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Marco
01-02-2008, 23:38
Hullabaloos seem to be the flavour of the month, and not long after the ‘AudioWorks affair’ we now have ‘Naimgate’.

At the recent Sound & Vision Manchester hi-fi show, Naim audio, apart from releasing their brand new (and excellent) phono stage, the Superline, which I will be mentioning separately along with the rest of the system they demonstrated when I review the show itself shortly, also had the 'audacity' (yes that’s how some view it!) to release a brand new power cable complete with specially designed 13A mains plug and IEC connector.

Howls of derision are occurring on other forums where dyed-in-the-wool ‘Naimees’, brought up in the true ‘flat-earth’ tradition, are accusing Naim of selling their souls to the devil (although one particular ‘devil’, somewhat uninitiated in matters of hi-fi, seems would no sooner buy the new power cable than he would embrace Creationism ;)). These guys are crying that Naim were once the bastions of non-tweakery – the company never used to believe in ‘fancy’ cables or interconnect leads, as the cables provided were simple, ‘adequate’ for the job, and included with equipment.

The last bit of course is true, although Naim have always been aware of the importance of good quality cables designed to get the most from their equipment - indeed much time and effort is spent testing the cables that customers are supplied with. These are auditioned by ear and hand selected for best performance. The rest of the moaning above by the faithful is merely poor factual awareness clouded in nostalgia.

Well time has moved on – Naim believe they are a progressive minded company and have now taken a step further in their product development. Following on from the success of the Hi-line interconnect lead they have now designed their own brand new power cable. So to the faithful I say dry your eyes and wake up to the new world, this is 2008 not 1998!

Steve and me were both present at one of the closed demo sessions Naim held throughout the Sunday of the show and were treated to a demonstration by Mark from Naim who was most informative and knowledgeable throughout. I’m not going to enter into great detail describing the minutiae of what I heard as that is not particularly relevant to the point I’m making. However suffice to say that substituting the new power cable for the ‘Hydra’ flying lead powering the PSU for the CDS555 CDP brought about a significant and to me easily heard improvement originating I suspect from a perceived reduction in the noise floor of the system demonstrated, which I’m almost certain under the right circumstances could be measured.

So why could this new power lead be better than the old one and thus considered a viable upgrade?

Many will of course say that mains cable is mains cable, and in an electrical sense this is certainly true, however those bleating about Naim ‘selling out’ and embracing the sensibilities of the ‘foo-foo’ merchants are concentrating on one area: the cable itself and forgetting where most of the R&D has been undertaken – in the design of the mains plug and IEC connector. A power cable is not just a length of wire! Having seen both of these items I can confirm that it’s obvious a lot of work has gone into their design, particularly with regard to decoupling, and no doubt some of this would have been expensive to undertake, especially gaining the required safety approval certificate from the authorities. Both items are also quite heavy and made from high quality materials – this is obviously no bog standard mass-produced ‘kettle lead’.

It has long been my opinion that the plugs and connectors are more important on a cable (mains lead or interconnect) than the wire itself. Of particular importance I feel is the integrity of the mechanical connection presented to the equipment or wall socket/power strip and how microphonic is the whole assembly, including that of the sockets on the equipment. I believe that, similar to with equipment supports, vibration, both source-derived at plugs and sockets, and airborne, pollutes the musical signal so therefore must be prevented from entering the chain at source. All this is of course entirely subjective but I feel that it could be measured with the right apparatus. Naim’s solution is to decouple the plugs from their relevant sockets as far as possible and judging purely by listening to the results achieved it seems to be very effective.

If we continue to concentrate on the effect of the plugs and IEC connectors used and the integrity of the mechanical connection on the cable, as well as the (‘harmful’) transferral of vibration described above, as being largely, or almost entirely, responsible for why some power cables might sound different from each other (although I personally think there’s a little bit more to it than that) and Naim have created an effective solution to that problem, then why shouldn’t their new power cable be an upgrade from the bog standard power cables they used before which address none of those issues?

I’m not saying that this is indisputably the case – I’m certainly not in a position to do so – but it seems to me like a reasonable theory and one that should be provable if someone could come up with the right measurements to facilitate meaningful experiments. Certainly in a subjective sense what I heard at the show was significant enough to suggest that the upgrade obtained by changing to the new power lead is indeed very worthwhile.

Looking briefly at the wire itself used, and yes it’s a totally different type to what was used before on the old power cables, it has a woven construction, which is a process known to help remove the effects of RFI and EMI mains-borne interference. It is also of a heavier gauge and amperage rating to the old wire used in the previous power cables, which together in itself could be sufficient reason why the new power cables improve sound quality so significantly. I don’t think this aspect of their design should be overlooked. One last thing to consider is it's a well known fact that lowering the impedance on the mains supply always results in improved sound quality. Poor connections between plugs and sockets has the effect of raising the impedance, so in the case of Naim's new power cable, it could be that the decoupling system used has the simple effect of ensuring a better connection and thus lowers the impedance on the mains 'signal' supplied to the equipment. Again, this effect should be measurable.

And so to the price…

There is of course a big hoo-hah amongst the faithful regarding the cost of these new leads - £395 each, but consider this: what if I said that the improvement gained was as significant and worthwhile as, say, adding a Supercap, and I’ve got plenty of experience of using Naim equipment to know what I’m taking about by making that statement, would it be considered expensive then? I can tell you that the difference the new power cable made for example when added to the CDS555’s PSU was nearly as significant as Mark changing from driving the SL2 speakers passively to actively – and no I’m not kidding. Also £395 for an obviously heavily researched and well-designed and built product is not expensive when compared to similar offerings from established cable specialists such as Siltech, Transparent, Nordost, etc. Indeed in comparison to power cables offered from some of those manufacturers Naim’s new power cable is a veritable bargain!

I suppose if I had to select which upgrade to choose and someone else was paying for it then I would go for the active speaker upgrade demonstrated at the show, but on a sound-per-pound basis the new power cable wins easily. I would go as far to say that if I still used a Naim system I’d spend the money first on upgrading my existing power cables throughout before I considered a component upgrade, such are the fundamental improvements the new power cables bring to the presentation of a Naim system and the more effective way music is communicated and enjoyed.

Some food for thought perhaps for the cynics and old diehards to consider elsewhere…

Other opinions on this appreciated!

Marco.

Vinyl Grinder
02-02-2008, 01:18
I remember changing from Naim bog standard years ago to Chord company cable, noticing a small improvement,not much but worth the small outlay.But £395.00 seems a hell of a lot of cash for mains cable regardless of how much research has gone into the initial design if anything really new.I for one would everytime opt for the Kimber 'Reference powerkord' .If i was going to splash out for new, the Kimber @ £125.00 metre length would be it, has Teflon coated hyperpure conductors..woven to combat RFI the same..MK 'toughplug' & wattgate IEC (cryogenically treated)...All other Kimber interconnects for the Naim sound like a million dollars, i don't see why Kimbers mains should'nt sound as good at a fraction of the price Naim are asking.. I bet the Naims would sound no better.But if you must have a Naim badge it might well sound the best way..

Of course i've not seen nor heard so can't really judge, this is just my own personal view of the situation..

Marco
02-02-2008, 10:49
Andr'e,

I hear what you're saying about cost - £395 is indeed a lot of money, but having seen the power lead in the flesh I don't doubt that a significant amount of R&D has gone into the design, not to mention the expense of obtaining the relevant safety certificate to enable them to sell the lead not only in the UK, but also into Europe and the US, which don't forget, all use different types of mains connectors, so of course this adds to the cost, too. People tend to forget about this. The retail price of any piece of hi-fi equipment reflects many things, not just the cost of materials.

I do rate some of the Kimber cables that are sold by Russ Andrews. Indeed he largely pioneered the use of high quality aftermarket mains leads in the UK, and introduced some innovative ideas to the market, which many have since copied. His 'entry-level' cables in my experience offer excellent performance and value for money, but some of his more expensive offerings are off the pace compared to those from more individually specialist cable manufacturers such as Siltech, Transparent, Chord, Stereovox, VDH, to name but a few.

In a Naim system (since this thread is after all about Naim) I would tend not to use any other power cable than their own as it will have been designed to maximise the performance of their equipment. Like you say, you haven't heard their new power cable so it's difficult for you to appreciate its capabilities in the way that I am able to, or indeed anyone else who heard its effect at the show demonstration. In terms of sound-per-pound I think it's a fantastic upgrade for all Naim users.

Marco.

Filterlab
02-02-2008, 11:02
I can certainly comment on a change of mains cables for an increase in quality - the Audioworks demo proved that as did me weaving my own litz cables a year or so ago. Any tweak can make a difference, whether it is an improvement or not lies at the door or the listener, but I do think improvements can be had in this area.

However, £395 is a HUGE amount of money for a mains cable and whether the improvement is £395 worth is another matter. That amount of dosh could pay for speaker stands or speaker cable or interconnects (or in some cases all three) which would make a far bigger difference. Also my mains cables cost about £7 each to make, ok so they took a little time, but they improved my system no end.

Are Naim users simply paying for the cables to have Naim written on them? I don't doubt that they do improve things as many tweaks do, but surely unless everything else in the system is perfect the money could be better spent further down the chain - i.e. greater yield of improvement per pound spent.

I guess this is similar to the whole 'Keel' thing. :eek:

Marco
02-02-2008, 12:12
However, £395 is a HUGE amount of money for a mains cable and whether the improvement is £395 worth is another matter. That amount of dosh could pay for speaker stands or speaker cable or interconnects (or in some cases all three) which would make a far bigger difference.


Rob, if you think £395 is a lot for a mains cable it's a good job you don't know how much I've spent on the mains cables throughout my system, not to mention the interconnects and speaker cable :eek:

I'm sure Steve would also make a similar comment about the cables in use in his system ;)

Of course you're right, £395 *is* a lot of money, but you can pay much more than that and not get the performance lift that Naim's new power cable offers - that's the point I was making. You really had to be there and hear its effect in the context of the demo system to appreciate the sound-per-pound value. That's why I made the comment I did about the Supercap, and indeed what was heard with when the speakers were made to go active.


Are Naim users simply paying for the cables to have Naim written on them?


No doubt some will, such is the nature of the brand's prestige value these days and the kudos it would give to those posting on the Naim forum... However, there are just as many Naim users who would buy it for the performance upgrade and how fundamentally better it allows their Naim gear to play music.


I don't doubt that they do improve things as many tweaks do, but surely unless everything else in the system is perfect the money could be better spent further down the chain - i.e. greater yield of improvement per pound spent.


I would argue that the mains is the 'source' (since what we're hearing through our speakers is effectively modulated mains - fact) so any improvements made in this area fundamentally effect the performance and sound of the rest of the system.

That view is certainly borne out by experience, and I've got a fair bit of it experimenting over the years with how the mains supply affects the performance of a hi-fi system. Much of it has been debated at length on hi-fi forums, often creating plenty of 'entertainment' along the way ;)


I guess this is similar to the whole 'Keel' thing


That's a different ball game, I feel.

Marco.

P.S Have you read the discussion about Naim's new power cable on Pink Fish?

Filterlab
02-02-2008, 12:27
P.S Have you read the discussion about Naim's new power cable on Pink Fish?

Yes, and I'm in the same boat as Phil (Eden):



Hummmm - IEC at one end, 3 pin plug at other end. £490 thank you very much multiplied by all those lovely Naim boxes - as I said on the Naim forum.
I think the Keel marketing man has a new job in Salisbury
Phil



:D

Remember, I make my own mains cables (which improve things very well) and I know how much components cost - pennies, even very expensive wire is pennies. Naim are certainly not going to be paying mega prices for their supplies so whilst I maintain that the cable could make a difference (and it has to really to maintain Naim's credibility) I just can't see how the price can be justified.

Filterlab
02-02-2008, 12:30
Ok, so I know that they have to make a profit and all that advertising has to be paid for, but that's why the cost is so high. How much would it cost to buy the components and make it oneself?

Marco
02-02-2008, 12:30
Pity Phil got the price so wrong! ;)

When you venture north to Welsh sheepy land in the near future, bring your mains leads with you and we'll conduct a little experiment.

Marco.

Filterlab
02-02-2008, 12:32
Pity he's got the price so wrong! ;)

When you venture north to Welsh sheepy land in the near future, bring your mains leads with you and we'll conduct a little experiment.

Marco.

Again, I'm not saying that there is no difference to be had (I know that cables make a difference otherwise I wouldn't sit down for hours and weave them with aching fingers) but whether it's £395 or £490 or whatever, there's no way on earth they can add that much value to a system.

It's the badge, same as the Keel.

Filterlab
02-02-2008, 12:36
Oh, and AVI make a really good point:


Has anyone asked their electricity supply company if they think the ninety nine point nine percent of the cable they are supplying is up to it?

Good question.

Marco
02-02-2008, 12:40
I know how much components cost - pennies, even very expensive wire is pennies. Naim are certainly not going to be paying mega prices for their supplies so whilst I maintain that the cable could make a difference (and it has to really to maintain Naim's credibility) I just can't see how the price can be justified.


Dude, I think you might need to read my post again. I've pretty much covered this.

Also, remember that the leads you've made are for personal use and not for retail to the general public, with all the cost and complications that entails. Again I have already covered this. How much do you think it would cost you if you had to pay for all that?

The mistake people are making is comparing how much a D.I.Y project costs buying parts from Maplins against a professional product that has to pass various levels of scrutiny and quality control before it reaches the marketplace.

In the meantime, for your entertainment, Google "Transparent Reference power cable", which is what I use, and see how much they cost :p

Marco.

Marco
02-02-2008, 12:46
Oh, and AVI make a really good point:

"Has anyone asked their electricity supply company if they think the ninety nine point nine percent of the cable they are supplying is up to it?"

Good question.


Perhaps Ash would enter the debate and offer that point to support his argument in more detail? :)

I have my thoughts on the matter based on my own listening experience.

Marco.

Marco
02-02-2008, 12:58
Again, I'm not saying that there is no difference to be had (I know that cables make a difference otherwise I wouldn't sit down for hours and weave them with aching fingers)


I don't doubt that the cables you've made are good, and effective, too - more so than cheap kettle leads.

What I'm saying however is for you to compare your home-made leads to what I use and see whether in your opinion the difference in price is justified, and indeed to hear for yourself exactly what that difference is ;)

We'll spend about 10 minutes doing that and then go to the pub :p

Only kidding... (perhaps) {snigger}

Marco.

Filterlab
02-02-2008, 12:58
Indeed, but even with advertising, R&D and testing and approval costs, you're surely not going to say that these cables make an amount of difference worth that level of money. For £400 I'd want an enormous improvement, and I mean enormous! More to the point if these cables are so good and make such a vast difference, why has it taken Naim so long to produce some serious upgrade cables? The concept has been around for years and yet they've always rubbished it as nonsense using phrases such as "if it's the best, why are we not using it?" etc etc.

My opinion (which you said would be appreciated) is that Naim have realised what consumers are spending money on and jumped on the bandwagon despite going against their long held beliefs. Whether it's to make more money (which of course is what a company is there for) or to give their customers another way to upgrade is their prerogative.

It's also worth bearing in mind that one of the finest and most articulate systems we heard at the show was Robson's computer based one using bog standard power cables and wall-wart PSUs (and a £5 USB cable) - the system that destroyed the dCS Scarlatti system and (for my ears) the system Audioworks were demonstrating. Again there was an improvement to the Audioworks demo system when the cable were changed, but it still didn't sound as good as the Robson system.

Steve Toy
02-02-2008, 13:09
Naim do tend to be a bit expensive for most things in my view. However a comparison between their £395 lead, Rob's home made leads, my £200 Music Works Recoil, £100 Plus Leads and even the Kimber ones at £125 would be interesting.


Oh, and AVI make a really good point:

Quote:
Has anyone asked their electricity supply company if they think the ninety nine point nine percent of the cable they are supplying is up to it?
Good question.


I don't think this really supports your argument unless you are a cable sceptic anyway.

Siltech do have an interesting point to make about this (I'll add the link when I've found it) and it has something to do with microphony and RFI generated in close proximity to your kit, i.e: it's the last metre of wire that really counts as it's the closes to many sources of noise be it airborne RFI, electrical borne noise or mechanical interactions (hence the damping seen in the Recoil lead and the decoupling in the Naim one at the plug wrt the latter).

Different components do interact with each other to a detrimental effect and this is why we:

a) put them in different boxes

b) keep those boxes apart

c) support and isolate those boxes as best we can

d) keep the electrical and signal paths to them and between them as pure as is possible.

The biggest culprit for signal corruption would therefore seem to be the other boxes in your system. Some advocate separate spur arrangements for each component to address this very issue.

Marco
02-02-2008, 13:13
And not forgetting my humble little kettle lead, too ;)

Rob, I'll get to your excellent post above later. It raises many points that require answering in detail.

Right now, I gotta go do some shopping! :)

Marco.

Marco
02-02-2008, 16:13
Good post above, Steve. I'll get to it along with Rob's later.

Meanwhile, you were also at the demo of Naim's new power lead. What were your observations?

I seem to remember you were quite impresssed.

Marco.

Steve Toy
02-02-2008, 16:22
I was very impressed. If you could remind me of the name of the artist, when he began singing with the new lead there was ambient and reverb info behind his voice as well as greater inflection in his voice. Going back to the standard lead arrangement this extra info was lost. I'm failrly confident that in blind testing I'd get it right 20/20.

Mike Reed
02-02-2008, 17:11
MARCO, It's a pity you didn't contribute (I assume) to the ridiculous 30 plus pages of pro and anti Naim vitriol, not to mention the usual bickering, that the PFM thread produced.

I did put forward that the proof will be in the pudding, so to speak; likewise did my Naim-owning friend. An equable and logical approach didn't seem to cut the mustard in that frenzied, repetitive, overlong and largely ill-phrased thread, however.

I have R/A Reference powercords throughout; longish lengths, too, but I don't use the plugs as everything is hard-wired.

It would seem from your observation, Marco, that neither my friend nor I (nor others in a similar situation) are likely to buy what may well be a superb Naim power lead and then chop the plug off!

R/A's MK plugs are nothing special, and their removal is no loss to the effectiveness of their cables. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Their new phono stage, on the other hand, is something I'd be very interested in. Any views/reports/reviews/price/whatever?

Steve Toy
02-02-2008, 17:33
MARCO, It's a pity you didn't contribute (I assume) to the ridiculous 30 plus pages of pro and anti Naim vitriol, not to mention the usual bickering, that the PFM thread produced.


No he didn't and neither did I. There really is no point in talking to some of the boneheads in there.

WikiBoy
02-02-2008, 21:09
I will give you a free upgrade over the Naim power lead. Drill a hole in the back panel and insert a grommet. Cut off IEC plug and strip cable. Put cable through grommet and solder direct to the mains switch.

IEC plugs and sockets of any ilk are horrible things, even good old Bulgin bakelites are better.

Steve Toy
02-02-2008, 21:16
Better in what way?

WikiBoy
02-02-2008, 23:26
Better in what way?

Because I *hear* it as better having done it, but not with Naim amps, but there is absolutely no reason why they should be any different.

Lowrider
03-02-2008, 08:47
Power leads usually do make a significant difference in the sound, as do all cables, and I do replace all in my systems, including TV and Satellite box...

I did try the realy expensive ones, they sound different, but, for my taste, never found one significantely better that VDH Mainsstream, particularly on players, where they usually make the largest perceived difference...

I use the VDH or less costly power leads, depending on the equipment...

Mr Ed
03-02-2008, 11:47
I will give you a free upgrade over the Naim power lead. Drill a hole in the back panel and insert a grommet. Cut off IEC plug and strip cable. Put cable through grommet and solder direct to the mains switch.

IEC plugs and sockets of any ilk are horrible things, even good old Bulgin bakelites are better.

I believe (stand to be corrected, of course), that once a piece of kit has a requirement for juice above a certain point, then hard wired leads are not acceptable from an electrical safety viewpoint. Hence, Naim CD3, Nait 3 etc had hard wired leads, but as things moved up the chain, then IECs became mandatory. I can't think of any piece of serious kit that doesn't use an IEC and I doubt that it's because it's the best way of doing things.

Ed.

Ashley James
03-02-2008, 12:08
If anyone pays more than £4.00 for a mains cable - he needs help.

It's high time all this cable nonsense, including phono and speaker cables, was debunked, there's absolutely no science in it whatsoever and no one could prove there was.

If you want better sound, remember easily your ears are fooled, not just by anticipation but by a subconscious process of transcoding the row made by so many hi fi systems into something "musically involving"

The mere fact that Apple are moving toward their 120 millionth iPod sold ought to be a wake up call.

Has anyone considered how good a PS3 and decent Active speakers might sound and how it would compare with a Naim system complete with new mains cable?

There is a reason why so many are able to buy second hand and from Ebay and it's because they are deserting hi fi, they are fed up with wasting a fortune on "upgrades" that don't improve the sound or may even make it worse!

Discuss that lot rationally!!!!!!!!!

Lowrider
03-02-2008, 12:20
Stereo MIC all over again... I feel banning in the air... :rolleyes:

Mr Ed
03-02-2008, 12:25
The mere fact that Apple are moving toward their 120 millionth iPod sold ought to be a wake up call.


What have iPods got to do with music? :rolleyes:

Still, 120 million lemmings can't all be wrong, I suppose. :confused:

Ed.

Steve Toy
03-02-2008, 12:40
Ashley,

I don't think anyone really wants another circular subjectivist/objectivist debate here that's been done to death elsewhere. The ethos of this site is basically one of trusting your ears. People who are sufficiently discerning are capable of allowing for potential expectation bias (one which cuts both ways btw)

Aftermarket power leads do make a difference and that difference isn't necessarily an improvement. I can think of at least one example that is actually worse in a musical reproduction sense than a very basic lead you'd use to power your computer.

Microphony, RFI and other sources of noise being added to the signal can all be addressed by paying attention to that very last metre or so of wire.


Still, 120 million lemmings can't all be wrong, I suppose.

Indeed. There is the mass market throwaway music commodity and there is The Art of Sound.

WikiBoy
03-02-2008, 15:39
I believe (stand to be corrected, of course), that once a piece of kit has a requirement for juice above a certain point, then hard wired leads are not acceptable from an electrical safety viewpoint. Hence, Naim CD3, Nait 3 etc had hard wired leads, but as things moved up the chain, then IECs became mandatory. I can't think of any piece of serious kit that doesn't use an IEC and I doubt that it's because it's the best way of doing things.

Ed.

There is nothing safer than a fixed mains lead and it breaks no regulations.

I can only presume one reason manufacturers do it is so they or others can sell you expensive add on upgrades. There are also manufacturing and packing considerations, and now also it is required to sell equipment with a wired up mains lead. That means fixed leads would mean different production for Shuko and 13 amp, where as with IEC you just swop the lead. And IEC has become the standard, however like anything to do with hi-fi there is only one thing better than the best component money can buy and that is no component, so the best IEC plug and socket is no IEC plug and socket.

Regarding the latter post that cables make no difference I am afraid that is nonsense. *The* most important consideration in Hi-Fi design is interface, internally within products and externally. Problem is there is little understanding. Example - an amplifier - surely one thing - wrong! it is at least three amplifiers (gain stages) and each has its own interface and its own requirements. So feed it all with one design of power supply, one design of earth path, and you are making compromises. Same with cables, simple cable inductance capacitance and resistance when seen in conjunction with output and input impedance either side of it has definite sonic influence. Even when you don't get involved in the more controversial sonic aspects such as dielectric and core material, run/burn in, directionality etc. BUT without doubt the biggest source of cable differences is construction, as with twisting braiding or parallel. Litz and Goertz construction techniques IMO are one of the biggest aborations to inflict the hi-fi industry. Deliberately distorting the sound!

Marco
03-02-2008, 19:10
Wow, some very interesting replies guys.

I doubt that I'll get a chance to contribute much this evening as I'm currently auditioning what is an absolutely MAJOR valve amplifier discovery. This thing is truly amazing and is liable to cause a major re-think amongst many audiophiles... But more on that later ;)

I'm actually really enjoying Ashley's contributions - he's different (and in a good sense!) I know where you're coming from Steve, but Ashley is polite even though his views are different to the 'norm' for the forum. Bring it on, I say... :)

Antonio, I think you'll find that Ashley is nothing like Stereo Mike. Bear with him, and give as good as you get! Your point of view is equally as valid as his :cool:

Ok, off to listen to some more tunes. I may be some time...!

Play nice.

Marco.

Lowrider
03-02-2008, 19:18
This is absolutely MAJOR valve amplifier discovery... ;)

http://www.melorib.com/data/Yamamoto.jpg

sastusbulbas
03-02-2008, 20:00
.

Pierre De Grenoble
03-02-2008, 23:38
What have iPods got to do with music? :rolleyes:

Still, 120 million lemmings can't all be wrong, I suppose. :confused:

Ed.


120 million ipods have a shed load to do with music.... I use one at work all the time (tho don't tell the Health & Safety;)) is it Hi end Hi fi, no it isn't, but IT IS SUPERB quality music replay on the hoof, yes it surely is..

If you haven't tried an Ipod and a half tidy set of ear buds, might I humbly suggest you do so, and then you might stop to consider that 80 gb Ipod ( stores 1800 yes 1800 CD albums)and £40 ear buds totals approx £200/£220.

compare this cost to the price of one naim mains lead/plug...:eek:

Vinyl Grinder
04-02-2008, 01:36
For the record, I use Russ Andrews power Chords, plus some Sonic Link/Black Rhodium oldies?


Funny that, i bought a couple of bits er gear off flea bay last year, when they arrived there was a couple of interconnects thrown in.I had my system fully wired with Kimber '8TC',Power Kords & Kimber 'PSB-J.'KC-1' on tonearm (Yep i was in the Russ andrews club years ago before the sales crap went to his head)..These freebie interconnects were Sonic Link 'Violet'! in comparison to the 'PSB-J' the violets are equally as good.


Anyway back to the original topic..

Steve Toy
04-02-2008, 03:43
My wife's iPod and earbuds sounds ok but it doesn't compare with the CD player + Rega Ear + Sennheiser HD600 combination that in turn doesn't compare with the amps and speakers out of the CD player.

Lowrider
04-02-2008, 06:03
There are even more millions of car sound systems, that doesnt mean we have to replace our hifi with an Alpine system, or does it... :confused:

Marco
04-02-2008, 07:00
If anyone pays more than £4.00 for a mains cable - he needs help.


Better get me 'seen to' A.S.A.P then, Ash :p

For spending £650 what do you suggest a psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, or just immediate certification?

Marco.

Marco
04-02-2008, 07:51
MARCO, It's a pity you didn't contribute (I assume) to the ridiculous 30 plus pages of pro and anti Naim vitriol, not to mention the usual bickering, that the PFM thread produced.

I did put forward that the proof will be in the pudding, so to speak; likewise did my Naim-owning friend. An equable and logical approach didn't seem to cut the mustard in that frenzied, repetitive, overlong and largely ill-phrased thread, however.

I have R/A Reference powercords throughout; longish lengths, too, but I don't use the plugs as everything is hard-wired.

It would seem from your observation, Marco, that neither my friend nor I (nor others in a similar situation) are likely to buy what may well be a superb Naim power lead and then chop the plug off!

R/A's MK plugs are nothing special, and their removal is no loss to the effectiveness of their cables. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Their new phono stage, on the other hand, is something I'd be very interested in. Any views/reports/reviews/price/whatever?


Hi Mike,

First of all, no, I didn't contribute to the (now) locked thread on PFM, as I am not a member there. I had the sole honour of being pre-banned before the forum got up and running ;)

I won't make any further comments on the content of that thread apart from stating that we would not allow the same old repetitive arguments, from the same old people, to take place here.

I'm also of the view that no plug is the best plug, as I use a hard-wired mains set-up myself (you won't believe the lengths I've went to!) however I would always warn anyone about the safety aspects attached to this. People do so at their own risk.

Regarding your question, if you're hard-wiring and own a Naim system, in my opinion you would still get significant improvement by upgrading to the new leads simply from the decoupling process at the IEC end and from the cable itself with its woven construction (helping to filter out RFI and EMI) and higher amperage rating - the latter factor being especially relevant with power amps. However, the value for money aspect then is of course duly compromised!!

One quick point about that, though... I asked Mark from Naim if they were planning to release a 'Hydra' using the new leads and he didn't rule it out. In that scenario there would only be one 13A plug needed (with 'x' amount of flying leads attached) so therefore price should be substantially reduced as it appears most of the cost of the new power cable is in the plugs used and their decoupling system, the R&D involved in the design (and of course obtaining the relevant British safety standards certificate, etc). The wire itself, although woven and of good quality, is nothing particularly special.

Regarding Naim's new phono stage, it is very good and a substantial upgrade from a Prefix or a Stageline in the context of a Naim system. However outside of that it is perhaps a different matter. There are a myriad of phono stages on the market now and some of them, particularly those using valves, are excellent. I'll be writing a separate review of the phono stage and the rest of the Naim system I heard at the show as soon, including replying to some excellent posts in this thread as soon as I get the time to do so :)

Marco.

Marco
04-02-2008, 09:06
Hi Richard,


I will give you a free upgrade over the Naim power lead. Drill a hole in the back panel and insert a grommet. Cut off IEC plug and strip cable. Put cable through grommet and solder direct to the mains switch.

IEC plugs and sockets of any ilk are horrible things, even good old Bulgin bakelites are better.


I agree with this concept, but I wouldn't advise anyone carrying it out unless their D.I.Y skills were suitably competent. Not that this modification is difficult to do (far from it) but any modifications where the mains supply is involved requires approach with due care. And by doing this you of course seriously devalue your equipment, if it was bought from new or has any sort of reasonable monetary value.

The way to look at plugs, sockets, fuses and cables in the context of a hi-fi system is that they're a necessary evil - none can (or do) enhance performance. The better ones degrade the signal less, that's all.

Keeping all contacts throughout your system clean and free from dirt or corrosion is very important and something that in my experience is done by very few people. Plugs on interconnects for example get seriously dirty through time. It always amazes me the difference it makes spending half an hour or so every few months cleaning all my plugs and connections with some Isopropyl alcohol and cotton wool buds.

How many here I wonder give their system a 6 or 12 monthly 'check up'? Hi-fi systems, just like many other things, require regular 'servicing' to keep performing at their best!

Marco.

Mike Reed
04-02-2008, 19:15
thanks, Marco, but EACH of my pieces is hard-wired to a separate 10mm cable. I really couldn't regress to plugs and hydras, regardless of the efficacy of the new Naim cable.

I could go on about the merits of dedicated mains and all that that entails, but there are others who are even more evangelistic about this upgrade approach.

Marco
04-02-2008, 20:20
LOL, Mike. My recommendation wasn't aimed at you. I know you're one of 'Roy's boys' ;)

There's nothing wrong with that, btw. I know Roy very well and respect the work he does (with unbounded enthusiasm!) I've adopted many of his ideas into my mains set-up, with a few 'adjustments' here and there.

I've asked him to come and join the forum, but I know he's pretty busy.

Marco.

Mike Reed
05-02-2008, 19:26
MARCO,

Small world, and an interesting category I've been filed under. I've known RKR well over 20 years now, but had full dedicated mains then, and long before Roy began carrying the torch. Mind you, it was a bit crude in comparison with nowadays (no MCBOs, e.g.).

Would like to see RKR appear on this forum, too. 'Too busy' is a stock excuse of the active retired! I shall e-mail him withboth an exhortation and news of my recent Meridian G08 acquisition (very good, but this fastidious jury is still out......)

Marco
05-02-2008, 20:41
Hi Mike,

Nice one. I didn't realise that you guys went way back. If you can get Roy over that would be great. I'm sure this forum would be an ideal vehicle for him to report on his experiments with the mains :)

Marco.

Chris Frost
08-02-2008, 02:11
Well, I've skimmed through this thread to get the jist.

I'm curious. Is the problem with the perceived value?

Should something for £400 be bigger, shinier, rounder, transparent, blue, curly, have holes it it or something equally bizarre? If it's a question of physical size then how do we reconcile cartridges at several hundreds of pounds for something a little larger than a sugar cube when my Granny used to buy a needle for the radiogramme for a fiver?

Say you were a Naim 555 owner sat in the dem room and the electronics were hidden behind a curtain so just the speakers were on show. The dem guy says "Our next upgrade is £400" and you liked it enough to buy; would you feel ripped off walking out with a mains cable? Does the fact that it is a mains cable suddenly alter what you heard? Is that how it works?

I can see how some people are having a problem with a mains cable at £400, but my only question is "Does it make the music better?".

Mike Reed
08-02-2008, 22:03
CHRIS,

If you think people are having problems entertaining a £400 Naim mains lead HERE, you ought to try to wade through the over-long, rambling, incoherent and occasionally vindictive thread on this subject over on Pink Fish.

Apart from the obvious interest in a new Naim creation (for a Naim user, that is), I cannot fathom the polarised opinions this has created. Neither do I consider £400 to be a lot of money compared to other manufacturers, or, in fact, ANYTHING in mid/upper echelon audio.

As it appears that the 'secret ingredient' is in the decoupling, esp. at the 13amp. plug end, it wouldn't interest me from a purely practical viewpoint (see my posting). However, Naim haven't often brought out something new which didn't at least have a trick up its sleeve.

Chris Frost
08-02-2008, 23:37
Hi Mike,
Yeah, mentioning cables, tables or blocks is like a red rag to a bull for some. Science proves bees can't fly, the sun goes round the earth, etc, etc.

In some systems they might work; in some they might not. I prefer to keep an open mind.


Naim haven't often brought out something new which didn't at least have a trick up its sleeve.I read about the fancy stuff they did in developing this lead. It's funny how easy some people find it to dismiss the hard work of others. It kind of reminds me of a story...


A man pushes his car on to a rural garage forecourt and has a chat with the mechanic. 5 minutes later the mechanic reappears carrying a big hammer, pops the bonnet and gives the engine one almighty whack. The car springs to life.
"That'll be £200" says the mechanic.
"What!" screams the man, "£200 for hitting it with a hammer?! I could have done that."
"Nope, it were £10 to hit it...," the mechanic calmly replies "...and £190 for knowing where."

:)

Steve Toy
09-02-2008, 02:51
I find the notion of someone having an issue with a major lift in a system's resolution costing £400 HERE to be slightly confusing given the very subjective ethos HERE.

Scepticism is certainly reasonable when a particular cable may cost thousands, but not when it 'only' costs £400 and compares very well in terms of magnitude of improvement in resolution with the going-active option in terms of amplification, that does actually cost thousands - an extra NAP 300 and an active X-over box.

In a non-Naim system, the Music Works ensemble of Reflex block and Recoil leads, each of which cost half that of the new Naim leads, delivers a similar lift in resolution. The Recoil leads have a slightly different method of tackling (mechanical) microphony that takes the form of a damping patch in place of the decoupled plug.

Trust your ears - they are the ultimate arbiter for VFM.

Lowrider
09-02-2008, 09:00
it 'only' costs £400

All is relative, obviously it is a lot of money for a cable, but if you have kit in the same range, then it may be justifiable...

Marco
09-02-2008, 10:05
Hi Chris,


Well, I've skimmed through this thread to get the jist.

I'm curious. Is the problem with the perceived value?


Yes, for many it seems to be a major issue, yet those same people will not think twice about spending thousands on a new box which quite often won't have as big an impact on sound quality, certainly in the fundamental way cables do at the mains end of a hi-fi system.

People need to start digesting the fact that what you're listening to through your speakers is modulated mains (this is a fact) so anything that can be done to 'clean up' or 'improve' the quality of the mains signal (and it is a 'signal') at source fundamentally affects the performance of the system and in turn how it communicates music to the listener. Optimising the mains set-up of a hi-fi or home cinema system pays huge dividends and should be seen as a priority and something enthusiasts should attend to first before anything else if the system is to perform at its best.

The fact that I mention home cinema is interesting because you're here, Chris, as our resident AV specialist. Normally the problem people have in indentifying cable improvements with audio only systems is 'proving' the results heard. However, I have seen (and I'm sure in your job you have too) the effect better quality cables have on a home cinema (AV) system in terms of improved picture quality - more natural colours, less saturation, etc, as well as of course superior sound quality, so perhaps this is the best way to test the efficacy of 'audiophile' cables because you can see the effects as well as hear them.

A simple test would be to hook up an AV system with 'bog standard' mains cables supplied with the equipment and play a section of a movie with the system set-up that way, observing the picture quality by judging the relevant parameters, some of which I outlined above, and then replay the same with high quality 'audiophile' mains leads. If the picture is sharper, the colours more natural, etc, and this is clearly visible in front of you, then surely the only conclusion that can be reached is that the better mains leads clearly make a difference.

If you accept that then surely the effect realised of doing so in an audio only system will be improved sound quality? Or does the benefit somehow just magically affect the picture quality in an AV system but do nothing to the sound quality of an audio system? The fact is what's happening when high quality 'audiophile' mains leads are used is that 'noise' on the mains supply is reduced as well as the effect of RFI and EMI, both well known and recognised forms of mains interference, which can easily be measured with the right apparatus. The Audio Prism 'Noise Sniffer', available from Russ Andrews Accessories, is one such device.

So to conclude, it's high time some of the cable sceptics (and cynics) started using their EYES as well as their ears! Or maybe in the minds of cynical objectivists our eyes are being 'deceived', too? ;)

Marco.

Mike Reed
09-02-2008, 10:44
Apropos your comment on a/v cables, MARCO, although I don't have an a/v set-up as such (TV through the stereo system), the ENORMOUS difference I recently experienced when I substituted a 'normal' scart with a Monster Video 3 from digibox to TV was hard to believe.

There is no doubt in my doubter's mind now that digital pictures, at least through Sony freeview, are vastly superior to terrestial analogue.

OF COURSE cables make a difference: ALL types of cables. AND audio will surely always be a bit of a black art.

Nice little joke, CHRIS. Heard it before, but none the worse for the re-telling!

Chris Frost
09-02-2008, 12:08
All is relative, obviously it is a lot of money for a cable, but if you have kit in the same range, then it may be justifiable...I still don't get it. I thought we were listening to music through a system, not a collection of disparate boxes.

Someone else posted that the difference was as big as going from passive to active but at a fraction of the cost. Now that sounds like a really big improvement for very little money! Should we really care if it's a cable that makes this difference? In the context of a system it really shouldn't matter, right?

It doesn't make sense to me that some folk consider it OK to spend £4000* going active because you get a big pile of boxes, but it's not OK to get the same sonic benefit by spending £400 because "it's just a cable". That's just trophy'ism.

* I don't know Naim prices so £4K is just a random figure

Marco
09-02-2008, 12:17
Mike,


Apropos your comment on a/v cables, MARCO, although I don't have an a/v set-up as such (TV through the stereo system), the ENORMOUS difference I recently experienced when I substituted a 'normal' scart with a Monster Video 3 from digibox to TV was hard to believe.

There is no doubt in my doubter's mind now that digital pictures, at least through Sony freeview, are vastly superior to terrestial analogue.

OF COURSE cables make a difference: ALL types of cables. AND audio will surely always be a bit of a black art.

Nice little joke, CHRIS. Heard it before, but none the worse for the re-telling!


I agree. I enjoyed Chris' little tale and it is certainly pertinent to the discussion.

I think Steve's observation is also very valid:


Scepticism is certainly reasonable when a particular cable may cost thousands, but not when it 'only' costs £400 and compares very well in terms of magnitude of improvement in resolution with the going-active option in terms of amplification, that does actually cost thousands - an extra NAP 300 and an active X-over box.


This is the point I've been making, and it's something perhaps Rob has missed or not quite grasped in our discussion earlier - YES, £400 for a mains lead *is* a lot of money, there is no question about that, but if it makes a similar (or better) improvement in a system to that of a box, or series of boxes, costing many times more, then surely it is by that definition not expensive and indeed in comparison could be considered a 'bargain'?

Of course by "bargain" I mean the level of sonic upgrade achieved in terms of sound-per-pound value, not that a £400 mains lead could ever be considered a 'bargain' in the true sense of the word :)

In terms of Naim users the point I was making was that to my ears (and Steve's) the improvement the Powerline (yes that's what it is called) made to the demo system was (almost) as significant as that obtained by spending thousands of pounds on another NAP300 and a SNAXO. *That* is what people criticising Naim's introduction of a £400 mains lead have to get their heads around.

I've always maintained (and experience confirms this) that the only way to obtain a truly musical and sonically rewarding hi-fi system is to start from the ground up and provide a well-sorted 'foundation' from which the system operates, so in terms of order of priority it is therefore thus:

MAINS > CABLES > STANDS > EQUIPMENT.

No other method in my experience gives satisfactory results. If you ignore the system's 'foundation' and spend all your money on boxes the full potential of the equipment will never be realised, nor likely therefore long term musical satisfaction achieved. It's no coincidence that people who attend effectively to the 'foundation' of their systems change equipment less often and probably buy and enjoy more music in the process. It doesn't take a genius to work out why...

Marco.

Mr Ed
09-02-2008, 12:44
Larry, pretending to be Ed

Congratulations on maintaining a reasoned, and reasonable debate on a forum!

Larry

Steve Toy
09-02-2008, 12:52
Congratulations on maintaining a reasoned, and reasonable debate on a forum!

I hope there is and will be more than one such reasoned and reasonable debate on this forum.:popcorn: ;)

Thanks.

Marco
09-02-2008, 12:55
It doesn't make sense to me that some folk consider it OK to spend £4000* going active because you get a big pile of boxes, but it's not OK to get the same sonic benefit by spending £400 because "it's just a cable". That's just trophy'ism.


Spot on, Chris. But then you're dealing with 'audiophiles' who in many cases cherish the possession of a shiny new box more than the ultimate enjoyment of music ;)

You can't 'show off' a new mains lead to your non-hi-fi loving friends and colleagues, well at least not without getting some very strange looks!

And for many, unfortunately, therein lays the crux of the matter.

Marco.

Chris Frost
09-02-2008, 13:05
A simple test would be to hook up an AV system with 'bog standard' mains cables supplied with the equipment and play a section of a movie with the system set-up that way, observing the picture quality by judging the relevant parameters,
It's funny you say that. I did a little experiment with some HDMI cables over at the AW last week.

For those who don't know, HDMI is a digital interconnect, so the theory is that it's 0's and 1's and hence cable can't make a difference. To test this I brought a 1080p LCD in to the shop (Plannar 37", nice set) and a cheap 5m HDMI cable (about £40). We hooked up a Loewe Bluray player and had a look at video.

Our test was a cheap 5m HDMI vs a 2m mid-market HDMI (£60) vs a 2m high-end HDMI by MIT (Approx £200- Ed at AW can confirm exact pricing).

Everyone viewing agreed with the results. The cheap and mid-market cables looked reasonably similar with bright daylight scenes; colours slightly better defined on the mid cable. Dark scenes show a slightly bigger difference. A fraction less noise on the mid-m cable. Conclusion so far - better but not significantly so. Now on the the MIT.

This was a night and day difference. The MIT help bright scenes to look cleaner, clearer, with better colour fidelity and improved detail; but it was the dark scenes where the biggest differences were apparent.

The noise floor fell dramatically. Shadowy scenes that exhibited blue speckley video noise with the two previous cables looked so much cleaner. Edge definition improved as did colour fidelity and shadow detail. Conclusion - the MIT appeared to be allowing the 0's and 1's to get through better - Impossible I know, but no-one told bees they can't fly either.

From my limited knowledge of digital audio recording I understand that that medium works best when handling a signal recorded at the maximum signal level. Low level signals exhibit worse distortion - the exact opposite of analogue. The same appear to be happening with digital video.

Bright scenes are like loud music passages. Dark scenes are like quite ones.

Perhaps using a better HDMI cable means that the decoding circuitry at the display end is having an easier time. Certainly the results from the MIT cable would seem to support that.

Mr Ed
09-02-2008, 14:07
Larry again

Chris, I do think analogue signals are affected in the same way. If there is a fixed noise level on a cable (induced by surroundings, cable integrity etc) a low level analogue signal will be swamped. One of the first things to emerge as 'detail' when a better analogue cable is inserted is ambient information - ie the acoustic environment in which a recording was made. This is just the same low level detail emerging out of noise as you saw in your A/V test.

Just for the record, no, ambient information is not an important part of the musical performance, but just as much genuine musical information is lost in the noise.

Chris Frost
09-02-2008, 14:56
Hi Larry,

I haven't really described it that well, but there's some property of digital recording that its resolution improves as the dynamic range of the signal increases. It's like the THD falls to zero at the signal saturation level for digital, whereas the THD increase in an analogue recording. This is different to S/N.

It's all a bit vague I know. I should really try to find some sort of article on this, but it's perhaps a little OT for this thread.

Regards

Steve Toy
09-02-2008, 15:02
but it's perhaps a little OT for this thread.



Not at all.

Chris Frost
10-02-2008, 23:38
I've always maintained (and experience confirms this) that the only way to obtain a truly musical and sonically rewarding hi-fi system is to start from the ground up and provide a well-sorted 'foundation' from which the system operates, so in terms of order of priority it is therefore thus:

MAINS > CABLES > STANDS > EQUIPMENT.

No other method in my experience gives satisfactory results. If you ignore the system's 'foundation' and spend all your money on boxes the full potential of the equipment will never be realised,Surely you need some equipment first before you can make any sort of sensible decision on cables and stands? How else are you going to hear what's going on? :D

Marco
11-02-2008, 09:18
LOL. I knew some smart arse would comment on that!

What I meant of course was that I'd rather have a well-chosen simple system that was properly set-up than a hugely expensive pile of boxes thrown together any old way ;)

I'd bet any amount of money that the former would play music much better than the latter!! Indeed, experience tells me so :)

The DCS room at the Manchester show is a valid case in point.

Marco.

Mike
21-02-2008, 23:41
Bloody hell!........ Is this heading into PFM territory? :lolsign:

Just joshing! :ner:

Having spent almost 30 years sending signals down bits of wire I know only too well that cables make a difference. I'd still struggle to fork out £400 for a kettle lead, but (like others have said) maybe it should be looked at as 'is it a £400 upgrade'?

Who the hell am I to say how other folk spend their cash???

Cheers,
Mike.

Marco
15-02-2010, 00:12
Nicely resurrected, Chris!

Given the somewhat thorny discussion currently running on pfm about "How can a power cable make any difference?", some of the info here could be considered as rather thought-provoking ;)

Funny thing is, it seems SO long ago since I wrote that article and AOS was in its infancy.....

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
15-02-2010, 00:25
Nicely resurrected, Chris!

Given the somewhat thorny discussion currently running on pfm about "How can a power cable make any difference?", some of the info here could be considered as rather thought-provoking ;)

.................well, fancy that!!


Funny thing is, it seems SO long ago since I wrote that article and AOS was in its infancy.....

That's what I love about my Sunday nights!!!!

DSJR
15-02-2010, 10:36
Just got a MG mains lead and just to stick fingers up at blinkered objectivists (not all are), I'm running the stereo with tuner and preamp connected but amps off in an excuse of "running in..."

So there!!!!!!!

Marco
15-02-2010, 10:49
Nice one, Dave. It'll be interesting finding out what you think... If you want to report on it, start a new thread :)

Marco.

DSJR
15-02-2010, 11:50
Ok :)

Kris
15-02-2010, 12:12
I upgraded my kettle lead once. Any remaining impurities dissolved and my coffee tasted better than ever. Highly recommended upgrade for coffee connoisseurs.

That said, keep away from the Nescafe branded ones, the sound becomes a bit too forward and, umm, instant. . .:eyebrows:

UV101
15-02-2010, 15:36
Was it the normal one or the gold blend one?

Apparently if it was the later, it'll leave you hanging on for years before its finally 'run in' and then finally do what you've been expecting/known it was going to do/ willing it to do all along it to do all along!;):doh:

Mike Reed
15-02-2010, 21:20
Well I'm damned. A discussion on the Powerline (resurrected or not) on this forum?

That's one Naim upgrade I can discount, I'm pleased to say, and I was of the opinion that these particular mains leads, designed around the plug as they are, wouldn't appeal to Marco either.

Odd!

I can certainly vouch for the Superline mentioned in the initial post, though.

DSJR
15-02-2010, 22:39
Looks like a twin rf cable to me.. Plenty of these about, but I wouldn't know which one they use....

Any cable you have to "massage" before it sounds any good is a bit too kinky for me - in every sense......

Joe
15-02-2010, 23:20
What a lot of banned posters higher up the thread!