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gary
12-08-2008, 22:28
Well Marco and David were here at weekend and Marco had his Croft Pre and Yaqin power with him, So first of all Thank you Guys.

After spending some time tweaking what was a combination of my system and stuff borrowed from my brother to get it sounding its best, the following changes that Marco advised were done,The order that the mains plugs were plugged into a cheap multi adapter (Ok Marco I Will Change this ASAP) were changed to source first principal, the snaps power supply was put on it's own socket to help eliminate mains noise and the din plug collars were left loose, we could hear audible difference with just these changes. (Well Impressed)

The system we were listening to is a naim setup consisting of CDS3/XPS2/282/HI/250.2 ProAc Future 0.5s with Chord Signature Cables & Jumpers sitting on Optimum Rack with two sets of Black ravioli one set under cdp other set under pre.


So after listening to a few tracks to hear what above was doing the general comments were that it is a very transparent system we changed to the valves.

My Initial observation was with the bass which was much deeper and the voices which now seemed softer made for a very enjoyable listen with certain types of music, however the combination of the valves in this system fell down a bit as we listened to more music I started to notice that the imaging was not as good with individual instruments being harder to follow, faster bass notes were now rolling together and that softness that I initially mentioned was having an effect on the instruments making the reverb on guitar strings for example almost dissappear.

It seems that this combination is not the best the speakers may be the culprit it may be the cdp or a combination of both perhaps even the wrong directional chord anthem 2 interconnect which we landed up using as I could not phathom how to switch on the phono output from cds3, it may even be dare I say it the valves :ner:

Marco's comment was if his Amps sounded like that in his house they would have been binned so I guess I wasn't the only one who wasn't that impressed with the way they sounded in this setup, Oh well the upshot of it all is that although it was a really enjoyable evening it seems my search for audio nirvana is going to take a little longer.

So guy's back to the drawing board it seems I am not sure I want to change the entire system at this point and for me to get to the level that we were listening too with a naim system is going to cost a small fortune so suggestions are welcome.

purite audio
12-08-2008, 22:39
Valve power amps certainly won't suit every speaker how efficient are the proacs ?, Did you get the chance totry the croft pre with the Naim power? Did Marco opine why the amps sounded so bad?

gary
12-08-2008, 22:45
ProAcs have a quoted efficiency of 89db into 8 ohms but unfortunatly we did not get to trying the Croft pre with the Naim power though this would have been interesting, I am sure Marco will post his thoughts when he gets a chance

purite audio
12-08-2008, 23:05
Personally I wouldn't use a valve amp to drive a speaker with that low efficiency, but then personally I would never buy a loudspeaker that ineffiecient, be interesting to hear M's opinion.

gary
12-08-2008, 23:25
Personally I wouldn't use a valve amp to drive a speaker with that low efficiency, but then personally I would never buy a loudspeaker that ineffiecient, be interesting to hear M's opinion.

You may have hit the nail on the head with this the thing is I really like the way the ProAc's sound and as far as I know so did Marco and David they use a ribbon tweeter which may be why I like them so much a speaker change may be in order I should get around 2K for ProAcs so suggestions at around this price bracket welcome.

Steve Toy
13-08-2008, 00:41
Depending on room size, I don't know whether these Proacs are floorstanders or standmounts, but the Heco Celan 700s floorstanders I use are £1300 a pair. Whilst there is an impedance dip at 4 ohms and at around 160 Hz (according to Tony Sallis (Mr.C) IIRC) the sensitivity pushes towards 93 dB.

I also use Black Ravioli, btw under my CDP. Where did you get yours from?

Until 2001 I also used an Optimum rack. The upgrade to the non-acrylic (followed by acrylic more recently) Quadraspire Reference table(s) was enormous in retrieval of the fuller dynamic range of the source signal, especially leading edges and soundstaging/imaging.

Check how you've tightened the rods between each shelf with your Optimum table as over-tightening can be detrimental.

I may also advise that following the readjustment of the tightness of the rods on the rack that you subsequently experiment with the removal of the Ravioli under the components; Naim CDPs to my experience do not usually perform at their best on damping type feet.

Peter Stockwell
13-08-2008, 07:05
Hi Gary,

What's the naim level you aspire to, but don't want to pay for ?

I had some dems earlier this year, looking to go further with naim, and found that the extra outlay to get something that I liked was too steep. Starting from CDX2/XPS2/282/Hi/200/Kudos C10 We went to (a) CDX2/XPS2/282/SC/200 to (b) CDX2/555PS/282/SC/200 to (c)CDS3/555PS/282/SC/200.

It was certainly very easy to here that there was an "improvement" with each addition, but none gave any improvement in musical communication, either to me or my wife. I had gone prepared to be gobsmacked! The only combo I really liked was (c), That would have meant £10K or more, and frankly was not worth it.

I've been mucking around with hifi kit for about 30 years or more. I've not found anything more satisfying than my current level of Naim kit, but I have had some wake up calls recently. These are, streaming audio from my mac via Beresford DAC (total outlay c. 200€), and the Technics SL1210 mkII (I paid over the average, used, for mine at c. 300€).

I've had tube pre-amps and tube integrated in the past, I did enjoy them.

I reckon that if you're as dedicated as Steve & Marco you can move to a valve system and you'll find what you like, but you'll probably have to change everything.

cheers

Marco
13-08-2008, 09:01
Nice write-up, Gary. Having been away from home for 5 days I have some catching up to do business wise, so I will comment more later on. Suffice to say though that the Yaqin/Proacs were not a good match, sonically or electrically.

I'm also always wary about substituting Naim amps for something else (particularly valve gear) in an all-Naim electronics system, as Naim gear is designed to work together, synergistically, in a particular way therefore one risks causing an imbalance - and so it proved. The sonic signature of my SP100s in particular is diametrically opposed to the Proacs - it would be hard to find two speakers that sounded so different. However the Proacs worked very well with the Naim gear and created a sound that was relaxed but musically informative.

The experience also once again highlighted how important it is to listen to gear in your own system before buying (or making judgements), however it was a fun evening and good to meet your wife and you (and Alastair). I'm sure David would agree.

If you can make it down to Wales sometime you're very welcome to come and hear my system, where the Croft/Yaqin combination sounds just a teeny bit different ;)

More later on...

Marco.

gary
13-08-2008, 16:37
Hi Steve
The ProAcs are a floorstanding model though they are a really unusual shape there is a photo of them on this forum under strokes of genius though mine are in maple, Thanks for advice Re overtightened stand have now checked it so only hand tight, The black ravioli came from Alan at Loud & Clear Glasgow one of the better dealers out there and I have found it to make a difference to the tightness of the bass when used under CDP I am not sure if it does anything under Pre but figured it couldn't hurt.

Gary

gary
13-08-2008, 17:13
Hi Peter
That is an unusual question if I am to aspire to a naim system but not pay for it then it would be the top of the range system 552/555/500 active of course but then unless I win lottery it may be just a bit much of a stretch for my finances I currently have CDX/282(On Loan) 102/180 so my system is not a million miles away from yours I will probably keep 282 as it is such a massive improvement over 102, If I continue on the naim ladder then I would say 252/sc/cds3/555ps/300 is a more realistic target even if it does take quite a few years to get there, what I was getting at earlier is that there are a lot of valve enthuisiasts who will say that a good valve set up can sound as good or better than this at a fraction of the cost of the 23K or so needed just for the electronics in the above setup. I may forget the cdp as technology of pc's(or mac's) and dacs seem to be the way to go but even then we are looking at 14K of electronics second hand is usually about 2/3rds new price so still around 9-10K. So if it is going to be possible to get the same kind of performance from a really good valve set up for less than this I am all for it. If not then I probably will keep buying Naim as I do like what it does.

I am glad you are enjoying Stans Dac I see it arrived ok then.

Gary

gary
13-08-2008, 17:32
Just checked the sensitivity of ProAcs they are 87db not 89db :doh:

Marco
13-08-2008, 18:28
Bloody hell - no wonder the Yaqin didn't work! :lol:

You ain't gonna be able to use any kind of valve amp with those speakers Gary.

So it's back to the drawing board, dude...

Marco.

Mike
13-08-2008, 18:54
You ain't gonna be able to use any kind of valve amp with those speakers Gary.

Hmmm... dunno about that. :scratch:

There's a lot more to it than sensitivity! ;)

Togil
13-08-2008, 18:56
Bloody hell - no wonder the Yaqin didn't work! :lol:

You ain't gonna be able to use any kind of valve amp with those speakers Gary.

So it's back to the drawing board, dude...

Marco.

You can use the high-powered amps from Jadis

gary
13-08-2008, 19:09
Marco have you read Jerrys review of these speakers on strokes of genius

Mike
13-08-2008, 19:09
It could be that the ProAc's have a nasty dip in the impedance, or need driving by an amp with a higher damping factor, or.... etc.

Marco
13-08-2008, 19:28
Indeed, Mikey, but in my experience it certainly helps to have speakers much more efficient than 87db with valve amps :)

Nick,

Yep I've read Jerry's review. I agree with most of it, but of course the "valve friendly" bit depends on the various factors mentioned above.

I liked the Proacs (they worked well with the Naim gear used) but ultimately I found them a bit too laid back for my tastes. They're not boring, but the SP100s project midrange information much more directly and are livelier through the presence band which means that music is portrayed in a more 'up front' manner.

Tonally, they are 'cleaner' sounding, but not bright, and these characteristics together with their 90db efficiency rating, make for a much more synergistic partnership with the Croft/Yaqin than we heard at Gary's.

I do feel that if he's going go the valve route more efficient speakers are needed, provided of course they tick all the other relevant boxes when partnered with whatever valve amp Gary should choose. Given what I heard at Gary's, and what Jerry reported about the Proacs, it shows that valve amps and speakers must be chosen as a partnership and not auditioned separately otherwise mismatches are more than a distinct possibility.

Marco.

Mike
13-08-2008, 19:33
I do feel that if he's to go the valve route more efficient speakers are needed, provided of course they tick all the other relevant boxes when partnered with whatever valve amp Gary should choose.

Marco.

In the long run, certainly. :exactly: Especially if the bug bites and Gary decides to go the SET route.

Also depends on what sort of SPL he wants/needs?

Mike
13-08-2008, 19:39
On the other hand... My own speakers are 'only' quoted as 89dB and go plenty loud enough for me with about 35W up em!

Then again, the only review I ever found (on t'interweb) measured them at 91dB (I think form memory it was Martin Collums?). So what the hell do I know? :confused:

Could be a synerg..... oh no I don't!.... I hate that bloody buzzword! :mad:

gary
13-08-2008, 19:55
The thing is I like that "Laid Back" Sound that the ProAcs produce I find it easy to listen too. Most other speakers I have heard especially when turned up within a short period of time I want to turn them back down as they sound harsh and glarey to me, that laid back characteristic is also prevelant with naim gear so it may be I am on right track already for my tastes, it may be a bit to early to tell so I remain open minded to other possibilities, maybe take up singing on street corner to finance upgrades Im sure people would pay me to shut up :lolsign:

Marco
13-08-2008, 20:18
The thing is I like that "Laid Back" Sound that the ProAcs produce I find it easy to listen too. Most other speakers I have heard especially when turned up within a short period of time I want to turn them back down as they sound harsh and glarey to me, that laid back characteristic is also prevelant with naim gear so it may be I am on right track already for my tastes...


That's what it's all about, Gary, and why I don't think you should change your speakers. If you're interested in valve amps you need to find one (or ones) that match well with the Proacs. You've got the difficult bit done - finding a pair of speakers which you like and that work well in your room. Don't underestimate how important that is!

I'm not quite sure though that I would describe Naim gear as "laid back"; certainly the new stuff is more relaxed sounding than the old 'olive' range, but if you tried the kit we listened to the other night with, say, some Allaes or SL2s the results would have been far from "laid back".

It's the sonic characteristics of the Proacs which are ameliorating (to an extent) the mid-forward nature of the Naim gear. If you remember when I first came in I remarked that it was one of the smoothest sounding Naim systems I'd ever heard. The bottom line though is you like it like that and that's all that matters.

Going back to the efficiency thing, I did notice that the volume pot on the Croft had to be turned up much higher than I'm used to in my system - we were listening at 5 o'clock on the dial to achieve the same volume I get at 3 o'clock (bearing in mind that the pot on the Croft starts at the 12 noon position and advances from there).

It wasn't all doom and gloom though with the Croft/Yaqin/Proac combo. Like you said elements of the sound were very good indeed - elements which I know from experience gel much more effectively with the musical presentation as a whole when more suitable speakers are in use and a source which isn't voiced to present music in a particular way to suit the balance of the electronics further down the chain.

All in all, it was an educational exercise for both of us! :)

Marco.

RobHolt
13-08-2008, 20:39
A nice pair of EAR monos would do it.

There are some grippy 6550/KT88 based amps around that should also work well but these questions are always difficult to answer without knowing the room size, typical listening levels and the exact nature of speaker load.

Marco
13-08-2008, 20:56
You're absolutely right, Rob. The funny thing is that I would definitely have described the Yaqin as "grippy" before I heard it through Gary's Proacs - it certainly is in my system (in fact that's a gross understatement!) and with 4 x KT88 in push-pull mode producing 60W per channel (mostly in Class A) you would think it would've been more than "grippy" even with the Proacs.... :scratch:

I'm wondering how significant the effect of the step-down transformer is. I reckon that when the amp has new mains and output transformers fitted it will make a huge difference.

I will take the Yaqin back up to Gary's again when it has been fully modified and see what happens then. There is undoubtedly much more to come from it and perhaps it will make all the difference. Interestingly, with this session, I have discovered a useful reference point for the Yaqin with which to judge future modifications. If when fully modified the Yaqin sings with the Proacs then it'll show how significant Anthony's modifications are and it will then probably work with anything! :)

Marco.

RobHolt
13-08-2008, 21:07
Could be a number of things Marco.
Is the Yaqin a low feedback design?
If so, you'd expect the output impedance to be considerably higher than the Naim which might be causing some matching issue with the Proac.
Bass damping and/or the electrical characteristics of the Spendor load may suit the Yaqin better.

I think in general you just have to be more careful with matching tube amps to speakers. Which reminds me that I must dig out the old WAD KT88 amp at the weekend and fire it into the Tannoys.

gary
13-08-2008, 21:17
Marco this room is the reason for the extra volume my brother using exact same system in his room does not need to turn it up anywhere near as much and the bass in his is incredible thats just room acoustics

Cotlake
13-08-2008, 21:19
ProAcs will work well with valves but you need to use a push pull (PP) design with a bit of power. Marco's amp is single ended (SE) design and with ProAcs it'll run out of puff quickly.

I've heard ProAc speakers connected to Audio Research amps and they absolutely sing. If you want ready made then I'd advise a look at these amps, otherwise a PP kit with at least 36W output (KT88 valve) will sort you. Remember, in practice, valve watts are much bigger than those of sand amp watts, ie, present bigger sound.

ProAcs are good speakers and work well when coupled to a suitable source. Don't rule out a valve system because of this experience. Many flat earthers have found enlightenment when moving (from Naim/Linn) to valves, and going for a PP amp with a bit of power is the usual first step. If thereafter you really get into it, you can move onto low powered SE amps together with high efficiency speakers but you'll probably need to move into the DIY world for a expansive choice of products.

Mike
13-08-2008, 21:27
Marco's amp is single ended (SE) design

Ermm!... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/YAQIN-100B-Class-A-Valve-Tube-Integrated-Amplifier_W0QQitemZ140256725462QQcmdZViewItem?hash =item140256725462&_trkparms=72%3A640%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1308

;)

Marco
13-08-2008, 21:29
ProAcs will work well with valves but you need to use a push pull (PP) design with a bit of power. Marco's amp is single ended (SE) design and with ProAcs it'll run out of puff quickly.


Hi Greg,

The Yaqin isn't SE; it's a PP (KT88 60w design) :)

Rob,


Is the Yaqin a low feedback design?
If so, you'd expect the output impedance to be considerably higher than the Naim which might be causing some matching issue with the Proac.


I don't know if it's a low feedback design or not. I'll ask Anthony or Nick - they'll know.

There's definitely something mad going on because in my system the Yaqin has retired my £6k ECS 200w ss monoblocks, which trounced my Naim 135s, so 'un-grippy' it aint!! :confused:

Marco.

Steve Toy
13-08-2008, 21:32
Marco's amp is a push-pull chucking out 60 wpc in class A/B. It does not lack balls at all into reasonably efficient speakers.

Cotlake
13-08-2008, 21:34
Sorry to get that wrong guys :doh: That being the case ther is something else wrong here and it is more than just synergy. As said, ProAc's really do sing with Audio Research amps. I've not heard them with anything else so can't comment further.

Marco
13-08-2008, 21:38
No worries, Greg. Which Proacs did you try with the Audio Research amps - were they the same as Gary's?

Marco.

Cotlake
13-08-2008, 21:43
I can't remember, not being personally into manufactured speakers. I prefer to build my own as you know. I can find out from the owner. He's a colleague and I'll contact him tomorrow.

gary
13-08-2008, 21:44
This thread seems to have caused a few scratched heads it should be better but it isn't sort of thing, will defer to general consensus on this and then listen again once Marco has next mods done should be real interesting.

Mike
13-08-2008, 21:44
60 wpc in class A/B.

Class AB eh?..... Soooo passé! :D

gary
13-08-2008, 21:46
I can't remember, not being personally into manufactured speakers. I prefer to build my own as you know. I can find out from the owner. He's a colleague and I'll contact him tomorrow.

Greg there is a picture of my speakers on this fourum under strokes of genius if it was these ones I am sure you would remember them

lurcher
13-08-2008, 21:47
One thing I wondered, I can't remember if your amp is ultra linear or pentode Marco. If pentode that might make it more affected by a load with wide impedance swings.

The 3dB difference in sensitivity will mean the amp is working a lot harder for the same apparent vol, so that will be pushing the amp to spend a lot more time in B, and that will make it work the power supply a lot harder) in theory in class A the current draw is constant), so its possible the step down is having a effect. What are you using as the step down Marco? I know the ones I have made for folk were based around a 750VA custom wound autoformer, but I know some are using considerably smaller units.

Mike
13-08-2008, 21:49
One thing I wondered, I can't remember if your amp is ultra linear or pentode.

I think it's switchable Nick.

Mike
13-08-2008, 21:50
What are you using as the step down Marco?

I don't think he is since Anthony modified it.

gary
13-08-2008, 21:57
The other thing I would mention Marco as I told you the other night Alan the owner of Loud and Clear who you rate as a good dealer uses these speakers in his own set up which considering the choice available to him has got to say something

Marco
13-08-2008, 22:01
Mike,

The step-down transformer is still being used until Anthony upgrades the amp's mains transformers so they're safe on UK mains, particularly as my supply measures on average at 245V. All that's been done to the Yaqin so far is a change of valves, and a change of caps (to high quality Panasonic ones) after the original ones melted from me using it without a step-down tranny! :mental: :eyebrows:

I suspect the step-down tranny is having an effect on the amp's performance, indeed this is what I heard for the hour or so when I had it plugged directly into the mains until it blew up!

Nick,

I'm not sure what's in the step-down device. Ian (Walker) made it. I think he called it a 'bucking' transformer, or some such. It is quite heavy and has a pretty big tranny inside. The amp now runs in ultralinear mode after Anthony disabled the switching facility.

Greg,

No worries. If they weren't the same Proacs as Gary's (with the same specifications) then results may well have been different with the AR amps you heard. There are many different types of Proacs on the market.

Marco.

Marco
13-08-2008, 22:11
The other thing I would mention Marco as I told you the other night Alan the owner of Loud and Clear who you rate as a good dealer uses these speakers in his own set up which considering the choice available to him has got to say something


Gary,

There's no doubt that the Proacs are fine speakers - in the right system. I'm a fan of ribbon tweeters when done well as they have a hugely extended frequency response and can reveal subtleties in the music which conventional designs miss.

Marco.

Marco
13-08-2008, 22:21
Class AB eh?..... Soooo passé! :D

LOL. According to Anthony it runs mostly in Class A. He will give you the specifics. Once the amp is fully modified though it will be converted to a full Class A design :)

Are you bringing your WD88 to Chester? Btw, we need to discuss the specifics of you coming next Friday so give me a bell when you get a chance :smoking:

Marco.

gary
13-08-2008, 22:30
TTFN

Marco
13-08-2008, 22:33
Laters, dude :smoking:

Marco.

Mike
14-08-2008, 04:38
LOL. According to Anthony it runs mostly in Class A.

Just light hearted mockery mate. I tend to do that. :lolsign:

Yup, I'll be bringing the WD88 along for the ride.

Marco
14-08-2008, 07:58
Mockery we don't mind, mate - I'm well used to it! :lol:

Bell me tomorrow regarding next Friday's arrangements. It's my birthday today so we'll be out all day. Going for a walk around the Snowdonia hills and touring around the Lleyn Peninsula, then dinner here:

http://www.pyg.co.uk/

:cheers:

Marco.

Cotlake
14-08-2008, 22:07
OK, I now have a reply from Matt. He is using his Audio Research amps (seperate pre and power) with ProAc Response 2.5s with tweaked crossover. He also has ProAc Response 1's that also work within his system. I don't know if that helps or not, but it answers the question.

gary
15-08-2008, 07:14
Happy Birthday Marco have a good one mate :cool:

gary
15-08-2008, 07:35
Hi Greg the Response series from ProAc are a totaly different design from the Future series they are a standard square box and use ordinary tweeters where the futures are wedge shaped and use ribbons, While the Response series are good speakers from what I know of them they don't get into the Futures league until much futher up the range, ie the D100s they may however work better with valves that I can't really comment on as I have not heard them with valves, as far as I know the Future series were ProAc's old flagship range of which there were three models the 0.5s the 1s and the Big 2s, From what I have been told they were discontinued due to issues about the weight of the unit not bieng heavy enough for American market, Anyway whatever the reason it is a shame as they are really good speakers.

Marco
15-08-2008, 09:08
Happy Birthday Marco have a good one mate :cool:

Cheers, Gary. It was an excellent day! :)

Just seven more years until I hit the big five-o, though :(

Going back to Matt's Proacs, it would be interesting to know the sensitivity of his Response 2.5s...

Marco.

gary
15-08-2008, 12:40
The Following is from Proac Website

Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
Recommended Amplifiers: 20 to 200 watts
Frequency Response: 20hz to 30Khz
Sensitivity: 86db linear for 1 watt at 1 metre
Bass/Midrange Driver: ProAc 7” (178mm) carbon fibre unit in die-cast chassis,
with special surround and magnet system.
Tweeter: ProAc 3⁄4” (19mm) soft dome with honeycomb - wound
voice coil. Special damping and ferrofluid-cooled assembly.
Crossover: Highest quality components with pure oxygen-free
multi-strand copper wiring. Split for optional bi-wiring
and bi-amping.
Dimensions: 42” (1066mm) high on plinths with spikes.
83⁄4” (222mm) wide
10” (254mm) deep
Weight: 53lbs (24kg)/cabinet
Mode: Floorstanding on dedicated plinths.
Grille: Acoustically transparent crimplenee

gary
15-08-2008, 12:52
What is Interesting about this is the claimed frequency range goes down to 20hz where the Futures only go to 28hz and the recommended amp being from 20-200 watts instead of 30-150 watts with the Futures and that is before you start to consider modified crossovers

Marco
15-08-2008, 13:11
Sensitivity: 86db linear for 1 watt at 1 metre


So they're even less sensitive than the Futures... That's awfully low sensitivity for a floor-standing design. Normally only small stand-mounts are that insensitive.

And yet, according to Greg, they worked well with Audio Research valve amps.

Marco.

Steve Toy
15-08-2008, 13:21
86 linear (if it is) should work with more powerful valve amps. OK, the sensitivity is low so they won't go very loud but at least it's even and 8 ohms.

gary
15-08-2008, 15:43
The Following is the specs for the Futures


Nominal Impedance
8 ohms
Recommended Amplifiers
30 to 150 watts
Frequency Response
28hz to 30Khz
Sensitivity
87db linear for 1 watt at 1 metre
Bass Drivers
7” carbon fibre composite.

Midrange
4 1⁄2” coated cone with copper magnet assembly and phase plug.
Tweeter
Ribbon tweeter to ProAc specification.
Crossover
Military grade PCB with finest components and special branded cable.
Dimensions
40” (1016mm) high
17 1⁄2” (444mm) wide at base
12” (305mm) wide at top
9” (229mm) deep
Weight
37 1⁄2lbs (17kg) cabinet
Mode
Floorstanding
Grille
Acoustically transparent crimplene

Mike
15-08-2008, 16:37
Btw, we need to discuss the specifics of you coming next Friday so give me a bell when you get a chance :smoking:

Marco.

Hmmm... I've lost your phone number again! :scratch:

PM me please, and I'll give you a call.

Marco
15-08-2008, 18:06
Done, shweety!

Marco.

jandl100
15-08-2008, 21:12
I had ProAc Future point fives - it's probably my pics that Gary referred to in another section here. I must admit that I almost loved them, but just couldn't come to terms with their diffuse imaging in my system/room. I had a hell of a lot of trouble selling them on - best of luck if you hope to get 2k!

I must confess I am not a Naim fan (to say the least ;)) - I can barely imagine what they would sound like with the ProAcs - perhaps the slightly diffuse ProAcs plus the leading edge biased Naim gear would work rather well. I certainly found that my valve OTL monoblocks (40WPC) could drive them very well, as could the NVA A80 solid state monoblocks I had at the time - the valves sounded significantly better though - no problems with dynamics or volume at all. I'd say the Futures are an easy load.

Aha, I see that Marco has just revived my ProAc Future Point 5 thread in the Strokes of Genius section - so, we agree again, Marco! :)

Marco
15-08-2008, 21:25
Indeed we do, Jerry - apart from this bit:


I'd say the Futures are an easy load.


Maybe with the experience you had, but not with mine! It also seems the consensus of opinion is that they are anything but an easy load (at least not with some valve amps).

I would also add that the CDS3/282/Hicap/250 worked very well with the Futures. It's not necessarily the type of sonic signature I would choose but it possessed an effortless, un-fatiguing, musical quality that is sadly lacking in most systems I hear these days.

Marco.

jandl100
15-08-2008, 21:31
Bloody hell - no wonder the Yaqin didn't work! :lol:

You ain't gonna be able to use any kind of valve amp with those speakers Gary.


Marco.

Nope, certainly not true - but perhaps you need a decent valve amp! :lolsign:

Only jokin' !

jandl100
15-08-2008, 21:34
OTLs as a breed are notoriously fussy when it comes to speaker loads, so I am sure that mine are no different. They ran out of steam easily enough with my old Thiels, but really sounded fab with the Futures. Ah'm stickin' to ma guns that the Futures are an easy load. :)

Marco
15-08-2008, 21:43
LOL. If they're such an "easy load" then how come a 60W KT88 push-pull valve amp didn't seem think so, which incidentally drives my SP100s to *very* scary levels with no strain whatsoever?

Your definition of an "easy load" is obviously different from mine! ;)

Marco.

jandl100
15-08-2008, 21:48
LOL. If they're such an "easy load" then how come a 60W KT88 push-pull valve amp didn't seem think so, which incidentally drives my SP100s to *very* scary levels?

Marco.

Yup, that's a strange one - but I'd place a large bet that my OTLs would wimp out with a nasty load, and they didn't with the ProAcs. In fact, there were no shortcomings at all that I could hear compared to the high current NVA A80 monoblocks at 80WPC that I also used on them.

The guy I sold the Futures to was using a little Musical Fidelity E-series integrated amp (he was planning to upgrade) and that little amp drove the Futures well enough when I dropped them off at his place.

Yup, baffling.

Marco
15-08-2008, 21:57
Yup it is baffling, and incidentally I don't doubt your findings, but from reading the comments on PFM and here the feeling seems to be that the Futures are viewed as 'difficult' - certainly any speaker with 86 or 87db sensitivity isn't going to go really loud without some serious power.

Unless of course your definition of 'loud' is different to mine ;)

One thing that was obvious at Gary's was, regardless of any sonic and musical presentational issues, the Croft had to be turned up much higher than in my system to achieve the same volume, which ably demonstrates the relative inefficiency of the Futures compared to the SP100s.

Marco.

lurcher
15-08-2008, 23:09
Just thinking here, at Owsten if I remember Marco, your amp didn't sound that great on my open baffles, certainly not as good as I am sure it sounds on your speakers, maybe its the other way round, maybe the Futures are like the OB's a easy load, but the Yaqin needs something to get its teeth into?

jandl100
16-08-2008, 07:46
Just thinking here, at Owsten if I remember Marco, your amp didn't sound that great on my open baffles, certainly not as good as I am sure it sounds on your speakers, maybe its the other way round, maybe the Futures are like the OB's a easy load, but the Yaqin needs something to get its teeth into?

Interesting possibility - some kit is like that, for sure. I had a Krell 250a power amp that just sang into my Martin Logan CLS2z stats (a very nasty load) but when I swapped the stats for the very high efficiency Avantgarde Unos the Krell really sounded awful and got sold on pronto.

Maybe it's all about synergy! :)

.... and yes, Marco, it's quite possible that with my musical preferences focussed pretty much solely on classical/acoustic recordings, our definitions of 'loud' and/or dynamic may well be very different! ... especially in the bass department, perhaps. ;)

Marco
16-08-2008, 09:49
Just thinking here, at Owsten if I remember Marco, your amp didn't sound that great on my open baffles, certainly not as good as I am sure it sounds on your speakers, maybe its the other way round, maybe the Futures are like the OB's a easy load, but the Yaqin needs something to get its teeth into?

Nick, on your open baffles the Yaqin didn't just sound not "that great", it was total pants! I was sitting there perplexed wondering what on earth was going on...

*BUT* that was before I later realised that Steve had mistakenly connected the speaker cables to the 4 ohms taps instead of the 8 ohms ones :lolsign:

When I switched them over later in the evening using your speakers (when you were in the bar) the results were somewhat different ;)

In fact Michael (I think that was his name - he was the smallish chap who was dying to open up my Sony DAC to see what was inside) remarked if that was the Chinese push-pull amp we had been listening to earlier as it sounded so different, and in fact rather good!

It also outperformed Ian's EAR 509s that you rated so highly in your system, with his DBLs, but then the DBLs have a sensitivity of 92db... The Yaqin certainly had no problem whatsoever shifting its 15" cones and driving the speakers to deafening levels. I think it shows just how important it is to get the partnership right between valve amps and speakers - it is even more crucial than when using solid-state amps.

Jerry,

I too love acoustic recordings, but when I listen to that kind of stuff it's always at moderate levels as if played too loud you can spoil the effect. Classical is a different ball game - when crescendos kick in you need serious volume and a system with sufficient 'balls' to convey the intensity of the music and the dynamic shifts between loud and soft passages.

But some charging rock or dance music is what I like to listen to loud most :gig:

Marco.

lurcher
16-08-2008, 10:59
*BUT* that was before I later realised that Steve had mistakenly connected the speaker cables to the 4 ohms taps instead of the 8 ohms ones

When I switched them over later in the evening using your speakers (when you were in the bar) the results were somewhat different


OK, that would indicate that they are sensitive to changes in load impedance then. So maybe thats the problem?

By comparison a triode output stage would normally get a bit louder or quieter as they are much more load tolerant. There is some sonic differences, but not the night and day you seem to have had.

Thinking a bit more, if the feedback was from the 8ohm tap, than that would also make matching the load important I guess.

Marco
16-08-2008, 12:10
Yep, it would certainly seem so. I'm sure that damping and load tolerance are contributory factors.

It would be good to get to the bottom of it though because the Yaqin sounds fantastic in either my system, Ian's or Steve Toy's - the common denominator there of course is that the speakers used in each of those systems all have a sensitivity of 90db or more...

Marco.

lurcher
16-08-2008, 12:35
Hmm, but if it was just a matter of sensitivity then the 4 ohm result on mine don't make sense, as my speakers are 94dB

Marco
16-08-2008, 12:46
Yep, I suspect that it's *not* just a matter of sensitivity, Nick. All the evidence so far seems to suggest this.

The point I was making was that in my experience 90db+ speaker efficiency is (sonically) optimal when using valve amps, even before considering anything else. Basically, I personally wouldn't use speakers any less efficient than that with a valve amp. I just don't think you'll get the best results that way even if every other factor is taken into consideration and optimised.

If you want real 'grunt' and gravitas at seriously loud levels then using a valve amp with speakers of 86 or 87db is frankly pissing in the wind unless your room is the size of a rabbit hutch.

Marco.

Togil
16-08-2008, 12:51
The exception are the powerful amps from Jadis, JA200 and JA 500

Marco
16-08-2008, 12:59
Hans, I've heard Jadis amps (admittedly though not in my system) and their balance was too much towards the lush and syrupy side for my tastes, despite their high power rating. So for me the high power rating would be irrelevant.

I find this with most commercial valve amps I've heard from the likes of Unison Research, McIntosh, Audio Research, Prima Luna and Conrad Johnson, and as I've mentioned, Jadis. They all have that typical overly warm valve sound that I just don't like.

The Jadis look gorgeous, though!

The only commercial valve amps I've heard that I really like are EAR 509s and anything from Croft - neither of these amps have that stereotypical lush valve sound, and instead sound like good solid-state amps with simply a broader tonal palette and nicer midrange.

However it took listening to the Yaqin to dispel my negative preconceptions of valve power amps, based on my experiences with the commercial amps mentioned above which I didn't like, to introduce me to a different type of valve sound and the superb designs of Nick (Lurcher) and Anthony from Tube Distinctions. Both these guys know how to design valve power amps which don't sound 'valvey' in a traditional sense, and instead (with suitable speakers) have the drive, grip and clarity (for want of a better word) of good solid-state designs, particularly Anthony's stuff as he specialises in push-pulls which are ultimately more powerful. Nick's SET designs have less power but wonderful 'musicality' without sounding lush and syrupy.

This is why I believe that where it's really at with valve amps (without spending ludicrous amounts of money) is in the bespoke market, getting something made from scratch, or an entry-level commercial design (Chinese or otherwise) modified, by a reputable and experienced independent valve engineer, or by going the D.I.Y route. That way your money is going where it matters most - underneath the bonnet, instead of on superfluous fripperies such as fancy casings, or the cachet of owning a 'prestigious' commercial brand name. I only care about the former and achieving the highest sound-per-pound value. I have absolutely zero interest in the latter. Only fools and the gullible care about badges! :mental:

Marco.

gary
16-08-2008, 17:39
Hi Marco As I said earlier this room is the reason for the higher volume control with this same system at my brothers house it is loud with a quarter turn yet in here to achieve the same volume it has to be turned up considerably more, so from experience I know that this is not a sensitivty issue, suffice to say the yaquin proac combination didn't work to well at present it will be interesting to see what kind of difference it makes when you get round to doing further modifications, in the mean time I decided to buy 282 as it was so much better than 102, If I find a valve amp at a later date and decide to change then I won't have lost much on resale of 282 as they hold their value well.

Cotlake
16-08-2008, 19:23
Gary,

Marco made reference to DIY and as such kit amps. With a little bit of basic learning in particular on how to operate safely with highish voltages, I suggest this is the way to go. Apart from the big wad you will save, with a kit you have the ability to tune it into your system with the use of different makes of components, cable etc. Learning the 'knowledge' on this side of tweaking can take a while but there are plenty of us who can guide/assist on this. Experimenting is not an expensive business and if you don't like the sound of a component once fitted, on removal and change, you still retain that component for something else another time. Getting your head around DIY opens up a whole new and rewarding world in hi-fi. In your case I suggest a good place to start would be with a World Designs WD88VA kit although there are plenty of alternatives out there. See http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/AmpKits.html WD also has an excellent and supportive forum.

I was a complete novice several years ago. I don't have the knowledge of the likes of Nick (Lurcher) but it doesn't prevent me from having excellent kit at nice prices that I've tuned to present serious synergy and also looks presentable in the listening room (WAF). It doesn't take much to learn how to solder or operate safely and once done a whole new world of hi-fi is opened up to you.

You will be very welcome here.

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/index.php

Best wishes,

Greg

gary
16-08-2008, 23:33
Hi Greg
Maybe that HND I did in electrical and mechanical engineering will come in usefull after all :lolsign: been a few years but I know the basics it may well be an idea. Time to dig out my old notes and do some revision I think.

jandl100
17-08-2008, 07:44
I must admit that I do think the speaker sensitivity thing when matching to valve amps is a bit of a red herring. After all, Quad II valve amps drive the insensitive Quad 57 stats very well on 15WPC. OK - so that particular flavour of valve sound may not be to your taste if you aren't into the warm & syrupy side of things, but the amps drive the speakers well enough.

Much more important is impedance matching, for example, as Marco has already noted.

Marco
17-08-2008, 10:12
You're right, Jerry, but it also boils down to the ultimate loudness you're looking to achieve from your system.

Quad II valve amps may well drive the insensitive Quad 57 stats "very well" on 15W.P.C but they'll hardly go 'loud' - at least not what I call loud when playing the likes of Wolfmother or Led Zep at full tilt! :eyebrows:

That's why I would never use a valve amp with anything less than 90db sensitive speakers, which are also an undemanding load.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a head banger all the time :lol: ; in fact I mostly listen at low to moderate volumes, but it's a bit like driving a car with a big engine - you don't drive it full out all the time, but it's nice to know that the power is there in reserve when you need it - and so it is with the volume control on a hi-fi system.

86 or 87db efficient speakers with a fairly low powered valve amp I'm afraid just doesn't cut it ;)

Marco.

gary
09-09-2008, 17:43
Hi Jerry, As you have had a set I would ask did you find the Proacs to be a little bass light I am now considering changing the speakers as I do not know if they suit the room I am in or if they just need to be driven with more powerfull amps the yaquin Marco brought added to the bass wieght of the sound but not the control so I have the dilema get better amps or different speakers.

anthonyTD
09-09-2008, 20:52
hi all,
you also have to examine the complexity of the cross-overs, a lot of modern, and specifically partnered speakers, [ones that are tuned to work with one type of system] have very complicated cross overs, that sap power in order to gain test equipment flatness on graphs, this is not good for low to medium powered amps, also, extreeme impedence dips at specific frequencies is also common in a lot of mass produced modern speakers, ie, some of the modern spendor range [s8e] have a serious dip in impedence around the 1k mark, from 8 ohm to well under 4 ohm, unfortunetly you wont find this info on their site now as it seems to have been removed, but i remember seeing it, i also experienced what this dip actually does to the sound of a valve amp as i used to own a pair. as i have explained before in other threads,valve amplifiers need to see a constant impedence to work properly, if you have a serious dip, or a rise in impedence, you will get a loss of power in the paticular frequency range that the dip, or rise in impedence occurs, with transistor amps, the lower the impedence the amp see's the more power it will feed into it,[to a point most transistors amps dont like loads below 2 ohm] but the distortion factor usually rises. so, the spendors gained a high following with transistor amplifier owners, because at the serious dip in impedence at around 1k their amps would put more power into these speakers, giving a more forward and up front/exciting sound, but with a valve amp, it did the oposite!
speaker cables and valve amps also need to be matched, ie, low capacitance, low inductance, ie, simple designed cables work better with valve amps...:)
needless to say, its very important when buying a pair of speakers to look at the graphs and info provided to see if they have any odd anomilies in their frequency and impedence characteristics, also, to find out, and understand the type, and complexity of the cross-overs being used.
anthony,TD...

jandl100
14-09-2008, 07:16
Hi Jerry, As you have had a set I would ask did you find the Proacs to be a little bass light I am now considering changing the speakers as I do not know if they suit the room I am in or if they just need to be driven with more powerfull amps the yaquin Marco brought added to the bass wieght of the sound but not the control so I have the dilema get better amps or different speakers.

Hi Gary

Yes, I'd say the ProAcs were a bit challenged in the bass weight department - certainly (I would imagine) for a part-time headbanger like Marco. ;) It's really not what they are about. I can imagine the Future 2 (at a price!) doing this 'properly', but the fairly small bass driver in the point 5 really can't move that much air, I guess.

The most powerful amp I used them with were the NVA A80 monoblocks - high current solid state 80wpc - so maybe a bigger amp would have handled them more impressively in the bass department.

My Future point 5s were a real bugger to sell though. In the end I got a paltry £1250 on eBay. Almost no-one was interested in this Minty £3k, top range speaker from a well known and respected maker. :scratch: Well, that's not quite true - there were over 80 'watchers' on my eBay auction but only one bid. :( - lots of interest but no-one willing to part with the old £££!

Marco
15-09-2008, 07:59
Yes, I'd say the ProAcs were a bit challenged in the bass weight department - certainly (I would imagine) for a part-time headbanger like Marco ;)


LOL! Headbanger - moi? :eyebrows:

Oi just loikes fings to sound REAL with the scale and authority of live music, and for that you need propa bass from big cones to underpin the sound, you dig? :smoking:

Personally, I didn't find Gary's Proacs bass light - sure they don't have the visceral impact or sheer gut-wrenching 'heft' of my Spendors, but there was plenty of weight, IMO, and most importantly the bass played a tune.

The top end was also really sweet and extended, giving nice air and space and a 'crystalline' quality to voices and instruments, albeit the midrange was somewhat recessed. Overall I found their balance a touch too laidback for my tastes but I'm certain that when partnered synergistically with equipment that is suitably detailed and upfront sounding they'd be highly capable speakers.

Normally one would imagine that Naim equipment was ideal for the job, however I feel that their new range of gear is, as I've said many times in the past, much smoother sounding than the old stuff. Good as it is in terms of refinement, it lacks the 'Rottweiler' grip and up-and-at-em sound of the old 'olive' range, which got me into Naim gear and is the sound I loved and was used to when I had my CDS2/52/Supercap/135s.

As enjoyable as it was I couldn't believe how relaxed and smooth Gary's Naim set-up sounded. I would attribute most of this effect to the CDS3, as I know from experience how different this player presents music compared to Naim's older units. There are many reasons for this, which I won't go into here, but suffice to say that it's not a sound which appeals to my tastes. The only Naim CDPs I'd entertain using these days are the entry level CD5 versions and the quite superb (at a price!!) CDS555 - the stuff in between falls into 'no man's land', IMO.

Gary, I wish you well in your quest for new speakers. If you're intending to partner them with a valve amp audition very carefully with the amp of your choice in your room because as you know what works well in one system doesn't necessarily work well in another, and this is most certainly true in the relationship between valve amps and speakers. If you would like some suitable recommendations, mate, just ask :)

Marco.

gary
16-09-2008, 23:46
Hi Marco, you really need to hear this system in Jason's room - it is quite incredible the difference the room makes. Let me know the next time you are up this way and I will arrange it. In my room I just am not getting the bass scale and the in-your-chest power that I experience with the same system at my brother Jason's house, so it has to be room acoustics that are the problem. I have to turn volume up considerably higher in here to get same listening levels too. The 52 in range of naim gear is between 282 that I have and 252 of new gear, so should theoretically be better than what I currently use. The supercap also makes a big difference but with second hand prices of around 2K, so it should.

I am limited in my choice of power amp at the moment as until I have a power supply that will supply the pre I can not go beyond the nap 200 as after that they do not supply power to the pre. I am surprised by your comments on the midrange and this laid-back presentation as the naim gear was way better than the valves in speed, definition, clarity and realism. The valve gear was deeper sounding but it lacked control and for me, it was imo, unnatural sounding. Guitars, for example, sounded like cheap immitations in comparison to real instruments.

It may be that the speakers are partly to blame in that they may not work that great with your amps but I wonder if your own experiance has become coloured with the passage of time were you to go back and listen to high end naim kit again in your own room what would the results be. Hifi is, after all, a very personal experience and we all have our own ideas of what makes a good system. Again the type of music that we listen to is also a factor so it is very difficult to give a reliable overall picture on what to go for in hifi as everyone has very different views about what makes a good system. What you like is, by the sounds of things, different from what I like.

Individual views are highly subjective and neither of us are wrong it seems however we have differing views on what makes a good system.

Marco
17-09-2008, 10:01
Hi Gary,


Hi Marco, you really need to hear this system in Jason's room - it is quite incredible the difference the room makes. Let me know the next time you are up this way and I will arrange it.


Sounds good, mate. I'm always up for some shenanigans! I have a rather interesting valve amp to bring up this time too, which is a different ball game from the Yaqin ;) I'll be up before Xmas, probably around the 18-21st December.


In my room I just am not getting the bass scale and the in-your-chest power that I experience with the same system at my brother Jason's house, so it has to be room acoustics that are the problem. I have to turn volume up considerably higher in here to get same listening levels too.


Yep. You've mentioned this before and I don't doubt it.


The 52 in range of naim gear is between 282 that I have and 252 of new gear, so should theoretically be better than what I currently use. The supercap also makes a big difference but with second hand prices of around 2K, so it should.


So Jason has a 52? I like the 52, as it's what I used to have, and it's part of the old 'olive' range which I prefer the presentation of compared to the new stuff. What I'd like to hear is your CDX with his XPS2. I think you can do that, can't you? I know that an XPS2 can be used with a CDS2, and that an XPS can be used with both a CDX and CDS2. I reckon I'd prefer that combination to the CDS3. It's the CDS3 head unit which adds the 'smoothness' I don't like. I think Naim used a different DAC chip than in the CDS2 I used to have, amongst some other changes.


I am surprised by your comments on the midrange and this laid-back presentation as the naim gear was way better than the valves in speed, definition, clarity and realism. The valve gear was deeper sounding but it lacked control and for me, it was imo, unnatural sounding. Guitars, for example, sounded like cheap immitations in comparison to real instruments.


I did mention both to you at the time (the recessed midrange and the laid-back nature of the Naim gear). The midrange thing is I think attributable to the speakers, IMO it's just not their strong point; and I've already mentioned in detail about the Naim equipment.

I agree with your comments about the Yaqin in your system, but that wasn't what I was comparing the sound to - I was comparing the sound of your brother's Naim gear against the Naim system I used to own (CDS2/52/Supercap/135s) and other 'olive' based Naim systems I've heard, and undoubtedly it was quite laid-back sounding in comparison. Some of this was down to the speakers, though.

The fact is since the 'olive' range Naim have completely re-voiced their equipment to give a smoother, more refined, presentation so that it appeals to a wider audience. However, in my opinion, in doing so the equipment has lost the 'magic' it once had which gave it a unique and highly addictive sonic characteristic.

Now their gear has a much more 'mainstream' presentation that appeals more to the masses, which makes commercial sense of course, but it meant that previously long-time enthusiasts like me no longer found the presentation to our liking and left the 'fold', so to speak. It's largely the reason why I sold all my Naim gear and moved to valves. If Naim had continued to voice their new equipment in the same way as the 'olive' range things might have been very different. There was no viable upgrade path for me at the time within the budget I was willing to spend so I had to move on. Only a 552/500 would have made a difference, and I wasn't going there!


It may be that the speakers are partly to blame in that they may not work that great with your amps but I wonder if your own experiance has become coloured with the passage of time were you to go back and listen to high end naim kit again in your own room what would the results be. Hifi is, after all, a very personal experience and we all have our own ideas of what makes a good system. Again the type of music that we listen to is also a factor so it is very difficult to give a reliable overall picture on what to go for in hifi as everyone has very different views about what makes a good system. What you like is, by the sounds of things, different from what I like.

Individual views are highly subjective and neither of us are wrong it seems however we have differing views on what makes a good system.


Those are all valid points, Gary. But trust me I know what I'm talking about when it comes to Naim gear. I also don't think it's a case of you and I liking different things - it could be of course, but I suspect not. I think the Yaqin just sounded so dire in your system that it pretty much skewed our accurate judgement of anything else. I'll bring the TD Copper amp up in December and we'll see what happens then. It'll also be good to hear Jason's system and perhaps try the CDX/XPS2 thing I suggested.

I note that Steve had to edit your post. Were you on the bevvy and being a naughty boy again? :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

gary
17-09-2008, 12:01
Hi Marco

Sound's like a plan for December it will be nice to see you again.

Jason has the 282 now same as mine, It is my understanding of the naim range that leads me to believe that the Olive 52 should sit between the 282 and the 252 in the new range though that may well be a personal preference as some will prefer the Olive to the Black and vice versa.

I have listened to the XPS2 power supply on the CDX before so it can be done I have done this both at mine and when I had the CDX at Jasons for comparison, It does make a difference though at the time I was using the 102 and the difference was minimal it will be interesting to hear it again through the more revealing 282. What was heard the last time between CDX and CDS3 was a very similar sonic picture but the CDS3 was revealing more details and giving more bass control than the CDX.

That laid back sound is one of the very things I like about the system it is not harsh at all and I find it very easy to listen too, as for a recessed mid range ? I may have to hear what that means first before I comment, I have heard several systems that have a more forward mid range sort of presentation but this is where personal taste comes in I find that glarey and distracting to listen to.

I have not had the benefit of hearing your previous naim kit though to all intensive purposes it was pretty much the top of the range at the time and there is still considerable debate as to what is best Olive or Black, I think this is where personal taste comes in quite a lot of people prefer the Olive range over the newer Black range and vice versa this no doubt is down to the slightly different presentation you mention.

It may well be that after hearing the Yaqin it has coloured my opinion and hence the comments as to all intensive purposes the naim system that you used to own should have been way better even than Jasons so I was expecting a lot more from the valves considering you changed from what was a top flight naim system to use them.

:lolsign: Steve was good enough to sort my punctuation and split up the text into paragraphs for me, Bevvy what Bevvy HeHe now where's that bottle.:cool:


Gary

Marco
17-09-2008, 21:34
Hi Gary,


Sound's like a plan for December it will be nice to see you again.


Defo, mate. I'll look forward to it :)

I'm using a TD Copper amp now (shown below) so that should be a bit different from the Yaqin. It's about as 'top notch' as a 30W Class A KT88 push-pull valve amp gets:

http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/custom.htm#top


Jason has the 282 now same as mine, It is my understanding of the naim range that leads me to believe that the Olive 52 should sit between the 282 and the 252 in the new range though that may well be a personal preference as some will prefer the Olive to the Black and vice versa.


I would contend, based on experience, that a 52 is every bit as good as a 252, and as such is only bettered by a 552. I did the back-to-back comparisons with my 52 when the 252 first came out. There is also no difference in the 'olive' Supercap compared to the new one, apart from the case and logo.


I have listened to the XPS2 power supply on the CDX before so it can be done I have done this both at mine and when I had the CDX at Jasons for comparison, It does make a difference though at the time I was using the 102 and the difference was minimal it will be interesting to hear it again through the more revealing 282.


Indeed. I think you'll find that the results will be different this time with a much more transparent and revealing preamp. I like the 'grittier' presentation of the CDX, particularly when used with an off-board PSU. I know people who prefer a CDX/XPS to a CDS2, and also a CDX2/XPS2 to a CDS3, and their observations are valid.


That laid back sound is one of the very things I like about the system it is not harsh at all and I find it very easy to listen too, as for a recessed mid range ? I may have to hear what that means first before I comment, I have heard several systems that have a more forward mid range sort of presentation but this is where personal taste comes in I find that glarey and distracting to listen to.


I think we're getting into semantics as to what is considered as "laid-back" or "recessed". There's little point debating it on a forum. Basically the sound I'm used to from the Spendors is more tonally neutral, with the midrange projected into the room more than in your system, but without being in your face or "glarey", as you refer to.


I have not had the benefit of hearing your previous naim kit though to all intensive purposes it was pretty much the top of the range at the time and there is still considerable debate as to what is best Olive or Black, I think this is where personal taste comes in quite a lot of people prefer the Olive range over the newer Black range and vice versa this no doubt is down to the slightly different presentation you mention.


Yep, which is best is horses for courses but there's no doubt that Naim made the right decision to launch the 'Reference range' as far as commercial reasons are concerned. I just preferred their stuff when it had more niche appeal, even in an aesthetic sense. I loved the old Naim logo and the rubber coved knobs, etc. My favourite look for Naim gear is that of the shoe box-sized NAC72, or the Nait 2. I dig retro!


It may well be that after hearing the Yaqin it has coloured my opinion and hence the comments as to all intensive purposes the naim system that you used to own should have been way better even than Jasons so I was expecting a lot more from the valves considering you changed from what was a top flight naim system to use them.


Good point, but remember my judgement of the Yaqin against my previous Naim gear was based on the results I got at home. If the Yaqin had sounded as it did in your system in my system the Naim gear would have stayed put!


Steve was good enough to sort my punctuation and split up the text into paragraphs for me, Bevvy what Bevvy HeHe now where's that bottle.:cool:


I never noticed any. Did you hide it all away the last time I was up? :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

gary
17-09-2008, 22:09
Oh no I really hope I don't like it I will never get the missus to agree to having that in the livingroom she thought the yaqin was retro looking LOL

Marco
17-09-2008, 22:18
Hehe... It's a work of art, dude, even if you don't dig retro :smoking:

I don't think Anthony would have the time or patience to build another one anyway.

But I suspect the key to your valve amp quest, should you go in that direction, may lie in you getting something built from scratch to your own spec by one of our resident valve electronics gurus, or perhaps a kit built from World Designs. You'll pay less money than you would for a commercial amp and the performance will be much better.

Marco.