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DSJR
20-07-2010, 17:35
Well, I've been using the Thorens for a couple of weeks now and am satisfied that it's a darned good spring-n-belt drive deck. The R200 fits it fine also.

However, the MC30 Super was beginning to drive me mad. Now, I like treble on my records and can easily tolerate the OC9 style of presentation, but the Ortofon has a sickly brightness to it and deep bass notes (when they're there on the record) are rather "soft." Furthermore, record roar (rather than specific surface noise) was pronounced.

I changed the Lentek Head Amp back to the AT630 and the lack of control was even worse, together with a bad sensitivity to hummmmmmmm depending on orientation and position, so I had a choice. Either fit the Stilton OC9 or....... grab the Decca and give it a go :eek:

I'm fortunate to have the Nagaoka headhsell, which has an inert and totally flat surface on which to mount the Podded Gold Microscanner. Fitting same was a doddle, except mine has the three post connector and I was loathe to take the cartridge apart to replace it after my troubles before.

I tried various playing weights and distantly remember using it in the Mentor at 1.9g. I also remember Garrott mentioning 1.5 - 1.6g so tried that as well, settling on 1.5..

So, what does the bloomin' thing sound like? Well, it doesn't really to be honest. Tracking on this sample is sublime, John Martyn's "Sweet Little Mystery" being cleared with absolutely no effort at all. The bass is great and only the TD125 and, more likely, the tonearm, lightening the power that this cartridge is capable of (the better the NAS partnering deck, the more powerful and "bigger" the sound gets with no artifice as with many meaty sounding cartridges - IMO. The better Decca's also lack the overly nasal "SNAP" as the stylus hits the groove and this one is still fine. I'm also lucky in that the Croft phono stage LOVE'S Decca's :) so surface noise and the *effects* of ticks and spits aren't exaggerated by ringing phono stages.

Can't wait to play some more vinyl - and I haven't really said that for a LONG time :)

I can't be too excited, but there may be a NAS Spacedeck coming my way. if it does, the first thing I'll do is remove the AT-F5 and pop the Decca in

John
20-07-2010, 18:17
Love what a good Decca does too

DSJR
20-07-2010, 18:29
The Jubilee looks to be a great top end cartridge and I'd love to hear a Reference one day, as both of these answer the question regarding rigidity..

In preference to an SPU of any vintage, I wonder what the C4E and 4RC sound like these days?

John
20-07-2010, 18:33
The Jubilee is stunning not heard the reference but a friend has the whole range and the Reference takes everthing further........now if only those lottery numbers come up

hifi_dave
21-07-2010, 10:58
At last he's done it....:lolsign:

You should have ditched those old, outdated cartridges years ago. Now you know what it's like to have your ears cleaned out..:ner:

Clive
21-07-2010, 11:07
I'm fortunate to have both Jubilee and Reference. I just hope they never bring out a cartridge even more expensive than the Reference. These things are totally addictive!

Dave, if you make you way north one day, you're welcome to have a listen.

Alex_UK
21-07-2010, 12:30
I guess if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it? Oh my goodness, I just did ask (google shopping) - I definitely can't! :lol:

I guess relatively, if it is a keeper and you kept it for say 10 years, then it's only £20 per month and will always still hold some of its value, probably cheaper than my subscription to Sky Movies/Sky Sports which I never watch...

hifi_dave
21-07-2010, 13:25
The London Reference is only £2450.00 and that doesn't need a 'pod', so you've saved £100 there.

The London Jubilee is a mere £1399.00. Surely that's worth saving for ?..:cool:

HighFidelityGuy
21-07-2010, 14:57
The Super Gold seems like quite good value at £600 ish seen as it's supposed to offer 90% of the performance of the Jubilee. I might have to try one if I ever get my TT up and running. I better start saving now. :)

Clive
21-07-2010, 15:03
The Super Gold seems like quite good value at £600 ish seen as it's supposed to offer 90% of the performance of the Jubilee. I might have to try one if I ever get my TT up and running. I better start saving now. :)
The Jubilee is effectively a Super Gold in a much more substantial body. I believe they select the coils in some way too.

HighFidelityGuy
21-07-2010, 15:16
The Jubilee is effectively a Super Gold in a much more substantial body. I believe they select the coils in some way too.

Ok, so I guess if you're using a phono stage in the sub £1000 area the Super Gold would be a good option? If that's the case then the Super Gold and Croft RIAA phono stage should be a great pairing from a price to performance ratio point of view? I've heard Glenn's phono stage loves a Decca up it. I think I might work towards this once my TT is working.

The only thing that bothers me about the Decca's is the amount of energy they dump into the arm. I've heard you need a well dampened arm but being a bit of a TT newbie I'm not sure what that means. :scratch:

I have a Pioneer PL-71 which has a low mass hollow arm. Would I need to modify this in some way to allow it to work properly with a Decca?

Cheers. :)

DSJR
21-07-2010, 15:25
Haven't posted pics yet, but the PL71 arm is certainly related to the Rega R200 and although I wasn't expecting much from the pairing, I was very pleasantly surprised :)

Use a Sumiko headshell and the DeccaPod if yours comes with the horrid plastic mount (you may have to trim off the connecting piece and fit this before mounting the 'Pod. track at 1.5g and you should be as delighted as I am. I don't think you'll need extra mass as the horizontal compliance is much higher than the vertical and there's no damping. NAS tonearms (designed with Decca's in mind) are fairly moderate mass I believe and gave excellent results.

The Croft separate phono stage is based on the more sophisticated "R" version (developed from mine I understand). Should be a marriage made in heaven I reckon.

HighFidelityGuy
21-07-2010, 16:32
Haven't posted pics yet, but the PL71 arm is certainly related to the Rega R200 and although I wasn't expecting much from the pairing, I was very pleasantly surprised :)

Use a Sumiko headshell and the DeccaPod if yours comes with the horrid plastic mount (you may have to trim off the connecting piece and fit this before mounting the 'Pod. track at 1.5g and you should be as delighted as I am. I don't think you'll need extra mass as the horizontal compliance is much higher than the vertical and there's no damping. NAS tonearms (designed with Decca's in mind) are fairly moderate mass I believe and gave excellent results.

The Croft separate phono stage is based on the more sophisticated "R" version (developed from mine I understand). Should be a marriage made in heaven I reckon.

That sounds promising. Thanks for the info. :cool:

hifi_dave
21-07-2010, 17:50
Are you talking about a Decca or a London ?

Decca cartridges haven't been manufactured for decades whereas the London cartridges, which are refined Deccas, are current models.

Working conditions are similar, they work really well with Croft phono stages as this is what Glenn uses himself. If you are not certain about the arm, the plastic mount is the way to go. You lose very little but it mops up a lot of the spurious energy which will upset the arm.

DSJR
21-07-2010, 18:36
Wot 'av I got guv, a DECCA Gold?

I thought you had a new Decca Gold, or is it now a LONDON Gold?

I'm confused...

P.S. Just got off me backside and looked Presence Audio up. They're now known as LONDON (DECCA) and the pod is a DECAPOD (one "C")

chris@panteg
21-07-2010, 18:47
Would a Decca/London work in the 309 ? if so next year i might try one .

REM
21-07-2010, 19:00
Would a Decca/London work in the 309 ? if so next year i might try one .

I emailed Presence Audio and asked if a London would be ok with the 309 and got the reply....'would be ok, unipivot would be better'....

Make of that what you will.

Cheers.

hifi_dave
22-07-2010, 08:55
You will have no trouble with a 309 and a London. Problems come with cheaper, flimsy arms with loose bearings. The energy generated travels up the arm tube and makes the bearings chatter and gives rise to mistracking and all sorts of problems.

Unfavourable reviews in the past are invariably because the cartridges have been used in unsuitable arms. If in doubt, the supplied plastic mount will improve things.

The original Decca arms were unipivot as is the current London arm and excellent results are obtained with a good unipivot. I currently use the Nottingham Analogue Ace Space and the Ace Anna, both of which were developed with the London/Decca.

hifi_dave
22-07-2010, 08:58
Wot 'av I got guv, a DECCA Gold?

I thought you had a new Decca Gold, or is it now a LONDON Gold?

I'm confused...

P.S. Just got off me backside and looked Presence Audio up. They're now known as LONDON (DECCA) and the pod is a DECAPOD (one "C")

You have a Decca. The latest models are London and Prescence Audio, who distribute them, take great pains to point out that they are no longer Decca. This is, I believe, because the Decca name belongs to another company and Prescence are not permitted to use it.

REM
22-07-2010, 11:21
You will have no trouble with a 309 and a London......



Somehow I wish you hadn't told me that....:rolleyes:

DSJR
22-07-2010, 11:39
Unfavourable reviews in the past are invariably because the cartridges have been used in unsuitable arms. If in doubt, the supplied plastic mount will improve things.



I was horrified to discover that HiFi Choice - yes you Messrs Colloms and Messanger - used Linn Basik LVX tonearms in their 1980's tests because of the ease of changing over.

I should add that much as I still respect the LVX (if properly fettled), it's DEFINITELY not suitable for demanding cartridges like the Linn MC's or Decca's. The Basik Plus is better, but still not good enough - and it's not just a mass thing either..

Batty
22-07-2010, 22:29
I have a Rock and rb250, seriously thinking of a London Maroon (read skint married bloke) I think the trough on the rock will tame just about any liveliness at the front end.

The Grand Wazoo
22-07-2010, 22:43
I was horrified to discover that HiFi Choice - yes you Messrs Colloms and Messanger - used Linn Basik LVX tonearms in their 1980's tests because of the ease of changing over.


I remember laughing about that when I read it in about '86 - it was hidden away in the wordy section away from the reviews!

hifi_dave
23-07-2010, 10:32
I have a Rock and rb250, seriously thinking of a London Maroon (read skint married bloke) I think the trough on the rock will tame just about any liveliness at the front end.

The London Maroon has a spherical stylus and the Gold an elliptical, both are £549.00.

You should get good results with your Rock/RB 250.

HighFidelityGuy
23-07-2010, 13:47
At divineaudio.co.uk the Maroon is only £398.99 while the Gold is £499. So the Maroon is pretty good value compared to the others in the range if you just wanted to try out a Decca. I'm guessing they hold their price pretty well on the second hand market. I've seen the older more flimsy models sell for several hundred on eBay.

DSJR
23-07-2010, 14:18
Max LOVED Decca's and had a real headache when they went off the boil twenty years or so ago. He went over to a Dynavector 17D2 at the time and this was an ok replacement.

The Maroon should be fine and can easily be re-tipped later. These cartridges love better tips and an Export (silver) a mate had with Pod and VDH tip sounded amazingly good in an Omega Point arm with a Bastin plinthed 301. Thanks again to HiFi dave for organising it at the time.

I'm getting all excited again... Hope marco likes the one he's going to try. I just find that of all the cartridges I've ever heard, a good working Decca makes you thankful you kept your records - and I haven't heard the biggies yet........

DSJR
24-07-2010, 10:01
A couple of pics as threatened...

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/TD125withR200withDecca.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF1438.jpg

Marco
24-07-2010, 10:36
Hi Dave,


Hope marco likes the one he's going to try.


I'm sure I will! So how's yours sounding then? :)

What arm is that you've got it fitted to - the R200?

Marco.

Clive
24-07-2010, 11:10
Here's another...to be totally accurate, it's not a Decca, it's a London.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/1007230011.jpg

John
24-07-2010, 11:13
Clive what is the Aluminum platter like compared to the acyclic on the Salvation I reckon it should take it up another notch

Marco
24-07-2010, 11:21
Here's another...to be totally accurate, it's not a Decca, it's a London.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/1007230011.jpg


Awesome! That'll definitely be going on the banner :)

Marco.

Clive
24-07-2010, 11:24
Clive what is the Aluminum platter like compared to the acyclic on the Salvation I reckon it should take it up another notch
Oh yes, the heavy solid platter makes it yet better sounding. Even more drive.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/1007230016.jpg

Clive
24-07-2010, 11:25
Awesome! That'll definitely be going on the banner :)

Marco.
Nick's got several on my photos, that one included!

DSJR
24-07-2010, 12:30
Hi Dave,



I'm sure I will! So how's yours sounding then? :)

What arm is that you've got it fitted to - the R200?

Marco.

It's sounding, well, not "sounding," if you see what I mean. The only thing lacking from my memories of it in the Mentor are a little bass authority and power, which could be the Croft still not happy with the Quad 33 on its tape outs (I'll fit the X10-D and see what happens...). I find I can turn the volume up a bit, not because of compression, but because I can hear more deeply into the mixes without the "sludge" that lesser turntable systems have. This is NOT an "organic" sound, but far more like master-tape and just what I like :)

Yep, it's in the R200 without extra mass. Its tracking at 1.5g which is fine for later Deccas and it copes with sssssssibilant recordings with total ease.

Clive
24-07-2010, 16:44
One more pic, this time with 2 Londons / Deccas

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/1007230025.jpg

YNWaN
24-07-2010, 17:28
Well, I've got a Gold but I need a Pod to fit it into - please point me to the purchase of one (a Pod that is) - Ta very much :).

Alternatively, Clive matey - send me one of your Deccas please ;).
_____________________


makes it yet better...

:stalks::doh:

Clive
24-07-2010, 17:54
Well, I've got a Gold but I need a Pod to fit it into - please point me to the purchase of one (a Pod that is) - Ta very much :).

Alternatively, Clive matey - send me one of your Deccas please ;).
_____________________



:stalks::doh:
Presence Audio should be able to sell you one but for your Aro you should be fine without one.

http://www.presenceaudio.com/

DSJR
24-07-2010, 18:55
I've never compared the two, but the Pod does help support the flimsy "tin" body. I was told it improved the sonics and took it that way. the ARO, being a unipivot, won't be in the slightest bit bothered I should imagine.

Clive
24-07-2010, 19:06
....and one tweak is one that mArk suggested to me, bluetak between the tin lid and headshell.

YNWaN
24-07-2010, 19:10
Presence Audio should be able to sell you one but for your Aro you should be fine without one.

http://www.presenceaudio.com/

Hmm..I'm not convinced - I will investigate Presence Audio....

Wow..they have the MOST minimal website ont ter tinterweb - you can't click on anything!

(thanks :))

DSJR
24-07-2010, 19:21
Tom suggested a thin film of glycerine between top of pod and headshell. It certainly worked as I recall as the two could only be separated with difficulty a few years later...

hifi_dave
24-07-2010, 19:22
I'm not certain that you can buy a Deccapod on it's own as it's not on the trade price list. They do, however, list a service to fit a Pod and calibrate the cartridge at £139.00.

Any problems, let me know.

I would suggest you try the Decca with it's plastic bracket on the Aro, just to ascertain how it goes, then consider the Pod fitting. As Dave suggests, wedge a small blob of Blu Tak or, better still, Plasticene between the cartridge lid and headshell. This serves two purposes - to dampen resonances and it keeps the cartridge in place when you remove the stylus guard.

YNWaN
24-07-2010, 19:39
Hmm..curiously, I'm not 'up' for paying someone to do something I can do myself in 5 mins :(.

I might just: A/ make my own, or B/ not bother.

___________

I've already tried the whole plastic bracket, bluTack thing in the past - I've owned it for years.

Clive
24-07-2010, 19:53
Hmm..curiously, I'm not 'up' for paying someone to do something I can do myself in 5 mins :(.

I might just: A/ make my own, or B/ not bother.

___________

I've already tried the whole plastic bracket, bluTack thing in the past - I've owned it for years.
Don't mess about. Come over for a listen now that I have a decent preamp at the heart of my system. If you like the Jubilee enough then borrow it.

YNWaN
24-07-2010, 20:08
OK - will do :).

John
25-07-2010, 17:59
Clive what preamp are you using now

DSJR
25-07-2010, 18:08
I'm not certain that you can buy a Deccapod on it's own as it's not on the trade price list. They do, however, list a service to fit a Pod and calibrate the cartridge at £139.00.

Any problems, let me know.

I would suggest you try the Decca with it's plastic bracket on the Aro, just to ascertain how it goes, then consider the Pod fitting. As Dave suggests, wedge a small blob of Blu Tak or, better still, Plasticene between the cartridge lid and headshell. This serves two purposes - to dampen resonances and it keeps the cartridge in place when you remove the stylus guard.

Fitting a Deccapod is pretty easy to do, but bearing in mind the variability of older ones, I'd rather send it to the makers to have the thing checked out at the same time, makes the £139 price seem very reasonable - the repair to mine (which included a new lateral coil plus re-assembly and testing) was £76 three years ago..

Good luck anyway. You may find yourself hooked Mark (I owned ES14's at the time of original purchase and loved that system until ATC's came along)

YNWaN
25-07-2010, 18:34
Don't you think I know what ATC's sound like Dave?

I even seriously considered buying some once but decided not to for a number of performance related issues.

However, I'm not familiar with the professional active models and it is this direction that my future interest would lie (if it was to be anywhere).

____________

A Deccapod is not a complex structure and is well within my abilities to design and make. In my own case this is, almost certainly, what I would do if I were to proceed down this path. As I said before, I have tried Deccas in the past - they didn't hook me then (though I did recognise their positive qualities).

Clive
25-07-2010, 18:37
Clive what preamp are you using now
Hi John, my preamp is the Tram Mk2, it's a DHT preamp from diyhifisupply, my one was not a kit, it's their assembled version. It's the first active preamp I've had in my system which I prefer to my TVC.

DSJR
25-07-2010, 18:42
Mark, I'm so sorry, it's typed words rather than the emotions and sentiments behind them that comes across...

I LOVED my ES14's, and the system using valves (ARC, TT and later, Croft) with the Mentor/Microscanner was one of the most emotive sounds I ever heard. Sure, the old Pro-Ac Response 2's were perhaps a bit more "integrated" at the time (so they should have been at £2Kpr), but I loved that system of mine.

What happened was that a mate wanted realistic sound-pressure levels at home. We made our way to the ATC room at the 1992 heathrow show (IIRC), met Ashley and the rest is history.

Apologies if you thought I was being patronising to the ES14's. NOT my intention as I'd have another pair tomorrow if I had the room...

Clive
09-08-2010, 21:08
OK Deccaphiles.......my Decca (really a modern London) is supposed to be at it's best with a 33k resistive loading and 220pF. With my Cornet2 phono stage (with all sorts of tweaks) I find that with 33k and 150pF (including cables) the treble is just a touch too much, even a little hard. I tried increasing capacitance, this dulls the treble but kills the air and space very quickly. So I tried 16k5 loading, WAY better.....this seems to tilt the frequency response a touch to the bass. Treble is now great and air is retained. I'd be interested to hear about the effects others have found with loading Deccas.

DSJR
09-08-2010, 22:05
The Decca at 47K is FLAT to 8KHz with some of the lesser ones getting ragged above 10Khz. The later ones and especisally those with decent line contact styli should be clean and flat to 19KHz.

The bass region of a Decca can rise a tad below 80Hz depending on the arm and also it's mass and stability.

Regarding the above, why attempt to balance the thing like a Grado? The bass on most LP's is horrendously distorted as it is (and the Decca reproduces this well...) and I'd personally want to minimise the effects of this, rather than emphasise it.

Can your fancy phono stages take 150mV before overloading and do they overload gently, rather than ringing or hard clipping on transients?

Clive
09-08-2010, 22:21
The Decca at 47K is FLAT to 8KHz with some of the lesser ones getting ragged above 10Khz. The later ones and especisally those with decent line contact styli should be clean and flat to 19KHz.

The bass region of a Decca can rise a tad below 80Hz depending on the arm and also it's mass and stability.

Regarding the above, why attempt to balance the thing like a Grado? The bass on most LP's is horrendously distorted as it is (and the Decca reproduces this well...) and I'd personally want to minimise the effects of this, rather than emphasise it.

Can your fancy phono stages take 150mV before overloading and do they overload gently, rather than ringing or hard clipping on transients?
Well....for a start the Reference works ok into 47K but London specify 33K as ideal, which is what I'd been using as this worked well with my other phono stage. The effect of lowering loading to 16k5 is subtle, it's certainly not a massive change (but it sounds a lot better....if you know what I mean), yes a slight bass boost and a better treble. The effect on the bass is less than a small VTA change. Both phono stages are valve based so I hope their overload capability is good though I don't know their spec. I do know that the same cartridge doesn't overload a battery powered solidstate phono stage. I would be amazed if the solidstate stage has anything like the overload capability of the valve stages.

Maybe the bass on LPs measures as distorted, it doesn't sound like it! Actually most bass distortion originates from room modes, which with careful speaker placement, a few room setups and a lot of DSP I have tamed pretty well.

I thought I'd play with the loading as when Kessler reviewed the Reference he liked 18k on an EAR phono stage. So far I like what I'm hearing. With my other phono stage 33k is good, indeed I don't like 18k on that one as when I tried it the bass became muddy.

Clive
09-08-2010, 22:57
I've just found some interesting stuff on why low capacitance and playing with resistive loading works well. I'll post more tomorrow...seems to align with what I'm hearing.

Clive
10-08-2010, 08:04
Dave,

Here are the links I promised:


Some interesting stuff here:
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html?inductance=130&capacitance=250

Talks about using resistive loading to tame cartridges, more effective than capacitance. The theory says the London Reference with inductance of 130mH with capacitive load of:
150pF then loading should be 30k
200pF....R 26k
250pF....R 23k

This is calculated by R = SQRT(L/C)


Another link, more readable, I've not read it all yet!
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6674
- Inductance is your enemy
- Capacitance should be as low as possible
- If the cartridge sounds very explicit, agressive in the treble, it needs a lower value shunt impedance.
- If the cartridge sounds too smooth and shut in, with lack of high treble, it needs a higher value shunt impedance.

Leave capacitance alone, low, the cabling is enough, and just change the resistors.
_________________

DSJR
10-08-2010, 09:21
I shall enjoy reading the links.

Seriously, the frequency response fed to a cutter (excluding RIAA pre emphasis) is saucer shaped, boosting the upper mid slightly. On headphones and using the Decca even on my compromised player (for the decca), varying bass quality is easy to hear and far more so than with other cartridges I've tried, which seem to smother this rather than it being a scanning fault with the Decca (if you see what I mean).

If you find the sound better with your revised loading then fine, but i remember the Shure V15XMR being liked and normally loaded this one rolled off steeply above 9KHz (flat to 20KHz when "properly" loaded).

The funny thing is, the sound on headphones I'm getting is much mellower and more "delicate" than the needle drops I downloaded from Mark (Ynwoan) recently, which were much more bright and shiny (EsCo'd Troika I believe).

Hmmm...... :scratch:

Clive
10-08-2010, 09:40
What I'm reading is that "properly loaded" for MM is not necessarily the usually specified 47k. The actual loading takes into account cartridge inductance and cable & phono stage capacitance. My friend who also has a Reference has 300pF of capacitance, his "proper loading" theoretically works out to 20k.

DSJR
10-08-2010, 09:41
P.S. The Vinyl Engine first post referred to the mk1 Elys sounding harsh with surface noises. now, I've sold dozens of these and set up every one and even have a mk1 in a Rega shell which I've compared to the Decca in recent days. the Elys mk1 is a splodgy sounding smother-fest and measures with a severe bass rise below 120Hz although flat thereafter. All the UK made Rega cartridges have good standard elliptical styli too and surface noise of new ones and mine is extremely low. the current mk2's have revised suspension and a much tighter sound..

Sorry Clive, I've heard too many "problems" assumed to be in one area when actually it's at the opposite end of the chain. Maybe not in your case, but so many tweeter implementations are ragged and resonance prone. Lively Decca's were loaded down to minimise the post 10Khz peaks, but I'm still assuming that better ones don't need this.

I do remember the technics SU-3500 amp had three impedance settings on the phono stage, but didn't realise how important this was with many moving magnet style cartridges until decades later...

DSJR
10-08-2010, 09:45
What I'm reading is that "properly loaded" for MM is not necessarily the usually specified 47k. The actual loading takes into account cartridge inductance and cable & phono stage capacitance. My friend who also has a Reference has 300pF of capacitance, his "proper loading" theoretically works out to 20k.

I haven't done the maths, but Martin Colloms suggested that thousands of pF may be needed on the wilder Decca's. I'm still working on the fact that the Jubilee and Reference are cleaner and tidier than mine at HF.

A shame that proper technical reviews don't seem to be carried out these days, but there are (legal/litigation fears) reasons I understand.

Clive
10-08-2010, 09:50
Dave, as you can see from my system I don't just have a single source. I am in no doubt that the rest of my system is performing really well. Indeed with my other phono stage, using the London recommended 33k loading (not 47k!!!) the system sounds wonderful. What I've been doing is to experiment with the Cornet2 phono stage, modding it and now I'm working to get the balance of sound back. Resistive loading is working better here than capacitive loading. Having heard this I then found I'm not alone and this is supported by the theory as explained in technical detail by Jim Hagerman.

I'm very much of the view that deck/arm/cartridge/phono stage have to be viewed as sub-system and work as a whole, especally so if you have multiple sources feeding your system. What comes out of the phono stage must be a balanced sound that doesn't need fixing by playing with tweeters.....assuming the amp and speakers are also suitably balanced,

Clive
10-08-2010, 09:54
I haven't done the maths, but Martin Colloms suggested that thousands of pF may be needed on the wilder Decca's. I'm still working on the fact that the Jubilee and Reference are cleaner and tidier than mine at HF.

A shame that proper technical reviews don't seem to be carried out these days, but there are (legal/litigation fears) reasons I understand.
I saw that Barry used 3900pF.......I find the sound dull with a few hundred pF so the new Londons vs the old Deccas must have VERY different characteristics.

DSJR
10-08-2010, 09:58
No, I don't think they're so different.

Looking at the Hagerman link, it appears that the big differences are above 20KHz? Since only the CD-4 cartridges were measured up to 50KHz then my Decca may just need damping outside of the audibly frequency band. Mine does sound a little light in the bass, but my way of dealing with this eventually would be to get a tuntable upgrade (this cartridge in the Mentor has bass weight and extension to die for).

What's the easy way for me to reduce the impedance loading?

Clive
10-08-2010, 10:04
No, I don't think they're so different.

Looking at the Hagerman link, it appears that the big differences are above 20KHz? Since only the CD-4 cartridges were measured up to 50KHz then my Decca may just need damping outside of the audibly frequency band. Mine does sound a little light in the bass, but my way of dealing with this eventually would be to get a tuntable upgrade (this cartridge in the Mentor has bass weight and extension to die for).

What's the easy way for me to reduce the impedance loading?
The easy way is to place a resistor in parallel with the existing 47k at the input of your phono stage. For experiments you can use a "y" connector at the input of your phono stage and simply plug in the parallel resistors via a phono plug. Or you can solder a resistor across phono sockets or phono plugs. I've made a DIP switch board with several caps and resistors. Use 110k across the existing 47k to give 33k.

Clive
10-08-2010, 10:09
Here's how I'm experimenting:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/1008100001.jpg

bigmoog
11-08-2010, 13:26
I have used deccas on and off in one form or another for more than 25 eras....and nearly always the loading I employ is 47k which I find enables the cartridge to perform adequately.

a couple of years ago I got a top sparky to rewire the house and fit a new earth from my stereo spur to a neighbours garden.....this made the biggest improvement to the deccas (hum........) performance.......in fact it improved it so much that I will never use anything else (apart from an spu or another decca london) ever again :cool:

Clive
11-08-2010, 14:42
Hi Jonathan,

I agree that at 47k Deccas/Londons perform at least adequately, if not rather better than that! However.....adequate is not enough for me.

47k input impedance for phono stages is just an arbitrary figure chosen to approximately suit most MM level output cartridges. It could easliy just as well be 43k or 50k....or whatever.

These are not my words but from someone with much better theoretical knowledge than me:

A cartridge's electrical response is simulated by a voltage source in series with an inductance (Lc) and resistance (Rc). The load capacitance of the interconnect and preamp are lumped together (Ca). Load resistance of preamp is Ra.

Now, a London possesses an inductance of 130mH per channel. London specify an optimal capacitance of 220pF. Dialling these into SQRT(L/C) gives a load impedance requirement of 24.3k. This is laws of physics stuff and theory as ever is just a guide. Note that London specify 33k as being optimum, I suppose 47k could be described as adequate. The point is that it's worth experimenting, just as most of us do with VTF. The quoted spec is a great starting point but that's all it is....a starting point.

Apologies for the grotty scan of the London spec.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/decca132.jpg

DSJR
11-08-2010, 15:43
Any idea how much and at what frequencies the top end would be altered going from, say, 47K to 20K for example?

The easy one to adjust would be the M2 settings on the Quad 33 phono board.

I've just discovered that I have a "hummy" valve on the Croft. It's one of the CV4004's and the hum switched channels when I swapped them over (two per channel). I've returned to the OC7 for now (it likes the TD125/R200) but lacks the treble delicasy of the microscanner ;)

Ooooh, I LOVE Deccas, Londons, whatever :surf:

:gig:

:king:

Clive
11-08-2010, 15:52
Given the optimum is 33k then I have to assume the specs for frequency response are measured at 33k. Therefore both 20k and 47k will be less flat than 33k. I can only say that to my ears with my system both 22k and 33k sound better than 47k but in the greater scheme of things the differences are not night and day but in my context they are significant enough to be relevant. The 16k5 I used earlier was simply due to the convenience of using 2 x 33k's.

Bad luck on the CV4004.....

How about Deccons for a more usable name?

bigmoog
11-08-2010, 16:17
also Deccons :) require superb set up, incredible tonearm and preamp as well as a decent atmosphere......from experience they dislike fag smoke :cool:

DSJR
11-08-2010, 16:19
You should have given them things up BM, along with everything else..... ;)

bigmoog
11-08-2010, 16:51
You should have given them things up BM, along with everything else..... ;)


I have not smoked in 2 years. but I cannot give up my other vices :eyebrows:

Marco
11-08-2010, 21:26
Morning five-finger shuffle? ;)

Marco.

Alex_UK
11-08-2010, 22:06
Normal service is resumed! ;)

Marco
11-08-2010, 22:11
Indeed.... May all your ups and downs be between the sheets!

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5049/1485.gif (http://img832.imageshack.us/i/1485.gif/)

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Marco.

ChrisKemp
06-12-2014, 14:02
Very quiet in here! No London Decca fans have anything more to share:)

This is the best cartridge I´ve heard and it will probably be my last. If I ever change out my Super Gold it would be for a better London Decca.

topoxforddoc
26-12-2014, 18:19
I've been using Deccas too since the late 70s - have been hooked ever since I bought my first one, a Maroon. A little while ago, it took me 3 years to find a C4E, which JW rebuilt for me. Just bloody marvellous, even better than my original Garrott Bros Gold, which I had tweaked by the long departed brothers back in 1981. It sits on my AO rewired 70s vintage Hadcock 228 and goes into a TRON reference phono stage built with 33k and 220pF to suit the Decca.

I have 2 tonearms on my Platine Verdier - the Hadcock/Decca setup and a Schroeder Model 2 and Allaerts MC1B cartridge fed into the MC phono input on my TRON Meteor preamp. Guess which one I listen to most of the time?

DSJR
26-12-2014, 20:25
Anyone ever plotted or measured (sorry) what 33k actually does to a Decca? The Garrott Microscanner actually measures ruler flat to over 20k at 47k loading (tested in Hifi Choice) and I fear that reducing this as some audiophiles do, actually rolls the hf off too early in an attempt to tame the sizzle over 10kHz, which is more phono stage overload than an actual cartridge issue IMO. The Gold Microscanner of mine (and other genuine samples hifi Dave had on dem in the early 80's) are perfectly fine at 47k loading.

Note below, the tracking weight was too low (mine says 1.6g, not 1.3, at which it does exactly what Paul Messenger says it does. The 'slightly shallow depth' effect I've gone on about before so shan't say any more about. The direct nature of the sound is in my opinion, an exact reproduction of the cutting session. So many cartridges add false 'bloom' that is entirely missing in a Decca and so many cuts 'feature' boosted upper-mids. A well cut record though will give you bass aplenty though. In the Mentor arm, mine NEVER had any issues in the treble at all and a well designed valve phono stage is an advantage here IMO.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/GarrottDeccaChoice.jpg (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/DSJR_photos/media/GarrottDeccaChoice.jpg.html)

Next time I visit hifi dave, I've threatened to take my scanner with me so I can scan some of the old reviews he has in his vintage magazine stash. One I know he has is the mutli-cartridge test in Hifi Sound, which included the C4E. I think he's also got 'the' turntable group test including the Sony TTS3000, TD124, G99 and 401.

topoxforddoc
26-12-2014, 20:27
Anyone ever plotted or measured (sorry) what 33k actually does to a Decca? The Garrott Microscanner actually measures ruler flat to over 20k at 47k loading (tested in Hifi Choice) and I fear that reducing this as some audiophiles do, actually rolls the hf off too early in an attempt to tame the sizzle over 10kHz, which is more phono stage overload than an actual cartridge issue IMO. The Gold Microscanner of mine (and other genuine samples hifi Dave had on dem in the early 80's) are perfectly fine at 47k loading

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/GarrottDeccaChoice.jpg (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/DSJR_photos/media/GarrottDeccaChoice.jpg.html)

Next time I visit hifi dave, I've threatened to take my scanner with me so I can scan some of the old reviews he has in his vintage magazine stash. One I know he has is the mutli-cartridge test in Hifi Sound, which included the C4E. I think he's also got 'the' turntable group test including the Sony TTS3000, TD124, G99 and 401.

Hi Dave,

I haven't measured it at 33k. I spoke to John Wright and asked him. I thought he might know. Nice to see the Garrott review. Mine is still in occasional use - still have the original paperwork from the brothers- RIP.

Charlie

Charlie

walpurgis
26-12-2014, 20:36
ZYX quote 20Hz to 20kHz +/- 1db within a 10Hz to 100kHz overall response on all their UK sold models I believe.

I was using Deccas a lot over a forty year period until I started using ZYXs.

southall-1998
26-12-2014, 21:24
ZYX quote 20Hz to 20kHz +/- 1db within a 10Hz to 100kHz overall response on all their UK sold models I believe.

I was using Deccas a lot over a forty year period until I started using ZYXs.

I remember hearing a Decca cartridge at your place. Very lucid and TIGHT sounding!

S.

walpurgis
26-12-2014, 22:34
I remember hearing a Decca cartridge at your place. Very lucid and TIGHT sounding!

S.

That was a Maroon.