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View Full Version : Marc Phillips of the Anti-Direct Drive League: Does he know his stuff or is he BS?



Epicurus
08-02-2011, 17:23
Today, I came across a 2006 posting of said Rega nut and I wonder if the guy's off his rocker or what:

http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl53.html

Especially this bit:


"What direct-drive means is that the motor which spins the platter is directly coupled to the spindle. The advantages to such a design is that speed variation is reduced dramatically, which is a good thing. The disadvantage is that the motor vibrates, and the vibrations go right up the spindle, onto the platter, through the record itself, and right to the stylus. No one really makes direct-drive turntables anymore because we all know they suck. All of you who still think records are noisy, and that they pop and click too much ... you were probably listening on a direct-drive turntable."

Seriously, he doesn't know a thing about engineering; if he did, he'd understand that motors that have no reciprocating parts (i.e. electric motors) do not vibrate or produce negligible vibrations and, of course, a rotary engine (such as the Wankels used in Mazda's RX series of cars) produce far fewer vibrations than piston engines (Otto, Diesel or Atkinson cycles).

Really, I'm sick and tired of every idiot that has never bothered to study the slightest bit about mechanics and yet has the nerve to tell us that what science and experience has taught us is wrong and his dogma is right. Anonymous would easily draw parallels between Tom Cruise's choice of superstition and belt drive.

audio39
08-02-2011, 18:54
Hi Epicurus,

Electric motors do vibrate...in industry we run vibration routes on all of our large and/or expensive motors.

The issue to me is that even in a belt drive the platter is turning on a bearing or bushing...meaning some level of vibration. The belt is pulling the spindle from one side and therefore wear is occurring on one side of the bushing much more than the other, definitely not good. The belts themselves induce a level of vibration for goodness sake.

At the end of the day this has been debated and investigated ad nauseum...the "for" crowd have always reported no audible artifacts present due to the DD motor, the "opposing" group of course finding the opposite.

At the end of the day...this guy is a goof who should stick to listening to music and leave the engineering to the Engineers!

Reid Malenfant
08-02-2011, 19:03
Electric motors do vibrate...in industry we run vibration routes on all of our large and/or expensive motors.
I'll agree with that 100%, even with dynamic balancing...

However what we are talking about here with a DD motor is a maximum rotational speed of 78RPM if modified & as standard a maximum of 45RPM, not the kind of speeds that belt drive motors are spinning at or industrial motors for that matter ;)

Even if the motor was miraculously out of balance the forces produced at these speeds are going to be orders of magnitude lower than a motor spinning 20 or more times as fast :)

As the motor isn't being loaded by a belt pulling things with a sideways force there should be less ware & less friction resulting in even less cause for generating any kind of vibration :cool:

That bloke is talking out of his arse, & that's being polite :D E2A:- I did read the whole artical earlier on so i think i can draw my own conclusions from his cobblers :rolleyes:

audio39
08-02-2011, 19:11
Agreed.

tommy6206
08-02-2011, 19:17
Well he talks a load of bollox. A Rega fanboy

John
08-02-2011, 19:24
People like this come up with theories to juistfy what they have, best to leave him with his illusions

Marco
08-02-2011, 19:36
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha..... Thanks for that, Konstantinos - I've not laughed so much in ages! :lol:


And I've heard Technics turntables on several occasions, and I think they sound flat, lifeless, and downright boring compared to a decent belt-drive turntable.


Yesh, I just love the flat, lifeless, sound of my Techie, compared to a Rega - oh yes, indeedy!!

That bloke is one serious A-hole, and full of more shit than the most diarrhoea-ridden nappy. There's so much pish written there that it would take the baddest and fattest Tena for Men to mop it all up. I could spend hours gettin' jiggy with his delusions.......

*But*, I think the best course of action is to send him a link to the Analogue Art section of this forum :eyebrows:

Marc, you have mail!

Marco.

Alex_UK
08-02-2011, 19:42
It is strange how there seems to be a lot of polarisation in the hifi world - valves vs. solid state, bookshelf vs. standmount (etc.) analogue vs. digital etc. etc. etc. - and belt vs DD is just another example. Of course the truth is that in every case neither is right - much more important is how any given type of technology is implemented, and there will always be excellent and poor products based around the same ideology.

Of course the real right answer is that idler drives are better than both DD or belt drive! :eyebrows: ;)

Marco
08-02-2011, 20:53
You may be interested to know, I've received this reply to my email from Marc:


Hi Marco,

Well, it seems you guys have stumbled onto a 2006 article of mine that does not address the many subsequent articles that I wrote for TONEAudio and others about the SL1200. But you guys aren't the first group of "technical-minded" individuals who can't research correctly and draw conclusions from a small sample size. Why do you think that is?

I know. Because the real engineers in the field back up what I say, and the pseudo-audio guys who are tone deaf enough to prefer the 1200 to premium belt-drive designs whine and complain about me criticizing your purchasing decisions.

Fact: I have completed many double-blind comparisons with the Technics and the Rega. I've ran a few more DBTs with others. The 1200 never wins.
Fact: I have achieved decent sound from a 1200...after replacing the arm, the armboard and installing an outboard power supply and using cartridges that cost more than the 1200 itself.
Fact: I have gone on record as stating that many direct drive TTs do sound good, but at a significant price.

All I see in that forum is a lot of name calling and no real science. Sorry, but I can't take you and your friends seriously. I did my homework. I owned a 1200 for two years and I couldn't wait to get rid of it. But you guys go ahead and enjoy your crappy-sounding TTs. I moved on a long time ago.

Marc


Looks like we've touched a raw nerve! :lol:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
08-02-2011, 21:00
All I see in that forum is a lot of name calling and no real science.
This bloke really is having a laugh, frankly i doubt he'd know science if it gave him a black eye :eyebrows:

What a total plonker :rolleyes:

I think he needs to explain the science behind his rubber bands before dissing real & not perceived differences between TTs :D

Nuff said, i rest my case :cool:

audio39
08-02-2011, 22:22
Buddy Marc seems to be a bit uptight. :eyebrows:

Perhaps a quick wank and a bit of Led Zeppelin would be the medicine he needs!! :lolsign:

chris@panteg
08-02-2011, 22:46
Well jizza phillip's comments about 1200 user's never having owned or dared listen too a decent belt drive are ridiculous , a fair few ex linnie's on here , myself included , perhaps i should scour ebay for a good used P3 and put it to the test !

Marco
08-02-2011, 23:17
S'ok, Chris, I've done it recently at a mate's house. The P3 lost royally!

We'd probably need a stock Techie to make the test fair, though.

Old Marc-y boy also seems like one of those types who needs a double-blind test to prove he's got a dick between his legs! :eyebrows:

Marco.

WOStantonCS100
08-02-2011, 23:17
Perhaps a quick wank and a bit of Led Zeppelin would be the medicine he needs!! :lolsign:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I remember auditioning the Rega P3 a few years back. The red plinth was nice; but, I'm not paying extra for "paint". It didn't sound "awful"; but, neither was I impressed. Then I read about Rega's tending to run fast. Fast or slow is a big no-no in my book; because, speed fluctuations change pitch. That's not just my opinion. Then I watched a youtube video recently where someone had change the stock belt for the "white" belt. He raves on the video with an "oh yeah!". He was playing Jimi's Band of Gypsies. It just so happens that I had blasted that for my son the weekend prior, on one of my 1200's. The Rega was blatantly running fast... even with this new improved belt which is supposed to stabilize and correct the speed issue (and how exactly would it do that if the inside diameter hasn't changed??. What am I missing?) :scratch: Maybe, it's just me. I would be upset at those who keep deriding the 1200 just for the sake of selling their own product or simply for the heck of it. But, every now and again we all need a good laugh.

The funny thing is that now some (not all) of those who bashed the 1200 for being a cheap dj table (but wanted to "test" one out ;) )... can't afford one, :lolsign: :lol: :lolsign: much less, mod one.

WAD62
08-02-2011, 23:24
I think the boy may be a bit of a specialist...

which has always been the point of "The Vinyl Anachronist."

...it's bad enough assuming some trumped up name, but then to refer to oneself in the third person by it, is a bit worrying.

Delusions of grandiour....Oh no,no,no :lol:

Marco
09-02-2011, 00:34
Indeed - I think he's more 'special needs', than a specialist! ;)

Marco.

Epicurus
09-02-2011, 07:01
Seriously now, our friend Marc acts moar like an uptight and anal-retentive little bitch than a true hi-fi/high end reviewer and he wouldn't look out of place in Encyclopedia Dramatica.

MartinT
09-02-2011, 07:22
"All of you who still think records are noisy, and that they pop and click too much ... you were probably listening on a direct-drive turntable."

LOL! Well, I don't know what I'm listening to, then. I just love absolutist comments like that, where he leaves himself nowhere to back down. File under 'bin'.

Marco
09-02-2011, 09:47
Marc and I are becoming good buddies now. Does anyone want to see the last email he's sent me? I promise it's a cracker! :lol:

Marco.

MartinT
09-02-2011, 09:59
Ooh, go on!

Marco
09-02-2011, 10:19
Ok, since I know the folks here aren't sensitive little flowers....


In addition to the fact that you're supposedly an "engineering" type that still believes in an invisible guy up in the sky, I have to admit you and your friends look rather foolish on your little audio discussion forum. The fact that you treat me one way in direct correspondence and then run back to your forum to call me name says volumes about the type of person you are.

I love how you quote my email (which can be illegal if you don't have my expressed consent) and say "looks like we hit a raw nerve." That's what guys on audio discussion forums always say when they've been bested and can't come up with a solid response. Looking through the responses in that thread, I can safely say there isn't a knowledgeable or experienced audio guy in the lot.

For example:

I'm repeatedly called a Rega nut and a Rega fanboy, but a little research reveals that I owned a J.A. Michell turntable throughout the last decade. That's some "Rega nut."

One person says: "I think he needs to explain the science behind his rubber bands before dissing real & not perceived differences between TT." You mean this guy doesn't know the science behind belt drives and how they can isolate vibrations and separate the platter from the plinth? And why is this guy posting on an audio forum if he doesn't understand this?

Another says: "Perhaps a quick wank and a bit of Led Zeppelin would be the medicine he needs!!" Ah, so you're a bunch of potheads. That explains a lot. From the looks of it, NONE of you are getting ANY, which is fairly typical of guys who hang out on audio forums.

You said: "Old Marc-y boy also seems like one of those types who needs a double-blind test to prove he's got a dick between his legs!" No...I did DBT tests to silence the wankers like you who don't accept listening with one's ears, which I usually do. In other words, I backed my statements up with fact. And besides, how old are you? 17? What grown man has to resort to dick jokes when discussing audio? Answer: none.

Another complete idiot says: "Then I read about Rega's tending to run fast. Fast or slow is a big no-no in my book; because, speed fluctuations change pitch. That's not just my opinion. Then I watched a youtube video recently where someone had change the stock belt for the "white" belt. He raves on the video with an "oh yeah!"." First, he READ about Regas running fast. He didn't check. That's some scientist there. I actually tested the speeds of three random Regas from warehouse stock and they all ran EXACTLY on speed. Plus, an electronic speed control on Regas render the discussion moot. And the science behind the white belt is solid engineering...more consistent tolerances in the materials lead to less slippage. And the white belt is only $20 more than a standard belt. Not a bad deal for an audible difference, one that was clearly heard in DBTs. I haven't heard a single real engineer bash the design of the white belt; it all makes perfect sense to someone who really does understand physics.

Another dolt said: The funny thing is that now some (not all) of those who bashed the 1200 for being a cheap dj table (but wanted to "test" one out ... can't afford one." Really? I'd like to see the proof of THAT. What a foolish statement. I want to see one audiophile who bashed the 1200 and now can't afford one. JUST ONE.

Another functionally illiterate turd said: "I think the boy may be a bit of a specialist...which has always been the point of "The Vinyl Anachronist."
..it's bad enough assuming some trumped up name, but then to refer to oneself in the third person by it, is a bit worrying." I love this one, which proves just how dumb you guys are. The Vinyl Anachronist is the name of the column. My name is Marc Phillips. Therefore, I am not speaking of myself in the third person. So you guys don't know audio, and you can't read. Classic.

And you close with this winner: "Indeed - I think he's more 'special needs', than a specialist!" Consider I work with special needs children, I take offense to this. What a douchebag you and your friends are. You know, I'd join your little forum and smack you all around a bit, but considering you're the site administrator you'd just moderate me out. Besides, I don't fraternize with idiots. But what I will do is point out the idiocies and inaccuracies of you and your crew to the people who know audio, and we'll all have a laugh at the wannabes' expense.

Now, scumbag--do you have the balls to print this on your forum, completely unedited?

Don't email me again, loser.

Marc


Apparently so. Obviously he doesn't know me..... ;)

The poor boy's burst a blood vessel - in all honesty, I fear for his health. But where on earth did he get the idea we were all 'engineering/measurement types'? :scratch:

AoS is mainly populated by 'trust your ears' type subjectivists, and experienced and discerning ones at that.

What Marc fails to realise is that if he hadn't written such ill-informed, outrageously biased and turgid drivel about the SL-1200 in 2006, and direct-drive T/Ts in general in the first place, then he might have been treated with some respect, rather than the ridicule he now so richly deserves! :lol:

Marco.

P.S Marc, if you're reading, you're more than welcome to join and "smack us all around a bit". And if you do, I promise that I will not moderate/edit one single word you write, simply because the entertainment value would suffer :eyebrows:

MartinT
09-02-2011, 10:38
Marc - YOU made an idiotic statement which I quoted in my post #18. We all know, really, that there are good and bad examples of every turntable technology, be it direct drive, belt drive, idler wheel or some other mechanism. To make such a sweeping statement just made you look silly. The forum members here are a lot less biased and a lot more open-minded than just about any other forum I've visited.

So stop the shouty nonsense and argue your ground. Some of us here *are* engineers and we do understand the principles at work. Tell us why direct drive turntables are all poor. We have decks that say otherwise and are prepared to demonstrate that truth.

WAD62
09-02-2011, 10:54
Marc,

Hope you can read this, apologies for incorrectly assuming your column name was a pseudonym.

That said you should calm down and wipe the foam from your mouth, you bitterness and bile does not reflect well upon your opinions.

I'm a Linn user, so don't assume were over here in one big like minded technology gang, this site allows and promotes objective opinions, something you might like to take on board...just a little help for your 'Life Skills'

chris@panteg
09-02-2011, 11:01
This is all turning a bit nasty ! and perhaps a proper disscussion over a few beers would be far better , Marc ' i didn't know you worked with special needs children ' but then how would any of us here have known that !

I still say anyone who has lived with the SL1200 (modded) or not and a number of quality belt drive's and still feels the 1200 is lacking ' is fine with me .

My gripe is with anyone dissing the deck , without even bothering to live it or trying to get the best out of it , bearings 'psu's etc , and just sweepingly stating the TT i have had for the last 25 years is the best and can't be bettered ?

Marco
09-02-2011, 11:48
Yes, I agree with Chris. And I apologise for the special needs remark, which was rather insensitive.

Now we've all had the chance to poke a little fun at Marc, provoked by the ever-so-slightly biased and closed-minded article he wrote about the SL-1200 in 2006 (which given the nature of its content, he could not realistically grudge our piss-taking), and since he's obviously learned from then, we should turn this into something constructive.... :)

Like Chris, I abhor those who slag off the Techie that haven't actually heard what a modified version is capable of, and basically talk through the hole in the arse. However, as Marc says, he's used one with a better PSU, tonearm and cartridge, so he's entitled to his opinion.

Therefore, let's all put down our 'poisoned pens' and try and have a meaningful debate on the matter. Marc clearly has lots to say on the subject, and has a significant amount of relevant experience to call upon of using both direct-drive and belt-drive T/Ts.

In that respect, I would invite him to join us and offer his thoughts, and see whether or not we can learn from each other. So now the hilarity is over, let's see if anything genuinely worthwhile can be gleaned from this little episode......

Marc, if you're reading, come on in and join the mad house! That is, "if you have the balls"....? ;)

Marco.

audio39
09-02-2011, 12:28
Just finished reading the entire thread...twice!!

So if Marc is jumping on AoS here and there I would suggest he take a moment to peruse the bottom of each post...most of us have identified our gear, Marc could have easily found that his point of view that each poster was a Technics fanboy was incorrect.

Marc, if you're reading this, take note. I've been in this hobby for a full 32 years now. I have owned a turntable from near to every manufacturer...and if I haven't owned one it likely means I had the chance to hear that companies goods and chose to stay away.

One of my all time favourite tables is the Kenwood KD-600, a DD with enormous potential, and I say that not from opinion but from having owned and decked out 600's on 3 separate occasions...this going back many years.

I have owned an LP-12 - and I hated it - at least as much as someone can hate a piece of gear. I have on numerous occasions listened to other folks Rega's, each time going away wondering what all the noise was about. And I know a gent with a fully decked out KAB modded 1200...he has an FR arm mounted (he changed the arm some time ago) on the deck and is running a very expensive Shelter cart...I don't have a deep appreciation for the cart, but I have garnered a deep appreciation for the table.

For reference, this same friend owns a few other tables, 2 of those specimens are belt driven, both he and I prefer his Technics.

So your rambling about our perspective is both inaccurate and undeserved...it would appear that myself and many others here HAVE heard the other side, yet we believe the Technics to be an excellent music producer.

Marc, at the end of the day, it's just your opinion. If we all thought, saw, and heard the same way...well, we'd all be fighting over the same woman, wouldn't we?

And just for shits-n-giggles I close with my opinion of the Michell you're so proud of...I would not own one, I find their presentation sterile.

I do hope Marc is able to open his mind to the idea that perhaps his own narrow-minded-ness inhibits others from hearing him.

Rick.

Epicurus
09-02-2011, 12:57
The guy is an absolute clown and I need only scratch the surface of what I've learned during my undergrad studies (I'm an industrial engineer and the Technical Chamber considers us to be mechanical engineers, because we do receive such knowledge as students). While it is true that motors of any kind tend to vibrate, the magnitude, frequency and intensity - to use laymen's terms of these vibrations depends on the following factors:


Type of motor (is it a reciprocating engine - i.e. the piston engines found in old train engines, steam ships contemporary to the Great Eastern and, of course, our cars - , is it a rotary - Wankel - engine, is it an electric motor that only has rotating parts?). Reciprocating engines suffer very badly from vibrations and, to alleviate for this, we take a ton of measures, besides balancing the crankshaft, propshaft, halfshafts and wheels: counter-rotating shafts, increasing the number of cylinders, using V6, V8, V12 engines, boxer engines, choosing engine block materials that will better absorb vibrations (for instance, cast iron is thought to absorb engine vibrations better than aluminium), paying extra close attention to the design of the engine mounts, etc. Rotary engines (i.e. Wankel engines - see Mazda RX series and NSU Ro80 - and some other, newer, non-Wankel rotary engine designs) fare A LOT better in this department. What engineers consider absolutely perfect when it comes to vibration is the electric motor and the turbojet/turbofan engine: rotating parts only, no reciprocating parts whatsoever. But even these are liable to the odd vibration and it's a matter of implementation and design.
The faster an engine revs, the more intense the vibrations will be. Thus, as has been pointed out, a well-designed electric motor that rotates at 33.3333rpm is always going to vibrate less than if it was rotating at 45rpm, much less than if it was rotating at 78rpm and significantly less than if it was rotating at 200rpm or more.
The use of a belt between the motor's shaft and the driven wheel or platter does NOT guarantee absorption of vibrations. Seriously. I've seen vibrations transfered to camshafts from a problematic crankshaft through the belt and it wasn't a pretty sight at all (and it was even worse to drive the afflicted car).
Measurements don't lie. Period. And Hi-Fi and High-End magazines that do not measure the equipment they "test" should just close their doors forever. And of course, ANY reviewer that does not back his statements with measurements and experimental data is a con artist, a fraudster and a crook and, of course, his writings have [B][I]ZERO[B] value and credibility.


Sorry Mr. Marc Phillips, you shouldn't have attracted the attention of people who have studied mechanics and come from an engineering background. You can't back your statements with facts, you can't be bothered to and all you do is camouflage your ignorance with a snarky kind of writing. But, sadly for you, some of us are far better-versed in the world of internet discourse than yourself; and the internet can be an unforgiving bitch, you know, especially when you try to pick on people who can use their knowledge to rip you to shreds and do it just for the lulz.

Thanks for entertaining us with this ridiculously rude and lulzy email you sent to Marco, now go back to your corner and bitch all you want to your "we don't need real equipment tests" fanbois. You only proved that (a) your opinions are not only subjective, but are entirely unsupported by facts, (b) you're a complete and utter drama queen. I suggest that you take your drivel to other sounding boards like Live Journal (THE haven for people like you).

bigmoog
09-02-2011, 13:42
"The only time measurements mean anything in hifi, is when deciding if your rega/linn/etc/etc turntable will fit into the dustbin when the time comes (rapidly) to replace it with something a little bit better such as a life or girlfriend...."

...as actually quoted by an engineer friend of mine who has a first class degree in engineering science gained at Oxford University (well before it cost 9K a year in fees.....) and who thinks we are all 'stupid':mental:


personally I prefer high mass thread drives (fishing wire or silk):cool:

sondale
09-02-2011, 15:53
"All lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest."

JazzBones
09-02-2011, 15:58
Woweee! I own both and use both a modded Linn LP12 AND a tricked out Technics 1210 SL Mk2 turntables both in two seperate systems, different rooms. I enjoy what each brings to my musical enjoyment and have no blood pressure raising reasons to hate either, so sod the engineering swagger and get on with life and its differences. By the way my Tekko is in the main system as it proves much easier to use by both me and her ;)

The love of good music is for well adjusted humans and the bull dust that attracts the donk heads must not be allowed, :) and :steam:

I'm off to give my Linny and Tekko a loving caress :)

Ron :piano:

audio39
09-02-2011, 16:03
"All lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest."

This is true.

JazzBones
09-02-2011, 17:22
And besides its politically incorrect to discriminate between a black Rega belt and a white Rega belt :) innit?

Ron :argument:

Marco
09-02-2011, 17:34
Hi Ron,

Just a quickie... Did you notice this post of mine, regarding your query about SUTs:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=185909#post185909

:)

Marco.

sonddek
09-02-2011, 17:39
I was a Sondek user for 26 years. My Sondek was Lingo/Cirkus/Ekos2/ArkivBoron. It now sits in a box. My Ekos and Arkiv are doing good service on a 1210. I listened to Radikal SE Sondeks on several occasions but decided that the money was better spent on other items as my Technics was preferable to the 15 grand Sondek. It simply holds a note better. And a tune. Nearly 30 years I've been going to dems. I'm not tone deaf, and the Technics has superb speed stability which keeps notes and tunes beautifully consistent in a way that many belt drive decks don't manage. To prefer a Rega (albeit an excellent deck for a belt drive) I infer that Marc is someone who is more interested in the 'sound' than in the tune or the rhythm.

JazzBones
09-02-2011, 18:08
Hi Ron,

Just a quickie... Did you notice this post of mine, regarding your query about SUTs:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=185909#post185909

:)

Marco.

Thanks Marco for the info, I did miss it (how, I don't know) and the advice is welcomed. Now well read and re-read. For cost sake I'll go with the onboard Naim S input (MM).

Ron :)

Hope my quirky outlook and humour does not offend... Would you believe I'm a colonial boy who supports Celtic and Barcelona, dinkum mate :lol:

Epicurus
10-02-2011, 08:40
The more I read the email that Marco received from Marc "drama queen" Phillips, the more convinced I become that Phillips could very, very easily be a furry, because he suffers from the following diseases:

USI (Unwarranted Self-Importance)
FC (Fursecution Complex)
SA (Self-Aggrandization)
DQC (Drama Queen Complex)

Marco
10-02-2011, 10:39
Here's Marc's response to my offer him of joining AoS to put forward his views:


Hi Marco,

After perusing the responses in the thread (and congratulations for actually printing my email), I'll have to decline. I continue to see factual error after factual error in the responses to my email, and I don't have all day to address them. I'm an old veteran of Usenet and I know how flame wars can be utterly time consuming and if I joined your forum it would just be more of the same bullshit. I have a HUGE problem with people who act nasty on the Internet and then play the sympathy card when they encounter someone who can dish it right back at them. Your forum has several of those individuals on board, and I just don't respect them enough to give them my attention. I seriously considered your offer, however, so thanks for extending it.

I do suggest that your forum members read my other articles that addressed the SL1200 before they mouth off any more. I spent over two years investigating the 1200 and wrote several articles for TONEAudio, Perfect Sound Forever and AudioENZ, and I was offered unlimited resources to explore and find out the truth. After all was said and done, I still remain unimpressed with the sound of the SL1200. Unless your members do their homework, their responses to my original 2006 article seem woefully irrelevant and incorrect.

It all comes down to this: for every anonymous Internet jerk who took offense to what I said and tried to attack me on audio forums, there were at least three engineers or real audio guys in working in the industry who told me I was right on. I also had one of the leading engineers in the audio industry, a well-known guy with a Ph.D in electrical engineering, acting as my technical editor. The people who took issue to what I said seldom presented facts to support their view; more often than not they engaged in the same infantile insults and name-calling as your forum members. They would also refuse to identify themselves. Why should I take them seriously? But I do get it: people don't like to be told that they made a poor buying decision. It hurts their feelings and makes them feel stupid. So they lash out.

Thanks for your time. I won't be checking in periodically, so feel free to say whatever you will about me. Or, as one audio manufacturer told me, "Don't worry about slamming those fools on the Internet...none of them are actually buying audio gear anyway. Fire away."

Marc


Guys, I think we'll just have to leave it there.

The problem is that we base our opinions in audio on our experiences to date. This is natural, although the more open-minded amongst us will continually review our opinions, updating them as necessary, when new information is received which renders any previously held opinions obsolete. However some are more stubborn than most, and thus less willing to embrace change, remaining forever victims of their personal biases.

Others and my experiences to date here when comparing the modified SL-1200/1210 against unexceptional mid-market belt-drive turntables, like Regas, are totally at odds to those of Marc's, and so until we either experience what he's heard, or vice versa, it's a bit like the 'irresistible force vs. the immovable object', in that neither 'side' are going to concede their ground.

It's a pity that Marc's unfortunate way of expressing himself, portrayed in his style of writing, where he does come across as rather arrogant and condescending, caused the initial reaction it did when we were presented with the article he wrote in 2006. Had it been more considerately written, and less full of prejudice and dogma, then I feel sure that the outcome of any subsequent exchange with him would've been rather different.

Anyway, the invitation for Marc to join AoS remains, should he change his mind, so I guess we can now all return to listening to our crappy 'DJ decks', and try and console ourselves somehow from missing out in the sonic joys of a Rega or Mitchell.... ;)

Marco.

Epicurus
10-02-2011, 10:53
No, I'm not leaving it here.

He says, and I quote:


there were at least three engineers or real audio guys in working in the industry who told me I was right on.


I also had one of the leading engineers in the audio industry, a well-known guy with a Ph.D in electrical engineering, acting as my technical editor.

Why doesn't he identify his experts? I'm really sick of the "some argue" kind of thing. He doesn't cite sources, so his points are moot and worthless. He's a self-aggrandizing wannabe audio guru whose only claim to fame (or infamy) is his arrogance and USI (Unwarranted Self-Importance).

Oh, he also said...


Or, as one audio manufacturer told me, "Don't worry about slamming those fools on the Internet...none of them are actually buying audio gear anyway. Fire away."

Hmmm... Was that audio manufacturer perhaps and by any chance the proprietor of Virtual Dynamics? If that's the case, then Marc Phillips is not just FAIL, but EPIC FAIL. As for the name-calling he started against you, kudos to you for not firing back at him on the spot - it seems our little drama queen Marc Phillips can't accept the mere existence of an opposite opinion and as for facts, I want to see them. With measurements and everything, NOT the hocus-pocus voodoo snake oil thing that saddles the audio community.

Marco
10-02-2011, 11:12
Fair enough, Konstantinos. I do agree in some ways with what you've written, although, sadly, I doubt we'll ever get an answer to your questions, unless Marc decides to respond further.

For reference, this is what I wrote to him:


Hi Marc,

No problem. We're poles apart on this, so it's probably best now to leave it there. However, I would draw your attention to my lastest entry on AoS:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=186836#post186836

...noting this in particular:



"It's a pity that Marc's unfortunate way of expressing himself, portrayed in his style of writing, where he does come across as rather arrogant and condescending, caused the initial reaction it did when we were presented with the article he wrote in 2006. Had it been more considerately written, and less full of prejudice and dogma, then I feel sure that the outcome of any subsequent exchange with him would've been rather different."


You won't agree, of course, but for me, that's why you got the reaction you did. It's certainly why I initially responded so negatively to your article, and probably also why the author did.

May I may offer you some advice?

The best way, in any debate, of making one's arguments convincing, is not to ridicule the opposition, but rather to show understanding of their viewpoint, and then work on convincing them differently through mutual knowledge and respect.

You failed to do that, which is why I fear that a 'them and us' situation will always prevail between your 'adversaries' in audio and you. This is something you may wish to consider in future.

Anyway, I wish you well in whatever you do.

Best regards,
Marco.



Marco.

Epicurus
10-02-2011, 11:25
Also add documentation and justification of one's opinion through some things called facts and credible sources. That's what I learned during my years as a student, that's what I practice as an educator now, that's what I teach my students.

Without facts, credible sources and proper justification and documentation, I cannot take anyone's claims seriously; I stopped taking the most well-known Greek audio magazine seriously when a prominent reviewer said that the classic tone of a Fender Stratocaster's rear (bridge) pickup is that of a humbucker (dual coil design, both coils in phase and connected in series), whereas every electric guitarist knows that the Stratocaster has always been specified as a guitar with three single-coil pickups and that humbuckers in the bridge (initially) and neck (later) position started being installed in the late '70s by customizers like Schecter, Charvel, Mighty Mite, DiMarzio etc.

As a reader, I absolutely demand that the author/reviewer/journalist/whatever knows what he's talking about. And if an ignorant (and ill-mannered, like Phillips) author tries to ridicule those who demand a proper justification and documentation of what he says, he has to know that the Internet is an unforgiving, cruel bitch.

chris@panteg
10-02-2011, 12:16
Just a thought , does anyone on here have a bog standard 1200 and there must a Rega 3 user surely ? bake off , to be honest i wouldn't be surprised if most folk prefer the Rega .

But and here's the thing ! Both deck's should be on a table , nothing too fancy ' and no wall shelf for the Rega either , i think that would be fair .

I would be happy to listen to such a bake off , and if the rega won ! what would it prove to me , that a stock rega is better than a stock 1200 !

But i don't have a stock 1200 , i also don't think what i have now is the best TT in the world , i'm just happy with what i have and it certainly does not sound shit !

I wouldn't call myself a techie fanbois , though that's hard to believe as i use 2 of the damn things:eyebrows: i do tend to have obsession's though (my wife tells me so ) and right now i am a bit obssessed with Direct Drive turntables , being honest here 'you see i've tried loads of good belter's (LP12/Voyd/Roksan) and it maybe i return to the belt drive fold one day who knows but not right now:) going back to what Marc was saying !

Direct Drive motor's inject loads of noise into the system ? this is nonsense , unless i am completely mistaken , there are no moving parts other than the bearing/spindle +platter ?

The SL1200 can sound flat, lifeless and boring , well to be honest again it can sound like this but ... with just a little tweeking like changing the mat ,better feet and the right cartridge, its a very musical and enjoyable deck .

Epicurus
10-02-2011, 12:18
Mine is absolutely stock - it's only got an Ortofon 2M Red on it, not even a better mat.

chris@panteg
10-02-2011, 12:23
Hi Konstantinos

Well Greece is a bit to far for me , though would be nice:)

Did you have a Rega yourself at one time ?

anthonyTD
10-02-2011, 12:55
"The only time measurements mean anything in hifi, is when deciding if your rega/linn/etc/etc turntable will fit into the dustbin when the time comes (rapidly) to replace it with something a little bit better such as a life or girlfriend...."

...as actually quoted by an engineer friend of mine who has a first class degree in engineering science gained at Oxford University (well before it cost 9K a year in fees.....) and who thinks we are all 'stupid':mental:


personally I prefer high mass thread drives (fishing wire or silk):cool:
spot on!:sofa:
:lolsign:
A...

Alex_UK
10-02-2011, 12:55
Just a thought , does anyone on here have a bog standard 1200 and there must a Rega 3 user surely ? bake off , to be honest i wouldn't be surprised if most folk prefer the Rega .

Not quite Chris - but I have a stock SL-150 with a SL-1500 arm fitted, and a stock early Rega Planar 3 with an R200 arm - both have detachable headshells, so very easy to compare the two with the same cartridge... I have never back-to-back compared the two, but the Planar 3/R200 combination isn't one to be underestimated, IMHO...!

Of course, once the modding starts, you're not comparing apples with apples, but I suspect as you eluded to, the differences between a stock 1200 and stock Rega would not be monumental, and differences, rather than one is better than the other.

As I mentioned in my other post on this subject, there are good and bad implementations of both technologies, and as always, you choose your compromises.

(By the way, I do think Marc has had a bit of a hard time, from some quarters, and not especially the way we should really be treating people in the spirit of AoS - I appreciate that "if you stick it out there" then you should be prepared to get the flack back, but at the end of the day, maybe the collective "we" need not be so scathing and personal ("the ball not the man", I think was a favourite used on here in the past...) - there's so few of us into this hobby these days that we probably don't need to be creating or feeding divisions... sorry, just my opinion... but I always have had a problem with splinters in my arse!)

Marco
10-02-2011, 13:11
Point taken, Alex, and noted, but I think Marc is no shrinking violet, and given the nature of some of the diatribe he wrote in his initial email replies to me, it's not surprising the backlash he has received from certain quarters.

However, I agree with what you're saying, hence my stance towards him softened somewhat, once I'd gotten over the annoyance (and in some respects, amusement) of reading the contents of the rather closed-minded and prejudiced article he wrote in 2006 about direct-drive T/Ts, and the SL-1200 in particular, which provoked the response he got here, albeit some of which was OTT.

Quite simply, one will never win an argument or gain respect by simply ridiculing the opposition. Empathy is the key to understanding what makes others tick.

However, we're all fallible humans, I guess, including Marc! :)

Marco.

Techno Commander
10-02-2011, 13:21
Of course the real right answer is that idler drives are better than both DD or belt drive! :eyebrows: ;)

Maybe, but once I have finalised the design of my linear induction motor powered maglev turntable that will all change. :lol:

Nigel
10-02-2011, 13:22
I've come across some friends that prefer a Planar 3 to an LP12 saying it sounds more fun & less boring. I'm using the Technics over my LP12.

Epicurus
10-02-2011, 13:51
Hi Konstantinos

Well Greece is a bit to far for me , though would be nice:)

Did you have a Rega yourself at one time ?

No.