PDA

View Full Version : doesn't anyone have an opinion



gary
16-07-2008, 22:51
what does a naim lover do to upgrade appart from the usual spend megabucks on naim stuff

Marco
17-07-2008, 00:44
Gary,

Plenty of opinion on this. Will post tomorrow. Off to bed!

Laters,
Marco.

Steve Toy
17-07-2008, 01:29
Densen is a good value-for-money alternative to Naim. A top-flight Densen system (B400XS/B250/B330 or B350 monoblocks) holds its own against anything by Naim this side of the CDS 555/Nac 552/Nap 500 combo (imho.)

Ok it will still cost you around the 10k mark for the above boxes.

Then you have modern valve amplifiers - the ones that do bass drive and PR&T. Our resident valve amp designer Anthony TD can modify either a Yaqin or a Puresound amp from China. The latter is already pretty good for the money and is ready to use. The former has a lot of potential but don't even switch it on if you manage to get one off Ebay. Just send it to Anthony who will not only make it safe but will make it sound better too.

Marco and I have already done this. I've gone for the Puresound as my starting point, Marco went for the Yaqin that he picked up off Fleabay for around £300. The Puresound cost me £1100 but it comes with decent transformers and a circuit that work with UK voltages.

Either which way you'll get a killer amp capable of seeing off most commercial offerings this side of 5k for around £1800 or less.

We both come from a Naim background so we don't exactly go for a pipe, slippers and chin-stroking sound. What we do get is an amp that, into the right speakers (90+ dB and either 4 or 8ohm but not too much in the way of deviation from the stated nominal impedance across the frequency range), gives you all the PR&T you could wish for with added realism, separation, tonal colour and texture thrown in for good measure.

John
17-07-2008, 06:16
I heard the upgraded Yaqin very good value once its been upgraded a few other atlernatives along the valve route would include SAC from Thailand no upgrade needed and they sound great also might be wirth checking out the world Audio designs as well. A more expensive option would be EAR

StanleyB
17-07-2008, 07:00
Quite a few Naim owners from just about every part of the globe have been buying my Beresford TC-7510 DAC in the last couple of months. It gets mentioned regularly on the Naim forums. Do a search there to confirm. I am not clued up why that is, since we are talking about my £110 DAC versus Naim stuff costing 20X or more. But a lot of them have emailed me to say it is a worthwhile addition that allows them to add things like SB3 or Airport Express, and they get to keep their original Naim stuff.

Stan

gary
17-07-2008, 07:55
What would you avoid

jandl100
17-07-2008, 08:23
I know that some Naim owners have been pleasantly surprised when they have tried even a cheap valve amp! A very different presentation which gives a different view on the music.

jandl100
17-07-2008, 08:31
Quite a few Naim owners from just about every part of the globe have been buying my Beresford TC-7510 DAC in the last couple of months.

Stan

Hey! Hi Stan - so you've been hiding out in the Naim forum, huh? No wonder I haven't spotted you around.

Yup, I can strongly recommend the Beresford DAC as a good sound at far too cheap a price - I've told Stan in the past that he could and should charge far more for this excellent sounding device! :)

Lots of digital inputs and outputs & a fine headphone amp included too! - here it is on eBay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Beresford-TC-7510-MK6-3-DAC-Digital-to-Analog-Converter_W0QQitemZ320274915887QQihZ011QQcategoryZ 3272QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Oh, and it's got a pre-amp/volume control section, too. Honestly, Stan, you should be charging £300 for this - and it would still be a sonic bargain!

purite audio
17-07-2008, 08:41
Gary Hi, you have to go and listen to some different systems, speakers make the most difference, try and find a pair of speakers you like and then build a system around them, if you are going to keep your current speakers ( what are they btw ) then you need to look for an amp that will drive them properly, personally I would stay away from valves unless your speakers are very efficient, Keith.
Gary just saw your other thread proacs! Jerry ( jandl100 )had a pair of those fairly recently I believe.

Togil
17-07-2008, 09:10
I think he has Proacs Future.

I would go for a good Class A amp ( Pass Lab , Dartzeel ) or Nuforce Class D, the latter leaves plenty of spare cash for a good preamp .

StanleyB
17-07-2008, 09:53
Hi Jerry, yep been hanging around for a while on some of the high-end manufacturers forums so get inputs on what folks are looking for sound wise in a high-end DAC. When I tell them my price they wet themselves laughing... But the last laugh has been on me with the very good responses after purchase. Naim even emailed me with a free sample request;)... Thanks for the eBay link by the way. Took less than 15 minutes to be snapped up after that...

Coming back to the original request though: a Naim guy in the US mentioned to me that his wife upgraded the living room furniture and changed the lay out, resulting in a new lease of life in his Naim:scratch:. He wrote that bass in the softer chairs is far more intense on his piles:lol:. Double bass cuts across his chest like a surgeon's scalpel. And guitar strings sound more like a friendly no holds barred Mexican bar entertainer eager to show off his skills, instead of a professional musicians under pressure to get it absolutely perfect in an expensive studio setup.
Fancy the wife finding a solution with less than U$K spent:steam:.

Marco
17-07-2008, 10:01
Hanging around on the Naim forum, eh Stanley? You seem to have survived the ordeal and escaped unscathed :eyebrows:

Seriously though, good news on the sample request. I hope it develops into something lucrative for you. Oh, and I hope your good lady is on the mend now :)

Nice to see you back and posting.

Marco.

StanleyB
17-07-2008, 10:33
Hi Marco, the missus is looking far better now thanks.

I had to go underground for a while in order to work on a few affordable solutions to some audio product problems in general. Trust the economy to do a nose dive just now...

Yep, the bad ol' dayz being chained and gagged in a tent are now just mere distant memories. And the mistresses have finally left once I cancelled their credit cards:eyebrows:.

tfarney
17-07-2008, 13:22
I'll add my vote to speakers and furniture-moving :)!

Seriously, I think speakers are 90% of the equation, and if I were looking to upgrade my sound, that's where I would start. Even if I loved my current speakers, I'd consider a second set from a completely different design point of view before I would spend the same money on upgrading already excellent electronics.

On the furniture -- well, the fellow who got an upgrade when his wife moved the chairs got quite a lucky break, but I'm convinced that a lot of very expensive sound systems are wasted in bad room acoustics. Analysis and proper room treatment would probably gain you a lot more sound improvement that a few thousand in components.

Tim

Steve Toy
17-07-2008, 14:31
you have to go and listen to some different systems, speakers make the most difference, try and find a pair of speakers you like and then build a system around them,


I disagree but I can see how dealers (not necessarily yourself) could derive more sales of boxes after the speakers were purchased :eyebrows:.

Speakers are the very last component in the audio chain and they can only do what they are told. They may make the biggest difference in the sound you get in your room but the least difference in how much music you'll actually hear.

Especially if you are going down the valve route I'd begin with the amp. Once you've found one that pleases you in terms of how it portrays the music you can then find a speaker that it can drive to your satisfaction. Your favourite speaker with that as your starting point may be a complete bitch of a load for what would otherwise be your choice of amp.

I used to believe in source first as this is where the music begins its journey within your hi-fi system. Certainly with turntables there really is no substitute for good solid engineering and that is not usually cheap, so with a sytem based on playing vinyl a decent turntable should be both where you start and where you spend the most money.

With digital sources it isn't so clear cut in favour of the source-first principle. Whilst spending money on decent digital playback equipment does pay dividends in terms of how much music you'll actually hear emerging from your speakers, I think the balance in this instance is split more evenly between (digital) source, amp and speakers.

Ultimately, what will make or break your system though will be how well you set it up in your room. Ancilliaries like cabling and isolation/support make a big difference to the end result. Above all, aesthetics MUST always come second to sonics...

purite audio
17-07-2008, 14:38
I can't agree I believe you have to find a pair of speakers you really like and that like your room, and I agree with Tim that moving furniture / acoustic 'treatments' can bring a huge benefit, until you have the speakers how can you pssibly know which amp will drive them properly.

Marco
17-07-2008, 15:03
I think there's definitely merit in Keith's approach, but as usual with audio it's far from as simple as that.

I agree that speaker/room interaction is the single biggest sonic consideration when choosing a hi-fi system and that optimising things here gives the greatest rewards.

However as far as building a hi-fi system is concerned, amps and speakers should be chosen TOGETHER. A synergistic 'marriage' between the two sonically and electrically is vitally important if a system is to produce believable and enjoyable music, and so one cannot realistically be purchased before another. This is one of the reasons, for example, why active speakers can work so well.

Of course, as Steve says, there's bugger all point buying the best amp and speakers if they (and the whole system) are not set up optimally - and I mean optimally.

Too many people attempt to blend hi-end systems into a domestic environment (shoving speakers and equipment into corners of the room, coiling up cables, plonking gear on sideboards, etc, to keep it all 'out of the way' because of 'wifey's' demands) at the expense of performance and as such it's impossible to get even a half decent sound because the system is hobbled from the word go.

What's the most important aspect of a hi-fi system then? Set-up, SET-UP, SET-UP.

Otherwise buy a plastic boom-box from Tescos and be done with it!

There's simply no point in buying the best speakers (or the best anything) if the set-up is compromised.

Marco.

purite audio
17-07-2008, 15:49
If you mean 'setting up ' your turntable correctly , cart arm everything level, supported securely then I absolutely agree , speakers placed for the optimal sound , given real world constraints , doors fireplaces windows etc again I agree, but aren't hi-fi racks no more than FOO?

Marco
17-07-2008, 16:00
In a word, 'no'. But I'm not turning this into 'stand wars' ;)

The fact is not enough people pay proper attention to set-up with hi-fi systems - they concentrate too much on spending money on boxes and speakers and ignore almost everything else.

The rest of what you say is of course correct.

Marco.

purite audio
17-07-2008, 16:08
Marco not my intention at all to start a 'stand war' but the prices of some hi-fi racks, just ridiculous imho, personally I would rather have an attractive solid wood table, I am sure stands for smaller speakers can make a difference. Regards Keith.

Marco
17-07-2008, 16:18
Yep, Keith, I agree. But - there are racks and there are racks. Most 'audiophile' stuff is just glorified furniture with a stupid price tag.

However, try something properly designed for hi-fi purposes, which actually addresses issues such as resonance and vibration, energy storage/transferral, and its sonic impact on components, (for example QS Ref or Mana) and it's a whole different ball game.

But that's a discussion for another thread! If you're interested I'll gladly oblige ;)

Marco.

Togil
17-07-2008, 19:20
However as far as building a hi-fi system is concerned, amps and speakers should be chosen TOGETHER.
Marco.

How's that going to work in practice ? unless the dealer sells the ideal combination.
For instance I only know of TWO dealers who sell Quad ESLs with a reasonable choice of amplifiers. NONE of them sell the amp which I suspect is the best for the Quads under £ 15,000. I want the Quads to sound good , not a new speaker which might sound good with one of the amplifiers I happen to try at any given moment.

jandl100
17-07-2008, 19:39
Yup, as Gary knows, I've owned the ProAc Future Point 5 speakers that he has and loves. Superb speakers in many ways, and if you like the way they image (and Gary does) you'd be plain bonkers to part with them, imho.

For my part, I found them to perform best when driven by valves. I suspect Gary would wet himself ;) if he heard the ProAcs with my OTL valve amps - simply stunningly gorgeous sound.

I strongly recommend that Gary investigate valve amps with those speakers!

Marco
17-07-2008, 20:36
How's that going to work in practice ? unless the dealer sells the ideal combination.
For instance I only know of TWO dealers who sell Quad ESLs with a reasonable choice of amplifiers. NONE of them sell the amp which I suspect is the best for the Quads under £ 15,000. I want the Quads to sound good , not a new speaker which might sound good with one of the amplifiers I happen to try at any given moment.

Hi Hans,

I didn't say it was easy, but if you're serious about having a superb system that's really how it needs to be done!

Get in the car, bus, train, tube, or walk (!) to various dealers who stock what you're looking for and do some auditioning. Or phone them up and ask them to send you stuff to try at home for an agreed period (you will probably have to pay in advance with a credit card and then have it refunded later if necessary).

Or have the confidence to do it all on-line though Ebay or whatever. Basically do whatever it takes - where there's a will there's a way! :)

I didn't arrive at using the system I've got just now by walking into one dealer's shop and everything being laid on a plate. Your hi-fi destiny and long-term musical satisfaction are ultimately in your own hands...

Marco.

tfarney
17-07-2008, 21:24
OK, you guys are really confusing me. While I understand you sometimes have to make a few broad-based decisions before you begin -- want electrostatics? SET is probably not a good choice. Want SET? Low efficiency speakers are not going to work. I get that much. But if you understand and admit that the speakers make the biggest difference in the sound, how do you choose your amp or your source first? You choose it based on what? Listening to it through what?

Different subject, but I am, right now, listening to tubes (excuse me, valves) in my own home for the first time. Just through headphones at the moment, but I'll get around to some speakers soon enough. It sounds good. Very good. I'm still listening for midrange magic. Perhaps I won't hear that until I switch back, and I hear it missing. But it certainly sounds really good. It's a tiny little Glow Audio Amp One I have on loan. Single-ended, pentode. 5 watts per into speakers, 500 milliwatts per from the headphone jack. Cute as hell. The only caveat is it comes with a built-in USB DAC, and that DAC is just awful. But once I bi-passed it, it was all good.

OK, maybe I'm contradicting myself. This amp could send me off looking for speakers to match it, but that's the big picture stuff I was talking about up top. You still confuse me.

Tim

Marco
17-07-2008, 21:39
But if you understand and admit that the speakers make the biggest difference in the sound, how do you choose your amp or your source first?

Tim,

You don't - you choose them together using whatever source you wish, preferably one you intend to use as part of the system. I thought (at least I) was quite clear.

Marco.

tfarney
17-07-2008, 22:03
Tim,

You don't - you choose them together using whatever source you wish, preferably one you intend to use as part of the system. I thought (at least I) was quite clear.

Marco.

That makes perfect sense, Marco. Don't mind me, I confuse rather easily.

Tim

lurcher
17-07-2008, 23:56
FWIW, this is my take on this. Yes, the speakers make the biggest difference, so you would assume that the most important thing to choose is the speakers. But that only works, if there is only the one correct sound, thats where (IMHO) "the closest approach to the original sound" falls down. I think you could audition twenty different speakers, and maybe 15 of them will do something for you, they all sounds very different, but after five minutes, you get used to the speaker, and it works fine, they communicate music, and you can enjoy what it is they do.

Amplifiers are harder, they don't sound very different, almost the same, some would say exactly the same if they arn't broken, but I believe in a way I don't yet understand, the listener will find that when presented with another twenty amplifies, three quarter of them will make a sound that they will never get to like. Even though the difference is much smaller, somehow its a difference that either works or doesn't. Unlike the speakers its not optional.

My personal hypothesis about amplifiers is they can confuse the mind, the closest analogy I can find is the idea of the uncanny valley in computer graphics. One they are past a point towards perfection, the mind starts to find it more and more disturbing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_Valley

I know that when I listen to some amplifiers, I can feel my mind trying to understand what its hearing, and its not a relaxing experence, and I think thats what leads to the feeling of fatigue.

StanleyB
18-07-2008, 02:18
Amplifiers are harder, they don't sound very different, almost the same, some would say exactly the same if they arn't broken
I couldn't disagree more.

Steve Toy
18-07-2008, 03:43
Stan,

I think that was the point Nick was trying to make. There are very subtle ways in which an amp can screw up the sound but these slight shortcomings are enough to make the difference betwen listening to music for hours on end or walking away with a brainache after a few minutes.

Thus the differences made by different amplifiers are not easily noticed by people listening to the sound they make compared to listening to different speakers. The problems often begin when people attempt to listen through them to the music they are supposed to reproduce. If an amp (and source fronting it) can allow the musical message through intact, the ear can more easily forgive the far less subtle sonic imperfections, colorations etc. of a given loudspeaker.

So, you walk into a dealer's dem room and you hear music you like blow you away through a system that is somewhat beyond the reach of your budget. The main components (source, amps and speakers) are each roughly the same price as each other. You can afford but one of the the main components in the system with the remainder of your budget forcing you to look elsewhere to complete the chain.

Which of the three main components do you keep of this killer system out of the source, the amp or the speakers before making do with something inferior to make up the rest?

For the purpose of listening to music through the system it would not be the speakers that I'd keep. It would more likely be either the amp or the source component.

To illustrate this point, I remember the first time I heard PMC FB1s with a Naim system. Initially I was very impressed with the sound this system made. The only thing new in this system was the speakers as I was already very familiar with the electronics. As I began to listem more intently to how the musical message unfolded I began to notice that despite the lovely even-handed tonal balance and the deep, tight bass, the musical message that I knew from previous experiences with this particular system was intact right up to the point that itarrived at the speakers was somehow blurrred in the midrange in particular. It also occured to me that such blurring would be very forgiving of inferior source components in that it simply wouldn't really show up differences at source; they would all sound equally ill-defined!

OK, this was a speaker screwing things up at the end which on one level may appear to undermine my argument, but it made clear in my mind the distinction between a pleasing sound and enjoyable, involving music. If you screw up the musical message at source or with your amp you'll never retrieve it with the speakers no matter how much money you throw at them.

I also think setup is more important than speaker/room interaction in most cases. Ok, if the room is really shit then you've got to fix it somehow but I strongly believe a poor sound getting in the way of the musical message that may often be blamed upon room acoustics can, in most cases, be rectified by paying attention to setup - i.e: stands/isolation, mains and cabling.

This done, then and only then should you look at fixing the room.

tfarney
18-07-2008, 04:24
Stan,

I think that was the point Nick was trying to make. There are very subtle ways in which an amp can screw up the sound but these slight shortcomings are enough to make the difference betwen listening to music for hours on end or walking away with a brainache after a few minutes.

Thus the differences made by different amplifiers are not easily noticed by people listening to the sound they make compared to listening to different speakers. The problems often begin when people attempt to listen through them to the music they are supposed to reproduce. If an amp (and source fronting it) can allow the musical message through intact, the ear can more easily forgive the far less subtle sonic imperfections of a given loudspeaker.

So, you walk into a dealer's dem room and you hear music you like blow you away through a system that is somewhat beyond the reach of your budget. The main components (source, amps and speakers) are each roughly the same price as each other. You can afford but one of the the main components in the system with the remainder of your budget forcing you to look elsewhere to complete the chain.

Which of the three main components do you keep of this killer system out of the source, the amp or the speakers before making do with something inferior to make up the rest?

For the purpose of listening to music through the system it would not be the speakers that I'd keep. It would more likely be either the amp or the source component.

I also think setup is more important than speaker/room interaction in most cases. Ok, if the room is really shit then you've got to fix it somehow but I strongly believe that a poor sound getting in the way of the musical message that may often be blamed upon room acoustics can, in most cases, be rectified by paying attention to setup - i.e: stands/isolation, mains and cabling.

This done, then and only then should you look at fixing the room.

I would disagree. The room is shite far more often than any audiophile ever suspects. I would look to fixing the room before I replaced the speakers, long before I replaced the amp. I think there is a world full of people out there with tens of thousands of dollars (pounds) worth of equipment, pumping sound into rooms that are summarily destroying their investment. I have, so many times, listened to a few thousand dollars worth of well-compensated studio equipment that blew the doors off of a few tens of thousand of dollars worth of un-compensated audiophile gear so many times that I really can't come to any other conclusions.

Tim

jandl100
18-07-2008, 06:01
Just in case Gary misses my On Topic post amid this avalanche of fascinating but somewhat Off Topic posting, I'll repeat it ...... :)


Yup, as Gary knows, I've owned the ProAc Future Point 5 speakers that he has and loves. Superb speakers in many ways, and if you like the way they image (and Gary does) you'd be plain bonkers to part with them, imho.

For my part, I found them to perform best when driven by valves. I suspect Gary would wet himself ;) if he heard the ProAcs with my OTL valve amps - simply stunningly gorgeous sound.

I strongly recommend that Gary investigate valve amps with those speakers!

Yeah, OK, the postings here aren't really Off Topic! ;)

Marco
18-07-2008, 06:55
You're quite right, Jerry. This thread is starting to drift somewhat so let's reign it in and get back to Gary's initial enquiry, although I think some very interesting points have been made about system set-up priorities which should continue to be discussed and I think can happily run alongside Gary's Naim query. I don't wish to stifle this part of the discussion.

Gary, what I would ask you first of all is why you feel the need to change the system you've got at the moment? Is there something you don't entirely like about the Naim sound, you just fancy a change, or are you simply intrigued by what valves could bring to the party?

Personally, if you're happy with what you've got I'd leave as is, enjoy your music, and resist scratching the itch to change because you could all to easily go down the wrong road and enter a never ending spiral of disappointment chasing a sound that you may never find. Believe me; it's all too easy to find yourself in that unfortunate position!

However if you're determined to try the valve thing, here's what I'll do. I'm coming up to Glasgow to see my parents on 7th August. If you're free on that evening (Thursday) or on the Saturday evening (9th) then I will bring the Yaqin and Croft preamp over to Law to let you have a listen and compare it to your Naim gear. If you like it then it's not too difficult to go down that particular road should you wish and I can advise on the best way to do it.

At least then you'll have some practical experience of valves in your own system and be in position to make an informed choice rather than making a blind decision based on forum advice, which as good as it is here is no substitute for using your own ears as the arbiter. While I'm there I'll have a look if there's anything we can tweak with your existing set-up. I have lots of experience of setting up Naim systems so I'm sure I could pull a few tricks and eke out a bit more performance from what you've got ;)

Anyway, if you're interested let me know and we'll do the necessary. You'll need to borrow some DIN to phono leads from Alan to use between your CDX and the Croft, if you don't already have some.

Marco.

lurcher
18-07-2008, 07:06
I couldn't disagree more.

It was an attempt at a sideways reference to the folk you find all over the internet who insist that "all competent amplifiers will sound the same". I am sure you have met them. They often insist DACs all sound the same as well.

Marco
18-07-2008, 07:08
Indeed! And they are deeply misguided. I just laugh.

Marco.

Mike
18-07-2008, 16:55
They often insist DACs all sound the same as well.

Eek!... I don't think I've met one of those. I'm glad to say!

Marco
18-07-2008, 16:58
I think I smelled one in the supermarket today... ;)

Marco.

gary
18-07-2008, 17:00
Hi Marco
That would be brilliant if you have time to do that either night, I am very interested to hear what valves sound like in comparison before I go just spending more money on naim upgrades

Marco
18-07-2008, 17:01
Ok, PM me your addy, including a phone number, and we'll sort it :)

Marco.

gary
18-07-2008, 17:09
Hi Jerry
I have read your post with interest I am very curious now as to what valves bring to the sonic table so to speak

gary
18-07-2008, 17:50
Hi Marco
In answer to your other question I do really like the overall sound of the system I am using it could possibly use a little more impact with the bass. I am in the fortunate position to have a brother who is also into hifi with guess what a naim system and it gets better we both use the same speakers, Thats where I originally heard them and why I bought when they came up second hand. However he is a few more upgrades down the line from me cds3/highcap 202/250.2 so I know where the naim upgrade route is going to take me if I decide to go down that road I am just keeping my options open and trying to avoid blindly following a set path if that is not the best way to go

Gary

jandl100
18-07-2008, 20:46
Hi Jerry
I have read your post with interest I am very curious now as to what valves bring to the sonic table so to speak

Well, imo ....
more palpability, more presence, more musical pizzazz - the music just sounds more alive and believable.

Go back to solid state and the music suddenly sounds flat and 2 dimensional.

You owe it to yourself to at least try those ProAcs with a good valve amp. :)

If you want to keep it 'mainstream' valve, I've heard excellent recent reports of a PrimaLuna amp for £1k or so.

StanleyB
18-07-2008, 23:04
Well, imo ....
more palpability, more presence, more musical pizzazz - the music just sounds more alive and believable.

Go back to solid state and the music suddenly sounds flat and 2 dimensional.


That's too big a net size to catch the type of fish you are thinking of. Not so long ago I had a customer drag his £4K Croft valve amp to my place in order to show me on those NS1000M I nicked off you how better the Croft was compared to that Old Skool Japanese V-FET Mitsu you saw at my place. I didn't keep that Mitsu for several decades just for the fun of it, and the Croft was soon made to look like a Chinese wanabe.
I am not saying that the Croft was no good, but valve amps tend to be sensitive to a lot of factors within their design, and those of the speakers they are connected to. My own take on that is that speaker crossover designs can interact with the audio output transformers on a valve amp and throw the music presentation right out.
The only valves I ever liked in the output stage are the MOV KT88. After a bit of additional herbal intake those can induce 4D performance, never mind 3D.

gary
19-07-2008, 08:49
The only valves I ever liked in the output stage are the MOV KT88. After a bit of additional herbal intake those can induce 4D performance, never mind 3D.

LOL after aditional herbal intake didn't know that was HiFi :lol:

Marco
19-07-2008, 08:59
After a bit of additional herbal intake those can induce 4D performance, never mind 3D.

Hahahahahahahahaha... :lol: What are you like, meesta Ganja? :peace:

Any idea which Croft it was, btw?

I've never heard your Mitsu, so can't comment, but my heavily modified Charisma-X creams any SS (preamp) I've ever heard or used, as does the modified Yaqin in the power amp department.

Much of course depends on the speakers used in these types of tests as the relationship between a valve power amp and speakers requires to be optimised on a number of levels. Certainly the Yams are efficient enough but knowing the traditional sonic signature of both I'm not sure whether the Croft and the Yams were the ideal marriage in that sense. I’m thinking tonally, in particular.

Did you try some different speakers with both amps or was it just with the NS1000s?

Marco.

jandl100
19-07-2008, 09:49
To be fair, Stan - those Yammies you stole from me for such a ridiculous price ;) are notoriously hard to find a good amp for.

Gary's ProAcs are much easier to handle IME, and work very well with valves indeed!

Mike Reed
19-07-2008, 16:09
The only valves I ever liked in the output stage are the MOV KT88. After a bit of additional herbal intake those can induce 4D performance, never mind 3D.

Surely the original intake should have been enough ! With additional intake a bloody transistor radio sounds like a concert !

Those were the days, my friend, when...........(Whoops ! Forgotten the young girlie who sang that)

mistygreenandblue
20-07-2008, 00:06
what does a naim lover do to upgrade appart from the usual spend megabucks on naim stuff
When I first viewed your post over at the Naim forum, slightly different angle to this one mind you,, my response (had I done so) would have been along the lines of asking your brother to pack up all his Naim gear and bring it to your (larger) listening room so you could mix and match and work out what was pushing the right buttons for you in his 'higher end' set up....

One question I would ask of you would be of your listening tastes, as to what makes up the majority of your musical tastes....If the answer were to be hard rock / heavy metal, then forget the valve amp route....An awful lot of my listening consists of the above, and nothing works with that stuff like Naim gear IMO....so much so, that I have to have different systems to cater to my differing musical tastes...If you have an unlimited budget, and the space with which to house such a system, then go speak to Kevin Scott at Definitive Audio, see if he has any Air Partner speakers left for sale, then spend some more time (and money) playing with matching valve amps and whatever front end's you fancy....but that involves money, lots of it...

Classical, Jazz, folk all sound amazing through a lot of valve systems, but as yet I've not heard one (for sensible money, although I've also yet to switch on my A30, so maybe...) have the edge, the bite, the drive and the attack that a Naim system brings to the sonic party with hard rock music...

I used to have a Voyd reference, Audio Innovations 1000pre, Second Audio monoblocks, Snell speaker system, in some ways it was the best sounding gear I've ever owned, but it just never gelled with the harder stuff...far too polite and rounded off...I've since used the Snell's with Naim gear, and they reproduced the uncouth racket fed to them a treat, so it wasn't them turning their nose up at Lemmy and co.. So, unless you have many many greenbacks, or your taste in music doesn't include large amounts of HR, just stick with the Naim stuff and stay away from forums ;)

As with all such opinions you see on forums, the above should have a 'I.M...' attached to the front of it....plus since Marco has kindly offered, just have a listen...In fact hearing as much stuff as possible is the only real failsafe plan, since it's your ears that will have to live with the eventual system...Naim or otherwise...

Steve Toy
20-07-2008, 04:12
If the answer were to be hard rock / heavy metal, then forget the valve amp route....


Oh dear, more clichés about valve amps being for the pipe and slipper chin-stroking types.

AC/DC never sounded more convincing than when I played it a couple of days ago through my [cough] valve amp. A decent valve amp does bass and dynamics and basically reproduces all music faithfully without pigeon-holing or caricaturing it.

Marco
20-07-2008, 07:35
LOL. That's hilarious. Misty, no offence, but you obviously haven't heard a good valve amp!

I'll bring round some Gov't Mule, Jane's Addiction, Pearl Jam, Muse, Queens of The Stone Age, Reef, Rammstein, Wolfmother, and a whole load of heavy shit, and I guarantee it'll frighten the f*ck out you through the Croft/Yaqin... :fingers:

Warn you neighbours now! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Togil
20-07-2008, 08:50
Also the most demanding music in terms of dynamic range and bass is orchestral music which is recorded without limiting ( very rare ) so if that sounds good it will also be good for rock.

gary
20-07-2008, 09:08
Hilarious what is it that makes some people assume that all valve amps sound the same, Do all solid state amps sound the same LOL. over on the nain forum i asked a similar question and what I got was a bloody advert for naim now I love my naim kit and the response I got over on that forum reminded me why I bought it in the first place but I am not stupid enough to think that everything else isn't as good as naim what I know is that I do not particularly have the experience of the guys on this and other forums in putting together a balanced system from different manufacturers and it never hurts to ask questions of your peers (Thanks Guys). My musical taste is varied though I am not a big metal or heavy rock fan but surely a good system should be capable of playing anything.
On top of that my brother was at my house last night with his 202/250/hi and the 202 pre amp made the biggest difference the 250 power amp was to revealing in my system at present making things a little bright through cdx the high cap barely made a difference at all so 90% of advice on naim forum to buy hicap was rubbish for me at this stage as the rest of my system isn't capable of really showing difference yet. Now I am not saying naim is not a good product it is very very good it is also very expensive compared to a lot of other brands I am going to listen with my ears not my wallet

Regards Gary

Marco
20-07-2008, 09:35
That a very refreshing attitude, Gary, and bodes well for your hi-fi happiness in the future.

I wouldn't be too harsh on Misty, as I'm sure he's only commenting from experience on what he's heard so far, but as you say all valve amps are not the same - in fact there is far more variations in presentation with valve gear than there is with solid-state stuff.

Hans makes a good point, too, the demands on a system when playing classical music at full tilt are immense, and if it can successfully handle that then rock and any other genres of music should be a breeze, although subtlety is also needed as well as sheer 'grunt' if the nuances in gentler music are to be faithfully reproduced to create believable 'real' music.

I can tell you that coming from a Naim background, and running a CDS2/XPS2/52/Supercap/135s happily for 5 years that my current valve amplification combo does everything my Naim system did in terms of PRAT, etc, and a whole load more in terms of tonal colour, dynamic range, air and space around voices and instruments and all manner of other elements which aid musical communication and increase one's enjoyment of music.

The simple fact is if it wasn't better than what I had before I wouldn't be using it :)

Marco.

gary
20-07-2008, 09:45
Marco

Excuse the newbie question "PRAT" I'm guessing her Power Realism Acoustics Timing ?

Gary

Mike
20-07-2008, 09:47
Pace Rhythm and Timing.

gary
20-07-2008, 10:01
Thanks Mike

mistygreenandblue
20-07-2008, 17:29
Oh dear, more clichés about valve amps being for the pipe and slipper chin-stroking types.

AC/DC never sounded more convincing than when I played it a couple of days ago through my [cough] valve amp. A decent valve amp does bass and dynamics and basically reproduces all music faithfully without pigeon-holing or caricaturing it.

Go read my post again Steven...I never said valve amps cannot do dynamics, or indeed reproduce decent bass (border patrol etc) what I said was the ones I've heard at sensible money take away the 'bite' and 'edge' that I want from hard rock and metal...

mistygreenandblue
20-07-2008, 17:40
LOL. That's hilarious. Misty, no offence, but you obviously haven't heard a good valve amp!

I'll bring round some Gov't Mule, Jane's Addiction, Pearl Jam, Muse, Queens of The Stone Age, Reef, Rammstein, Wolfmother, and a whole load of heavy shit, and I guarantee it'll frighten the f*ck out you through the Croft/Yaqin... :fingers:

Warn you neighbours now! :eyebrows:

Marco.
Well I guess that depends on your thought process over the Audio Innovations 1000/2nd Audio's....or some of Kevin Scott's demo stuff back in the day Marco...

and in return to your kind offer shall I bring around one of my flying V's, cobble up a head amp, play it back through your power amp and speakers and watch your facial expression change a tad? :)

I'll repeat from before, IMO the only valve stuff I've heard reproduce that edge and bite I want from hard rock / heavy metal was not in the normal price banding, and it was through a huge (by UK standards) pair of horn speakers....Remove the pricing structure and the size limitations and it obviously can be done...but back in the real world....

mistygreenandblue
20-07-2008, 17:44
Hilarious what is it that makes some people assume that all valve amps sound the same, Do all solid state amps sound the same LOL. Gary

If the comment above is referenced towards me, then go back and re-read my original post....the part about Kevin Scott should provide enough clues...

Togil
20-07-2008, 17:49
....Remove the pricing structure and the size limitations and it obviously can be done...but back in the real world....

Wilson speakers + Jadis JA 200 comes to mind

mistygreenandblue
20-07-2008, 18:04
That a very refreshing attitude, Gary, and bodes well for your hi-fi happiness in the future.

I wouldn't be too harsh on Misty, as I'm sure he's only commenting from experience on what he's heard so far, but as you say all valve amps are not the same - in fact there is far more variations in presentation with valve gear than there is with solid-state stuff.

Marco.
Well you are absolutely correct Marco, I am commenting only on what I've heard so far, even to the point where I cannot involve a valve amp that I own, but as yet haven't fired up....What is interesting is the desire of others to place words into my mouth....I cannot recall ever saying all valve amps sound alike....just the ones I deem to be sensible money don't reproduce the bite or edge I want from rock music....and that has nothing to do with bass power, or dynamics, or soundstaging or whatever....

mistygreenandblue
20-07-2008, 18:18
the high cap barely made a difference at all so 90% of advice on naim forum to buy hicap was rubbish for me at this stage as the rest of my system isn't capable of really showing difference yet.

Regards Gary
Ok, well I've bounced over to the Naim forum to have a read of your latest postings - mainly to try and get some further info on the above point....are you saying that the hicap barely made any difference on your 102 pre amp? - running into your 180 power amp....Is this what you are saying?

gary
20-07-2008, 18:57
mistygreenandblue

Thats what we found we first tryed HiCap on my system not any real noticable difference then we tryed changing 180 for 250.2 and highcap and this was better then we changed preamp to 202/highcap with my 180 phenominal difference we then added 250 and all of us agreed it was too revealing and made the system too bright so much so that you wanted to turn it back down we landed up going back to 202/hi/180 and just listened to cds for ages the pre amp was by far the biggest improvement the 202 makes the 102 sound like a toy

PS I have went back and re read your post from earlier and I apologise for putting words in your mouth as was your comment I think I picked you up wrong.(And I had just had comments from my brother to the effect that valve amps did not have the punch of SS ) so I say again sorry my diatribe should have been directed at a different person. Anyway My musical tastes are more easy listening than hard rock so not sure bite is what I am after as such so valves may well be the route I go down I have yet to hear them so I am really looking forward to hearing marcos amps

gary
20-07-2008, 21:11
Out o curiosity Mistygreenandblue what system do you run now and what have you listened too recentely that you can make comparisons too

mistygreenandblue
20-07-2008, 23:59
mistygreenandblue

Thats what we found we first tryed HiCap on my system not any real noticable difference then we tryed changing 180 for 250.2 and highcap and this was better then we changed preamp to 202/highcap with my 180 phenominal difference we then added 250 and all of us agreed it was too revealing and made the system too bright so much so that you wanted to turn it back down we landed up going back to 202/hi/180 and just listened to cds for ages the pre amp was by far the biggest improvement the 202 makes the 102 sound like a toy

PS I have went back and re read your post from earlier and I apologise for putting words in your mouth as was your comment I think I picked you up wrong.(And I had just had comments from my brother to the effect that valve amps did not have the punch of SS ) so I say again sorry my diatribe should have been directed at a different person. Anyway My musical tastes are more easy listening than hard rock so not sure bite is what I am after as such so valves may well be the route I go down I have yet to hear them so I am really looking forward to hearing marcos amps

Hello Gary,

No apologies needed, but thank you all the same. I often wonder if I should refrain from posting on various fora simply because I seem to lack the ability of making clear in my postings what is in my head...to me it seems to read clearly, but obviously not so to others, and when it ends up like that, then it causes more problems than it's worth...

Interesting comment re the 102 v the 202, I'm pondering letting Avondale turbo charge either a 32.5 or a 102 I have, various folks who have either heard, or indeed own such modded pre's say the 102 can be a 52 beater in such a form....I've no actual first hand knowledge, so can only go on the various positive feedback from those who have...Did the 202 make the changes to your system that you wanted, or was it *just* a step in the right direction?

I've always found that adding a hicap makes an improvement (that's using 32.5's / 42.5's and the 102) mind you I have awful mains (a small industrial unit nearby) big difference between working hours, and down time, so maybe p/s's would make a bigger difference with my poor supply, or maybe that's neither here nor there? :confused:

Since the early 80's I've bounced back and forth with Naim gear, but I still haven't found anything (within my budget) that will do it all for me, so I've arrived at my present day situation of the two systems...which is still a work in progress...

To be honest, if I wasn't such a metalhead at times, then the Audio Innovations gear would have ticked most of the boxes....indeed one of their small integrated amps ( series 300 mk1) was a little gem...suffered in the bass region when pushed, but was so full of life...I still have that amp, needs a service, cause a few parts have burnt out, but I'll never get rid of it...

I hope you do find the answer to your questions with Marco's amps, for me sadly it seems to be either a pools win or twin systems...

mistygreenandblue
21-07-2008, 00:40
Out o curiosity Mistygreenandblue what system do you run now and what have you listened too recentely that you can make comparisons too

Hello Gary, I'll pm you the details....still a tad wary of posting details out on a public fora...old habits die hard...

Steve Toy
21-07-2008, 12:16
Go read my post again Steven...I never said valve amps cannot do dynamics, or indeed reproduce decent bass (border patrol etc) what I said was the ones I've heard at sensible money take away the 'bite' and 'edge' that I want from hard rock and metal...

I'm a bit late I know. I've been rather busy this weekend :)

In addition to dynamics I should have pointed out that a good valve amp can do the requisite leading edge attack/transient response to really satisfy with rock programme.

I come from a very flat earth background having familiarised myself hands-on with the entire Olive Naim range a few years back. In my own system I've owned a Naim CD5 (with and without a Flatcap) and a CDX both into quite a few Densen boxes for amplification including the B-330 power amp.

www.densen.dk (http://www.densen.dk)

PR&T is very much a pre-requisite for any system of mine and going to valves for me was about building on existing virtues rather than a sea change from raw edge excitement to pipe 'n slippers. I love the Naim sound but these days nothing below a CDS 555/NAC 552/NAP 500 would do it for me as everything below that level sounds a little too rounded-off for my tastes.

Either the TD/AOS amp of mine is exceptional value for money or Anthony is a genius. Or both. It has already been described as being "like a very good transistor amp."

mistygreenandblue
14-08-2008, 00:13
I'm a bit late I know. I've been rather busy this weekend :)

In addition to dynamics I should have pointed out that a good valve amp can do the requisite leading edge attack/transient response to really satisfy with rock programme.

I come from a very flat earth background having familiarised myself hands-on with the entire Olive Naim range a few years back. In my own system I've owned a Naim CD5 (with and without a Flatcap) and a CDX both into quite a few Densen boxes for amplification including the B-330 power amp.

www.densen.dk (http://www.densen.dk)

PR&T is very much a pre-requisite for any system of mine and going to valves for me was about building on existing virtues rather than a sea change from raw edge excitement to pipe 'n slippers. I love the Naim sound but these days nothing below a CDS 555/NAC 552/NAP 500 would do it for me as everything below that level sounds a little too rounded-off for my tastes.

Either the TD/AOS amp of mine is exceptional value for money or Anthony is a genius. Or both. It has already been described as being "like a very good transistor amp."
Hi Steven,

Even later reply for me. Forum break time n' all....

"rounded-off" is a great description for how I feel about valve amps (the ones that have 'my kind of' price tags anyway...) that I've either owned or heard to date...Kevin's were a whole different ball game however...I'm hoping the A30 bucks that trend...

I must add to this conversation that I don't feel the term 'pipe and slippers' is what I feel about the valve amps I have commented on in this thread, none of them have ever caused me to drift off into the land of nod, but that 'bite' has always been missing for me when playback involves metal / heavy rock...

Anyway, these days while DIY hell continues my listening is done via a £30 portable...Hey ho...