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tfarney
18-07-2008, 03:24
Have I said anything skeptical or disparaging about them? God, I'm sorry. I have long been a valve luddite when it comes to guitar amps. I have a POD (valve amp modeling device) but it's not the same. There are tubes (valves) and everything else, when it comes to that thing that happens when a guitar amplifier responds to your hands, to the attack of fingers and pick on strings, as if it were a part of the dynamics of the instrument itself. But I never quite believed in tubes and hifi. I'm not even sure why. I'm currently in possession of a loaner. a Glow Audio Amp One. A simple, quite small, single-ended pentode (EL 84s, your basic Chinese tubes, I think) amp. And three Knob Creeks (I have no idea what the single-malt scotch answer to this might be. Exceedingly refined and smooth. A bit sweet, actually) and about 50 tunes into it. I haven't even hooked up any speakers at this point. I'm just listening through headphones, as is my passion -- Sennheiser HD580s to be exact. And I can give you a definitively American, one word review:

Damn.

OK, three words: Freak. In. Damn.

God help me. This is going to cost me so much before it's over....

Tim

Marco
18-07-2008, 08:04
LOL. See what you've gone and done, Tim? :eyebrows:

Thing is, I am more certain than certain can be that valves (done well) are the way to go with hi-fi. They unquestionably unravel and reveal layers of detail and musical information in the mid and top end that SS devices completely miss (it's a question of dynamic range, I feel) and this manifests itself on music in a quite beguiling way. Modern valve amps (with suitable speakers) get the bass spot-on, too.

SS amps, even the best ones, sound dull and lifeless in comparison - the key words there are in comparison, because until you've heard what a good valve amp does solid-state amps sound anything but dull and lifeless. However once your ears become attuned to the 'valve effect' there's simply no going back.

Strap yourself in for the ride - this one will have a happy ending :)

Marco.

tfarney
18-07-2008, 13:29
Not sure it's detail or microdynamics I hear, Marco. I'm not sure what it is I hear. I know its much closer to my old 70's Harman Kardon integrated than it is to modern SS, but it's not quite that either. There is something else there. I can't put my finger on it. I think I'll listen exclusively to it for a few days, through the Senns, then switch to the old Harman Kardon and see what I get. That should tell my ears a story. Probably one with a final chapter in my wallet.

Tim

Marco
18-07-2008, 14:03
Lol. All valve gear is different, Tim, so I'm in no way trying to predict what you're hearing; all I can recount is my own experiences.

However, having compared a number of valve amps with a number of solid-state amps over a reasonable period of time it has become quite clear to me that valves have more 'real world' dynamic range than certainly any of the transistor amps I've heard or used.

By 'real world' I mean in relation to music signals even if the difference isn't measurable in an electrical sense. In effect the musical reproduction of properly designed valve equipment is, certainly in my experience, more faithful to the sound of real instruments and voices such that 'realism' is accentuated and felt to a greater degree.

It's not a hi-fi thing, so one can't effectively analyse it on those terms. It's something far more intrinsic to the musical message which the ear and brain interpret as real and then hard-wire direct to our pleasure centre...

And it just makes you want to listen to music more and more and more. If that makes any sense?

Marco.

Togil
18-07-2008, 14:13
Just to clarify Marco, have you ever heard the Dartzeel amps ?

Marco
18-07-2008, 14:26
Nope, Hans, I've not heard the Dartzeels but I have a big respect for Swiss hi-fi (and German, for that matter; it appeals to my audio sensibilities). The Dartzeels are said to be incredibly good, though, and apparently marry the best of valves and solid-state - at a price!!

Marco.

Togil
18-07-2008, 14:40
Yes it seems strange , very good SS gear is ( necessarily ? ) expensive, I used to think it was the other way round ( because of the cost of the transformer )

I'm hoping to borrow a Dartzeel power amp soon...

tfarney
18-07-2008, 14:51
And it just makes you want to listen to music more and more and more. If that makes any sense?

Marco.

I'd better get the thing out of the house as quickly as possible, then. If I listen to music more and more (or much more), I'll end up divorced. Damned expensive amp that would be. :scratch:

Tim

Marco
18-07-2008, 14:56
Hans,

That should be very interesting. I would love to hear about that. Be sure to report it on the forum, preferably with pictures :)

My suspicion though is that the effect I'm referring to with valves cannot be fully replicated in solid-state gear, no matter the cost. It is something fundamental in the design of the valve itself which gives reproduced music its magic.

Marco.

Marco
18-07-2008, 15:00
I'd better get the thing out of the house as quickly as possible, then. If I listen to music more and more (or much more), I'll end up divorced. Damned expensive amp that would be. :scratch:


Tim, there are many things in life that are addictive; valve amps and music are but two ;)

Marco.

Neil McCauley
18-07-2008, 15:03
........ And it just makes you want to listen to music more and more and more. If that makes any sense?


Marco.

In 32 years (on and off) of being in dialogue with literally thousand of customers (a fair percentage of who were not mine) that statement is the ONLY one that has made and continues to make consistent sense.



--///---

lurcher
18-07-2008, 15:30
My suspicion though is that the effect I'm referring to with valves cannot be fully replicated in solid-state gear, no matter the cost. It is something fundamental in the design of the valve itself which gives reproduced music its magic.

Personally I think you are looking at that in the wrong direction Marco :-)

There is something fundamental in the design of solid state devices that creates a subtle (ie very had to measure) but vital disconnect from reality that causes the problem our brain has (the one I wittered about before, in the whats more important, speakers or amps) to suspend belief and regard what you are hearing as real.

Marco
18-07-2008, 15:37
Personally I think you are looking at that in the wrong direction Marco :-)


Possibly, Nick. I like your way of looking at it!

Either way, SS doesn't appear to cut it.

Marco.

Ali Tait
18-07-2008, 19:46
Certainly would agree with Nick regarding sand amps.I wouldn't pretend to have a vast listening knowledge regarding such,but wot Nick sez has been my personal experience of them.Which is why I like valve stuff.Something I read some time ago stuck a chord in me though,in that the article (can't remember where I read it) said something to the effect that directly heated triodes (I think the article was concentrating on the 300b in particular) have a distortion characteristic that closely follows the distortion characteristics of the Human ear over the audible frequency range,hence perhaps one reason why they sound so natural and "real" to many of us.Certainly sounds that way to me!

Marco
18-07-2008, 19:53
Something I read some time ago stuck a chord in me though,in that the article (can't remember where I read it) said something to the effect that directly heated triodes (I think the article was concentrating on the 300b in particular) have a distortion characteristic that closely follows the distortion characteristics of the Human ear over the audible frequency range,hence perhaps one reason why they sound so natural and "real" to many of us.


Good point, Ali. I can relate to that. I don't think it's exclusively applicable to the 300b or triodes/SETs, though. I hear the same thing with KT88s, etc, in push-pulls.

Btw, I've been meaning to ask for a while but kept forgetting, why are SS amps referred to as "sand amps"? Excuse my ignorance, but where does the sand come in? :confused:

Marco.

anthonyTD
18-07-2008, 20:27
Good point, Ali. I can relate to that. I don't think it's exclusively applicable to the 300b or triodes/SETs, though. I hear the same thing with KT88s, etc, in push-pulls.

Btw, I've been meaning to ask for a while but kept forgetting, why are SS amps referred to as "sand amps"? Excuse my ignorance, but where does the sand come in? :confused:

Marco.

SAND , silicone!!!
also ali, it is true that our ears prefer some types of distortion, second order in fact, and higher orders of even harmonics of the original etc, but loath even small amounts of third harmonics, and their respected higher order. anyone ever wondered why most conventional single ended valve amps use triode configuration. over to you nick...
anthony...:)

lurcher
18-07-2008, 21:36
anyone ever wondered why most conventional single ended valve amps use triode configuration. over to you nick...

I have just spent the last five minutes trying to arrive at a single simple answer to this, and every time I end up with a more complex answer than I want. Its rearly a combination of reasons that all make the triode the best option for the output stage of an amplifier. specially a single ended one, its a bit more divided for a push pull output stage, but thats another discussion. Simply put, its all in the curves. The way a triode amplifies, tends to produce even order harmonics, the way a pentode amplifies produces more odd order.

But I can't leave it there, thats way less than half the truth. Pentodes can be very linear devices as well, but the thing that makes them a pentode also contains the seed of their problem as a output device. They have a high internal resistance, unlike a triode that has a low internal resistance. The low resistance means a triode can be effectivly closer coupled to the loudspeaker. But on the other hand, the pentode has much higher gain (again due to the same reason they have a high internal resistance), and much more extended HF response (again a result of what causes the high resistance). The high gain, and good HF response, means the high problem resistance can be resolved through the use of feedback, or they can be run in whats called ultra-linear, which is in effect a mixture of triode and pentode operation. Feedback can be very effective in reducing the resistance of a pentode when in a push pull amp, as the cancelation of current in the transformer means that its possible to produce a transformer with a very wide frequency response, and this allows feedback to be used effectivly. But the high standing current requirement of a single ended transformer makes it very hard to produce a transformer with extended enough response to allow feedback to be used, so its necessary to use a device with low distortion and low internal resistance, and that leads us directly back to a triode.

See, I tried to make the answer simple, but it would have been misleading, and something along the lines of "triode are more linear" which is the often quoted reason on the web, but so far from the simple truth to be unhelpfull.

I will go and get me coat now...

anthonyTD
19-07-2008, 19:52
I have just spent the last five minutes trying to arrive at a single simple answer to this, and every time I end up with a more complex answer than I want. Its rearly a combination of reasons that all make the triode the best option for the output stage of an amplifier. specially a single ended one, its a bit more divided for a push pull output stage, but thats another discussion. Simply put, its all in the curves. The way a triode amplifies, tends to produce even order harmonics, the way a pentode amplifies produces more odd order.

But I can't leave it there, thats way less than half the truth. Pentodes can be very linear devices as well, but the thing that makes them a pentode also contains the seed of their problem as a output device. They have a high internal resistance, unlike a triode that has a low internal resistance. The low resistance means a triode can be effectivly closer coupled to the loudspeaker. But on the other hand, the pentode has much higher gain (again due to the same reason they have a high internal resistance), and much more extended HF response (again a result of what causes the high resistance). The high gain, and good HF response, means the high problem resistance can be resolved through the use of feedback, or they can be run in whats called ultra-linear, which is in effect a mixture of triode and pentode operation. Feedback can be very effective in reducing the resistance of a pentode when in a push pull amp, as the cancelation of current in the transformer means that its possible to produce a transformer with a very wide frequency response, and this allows feedback to be used effectivly. But the high standing current requirement of a single ended transformer makes it very hard to produce a transformer with extended enough response to allow feedback to be used, so its necessary to use a device with low distortion and low internal resistance, and that leads us directly back to a triode.

See, I tried to make the answer simple, but it would have been misleading, and something along the lines of "triode are more linear" which is the often quoted reason on the web, but so far from the simple truth to be unhelpfull.

I will go and get me coat now...

well put nick,
that is exactly the reason why i invited someone else to explain things from the way they see it, especially someone like nick who by the looks of his output valve collection knows a thing or two about triodes! and the misconceptions often written about their lineararity over pentodes and tetrodes.
as nick explained there is in fact drawbacks from using either types of devices, but in each case the fix is different. It all depends on the designer's requirements, and of course the knowledge and necessary materials needed to overcome each devices shortfalls. My choice is to use big tetrodes eg, KT88, the reason being, they fit my design criteria, also i feel i have enough experience of tetrodes to enable me to get the best from them in a paticular configuration, be it push-pull or single ended.
As stated this is by no means the best option for every situation, its just my preference.
anthony...

StanleyB
19-07-2008, 20:37
My choice is to use big tetrodes eg, KT88,

:exactly:. KT66 if you are on a budget.

anthonyTD
20-07-2008, 08:47
:exactly:. KT66 if you are on a budget.
i agree,
the KT66 is an excelent valve wether it be tetrode connected or triode, i would even go as far to say, a KT66 when connected as a triode, its performance can be compareable to a true triode, a PX4... for example.
anthony...

lurcher
20-07-2008, 09:45
i agree,
the KT66 is an excelent valve wether it be tetrode connected or triode, i would even go as far to say, a KT66 when connected as a triode, its performance can be compareable to a true triode, a PX4... for example.
anthony...

As in you can compare them and find one better than the other :-)

But yes, they do make very good triodes, but IMHO, the real magic requires a DHT, but to get to that point isn't trivial, requires huge effort in the quality of the power supply and driver stage, and after all that may not be to everyones liking.

Mike
20-07-2008, 12:11
DHT = ???

Directly Heated Triode, maybe?

Marco
20-07-2008, 12:43
Indeed. Can I make a request please to all 'techies' when explaining something and using abbreviations for technical terms that you put what it stands for in brackets?

Much as we (laymen) enjoy your contributions, it would be helpful if you tailored your responses if possible so that they can be understood by *everyone* on the forum. This is not Practical Scientist ;)

Thank you in advance :)

Marco.

tfarney
25-07-2008, 10:39
Well, after a solid week of listening to the little Glow Amp One, and a lot of listening, a good 20 hours I'd guess, I switched back to the old Harmon Kardon yesterday.

First of all, a little background - the old HK is not just any junk from the 70s. It is really nice junk from the 70s. It is an A-402, a great beneficiary of trickle-down; essentially a low-powered (45 watts per) Citation integrated amp. True dual mono design with a pair of hefty transformers, semi-parametric tone controls, tone bi-pass, yada, yada. It does not have the speed or tiny noise numbers of contemporary solid state (then again, neither do valve amps), but it has always had TONE. In spades. And it still has it. Recently serviced, it is running up to specs.

So what do I hear between the boutique valves and the old integrated? Not a lot, frankly. I'm not saying my initial enthusiasm for the Glow was just the three Knob Creeks, there is something there, but it is quite subtle.

The first thing I noticed when switching back to the old HK was bass. The HK's bass is bigger and more powerful. Some might even call it a bit bloated, but it is not unpleasant or masking. It gets out of the way quick enough. It just has a LOT of punch. So you could say the HK wins that round, depending on your taste. I certainly never felt that the Glow was bass deficient in my week of listening, though.

The next thing I heard was the highs. After a week of listening to the Glow, the old HK's highs seem a bit thin for the first time in 30 years of listening. It is very subtle, but I think I hear it.

The mids - another subtlety, but a lovely one. I guess this is the famous valve magic. I don't believe in magic, but there it is. The critical mids - voices, horns, stringed instruments - seem to have an extra presence. They feel slightly forward without feeling boosted. They seem to have a smooth polish that manages to take off that tiny, almost imperceptible touch of grain, without losing any detail.

And that's it. That's the difference between a modern tube amp that has received rave reviews and a 30-something Harman Kardonn integrated amp. All of that, by the way, is listening to Apple lossless files through a simple, but very good-sounding DAC in a Trends digital transport to my Sennheiser HD580s, so while I can't comment on sound stage, I used my best window into tone, detail and dynamics.

Here's the bottom line for me: I will not have to run out and buy a tube (valve) amp this week. I'll get my full-range monitors first. But I may have to have one eventually. What I heard there was small, was subtle, was probably not even measurable. But it was pretty compelling. And that was with, as you Scotch/Irish/Welsh/English gentlemen say, bog-standard Chinese tubes.

I've tube-rolled guitar amps before. I know what that can do. I will, in time. do it with a hifi amp.

Tim

Prince of Darkness
25-07-2008, 11:43
Hi Tim,
I think some of the members born in Scotland might object to being referred to as Scotch, though I think it is technically correct. The preferred term is Scots or at a push Scottish.:) Scotch is the Whisky.:lol:

tfarney
25-07-2008, 14:26
Hi Tim,
I think some of the members born in Scotland might object to being referred to as Scotch, though I think it is technically correct. The preferred term is Scots or at a push Scottish.:) Scotch is the Whisky.:lol:

I'm sure you're right. Sorry about that, Scots. My error comes from a very common (mis?)use in these parts, where there are many people of a mixed decent that is predominantly Scottish + Irish. We call them Scotch/Irish. It is, perhaps, inaccurate, but is considered more polite than calling them curs, the technical term...I think I'd best throw in one of these: :)

Tim

PS: Another common use of a word that has a different meaning here than in the UK is, as coincidence would have it, "Scotch." Over there, I believe you use it to identify a fine, rather dry Whisky of Scottish decent. Here, we use it to describe stuff commonly imported under that name, which tastes like passable bourbon, filtered through unlaundered socks. Here, have another: ;)

Prince of Darkness
25-07-2008, 14:55
Another common use of a word that has a different meaning here than in the UK is, as coincidence would have it, "Scotch." Over there, I believe you use it to identify a fine, rather dry Whisky of Scottish decent. Here, we use it to describe stuff commonly imported under that name, which tastes like passable bourbon, filtered through unlaundered socks. Here, have another: ;)

With regard to the whisky, in Britain and the E.C. countries Scotch must be produced in Scotland. Outside the E.C. the rules vary. The quality and type of true Scotch also varies. There are Single Malts, containing only malt whisky produced at a single distillery. Vatted Malts, containing malt whisky produced at more than one distillery. Single Grain, containing only grain whisky produced at a single distillery. By far the most common are the blends, which contain malts from several distilleries along with grain whisky. All types vary from superb:) to disgusting:(.

Mike
25-07-2008, 15:07
There are Single Malts, containing only malt whisky produced at a single distillery.

Now there's a good idea!...

I'm off to the shops! :cheers:

tfarney
25-07-2008, 15:13
With regard to the whisky, in Britain and the E.C. countries Scotch must be produced in Scotland. Outside the E.C. the rules vary. The quality and type of true Scotch also varies. There are Single Malts, containing only malt whisky produced at a single distillery. Vatted Malts, containing malt whisky produced at more than one distillery. Single Grain, containing only grain whisky produced at a single distillery. By far the most common are the blends, which contain malts from several distilleries along with grain whisky. All types vary from superb:) to disgusting:(.

All of the above applies to bourbon as well, though some of the terms are different -- "single barrel," "small batch" are common. So are blends. And all of those varieties and qualities of Scotch are available here, if you're willing to pay the price. My last post was meant as a gentle poke. I've tried a few different Scotches. I'm sure it's a matter of taste, but I find I can enjoy fairly inexpensive, well-done bourbon, but can really only tolerate pretty pricey Scotch. A good glass of whiskey is a thing of beauty, regardless of its origins. The Canadians even make a few worth drinking.

Tim

Ali Tait
25-07-2008, 20:47
:) Nice to see my post provoked a little reaction! I do have to say though,scotch is what Americans call whisky! We don't call it that. :)

alb
25-07-2008, 21:25
I seem to remember being warned about asking for a Scotch when i was out drinking in Glasgow. Better off asking for whisky, which is what it is.

Marco
25-07-2008, 21:30
Yes, but without an 'e' ;)

In Glasgow you would simply ask for a whisky, meaning you would end up with a popular blended brand such as Bells or Grouse. Or if you specified malt you would most likely get Glenfiddich. More exotic brands such as Glenmorangie, Dalwhinnie etc, would have to be specfied by name, if available.

Just don't go into the wrong pub with a Celtic or Rangers scarf on!! :lol:

Marco.

Cotlake
25-07-2008, 21:41
Being Glasgow my experience is you actually ask for a 'half' which'll get you a half of lager and a chaser measure of blended whiskey, usually Grouse as this seems to be the most popular blend in this city.

Marco
25-07-2008, 21:48
Greg, that's called a 'howf and a howf' (half and a half). If you want just a whisky, you ask for a whisky :)

And there's no bloody 'e' in it! LOL ;)

Marco.

Ali Tait
25-07-2008, 22:30
Since when is Grouse a malt?????

Marco
25-07-2008, 22:37
Sorry, whisky-boy, I shall amend that toute-suite ;)

You can tell that I'm more a beer and wine man! :lol:

Marco.

tfarney
25-07-2008, 23:38
WhiskEy, whiskEy, whiskEy...

There. I feel better now. I'm drinking some, as we speak. A very smooth, refined, lightly sweet, small batch straight Kentucky whiskey. And yes, the e is right there on the bottle. There is an e in whisky over here. Spellcheck in Word even underlines the word if I leave the e off. It's one of those American things...

Tim

Iain Sinclair
26-07-2008, 09:52
WhiskEy, whiskEy, whiskEy...

There. I feel better now. I'm drinking some, as we speak. A very smooth, refined, lightly sweet, small batch straight Kentucky whiskey. And yes, the e is right there on the bottle. There is an e in whisky over here. Spellcheck in Word even underlines the word if I leave the e off. It's one of those American things...

Tim

It's also an Irish thing: Irish whiskey; Scottish whisky.

I can't stand either meself. I prefer gin and tonic.

Steve Toy
26-07-2008, 13:07
Thread drift but at least we are still taking about bottles.

Marco
26-07-2008, 15:05
Good one Steve! The only 'glass' you need to worry about now mate is the one on your camera phone lens... ;)


WhiskEy, whiskEy, whiskEy...

There. I feel better now. I'm drinking some, as we speak. A very smooth, refined, lightly sweet, small batch straight Kentucky whiskey. And yes, the e is right there on the bottle. There is an e in whisky over here. Spellcheck in Word even underlines the word if I leave the e off. It's one of those American things...


Hehe... You're right of course, Tim. What I was getting at was when referring to Scottish whisky, as Greg was earlier, there is no 'e'.

I actually in many cases prefer good Burbon, like Wild Turkey for example, to any kind of whisky. It suits my palette better.

But then, give me a big stonkingly rich red wine such as Amarone or Brunello, or perhaps a nice Saint-Émilion, and I'd gladly chuck any of the above in the bin! :lolsign:

I'm a foodie, so I like alcohol that best compliments (proper) food, and as far as I'm concerned that's wine, beer, and cider.

Marco.

StanleyB
26-07-2008, 15:07
Thread drift but at least we are still taking about bottles.
..with an orange glow. And also needs replacing from time to time since they don't last forever. You can also get normal, high-end, and esoteric.

Marco
26-07-2008, 19:34
LOL. I'm not quite following you there, Stan... And the significance of that is? :)

Or is this just a cunning plan to get the thread back on topic?

Marco.