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doodoos
12-06-2008, 05:21
The question reflects my ears telling me that my little ol' hi fi sounds more dynamic, detailed and with more accessible low level information when the sun is shining ie at average room temps. around 20-25c. Could this be the drivers wobbling more freely when warmer?. Or is it the feelgood factor?

Prince of Darkness
12-06-2008, 06:49
Could be a bit of both, also the quality of the electric mains supply varies with the time of day.:)

BajaGringo
12-06-2008, 19:29
As it gets warmer, water expands. That includes inside your body so I think it is the additional pressure asserted against the inside of our skulls. Which in turn makes this old Gringo's tainted hearing even worse as well.

As I recall from physics studies in the prior mid-century, sound waves travel faster in warmer air, correct?

The Grand Wazoo
17-07-2011, 23:13
From The Grave

The Grand Wazoo
17-07-2011, 23:13
Starter for ten:

Maybe there's more to consider here than brain waves and electricity supply. For example, how about the conflicting needs of cartridges and speakers for optimum temperature? Or what working in a hot room might do to an amplifier having to work extra hard to keep cool.....stuff like that?

bogle111
18-07-2011, 00:43
Starter for ten:

Maybe there's more to consider here than brain waves and electricity supply. For example, how about the conflicting needs of cartridges and speakers for optimum temperature? Or what working in a hot room might do to an amplifier having to work extra hard to keep cool.....stuff like that?

Yes, agree. You can leave your system on for hours, but if the room is colder than normal, it will sound "brighter" and unbalanced compared to a warm atmosphere.

Someone once tried to convince me that "air pressure" had something to do with it:steam:

Haselsh1
18-07-2011, 11:49
This definitely affects vinyl replay as the elasticity of the stylus mount varies with temperature as do most elastic substances. So it follows that the mount is more pliable in warmer conditions and that the sound should therefore be a lot smoother. I know this is the case from my own experiences.

DSJR
18-07-2011, 14:41
Some elastomers aren't affected by temperature and humidity, but I can think of many cartridges that are hugely temperature dependant.

Rubber SPEAKER SURROUNDS also are hugely dependant on temp changes, their whole characteristic changing hugely in sonics AND measurement over say, a 10 degree change.

...And this is long before we consider how we feel, the humidity around and about and mains quality differences...

After a few beers, or summat stronger, all the above doesn't matter a toss because everything sounds better :D

REXTON
18-07-2011, 16:42
this is an interesting topic, my system seems to improve when I have the heating on in my listening room, why, I have no idea, but I would like to find out ;)

The Grand Wazoo
18-07-2011, 17:03
So what about things like electrostatics which have a stretched membrane? - presumably this will vary in tension at different temperatures. Which is better - hot or cold?

REXTON
18-07-2011, 18:46
So what about things like electrostatics which have a stretched membrane? - presumably this will vary in tension at different temperatures. Which is better - hot or cold?



OOOOHHH!!!! That could be a cool experiment to try out, I just got some ESL 57's. I'm still getting used to there "sound" so i wouldn't know if they sounded better or not. I do have some active loud speakers ATC 50 ASL's and these seem to get more coherent soundstage in a warmer room, any explanation ?:scratch:

electric beach
18-07-2011, 20:22
I like and have a quite 'live' room but when I get a few bodies in for an evening, the system often seems to lose it's lively dynamics and sounds like the room is more deadened. I never know whether to put it down to the added physical presence but more likely it's the increase in temperature.

Don't know the cause but I recognise the effect :doh:

DSJR
18-07-2011, 21:17
More people (usually) means more reflection damping and a loss in treble quite often I think.

Hotter ATC's sounding better? Those cones-n-domes are so very heavily damped I'm not surprised if a warmer room got them moving a bit better. The onboard amps don't seem too fussy though once the initial few minutes is passed I found, althoigh mine were sensitive to mains issues I thought.

bogle111
18-07-2011, 22:17
We used to sell ESL's and the rule was, you never EVER demoed them in the morning (winters cold day) - wait till the room warmed up. They can sound very thin and reedy when it is cold.

The Grand Wazoo
18-07-2011, 22:23
We used to sell ESL's and the rule was, you never EVER demoed them in the morning (winters cold day) - wait till the room warmed up. They can sound very thin and reedy when it is cold.

That's interesting, as I had assumed that they might be better when cold. I haven't a clue how or why I came to that conclusion, but there ya go!

I used to have a Naim CDI which sometimes took up to ten minutes or so of pushing the button to go into play mode on a cold day, even though it was switched on 24 hrs a day.

electric beach
19-07-2011, 11:56
Even when all components are left on permanently, I still find it takes actually playing 4-5 tracks to come on song. Why is this? Speakers stretching awake? Capacitors charging? :scratch: Room warming up from my cerebral solar panel? :lol:

REXTON
19-07-2011, 19:08
I think this is a topic that could rumble on forever and never get a conclusive answer. I've found that my system has sounded at its best on cold winters nights when the central heating has been on. I have no idea why!!

nat8808
21-07-2011, 16:09
high pressure (colder nights with no cloud cover in high pressure), warm temps and dry air from your heating system. These could all be factors.

nat8808
21-07-2011, 16:11
So what about things like electrostatics which have a stretched membrane? - presumably this will vary in tension at different temperatures. Which is better - hot or cold?

The tension for which they were designed!

I guess they are all tested at some point during manufacture so will depend at what temp they were tested at.. In a cold climate, you'll probably find the building is over heated and it's fairly warm in the factory/R&D place and vice versa in a hot country..

nat8808
21-07-2011, 16:17
Someone once tried to convince me that "air pressure" had something to do with it:steam:

No such a strange idea..

All things that change the speed of sound in your room will effect both your speakers (driver's Q and resonance and speaker box resonance and port tunings) AND the room (your room's resonance and frequency response).

By how much, I don't know.... have to do the maths and physics to see if its significant.

Humidity, pressure, temperature are all interlinked and effect the speed of sound and hence ALL frequency responses be they reflections, resonances etc etc

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 16:19
The question reflects my ears telling me that my little ol' hi fi sounds more dynamic, detailed and with more accessible low level information when the sun is shining ie at average room temps. around 20-25c. Could this be the drivers wobbling more freely when warmer?. Or is it the feelgood factor?

Transducers react to temperature, mostly cartridges and to a lesser extent speakers. Electronics doesn't react to ambient temperature, but to internal (component) temperature.

The thing that changes how we perceive music is humidity. Sounds silly but very dry humidity creates a dry sound.

nat8808
21-07-2011, 16:20
Even when all components are left on permanently, I still find it takes actually playing 4-5 tracks to come on song. Why is this? Speakers stretching awake? Capacitors charging? :scratch: Room warming up from my cerebral solar panel? :lol:

Time it takes you to forget your stresses and actually pay attention to your ears?

It's surprising how much say the soundstage can expand simply by concentrating in the right way!

I, ahem... have found certain substances expand the soundstage and add detail greatly.. I try to do it through self-awareness, concentration and de-stressing these days.

nat8808
21-07-2011, 16:23
Transducers react to temperature, mostly cartridges and to a lesser extent speakers. Electronics doesn't react to ambient temperature, but to internal (component) temperature.

The thing that changes how we perceive music is humidity. Sounds silly but very dry humidity creates a dry sound.

What is 'dry' in frequency terms? More from the upper mid and treble?

That would make sense in terms of more mass in the air in the form of water and that needing more energy to move and therefore fequency roll-off.

Sound about right? I'm kind of educated guessing.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 16:24
So what about things like electrostatics which have a stretched membrane? - presumably this will vary in tension at different temperatures. Which is better - hot or cold?

If you want you electrostatics to really sing then get a rose spray and put it on the tightest / finest settings and spray around the front and back, obviously with water, enough to dampen not to saturate. The difference is astonishing especially on a dry day.

Quad ESL 57s really respond to this.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 16:25
What is 'dry' in frequency terms? More from the upper mid and treble?

That would make sense in terms of more mass in the air in the form of water and that needing more energy to move and therefore fequency roll-off.

Sound about right? I'm kind of educated guessing.

I don't bloody care, I just know it because I hear it.

nat8808
21-07-2011, 16:28
I like and have a quite 'live' room but when I get a few bodies in for an evening, the system often seems to lose it's lively dynamics and sounds like the room is more deadened. I never know whether to put it down to the added physical presence but more likely it's the increase in temperature.

Don't know the cause but I recognise the effect :doh:

More reflections are reaching you in an empty room - more of the sound's power reaching you and probably small echos too that add to the livelyness.

Stick people in and they absorb sound, especially in the treble area, and break up reflections.

Certainly a sound engineer in a theatre or venue will boost certain frequencies when sound checking in anticipation of a crowd coming in and ruining all his good work. Sit in an auditorium on your own and it's all a bit 'in you're face' compared to the performance with the crowd in.

nat8808
21-07-2011, 16:30
If you want you electrostatics to really sing then get a rose spray and put it on the tightest / finest settings and spray around the front and back, obviously with water, enough to dampen not to saturate. The difference is astonishing especially on a dry day.

Quad ESL 57s really respond to this.

I like the idea of Dayton Wright's sealed units in a special gas (primarily to keep arching down).

I'll try this..

nat8808
21-07-2011, 16:35
What is 'dry' in frequency terms? More from the upper mid and treble?

That would make sense in terms of more mass in the air in the form of water and that needing more energy to move and therefore fequency roll-off.

Sound about right? I'm kind of educated guessing.


I don't bloody care, I just know it because I hear it.

Err... that's a bit strong isn't it? Or was it humour? (really need to get those smileys out if it was).

In my case, I find science and working out what is going on quite interesting. To know would also help keep more of constant sound quality going on by changing room treatment perhaps.

And besides, I thought people posting on the thread wanted to try to understand what was going on - else it could be dismissed as just word association effecting hearing.. placebo perhaps, which I don't think it is.

Welder
21-07-2011, 16:41
Richard wrote;

“Electronics doesn't react to ambient temperature, but to internal (component)” temperature.”

You don’t really mean this do you Richard?

nat8808
21-07-2011, 16:44
Richard wrote;

“Electronics doesn't react to ambient temperature, but to internal (component)” temperature.”

You don’t really mean this do you Richard?

I understood that to mean that it's the component temperature that effects what the electronics does and not the temperature in the room.

Of course, eventually the room temp MAY get the component temp to change but not as much as the heating effect of the electricity running through them..

Room temp could mean that something that needs to be cooled wont cool as much as was designed but that's about all (I guess).

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 16:54
Err... that's a bit strong isn't it? Or was it humour? (really need to get those smileys out if it was).


Rye humour - there isn't an emoticon for it.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 16:56
I understood that to mean that it's the component temperature that effects what the electronics does and not the temperature in the room.

Of course, eventually the room temp MAY get the component temp to change but not as much as the heating effect of the electricity running through them..

Room temp could mean that something that needs to be cooled wont cool as much as was designed but that's about all (I guess).

Exactly, an obvious interpretation, unless someone is looking for pedantic angles.

Marco
21-07-2011, 16:59
Rye humour - there isn't an emoticon for it.


Rye humour? It's wot you gots when you comes from Rye, innit?

http://www.visitrye.co.uk/

;)

Marco.

Welder
21-07-2011, 16:59
Oh well, there goes the second law of thermodynamics then. ;)

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 17:06
Oh well, there goes the second law of thermodynamics then. ;)

Look at the title of the thread.

nat8808
21-07-2011, 17:12
Rye humour? It's wot you gots when you comes from Rye, innit?

http://www.visitrye.co.uk/

;)

Marco.

It's what you need if you spend too long there.. (I once had to sleep in my car for 12 hours in the train station car park after a panic attack trying to drive home from a nearby festival - at Pontins, ATP - after 2 hours sleep and too much err festival type stuff).

nat8808
21-07-2011, 17:17
Oh well, there goes the second law of thermodynamics then. ;)

Can I be a pedant?

"The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the tendency that over time, differences in temperature, pressure, and chemical potential equilibrate in an isolated physical system."

For it to be isolated you'll have to turn it all off - disconnect that external influx of energy into the system and room via the mains.

THEN, yes, the room and turned-off hifi will tend towards an equilibrium but you'll not be hearing much! :)

Welder
21-07-2011, 17:22
Pedantic: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pedantic

Accurate: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/accurate

“Electronics doesn't react to ambient temperature, but to internal (component)” temperature.”

Yep, read the title :)

nat8808
21-07-2011, 17:23
Exactly, an obvious interpretation, unless someone is looking for pedantic angles.

unfortunately I did have to read it twice and take into account that you do tend to know about these things! So interpetted it thus-ly.. Hope you don't mind me saying that - wanted to be a bit fairer on Welder.

nat8808
21-07-2011, 17:27
Pedantic: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pedantic

Accurate: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/accurate

“Electronics doesn't react to ambient temperature, but to internal (component)” temperature.”

Yep, read the title :)

I knew what he meant.

And it's surely more the case that the equipment that will be having a larger effect on the local room temperature than the room ambient temp having effect on the equipment temp?

It's a matter of degree that means electronics in hi-fi terms is most likely to not react to room temp but to temperatures generated by the equipment itself.

Unless you literally have your system set up in an industrial oven?

To be honest, it does look like an attempt to start an argument.. We've established what Richard was getting at but you're ignoring it.

nat8808
21-07-2011, 17:32
SO! To re-cap and move on..

Is it speed of sound effecting room / speaker response or is it compliance of driver surrounds or needle suspension or all of the above?

Can anyone work out (I'm too lazy and would have to look it all up) how much resonant frequencies would change with temperature in a room?

Marco
21-07-2011, 18:05
Guys, please refrain from insulting each other (I'm referring here to Richard and John). I won't ask again ;)

Marco.

REXTON
21-07-2011, 19:02
bloody hell this has got all technical! I'm all for finding out how my system works but this debate is a bit cerebral, i've had a long day! :lol::lol:

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
22-07-2011, 08:06
SO! To re-cap and move on..

Is it speed of sound effecting room / speaker response or is it compliance of driver surrounds or needle suspension or all of the above?

Can anyone work out (I'm too lazy and would have to look it all up) how much resonant frequencies would change with temperature in a room?

The problem for me is we are looking at how differing conditions like humidity and temperature are effecting how sound is transmitted, it could be more how sound is received, or how it passes through the medium it travels in - air.

Though I think it is a given fact that temp effects a TT cartridge compliance, and I think humidity effects the stylus and the groove. Humidity definitely effects electrostatic speakers but I am not so sure it does with cone speakers, where as temperature might.

A whole new area to explore for the likes of Russ Andrews to come up with product, like audiophile rose sprays for £200 with special (Hi-Fi Holy) water for £10 a bottle. :mental:

Marco
22-07-2011, 08:25
I'm not sure how relevant this is to the discussion, but any speakers I've used always sound better after a good thrashing with some loud music (generally about an hour's worth), where they then open up and really start to rock! :fingers: :hairmetal:

Also, I've always noticed systems to sound brighter and more 'in yer face' in cold rooms, and conversely, in warm rooms, sound rather 'phat' and bloated.... And no, I don't think that this is a coincidence ;)

Marco.

electric beach
22-07-2011, 09:07
I'm not sure how relevant this is to the discussion, but any speakers I've used always sound better after a good thrashing with some loud music (generally about an hour's worth), where they then open up and really start to rock! :fingers: :hairmetal:

Also, I've always noticed systems to sound brighter and more 'in yer face' in cold rooms, and conversely, in warm rooms, sound rather 'phat' and bloated.... And no, I don't think that this is a coincidence ;)

Marco.

Marco, why am I not surprised to hear that you find a good thrashing to be preferable accompanied by some loud music! :whippin: :lol:

Numbing your eardrums most likely :punch:


Bet you've got one of those new fangled loudness buttons and haven't told us.

nat8808
22-07-2011, 13:25
The problem for me is we are looking at how differing conditions like humidity and temperature are effecting how sound is transmitted, it could be more how sound is received, or how it passes through the medium it travels in - air.

Though I think it is a given fact that temp effects a TT cartridge compliance, and I think humidity effects the stylus and the groove. Humidity definitely effects electrostatic speakers but I am not so sure it does with cone speakers, where as temperature might.

A whole new area to explore for the likes of Russ Andrews to come up with product, like audiophile rose sprays for £200 with special (Hi-Fi Holy) water for £10 a bottle. :mental:

Compliance of our ear drums - how about that?

Blood circulation around the hearing parts?

I always go for a 2 mile run before listening. :lol:

nat8808
22-07-2011, 13:27
I've always thought there are far far too many variables to listening to ever be able to say with certainty that subtle differences in sound perception are ever associated with one particular thing or another..

People tend to concentrate on what it is they are changing e.g. a power cable and not keeping a check on anything else that may be effecting the WHOLE system, including ears.

REXTON
22-07-2011, 13:34
Heres an interesting side effect of having too much crap in your listening room. I have just taken delivery of some very nice Quad ESL 57's, they stand at the moment at the side of my ATC 50ASL's, I've noticed that soundstage has become a little more initimate but at the same time I'm noticing that instruments appear to be playing to the side of the ATC's as if the soundstage extends beyond the sides of the speakers and is restricted by the sides of the walls. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that !! :scratch::scratch:

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
22-07-2011, 13:37
When you system is on song you don't have speakers, they cease to exist apart from you can see them. Or you go up and stick your ear to them.

Welder
22-07-2011, 14:48
Wouldn’t any non driven speakers be affected by the pressure waves generated by the driven set; a bit like passive radiators? :scratch:

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
22-07-2011, 21:49
Wouldn’t any non driven speakers be affected by the pressure waves generated by the driven set; a bit like passive radiators? :scratch:

No there would have to be an air pressure coupling between the two drivers for it to act as a passive radiator. In this case the coupling is a room full of air so the pressure wave hitting the passive driver would be minute, and anyway it would only mainly *sound* at its resonant frequency because it is not being driven.

Linn tried to sell everyone on this malarky back in the 80's, but in this case it was marketing as it meant the only speakers set up in the dem room were Linn, as it was too much hassle to bring others in and out. One more pair of speaker should make such a small difference as to be inaudible. What made a difference was a long shelf with loads of speakers on them and a row of them on the ground below them in the bad old days of speaker comparators switch boxes and a dem room with dozens of speakers in it - then it became audible.

Welder
23-07-2011, 10:56
I’ll take it here that what you meant to write Richard was;

yes, because there is an air pressure coupling between the driven and passive units, the passive units will vibrate at its resonant frequency. But, in your opinion because of the weakness of this air pressure coupling the resulting wave interference is unlikely to be audible in all but the most extreme circumstances.

In which case, my response is, in general I agree with you but in some experiments we carried out many years ago using a 15” coned passive driver with high compliance suspension, a laser to detect movement and a pair of driven Volt B250’s we got some interesting wave interference.

I think whether or not such effects are audible will depend largely on the intensity of the original signal, the size of the room, the specification of the passive unit and the position of the passive unit relative to the driven one.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-07-2011, 10:57
I’ll take it here that what you meant to write Richard was;

yes, because there is an air pressure coupling between the driven and passive units, the passive units will vibrate at its resonant frequency. But, in your opinion because of the weakness of this air pressure coupling the resulting wave interference is unlikely to be audible in all but the most extreme circumstances.

In which case, my response is, in general I agree with you but in some experiments we carried out many years ago using a 15” coned passive driver with high compliance suspension, a laser to detect movement and a pair of driven Volt B250’s we got some interesting wave interference.

I think whether or not such effects are audible will depend largely on the intensity of the original signal, the size of the room, the specification of the passive unit and the position of the passive unit relative to the driven one.

Why do you find it necessary to re-write my posts, do I do it to you - no! I wrote and meant what I wrote.

REXTON
23-07-2011, 10:59
Handbags gentleman!

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-07-2011, 11:41
Handbags gentleman!

Would you put up with your posts being re-written?

DSJR
23-07-2011, 13:51
In this case, and from personal experience, Richard is absolutely correct here.

When my penultimate retail employer decided to put all the audio into one room, together with all the "Beoshelving system" to hold it all, we found the shelving helped one pair to sound better, due to broken up reflections (I think), a second and even a third pair of speakers added could just about be tolerated if the main speakers being listened to were brought forward in front of the others. Once around ten pairs of mixed-size speakers were in the dem room, once you got to approx £500 the pair on speakers, anything with any pretense to being better didn't sound any better at all, whereas before, the extra subtlety in these more expensive models was heard clearly.

for right or wrong, if a client didn't know what to buy, we'd use the downstairs comparator and speaker collection to get a rough idea, followed up by a proper "single-speaker" dem in the dem room and this worked well for us. In my final retail assignment, I just humped each pair in and out, one after the other, big floor-standers and all :eek:

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-07-2011, 08:55
In this case, and from personal experience, Richard is absolutely correct here.

When my penultimate retail employer decided to put all the audio into one room, together with all the "Beoshelving system" to hold it all, we found the shelving helped one pair to sound better, due to broken up reflections (I think), a second and even a third pair of speakers added could just about be tolerated if the main speakers being listened to were brought forward in front of the others. Once around ten pairs of mixed-size speakers were in the dem room, once you got to approx £500 the pair on speakers, anything with any pretense to being better didn't sound any better at all, whereas before, the extra subtlety in these more expensive models was heard clearly.

for right or wrong, if a client didn't know what to buy, we'd use the downstairs comparator and speaker collection to get a rough idea, followed up by a proper "single-speaker" dem in the dem room and this worked well for us. In my final retail assignment, I just humped each pair in and out, one after the other, big floor-standers and all :eek:

There were lots of these marketing angles created that were managed to be sold as hi-fi necessities and promoted by the "on story" retailers and magazines and reviewers, like the single speaker environment. Of course "source first" was the big one.

The one that makes me laugh (sarcastically) the most is top down aspirational selling - the customer goes into the shop for a £1000 system, he is first taken into the inner sanctum dem room almost like it is a chapel, and he listens to £30k active system, and then suitably mind controlled he is then allowed (in the 2nd class dem room) to listen to his price area as he now has the bench mark to judge it by. So when he gets older and richer, if the mind control sticks, the £30k system is what he aspires to.

Very clever marketing but by that time the company involved had lost some control over its dealer base and not so many were willing to do it.

Can you imagine going into a car showroom to buy a mini and being told to test drive a Aston or Jag so he can better judge how good the mini is :mental:

Macca
24-07-2011, 10:28
The one that makes me laugh (sarcastically) the most is top down aspirational selling - the customer goes into the shop for a £1000 system, he is first taken into the inner sanctum dem room almost like it is a chapel, and he listens to £30k active system, and then suitably mind controlled he is then allowed (in the 2nd class dem room) to listen to his price area as he now has the bench mark to judge it by. So when he gets older and richer, if the mind control sticks, the £30k system is what he aspires to.



I wonder if it ever happened that people preferred the cheaper system?

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-07-2011, 11:22
I wonder if it ever happened that people preferred the cheaper system?

Well when I brought this up before (on Subjectivist) people replied just that.

sq225917
24-07-2011, 14:43
There's nothing 'clever' about letting people 'taste' product that is out of their current price range, it's just common sense if you sell in vertical markets.