Noisy Caiman relays

[bpcairns]

Hi, This is aimed at Stan but I'd welcome any opinion.

My Caiman DAC squeaks between tracks. It is not coming from the speakers, it is coming from the DAC itself. I can make it squeak by pausing the music. I am 99.99% sure that it is the muting relays.

My question is, If I remove them and put a wire link across the pins that are joined by the reed switch (The outside pins), do I also have to put a 1K resistor across the pins that carry the activation signal (inside pins) or can I leave them disconnected? Anything else I should be aware of in doing this? Are both sides of both components used? It may only be one of the relays that is noisy but I can't tell so intend to remove both.

My friend has another Caiman that does not suffer this problem. You can just hear his if you stick your ear to the box.

Please don't tell me this is a bad idea, I can't live with the noise as I can hear it from the other side of the room with the DAC closed and these components seem to me to perform no particularly useful purpose.

Many thanks for any help with this.

[slate]

Mine comes with a twirp sound every time; sometimes I ignore it, some times I consider starting to re-rip my collection and use cue sheets.... then it would only happen once pr CD:rolleyes:

[HighFidelityGuy]

I can't comment on the technicalities of removing the relays, I'll leave that to someone more knowledgable. However, I do think there's a slight flaw in your plan... The relays are there to stop noises that come from the DAC chip output from getting to your speakers between tracks. So by bypassing them to remove one set of noises you could be allowing a new set of noises to come through.

It seems odd that some people experience this more than others. Perhaps it's dependant on the transport being used. Either way I'd have a chat with Stan and see if he can shed more light on the issue before you go removing relays. :)

[bpcairns]

Hi guys and thanks for your comments.

Re-ripping the collection is an interesting idea, hadn't thought of that. Not 100% sure it would fix the problem, I get the noise when I pause the sound so any period of silence triggers it, but easily verified by ripping one CD to try. Gapless CDs which are splIt into tracks don't cause the problem though.

Hifidelityguy-

One of Stans own mods involves soldering coupling capacitor onto a point past these relays, no-one has reported a problem, in fact I read somewhere on here that the main purpose of these is to give very good test results for signal to noise in synthetic tests. So it looks good when compared to others.

The noise is the mechanical reed switch turning on then off. A different transport makes no difference. When the sound stops, the DAC "squeaks", "twirp" would serve as well as a description.

I've tried my DAC in another system with both CD and a different PC feeding it (SPDIF) it squeaks every time the music stops, either at the end of tracks or if the music is paused. My friends identical Caiman does not make the noise. (well it does but it is much quieter and can't be heard unless you stick your ear very close to the DAC. ) Incidentally playing a gapless CD like Pink Floyd's The Wall there is no problem, The music never stops so the relay never squeaks. I'm convinced that I have (probably one) particularly noisy component in my particular DAC and any benefit it is supposed to provide is outwieghed by the component being faulty. I could buy a replacement and it MIGHT be quieter but I'm 100% certain a wire link will make no noise at all....

[HighFidelityGuy]

Hifidelityguy-

One of Stans own mods involves soldering coupling capacitor onto a point past these relays, no-one has reported a problem, in fact I read somewhere on here that the main purpose of these is to give very good test results for signal to noise in synthetic tests. So it looks good when compared to others.

The noise is the mechanical reed switch turning on then off. A different transport makes no difference. When the sound stops, the DAC "squeaks", "twirp" would serve as well as a description.

I've tried my DAC in another system with both CD and a different PC feeding it (SPDIF) it squeaks every time the music stops, either at the end of tracks or if the music is paused. My friends identical Caiman does not make the noise. (well it does but it is much quieter and can't be heard unless you stick your ear very close to the DAC. ) Incidentally playing a gapless CD like Pink Floyd's The Wall there is no problem, The music never stops so the relay never squeaks. I'm convinced that I have (probably one) particularly noisy component in my particular DAC and any benefit it is supposed to provide is outwieghed by the component being faulty. I could buy a replacement and it MIGHT be quieter but I'm 100% certain a wire link will make no noise at all....

I've done the mod you mentioned (passive mod) and I don't have any problems with obtrusive noises between tracks as such but I recently noticed that I do get a fast high pitched clicking noise constantly while no music is playing for longer periods. This is enough to stop my power amps from going into standby if I don't turn the volume down on my preamp. These are the types of issues you can expect by bypassing the relays.

Once I get round to it I'll be installing a gator board and reinstating the muting relays.

It sounds to me like you just have some bad relays. I guess some are noisier than others due to manufacturing tollerances. Based on my experience I would replace the relays with new ones and hope they were quieter. But at the end of the day it's up to you. You just need to understand that you may be trading one set of noises for another. :)

[bpcairns]

OK, I've removed one of the relays (the one that runs lengthwise along the PCB) and it seems to have fixed the problem. It seems that it was only necessary to make the links between pins 1 and 7 and pins 2 and 8. The pins in the middle can be ignored.

I'll post a picture if I can figure out how.

I note Hifidelityguy's comment about the DAC passing a signal that could interfere with the poweramps' standby. Not an issue for me as I'm pretty sure my venerable Linn LK280 doesn't do anything as sophisticated as standby but it may be an issue for others.

My DAC now makes no noise when moving between tracks or pausing. Haven't listened to it enough to determine if it sounds different. If it does it isn't obvious but I'll report back if further listening reveals anything.

[brassman]

Hi,

I am new to the forum, and I have the same problem with my Caiman. Can you put pictures about your solution? and a greater detail to try to correct the problem?

Thanks in advance

[StanleyB]

You can try the folowing mod. The resistors are 18K.

http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/aos/relaybridge.jpg

[paul_cz]

Stanley,
what does that mod do? Does it bypass the Relay?

cz

[bpcairns]

On further listening I discovered that I could occasionaly hear the second relay (I think), so it is gone now as well.



Here is a picture with the relays removed and replaced by wire links.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3838&stc=1&d=1298819796

You'll notice I've ignored the inside contacts, don't seem to be needed for anything. Only given this a quick listen so far but it sounds identical to my freinds caiman.

Sorry Stan, by the time I saw your suggestion I'd already done this. Not sure what your suggestion achieves though, surely the relays will still switch on and off with these resistors in place? If that's right then it wouldn't fix my problem. Am I missing something about how these relays work and what they do?

[jeddycole]

Hi,
Adding 18k resistors to the relays has not stopped the clicking noise in my case. I suppose that next i will endeavour to replace these relays with wire links.

[Reid Malenfant]

Hi,
Adding 18k resistors to the relays has not stopped the clicking noise in my case. I suppose that next i will endeavour to replace these relays with wire links.
Hi Jared, would you mind popping into the welcome section of the forum & introducing yourself please? :)

You were asked politely to do so on the activation email that you received & subsequently activated your account with :eyebrows:


Thanks in advance! :cool:

[Stratmangler]

You can try the folowing mod. The resistors are 18K.

http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/aos/relaybridge.jpg

I tried this a while ago Stan.
The relays still make the noise.

[StanleyB]

In the payback signal or inside the case?

[Stratmangler]

I'll dig out an offending CD and double check, but I think it's both.

[jeddycole]

Hi,
Adding 18k resistors to the relays has not stopped the clicking noise in my case. I suppose that next i will endeavour to replace these relays with wire links.

May I say that contrary to my previous post, adding resistors as per the photo has resolved the problem afterall. I didn't realise at first for the following reason: The DAC now works when it appears to be switched off. The effect of pressing the power button is now to turn off the LEDs and reduce the volume slightly. The unit functions in this way without the noise which, to clarify, was coming from inside the case and was never present in the signal. I hope this may be of help to someone else.

[Stratmangler]

In the payback signal or inside the case?
I'll dig out an offending CD and double check, but I think it's both.


It's both.

[StanleyB]

There is nothing that can be done about the mechanical noise that relays make I am afraid. Noiseless electronic relays are however not suitable for audio use. So the mechanical noise from the relays inside the DAC, when the relays are triggered, can't be defeated.

[isj1202]

No, this is not Stan, but a friend of mine that I helped with the alteration and comparing his Caiman to my 7520 to diagnose problems (which had quieter relays). We both still use the DACs every day, him in his main system and me in my computer room.

Need to save for a Bushmaster though to replace the DacMagic in my main system. (Need volume control in computer room)

Iain

[StanleyB]

Is that you Stan? You have been caught out posing as different members on different forums, so find it interesting with new members starting several Bushmaster threads.

I just saw this post and feel very much insulted by it.
On which sites have I been posting as different members, and have I been caught out doing so? Can you provide the wider AoS community with some more details to back up these slanderous claims of yours?



In fact there is no wonder that a sub-forum has had to be created due to the huge amount of discussion!
I had nothing to do with the sub-forum. I don't own any bit of AoS, and neither have I got a say in how it is run and made up. I am merely a registered member just like the majority of us here. The only privileged status that I have is that I am registered as a trade member. But that still has no bearing on the sub-forum. I can see you getting in trouble with the admin team since you are implying complicity and underhand tactics between them and me.




I have used Beresford DACs for several years including second systems & almost feel like I need to purchase a Bushmaster, spend some time with it and compare it to my own DAC the internal marketing on this forum is so strong...!
I have always encouraged buyers of my DAC to consult this forum for advise on matters relating to anything about HIFI and HIFI equipment, not just about DAC. It should not come as a surprise then if a new member, who has bought one of my DACs, begins with a thread or introduction that relates to the product that brought them here in the first place.
It has nothing to do with internal marketing. Nobody has ever been asked by me to mention my DAC on AoS as part of a marketing strategy.





EDIT: oh, you haven't posted for over a year, back when you were posting in a few Beresford threads.
I assume that you are still referring to the poster bpcairns. I can assure you that I am not bpcairns. I assume that it is a former customer of my who lives in Johnstone. I shall send him an email and see if he is still about and can respond to you with regards to your comments. I have no idea why he has not posted for over a year. I do know that a couple of my customers have passed away over the years, and one passed away just a month or two after first registering here earlier this year. Other people have since moved on and bought a different DAC, or left AoS for various reasons.

[StanleyB]

The head-fi accusations have been discussed on AoS over the years and at length. I suggest that you do a search on that before repeating unsubstantiated allegations posted by the owner of that site 5 years ago. I have had no right of reply on that sire to defend myself, nor did I have any chance to retrieve my private messages from that site that clearly show the intend of the site owner to extract payment from me for having a presence on his site.

AoS offered me a right to reply here in over the years, which Marco would have no problem in confirming.

With regards to the AVSforum: After reading the thread it is quite clear that is an accusation levelled against a member called TommyS who mentioned that he ordered the DAC one day and received it the next. All my UK customers know that I use Royal Mail Next Day delivery service and my speed of delivery has frequently been praised. People in other countries might find that a strange possibility, which is reflected in their attack on that member and accusation of all sort of things.
Coming to DIYAudio: I have not been banned on that site and neither have I ever posted anything there that relates to my DAC in any shape or form. I look forward to a more detailed disclosure from you on the correct facts regarding DIYAudio.

You are merely repeating accusations without any evidence to support any of your claims. I hope you got a good solicitor.

[MartinT]

I can see no evidence of Stan posting under different names. In fact, anyone who knows how the internet works should understand that any two people with the same service provider can and do easily share the same IP address via a mechanism called NAT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAT).

I am withdrawing the inflammatory posts but will leave Stan's response intact as it is for him to leave it stand or withdraw it.

I need to make one thing clear: the idea of moving all Beresford threads into one sub-forum was mine and it was me who performed the thread moves. I sent Stan a courtesy message to let him know what we were doing, that's all. We did the same thing recently with Technics turntables, both for the same reason: to keep the high volume of traffic pertaining to those subjects in one place.

We do not tolerate trade bias in the Art of Sound forum.

[Yomanze]

OK, in light of the comments I would like to retract my usage of the wording "caught out" and believe that "accused" is a more truthful reflection of what has gone on here. It was incorrect of me to assume that the forum posts that I showed consituted "evidence" as MartinT pointed out.

I would also like to point out that I will not be pushing this any further & apologise for any issues that I have caused.

[ZebuTheOxen]

In fact, anyone who knows how the internet works should understand that any two people with the same service provider can and do easily share the same IP address via a mechanism called NAT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAT).
Sorry to be anal but NAT is used for converting public address ranges (Your ISP provided IP) to private address ranges (10.x.x.x, 172.16.x.x - 172.31.x.x, 192.168.x.x).

ISPs use something subtly different called Route Aggregation allowing them to converge and then route large subnets together (Typically chunks of 16000~ IPs and greater).

User authentication is carried out by unique line ID's, although this is entirely down to the ISP in question. Some use NAC (Network Access Control) solutions, while others will use systems like RADIUS.

[MartinT]

Yes, thanks Tom. I was being necessarily simplistic with the message that public IPs are frequently shared and/or reallocated.

[bpcairns]

I just noticed this thread after a while.

I can confirm that I am not Stan, though I think that is established already.

I can also confirm I am not dead :). I am also still a customer of Stans, I very recently bought a bushmaster but still use my heavily modified caiman in a second system.

I had stopped posting in this thread, or any other, because the issue I had raised was fixed for me. Still lurk about a bit though in other threads. I only post when I feel I have something useful to contribute.

Still, the last time I looked here I was the only one with this problem so it is comforting to see that others were experiencing the same thing. With the relays removed my caiman still works perfectly and is totally silent when it is supposed to be. If anyone else has benefitted from my posts and the picture then I am well pleased.

Brian