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Neil McCauley
30-07-2008, 14:36
I’ve heard this sort of comment frequently during the years. It’s certainly true that we have far fewer magazines that the 1970s. However very recently, comments from the makers and other retailers who talk to me indicate what might be the first signs of worrying trend that might see a ‘shake up’ of the titles available.

Quite simply a number of organisations know from their careful monitoring that the advertising just isn’t working. Not at all. To the extent that they are pulling out of all magazines. Some might look at it again towards the Winter.

Logically, the public (if reports are true) are increasingly resistant to anything said in adverts.

Were this not the case, then adverts would generate leads, which assuming the maker passes them on (not always the case) and/or the retailer doesn’t screw the opportunity, might lead to sales. Apparently for some organisations, this just isn’t happening in sufficient quantity nor regularity

So putting to one side any comments about editorial policy, integrity of reviewers and so on, what is the forum’s view as to why the adverts of makers and retailers (and I'm excluding here the apparently resilient used audio sector where advertising has remained stable) is increasingly ineffective?

My own view, inverted as always, is that this phenomenon cannot legitimately be blamed on the ‘credit crunch’ and to automatically assume that it could would be to seek superficiality over observation, investigation and thought.

I say this because while I specialise in systems from £3k to £9k (hardly the upper echelons of pricing) my own target market are so they tell me about as recession-resistant as can reasonably be expected. Logically then, the market sector above mine might well similarly be recession resistant too. Moreover Richer Sounds always seem busy when I stroll by.

My view:

1. I believe that all the words associated with advertising text, such as ‘outstanding’, ‘engaging’, and ‘musical’ have been devalued through over-use and misapplication.

2. If I ever advertise again in the magazines, it is highly likely there will only be the company name, contact details, a fine shot of a fine system and a list of brands. And that’s it. No words, however sincerely written!


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purite audio
30-07-2008, 14:45
Was there ever a time when magazine reviewers were completely independant, reviews based entirely on the merit of the equipment without thought to the reviewers own position, the magazines advertising revenue etc?

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
30-07-2008, 14:50
Hi Howard
The problem for the mags could be that there is so much info out there on the internet that a great many people have access to, weather it is correct or not, or biased or not is a completely different question. If they are inclined to not trust or rely on the mags for whatever reasons, they will gather the info they need form the net and not the mags, so therefore they will tend not to buy the mags other than have a glossy picture to view and ultimately wrap the fish and chips in. Could this be the reason for the deline in sales, not sure but it would be a shame to loose them in the long run, even if it's just for my fish supper.

Andy - SDDW

Neil McCauley
31-07-2008, 10:10
Hi Howard
The problem for the mags could be that there is so much info out there on the internet that a great many people have access to, weather it is correct or not, or biased or not is a completely different question. If they are inclined to not trust or rely on the mags for whatever reasons, they will gather the info they need form the net and not the mags, so therefore they will tend not to buy the mags other than have a glossy picture to view and ultimately wrap the fish and chips in. Could this be the reason for the deline in sales, not sure but it would be a shame to loose them in the long run, even if it's just for my fish supper.

Andy - SDDW


Hello Andy.

I do believe you've hit the nail right on the head by the appropriate use of the phrase "If they are inclined to not trust or rely on the mags for whatever reasons ....."

You've alerted me to something I knew, but had not acknowledged. If Editorial is not trusted then, by osmosis, it is likely that adverts might not be trusted either. A very interesting point and, given the rampant egos of some audio journalists, sadly not something any of us even in collaboration can influence.

Having worked on a number of business-to-business automotive magazines in the 1990s and having seen the ruthless behaviour of the bean counters in giant publishing houses first hand, my impression --– albeit without any direct evidence to support this view – is that one way or another all of the current UK audio magazines are on a short financial leash. By this I mean that it is possible, even probable that they are already well into a defined period allowed for achieving a worthwhile return on investment.

When that time is up, don’t look for sentiment from the ones that pull the financial strings. They probably think that Bose is the true pinnacle of achievement in the misunderstood audiophile world.


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David Price
23-10-2008, 21:37
Was there ever a time when magazine reviewers were completely independant, reviews based entirely on the merit of the equipment without thought to the reviewers own position, the magazines advertising revenue etc?

A widely held position this, but a logically problematic one. It is simply not fair (or accurate) to talk about "magazine reviewers" en masse, as one homogenous bloc that behaves as one. Indeed, the reality is actually very much the opposite. I would be utterly naive to claim that 100% of reviewers are "unbiased", but so are you to claim the reverse - and then go on to explain this in terms of nefarious motives. In truth, people are people and that means a whole spectrum of different behaviour. Actually, most I know (and that's across most of the mags) don't consciously bias their reviews with a view to "their own position/ad revenue", but what I would say is that people have their own personal taste. Some like it hard and punchy, others sweet and clean, etc. Let's not forget that listening is - in the final instance - a subjective process with a number of variables (i.e. the other links in their review system). The trouble is that those who disagree with those subjective findings instantly put 2 and 2 together and make 353 - ascribing the verdict to everything from flagrant favouritism to bribery! We can't win really, can we? The trick is to 'find' a reviewer you tend to agree with (in terms of your subjective tastes), and use him as a gauge - whilst reading the others with a pinch of salt. That is sensible and logical; alleging bias for reasons of adsales, etc., is an altogether more problematic and hard to prove thing. And like the earth being flat or us all being controlled by aliens from outer space, I personally wouldn't allege something unless I could actually prove it!

Filterlab
24-10-2008, 07:58
It's almost impossible for a hi-fi publication to be completely objective when testing, the writers have generally been in the hi-fi game for years and years and consequently have expectations and experience of what manufacturers offer. This has to influence their opinion either negatively or positively as their test then becomes subjective, however subjectivity from memory is tricky as if one recalls something that was very good from a while ago, the mind tends to hold it in exceptional light if the current point of comparison is not as impressive. This leads to an inner monologue along the lines of "well, it's not as good as X, and it's certainly nowhere near as good as Y" etc etc. Of course a strict A/B comparison may yield more accurate results but publications inevitably don't have the time.

However, my particular magazine of choice is Hi-Fi Choice (pardon the pun), which I've subscribed to for about three and a half years - since I got back into hi-fi. I really like it, there's some excellent experienced reviewers (Richard Black, Paul Messenger, Jason Kennedy et al) and the tests always seem to be fair. From my direct experience and in my personal opinion I can say that their reviews are very accurate, I auditioned my Revels, in a roundabout way, after reading Hi-Fi Choice's exceptionally good review of them. They were bang on in their description in every way, reading it now and comparing it to my experience of my speakers there's nothing that doesn't align. Oh, they also quite deservedly gave them an Editor's Choice award, nothing like a gold badge to get one's attention.

As for Howard's original question, there is a notable decline in magazines of every genre, except maybe computer related magazines, and that's the crux of the reason; when one is looking for information on anything the first port of call is usually Google.

griffo104
24-10-2008, 08:16
I've been a subscriber to hifi+ almost since the start. One of the reasons I enjoy reading it is that there are no testing stuff (just doesn't interest me) and the reviewers actually try to describe what they hear and if it isn't performing optimally or what they expect atit's price point they try things out and explain what they have done. I like the layout of the magazine.

I doubt I could even tell you who is advertising in it. I just don't bother.

Many moons ago when I was first looking for a turntable, a delaer was advertising that they had ALL the what hifi? Award winners. these included decks by Rega, Michell and Project. I set out one Saturday, found the dealer and had a wander round. There wasn't a single turntable on show. One of the guys in there comes over to me and asks if I need help , I explain why I'm there. He explains that the only turntable they could get in is a Roksan Radius (the old model not the new one).

So basically this dealer had put an advert in a magazine that was actively misleading.

I haven't bothered with adverts since.

Neil McCauley
24-10-2008, 09:44
Nice to see you here David.

Togil
24-10-2008, 16:17
I've been a subscriber to hifi+ almost since the start. One of the reasons I enjoy reading it is that there are no testing stuff (just doesn't interest me) and the reviewers actually try to describe what they hear and if it isn't performing optimally or what they expect atit's price point they try things out and explain what they have done. I like the layout of the magazine.



Well HiFi+ have just done two old-fashioned "over the top" rave reviews of the ( technically extremely interesting ) Berning Quadrature amplifier and the Magico V3 speakers - let's see if they stand the test of time or , in the case of the Magicos, if it's going the way of the Scintillas ( remember the rave reviews of those ? )

David Price
25-10-2008, 01:43
Nice to see you here David.

Likewise Howard! We should have a chinwag on the dog and bone sometime!

David Price
25-10-2008, 02:11
It's almost impossible for a hi-fi publication to be completely objective when testing, the writers have generally been in the hi-fi game for years and years and consequently have expectations and experience of what manufacturers offer. This has to influence their opinion either negatively or positively as their test then becomes subjective, however subjectivity from memory is tricky as if one recalls something that was very good from a while ago, the mind tends to hold it in exceptional light if the current point of comparison is not as impressive. This leads to an inner monologue along the lines of "well, it's not as good as X, and it's certainly nowhere near as good as Y" etc etc. Of course a strict A/B comparison may yield more accurate results but publications inevitably don't have the time.

As for Howard's original question, there is a notable decline in magazines of every genre, except maybe computer related magazines, and that's the crux of the reason; when one is looking for information on anything the first port of call is usually Google.

It's always helpful not to go in with a fixed idea of how it's going to sound, but if the product is built like a dog's dinner it does tend to put you off, I suppose. Still, I try to suspend my (dis)belief about anything until I've put it against my particular price reference - having something consistent to put everything you review against is invaluable. In truth though, I think the biggest challenge for reviewers is finding sympathetic ancillaries for the review task in hand; for example you don't want to be using a single-ended triode tube amp to review the new Rogers LS3/5as with their 82dB/1W sensitivity! Getting the kit to give of its best in your system can be a right pain, but is essential for a fair review. Also, getting particular speakers to work in particular rooms, but that deserves a strand of its own!

Yes - the UK hi-fi mag circulation is down a good few percentage points, depending on the title, year on year. There are a number of factors explaining this, not least the credit crunch and the downturn in hardware sales. I'm not convinced, unlike Howard perhaps, that it's curtains for the mags, but I suspect they'll be migrating to fully electronic forms at some time or another, with the option to buy a print issue (or even print your own). Actually, this model suits independent mags like Hi-Fi World, as we struggle with the logistics of shifting tens of thousands of mags to newsagents much more than the 'majors', let alone persuading WH Smith etc. to actually put the things on shelves. I still think many will stick with print though, and I suspect that as most move to online there will actually be a move back to print for some titles, simply to because well designed mags are lovely artefacts.

Mick Parry
25-10-2008, 08:35
Chaps

There will always be magazines but thanks to fora such as this, there will be less of them.

Basically the internet is changing everything and that includes leisure mags.

Regards

Mick

sastusbulbas
27-10-2008, 11:25
Hi all,

I thought magazines have been within a steady decline of quality content and explanation for years!

Since the early 90's people wrote in to magazines after certain reviews asking for explanation on products like cable and racks and the supposed benefit of mains, they never got satisfactory replies to why such massive improvements could be had with such items which had no clear technical merit measurable at home.

That is when the rot started!

And I am sure everyone is quite aware of the advert years and trends, where every year or so certain well advertised brands seem to get the best reviews?

And of course many probably felt that reviewers views were nothing more than personal opinion after a point, after all it is how many product reviews started to read, with many reviewers systems themselves under constant development it was a little apparent that many reviews were getting no better than any old opinion offered by anyone who had taken an item on home dem and discussed it on a forum.

Another example is HiFi Choice! This months magazine showed exactly the mentality which has brought them down. A reader wrote in asking about reviewing servers against each other, and one of the reviewers dismissed the idea as being pointless due to the different codecs, software and such!

What a stupid response! Akin to saying we cannot do conclusive reviews of CD players as they use different transport mechanisms, DAC chips, and processing software with different analogue output circuits!

Magazines have lost their use in audio, because the world has became aware that these self appointed "experts" are a dime a dozen on internet fora. They offer more adds than ever, and offer inconsistent single page reviews of product which little apparent merit or technical debate any more And just about every product scores highly, regardless of how thorough the review.
Cambridge Audio Dacmagic. One review, pretty basic reading, product of the year! In the same issue!
Magazines have became pathetic value for money with no real effort being put into them.

HiFi+ started off good, but as they got their freebies and the money came in, so did their egos and opinions seem to change, HiFi+ now have heir heads pretty much in the clouds. My interest was lost, it was practically the same text with model numbers cut n pasted. My subscription was left to die.

HiFi news became like HiFi choice but with poorer quality paper, another subscription that was ignored until it went away.

Hi Fi choice, quite a lot of those have never even been opened, I may have to get pro active and actually cancel that.

Hi Fi World, well it's always had it's highs and lows, sadly though no shops near me sell it any more. And they offer no enticing offers to temp subscribing. Shame because it is enjoyable if a little vague at times.

griffo104
27-10-2008, 13:30
Well HiFi+ have just done two old-fashioned "over the top" rave reviews of the ( technically extremely interesting ) Berning Quadrature amplifier and the Magico V3 speakers - let's see if they stand the test of time or , in the case of the Magicos, if it's going the way of the Scintillas ( remember the rave reviews of those ? )

I don't see the harm in that. First, Alan sircom reviewed the Magicos. I like the way he writes, he's enthusiastic and he mentions in the review thatthere are speakers that do certain things better but his enthusiasm for the way these speakers make music put a smile on my face. Why shouldn't a reviewer getting his hands on a new brand of speaker go a little OTT if he's enjoyed them ? That's what the hobby is all about.

As for the berning, I've chatted to a few people who own these amps, although not the particular model reviewed. these guys enthuse in much the same way as the original reviewer, and sunbsequently the editor. They say the same things so I do put a bit more trut in the review.

This hobby is about equipment making you enjoy music, if reviewers get carried away then what's wrong with that. Read the tone of Sircom's Magico review, it made me want to go and slap a record on the deck.

I'll never own a pair of Magicos. I simply don't earn enough but why can't I enjoy reading someone's opinion of them ?

there is just as much, if not more, bullshit coming from people on forums then there biased reviews from reviewers.

What this hobby needs is for people to remember it's supposed to be fun, hif+ still does it for me, where else will I read reviews of amplifiers such as Belles and carts by Air Tight as well as a phono review where they decided the cheapest was the most fun to listen to.

Magazines serve a purpose, if it wasn't for Hifi World I would never have gotten in to turntables, it was there enthusiasm while all others were barking on about the latest sounds the same cd player that made me WANT to go out and listen to one.

The forums are good the chat and you soon pick up on the people who are muppets with no clue what's going on, just as you do with reviewers.

Would you trust a bloke in a pub to tell you how to spend £5k on a cd player ? No of course not but some people's attitudes are that if someone on a forum does then they must be right.

Marco
27-10-2008, 13:38
And there was me thinking that you rated my opinion, Griffo! I'm deeply hurt, dahling... Hehe :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

griffo104
27-10-2008, 13:49
And there was me thinking that you rated my opinion, Griffo! I'm deeply hurt, dahling... Hehe :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

It's a good point though :)

How many people will tell you the DL103 is a great cart and a bargain? How many people have actually been there and found what you have ? If I went on some forums it may be a bog standard reply to a query, few if any will come out and say that the DL103 is a serious mismatch with a Rega arm. I'm not stating you are a genius but you talk from actual experience and not forum hearsay.

If someone asks for an amp recommendation, I will very rarely recommend my own amps but if some one asks about going active or Linn amps then my opinion becomes much more valid. I see you points valid in a similar way.

there are too many trends on forums and too many people recommending their own gear. this isn't always suitable for the person asking the query but it's all the person thinks he knows best and this is what he bought. Reviewers don't do that. They get a much wider view of the equipment ut there and, yes, they will have favourites and personal choices but some times it just isn't for them. A review of the AA Maestro ii in Hifi+ was like that. the reviewer wasn't too keen but described the sound it appealed to me. I ended up buying one second hand and being very happy with it. For a review it was quite negative but the reviewer did his job, he expleined what it sounded like and that it wasn't for him but it tweaked my curiosity.

This is what a review should be, imo.

Marco
28-10-2008, 17:21
Griffo,

Sorry for my delay in replying. I got caught up yesterday in a discussion with Tim on another thread!


How many people will tell you the DL103 is a great cart and a bargain? How many people have actually been there and found what you have ?


Only a few that I know of, and they only done so after me banging on about how good it was (when partnered and set-up properly) here and elsewhere over the years.


If I went on some forums it may be a bog standard reply to a query, few if any will come out and say that the DL103 is a serious mismatch with a Rega arm. I'm not stating you are a genius but you talk from actual experience and not forum hearsay.


And so it will always be. It's also something we insist from our members on AOS. It's quite obvious when people are 'talking through a hole in their arse' and have no practical experience of what they're discussing. When this is detected here it is challenged accordingly, but it happens very rarely simply because the standard of contributions from our members is particularly high. This is one of the things I feel makes us different from other audio forums. The amount of bullshit that's allowed to go unchallenged sometimes elsewhere is incredible. We want AOS to be a valuable information resource so the quality of its content must subsequently be of a high standard.

Incidentally, I wouldn't say that a 103 is a "serious mismatch" with a Rega arm, merely that it's not ideally suitable.

Because the hi-fi section of the forum is 'serious' and tightly controlled we tend to attract knowledgeable and experienced individuals who are able to express themselves eloquently, and that's one of the main reasons why the forum has a different 'feel' to others and why we're successful even in the face of such a variety of competition. AOS will never be a playground for 'willy-waving' and inane circular arguments due to brand loyalty disputes and defensive reactions towards such being taken to ludicrous levels. The amount of bullshit threads elsewhere started about Naim for example is ridiculous but I know the guys at Salisbury HQ find it all rather amusing!!


If someone asks for an amp recommendation, I will very rarely recommend my own amps but if some one asks about going active or Linn amps then my opinion becomes much more valid. I see you points valid in a similar way.


Indeed, and that's the way it should always be. You can only recommend something from a position of practical experience. I will also only recommend equipment I use to someone else if it is relevant to do so. I will not simply say 'buy a DL-103' if I don't think it'll work properly in someone's system or they're liable not to like its sonic effect. You have to ask the right questions to properly understand the nature of an enquiry and then subsequently you'll be in a position to give good advice.


there are too many trends on forums and too many people recommending their own gear. this isn't always suitable for the person asking the query but it's all the person thinks he knows best and this is what he bought. Reviewers don't do that. They get a much wider view of the equipment ut there and, yes, they will have favourites and personal choices but some times it just isn't for them. A review of the AA Maestro ii in Hifi+ was like that. the reviewer wasn't too keen but described the sound it appealed to me. I ended up buying one second hand and being very happy with it. For a review it was quite negative but the reviewer did his job, he expleined what it sounded like and that it wasn't for him but it tweaked my curiosity.

This is what a review should be, imo.


I completely agree, and like you say, hi-fi magazines run under the right principles can be a useful tool for piquing one's interest in a particular component which wouldn't normally have entered our radar. Hi-fi World is a bit like that for me :)

Marco.