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Mike
02-08-2008, 10:40
Here's a question for all you Hadcock aficionados;

Silicone damping fluid, use the arm with, or without it?

I'm asking because my used example arrived with a sort of filthy sludge in it which I've obviously cleaned out and it seems happy enough without it. Or does it?... I've commented elsewhere about the 'cone-flap' problem I currently have and I'm wondering if this lack of damping fluid might be exacerbating this phenomenon?

If I need some of this fluid what grade is it and where do I obtain it?


Cheers...

thrunobulaxx
02-08-2008, 10:43
Here's a question for all you Hadcock aficionados;

Silicone damping fluid, use the arm with, or without it?

I'm asking because my used example arrived with a sort of filthy sludge in it which I've obviously cleaned out and it seems happy enough without it. Or does it?... I've commented elsewhere about the 'cone-flap' problem I currently have and I'm wondering if this lack of damping fluid might be exacerbating this phenomenon?

If I need some of this fluid what grade is it and where do I obtain it?


Cheers...

J7 sells it Mike (audio origami) i imagine it is better with it than without myself.

lurcher
02-08-2008, 11:07
I can't answer your poll, as I don't use it, but I wouldn't say it was a wast of time. I don't use a amp that uses feedback to try and give it a response to DC, so that might hide a problem. I would have thought testing the resonance frequencies with a test disk would be worth doing.

Marco
02-08-2008, 11:08
Yep, I'd go with some fluid damping - not too much, though.

It's something that has to be fine tuned by ear. I've got some spare silicone fluid left over from the KAB bits you can have Mike when you come down, if you can wait until then. It's in a syringe all ready to squirt in :)

Marco.

DSJR
02-08-2008, 21:10
When I used to set/re-glue these arms up (along with Mayware) I always used just enough damping fluid to stop the arm top wobbling all over the place (they weren't as self stabilising as an ARO from what I remember). Remember the car suspension analogy - it should rebound once and then settle, or summat like that...

Whatever I dislike about the (you've been) 'ad cock, they could sound very fine, especially with Deccas. I'm surprised they still exist. I'd have thought early ones would have fallen apart by now and new ones seem very expensive considering the finish still isn't up to much (IMO of course)...

lurcher
02-08-2008, 21:29
Odd, mine seems to be very stable, it seems to be near critically damped without the need of silicon.

Marco
02-08-2008, 21:56
Dave,

The latest 'cocks (ooh-er) are finished to a much higher standard. I bought a brand new GH-242 Integra about 2 and a half years ago and it was finished immaculately - sounded great too, but it was on an LP12 :eyebrows:

Marco.

Cotlake
02-08-2008, 22:00
A well researched guy in this area is James Doddington. You'll find alot of his educational posts on various forums albeit that for about 18 months he's been very silent owing to work commitments. He is a bit of a Guru and always runs his uni-pivots dry only on the basis if the system will allow it. He therefore advocates the dry approach for both Mayware and Hadcock.

Having said that, if you do feel the need to damp with silicon solution, there are several options on different viscosity through Model Making shops, particularly those that major on model car racing.

This thing has the potential to be very anal. Is silicon solution needed? Which viscosity is right for your personal application? How much quantity do you need? I don't actually have the answers but I suppose this message is intended to reveal what a 'can of worms' the whole thing is.

My head tells me, try and run dry because that has been recommended by some well respected DIY hi-fi people. If your system/unipivot doesn't like it, comply with solution volume (fill to the level as recommended by the manufacturer) and start with a low viscosity solution. As said, it'll be an anal thing and if you're up for it, thereafter experiment with thicker solutions until you have established your ultimate anologue TT sound presentation.

Best wishes,

Greg

Marco
02-08-2008, 22:17
Yep, when I had the Integra I ran it 'dry', and it sounded great, so no doubt you're right, Greg. The only thing that made me say to Mike to try some silicon was the effect it had on the arm on my 1210 (with a 103 Pro) - the damping trough and silicon fluid makes a pretty big difference to the arm's performance, but then it's not a Hadcock...

Doesn't it depend on the cartridge used, too? I believe that Deccas, for example, liked some silicon damping.

Marco.

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
03-08-2008, 12:51
Mike
I would certainly go with the Silicon damping fluid, by coincidence I have some of the J7 stuff at home. I use it in my Audiocraft tonearm. You are more than welcome to have the spare syringe full. In fact one syringe is more than enough for a lifetime of trials.
As a thought my tonearm is adjustable for the amount of damping, although I have the Silicon in the tonearm I actually have the adjustment set to minimum. So if the volume of Silicon on the Hadcock equates to different amount of applied damping I would start off with little and move up from there, it is also quite easy to remove excess fluid too.

Andy - SDDW

Sound Image
03-08-2008, 15:02
I don´t use the damping in my TriPlanar arm but the Hadcock is a unipivot and therefore I think it could be a good thing. I had a Mayware Formula 4 many years ago and it definitely had to be damped by silicone fluid. The same goes for the Mörch unipivots.

Mike
03-08-2008, 19:59
Well it sounds like there's no harm in trying it. I can't imagine it's going to have any effect on my 'cone flap' problem though, my head tells me the damping is at the wrong end of the tonearm but we'll see. Shit happens!

I think I'm barking up the wrong tree here anyway, I had a play about with the 'HFN Test Record' yesterday and both vertical and horizontal resonance seem to be at around 8-9Hz and rather undramatic. Yes the cartridge wobbles about but not drastically and certainly no bouncing out of the groove type antics, everything seemed pretty well behaved really. I'm having a bit of trouble finding the sweet spot for the bias weight but I was kind expecting that.



Mike
I would certainly go with the Silicon damping fluid, by coincidence I have some of the J7 stuff at home. I use it in my Audiocraft tonearm. You are more than welcome to have the spare syringe full. In fact one syringe is more than enough for a lifetime of trials.
As a thought my tonearm is adjustable for the amount of damping, although I have the Silicon in the tonearm I actually have the adjustment set to minimum. So if the volume of Silicon on the Hadcock equates to different amount of applied damping I would start off with little and move up from there, it is also quite easy to remove excess fluid too.

Andy - SDDW


Thanks Andy, that would be great. I've been meaning to give you a ring and come round for a listen to those Dali's of yours! :eyebrows:
Maybe I can bring my phono stage round to try in your system? AT least your TT is a 'known quantity' if you see what I mean.

Cheers...

shane
03-08-2008, 20:49
I always thought the main function of damping on unipivots was to control the arm's side to side rocking movement rather than to control cartridge resonance.

Mike
03-08-2008, 21:09
Well, that's what I thought too. :scratch:

No harm in seeing what happens though I suppose. :confused:

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
04-08-2008, 05:10
Hi MIke
Give me a call and we'll arrange a visit. You are more than welcome to bring along the phono stage too, should be interesting.
Andy - SDDW

Non-Smoking Man
09-11-2014, 15:10
I use to have a 228 and tried it with damping and without. Using an Ultimo budget high output MC I found the combo more listenable with the damping; without the damping it was initially impressive but became wearing after a while (especially in the treble). ( I use a Rock with front end damping and the watchword with damping is 'as little as possible'. John Bamford told me that.)

walpurgis
09-11-2014, 15:58
The need for damping and the degree of damping will be different for each cartridge. Many damped arms are low mass types and will not work happily with low compliance cartridges without damping. The Mayware and Mission 774 are examples. My 774 sounds marvellous with Deccas and MCs if a fair amount of fluid damping is applied. The amount of damping for each situation can only be established by experimenting.

So really it means that none of the poll answers would be appropriate.

Reffc
09-11-2014, 17:13
I prefer to add headshell mass than use a damped arm. Most 9 inch arms today do seem too lightweight to control cart resonance for lowish compliance carts. I've found that many arms benefit from adding a little headshell mass. With some lightweight carts (such as ZYX models) its pretty essential on light and medium mass arms in order to get the best from the cartridge.

topoxforddoc
11-11-2014, 07:36
Always use damping, but then again I have used a Decca for all but 6 months of my 35 year Hadcock ownership. For the other 6 months, I had an Allaerts MC1B MC cart in it, which worked fine with damping too. My 1979 GH228 hasn't fallen apart, but it has been rewired by J7 at AO.

Rush2112
12-11-2014, 12:37
I use SME V and I would agree as little damping as possible, when I had the Ortofon MC 3000mkII a little was required, but with the Koetsu I find none is needed.