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MartinT
10-08-2008, 23:12
I've just taken delivery of these fantastic speakers and would love to wax lyrical about them. Is anyone interested?

snapper
10-08-2008, 23:31
Of course,everybody's always interested.

Well I am.

But I'm pished.

Too much :cool:

KMair
11-08-2008, 00:02
Start waxing away! I heard the Be-10's and Really love them. They are a hell of a value IMO. My dealer bought a pair of Be-20's shortly after I purchased my Tiny Dancers from him. He and I are thrilled with our speakers to say the least.

Cheers!

leo
11-08-2008, 00:47
I got a pair of the tinydancer BE718's, would have liked the BE-20's but too big for this room:eyebrows:

Steve Toy
11-08-2008, 02:44
I've heard a couple of pairs of Usher speakers. They are rather nice.

jandl100
11-08-2008, 06:53
At any Show that has them, the Usher room is always one of my faves - always musical and un-hyped - & don't forget to post some nice pics as well! :)

MartinT
11-08-2008, 07:49
The Ushers were installed by three men representing the dealer (Audio Affair) and importer (Hi-Audio). They are large and physically imposing speakers and very heavy. However, they don't look as big once in position due to their swept-back design and narrow frontal aspect.

The finish is superb and the bases very sturdy with large brass adjustable cones. There is a compartment behind the name plate which can be filled with lead shot ballast for even tighter bass.

They replaced my previous JM Lab Mezzo Utopia and REL Studio II combination. The first thing I ascertained is that the REL subwoofer is completely superfluous so I disconnected it and took it out of the room. The bass depth and power from the Be-20 is quite amazing.

The manual says that I need to get about 200 hours onto the speakers to fully run them in. I am also using new Kimber link cables (replacing the supplied link bars) since I use a single main cable run of Kimber Select 3035 and the Ushers have split crossovers. I certainly heard a big improvement in the first 24 hours as the speakers acclimatised and the drivers loosened up.

First impressions: very clean, transparent, tonally neutral sound. Fantastic retrieval of detail. Wonderful portrayal of the soundstage with better imaging and focus than the Mezzos. They don't sound big but the underlying structure to the music is formidable. The sense of occasion in, say, a big piano concerto is amazing with the piano sounding very lifelike and a wealth of tiny cues putting you there with the musicians. Organ has terrifying power and can easily load up the room while the Chord and Ushers hardly break into a sweat.

I am, as you can read, very impressed and excited at my purchase. I wish I wasn't at work now and look forward to going home to dig out more favoured and rarely played CDs. I have heard something new on everything I've played so far.

Photos to come...

MartinT
11-08-2008, 07:51
http://www.mtc.nildram.co.uk/images/UsherSystem.jpg

http://www.mtc.nildram.co.uk/images/Usher Be-20.jpg

Neil McCauley
11-08-2008, 13:19
Usher? Most interesting. Maybe I should take a look? Any idea who is representing these in London? Thanks.

Howard


---//---

MartinT
11-08-2008, 13:36
Any idea who is representing these in London?

Howard, as far as I know there is no-one. That is why I had to travel up to Birmingham (Audio Affair) to listen to them and buy them. The importer is Hi-Audio:
http://www.hiaudio.co.uk/

Mike
11-08-2008, 15:18
I've never heard any Usher loudspeakers, but I've heard quite a lot about them. All good! :)

John
11-08-2008, 15:36
I heard a few and think they really are very good speakers. After they bed in they really should be playing great music. By the way really nice system

Togil
11-08-2008, 16:52
Martin,

I noticed your dealer does both Chord and Nuforce ( imported by Hiaudio).

Have you by any chance have had the opportunity to hear the Nuforce 9SE V2 on the Ushers ? I'm currently looking for something to improve on my Nuforces but I know it will be difficult

MartinT
11-08-2008, 17:13
Have you by any chance have had the opportunity to hear the Nuforce 9SE V2 on the Ushers ?

No, I'm afraid not although I saw them at Audio Affair when I listened to the JM Lab versus Ushers. I couldn't comment on a comparison but I can tell you that I've heard my Chord SPM-1200E against a pair of Linn Klimax and a Krell FPB-something in my system and the Chord was my preferred amp of them all. It really is a tremendous piece of technology - so compact for the power output available - and very, very transparent given the right ancillary components.

Steve Toy
12-08-2008, 00:26
The distributor for the above brands, Dr. Hugh Unsworth is registered with this site as Huge the Bear after I met him at Audio Affair a few weeks back. Hopefully he'll come along and have something to say.

MartinT
12-08-2008, 06:53
I found a supplier of lead shot - ballast for yacht keels. I've ordered 60kg (my best guess) for delivery tomorrow.

MartinT
14-08-2008, 10:03
I have now added 30kg of lead shot into the bottom compartment of each speaker. The speakers are so large and immovable that I couldn't tip them back to make it easier, so I ended up using an L-shaped plastic pipe and funnel and pouring it in while moving the other end from the rear to the front of the compartment, poking it in further with a piece of 4x2. Those compartments are *large*: I reckon they are only half full with 30kg
in each.

The difference I hear now is that the bass has tightened considerably to become amazingly deep and taught without any boominess at all, but with incredible power from the four 11" drivers. I was just playing Dire Straits' Sultans of Swing and, for the first time, I could easily hear the bass drum and leading edge of plucked electric bass as two separate sounds with texture and space around them.

jandl100
14-08-2008, 10:55
Very nice. I suspect you have a superb pair of speakers there.

.... I wonder how they would get on with valves? :)

Togil
14-08-2008, 15:15
Very nice. I suspect you have a superb pair of speakers there.

.... I wonder how they would get on with valves? :)

The valves would have to be pretty special to improve on the Chord, especially if you want the stunning undistorted organ sound Martin mentioned earlier.

Hydie
14-08-2008, 15:38
I found a supplier of lead shot - ballast for yacht keels. I've ordered 60kg (my best guess) for delivery tomorrow.
Hi, how much did the shot cost and what about transport costs?

MartinT
14-08-2008, 16:37
Hi, how much did the shot cost and what about transport costs?

It cost £150 + VAT including delivery. That was the best price I could find, from http://www.leadballast.co.uk.

MartinT
14-08-2008, 16:40
The valves would have to be pretty special to improve on the Chord

Exactly right. I have played with several butch valve amps over the years from Radford, TVA, Dynavector and Croft. None would have the welly to do what the Chord does, although perhaps the rare Dynavector monoblocks came closest.

leo
14-08-2008, 16:53
.... I wonder how they would get on with valves? :)


IMHO NO! Ushers like an amp with an iron fist grip, valves are nice with the right speakers but these need controlled power and grip to prevent muddy bass, any valve amp wouldn't be totally comfortable with these speakers

Cotlake
14-08-2008, 20:38
It cost £150 + VAT including delivery. That was the best price I could find, from http://www.leadballast.co.uk.

:no:

As an alternative, consider contacting a local sheet lead cutter/fabricator/supplier who cut to customer order. In the coarse of which the cutting produces lead swarf in tiny cube shapes. Offer to sweep their floor for a fiver into the tea kitty. That's what I did to fill the stands for my daughters speakers.

jandl100
15-08-2008, 21:18
The valves would have to be pretty special to improve on the Chord, especially if you want the stunning undistorted organ sound Martin mentioned earlier.

Well, I must confess that I am not a Chord amp fan. I find them a bit too up-front for my delicate sensibilities. ;) A nice butch valve amp would definitely be on the Must Try list for the Ushers - Usher themselves do an impressive looking Class A ss amp, or they used to at any rate.

Perhaps it all depends on your musical taste and the kind of presentation you prefer. At any rate, I've certainly not tried any Ushers, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about! :)

MartinT
15-08-2008, 22:35
I find them a bit too up-front for my delicate sensibilities

One man's up-front is another man's perfect soundstaging. I agree that the Chord tends to image around and in front of the plane of the speakers, but then so does a Leak Stereo 20. Flatter sounding amps like most NADs I've heard, or Quad valves, image behind the plane of the speakers. It's a matter of taste, but I don't think of the Chord's presentation as in any way harsh - just crystal clear.

jandl100
16-08-2008, 08:00
That's fine. :)

By 'up front' I was really more meaning the tonal presentation. But it all comes down to personal preference ... and system synergy shouldn't be forgotten either! I've heard Chord amps sound pretty screechy when used into the 'wrong' speakers - just too darn 'open' for their own good. :)

I had a dem on a Chord amp (perhaps the old 1600??, I can't remember exactly) when I had my stupidly efficient Avantgarde Unos (100dB/W or more) - oooh, no thanks! :o the treble was unbearable for me. You could also hear the switch mode PS chuffing away in the background! :scratch: But on less 'volatile' speakers the Chord may have worked very well. Horses for courses, I guess.

Togil
16-08-2008, 08:44
There is that question whether the switched mode power supplies affect other components in a system. I have the same problem with my Nuforce amps.

tfarney
16-08-2008, 09:21
What problem? What is the audilble effect?

Tim

Togil
16-08-2008, 09:43
Presumably similar to the effects of noise in the power supply.

My local Nuforce dealer claims that it explains why the Nuforce amp isn't that good in complex orchestral passages

leo
16-08-2008, 13:37
Presumably similar to the effects of noise in the power supply.

My local Nuforce dealer claims that it explains why the Nuforce amp isn't that good in complex orchestral passages


Still would take a good linear supply over any SMPS personally especially with an amp, problem is getting a good linear with least amount of sag usually means big and heavy

The Nuforce amps are pretty compact amps to say what output they can chuck out
Theres some pretty nasty articles about the Nuforce amps on the web which I find a little unfair, I thought they sounded pretty decent tbh, not bad for classD eh:) even though classD is more efficient than say A/B they still need a good stiff PSU to sound their best, things like complex orchestral tests the best of amps

MartinT
16-08-2008, 19:11
I have never heard the effects of Chord's SMPS in listening. There is so much headroom that it never seems to be working hard. I heard a comment from a dealer once about 'hearing that switched mode power supply' and I don't know what he was on about - of course he wasn't a Chord dealer. It could well be that Chord's ultra-clean presentation just doesn't suit some systems.

My combination of Pass Labs X1 and Chord SPM-1200E are a dream, connected balanced of course, but are in no way forgiving of a poor source.

Togil
16-08-2008, 19:17
Are you tempted to try Pass Labs' new XA 100.5 ?

MartinT
16-08-2008, 19:39
Are you tempted to try Pass Labs' new XA 100.5 ?

Possibly, as well as Ayre's MX-R monoblocks and Chord's own SPM-1400E monoblocks. However, they are expensive and will need to be something very special to make me move away from the SPM-1200E.

Marco
16-08-2008, 19:57
Hi Martin,

I hope you're enjoying your new speakers. I've always rated Usher - superb 'no compromise' designs which outperform many more expensive loudspeakers from manufacturers with arguably a more 'famous' badge. I heard the Dancer Be-20s at a dealer in Darlington a couple of years ago and was very impressed by them. In fact if I were to ever sell my SP100s the Be-20s would be high up on my list.

Enjoy! :)

Marco.

MartinT
16-08-2008, 20:55
Thank you, Marco. I am so impressed with them and they're still getting better. They also look gorgeous, which doesn't hurt at all. My system is making wonderful music at the moment and I'm afraid the housework is being rather neglected.

jandl100
17-08-2008, 07:25
What problem? What is the audilble effect?

Tim

On my 100dB/W speakers with the Chord amp there was an obvious chuff-chuff-chuff.... always present in the background. Probably not audible on speakers less than 91/92 dB/W though - i.e. fine on most speakers.

Marco
17-08-2008, 10:21
On my 100dB/W speakers with the Chord amp there was an obvious chuff-chuff-chuff....


Are you sure that wasn't you 'doing things' whilst reading your porn mags? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Cotlake
17-08-2008, 18:02
On my 100dB/W speakers with the Chord amp there was an obvious chuff-chuff-chuff....

That sounds like a fault known as motor boating which occurs when the amp has become instable. It suggests the high efficient speakers are not suitable for the Chord amp.

Steve Toy
19-08-2008, 00:59
The problem we had at Owston (I believe, regarding Marco's Yaqin amp exhibited at there and probably Chesterfest in the near future) is that we have some great push-pull designs that need to see a certain load in order to be stable.

So: we load (or rather we don't) these amps with speakers so efficient that they could probably be driven direct from source without any amp at all and the SET afficionadios rub their hands with glee at the resulting crap sound from the push-pull.

Stick a single-figured W/c SET amp in and the sound through the speakers at, say 98+ dB, and we get a bloody good sound. Granted. The push-pull into same speaks sounds utterly shite cos the poor amp reacts as if it's got nowt attached to it...

Yesterday we listened to my amp, a push-pull into Marco's Spendors via two different valve pre designs and the sound/music was so fucking good in terms of drive, big dynamics as well as small-order subtleties and sheer timing that we all felt that there was little around anywhere that could seriously touch this combo for music-amplifying abilities.

An amplifier is meant to do just that; amplify. I'm beginning to think that these very low-powered SET amps don't amplify at all, they simply condition the signal from source to speakers just as an active pre often chucking out more power than a SET amp.

The SET/high efficiency speaker model may well be a Very Good Route to audiophile nirvana but unless it offers the requisite drive, energy and sheer passion from our musicians (whose talent has been embedded somehow in the recording) through the speakers of choice into our listening rooms for our enjoyment, that I'm wondering if it is actually going to get the right emotional responses at the end with all types of music.

My mind and ears are open to the possibilities but I'm hoping that the high-efficiency speaker/low powered amp route is actually more than a hobbyist's solution seeking a problem best known to themselves.

Marco
19-08-2008, 09:15
That's an interesting hypothesis, Steve. I'm sure that the SET aficionados amongst us will offer an, erm, alternative opinion ;)

Regarding yesterday's session (and I don't wish to hijack Martin's thread) it was once again obvious how very special Anthony's TD/AOS designed amp is in conjunction with the Croft or his own grounded grid preamp.

If you want to discuss this further perhaps it would be better to start another thread? :)

Marco.

P.S Those Hecos have just gotta come with you to Chester...

Steve Toy
19-08-2008, 11:36
I guess my above rant is fuelled by the fact that I may have to cart my bloody big Hecos to the Chesterfest and risk marking their polished lacquered finish in order to demonstrate what good push-pull and active preamplification can really do without it falling on its arse into super-sensitive open baffles/horns.

Will someone be bringing a sensible (read more conventional) pair of speakers to the Fest, one that is, say, sub 95dB?

The purpose of bringing them is not to take part in some kind of silly competition but to have a bit of a bake-off. I understand that Nick has designed and made a rather good preamp that should at least be heard in this particular context.

I'd also like to hear what a DIY DAC may sound like when fed by the Bel Canto transport.

Iain Sinclair
19-08-2008, 17:54
An amplifier is meant to do just that; amplify. I'm beginning to think that these very low-powered SET amps don't amplify at all, they simply condition the signal from source to speakers just as an active pre often chucking out more power than a SET amp.

The SET/high efficiency speaker model may well be a Very Good Route to audiophile nirvana but unless it offers the requisite drive, energy and sheer passion from our musicians (whose talent has been embedded somehow in the recording) through the speakers of choice into our listening rooms for our enjoyment, that I'm wondering if it is actually going to get the right emotional responses at the end with all types of music.

My mind and ears are open to the possibilities but I'm hoping that the high-efficiency speaker/low powered amp route is actually more than a hobbyist's solution seeking a problem best known to themselves.

If you take the view that an amplifier's job is to amplify, then surely you'd be better off with a solid-state 100wpc amp than a relatively low-powered valve amp?

My single-ended BP pushes out a mighty 8wpc and I use it with 'real world' speakers of 91db sensitivity. It's not lacking drive, energy, or anything else. It has easily as much 'oomph' as the 75wpc transistor amp it replaced.

As for emotional response, that's a bit of a red herring IMO; one can be as moved by a song on a cheap tranny (cue Lily Allen joke) as one played on the highest of high-end equipment.

Steve Toy
19-08-2008, 18:25
As for emotional response, that's a bit of a red herring IMO; one can be as moved by a song on a cheap tranny (cue Lily Allen joke) as one played on the highest of high-end equipment.

There's a certain fatuity to this oft-repeated statement and there is no red herring. You are quite correct in that it is possible but I hope you'll agree that it is more likely to occur when the equipment you use prioritises the intended musical message/providing an insight into the musical performance above all presentational aspects and with all manner of music genre.

I'm afraid that some hi-fi is like a formula 1 racing car tuned to perfection to go round a particular left hand bend in that, for example, it'll play simple vocal + guitar stuff with incredible insight and realism but falls apart on on more demanding fare.

My idea of good hi-fi is akin to a good high-performance saloon car.

Iain Sinclair
19-08-2008, 20:11
There's a certain fatuity to this oft-repeated statement and there is no red herring. You are quite correct in that it is possible but I hope you'll agree that it is more likely to occur when the equipment you use prioritises the intended musical message/providing an insight into the musical performance above all presentational aspects and with all manner of music genre.

I'm afraid that some hi-fi is like a formula 1 racing car tuned to perfection to go round a particular left hand bend in that, for example, it'll play simple vocal + guitar stuff with incredible insight and realism but falls apart on on more demanding fare.

My idea of good hi-fi is akin to a good high-performance saloon car.

Well, yes; there's also the sort of hifi that's great with the toe-tapping stuff but falls down with more complex musical structures. However my single-ended low-power valve amp can do the lot; simple acoustic; large-scale orchestral; amplified rock; complicated jazz. I guess the lesson is that generalisations are to be avoided.

wrt to emotion in music; I sick to my guns. An analogy would be with films; a great film will 'work' even on a small screen; a poor film will remain poor no matter how big the screen and/or how powerful the sound system it's played on.

Marco
19-08-2008, 20:24
Yes, Iain, but the simple fact is the more musical information one hears the more one is able to suspend disbelief and immerse oneself in the music - this is what hi-fi is all about.

It never ceases to amaze me when driving in the car enjoying a song on the radio, which I also own on CD or vinyl, how much information was missing when I play the same piece of music on my system at home, and consequently derive far greater pleasure from it compared to listening to the same track on the car radio.

This is a good topic but it constitutes as thread drift and as such deserves a separate topic of its own. I shall attend to it later unless in the meantime one of the management team would like to do the necessary :)

Marco.

Iain Sinclair
19-08-2008, 20:35
Yes, Iain, but the simple fact is the more musical information one hears the more one is able to suspend disbelief and immerse oneself in the music - this is what hi-fi is all about.

It never ceases to amaze me when driving in the car enjoying a song on the radio, which I also own on CD or vinyl, how much information was missing when I play the same piece of music on my system at home, and consequently derive far greater pleasure from it compared to listening to the same track on the car radio..

Immersing yourself in music while driving would have potentially fatal results, so that's just as well!

But where did you first hear music that you fell in love with? My guess would be on a transistor radio or cheap stereo rather than an expensive hifi. The emotion in the music comes across despite the limitations of the replay medium IMO. The more 'intellectual' aspects of music probably do need a clearer window though.

Marco
19-08-2008, 20:40
Yep, it would have been on the radio or my parent's old record player, but that doesn't change the fact that the musical experience is always far more enjoyable at home on my system than on the car radio. I do agree with you though (in essence).

Marco.

MartinT
19-08-2008, 20:42
To slightly bring the topic back on course, I believe that a truly great system is not oriented towards one musical style, i.e. the foot-tapping system that fails to create a soundstage, the high efficiency detail-orgy which cannot reproduce structure or deep bass, the electrostatic system oriented at classical music etc (I'm sure you can fit a brand to each of the above).

I decided some years ago that I didn't want a system that could do only one thing really well. It's much, much more difficult to assemble a system (and a room) which can replay the complexity of a Mahler symphony, create the awesome wall-of-sound of the Cranberries' Zombie, groove to Miles Davis or provide deep insight into a Shostakovich string quartet. It sure isn't about just taking a bunch of Stereophile grade 'A' components and connecting them together. You really have to 'design' your system, listen to alternatives in the context of the existing system, project forwards to what might work well together, take a couple of wrong moves and finally achieve nirvana.

I guess what I'm saying is that my new speakers have taken me significantly further along that road.

Marco
19-08-2008, 20:47
Absolutely right, Martin - and correct set-up using good quality cables and ancillaries is in my experience fundamental to achieving that goal, which I can see you have attended to. I'm currently in the same happy state with my system.

Do we need to separate the non-relevant (to Usher) posts from the thread or are you happy amalgamating them into the discussion?

Marco.

Iain Sinclair
19-08-2008, 20:55
I think the speakers, and the way they interface with the listening room, are the single biggest element in whether a system 'works' or not. However, because it's much more of a faff to change speakers than it is to change source or amplification, many (self included) throw money at the wrong problem.

The speakers I used to own (Castle Chesters) were by no means poor, but they were wrong in my room. What I needed, but avoided getting for years, were brighter speakers that would probably have sounded OTT in a sparsely-furnished room but work a treat in mine.

Marco
19-08-2008, 21:02
I think the speakers, and the way they interface with the listening room, are the single biggest element in whether a system 'works' or not

This is absolutely true (the room itself in terms of acoustics is of even greater importance) however after that's been achieved/optimised there are still some people far more interested in spending money on the boxes themselves than assembling them synergistically as a system, to the detriment of performance, and thus musical enjoyment as a whole.

This is where proper set-up and attention to detail thereof comes in.

Marco.

MartinT
19-08-2008, 21:43
Do we need to separate the non-relevant (to Usher) posts from the thread or are you happy amalgamating them into the discussion?

No problem, meandering threads are fine with me.

I have indeed put a lot of thought, and money, into power supply, cables and room treatment. Each has paid off in different ways, but the sum effect is very significant to the sound quality of the whole. One learning experience has been that my original assumption about ranking order of the extraneous-to-system tweaks started off incorrect (I thought cables were the next most important thing after components); I am now convinced that the best way to improve a system is to start with room treatment, then purify your mains and finally attend to cables.

Marco
19-08-2008, 22:05
Thanks, Martin. We'll continue with the thread as is then.


I am now convinced that the best way to improve a system is to start with room treatment, then purify your mains and finally attend to cables.


I am in total agreement with you as the above has also been my experience. After all, if you adopt a source first principle in terms of how the signal is influenced it is: (room) > mains > stands > cables > equipment.

That's the order of set-up priority that should be adopted; of course you also need a decent set of components to use!

Have you got a separate dedicated mains spur for your system as well as your mains regenerator? You need both effective mains filtration and isolation to achieve optimum performance.

Marco.

MartinT
19-08-2008, 22:42
Yes, I forgot to mention stands but you're quite right. Isolation is especially important for the source components.

As for dedicated mains, this is a new house so I'm afraid the Power Plant is plugged into the ring main. However, I replaced the mains sockets with unswitched MK units, protection is via good quality circuit breakers and mains noise in this area is very low as evidenced by the infrequent flickering of my PS Audio Harvesters.

Marco
19-08-2008, 22:51
Ah, well you have a mains regenerator and no dedicated mains whereas I have dedicated mains and no mains regenerator! :)

I will attend to the latter sooner rather than later as I've been discussing with someone to obtain a unit from the mechanical industrial sector (with huge capacity) so that should be interesting.

I would urge you though at some point to install a separate mains spur with a dedicated consumer unit as by doing so you will get the full benefits of your excellent PS Audio Power Plant (Premier). This will ensure that household appliances don't interfere with your hi-fi system by generating noise on to the ring main.

The temporary mess and upheaval is short lived and well worth it, trust me!

Marco.

Steve Toy
20-08-2008, 00:45
Ah yes, the mains as a true source... At your place yesterday Marco the mains transformer on my much-loved power amp spent a good twenty minutes or so buzzing like a bee and causing the cover to rattle along with it. The only other place it's done that was at Anthony's and there it's note seemed to alter with fluctuations in the mains coming in.

It's never done that here but I do know that the in-coming mains here is rather clean having tested it, albeit at my parents' house some 300 metres away as the crow flies a few years back, with a Noise Sniffer borrowed from Acoustica in Stafford.

It would seem that although your dedicated spur spares your system from noise within your household, it acts as an open window for crap coming in from outside. Perhaps you need a mains filter that won't kill the dynamics.

Anthony tells me that he's designed such a device.

MartinT
20-08-2008, 05:23
Filtering will only get you so far: it will remove noise but cannot repair a misshapen waveform nor remove any DC component. A regenerator will provide a near-perfect waveform as well as a lower source impedance than the raw stuff coming from the wall.

Humming transformers are usually caused by a combination of misshapen waveform and DC on the mains.

Togil
20-08-2008, 07:01
I believe Howard Popeck said somewhere you definitely have to try the Power Plant first as it is not always beneficial. Burmester do a similar device and also point this out in their literature.

Marco
20-08-2008, 07:51
Ah yes, the mains as a true source... At your place yesterday Marco the mains transformer on my much-loved power amp spent a good twenty minutes or so buzzing like a bee and causing the cover to rattle along with it. The only other place it's done that was at Anthony's and there it's note seemed to alter with fluctuations in the mains coming in.


Indeed. There is obviously some filtering/regeneration of the mains needed, however it doesn't seem to unduly affect the sound of the system :eyebrows:

And hark at you - the boy who doesn't even have a separate spur, despite me going on at you about it for years and you keep saying you'll have one installed ;)

Get yer arse in gear and make it happen!

Also, just because the mains supply was "rather clean" at your parent's house doesn't automatically mean that the situation is the same at your current home. Your mains supply will be on an entirely different circuit from the local sub-station.

I reckon the buzzing we heard was caused by DC on the mains from something the pub next door was using. It only happened for 20 mins (personally I think it was less) of the four hours or so the amp was switched on...

Marco.

SPS
20-08-2008, 10:00
I guess my above rant is fuelled by the fact that I may have to cart my bloody big Hecos to the Chesterfest and risk marking their polished lacquered finish in order to demonstrate what good push-pull and active preamplification can really do without it falling on its arse into super-sensitive open baffles/horns.

Will someone be bringing a sensible (read more conventional) pair of speakers to the Fest, one that is, say, sub 95dB?

The purpose of bringing them is not to take part in some kind of silly competition but to have a bit of a bake-off. I understand that Nick has designed and made a rather good preamp that should at least be heard in this particular context.

I'd also like to hear what a DIY DAC may sound like when fed by the Bel Canto transport.

I'm sad that I am not coming at the weekend,
we have bought a caravan and we have been away most weekends.. and we are in Cornwall for the bank holiday week..

Regarding the single ended comments...your 'above rantings';

Going back 10 years I ran quite a few different solid state amps into 92 db yam1000's, the last one being an Audio Analogue pre and power.

Swapping in a German SE (el84) radiogram amp and then upgrading the volume control and coupling caps.

I have never used a solid-state amp since..

I had never rated valve amps before then.. I had brought a quite few home from the Hi-Fi shop to try.. they always went back..

It was not until I started looking at bought amps at £2-3k they started to sound OK, and most lacked slightly in the lower bass, resulting I believe the lack of drive you refer to..

I then bought some Lowthers( dx3) and in my first home made cabs (Fidelio's)
I had various amps that I had bought connected to the Lowthers and the Yams.

The bass was not quite as deep with the Lowthers and so lacked a little 'body' or drive.. but every thing else was better .. for over 6 months I had a speaker switch in place and would always be swapping the speakers over.. usually back to the yams to see how they compared.

In that swap over period i used the audio analogue pre/power 60watt, the se gram amp (4w), a pye Mozart (refurbed/ 9w) and a simply 845 25w,
and for a few days another 100w solid state amp that I borrowed before I bought the simply 845 and about the same price.
I eventually sold the Yams..

It is hard at big meets to get a really accurate view on the sound of things, I have found big changes at home are not heard, and the big rooms changes the ball park.
I have heard some very good push pull amps, and a few crap ones.

As most people have started from solid state P/P amps.. SE is usually too much of a jump .. I found it can take time to appreciate..

Most of the high efficiency speakers at Owsfest where full range, the slight lack of bass is the price paid for every thing else that is gained..


The SE differences are subtle and not appreciated without long term listening, but my view is that the signal is split in P/P and usually the result is that the sound of the amp is thickened up.. depending on the amp/ speakers this can sound good or bad, depending on your view and what kit your used to listening too ..

Low efficiency speakers are inherently less detailed.
You need to bolster their performance by putting more power into them to control the cone..
Or to put it another way higher efficiency drivers have more self damping, they need less current to operate due to the higher power in the motor.

Don't forget how a speaker works.. it's no more than a DC electric motor connected to AC, so it just vibrates depending on the frequency(s) it's fed.

The power in the motor, and the cone size/ weight determines how close the cone movement resembles that of the AC wave form driving it..
Thats what speaker efficiency is all about, ...how close the output of the driver matches the electrical input..


Excuse my spellins

Steve

Togil
20-08-2008, 10:07
There are those who say SE amps only sound good with horns, whatever the power rating of the SE

SPS
20-08-2008, 10:24
There are those who say SE amps only sound good with horns, whatever the power rating of the SE

not me..

Marco
20-08-2008, 13:08
Hi Steve,


Most of the high efficiency speakers at Owsfest where full range, the slight lack of bass is the price paid for every thing else that is gained..


Yep, but from what I heard at Owston I would say that it's more than just slight.

The only speakers I heard that day which produced what I considered as realistic bass, certainly what I'm used to with the Spendors, was your Lowthers, Nick's open baffles, and Al's - the rest, I'm sorry, were bass light in the extreme. All your designs use decent sized drive units. The other things with piddling little cones and a tinny sound just weren't for me.

Also, as good as the SETs were musically (sweet sounding in the midrange, etc) most systems I heard lacked any real loudness capabilities or 'balls', however the room at Owston was exceptionally large so that would have been a big factor.

The lack of drive and 'oomph', compared to what I'm used to, is the reason why I'm sticking with push-pull, despite whatever flaws it may have. All hi-fi equipment is a compromise, but from what I've heard of SETs so far, its inherent flaws are in areas that are too important for me and the majority of the music I listen to.

Maybe something will change my opinion though on Saturday ;)

Shame you won't be there, mate. It would have been good to hook up again. There will be a full write-up on the forum, though!

Marco.

MartinT
20-08-2008, 13:17
I *like* some horns very much - the Horning Agathon Ultimates are simply amazing. But they represent a different path from the one I have gone down and would not mix well with my system.

SPS
20-08-2008, 14:00
Hi Steve,



Yep, but from what I heard at Owston I would say that it's more than just slight.

The only speakers I heard that day which produced what I considered as realistic bass, certainly what I'm used to with the Spendors, was your Lowthers, Nick's open baffles, and Al's - the rest, I'm sorry, were bass light in the extreme. All your designs use decent sized drive units. The other things with piddling little cones and a tinny sound just weren't for me.

Also, as good as the SETs were musically (sweet sounding in the midrange, etc) most systems I heard lacked any real loudness capabilities or 'balls', however the room at Owston was exceptionally large so that would have been a big factor.

The lack of drive and 'oomph', compared to what I'm used to, is the reason why I'm sticking with push-pull, despite whatever flaws it may have. All hi-fi equipment is a compromise, but from what I've heard of SETs so far, its inherent flaws are in areas that are too important for me and the majority of the music I listen to.

Maybe something will change my opinion though on Saturday ;)

Shame you won't be there, mate. It would have been good to hook up again. There will be a full write-up on the forum, though!

Marco.
look forwards to the write up..

fair comments above Marco

there is a fair amount of room gain on the little full rangers when placed as they where designed to be...

I'm aware marco that you use decent sized drivers

one of my lads has a pair of B&W cdm1's and they are flat sounding right through the range and have little bass.. and they cost alot more than many of these fostex based full rangers.. its getting speakers into perspective..
i know what i would sooner have... not my lads..

there is no doubt in my mind the best bass comes from large dedicated bass drivers .. to get mine somthing like on OB, i use 2 per chanel as you know
it took me until two years ago to reconise the colour that all boxes make to create the low bass sounds.. most of us don't seem to hear it.. but once you hear it.. its always there...


also don't get confused with the effect all the electroncs can have on the signal, each electrical component creates just a little distortion,
each stage its amplified by the gain of that stage ..then there's feed back, putting the back emf from the drivers along with the main signal straight back into the amp..

it all has the effect of thickening the sound up and removing the finer details
and sweetness that is in the recording.. giving it more body or maybe 'balls'

I know many like that sound .. i do with some music..

but i like where i am at the moment best..

we all are evolving as listeners...

steve

SPS
20-08-2008, 14:33
also don't get confused with the effect all the electroncs can have on the signal, each electrical component creates just a little distortion,
each stage its amplified by the gain of that stage ..then there's feed back, putting the back emf from the drivers along with the main signal straight back into the amp..

it all has the effect of thickening the sound up and removing the finer details
and sweetness that is in the recording.. but giving it more body or maybe 'balls'




re reading this post i was thinking what i could relate this too..
the clearest thing was ..NOS valves vs modern production valves.. there's no magic involved there...
the valve is quite an influential component.. but everything else has an effect

Marco
20-08-2008, 15:35
That's all fair comment, Steve. You know I like my NOS valves, so I know what you mean ;)

There may well be a "thickening" of the sound with push-pulls compared to SETs - in fact I'm sure there probably is, however their lack of real 'scale' and loudness capabilities when used in conjunction with (most) speakers puts me off because a big part of musical enjoyment for me is creating a feeling of 'physicality' such as you often get when listening to music live.

I get this in spades with my Spendors, and it isn't boom, overhang, boxy colorations or anything like that - it's deep, tight, tuneful bass that with the right material flaps your trousers and hits you in the chest. They also have an amazingly life-like midrange and detailed top end; not like the best SETs and open baffle combinations but close enough for it not to matter.

I haven't written off SETs/high efficiency speakers completely - I would be daft to do so as my experience so far is limited, but unless I hear a combination in my own system which gives me what I'm looking for as described above I'll be sticking with push-pulls. Incidentally, as people will hear at Chester with Steve's amp, Anthony's designs have as near as damn it the subtlety and texture in the midrange of SETs, whilst combining that with the drive and 'punch' of the best push-pulls - it really is an awesome bit of kit and something to be savoured in conjunction with my modified Croft preamp :smoking:

Marco.

tfarney
21-08-2008, 10:47
I get this in spades with my Spendors, and it isn't boom, overhang, boxy colorations or anything like that - it's deep, tight, tuneful bass that with the right material flaps your trousers and hits you in the chest. They also have an amazingly life-like midrange and detailed top end; not like the best SETs and open baffle combinations but close enough for it not to matter.


It seems that, theoretically at least, remarkable results could be obtained with full-range drivers driven by SE, accompanied by powered woofers, integrated or detached, driven by digital or SS amps. But I'm sure if the theory wasn't full of application hurdles, it would be a common high-end solution.

Tim

SPS
21-08-2008, 11:32
It seems that, theoretically at least, remarkable results could be obtained with full-range drivers driven by SE, accompanied by powered woofers, integrated or detached, driven by digital or SS amps. But I'm sure if the theory wasn't full of application hurdles, it would be a common high-end solution.

Tim


quite Tim, i have spent years overcoming hurdles and i do not consider myself to have overcome that many
for me its being brave enough to diy with qualiy components

i suppose many round here would not think twice about paying £2-3k for a pair a speakers.. but to pay a little less than that for drivers to make your own??

open bafles have always been in the background .. since the 30's
but they mostly used by the diy brigade

powered woofers etc do sound ideal, but getting them to intergrate is can be another hurdle..

SE amps can do bass well .. but they need the right speakers and they need
to use the right components
there is nothing bass light with original px4 px25 4/300a/b or any of the other quality valves... in a quality amp

but the valves are not really available, and less so amps to put them in( with the exception of the 4300a/ 300b ..but look at the price of those valves because of that...
a friend came around a few months back with his 300b amp with KR's.. not cheap valves in a good amp the bass was good for a SE 300b but a little loose.. lots of work on the power supply can make an improvement but not the improvement the 4300a makes right through the range, the bass was at px4 /px25 levels

us diyers have quite an advantage


steve

Marco
21-08-2008, 11:44
Good post, Steve. Another thing for me with the open baffle route is I would have to employ a cabinet maker to make me something more, erm how shall I put it, 'substantial' looking than the things you guys use ;)

No offence, but I'm used to the beautifully polished solid Rosewood veneered cabinets on my Spendors, and a plywood box (or whatever) that Herman Munster might sleep in doesn't quite cut it :lolsign:

Sound AND looks are important to me, and unfortunately that's where most of the D.I.Y stuff falls down. But such problems aren't insurmountable...

Marco.

SPS
21-08-2008, 13:12
looks are important to me too marco, i have made some half decent looking gear in the past.. but i always improve on it.. but no amp seems to last long in one lump..

i think its called progress...

steve

tfarney
21-08-2008, 14:51
quite Tim, i have spent years overcoming hurdles and i do not consider myself to have overcome that many
for me its being brave enough to diy with qualiy components

i suppose many round here would not think twice about paying £2-3k for a pair a speakers.. but to pay a little less than that for drivers to make your own??

open bafles have always been in the background .. since the 30's
but they mostly used by the diy brigade

powered woofers etc do sound ideal, but getting them to intergrate is can be another hurdle..

SE amps can do bass well .. but they need the right speakers and they need
to use the right components
there is nothing bass light with original px4 px25 4/300a/b or any of the other quality valves... in a quality amp

but the valves are not really available, and less so amps to put them in( with the exception of the 4300a/ 300b ..but look at the price of those valves because of that...
a friend came around a few months back with his 300b amp with KR's.. not cheap valves in a good amp the bass was good for a SE 300b but a little loose.. lots of work on the power supply can make an improvement but not the improvement the 4300a makes right through the range, the bass was at px4 /px25 levels

us diyers have quite an advantage


steve

Thing is, the little EL84-based SE amp I had here a couple of weeks ago had good bottom end - just a tiny bit looser than my SS and digital amps, but not boomy at all. But that was 500 milliwatts driving 300 ohm headphones. I suspect its 5 watts into speakers would present more challenge.

It's still 98% transducers...

Tim

Cotlake
21-08-2008, 19:57
Hi Marco,

Visual aesthetics is a major factor for me also and those on here who have known me for several years have known that for a long time. Much of the stuff you have seen is scratch built and the builder has a different priority on things from the likes of us. For them it is all completely about the sound. For me the visual also has to play a part, particularly as it has to sit in my living room and it has to be tolerable for Amanda.

Consequently, I prefer DIY for financial economy and the ability to tune for excellent synergy. Thereafter, anything I do must end up looking good.

Real DIY can result in a professional looking build that looks as good as the sound produced. Below is some of my work.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f296/Dingsking/Slatedeck2021-1.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f296/Dingsking/WD25Axl001.jpg

Marco
21-08-2008, 20:10
Great pictures, Greg. Can you do me a favour and post them also in The Gallery section? It keeps all the member's system pictures in the one area - cheers!

Lovely looking 401, btw :)

I think I've heard those WD kit floorstanders before, but the ones I heard had the 'gas filled' tweeters, or whatever. You know the ones I mean with the gold coloured domes? I think WD discontinued them because they could no longer obtain the drive units. They sounded fantastic!

Yep, all your stuff looks great, and I'm sure Steve (SPS) has also made the odd pretty looking box before, too ;)

You're right - other people have different priorities. For me there has to be an element of beauty with hi-fi, too, (especially with speakers) and a pride of ownership factor, which for me only exists if the equipment has visual as well as sonic appeal. However, sound quality will ultimately always come first.

Marco.

SPS
21-08-2008, 20:28
Thing is, the little EL84-based SE amp I had here a couple of weeks ago had good bottom end - just a tiny bit looser than my SS and digital amps, but not boomy at all. But that was 500 milliwatts driving 300 ohm headphones. I suspect its 5 watts into speakers would present more challenge.

It's still 98% transducers...

Tim

my main system at the moment is a 2 watts/chanel
and it goes loud enough to fill a small hall...

i must agree the speakers a rather critical part of the equation

a fact quite often overlooked...

steve

Cotlake
21-08-2008, 21:24
Hi Marco,

That Slatedeck is the same you heard at Oustfest. It just looks and sounds better this way :)

On the speaker, this is an original WAD (World Audio Design) KLS3 MkI with the Audax fabric tweeter. It was particularly designed to work with their 300B PP amp of which I've built a clone that you have listened to (albeit in not the ultimate environment). Later models incorporated the gold tweeter as you describe and there followed some crossover and port tweaking. I've built the later model for my son and in my room it didn't offer any sound benefit. The tweeter diaphram has a tendancy to fail and there are no longer any available replacements.

WD (World Designs) is the new company having bought out WAD and they offer a SEAS alternative for the tweeter on KLS3 which I understand performs better that all original options.

Here's another pic.

Best wishes,

Greg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f296/Dingsking/KLS3Mk1.jpg

Mike
21-08-2008, 21:36
Lovely looking speakers Greg... Are the cabinets your own work?

I've a hankering to change mine but dare not ask the wife, she loves the Castle's we use ATM.

:sofa:

I think they're the most expensive component I've ever bought too. :scratch:

Cotlake
23-08-2008, 20:01
I have to admit as this was my very first project into DIY and I had the cabinets made by what turned out to be a very incompetent joiner. I did the structural design but they did the cutting and glueing. They managed to leave loads of air gaps in critical places such as cabinet joints and on one of the cabinets managed to cut the bass driver hole completely off centre. I had to make a template to use with a fillit to recut a central hole. All the gaps were methodically filled by drizzling PVA wood glue into all the crevices. That took a long time as each joint needed to be treated and therefore the cabinets needed to be leant at 45 degrees at different planes to ensure the glue got into and sealed the joints properly. An arduous task but I got proper result eventually.

The finish is all mine. It's a waxed finish using a undercoat of sanding sealer. I now don't like this method. I much prefer the use of good finishing oils such as Danish Oil or the best which literally is called 'Finishing Oil'. It's a lighter finish, easier to apply and treat between coats and buffs up well after the final application. These oils are impervious to water, so no subsequent surface staining when SHMBO puts a vase of flowers on top, and low level damage is not obvious after the hoover has been banged about the speaker base. Any damage actually caused can be easily made visually good with another wipe of oil. In this circumstance, wax is a pain. It is not easily repaired and continues to show marks albeit a rub over with a Walnut kernal does wonders (I kid you not).

The reason for going with these oils is because commercial products look well good with a flat surface which is probably nothing more that a well delivered polyurethene coating. At home we don't have the capability of delivering that, and the oil option seems to replecate the aesthetic quality. Actually, for me, it's the better choice.

MartinT
23-08-2008, 20:36
Lovely looking 401, btw

It is, and is that a Michell Tecnoarm(A) I spot, Greg? I have one too, mounted on my venerable Strathclyde STD-305M. If I could pick up a 401 at a decent price I'd jump at it.

Cotlake
24-08-2008, 07:44
Yes Martin, a Michell TecnoArm A. I had the Origin Live version before and think this is a much better Rega RB250 derivative.

MartinT
07-10-2010, 21:33
I tried to edit my post #8 to point to my new hosts but found I can't. There must be a time limit on editing posts. So here again is that (old-ish) photo for completion in case anyone else is interested in the big Ushers.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/UsherSystem.jpg

Reid Malenfant
08-10-2010, 12:39
I tried to edit my post #8 to point to my new hosts but found I can't. There must be a time limit on editing posts.
Indeed, it's 24Hrs & then the edit button does a great impression of an Oozlum bird :eyebrows:

michaelhigh
18-10-2010, 22:54
I tried to edit my post #8 to point to my new hosts but found I can't. There must be a time limit on editing posts. So here again is that (old-ish) photo for completion in case anyone else is interested in the big Ushers.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/UsherSystem.jpg

Great looking room, gorgeous kit.

MartinT
19-10-2010, 06:27
Thanks :o