View Full Version : How to listen .........
or teaching your grandmother to suck eggs !
It may seem a bit basic but in my experience people tend to listen to hifi in two ways ...
the first ...like my wife ...listens in a holistic way ...ie to the whole of the music ...and will often not know when asked if there was even a vocalist involved. Though she does know what sound good and what 's bad ...we have often been to friends or partys ..and when she leaves will say ..."how bad was that sound system ...!"
The second way ..and I feel I listen this way... is to be able to isolate a thread of the music or an instrament from the whole . I'm able to still appreciate the whole to ..but I'm able to zoom in on a feature or aspect of the music .
Having spent the best part of the last ten years building testing and listening to cables [ic's,speaker and power]
its clear to me a large proportion of the people who say they can't hear the difference swapping a cable can make ..listen to music in the whole or like my wife.
don't get me wrong ...there is no right or wrong way to listen !
I've had a number of examples like this over the years, one that stands out was..I went to see a chap ...to help him setup a new pair of speakers ...and try some different speaker cables ....
so once we'd done the speaker thing I suggested a ic cable swap ...off the top of my head he was using one of the van de hul's the first [?] maybe ...anyway the one with the carbon fibre ....certainly to my ears it was doing something very strange to the leading edges of note ..via his avi pre and power.
He said don't bother as he could not tell the difference ...anyway we swapped and guess what ...he could not tell the difference .
Which was odd because I could ...there was no longer a strange warble on some notes ......
S o I asked him how he was listening ......he had never considered there were different ways of listening.
After swapping back to the original cable we played several tracks that I find most people can listen to the various threads of the music ..once he had the knack of following a particular thread , we swapped the carbon fibre jobbie out and inserted solid core silver twisted pair [no shielding] .... he was very surprised ....to the point of thinking I'd messed around with other things whilst he was'nt looking.
Once we put the original cable back ...he found he was unable to listen to it ....as I'd pointed out the strange effect it was having on certain notes. and that was all he coulld focus on !
So what was the track I used ...... I think most people know it .....
track two on DSOTM on the run
So if you have read this far .......try this
firstly listen out for the turbo prop aircraft taking off ....
then replay the track and see how early on can you first pick up the whistle of its engines in the music mix.
Where does it start and where does it taxi to and which way does it take off
Then latter on in the track listen to the running feet ...can you hear what type of surface is he running on ?
What this thread is not about is cables ....I just used that as an example ...
Its to do with how you listen .....are there otherways That I've not considered ?
I believe that if you listen to a piece of music in its entirety you listen at a superficial (hmmm, not the right word - maybe overview?) level. If you listen to one instrument it's more analytical. I remember hearing a lecture how we can only focus fully on relatively small frequency spectra at one time. If you're trying to be analytical then when listening for bass frequencies you won't be properly hearing what the treble sounds like.
Then there are vocals. Personally I hear vocals as an instrument. Others listen intently to the words. Probably I'm dyslexic....this makes the processing of sounds harder so hearing a tune and making sense of the words at the same time is not as easy as some would think. Rather like when dyslexics read a book out loud, they can read the words but don't pick up on the story. I digress, but there are all sort of factors at play here.
yes very intresting ...will need to think about what you have said ..but I'm inclined to agree
hope thats in line with what I've said !
I find your post very interesting, and while pondering your perspective I found I have one of my own.
Having owned so many systems over the years while chasing audio nirvana, I have formed an opinion that noting details vs listening to the whole is both involuntary and system specific…I’ll explain.
Numerous systems that I have assembled have been of the nature that would cause me to take note of details within the whole, one system may draw attention to bass instruments, another would be the best guitar system, still another would render vocals scary real…yet these same systems would leave me wanting something, something unidentified.
In the late 80’s I put together a system that was so detailed the listener could follow any instrument or vocal of their choosing. I would get feedback from Friends that my system allowed them to hear things in an album or CD that they had never heard there before…but again, this system left me wanting.
Hey, I’m the kind of person that would chase down the ideal at any cost; I purchased the Krell KSA-250 when it first hit the market, purchased Classe M-1000 monoblocks when no one else had heard of them, spent crazy money on everything EAD could build in digital front ends…and when the B&W 801 S3 came out – I had to have them – then modified the crap out of them.
That entire paragraph was intended only to evidence that my homework is complete…but all that gear equated to…something just not quite right. What I was looking for, or listening for, entirely without knowing it, wasn’t there. When I would sit for hours and listen to these systems, one system would be of the type that would cause me to be aware of certain “things” within the music, while another system would draw me into the whole performance (preferred), and yet when I wanted to focus on a detail it was not easy to follow.
The system I have today has taken me many years to assemble, predominantly because it required a bit of time travel within my own mind to remember and determine the most musical gear I have heard, and then of course once identified and purchased, some of the gear took serious time and money to have restored.
But today I listen to the “music”. I find myself sitting down with the intent to spend an hour listening, only to have the Wife bellow that I’ve been “down there” for the entire day. When I choose I can follow JPJ of Led Zeppelin on bass to my hearts content, I can single out Andrea Corr even when her Sisters chime in…but what I enjoy the most about this most recent system is that I get completely lost in the music…and only when I so choose do I take note of the details.
My 402 cents….
Seems to be a real problem amongst audiophiles; listening to music that is :lol:
Strange really given the whole purpose of a stereo is to listen to music. Maybe we should have classes to teach those ignorant music lovers and musicians how to appreciate music……..wait, silly me, I keep forgetting, it’s not about appreciating music, its about analyzing the kit!
Get over yourselves ffs :lolsign:
If your stereo makes listening to music this much of a problem you’ve got the wrong kit.
Vinyleyes
16-02-2011, 16:22
Yep ... I'm with all of this so far .... I guess an ideal sysytem would be detailed enough where one can when one desires ,, dive in and focus on any particular part or instrument of the performance .. but not detailed to the extent where one particular part would constantly draw one's attention to it .. I love to sit sometimes and just listen to the bass drum .. or indeed the bass lines .. then concentrate on the rythm guitar .. and it is fantastic to be able to do this .. BUT .. the performance on a whole when retreating from an individual facet of it has still got to have a certain magic .. and an ability to keep you listening. That's the bottom line .. finding a system that keeps you listening and involved in what we all love ... THE MUSIC ... :cool: ..........
and you can listen any way you want that satisfies that need ..... ;)
John,
I think you've got a real hang-up about this, you bang on about it at the slightest opportunity. This thread is mostly about how people listen to music, yes some of the explanations involve what some kit does or doesn't do but we are talking about ways of listening.
So, how do you listen? Can you appreciate an entire complex piece at once, do you focus on vocals, certain instruments? I believe that listening via a system in a room is very different to listening to say a basic radio. The basic radio gives you the fundamentals of a piece of music but misses out a lot too. So I think with a radio it is easy to listen to all that's on offer. A hi-fi system offers a lot more information and maybe sometimes it's too much to ask to have us take it all in at once (could be due to mood) so some of us zero on specific aspects - hopefully not always the same aspect.
On the whole tend to agree with John view unless you either developing, reviewing or purchasing.
I guess we all different and we get attracted to music for different reasons, generally for me its the organic whole, its about how it brings me closer to the music, but I know other people its different.
I do admit if I was to demo gear I be expecting to hear certain things but this is based on my own bias view of how I enjoy music and does not mean to say its right
In the end we end up with the system our ears and personal bias deserves
Maybe everyone subconsciously tunes into certain musical aspects, I can can believe that most sane people won't have analysed this! Just as with eating some highly flavoured and spiced food, you can't appreciate all the ingredients but some predominate and catch your attention. I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this but we must be filtering out some information so we can make sense of a music piece as a whole. I can imagine this is why a basic radio can sometimes be very enjoyable to listen to, it's not demanding too much of our brain to listen to it. However smart we think we are, there's only so much of the information hitting our senses that our brains can process in real-time.
Vinyleyes
16-02-2011, 17:09
To me there is nothing wrong in listening to a particular part of the performance if we so desire .. .. How else are we really to marvel at an intricate drum break .. or a stellar bass line ... if we do not follow it through .. And there is nothing wrong in analysing how well produced is that bass line or that cymbal crash ... as long as it is helping us to develop our systems to enable us to ENJOY the music more.
If we never listened to our systems with a critical ear sometimes then all of us would be stuck with the same kit for a lifetime .... and we certainly would not be on a forum to discuss it ... So we are ALL guilty of system analysis at some point ... The important part is to be aware of that and keep a balance between pure enjoyment .. and sometimes a critical ear for some fine tuning when something feels/sounds out of kilter ...
I like to jump in and listen to certain instruments sometimes .. and yes .. obviously you cannot then give other instruments the same attention ... that stands to reason ... but equally .. I like to drop back and take in the whole ... I think we all alternate like that to an extent especially for great vocals and solos ...
Yes my experience is often similar but sometimes the music will naturally draw me to certain parts of the whole but this is often just a natural flow process
I can have my general mood listening following my muse or the music where it takes me, and when I need I can have more anylitical listening part of me engaged
Okay Clive and anyone else who cares to read.
Imo music shouldn’t be an intellectual exercise unless you’re reading it or playing it.
I admit, I’ve never been an analyzer of music and I try not to do it with my stereo either unless I’m trying to assess a recent change.
Music, it’s for dancing to, for bringing out emotions, for enjoyment, not some dry analytical pastime.
It’s about sex and passion and rebellion.
And yes I do bang on about it because it’s a constant debate I have with a couple of friends who tend to have listening sessions and in there cases at least they might as well be listening to a Hi Fi test record. Why do I say this? Mainly because all they go on about is the quality of the recording or how their system isn’t doing an acceptable job at certain frequencies. My opinion, they don’t actually like much of the music they listen to; they enjoy the process and the fidelity, but the soul of the music just goes right over there heads.
I’m not saying contributors to this thread are doing the same, but we civilized westerners have a horrible habit of “doing it wrong” imo.
As an example, take the Western culture approach to dope smoking. A group of smokers get together, skin up like its some major ritual and then hammer themselves insensible.
Go to Asia and only the old men sit about smoking, the younger smokers have a couple of joints and then DO stuff, sport, sex, dancing, etc.
So, music I believe is a social activity and only technology has turned it into some solitary pastime.
The music I enjoy most is live, or playing with my mates. It’s a fun activity we share.
All over the world people make and listen to music in groups, often dancing and maybe singing along.
I have music on most of the time I’m at home, or I’ve got the sax out and I’m giving it some on that.
I listen in two modes to music reproduced on my stereo, concentration and casual.
Concentration usually means I’m sat down and relaxed and I listen as a whole. If a particular instrument grabs my attention I may follow that more than the sound bulk but in general I listen to the music, not particular instruments.
Casual means I’m doing other stuff; probably half dancing around the at the same time.
Maybe I’m doing it wrong, but somehow I think not.
Vinyleyes
16-02-2011, 18:06
or teaching your grandmother to suck eggs !
It may seem a bit basic but in my experience people tend to listen to hifi in two ways ...
the first ...like my wife ...listens in a holistic way ...ie to the whole of the music ...and will often not know when asked if there was even a vocalist involved. Though she does know what sound good and what 's bad ...we have often been to friends or partys ..and when she leaves will say ..."how bad was that sound system ...!"
The second way ..and I feel I listen this way... is to be able to isolate a thread of the music or an instrament from the whole . I'm able to still appreciate the whole to ..but I'm able to zoom in on a feature or aspect of the music .
Its to do with how you listen .....are there otherways That I've not considered ?
Hi Pete ..... have you listened to Roger Waters "Amused To Death" .. there is a phenomenal amount of detail there ... I only just got the 180 gm vinyl last time I was home and didn't have enough time to really get into it ... but it would be a great album for "selective" listening .. ;) ... Pretty good album too .. a little acknowledged masterpiece of his IMHO of course ... .. :cool: ....... and I cannot resist plugging in my Strat and trying to join in when I have it turned up to 11 .. :mental: .....
John,
I don't disagree with you. Sure there are bound to be people who obsess about their system, just as there are with cars (technology, 0-60 etc) vs a great road or track drive enjoyed for the holistic experience.
When something is a hobby, ie the hifi reproduction part of listening to music, then there are times to be analytical but for myself I hope these times are rare vs simply listening to music.
Maybe it's easier to talk about the technology than it is the emotion from a piece of music so that's what get talked about. I can remember recent musical experiences that really moved me but these are very personal and dependant on my mood so I tend not to talk about them. I will however generalise and then talk about the reasons why an album sounded so great, eg capturing a tremendous music event (maybe 50s / 60s jazz recordings vs manipulated sounds today). When I enjoy something I revel in it at the time and so that I can re-create this enjoyment I make sure I understand why I was enjoying it.
Hope this make some form of sense.
great replys ...keep em coming
I've not disagreed with anything yet .....and absolutly agree about sex passion ..emotion etc ..
but I took that as a given !
Ali Tait
17-02-2011, 09:45
For me it was never really about the kit and more about the music. I just found that kit I enjoyed more gave me a closer emotional connection to the music. That's what it's all about for me.
The Grand Wazoo
29-10-2012, 00:19
From the Grave
Some interesting points made in this thread, which I missed the first time around. I certainly subscribe to and practice 'zooming in' (nice analogy) on a part of the performance and listen to a particular instrument as well as listening to the whole.
It's nothing to do with hi-fi systems since I do it at classical concerts. I often find myself focussing on an individual player - maybe he or she is playing the key melody or is augmenting it in some way, or possibly it's an instrument the sound of which I particularly like, or maybe she's just pretty. It matters not, I zoom in and out all the time during the performance and do the same when playing the music at home (frequently concentrating on the same aspect). At other times, zooming in on a different part of the performance gives me a refreshingly different viewpoint.
Surely this is why playing music is so repeatable - always hearing something new?
A very interesting read and a great thread to dig up Chris :)
I am 100% in John's camp here (Welder) and pretty much approach my listening in the same way, minus the dancing! For me my big thing is live music and when listening to music at home, I don't think I ever listen to my gear anymore, as I love how it sounds. I listen to the lyrics and musical composition, the voice in particular especially if its female. I try to understand what the artist is saying, what is the meaning of this and why did they write it etc. When folk talk about the recording quality or say listen to this instrument or wow that sounds good with this amp, I must admit to being a little baffled, but then I don't really consider myself to be an audiophile, my mates do, but I just love music at the end of the day, my gear is nothing more than the transport.
I have to say I would never ever approach listening to music in the way the OP has described. There was a time (before AoS) that I listened to my gear, but that was because I didn't like how it sounded and I was always trying to improve it and enhance my enjoyment. I'm totally over that now thank goodness, which is a huge relief as it often drove me nuts and even stopped me listening to music for more than a few hours at a time. Mind you, I used to get a lot more sleep in those days!
I listen to my system in different ways depending on the source, the time of day, what else I might be doing at the time and what mood I'm in.
My system is in use for most of my waking time when I'm at home, and is used with different sources for different reasons. When listening to the radio, I will listen differently depending on whether listening to the news, or listening to radio plays, or listening to classical performances and 'Late Junction' on Radio3.
I do listen to 'background music' when I'm cooking, but that is the only time and I will choose suitable 'music to cook to' (!)
In general, I think I listen to music from an overall perspective, regardless if it is live (concerts etc.) or recorded - that is the overall sound, though a lyric line of a piece of playing will 'pop out' unexpectedly.
Rarely do I listen forensically or analytically - music is not meant to heard that way; it is meant to move mind, body and soul. If I do want to listen 'into' a piece I will use headphones, but that is not my usual modus operandi.
When trying out a new component I listen to the overall sound, I do not listen for changes; any changes there are, if they are important to me will be heard without listening for them whether I want to or not.
Referring to the OP's citation of DSOTM: yes - I can tell the surface on which running footsteps are made, as I can tell you the material out of which the soles of the shoes are made - and possibly where the recording was made.
Rarely do I listen forensically or analytically - music is not meant to heard that way; it is meant to move mind, body and soul.
Couldn't agree more.
Rarely do I listen forensically or analytically - music is not meant to heard that way; it is meant to move mind, body and soul.
I don't understand the difference. For me, I can listen to music I love any way I care to: the whole, or the detail. It will always lead to moving the mind, body and soul.
I don't understand the difference. For me, I can listen to music I love any way I care to: the whole, or the detail. It will always lead to moving the mind, body and soul.
The operative word is 'rarely'. If I choose to concentrate (that is listen analytically) on parts, say the base line, or concentrate on the vocals, I tend to loose track of what else is going on. As such, I find the music doesn't move me as much as it would if I listened to it "whole".
We all listen differently, so what works for you may not work for me. :)
We all listen differently, so what works for you may not work for me. :)
Vive la difference! :)
Vive la difference! :)
Absolument mon ami.
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