrusive.

Marco.

Beobloke
24-02-2011, 12:34
No worries, Adam - I getcha! How did you find the S230, anyway?

Well, as of today my Sondex collection actually comprises an S230 amp, DE-1 phono stage and PCU1 passive preamp and I haven't had time to sit down and listen to any of 'em! Once Scalford is out of the way, I should have more time, hopefully. :rolleyes:



A note to Adam - Leak 2075's - WHY????????????????????????? :D

Because I read about them, decided I had to have a pair, bought a pair about 17 years ago, lived with them for 3 years and loved them, then sold them when the drivers started making funny noises and I knew of no-one who could repair them.
I regretted my decision as soon as I watched the new owner drive away with them and have been looking for a pair that aren't stupidly priced ever since. Luckily Haden Boardman's grand equipment clearout of 2010 came up trumps!

Marco
24-02-2011, 13:07
Nice collection, Adam. The only Sondex equipment I've heard is the S230, so it'll be interesting checking out the other stuff you have next year.

What I liked about the S230 was its minimalist approach - just a little box with a volume knob, balance control and few source selectors, but it sounded so very musical. The MM phono stage was a real gem, so the DE-1 should be a bit special! :)

Marco.

Rare Bird
24-02-2011, 13:10
It may have been a '4' then. :) They were in black ash, grey baffle, tweeter was a metal dome behind three or four horizontal bars and set in a grey moulding. Quite a large bass driver, wider than they were deep (which helps to age them a bit). Single wiring.

'DL4' you mean?

Rare Bird
24-02-2011, 13:17
Cool - that's an idea. Most of the inductors are decent quality air-core types, but I'm aware that further improvements could be made. What about the Goertz ones you recommended before, or Mundorf air-core foil coils?

They are good but you just can't shove any inductor in regardless of it being the correct value, watch yer DCR's :)...

Ali Tait
24-02-2011, 14:25
They are indeed, Ali. I've used them in a number of applications, and achieved great results. Hovland Music Caps are good in crossovers, too.

The best results I've ever heard with caps, though, were those SCR Teflon ones you recommended, which I fitted as coupling caps in the Croft. Man, what a difference those made! :eek: :)

Marco.

Aye, I'd say they are about the best caps I've heard so far. The AN coppers are very good too IMHO. I'd imagine the silvers are something special but I refuse to pay that much.

MartinT
24-02-2011, 14:25
They look fab, Marco. As I said earlier, I really liked them but haven't heard any in about 30 years. I look forward to hearing yours at some point.

And a nice new avatar - suits you, sir!

Marco
24-02-2011, 14:45
Cheers, Martin :)

They won't have changed since you last heard them, but the difference will be when you hear them on the end of a top-notch system, which I think would shock you...

The interesting thing is that they fit in the back of the car, so for a giggle, I might bring them down with me next time! :eyebrows:

Marco.

MartinT
25-02-2011, 09:10
As long as you don't expect me to move my current speakers...

Marco
25-02-2011, 09:53
Of course - that was the whole plan. I thought we could just pop them out in the garden for a bit whilst we wheel in the Celestions. It's not as if they're heavy or anything, is it? :lol:

Marco.

Rare Bird
26-02-2011, 20:01
No, sorry, no Sondex units this year as I'm doing a 1970s system.


Hi Adam
Any chance spilling the beanz as to whats in this 70's system cos looking at the spread sheet they aint anything worth justifying going for me! infact i'm seriously thinking about giving my tickets away.

Marco
26-02-2011, 20:08
Lol - I thought you'd be curious to hear the Celestions!

Also, the Scalford show is as much a social event, getting to meet folks from AoS and other forums, and having a laugh, as it is about hi-fi and music.

So don't be a boring twat, and make sure you come - the Marco taxi will be waiting for you! :cool:

Marco.

Rare Bird
26-02-2011, 20:21
Lol - I thought you'd be curious to hear the Celestions!



Be nice to hear em again, but a techy as a source ffks dude :lolsign:

Marco
26-02-2011, 20:40
Lol - it sounds bloody good, trust me, and we'll be playing CD, too, don't forget.

A highly modified Eikos CDP will be used for digital duties :cool:

Marco.

Rare Bird
26-02-2011, 20:42
No thanks. Can't you get nick to set up an open reel (& no DSOTM ffks) :lolsign:

Marco
26-02-2011, 20:56
I'm pretty sure he's bringing one, so if he is, it'll defo be part of the system :)

Marco.

Beechwoods
26-02-2011, 21:11
What would you like on it, Andr'e? I'm thinking of bringing my Nagra this time.

Barry
26-02-2011, 22:35
What would you like on it, Andr'e? I'm thinking of bringing my Nagra this time.

+1

How about playing them a tape of the Watersons? ;) Everybody knows that the human voice and a cappella singing is a critical test of any system - even one using Celestion 66s. :eyebrows:

Beechwoods
27-02-2011, 14:33
I'll take my Frost and Fire Tape! I must admit I'm putting together a comp of stuff I like but I'm really pleased with how it sounds on the Nagra. And it's an easy machine to carry about!

Marco
27-02-2011, 15:49
Excellent stuff, Nick - look forward to hearing it :)

Btw, what year was the Nagra made?

The Techy was first introduced in 1972, and the Dittons are from 1973, so it looks like the system's 1970s DNA will be a little stronger than a slap in foreskin with a red-hot teabag......! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Beechwoods
27-02-2011, 15:54
The IV-S was launched in 1971, but mine's a IV-S TC model (with timecode) and that model came out in 1984. Slide the timecode drawer away and it looks like it was born in the 70's!

Marco
27-02-2011, 16:00
Nae worries - that'll do... All we need now is some prog albums to play and then dress like Jason King! :eyebrows:

Will you have your moustache? ;)

Marco.

Beechwoods
27-02-2011, 16:03
Nah, I'm leaving my moustache at home :doh:

I'll bring my pornstar hairy chest though :eyebrows:

Rare Bird
27-02-2011, 16:35
What would you like on it, Andr'e? I'm thinking of bringing my Nagra this time.

Na worries Nick i'll not be there, gave my ticket numbers away last night.

Marco
28-02-2011, 01:44
Jeez, wot are you like! :doh:

Marco.

Beechwoods
28-02-2011, 09:13
Pressure's off then. I'll bring my Mariah Carey tapes :)

Marco
28-02-2011, 09:23
Lol - and now the sex god is otherwise engaged, the waitresses at Scalford Hall will collectively weep! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Beobloke
01-03-2011, 10:52
Hi Adam
Any chance spilling the beanz as to whats in this 70's system cos looking at the spread sheet they aint anything worth justifying going for me! infact i'm seriously thinking about giving my tickets away.

Seems like it's a bit late but -

Sony PS-B80 and Aiwa LP-3000 turntables
Pioneer SA-9800Mk2 amp
Technics RS-9900 cassette deck
Technics SH-9020 VU meter unit
Leak 2075 loudspeakers
Possibly an original Cambridge CD1 CD player complete with Quality Assurance Module. If not, then my Marantz CD94 again.

I'll also be bringing along the following turntables for anyone who wants to hear them -

Empire 598/Denon DL103
Technics SL-110/SME 3009/Shure M75ED
ADC Accutrac 4000
ADC Accutrac +6
Technics SL-1960
B&O Beogram 6000

Go on - grab those tickets back now. How can you resist?!

Alex_UK
01-03-2011, 11:29
Come on Andre, I was looking forward to meeting the legend in real life!

Marco
01-03-2011, 11:59
Yup, dude - it's not just about hi-fi. It's a social event too, and you're a popular and well-liked member of our community :)

Besides, if you don't come, Alex the stud will be left 'entertaining' all the waitresses himself, and his chat-up lines are WAAAAAAY too cheesy for even the biggest fan of fromage!! They have to be saved from that terrible fate somehow!!! :eek: :lol: :eyebrows:

Marco.

John
01-03-2011, 12:57
I was really looking forward to meeting you Andre

Bretto
31-05-2013, 21:27
Hey Marco! I just set up my newly acquired Ditto 66`S!!! Nothing but LOVE!!!!
Question? Should they be setup straight on my timber floor or should put something under Them???
I have a suspicion that these big girls matched with a little sub are creating to much vibration for my turntable?

The Grand Wazoo
31-05-2013, 21:32
Very short stands would be best, I'd think, Brett.
Surprised you think they need help in the bass.

Ali Tait
31-05-2013, 22:08
They tend to have much bigger rooms down under..

walpurgis
31-05-2013, 23:20
I have a suspicion that these big girls matched with a little sub are creating to much vibration for my turntable?

My god! Subs with Ditton 66s?

Exercise great caution, that much bass could create a wormhole and suck you into another galaxy. :)

The Grand Wazoo
31-05-2013, 23:24
....that much bass could create a wormhole and suck you into another galaxy. :)

....or be full of waffle due in part to being badly integrated, which just serves to set your floorboards off into a singing, ringing symphony of nastiness!

Just a guess.

Bretto
01-06-2013, 22:03
The sub is on very low.... I think I'm substituting the poor quality of my turn table..? Could someone suggest a quality TT that doesn't loose bass quality. I'm really needing help to get set up. I'm only interested in quality se and hand components.

southall-1998
01-06-2013, 22:14
The sub is on very low.... I think I'm substituting the poor quality of my turn table..? Could someone suggest a quality TT that doesn't loose bass quality. I'm really needing help to get set up. I'm only interested in quality se and hand components.

Townshend Rock ;)

walpurgis
01-06-2013, 22:15
Any good turntable properly set up and either firmly mounted or well isolated should do bass OK. Your bass issues may lie elsewhere. Cartridge? Amplifier? Cables? Room acoustics?