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kininigin
13-10-2010, 14:36
At the moment i have a Tacima CS929 6 way block which i want to use with my pc and associated items and need another mains block for the hi-fi.

It has to have a minimum of 6 sockets with a lead 1.5m long for around £50

any ideas.

Marco
13-10-2010, 14:49
Hi Darren,

That a no-brainer! Buy one of these excellent mains distribution blocks from Olsen:

http://www.olson.co.uk/switched_13a.htm

You should (just about) get a 6-way one for around £50. If not, I doubt it'll be a lot more than that, but you can email them for details.

When you contact them, ask if they have an unswitched version of the above, which for audio purposes will perform even better.

Oh and, if you do get one, open it up and disable the red neon light, as it degrades the sound. Other than that, the Olsens are very good quality mains blocks :)

Marco.

Rare Bird
13-10-2010, 15:05
Yep
I bought an Olson for peanuts, gutted it resprayed it black, rewired it, neon in the bin, perfect..Sold the overated crap i had that cost ten times as much :)

kininigin
13-10-2010, 15:24
cheers guys just the thing im looking for.

kininigin
13-10-2010, 15:35
Yep
I bought an Olson for peanuts, gutted it resprayed it black, rewired it, neon in the bin, perfect..Sold the overated crap i had that cost ten times as much :)

When you say re-wired do you mean the mains cable into the block?

chris@panteg
13-10-2010, 16:08
Would Mark Grant sell his mains cable ' off the peg so to speak , as you can buy the Olson without cable and plug.

Rare Bird
13-10-2010, 16:53
I hope he does chris i'm gonna want some! btw i went for a block with captive lead, last thing i wanted was extra contacts on the line.

Marco
13-10-2010, 17:51
Oh, I'm sure Mark will sell his DSP 2.5 off the reel if you ask him nicely ;)

Hi Darren,


When you say re-wired do you mean the mains cable into the block?

Yes, and possibly Andre also meant the internal wiring. However, that can always be done at a later date, if you've only got the £50 to spend just now.

The Olsen will still be plenty good enough, and way better than some of the so-called 'audiophile' bollocks for sale!

Marco.

kininigin
13-10-2010, 19:51
i could spend more but i don't really want to spend more than £50 ish atm as i want to upgrade other parts of my system as well.

Marco
13-10-2010, 19:56
Hi Darren,

I'd just go for the Olsen as is for the moment (you can always tweak things later) and concentrate your remaining funds on the other upgrades you're planning on implementing :)

Marco.

Ammonite Audio
13-10-2010, 20:21
Just don't be tempted by Olson's Sound Fantastic range ( http://www.soundfantastic.co.uk/products.htm ) - they sound anything but fantastic. Utterly dire, in fact. I bought one, and after stripping out the mains filter, ditching the screened cable and rewiring the innards it's great.

Marco
13-10-2010, 20:32
Indeed - hence why I didn't recommend that one ;)

Marco.

Barry
13-10-2010, 20:48
Indeed - hence why I didn't recommend that one ;)

Marco.

I use an industrial-style Olsen 6-way distribution board. The sockets are unswitched and it is fitted with a 10A Schaffner filter unit. I replaced the mains lead feeding it and removed the switch and neon indicator (the latter is a noise source).

I'm very happy with it and don't find the Schaffner filter causes the music to sound 'sat upon', but then I'm not sure if I could hear that if it did occur.

Regards

Rare Bird
13-10-2010, 21:34
This is what i used gutted stripped & refinished in satin crackle black, rubber grommet where the neon was.Ground terminal fitted..Captive lead.

YNWaN
13-10-2010, 22:03
Or you could make your own Hydra cable and not bother with a distribution block at all.

Marco
13-10-2010, 22:23
Hi Mark,

I'd thought of that, but it wouldn't work (due to their construction) if Darren's using Mark Grant mains leads.

Also, some people like the flexibility of being able to switch on and off individual components from a distribution block. Hydras tend to work best with Naim mains leads in a Naim system, and in that application the results are undeniably excellent :)

As an aside, have a look at what I'm selling on Ebay, which the Mark Grants replaced:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160493085228&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:GB:1123

That's from the days of me going, erm, slightly 'over the top' with mains leads! ;)

Marco.

Barry
13-10-2010, 23:33
This is what i used gutted stripped & refinished in satin crackle black, rubber grommet where the neon was.Ground terminal fitted..Captive lead.

Mine is similar, but a pale ochre colour, and has circular MK sockets.

Marco
14-10-2010, 08:20
Most unfiltered Olsen distribution units are good for hi-fi purposes, but I'd recommend the standard range with fitted sockets, shown here (although preferably with the unswitched variety):

http://www.olson.co.uk/switched_13a.htm

...rather than the 'molded on' types you guys are using, simply because the sockets can then be upgraded later with MKs or Crabtrees, which use better quality internal materials.

This is how the Mark Grant mains distribution unit was designed (an empty Olsen box with single unswitched Crabtree sockets used, and a DSP 2.5 power cord fitted as a mains flex). Internally though, everything is star-wired to a common earth point using 6mm cable, and sonically this makes a significant difference:


http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8812/6waymainsblocksingle.jpg (http://img824.imageshack.us/i/6waymainsblocksingle.jpg/)

More info here: http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_59&products_id=193.


That's the ultimate, and what I use (albeit with Furutech 13A sockets and mains plug), but then it costs £200, not £50......

The good thing is though that if you start off with the basic (Standard type) Olsen model with fitted sockets, you can upgrade it in stages to the same spec as Mark Grant's mains block, above - and that's exactly what I'd recommend people to do if they can't afford to go for one of Mark's blocks right away :)

Marco.

Rare Bird
14-10-2010, 13:04
Heres the Grey Olsen block i rebuilt, the red Neon power indicator isnt there anymore now..Sorry about crap pic, i think it was a mobile pickkie..

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/LIVING-SIN/Block.jpg

Marco
14-10-2010, 13:25
Nice work, Andre - looks good!

Just one tip, dude, if it applies (as I'm not sure if you're using your gear plugged in that way or if it was just for the photo), but the socket nearest the mains inlet on any distribution block is the one that offers the best sonic performance (it should have a slightly lower impedance), so this socket should always be used, and with the component nearest the source signal plugged into it :)

Some may scoff, but the order in which equipment is plugged into a mains block makes a small, but noticeable, improvement to the sound. One should always start with the source component (or whatever is powering the source component) and work forwards to the speakers, hence next would be the preamp in socket 2, then the power amp in socket 3, etc. The last socket is likely to be the worst, so whatever component is considered as least important to the system should go in there.

Marco.

Rare Bird
14-10-2010, 13:28
Yes just for pickkies purpose mis plug, plug, mis plug..CD is the first in.

Marco
14-10-2010, 13:29
Ah, I thought so! Still, the info may be of benefit to others :)

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
14-10-2010, 13:50
Just one tip, dude, if it applies (as I'm not sure if you're using your gear plugged in that way or if it was just for the photo), but the socket nearest the mains inlet on any distribution block is the one that offers the best sonic performance (it should have a slightly lower impedance), so this socket should always be used, and with the component nearest the source signal plugged into it :)
Are you sure abut this Marco? :eyebrows: It sounds arse about face to me, the lowest impedance feed would be better served feeding a power amplifier than a CD player from the viewpoint i'm looking at ;)

I understand what you are saying though & that ideally every bit of kit has as low an impedance feed as possible. In all honesty though even the heftiest CD player will only draw about 50W from the mains & they aren't generally fitted with 500VA transformers ;)

Therefore it makes logical sense to put the equipment with the biggest power draw as close to the mains cable feeding the block as possible, not the furthest away :) I'm sure you'll be along to tell me that you have tried it various ways & the way you suggested sounds the best to yourself. I'd still suggest that others experiment to see for themselves as it's backwards from the logical viewpoint :)

Marco
14-10-2010, 14:12
Hi Mark,

I totally agree. Experimenting is definitely the key, and certainly from an electrical perspective, you're 100% correct. Results, however, may indeed vary from system to system.

It's just that 99 times out of 100, when I test the theory, that's not what I hear... It virtually always sounds best when the source component is plugged into the socket on the block nearest the mains inlet, and then preamp, power amp, etc.

Why though, I don't know...

But I've certainly tried it enough times now over the years to form a reasonably conclusive opinion. Perhaps you could try it and report back with your findings? :)

Marco.

Rare Bird
14-10-2010, 14:18
intresting cos i've always done it way Marco sugests!

Reid Malenfant
14-10-2010, 14:31
I had a think about this whilst eating dinner ;) I have a feeling it's down to the type of power amp you are using. Valve amps have a vastly different way of drawing current from the mains due to the Pi filter that's created by the capacitor/inductor/capacitor arrangement. This makes them a lot cleaner & they also tend to draw significant amounts of power even when no music is playing, very similar to a solid state class A amp in fact (but even more clean in nature).

I'd suggest that if someone was using a meaty class B amp that they'd find the opposite scenario the better.

It's down to the equipment & specifically the type & implementation of the power amplifier :) imo

Marco
14-10-2010, 15:03
Hi Mark,


I had a think about this whilst eating dinner I have a feeling it's down to the type of power amp you are using. Valve amps have a vastly different way of drawing current from the mains due to the Pi filter that's created by the capacitor/inductor/capacitor arrangement. This makes them a lot cleaner & they also tend to draw significant amounts of power even when no music is playing, very similar to a solid state class A amp in fact (but even more clean in nature).

I'd suggest that if someone was using a meaty class B amp that they'd find the opposite scenario the better.


Unfortunately no cigar, mate, because the same has applied no matter what amps I've used. The amps I had before my current valve amp were ECS 200W solid-state monoblocks (veritable behemoths, with a 1500VA tranny in each one!), and the results were the same, and before that it was Naim NAP135s, again class A/B solid-state designs, and umpteen other similar solid-state amps before that.

You're forgetting that I've been at this game for nearly 30 years... I started young, though! ;)

This is not something I've just discovered.

As always with these things, however, my advice is to suck it and see, as in hi-fi there are very few absolutes :)

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
14-10-2010, 15:12
Unfortunately no cigar

You're forgetting that I've been at this game for nearly 30 years... I started young, though! ;)
:lolsign: I'll stick to the ciggiies then ;)

Looks like you have been into this game as you call it the same amount of time as myself, i had no idea how long you had been :scratch: Maybe if had had a good poke about over a load of old posts i'd have discovered this for myself :)

Marco
14-10-2010, 15:26
Lol - it's annoying though because what you're saying, in an electrical sense, is absolutely right.

What it does show though is the benefits of subjective assessment and trusting your ears in the final analysis before any supposedly irrefutable 'objective proof' ;)

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
14-10-2010, 15:58
I'd say it was more intriguing than anything else :eyebrows: One thing i'd never do is allow something that on the face of it appears logically deduced to be possibly incorrect & therefore annoy me ;)

One thing a can say though that should be 100% correct is that assuming you are to use this block of sockets there is no doubt in my mind that the best way of wiring it would be to have each socket individually wired (Live, Neutral & Earth) to one set of input posts (L, N, E) rather than the more common three rails that connect them all in line daisy chain style.

There should be no preference as to which socket gets what equipment in that case, but that's another story :lol:

Marco
14-10-2010, 16:05
I'll suggest that to Mark Grant and see what he says :)

TBH, though, my system's sounding so fantastic at the moment that I'd rather buy more music than fiddle around with my mains block :eyebrows:

We'll see how much new vinyl from Diverse and Stamford I plunder at the hi-fi show in Manchester this weekend - yee ha! :guitar:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
14-10-2010, 16:13
I'll suggest that to Mark Grant and see what he says :)

I can imagine - too expensive to do on a production basis as it'd be a lot more labour intensive & obviously more expensive due to more cabling & the large connectors (possibly brass bolts) used to connect all the L, N & E cables together at 3 points near the input ;)

As a DIY project it might be worthwhile though for those who fancy giving it a go :)

Good luck record hunting :cool:

Marco
14-10-2010, 16:34
I can imagine - too expensive to do on a production basis as it'd be a lot more labour intensive & obviously more expensive due to more cabling & the large connectors (possibly brass bolts) used to connect all the L, N & E cables together at 3 points near the input...


Indeed, but knowing Mark (and his love of experimenting), that doesn't mean he wouldn't do it and make it available as a special order at extra cost ;)


As a DIY project it might be worthwhile though for those who fancy giving it a go...


Absolutely!


Good luck record hunting

Cheers, matey - no doubt I'll unearth a few more gems on the ol' plastic frisbees. It always ends up costing me a fortune, though!

Marco.

Ali Tait
14-10-2010, 17:08
It may be that Marco in the past has used mains blocks with star earthing.That may explain his findings.

Marco
14-10-2010, 17:12
My current (Mark Grant) one is star-earthed, too, Ali :)

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
14-10-2010, 17:17
It may be that Marco in the past has used mains blocks with star earthing.That may explain his findings.
Very doubtful indeed, for the simple reason that the only time any current should flow in the earth cable is when there is a fault condition. However, as we can have ground loops & knowing how these effect things i'd say that nothing was impossible :eyebrows:

Logic just has to go out the window at times :doh:

The thing i was talking about earlier would make a kind of star Live & star Neutral & Earth connections which should see all sockets getting low impedance connections :)

Ali Tait
14-10-2010, 17:22
In that case,why then is star earthing in amplifiers so often cited as sounding better?

Ali Tait
14-10-2010, 17:25
And further,why does Marco tell us that the earth spike buried in his garden makes a significant improvement to his system?

Reid Malenfant
14-10-2010, 17:30
In an amp you have loads of circuits that often need a ground potential, some of these circuits generate quite a bit of noise (think zeners as voltage references or regulators) & some a pretty quiet (the ground for the input & feedback loop if ground referenced).

Rather than join these grounds together on a PCB or whatever it's much better to keep them seperate & only join them at one low impedance point. That way the noisy circuits don't inject interference into the quiet ones & you have a better sounding amp ;)

As i say though, the mains is a different kettle of fish as no curents should be flowing in the earth conductors unless there is a fault. We know that there can be & even though it might be micro or ever nano or pico amps we can still get an earth loop & hum :doh:

Reid Malenfant
14-10-2010, 17:35
And further,why does Marco tell us that the earth spike buried in his garden makes a significant improvement to his system?
Good grief man, you'll be asking me for the meaning of life, the universe & everything in a minute :eyebrows:

I'm not 100% sure about this tbh. I don't know if all houses happen to already have 6 - 10ft copper coated rods driven into the earth (i'm not an electrician) or if they are relying on the main earth back at the local substation. If not then it's quite possible that installing your own may well create a better "local" earth & lower background noise on a hifi :scratch:

Marco
14-10-2010, 17:37
And further,why does Marco tell us that the earth spike buried in his garden makes a significant improvement to his system?


Because it (measurably) lowers the impedance on the mains supply to my system, and more importantly, provides a 'cleaner' earth path for the components connected to it by reducing circuit-borne noise?

Mind you, the latter is simply a hypothesis...

I can clearly hear the results, however, when I connect and disconnect the incoming earth wire (from my dedicated earth in the garden) that's connected to the separate CU supplying my system, when the system is playing music... It's something I can do in seconds, and the results are most obvious ;)

Marco.

Ali Tait
14-10-2010, 17:40
Yes,that's the point I was getting at,that it lowers impedance.To go back to my original comment,it may be that star earthing would explain what Marco hears with the mains blocks he's used.

Marco
14-10-2010, 17:43
Hi Mark,


In an amp you have loads of circuits that often need a ground potential, some of these circuits generate quite a bit of noise (think zeners as voltage references or regulators) & some a pretty quiet (the ground for the input & feedback loop if ground referenced).

Rather than join these grounds together on a PCB or whatever it's much better to keep them seperate & only join them at one low impedance point. That way the noisy circuits don't inject interference into the quiet ones & you have a better sounding amp


I like that, and it seems as good a hypothesis as any as to why having a dedicated earth for a hi-fi system, to my ears, unquestionably significantly improves its sonic performance.

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
14-10-2010, 17:46
Hi Mark,

I like that, and it seems as good a hypothesis as any as to why having a dedicated earth for a hi-fi system, to my ears, unquestionably significantly improves its sonic performance.
I think you'll find i made the same comment about your dedicated earth on the previous page in relation to Alis' question ;)

It makes a lot of sense, but then as we have discovered, logic can be refuted :lol:

Marco
14-10-2010, 17:48
Indeed. Logic is sometimes rather overrated :eyebrows:

Marco.

Ali Tait
14-10-2010, 17:57
Well the question as rhetorical,the lowering of impedance and possible lowering of the noise floor was the point I was trying to make! ;)

Barry
14-10-2010, 21:44
Gentlemen

I think we have to be very careful about what earthing systems we are talking about. In the UK there are three that can, and are, used: TN-C, TN-S and TN-CS. They are all different! To understand these various earthing arrrangements see: http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/5.6.3.htm#Top

From my visit to Marco's, I suspect that the provision of his local supply supports the TN-CS system. The addition of an additional earth spike could lower the source impedance. IEE regulations require such TN-CS systems to have an earth loop impedance of < 0.32 Ohm. I do not know of requirement on the the source impedance.

In my location, my mains supply uses a TN-S earthing system. IEE regulations require the earth loop impedance to be < 0.8 Ohm. I have measured my mains supply to have the following: -

Earth loop resistance: 0.2 - 0.3 Ohm

Source impedance: 0.21 - 0.25 Ohm.

Unless your mains supply system supports a TN-CS system, 'beefing up' the earth continuity conductor will only improve the earth leakage path impedance and not the mains supply source impedance. Under normal conditions there will not be any fault conditions demanding current flow to earth, so the latter is largely irrelevant. There will, however, be a slightly reduced source impedance (since the neutral return is in parallel with the earth fault return path).

There is, and this is very important, a slight risk in providing additional earth spikes to TN-CS systems. In the event (albeit unlikely) of a fault in the neutral conductor, ALL the return current current from all those consumers sharing the phase of your mains supply, could travel through the 'earthed' metalwork of your equipment, in its attempt to find its way back to the transformer in the substation. Under this fault condition, all the metalwork of your equipment will be raised to the mains supply voltage of 230 - 240 V!

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! Don't mess around with the earthing arrangements, unless you know what they are and what you are doing! If you are in the slightest doubt, ask your local electrician for advice.

The AoS membership is approaching 3000 - we don't wan't it to go in the other direction due to ill-informed messing about with the mains suppy and earthing provisions!

Regards

Ali Tait
15-10-2010, 07:31
Well said Barry,we've been here before but it bears repeating.

rikardo1979
18-02-2016, 05:37
hi guys.
I am just about to make some power block myself. What you think about the FN2060-12/06 (http://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Schaffner/FN2060-12-06/?qs=Eu63EZxBwKLZefGMzTXAKw%3d%3d) EMI. Any good to fit these in?

http://sigma.octopart.com/21580927/image/Schaffner-FN2060-12-06.jpg