So Mr. (or Ms.) ‘Civilian, what would you prefer? Hmm? Go on, tell me.

[Neil McCauley]

Here’s the situation.

Like it or not and believe it or not, it is an inconvenient fact of life that an increasing number of audiophile units require a breaking in period in order to sound at their best. The most extreme I have encountered is with the Ayre C-5xe player which, the makers opined, needed at least 1000 hours before sounding at its optimum. I resigned the agency long before I could verify that.

Nevertheless ...

I am encountering some quite challenging issues re this.

In short, using my well broken-in demo units, particularly the PS Audio PPP and some models of Harbeth (but curiously not LFD nor Benchmark, and it’s too soon to tell with Manley) my customers are finding that brand new units, factory fresh and straight out of the box don’t sound quite the same as the units used in the home demo.

They know they will eventually sound the same, but I'm conscious that this must inevitably lead to a degree of disappointment.

What I can tell you is that for whatever reason ...

Makers are not prepared to ‘break-in’ items before they ship. They certainly ‘soak-test’ for a few hours, possibly days to ensure the unit is functioning properly and safely – but nothing more than that.

Of course it is entirely feasible for me and others like me to break-in the units i.e. rum them for say 200 hours prior to delivery and installation. Superficially quite simple. However …

Looking at it from the buyer's perspective ....

I’d be a bit suspicious (frankly even with a dealer with a decent reputation) to pay full price for what is clearly an opened box. Frankly, if I were buying say a Digital SLR, or washing machine, I’d be a bit sceptical if it was delivered having been previously opened – even if it came from say John Lewis, perhaps the most trusted retailer in the UK.

What I do know from years back (I don’t know if this still goes on) is that ...

Some importers when sending out equipment to reviewers ensured, through placing the mailing label on the underneath of the outer packing, that the reviewer opened the underside of the box thereby leaving the top surface intact. Thus that reviewed item might, if carefully repacked internally, be sent out to whoever and look, to all intents and purposes, like a brand new unit.

Certainly in the 1980s, some distributors would supply on request by retailers new outer cartons (flat packed) with a roll of official sealing tape with the maker’s brand on it. Thus returned items of indeed items that were dead on arrival could, when suitably processed, be returned to the market.

Anyway ...

I’ve decided that I am going to give my customers the option of a sealed box, the contents of which will initially sound quite different from my broken-in demo unit, or at their request I break the unit in at no charge.

Having for the time being at least come up with a solution, I am nevertheless curious about the views of colleague forum members. I'm find the quality of responses here and the care taken by so many is a breath of fresh air. It really is. In the past, because of suggestions here, the quality of the buying experience for my customers has improved.

Thank you.


---//---

[John]

Think its ok to say in my experience it takes X hours to before you get the best out of it.
It strange none of my equipment I have now required to long breaking in.
My worst experience was having my Nu0vista upgraded by audiocom took 2 to 3 weeks before system was performing at it best and that was after letting the cd on repeat all day all night.
For me one of my own pet hates is to be told an item will take 3 weeks ring 5 weeks latter the dealer says we spoken to distributor or manufacture and they say will be x time, then speak to the manufacturer or distributor to find they had told them something different Wish some dealrs understood all I wanted was the truth and a reasonable idea when i would have toe product not my expecations raised and then dashed again. Ahhhhhhhhhh

[Steve Toy]

As a customer it would depend on the item and how long it takes to burn in, or, more importantly, how nasty it sounds during the burn-in stage.

[Togil]

[B]
Some importers when sending out equipment to reviewers ensured, through placing the mailing label on the underneath of the outer packing, that the reviewer opened the underside of the box thereby leaving the top surface intact. Thus that reviewed item might, if carefully repacked internally, be sent out to whoever and look, to all intents and purposes, like a brand new unit.

Certainly in the 1980s, some distributors would supply on request by retailers new outer cartons (flat packed) with a roll of official sealing tape with the maker’s brand on it. Thus returned items of indeed items that were dead on arrival could, when suitably processed, be returned to the market.



But the fingermarks were impossible to remove.

Personally I prefer a new unit as i think 50 % ( ? ) of the burning in process is actually getting used to the difference in sound

[Primalsea]

For me it depends on whether you trust the dealer. I wouldn't mind an open box if the unit was immaculate and had full warranty if I knew the guy was reliable and not a stitch up merchant.

[gary]

Until recently I had never experianced burn in periods at all for hifi equipment and have got to say that I would have been very skeptical that I was actually getting what I paid for and not a cheap copy, in a box or otherwise. I think it is a very very good idea to let customers know what to expect, Given the choice I think its going to be about how desperate the customer is to get the new equipment home, It would also let you know that the equipment is leaving you in good working order, I would suggest that you always let the customer see you taking new unit out of box and give them a copy of serials to save any possible arguments about it being new and save you the hastle of having people coming back a few weeks later claiming you foisted them of with a dem or s/h unit.

[Iain Sinclair]

Choice is always good. Personally I've bought new, second-hand and ex-dem, and I'm not bothered about something being brand new and unsealed. But I have doubts about the concept of burn-in anyway.

[Cotlake]

Those of us on the DIY side have been very concious of the burn in issue for many years. The most obvious example being the effects of fitting (now obsolete) Blackgate capacitors that took a minimum of 50 hours to start to sound right and improved in spades thereafter. John mentioned Audiocom who use Blackgates extensively in their upgrades. On manufactured and DIY gear, burn in is a logical expectation and those of you who claim not to have noticed it until recently are probably not being very realistic. It has been known for years that the suspension of a speaker cone needs about 200 hours before it's true response and speed is demonstrated. Likewise, small components need the time to settle down. Sometimes you can even measure it with small changes to voltages etc within the circuit. My Marantz CD6000KIS took several days to settle as did my Beresford dac and absolutely everything I have built (6 amps in total) has needed time to start sounding right and then, when revisiting to tweak I went through the whole process again :doh:.

I acknowledge the argument based on familiarity/getting used to the new sound, but as the fresh out the box or newly constructed stuff often sounds awful to start with but improves, mellows and comes into balance with time there must be something in this. A new bed feels unfamiliar and may take a few nights to provide a settled sleep. Surely that is a combination of getting used to it and the whole bed structure bedding (sorry) down to become a comfortable platform on which to lie.

In my view, hi-fi is the same and if I was selling the stuff and demonstrating it I would make a point to the customer that what they are listening to is the sound they should expect once their system has been running for a while. Tell them to expect a raw sound with muddled imaging and bloated bass etc for the first few days or so and to then look forward to the sound when all burns in and is settled down.

In speaker DIY it is not uncommon for a new build to be set up with a constant signal in a spare room, both facing each other closely and left like that, covered in a blanket for several days before any listening starts. Likewise with my amp builds, I leave them running continually (provided they are monitored) and only start seriously listening when they have a hundred or so hours on them.

To extend the discussion further, certainly those of us who use valve amps recognise that from cold switch on, they need 20 to 40 minutes before they sing properly. I often switch on my system, play something but not listen for half an hour to allow for this warm up period. Those using digital or sand equipment might like to question why some manufacturers/suppliers recommend their kit being left on all the time even when not being listened to. I think this recommendation comes from the same realisation.

Without wanting to cause offence, I do very much question the ears of those who claim the need for burn in is a falacy. New kit always sounds better with time and to be sure it is not just down to familiarity with the sound of a new component within the system. If that were the case, it blows the whole argument on synergy cleanly out of the window ;)

[Steve Toy]

Good post Greg.

To rule out the issue of familiarity you have only to compare two identical items but for the fact that only one of them has been burnt in.

[tfarney]

Once again, I'm much more familiar with the audio musicians and studio pros use than high-end home systems, but break-in is an old fact of life. When you put a new speaker in a guitar amp, you understand that it will be stiff and tight and not perform right for awhile. The same goes for tubes. But 1000 hours? A couple of nights of pink noise running non-stop under some heavy blankets I can handle, but at the prices I suspect you guys are paying for gear (kit) I would expect the manufacturer to break it in for me.

Tim

[lurcher]

One of the arguments that I have seen put against "running in" is the idea that it always gets better, you would expect some things to sound worst with use. I have heard exactly that taking place, change to a circuit sounding good at first but with time changing and becoming unpleasant so discarded for another.

I have found amorphous core transformers have some very strange burn in properties, I am sure I have heard them change audibly from one state to another in the process of listening to a few minutes music, only seems to happen once, but I suspect it actually happens to both chans at different times but you only notice the second one changing.

I do wonder if just age itself improves the sound of components, and thats part of the reason for the sound of NOS parts, maybe a release of internal stress over time. Though it may be the process takes a lot longer if its not used.

[Togil]

I would ask the doubters of the familiarity issue :

Have you never felt that
1. second-hand gear has a burning in period ?

2. gear burns in even though no music has been played ?

[Marco]

Hans,

To answer your two questions:

'Burning-in' is different from 'warming up'. Second-hand gear is already 'burnt-in' but when bought will be 'cold' and require to be 'warmed up' before optimum performance is realised. The 'warming up' process should take no longer than an hour or so before equipment is fully on song, and then if left switched on will always be ready to perform optimally.

Gear 'burns-in' simply by being plugged into the mains. Music does not require being played in order for this process to occur, although it may speed up the process.

I hope this helps explain your concerns regarding these phenomena :)

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Burn in

CD transports need to actually spin, wiring needs a signal and speakers definitely need a signal going through them to burn in unless your mains/transformers are really really noisy. :D

Warm up

Kit only needs to be switched on but speakers still need a signal running through them.

[StanleyB]

Some components such as electrolytic capacitors require burn in. Even if you have had an amp for years, if you don't use it for a while you have to keep an eye on the caps. They dry out internally and can rupture or explode if you try to use them at full stretch without a burn in.

Many laser pickups need a burn n period, and a warm up one as well. As a matter of fact, a laser pickup has to be used on a regular basis, otherwise it wears out quicker.

A good friend of mine described the difference between burn in and warm up in a very adult manner. Burn in is when the young lady is as yet 'untouched' and needs some time to get the hang of things.
Warm up is when she needs encouragement to do the dirty deed...

[John]

A good friend of mine described the difference between burn in and warm up in a very adult manner. Burn in is when the young lady is as yet 'untouched' and needs some time to get the hang of things.
Warm up is when she needs encouragement to do the dirty deed...

hahaha