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View Full Version : Speaker Wire. It pains me to say this, but......



combwork
18-06-2008, 14:47
It makes a difference, It really does.

The following goes totally against my engineering "if you can't measure it, it isn't there" outlook but I've just bought two 3 meter lengths of CHORD RUMOUR 2 and using the same terminations (taken off the previous cable) and using the same amp and speakers, there's a real measurable difference; 'measurable' in the sense that I can hear it. I shouldn't be able to. Even if there's some mechanical difference between the old and new cables in terms of the voltage and current they can carry, the differences in sound should be infinitesimal, far smaller than anything my 59 year old ears can hear, but it's not................

I'm not a 'new age' kind of person; this audible difference that can't be measured puzzles me:(

lurcher
18-06-2008, 17:20
Yep, this is where it all becomes a problem. My life would be so much simpiler if what I "know" to be the case in terms of EE actually worked that way in practice.

Mike
18-06-2008, 17:43
And then, when it sounds better after 'burning in' all rationality goes completely out of the window! :scratch:

Mike
18-06-2008, 17:46
Oh!... and then there's that synergy (hate the word) thing!

Whats that all about then? :confused:

shane
18-06-2008, 18:38
It's not that it can't be measured, rather that we haven't worked out how to measure it yet.

DSJR
18-06-2008, 19:35
I bet Rumour 2 can be measured for its characteristics. Mine sounds a bit "toppy." Don't know if the silver plating may have something to do with it... Sounds great with Harbeths and Spendorszzzzzzzzzzzzz.......

SamJones
18-06-2008, 20:56
Not that I've heard any differences between cables myself, I read about a fourth passive circuit element, besides L,C and R, that had been predicted in 1971 but discovered only recently to make a 'memristor'. Whether this has any effect on audio cables though has yet to be proved.

Marco
18-06-2008, 20:59
I bet Rumour 2 can be measured for its characteristics. Mine sounds a bit "toppy." Don't know if the silver plating may have something to do with it... Sounds great with Harbeths and Spendorszzzzzzzzzzzzz.......

Oi, I thought you liked Spendors! ;)

And, my boy, there's absolutely nothing "zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz" about my SP100s :ner:

More on the subject of speaker cable later.

Marco.

jandl100
18-06-2008, 21:50
Spendors? A definite cure for insomniacs! ;)
... OK, Marco, maybe not your top o' the line ones, but most of 'em!

Speaker wire? Hmmm ... yes. Every now and then I try and be sensible .... a few weeks back I did the sensible thing and bought some Van Damme Blue cable that so many folks say is as good as any audiofool cable hoping that I could then sell my LFD audiofool cables for mucho £££. Sigh - it lasted about 10 minutes in my system ... sounded like I'd replaced my luvvly, lively & transparent Quad 57s with middle-range Spendors. :goodnight: :doh: :lol:

Marco
19-06-2008, 09:25
Hahahaha... Yes, quite! :eyebrows:

I have to (mainly) disagree, though. I'm not a fan of the 'S' Series Spendors and can see where you're coming from with those, although I would hesitate to call the S9s 'sleepy sounding'. However as far as the current Classic Series goes, I totally disagree as these are voiced very differently.

I've heard them all from the SP3/1, SP2/3, up to the SP100s, and providing the system supplying the signal isn't boring then the sound they produce isn't boring (far from it). Maybe that was the problem - the system you were running them with was boring? :lolsign:

;)

Speaker cable? Shane's got it spot on:


It's not that it can't be measured, rather that we haven't worked out how to measure it yet.


And I would add that just because something can't be measured doesn't mean that it doesn't exist (see above). I think there are many effects happening with audio that our ears can detect but science so far cannot prove such as:

1) Why do valves reproduce music more realistically than solid-state components when they measure more distortion?

2) Why does upgrading the last metre of mains cable supplying equipment make a difference?

3) Why does installing a separate mains spur (or spurs) for a hi-fi system make a difference?

4) Why do properly designed equipment supports make a difference?

I have heard, quite frankly, huge differences with the above over the last 10 years or so, not just in my own system, but in many others in different locations using all sorts of different equipment, and in some instances under blind conditions. And I'm far from alone.

So Combwork, I wouldn't worry about hearing an improvement with your Chord speaker cable - that's just how it is when you install something in your system which is better in some way to what was there before. My advice would be to try and leave your 'engineer's head' at work. When judging subjective things like hi-fi, operate under the principle of 'if it sounds better then it *IS* better', and worry not.

Trust me your domestic hi-fi and music enjoying life will be much less complicated and more pleasurable that way! :smoking:

Marco.

Togil
19-06-2008, 09:56
Marco,

I noticed you use "Ultra" for interconnects but only "Plus" for speaker cable - is that for sound quality reasons ?

Marco
19-06-2008, 10:55
Hans, no, sadly for reasons of cost! :)

Marco.

lurcher
19-06-2008, 11:50
Yes, but the eng head wants to measure something for other reasons than just to prove it exists. If you can reliably measure, then you can start to investigate the cause, and you can create a theory about what causes the effect, and so find better solutions that achieve the same end.

Having said that. I think some cables are intentionally broken to cause audible effects, often I think its to roll of top end, to make harsh SS amps more bearable.

Note I said some, not all.

Marco
19-06-2008, 12:15
I understand and appreciate the reasoning, Nick. And I also understand why engineers like to delve deeper into cause and effect. You are certainly amongst the most open-minded of the breed!

Sometimes though I think with a subjective issue such as hi-fi it's often best to adopt the approach of 'if it sounds better then it *IS* better' and worry not about the cause because if you hear something is better but can't prove it with measurements then you start questioning your ears, belief system and everything else, and the whole process is liable to drive you insane ;)

Far better, IMO, with things like cables to simply trust your ears, sit back, spin some tunes, and enjoy your system's newly improved sound as a result of whatever upgrade or modification you've made and worry not about why it happened. At the end of the day a hi-fi system is for your personal enjoyment of music, not part of some on-going, all-consuming, scientific experiment. There comes a point when ascertaining the effect of cables or whatever, after reasonable experimentation has taken place, where you've just got to trust what your senses tell you and move on :smoking:

Regarding cables, you certainly heard the effect of the Transparents Ian and I brought round that day... :)

Marco.

lurcher
19-06-2008, 15:26
At the end of the day a hi-fi system is for your personal enjoyment of music, not part of some on-going, all-consuming, scientific experiment.

Ah, well, you see thats we we must agree to disagree :-)

The two are not mutually exclusive IMHO.

Marco
19-06-2008, 15:48
Indeed :)

Experimenting is fine up to a point but really I just want to listen to music as ultimately that's what my system is for. I can completely understand though why it might be different for you.

Marco.

Mike Reed
19-06-2008, 22:22
Although I'm a believer in a dedicated mains system, I am no tweaker, and hate fiddling wth my hifi. Even changing interconnects is a hassle, as my stuff is very close to a wall.

However, I've recently been using my 'prize' (from Dave at Greenhomeelectrics) of a pair of Audioquest i/cs with Arcam plugs instead of my Chord Signatures, from my Meridian G08 to my Naim 552. The difference is apparent, but which is the better within my system is debatable, despite (I would imagine) the vast difference in cost.

I rather likened the difference to that between my Lyra Helikon (explicit, detailed and exciting) and my Koetsu Black (just sounds 'right', without seeming to lose anything, but within a 'darker', more forgiving, framework).

The only other 'experiment' I've done recently is to temporarily replace the case fuses in my pre. and CDP with blanks (on different occasions when I had to power down for other reasons). Quite amazing; chalk and cheese as far as clarity and detail are concererned. Can this be measured? I doubt it. It's still the same electricity, only less impeded, so, ergo, this latter point must make the difference. (Flawed?) logic versus scientific measurement, possibly.

Probably not the safest solution to opening the sonic window, (and maybe even less so on valved equipment), but the results were quite convincing.

I wonder if anybody has gone down this road, especially with valves, and what their findings were. Guess that a good mains feed would help, or it might be a case of putting the cart before the horse.

If my experience is a micrcocosm of the wider hifi world it bears thinking about that manufacturers need to limit the capabilities of their equipment on the grounds of safety because nobody has come up with a better device than the fuse.

Mike
19-06-2008, 23:35
Fuses... ooh, now that's a touchy subject!

Check this out: http://www.wduk.worldomain.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4322&highlight=fuses

:scratch:

Marco
19-06-2008, 23:41
I have my own thoughts on fuses, 'blanks', etc, based on considerable experience of tweaking in that area, and will comment in detail tomorrow.

Marco.

BajaGringo
20-06-2008, 01:01
I have gone back and forth on this subject including my own testing. When I installed the "upgraded" speaker wire and sat back to listen, I could swear that I could hear a difference.

I shared that insight with a friend who then put me along with a few of our friends through a blind trial, running 2 pairs of identical speakers through the A and B channels of my Pioneer SX1250 with the same 3 songs off 3 different CD's. We would each score our impression of the speaker comparison after multiple A/B switches on each track in secret from our test partners.

He ran one test with upgraded wire on A - normal wire on B, another test just reversing the two, then run all upgraded wire and finally all normal wire. We had no clue what order he did the test in and just gave our honest opinion. When we were done I realized that he had given us five tests instead of the planned four.

He repeated one of the tests and it turns out that we gave him different results on the identical tests as well as totally inconsistent results on the rest of the comparisons.

I guess it is something we each have our own opinion on. Or maybe I'm old and my hearing has degraded beyond the ability to distinguish...

Marco
20-06-2008, 12:22
Baja,

I don't doubt that you're able to discern differences with cables, under the right conditions when you’re relaxed and in the right frame of mind. The problem with all this A/B testing is that it's too easy to become confused, particularly when fatigue sets in.

I find the best way to judge the effect of cables is to do it alone when you're chilled out. Then simply choose a piece of music that you know inside out, and how it normally sounds (aural memory is a great thing) and use this for the comparison. I normally find within the first few notes whether or not a particular cable is lending a positive effect to the sound (and the music) or not.

Also, in general, try initially to forget about the 'hi-fi' differences such as tonal variances, etc (you can work on this later) and listen to cable 'A' for a while concentrating on if it draws you into the music - crucially, does it make the music interesting to listen to or does it just simply wash over you in unemotional blandness? How does the music sound compared to how you're used to hearing it?

Then change over to cable 'B' and perhaps just use the intro to judge whether there is any difference, and if there is whether or not the difference heard is beneficial to your enjoyment of the piece of music and better in that respect than cable 'A'. In my experience, your ears will very quickly pick up on any differences, but sometimes if you listen for too long, or listen too hard, you can miss them.

This is basically the process I use for evaluating equipment or cables and it's served me well over the years. Don't give up because you think your hearing has degraded beyond the ability to distinguish changes because I'm almost certain that's not the case. In fact in many cases you can use your age and experience to help you determine differences. Younger people with 'better' hearing often make mistakes in judgement because of their inexperience of hi-fi. Use your experience as a valuable tool and not something which is a hindrance.

There's life in the old dog yet! :smoking:

Marco.

P.S I'll deal with fuses later.

Mike
20-06-2008, 15:49
P.S I'll deal with fuses later.

Don't!..... :mental:


:lolsign:

Mike Reed
20-06-2008, 16:16
Don't!..... :mental:


:lolsign:

DO!!!!!!!!! All in the interests of the (I imagine) cathode experience, Marco. Mine is only with s.s.

SHIAN,

Thanks for your link; very interesting, and I was unaware of jiggery-pokery in this field. However, many postings were considering the plug fuses, which is irrelevant, really.

BajaGringo
20-06-2008, 16:28
Like I said. It is not an issue I have a definite opinion on as I said originally. You may be right that the test scenario was not ideal and sometimes they say your first impression is the right one.

In any case, I went with all upgraded cable just to be sure...

hehehe...

Mike
20-06-2008, 16:29
many postings were considering the plug fuses, which is irrelevant, really.

Why "irrelevant" may I ask?

Do you REALLY want Marco to start harping on about fuses?..... The big ol Monkey can't even get to grips with a soldering iron. God only knows what will happen if he starts poking about where there's live electricity!!!

:lolsign:

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
20-06-2008, 16:41
Marco
Careful please this could be the result. As happened to me after a commment from a certain forum member :lol:

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll246/HyCoignitor/Audio%20Art%20of%20Sound/Explode.jpg

Andy - SDDW

Mike Reed
20-06-2008, 21:51
L
Why "irrelevant" may I ask?

Do you REALLY want Marco to start harping on about fuses?..... The big ol Monkey can't even get to grips with a soldering iron. God only knows what will happen if he starts poking about where there's live electricity!!!

:lolsign:

IRRELEVANT to me because I don't have any plugs, also because if you've got plugs and 13 amp fuses you're unlikely to hear the improvements brought about by experimenting with case fuses, I would think.

Your comments are forming clouds of doubt over my mental image of Marco's expertise in audio D.I.Y. and other valvey goings-on. That he believes in the mains factor gives me a whisker of credibility to cling to.

Luvverly pic, SDDW. Reminds me of my cable jointing days for AEI in the early sixties.

Mike
20-06-2008, 22:01
IRRELEVANT to me because I don't have any plugs, also because if you've got plugs and 13 amp fuses you're unlikely to hear the improvements brought about by experimenting with case fuses, I would think.

Ah!... gotcha!

I'm kind of in the same boat. I use plugs but they are gold plated round pin 15A jobs with no fuses. I've tried changing the internal fuses in my equipment but can't honestly say I can hear any difference. :confused:

Erm, but some of those have been in there since day one.... I feel some playtime coming on! ;)

I've not tried (at least in this house) playing with any of the supply fuses or wiring. Yet! :)


Cheers,
Mike.

Mike Reed
20-06-2008, 22:15
Mike,

They are (were) great plugs, and expensive, too! Presumably the sockets are similarly gold-plated, so you shouldn't have oxydisation problems.

You mention supply fuses. Surely you don't have an old-style fuse box, as I can't think of any others apart from the 60/80/100 amp incoming main fuse.

Mike
20-06-2008, 22:20
Presumably the sockets are similarly gold-plated, so you shouldn't have oxydisation problems.

Correct! :)

Mike
20-06-2008, 22:21
Surely you don't have an old-style fuse box

Oh yes I do! :)

Mike Reed
21-06-2008, 10:55
Oh yes I do! :)

Wow! You've got a whole world of fundamental and essential upgrading ahead of you. Wonderful!

I've read a few posts saying that the old fuse wire is not a patch on MCBs sonically. I've no idea, but it does make sense, as the MCBs (I have) are 32 amps, which is twice the old 15amp wire I used to use for the main circuits. Also, the old system had two connection points, whereas MCBs only have one ('Every little helps')

Mike
21-06-2008, 11:00
Wow! You've got a whole world of fundamental and essential upgrading ahead of you. Wonderful!

Indeed I do! :)

I haven't even tried giving the old fuse holder pins a good clean, never mind a dedicated spur/radial yet. The garage (where it all lives) is waist deep from front to back with all sorts of crap so it aint gonna be easy! :(

Primalsea
02-08-2008, 18:45
I was going to start new threads but this one combines both things going on in my head at the moment.

We love fuses in UK, we have them everywhere. We seem to have a very belt & braces (& suspenders & body armour, cotton wool wrap) attitude. We have fuses or breakers in the consumer unit, another in the plug of our multiway block, then more in each plug that comes off of that, and then we usually have them in the equipment.

Correct me if I'm wrong but surely we just need one in the consumer unit and one in the unit on the IEC inlet?? As long as they are the correct rating this would be safe enough. On that note why aren’t fuses of different ratings different physical sizes?? That way people couldn’t use the wrong rated fuses!! I don’t think I have ever been anywhere where every item in the building had the correct fuse, 13AMP does not fit all.

Whether fuses have a sonic effect I don’t know myself but I’m all for the least amount of good connections made with longevity in mind. The other thing is fuses do tend to pop just through fatigue which must be due to cyclic heating and the expedited corrosion this brings. From an engineering point of view this is a non linear element in the chain.

The other thing going on in my mind is that I have just bought some Chord Rumour II just because I wanted something that would not degrade other time as much as the PVC sheaved conduit wire I was using (good connections with longevity in mind and all that). I was highly sceptical that I would hear any difference but I have to admit I believe I can. This may just be down to the old dodgy copper wire had oxidised connections to the point where it had slowly had an audible effect. Or possible is it this dark mystical art of Hifi cable magic??

Marco
02-08-2008, 19:04
Paul, I'm with you on fuses - they're evil things, sonically, for a hi-fi system. The fuse in plugs though is there to protect the flex.

I wonder why we're the only country in the world to use fuses in mains plugs? Everyone else seems to get on just fine without them...

That's why I have a totally hard-wired mains set-up for my system. From the dedicated CU just along from my system, my mains leads are hard-wired directly into the 64A MCBs inside, with no mains plugs, plug fuses, mains blocks, or any other such nonsense... :eyebrows:

The CU is fed from a single spur wired with 32mm armoured cable from the incoming mains supply, and I have a dedicated Earth for the hi-fi via a series of star-wired 6ft Earth rods plunged into the garden.

The last time I measured the impedance on my supply it was .32 Ohms.

The sonic effect of all my shenanigans is not subtle ;)

Marco.

Beechwoods
02-08-2008, 19:41
The CU is fed from a single spur wired with 32mm armoured cable from the incoming mains supply, and I have a dedicated Earth for the hi-fi via a series of star-wired 6ft Earth rods plunged into the garden.

http://www.a-serious.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/this_thread_is_useless_without_pics.gif :lolsign:

Marco
02-08-2008, 20:03
Aye, it is a wee bit mad, Beechy, but it works!

Marco.

Beechwoods
02-08-2008, 20:05
It's probably visible from Google Earth??! What's your postcode??

Marco
02-08-2008, 22:01
Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo, Oscar Foxtrot Foxtrot ;)

Marco.

gary
02-08-2008, 22:07
:lolsign:

gary
02-08-2008, 22:11
Hi Marco it looks like I am going to get to play with my brothers hifi next weekend too should be fun on topic of cables Alan gave me chord Anthem 2s to use but they are directional and go wrong way, I can change them over but I can't say I have noticed a difference with directional cables even if plugged wrong way round what do you think

Marco
02-08-2008, 22:51
Hi Gary,

They would probably do. However, I've heard differences with cable directionality so if you can try and get a pair marked with the correct directionality that would be great.

Does your brother's CDS3 have a digital out socket? I know that some of the later Naim CDPs have phonos and stuff. If it doesn't then there's not much point me bringing the Sony DAC to compare against it.

The Croft preamp and Yaqin will be coming though :)

Marco.

gary
03-08-2008, 10:08
Hi Marco
The cds3 does not have digital output, Naim do not have digital outs on any of their cd players, it does have phono outputs so opens up the choice of cables as standard phono to phono will do, I should be back in at Alan's some time this week so I can collect proper directional cable, this time I may even have a proper look at it before I leave shop.

I wonder if the digital output situation on naim cd players will change since there is talk that they are going to release their own dac (That may just be speculation) and in light of the HDX player a purely digital source

Marco
03-08-2008, 12:27
No worries, Gary. I wasn't sure so thanks for clarifying that. I could bring up the transport, too, but it's really too much stuff to take all the way up to Scotland. We can do that one another day.

I think you'll find that the valve amp thing will be more than enough to occupy your mind ;)

I'm looking forward to it. Have you squared things with David?

Marco.

gary
03-08-2008, 13:09
Sorted as far as I know David is coming too should be an interesting evening.

Marco
03-08-2008, 14:25
Yep, it's sorted then. Like you say it should be an interesting evening. If you can get hold of your bro's CDS3 that would be cool. It's been a while since I heard one and I'd like to enjoy the experience again :)

Marco.

snapper
03-08-2008, 15:59
:smoking:


Just doing some needledrops for the visit.

And on ma shyte lp11 and a half,no less. :ner:



Looking forward to it.

:cool:

Marco
03-08-2008, 16:33
Shweeeet... :smoking:

Is the 160 settling in nicely?

Marco.

gary
03-08-2008, 16:45
Hi David what are you listening to

snapper
04-08-2008, 08:40
Shweeeet... :smoking:

Is the 160 settling in nicely?

Marco.

It is.

Finally settled on running it through the MM stage of the pre amp.

snapper
04-08-2008, 08:43
Hi David what are you listening to


Loadsa different stuff.

Rock,pop,jazz,blues,folk,ambient,even some classical.

You'll find out in more detail at the weekend.

:lolsign:

Marco
04-08-2008, 08:50
Sounds good. The DL-160 should be nicely run-in now then :)

Btw, I'm going to bring the Denon head amp I've just bought with me to see what it does with your cartridge. We can connect it to the Whest in MM mode. If you like it you can find one on Ebay.

The Tiramisu will be getting prepared soon!

Marco.

snapper
04-08-2008, 09:11
Btw, I'm going to bring the Denon head amp I've just bought with me to see what it does with your cartridge. We can connect it to the Whest in MM mode. If you like it you can find one on Ebay.

The Tiramisu will be getting prepared soon!

Marco.

That's the most important thing,feck the moosic.

:lolsign:

snapper
04-08-2008, 09:45
Sounds good. The DL-160 should be nicely run-in now then :)


Marco.

It's getting there.

After fiddling about,I've settled on 1.4g tracking weight with the arm raised about a mm.

Marco
04-08-2008, 09:50
Nae probs. If you fancy a fiddle try removing the sylus guard (and resetting VTF) - it makes a reasonable improvement.

The only good thing about the stylus guard is that it's useful for adjusting azimuth. Once that's done though you can bin it.

Marco.

snapper
04-08-2008, 10:17
The only good thing about the stylus guard is that it's useful for adjusting azimuth. Once that's done though you can bin it.

Marco.


The stylus guard came off as soon as the cartridge was installed,hate the feckers.

Marco
04-08-2008, 10:32
Good lad :)

It's amazing how close good quality 'budget' MCs like ATs and Denons get to 'hi-end' ones like Akivas, isn't it?

Ok, they don't have the same overall finesse and fine detailing, but that seems to come at a price!

Marco.

snapper
04-08-2008, 11:08
Well you can buy 23 Denon DL160's for the price of ONE Akiva.

:eek:


...and still have some change.

I think I might actually prefer the Denon.

Marco
04-08-2008, 11:55
Yep, it just shows what you're paying for the 'prestige' of the Linn badge!

Your observation above stating a preference for the Denon is quite something (and shocking in a way) considering that your all-Linn set-up (LP12/Ekos/Lingo) is designed to showcase the Akiva's talents to maximum effect...

Marco.

snapper
04-08-2008, 15:18
Yep, it just shows what you're paying for the 'prestige' of the Linn badge!


Marco.


If only Ivor knew. :eyebrows:

Marco
04-08-2008, 16:51
LOL - indeed. 'You' as in 'one'...

God bless Reg ;)

Marco.

snapper
04-08-2008, 17:59
God bless Reg ;)

Marco.


Indeed.

Very much missed.

Marco
06-08-2008, 07:59
Is Stereo Stereo still in business - if so, what's it like these days?

Marco.

snapper
06-08-2008, 08:22
Yes,I'm sure they're still in business,but I've no idea what they are like nowadays.

Last time I was there was about 3 years ago.

I think I'm banned now.

:lolsign:

Marco
06-08-2008, 08:29
LOL. Does it still belong to Webby boy?

L&C's where it's at in Glasgow now.

Marco.

snapper
06-08-2008, 08:33
Does it still belong to Webby boy?


Marco.



Who's Webby boy?

Marco
06-08-2008, 08:42
LOL. Sorry, Gibby (Alan Gibb, I think?) :lol:

Marco.

snapper
06-08-2008, 08:47
No,Alan sold it late 2004 I think.

It was then taken over by 2 T.V. repair men. :confused:


BTW,I take it you're coming for yer dinner?

What would you like?

Marco
06-08-2008, 09:35
Aye, that would be good. Surprise me! :)

I'll bring the plonk.

Marco.

Neil McCauley
06-08-2008, 13:17
In hopefully not a fruitless attempt to drag this thread back on topic, here is a small tale that might be of interest.

As an exhibitor at the march Heathrow show where I demonstrated the Harbeth 40.1 monitors and so on, I took 2 pairs of loudspeaker cables. The names of these will remain anonymous for reasons I’ll come to.

On the Friday night, Alan Shaw (an arch sceptic where anything regarding aftermarket tweaking is concerned) and I set up the system. I used loudspeakers cables “A”. Alan listened and felt there was "something missing" in the sound.

I suggest we changed the loudspeaker cables to set “B”. He laughed. But given that substituting a spare CD player and a spare amp for the incumbent ones only altered the sound without improving it, we were left with no alternative but to substitute the loudspeakers cables.

Now don’t get me wrong. the sound as originally set up was great. But Alan, a consummate professional felt there could be a tad “more” to be had at the extreme top.

The substitute set of cables, set “B” gave Alan what he had hoped for. Job done. Adam Smith (as of yesterday no longer with Hi-Fi World mag but will contribute as a freelance) wrote that I produced the best sound at the show. Anyway ....

Set “B”, the replacement set was literally only 25% of the list price for the original set “A”

The reason for the anonymity is this. Based on the this experience, when I do home demos of Harbeth speakers, I take both sets of loudspeaker cables. The results are unpredictable. Depending on the room acoustics, volume level and of course ancillary equipment, sometimes set “A’ wins and sometimes set “B”.

As both sets are unmarked, the ‘civilian’ can not tell at a glance who makes these sets. And I make absolutely sure they have no idea of the 1:4 price ratio.

The point is this. Anyone who claims that one specific pair of loudspeaker cables will, under any circumstances, consistently and noticeably improve over another pair (less or more expensive) probably lies about other things too.


---//---

Primalsea
06-08-2008, 21:36
Is it me or are speaker cables getting ridiculously thick these days. Whats that all about?? It seems that we've done exotic materials and exotic constructions and the next thing to do is make them BIGGER to show they are better than whats been done before.

Its hard not to run out of some rooms at hifi shows thinking that you have a pair of giant pythons in there with you.

greenhomeelectronics
10-08-2008, 19:57
Interesting and timely thread as I have been experimenting with speaker cables recently. I am a bit of a sceptic but understand the technical reasons why a decent cable will work better than in inferior one. I guess a system only being as good as the weakest link comes in to it. In the past I have had favourable results from using cooker cable - it has the 3 essential components of low resistance, low inductance and low capacitance. Just recently I tried some Chinese cables out - these are monsters. They weigh near on 4 kilos for the 2.5 meter long jobbies, each conductor has just under 450 strands of oxygen free copper. Wife friendly they are not but initial experiments have persuaded me to stock them, they are in my opinion incredible value for money. More info will come in the next couple of weeks when I launch my new web site. Anyway I digress, speaker cables should be reasonably big, especially for long runs as keeping the conductors apart is the only way to get capacitance and inductance to a minimum. The conductors need to have a large cross sectional area to keep the resistance down - the latter becomes more important as the impedance of the load (speaker) decreases.
Dave.

Cotlake
10-08-2008, 21:16
Anyway I digress, speaker cables should be reasonably big, especially for long runs as keeping the conductors apart is the only way to get capacitance and inductance to a minimum. The conductors need to have a large cross sectional area to keep the resistance down - the latter becomes more important as the impedance of the load (speaker) decreases.
Dave.

Why?.....you're evidence and technical arguement is..........? Sweeping claims like this need proper explaination. You're the dealer, give us the facts.

gary
10-08-2008, 21:50
Anyway I digress, speaker cables should be reasonably big, especially for long runs as keeping the conductors apart is the only way to get capacitance and inductance to a minimum. The conductors need to have a large cross sectional area to keep the resistance down - the latter becomes more important as the impedance of the load (speaker) decreases.
Dave.

I am not sure I aggree with this Dave different core construction gives different reactive capacitance results as does using twisted cables. lots of factors to consider from an electronic standpoint but that does not always guarantee a good sound.

lurcher
10-08-2008, 23:04
as keeping the conductors apart is the only way to get capacitance and inductance to a minimum.

Won't spacing the conductors decrease the capacitance, but increase the inductance?

greenhomeelectronics
11-08-2008, 07:31
Hi folks, the point I was trying to make was that speaker cables can and do make a difference because of well known and proven electrical theory. Any cable has a finite amount of resistance, capacitance and inductance. In certain circumstances these characteristics will have an effect on the sound we hear. Sometimes that will be good, sometimes that will be bad, the same way 10 grands worth of speakers can sound awful if installed carelessly in the wrong environment. As a general rule of thumb the larger the cable the better the cable conducts which has to be a good thing.
Lurcher you are quite right, last time I post after a few beers :-)
Some say twisted cables are best as any induction should be cancelled out, a technique used in telephony since day 1. I am a bit sceptical about this in the audio world as I have yet to personally experience any difference between twisted and straight cables. I am going to be messing about a bit more though and that's one of the things I want to try.
Greg, I'll come back to this as and when time allows, busy setting up a new web site at the moment.
Dave.