View Full Version : Glenn Croft is building amplifiers again! CroftAcoustics.co.uk
matodono1
07-07-2008, 09:53
Hello All,
I am sure you all (and Marco) will be pleased to know that Glenn Croft has built his first amplifiers for over twelve months. Production is still a few months away, however I can tell you all that I have heard the prototypes and you can all be assured that the "Micro ethos" of nearly twenty years ago is back!
Giant killer performance on a budget is what you can expect very soon! See the pages I have put up at http://www.croftacoustics.co.uk/prototypes.html and http://www.croftacoustics.co.uk for more details.
Glenn will be watching the forum so let us know what you all think!
Best, Matt.
Filterlab
07-07-2008, 12:34
Excellent stuff, superb quality gear that Croft stuff.
Love the old-school, workman-like design. Doesn't have all its tubes on its face like the reproductive organs of a flower. Funny how different "affordable" can be. With the current exchange rate, that would cost me in the neighborhood of $5,600 + shipping. All things are relative, of course, but I'd call that very expensive.
Tim
matodono1
07-07-2008, 15:48
Love the old-school, workman-like design. Doesn't have all its tubes on its face like the reproductive organs of a flower. Funny how different "affordable can be. With the current exchange rate, that would cost me in the neighborhood of $5,600 + shipping. All things are relative, of course, but I'd call that very expensive.
Tim
Hi Tim,
The prototypes are of the second level products within the new range. Let me refer you to the home page of the site www.croftacoustics.co.uk where I detail all five new products to come with prices starting at £700 GBP for the pre and the same amount for the power amp.
Where in the world can you buy hand built amplifiers without PCB's that sound as good as Croft for £700? In hifi circles that is "affordable".
Regards, Matt.
Hi Matt,
You know how pleased I am about Glenn being back 'in the zone', so please use AOS any way you need to promote the new range.
I'll hopefully have a listen to some prototypes when Glenn is off the cricket circuit ;)
Hey, I don't know what all the PFM-ers have against dual mono volume controls - lazy gits! You and I both know how passionately Glenn feels about this aspect of the design. It sounds better and he will always put performance before convenience - end of.
Enjoy your curry tonight, mate, and pass on my regards :)
Marco.
P.S I'll be writing a piece on the mods I've had carried out to my CX shortly. Just mad busy with work ATM.
Matt,
re affordability I noticed the German website still has a pdf pricelist with a Croft amplifier for 60,000 Euros that's nearly £ 48,000 !!
They do say that Croft cannot currently build amplifiers due to "personal problems"
PS Actually the German is "personelle Probleme" ie that could mean problems with the personnel
Hey, I don't know what all the PFM-ers have against dual mono volume controls - lazy gits! You and I both know how passionately Glenn feels about this aspect of the design. It sounds better and he will always put performance before convenience - end of.
Enjoy your curry tonight, mate, and pass on my regards :)
Marco.
P.S I'll be writing a piece on the mods I've had carried out to my CX shortly. Just mad busy with work ATM.
When I owned a Super Micro SMA I fitted finely calibrated, skirted knobs in place of the awful originals and drilled the front panel to take a tiny pin-head red LEDs as markers. It helped with channel matching... a bit.
Down with twin knobs!
If I can find a photo of the old SMA I'll post it.
Steve Toy
08-07-2008, 00:31
No twin knobs please but I'm genuinely interested in a valve pre that will see off my solid state Spectral DMC-15. I tried a Glasshouse TVC passive and whilst it was more organic it was rather shut-in both spatially and dynamically compared to the Spectral. It was also less dynamic to the point of a slight shoutiness even if this was without any real hardness as such.
I'm looking for the dynamics, timing and soundstaging of the Spectral with perhaps more natural sounding vocals. The Spectral is very, very good indeed and is probably worth around £2000 on the s/h market. It was £4700 new back in 2001. The latest version of it is £4800.
Basically 2k is my top-line budget for a pre.
matodono1
08-07-2008, 02:21
Matt,
re affordability I noticed the German website still has a pdf pricelist with a Croft amplifier for 60,000 Euros that's nearly £ 48,000 !!
They do say that Croft cannot currently build amplifiers due to "personal problems"
PS Actually the German is "personelle Probleme" ie that could mean problems with the personnel
Hi Togil,
How do I explain this so that it makes any sense? I don't pretend to know the full history (I haven't really enquired but here is my version after knowing Glenn and Amar for over a decade).
Around eighteen years ago Glenn sort of withdrew from the world. The reasons are best known to Glenn and are personal and private. We are not talking any sort of health issue, just a large dose of disdain and dismay for society and the status quo in which we all live. I feel that way myself (often) as I am sure we all do from time to time.
At that time Glenn was active producing valve amps, attending the occasional show, he was happy running a souped up Porsche Carrera, and had a wide variety of interests but largely would want to keep himself to himself and running a very public amplifier business was not entirely compatible with his needs a that time.
In stepped Amar Biswas who offered to be a voice to the outside world for Croft acoustics and eventually evolved it into Eminent Audio. Amar created a mystique around Glenn and even shielded Glenn in many ways from the outside world in order to further his own ends. Glenn was happy to leave the running of the business to Amar in exchange for an easy life and this became a habit which was difficult to break. Over the years Glenn got a rep for being a recluse and some sort of flawed genius (none of which was true at all).
Glenn is famous around the world for what he does but is simply not interested in the attention he gets. That is all there is to be said of the man. Amar exploited this for years and profitted enormously out of the Croft brand. Granted, Amar worked hard on marketing but ultimately it was Glenn building each of the thousands of amps which exist. This continued until last year when unexpected traumatic events (which I will not detail) caused Glenn to take stock of the last couple of decades.
Glenn simply announced that he wanted to scale down production of amplifiers so that he could spend some time on himself, go on a few holidays, pursue interests which he had sacrificed for most of the previous two decades whilst holed up in a small workshop in a house in Erdington building amplifiers day after day year after year.......
Amar terrified that his magic carpet ride was about to end (which included the manufacture of insanely priced amplification for the German market)refused to have any of it and that led to a breakdown in the relationship between the two directors of EA and now the reformation of Croft Acoustics.
Amar was never anything without Glenn and never will be. A "Parasite" would be a kind word to describe the man. Ownership of EA and it's assets will be decided in the high court early next year and Amar Biswas will play no further part in the future of Croft Acoustics.
As for the price list Pdf listed on the German Input Audio site.........
This is a really funny story and a testament to the delusions of Amar Biswas. I and Glenn were on the computer at my home about ten months ago and came across the same PDF. With utter disbelief I turned to Glenn and asked "Whats a Duad?" Glenn looked at me blankly "A Duad" I said "Yeah a 60,000 Euro amp on this EA price list called a Duad." Glenn took a brief look at the PDF and replied "Fucked if I know, it must be something that, that cunt dreamed up!" we both looked at the other items and cracked up laughing.
Beyond the one Om-Seti that was built and a couple of ten grand absolut1's nothing like that was even conceived by Glenn and there are certainly no prototypes. All a figment of Amar Biswas's imagination.
If you ever see the little man be sure to pass on my regards,
Matt.
matodono1
08-07-2008, 02:46
Hi Matt,
You know how pleased I am about Glenn being back 'in the zone', so please use AOS any way you need to promote the new range.
I'll hopefully have a listen to some prototypes when Glenn is off the cricket circuit ;)
Hey, I don't know what all the PFM-ers have against dual mono volume controls - lazy gits! You and I both know how passionately Glenn feels about this aspect of the design. It sounds better and he will always put performance before convenience - end of.
Enjoy your curry tonight, mate, and pass on my regards :)
Marco.
P.S I'll be writing a piece on the mods I've had carried out to my CX shortly. Just mad busy with work ATM.
Hi Marco,
Thanks, looking forward to hearing more about your upgraded Charisma X I heard that it is a bit special now. My Epoch will be going away at some point to get similar treatment when all the new stuff is developed.
The PFM'ers...... I know. They have been bustin my chops all day. Gotta love them yanks, quite frankly there are more importants things to worry about than dual mono, so there will be no sleep lost there.
Prototypes
I really only had access to them for an hour myself and they are likely to be doing the rounds amongst industry bods for some time to come so can't really make any promises. Glenn is flat out on upgrades and mods at the moment and then its back up north for the Cricket in a week or so.
The curry was nice thanks and it was Glenn's turn to pay so all in all a good night.
Speak soon, Matt.
Rob,
When I owned a Super Micro SMA I fitted finely calibrated, skirted knobs in place of the awful originals and drilled the front panel to take a tiny pin-head red LEDs as markers. It helped with channel matching... a bit.
Interesting. I think that would have been a pretty good solution. Mind you, the quality of knobs and pots have moved on a bit since those days and I'll think you'll find the ones Glenn's likely to be using on his new stuff will be more positive in feel and accurate in use, although certainly not 'fancy' in style.
Down with twin knobs!
LOL. I don't get what all the 'hoo-hah' is about twin knobs. Ok, I do (in a way), but it's not the end of the world once you get used to it, and it definitely gives better stereo, particularly at lower volumes.
We are after all supposed to be 'audiophiles' (I've never been comfortable with that word, though) always striving to go the extra mile for the best sound. Jeez, people will adjust VTA for individual records played on their T/Ts, fiddle with loading and impedance values on phono stages, and all manner of shit to ensure the best reproduction is obtained before listening, so I don't see the big deal in adopting similar logic with preamp volume controls in a design that's all about achieving the absolute best sound quality and highest sound-per-pound value.
And I can honestly tell you, having discussed this issue with Glenn (and I'm sure Matt will back me up here) that there is more chance of the Pope becoming a Protestant than Glenn giving up on dual-mono volume pots. The 'faithful' can bleat all they like! Just see it as the artistic quirk of an old master ;)
If I can find a photo of the old SMA I'll post it.
Please do. I'd like to see it.
Marco.
Steve,
No twin knobs please but I'm genuinely interested in a valve pre that will see off my solid state Spectral DMC-15. I tried a Glasshouse TVC passive and whilst it was more organic it was rather shut-in both spatially and dynamically compared to the Spectral. It was also less dynamic to the point of a slight shoutiness even if this was without any real hardness as such.
I'm looking for the dynamics, timing and soundstaging of the Spectral with perhaps more natural sounding vocals. The Spectral is very, very good indeed and is probably worth around £2000 on the s/h market. It was £4700 new back in 2001. The latest version of it is £4800.
Basically 2k is my top-line budget for a pre.
Did you get my message? Sorry I can't make it today and carry out the various comparisons of kit we had intended doing. Business calls, but if you're free we will definitely do it in a couple of weeks :)
You must get to hear the Croft now it has been modified - it really is quite special. I'm sure Glenn could build you a superb preamp for £2k or less, such as what's represented in his new range, which I'm sure is as good or very close to what I'm using now.
I think good quality transformer-based passive preamps have something to offer, and in many cases are better than active designs, even some very expensive ones, but when you get a top-notch valve pre that ticks all the right boxes, such as the Croft, it's a different ball game entirely.
We've already concluded after much listening that valve power amps (or converted integrateds) are the way to go in terms of reproducing music faithfully with the colour and emotive impact evident in real voices and instruments, therefore it makes sense to adopt the same approach and methodology with preamps. No design is perfect of course - it's all about choosing your compromises - but in my experience well designed valve preamps, musically, get far more right than they do wrong.
Marco.
Hi Matt,
Thanks, looking forward to hearing more about your upgraded Charisma X I heard that it is a bit special now.
Jeez, and how! You and I both know that Glenn isn't a man of many words (at least when he's sober ;)) but he said enough at my place to suggest that he was satisfied with the results. All in all, it's so far the biggest improvement I've had with any upgrades I've done (so cost effective too) and that's saying something considering the shenanigans I get up to on the hi-fi front! :lol:
My Epoch will be going away at some point to get similar treatment when all the new stuff is developed.
Nice one. Trust me, you've got some fun to look forward to, although I have to say that your Epoch sounded bloody good the last time I was down.
The PFM'ers...... I know. They have been bustin my chops all day. Gotta love them yanks, quite frankly there are more importants things to worry about than dual mono, so there will be no sleep lost there.
LOL. I understand the concerns but like I said before it's not a hill of beans considering the lengths some folk go to with tweakery and set-up procedures - and it's all well documented on PFM threads and elsewhere! I agree, I think the Yanks have a very healthy, friendly (less competitive) attitude to hi-fi compared to Brits. Posting on various US audio sites confirms this.
Prototypes
I really only had access to them for an hour myself and they are likely to be doing the rounds amongst industry bods for some time to come so can't really make any promises. Glenn is flat out on upgrades and mods at the moment and then its back up north for the Cricket in a week or so.
No worries. Glenn said he'd keep me in the loop so no doubt I'll hear from him in due course or all of us might meet up for a curry in Brum some point before then :smoking:
The curry was nice thanks and it was Glenn's turn to pay so all in all a good night.
Haha... Was the rice up to his Lordship's standards?
Right, off to do some work for a change! Much later, chaps...
Marco.
Just great to hear Glen is making amps again I will look into the level 2 pre when it comes out
Hi Togil,
If you ever see the little man be sure to pass on my regards,
Matt.
Actually I met him in Munich at the 2007 show.
He sent me a UK price list, where the Duad was £ 39,000
It was an OTL with 16x 6336
matodono1
08-07-2008, 18:14
Actually I met him in Munich at the 2007 show.
He sent me a UK price list, where the Duad was £ 39,000
It was an OTL with 16x 6336
As I say Hans,
The Duad was never more than an imaginary amplifier printed on a price list conceived by a very greedy individual. Amar never even asked Glenn whether or not it was possible to create an OTL with 16 x 6336's.
Besides that Amar knew far better, the best amongst his many amplifiers was a pair of Cypher (or maybe Aparitions) OTL mono-blocs which had two 6336's per channel and that would have been more than sublime enough to satisfy 99% of the audiophiles in the world.
The Duad would have been nothing more than an extravagance. Overhyped overspecified and overpriced by Amar in order to line his own pockets.
regards, Matt.
The Duad would have been nothing more than an extravagance. Overhyped overspecified and overpriced by Amar in order to line his own pockets.
regards, Matt.
One wonders what would have happened if some wealthy German client had placed an order for this non existent 'myth'!!! :scratch:
Amar recommended 3 amplifiers for my Quad ESLs : the Duad, the Omseti and the Mesmeris (also £ 39,000 ?) He said the Mesmeris had just been specially made. To be fair he didn't try to persuade me to order without first coming to visit him in the Midlands ...
Yes, Hans, and when you went to visit him in the Midlands he would have spun you some yarn about none of the amplifiers he mentioned being available or they would have been 'out of stock'. He would have tried to sell you something else - probably some bodged design of his own. One thing's for certain: nothing he'd have sold you at the prices quoted would have been anything to do with Glenn.
My advice to you would be to steer clear if Mr Biswas should ever contact you again.
Marco.
I've just looked again at the thread on PFM and can't believe the misguided and pathetic negative reaction to dual-mono volume controls...
{Shakes head in disbelief}
Buy the wife a bloody midi system for the kitchen to play her music on and stop yer whining! ;)
Marco.
Well... I must admit, I don't particularly like separate volume controls.
However!.... If the performance warranted it, I could put up with it.
But!... If it was THAT much of a problem, at least I have the knowledge to do something about it. It really is NOT that f*cking difficult! :mental:
The thing is Mike they're focussing on the wrong thing. The dual-mono volume controls are only a small part of the overall amplifier design - they are not responsible for the bulk of its performance!
The fact is Glenn's design ethos is (and always has been) about performance over convenience and if concessions are made in that area they are done reluctantly. Dual-mono pots are more accurate and thus offer better performance - end of. The percentage of improvement is irrelevant; it's the fact that they offer an improvement, no matter how small, that counts. This is why you will never see PCBs in a Croft design - hard-wiring is always the name of the game.
For Glenn it's about the cumulative effect of chosen components and how they are implemented, i.e. *everything* matters, even down to the signal conductivity properties of the phono sockets! I know how specific he is about all aspects of design because I've spoken to him at length both on the phone and in person during the modification of my own preamp. I implemented his suggestions and the result is I have a preamp which is far in excess superior to anything I have heard or used previously - yes that good!
If people wish to lose out on the opportunity of owning arguably the best amplifiers on the market at anything like an affordable price for the sake of their beloved having to twiddle two knobs instead of one (oo-er, missus) to hear their Take That CDs while doing the ironing then good luck to them... ;)
Marco.
Ali Tait
08-07-2008, 21:00
Dual volume controls? Just stick a lekkie band round them both and turn one of them...:):)
Hee Hee.
Marco,
I know exactly what you are trying to say. But as a technopleb you are not qualified! :ner:
You are right though, but not in the way you think!... There are technical ways around this, if the know-it-alls on PFM could be arsed, then they could overcome these so called 'problems'. I'm on Glen's (and yours) side here! :)
Duel mono volume pots are SO easy!... Two completely separate pots on one 'shaft' ( oi!...steady now!) is not earth shattering technology!
Some folk just cannot think outside the box!
If they like the performance, but not the 'facilities', change em!
Mikey, I would never claim to be technically minded; technicalities are not my forte, but I have good ears and can usually identify what upgrades constitute as a genuine (musical) improvement with hi-fi :)
I rate and admire Glenn's design ethos very highly, and there are other designers too who are somewhat less well-known but equally talented, IMO, and who post on this forum ;)
I'm sure your suggestion is easily implemented but I wouldn't even bother going there - I would simply enjoy the designs for what they are, which has already been covered in detail.
I think 'she who must be obeyed' has got rather too much authority in some people's homes...
Marco.
Here's a very interesting link about Croft and the ethos behind the products:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/croft/croft.html
Marco.
I would simply enjoy the designs for what they are, which has already been covered in detail.
I think 'she who must be obeyed' has got rather too much authority in some people's homes...
Marco.
I could not agree more! :)
The point is: That for those that this arrangement (god knows why) is unacceptable, get it changed!
The performance cost will be negligible!
I guess I'm saying that they are whining for the sake of it!... If this is what you want, buy it and get it modified to your liking (this is what always do) or look elsewhere!
Filterlab
08-07-2008, 22:03
...Two completely separate pots on one 'shaft' ( oi!...steady now!) is not earth shattering technology!...
I had exactly that on my passive - it was a completely dual mono design with no cross channel at any point.
Exactly... It ain't rocket science! :confused:
Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
08-07-2008, 23:07
No twin knobs please but I'm genuinely interested in a valve pre that will see off my solid state Spectral DMC-15. I tried a Glasshouse TVC passive and whilst it was more organic it was rather shut-in both spatially and dynamically compared to the Spectral. It was also less dynamic to the point of a slight shoutiness even if this was without any real hardness as such.
I'm looking for the dynamics, timing and soundstaging of the Spectral with perhaps more natural sounding vocals. The Spectral is very, very good indeed and is probably worth around £2000 on the s/h market. It was £4700 new back in 2001. The latest version of it is £4800.
Basically 2k is my top-line budget for a pre.
Hi Steve
If you are looking for a pre you would do yourself a good favour in searching out a listen to a Modwright SWL 9.0se with the Valve rectified PS. I used to own the very model and absolutely loved it, only changed to go to it's big brother the LS36.5
Andy - SDDW
One being sold here;http://www.adverts.hififorsale.com/public.asp
only changed to go to it's big brother the LS36.5
Yep, I must admit this one caught me unawares, I normally don't post about commercial kit, coz I can't and wont afford it. But the 36.5 is a bit of a problem, I just repaired one (shipping problem ripping transformer off its base), and having the normal "leave it in the system for the evening" test, started out with a "yep seems to work", turned into "ok, how do I build one of these".
For reference Marco, what was interesting is it did the same thing to my sytem as those interconnects of yours and Ians did, and then a bit more.
matodono1
09-07-2008, 03:53
Amar recommended 3 amplifiers for my Quad ESLs : the Duad, the Omseti and the Mesmeris (also £ 39,000 ?) He said the Mesmeris had just been specially made. To be fair he didn't try to persuade me to order without first coming to visit him in the Midlands ...
Hi Hans,
You should consider yourself to be a very large fish that slipped off the hook. The Duad never existed and you would not have been able to audition one. The Mesmeris were a one-off.... a pair of mono-blocs which were custom made for a far eastern customer (I think some rich guy in Taiwan) and were shipped out for less than half of the price that Amar quoted you (somewhere around eighteen to twenty thousand GBP).
So in fact you were on the hook to be ripped for £20,000.
There are at least four different customers who were ripped off who are now pursuing Amar in court for either lost/stolen equipment or orders which simply did not materialise (yes Amar we have all of the paper work with all of the financial irregularities and account changes). Amar even took orders which he knew he could not fulfil after Glenn had left and attempted to get a third party engineer to build Glenn's designs. That failed but did not prevent Amar from pocketing the money.
Glenn is currently pursuing Amar in the high court in order to settle a myriad of company issues just one of which is disputing the ownership of company assets such as the Om-seti which you mention. Alone this amp is worth around £12,000 it is nowhere to be found, disapeared by Amar along with tens of thousands worth of other company assets.
In the last conversation I had with Amar over a year ago I was told the OM-Seti was worth nothing because Glenn had messed up the design (according to this new engineer who is now world famous...... NOT) but I am sure you would not have been told that if you had come to the UK.
So all in all a lucky escape methinks,
Matt.
matodono1
09-07-2008, 04:01
The thing is Mike they're focussing on the wrong thing. The dual-mono volume controls are only a small part of the overall amplifier design - they are not responsible for the bulk of its performance!
The fact is Glenn's design ethos is (and always has been) about performance over convenience and if concessions are made in that area they are done reluctantly. Dual-mono pots are more accurate and thus offer better performance - end of. The percentage of improvement is irrelevant; it's the fact that they offer an improvement, no matter how small, that counts. This is why you will never see PCBs in a Croft design - hard-wiring is always the name of the game.
Marco.
Marco,
Don't worry about the PFM'ers, I am not. They think I am on there scouting for custom. Nothing could be further from the truth. As you are well aware Glenn has all the customers and work that he would ever need.
I am there simply because it is a big forum with a good Google profile and that helps me to establish the new CA site. What kind of web designer would I be if I did not do that? :smoking:
Regards, Matt.
So all in all a lucky escape methinks,
Matt.
Fortunately I had already been warned by Len Gregory ( Cartridgeman ) about Amar's nature after Amar claimed his version of the Absolute was no good even though it had been upgraded by Glenn
Hi Matt,
Don't worry about the PFM'ers, I am not. They think I am on there scouting for custom. Nothing could be further from the truth. As you are well aware Glenn has all the customers and work that he would ever need.
Yeah, I'm just waiting for you to be asked to pay a £50 trade membership fee ;)
I'm not worrying about them. I just find some of the comments somewhat ridiculous. 'Hen-pecked' comes to mind!
Yep, I know the score. If you hadn't even bothered to come on forums to announce the new range sales alone though dealers and word of mouth would probably be enough to keep Glenn busy for months!
I am there simply because it is a big forum with a good Google profile and that helps me to establish the new CA site. What kind of web designer would I be if I did not do that?
Indeed, and what you've done is understandable. It also puts some useful feelers out to gauge public interest. Our Google profile is rising by the day as the forum is getting lots of hits and generating plenty of interest amongst enthusiasts and in the industry. We're very pleased with how things are going so far and hope that you continue to use the site to advertise and promote Croft Acoustics where appropriate.
Marco.
Filterlab
09-07-2008, 08:50
Yeah, I'm just waiting for you to be asked to pay a £50 trade membership fee ;)
Blimey, that's a bit much isn't it?! What's the justification?
It's per annum, Rob, and therefore I think a bargain given the size of their membership and the potential business opportunities for their registered trade members.
We're nice, though, so even when we have 8000 members we'll still offer our trade members free advertising...perhaps :eyebrows:
Nah, we're not "slurpers" - oops I gave RD a mention :doh:
;)
Marco.
Steve Toy
09-07-2008, 09:16
Lets just be clear on this, there is no criticism of PFM here and certainly not of the Admin/mod team, but a few of the posters there - as you'd expect with such a large, busy and successful forum, do make some very strange noises.
I'd prefer not to have dual volume pots but I could live with them if:
a) they were either marked or stepped for easy left-right matching
and
b) the pre sounded bloody good.
I'd prefer to have remote control operation but I live without it already.
I'm very much of the persuasion that convenience is secondary to performance and Tasha understands.
Nick,
Yep, I must admit this one caught me unawares, I normally don't post about commercial kit, coz I can't and wont afford it. But the 36.5 is a bit of a problem, I just repaired one (shipping problem ripping transformer off its base), and having the normal "leave it in the system for the evening" test, started out with a "yep seems to work", turned into "ok, how do I build one of these".
That's interesting. I've not heard anything from ModWright but if Andy and you rate it then it must have something going for it. I'm very happy with my Croft pre so I won't be looking at anything else, though :)
For reference Marco, what was interesting is it did the same thing to my sytem as those interconnects of yours and Ians did, and then a bit more.
That's a pretty fundamental improvement then, as I thought the Transparents transformed your system, well not quite, but it certainly improved the way music was communicated. It was the type of upgrade that if I heard it in my own system I couldn't live without it.
I will be demonstrating the effect of Transparent cables in more detail at the forthcoming Chesterfest. Oh, and I'll be bringing my KAB-modified SL-1210 along, too, so you might be curious how this compares to your SP10.
Will you be coming? It would be good to meet up again. I'd like to hear that big valve amp of yours again - in fact didn't you say you were bringing it round to Ian's? :smoking:
Marco.
Filterlab
09-07-2008, 09:40
...We're nice, though, so even when we have 8000 members we'll still offer our trade members free advertising...perhaps :eyebrows:..
That's true. :) Even with 8000 members this place will cost no more to run, with maybe the exception of a bit more traffic space of course, but even so it's hardly a fortune.
Steve,
Lets just be clear on this, there is no criticism of PFM here and certainly not of the Admin/mod team...
Absolutely not, and I should have thought that was taken as a given. The parallel-running Croft thread on PFM understandably piqued my interest and therefore so did some of the comments which I felt were worth mentioning. I also know you've got an excellent relationship with Tasha where matters of hi-fi are concerned.
Del and me are the same. Ok, I'm fortunate that I've got a separate room for my hi-fi but if I didn't, and the system lived downstairs in the lounge, Del wouldn't give a flying fig what type of volume control was on the preamp. She would simply get used to it - in fact she would be more interested in the fact that it sounded superb than any issues of minor operational inconvenience.
What do people do I wonder who use computers only to access their music? It's not just simply a case of hitting the 'play' button - you have to access the relevant music files you wish to play and that takes more effort than quickly twiddling two volume knobs on a preamp. So if their beloveds can get used to that extra 'phaff' they can surely get used to using dual-mono volume controls!
I also don't know about you but I generally find that there is a 'set level' I tend to listen at which rarely varies. For me it's four clicks from zero on the volume control of the Croft. I rarely deviate from that listening position using CD or vinyl unless cranking it when people come round for a sesh. Therefore the dual-mono controls could simply be set to one's favourite position and left there.
The thing that I mainly find ridiculous though apart from the fact that someone would be daft enough to forgo owning a superb sounding preamp for the sake of its volume control arrangement is that people's wife’s are apparently so concerned about this issue. Surely there has to be some 'come and go' and mutual understanding in a relationship?
I mean, if Del wants a new cooker or washing machine she picks what she wants and decides on the relevant facilities of the products she's buying because it's mainly her who will be using them. However on the occasions where I use those items (and it is fairly regularly) I wouldn't kick up a fuss if I had to press two more knobs on the cooker to heat up my pasta or on the washing machine to spin-dry my jeans! Of far more importance is that the cooker and washing machine are more efficient and do their job better. Similarly, I wouldn't expect her to kick up a fuss if I bought a new preamp that used twin volume control knobs that was obviously far superior to what I had before - she would just get used to it as I would get used to using the new cooker or washing machine...
Or am I being too rational and simplistic? ;)
Marco.
Steve Toy
09-07-2008, 10:03
Reading this thread and the parallel one on PFM makes me want to buy one. OK, I'm not really taken with the idea of dual volume pots but I'd live with it if for £1400 it outperformed the Spectral DMC-15.
I'm looking to change my preamp and I would seriously consider a Croft. The Spectral is superb for the way it reproduces dynamic contrasts and subtle timing cues. It also excels in imaging and soundstaging. Where it falls down very very slightly is in naturalness, particularly of the human voice compared to a Glasshouse Transformer Volume Control passive pre that I tried in my system for a couple of weeks. However, the latter came second on all the other attributes compared to the Spectral.
A preamp that can do the lot for £1400? I'd live with twin pots for sure.
I also don't know about you but I generally find that there is a 'set level' you tend to listen at which rarely varies. For me it's four clicks from zero on the volume control of the Croft. I rarely deviate from that listening position using CD or vinyl unless cranking it when people come round for a sesh. Therefore the dual-mono controls could simply be set to one's favourite position and left there.
The thing that I mainly find ridiculous though apart from the fact that someone would be daft enough to forgo owning a superb sounding preamp for the sake of its volume control arrangement is that people's wife’s are apparently so concerned about this issue. Surely there has to be some 'come and go' and mutual understanding in a relationship?
I totally agree. I feel all smug inside when I read of chaps just caving in to unreasonable stipulations made by the Other Half. I suspect that on a few occasions the missus is just an excuse. Hi-fi forums are populated by hi-fi/music lightweights who simply won't go that extra mile for the best sound/£/$/€ performance and the poor wife ends up being the bloody scapegoat along the lines of "...oooh there's no way the missus would put up with that..."
Tasha admitted to me a while back that she'd listened to the system for months without ever adjusting the volume because she didn't know how to. I did explain that the knob marked "output level" did volume.
Tasha admitted to me a while back that she'd listened to the system for months without ever adjusting the volume because she didn't know how to. I did explain that the knob marked "output level" did volume.
Which kind of proves the point I made earlier, and I doubt she's alone ;)
You need to hear my preamp again, and hopefully we can do that soon.
One thing I meant to ask is if the new Croft preamps are line-level only or if they have a built-in phono stage? Croft preamps usually come equipped with a MM phono stage but this might now just be with the Charisma and the other more hi-end stuff.
If the new range does come with a phono stage then you're ready to go with an SL-1210 should you decide to purchase one :)
Perhaps Matt could clarify?
Marco.
That's interesting. I've not heard anything from ModWright but if Andy and you rate it then it must have something going for it. I'm very happy with my Croft pre so I won't be looking at anything else, though
It wasn't intended as a plug for them, but I was supprised by the improvement it made.
Will you be coming? It would be good to meet up again. I'd like to hear that big valve amp of yours again - in fact didn't you say you were bringing it round to Ian's?
I am hoping to, I mentioned to Al that I was waiting to see how the numbers played out, so there was room for the local folk first.
I was going to drag the 211 over to try with Ians speakers some time, I don't know what he is up to now though, given he was selling the EARs
One thing I meant to ask is if the new Croft preamps are line-level only or if they have a built-in phono stage?
I'm sure the website mentions a built in MM stage.
There you are Steve, even better! :)
How are you getting on with yours, Mikey?
Marco.
Nick,
It wasn't intended as a plug for them, but I was supprised by the improvement it made.
They are now on my 'recommended list' when offering upgrade advice to members.
I am hoping to, I mentioned to Al that I was waiting to see how the numbers played out, so there was room for the local folk first.
You've got to come. We can't have a 'fest' without the main man! Besides, what you bring is always worth hearing :smoking:
I was going to drag the 211 over to try with Ians speakers some time, I don't know what he is up to now though, given he was selling the EARs
He's still selling the 509s and has ordered a 'souped-up' Yaqin MC-110B from France. See here:
http://www.yaqin.fr/
Looks tasty. I'm observing with interest...
I'd leave the 211 thing until he comes back from Canada (off for 3 weeks from 13/7) or the Chesterfest. We'd both very much like to hear it in Ian's system and in mine, if there is time. I'm only 35-40 mins from Ian.
Marco.
matodono1
09-07-2008, 14:43
I'm sure the website mentions a built in MM stage.
Yes Marco,
Shian 7 is correct all pre-amps will have 3x line and an MM phono stage and there will be a separate Phono-stage in the range also.
As far as I know Glenn has no intention of ever producing another line only pre.
Also thanks to you and the guys for your continuing support of Croft Acoustics. PFM may well ask me for a trade fee but as you know I am only the web designer and personal friend to Glenn. I have no official post at CA, that is Glenns baby.
Regards, Matt.
matodono1
09-07-2008, 14:50
Nick,
I will be demonstrating the effect of Transparent cables in more detail at the forthcoming Chesterfest. Oh, and I'll be bringing my KAB-modified SL-1210 along, too, so you might be curious how this compares to your SP10.
Marco.
Marco,
My money is on the SP10, I may have told you that I once owned one and regret ever selling it.
I would like to hear those Tranparents sometime to see how they go up against my Siltechs and Chord sig. Maybe next time you come down?
Matt.
Oh I don't doubt that will be the case, Matt. It is fundamentally a better T/T, when performing at its best, and I know Nick's is an excellent example of the breed :)
I just think it will be interesting for everyone present to hear how close my modified 1210 gets to it. Some might be surprised at the results ;)
Good news on the phono stage. Jeez, that makes the new amps ever better value for money... Steve, get yer arse in there boy!
Marco.
I feel a bit of an alien posting on this thread but here goes...
As I said on PFM, I owned a Series 4"PP" preamp back in the early nineties and very good it was too in sound. I DID get pee'd off with the volume contraols because this particular one mistracked badly at low levels (three o'clock on one and half three on the other for example) and I could never seem to get a satisfactory balance until the volume controls were over half way. I passed this example to a mate who had it stolen and a used replacement found by Tom (NAS) Fletcher wasn't as good sounding (dull and thick toned).
Bringing things up to date, I read about what turned out to be a fellow PFMer's experiences with this model and he got in touch and sold his sample to me
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~apm3/diyaudio/Croft_preamps.html
Since acquiring it, Glenn suggested I remove the yellow caps added by the previous owner, removing the resistors across the line input sockets (but not the output ones) and replacing the two huge blue supply caps for Dubilier ones of under half the capacity. The mains filter has been lobotomised if not actually removed as yet and the line stage valves have been replaced with long plate Mullards. The sound is wonderful, if not quite as clear as the newer preamps he's done.
As for the volume controls, as you can see, this era of preamp puts them at each end of the front panel - purely for styling as all the non phono wires are solid core and most run together down the left hand side of the case. Fortunately, the two pots fitted (500K ones it seems, not 1Meg as suggested) track quite well on this sample. By the way, no elastic band I've tried causes the two pots to move at the same rate! They ARE a pain to use, but if they are alongside each other, then I suspect it won't be a problem for most enthusiasts. I suggested the use of separate controls is more to do with component values and availabilty rather than a real problem with stereo controls per se. I mean the latest Alps pots (and I believe Noble too) have excellent low level tracking and are quite benign in performance I think....
What you lot have totally missed IMO is that NOONE has any qualms about the expected performance of these new products, nor the proposed prices. The ONLY comments made have been about the use of two volume controls! Not bad at all for a little manufacturer is it?
Some nice info there, Dave :)
It's interesting to see how the design has evolved over the years. There's just something so 'right' about Croft amps - they seem to get on with the job of reproducing music without fuss or fanfare, and most importantly, impose little of their own character on the music.
What you lot have totally missed IMO is that NOONE has any qualms about the expected performance of these new products, nor the proposed prices. The ONLY comments made have been about the use of two volume controls! Not bad at all for a little manufacturer is it?
Of course not, but come on, some of the comments I've read on PFM about wives supposedly having a hissy fit at the prospect of having two knobs to twiddle (lol), as I've highlighted, are bloody ridiculous.
Marco.
Even 'ye olde' stuff seems to be still popular! :)
Look: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=190233269264&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=009
Plenty of bids there.
Yep, and I just love the 'made during a spare 5 mins in the metalwork class' look. Retro is just *SO* cool!
And I bet it still spanks the pants off of quite a few modern designs.
Marco.
Prince of Darkness
09-07-2008, 21:45
I've used the same casework and knobs from Maplins myself:) All good stuff inside I'm sure!
The interior of these early ones was just as well made as the later stuff. A few of us in our dealership took advantage of a nearby Croft dealer and bought some items over the years and of course we took the lids off and admired the point to point wiring etc inside.
Great stuf, great man - and I'll forgive him the last non-regulated OTL I bought that blew line fuses with no warning and if not checked with a meter every half hour, you had a firework display inside.....
Are you sure that wasn't one of Amar's 'modded' (and I use that term in the loosest possible sense) amps?
Marco.
Of course not, but c[ome on, some of the comments I've read on PFM about wives supposedly having a hissy fit at the prospect of having two knobs to twiddle (lol), as I've highlighted, are bloody ridiculous.
Marco.
Why? do you not think about the other people who may use the system when you are purchasing. I am looking around for a pre amp at the moment and one of these Crofts would probably have fitted the slot perfectly. NOT when you have to fark about with two volume controls every time you change source. My family have accepted valve amps as part of life from time to time, and the lack of a remote is neither here nor there, but given the level of components available I just do not see how or why you have to have two controls when one will do the same job. In the course of an evenings listening it is not unusual for all the sources to be used, and changed album by album, and to have to change two volumes, and hopefully balance them each time is to me geekery for the sake of it. I may not fit the profile of the average user of the forum, but I prefer a system that produces music, with a logical, and intuative control grouping.
If the designer/manufacturer is convinced that he is going down the only route that is acceptable to him, then that is his choice, but he is shutting the door on a lot of potential sales. It could be that he is not bothered about the loss of sales, and assumes that he will have enough work from people who will accept his choice.
Why? do you not think about the other people who may use the system when you are purchasing.
Of course I do, Colin. Did you not read my post where I used an example of my wife buying a new cooker or washing machine and compared this to me buying a new preamp (with twin volume controls)? If not I'd scroll back and read it (page 5 post #41). Specifically this bit:
The thing that I mainly find ridiculous though apart from the fact that someone would be daft enough to forgo owning a superb sounding preamp for the sake of its volume control arrangement is that people's wife’s are apparently so concerned about this issue. Surely there has to be some 'come and go' and mutual understanding in a relationship?
I mean, if Del wants a new cooker or washing machine she picks what she wants and decides on the relevant facilities of the products she's buying because it's mainly her who will be using them. However on the occasions where I use those items (and it is fairly regularly) I wouldn't kick up a fuss if I had to press two more knobs on the cooker to heat up my pasta or on the washing machine to spin-dry my jeans! Of far more importance is that the new cooker and washing machine are more efficient and do their job better. Similarly, I wouldn't expect her to kick up a fuss if I bought a new preamp that used twin volume control knobs that was obviously far superior to what I had before - she would just get used to it as I would get used to using the new cooker or washing machine...
I don't really see how that can sensibly be argued.
Other than that you make some valid points :)
What I would ask you is, say, if after hearing the Croft and being absolutely blown away by it, and it totally outperforming every other preamp on your audition list, would you then still not purchase it because of the twin volume controls?
I know for a fact though that regardless of what people think on forums here or elsewhere, Glenn will have work coming out of his ears when he gets going :smoking:
Marco.
Are you sure that wasn't one of Amar's 'modded' (and I use that term in the loosest possible sense) amps?
Marco.
This was in the days before Amar and Glenn subsquently went over to regulated power supplies, which I'm sure cured the problems I had with mine. The internal build was absolutely amazing - very simple wiring from point to point..
I haven't had a chance to hear a good OTL design, but I would like to. The Berning has a bit of a rep but I've not heard one. I seem to remember Merlin going rather 'ape' about it.
Fingers crossed, I should get a chance tomorrow to write a piece on the modifications Glenn has carried out to my Charisma-X :)
Marco.
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