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View Full Version : A battle of D/Ds: Heavily-modified SL-1210 vs. Kenwood L-07D and Nakamichi TX-1000.



Marco
02-07-2010, 18:22
When building our systems we can sometimes delude ourselves and allow our natural bias towards the equipment we use to cloud our judgement of how good it actually is in comparison to what else is available.

Therefore, to counteract that effect, periodically, I like to test my gear against other high-quality kit, particularly when I suspect that it’s likely to be a little better than mine, as this improves the quality of my existing benchmark and also makes me raise the game further in terms of improving the components I use (should I consider it necessary), which of course in turn benefits my system as a whole: a win-win situation, in my book.

With that in mind, I made a return trip to Dave Anderton’s place, who posts here as 'dandy', after having visited him in Chester a few weeks back and been very impressed with his system; in particular his Kenwood L-07D direct-drive turntable. This is a superbly engineered 'no compromise' vintage turntable with a justified enviable reputation, which I rate as one of the best T/T’s I’ve so far had the pleasure to listen to. Therefore, me being me, I just had to see how close my modified Techie would get to it!

To recap (as I’ve already mentioned it elsewhere) Dave’s system is as follows:

Turntables: Kenwood L-07D/ Linn Troika. Also, Nakamichi TX-1000/SME 312S/ZYX Airy 3

Phono stage: ASR Basis Exclusive (battery-operated)

Network streamer: Linn Klimax DS

Preamp: Music First Audio - Reference

Active crossovers: 2 x Pass Labs XVR-1

Power amps: 2 x Meridian 559 (stereo), 2 x Albarry M408 (mono)

Speakers: Naim DBLs (on Mana sound stage)

Racks: Naim Fraim

Also PS Audio Powerplant Premier mains regenerator.

Cables: various, including Nordost Valhalla.


Equipment I brought with me:


Technics SL-1210 MK5G turntable with Sound Hi-fi mat and Isonoe support feet/Paul Hynes SR3 external PSU, powered by a Furutech-modified Mark Grant DSP 2.5 mains lead/Jelco SA-750D, with heavy counterweight balance/standard Denon DL-103 fitted in an Ortofon LH-9000 headshell, wired with Ortofon LW1000S 'super high purity' silver cartridge leads/A23 MC step-up transformer, and an Ortofon SPU Classic GM MKII MC cartridge.

Music used (amongst others): John Lee Hooker - 'Mr Lucky' and 'Stripped Me Naked' from the album 'Mr Lucky'. Hafdis Huld - 'Fucked up Mind' (7” single), taken from her superb award-winning album 'Dirty Paper Cup'.

'Chuck Es in Love' - Ricky Lee Jones, from her self-titled debut album, and The Robert Cray Band: 'Sonny' and 'False Accusations', from the album 'False Accusations'.

The first thing we did was to listen to both the Kenwood and Nakamichi, which Dave had already set-up side-by-side on his Naim Fraim racks, so Hafdis Huld’s 'Fucked up Mind' was cued-up on the Kenwood (you can listen to a sample of the track here: http://www.amazon.com/Dirty-Paper-Cup-Hafdis-Huld/dp/B000I0SGPS) and we sat back, mugs of freshly-brewed tea in hand, and listened…

Dave’s system is undoubtedly one of the finest I’ve heard in terms of its ability to access the minutiae of subtle nuances and temporal shifts within music, thus ensuring that the artist's 'message', if there is one, is successfully communicated. Effects such as this allow music to 'breathe', and this is where the best systems are able to portray a much more convincing illusion that one is listening to real music, as opposed to merely a recording of such.

His system does this so well, equipment and speakers aside, mainly because it has such a vanishingly low noise-floor, in no small part due his attention to detail in terms of set-up, and in particular the way the PS Audio mains regenerator removes any trace of 'grunge' from the mains supply. This combines with the effect of the battery powered ASR Basis Exclusive phono stage to create a deathly quiet backdrop, stripping recordings bare for inspection, so one is left with the blackest of black backgrounds from which voices and instruments emerge with a rather disarming crystalline clarity.

On 'Fucked up Mind', Hafdis Huld’s voice has a stark, rather haunting quality, but is also charmingly melodic, and this was explicitly captured by the L-07D/Troika combination, allowing subtle inflections in her voice full reign, making for a truly enchanting and captivating rendition of this simple but beautiful piece of music; the ghostly quiet background and rock-solid imaging of Dave’s system adding to her atmospheric vocals, ensuring that the track was rendered as realistic and believable.

One thing I love about high-quality direct-drive turntables (and idlers, too) is their ability to hold music in an almost vice-like grip, I suspect due to their superbly accurate speed stability, without the wavering of the pitch of notes I often hear with belt-drive T/Ts (particularly those of the low to medium-mass variety), and their, certainly subjectively, very low levels of coloration. This in my experience showcases music in all its glory, with seemingly little influence from any inherent sonic signature of the drive system and associated internal mechanisms - and in turn providing a near sonically neutral platform for the tonearm and cartridge to reproduce recorded information on vinyl as accurately as possible.

The Kenwood achieves this with consummate ease and thus exhibits the calmest assuredness I’ve heard from any turntable, easily in this respect trumping the SP10s I’ve experienced to date - and it comes with its own (rather good) tonearm and housed in a top-notch plinth, too! The L-07D is extremely heavy and massively over-engineered in every conceivable way, and this I’m sure is largely responsible for the particular way it sounds. Here is a picture of the beast in question:

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9677/l07d.jpg (http://img194.imageshack.us/i/l07d.jpg/)

More detailed information in terms of its construction is on this website: http://www.l-07d.com/

In my opinion, when it comes to turntable design, there is no substitute for solid engineering principles, as turntables are largely mechanical devices, and so the Kenwood epitomises the benefits of this design philosophy, and indeed, encapsulates and maximises it in quite spectacular fashion, at the same time retaining an elegance which belies its 'hewn from stone', almost industrial, aesthetics. In terms of its sonic qualities, the Kenwood’s superb engineering is showcased in the way it handles music with unflustered aplomb, and with it an addictiveness which makes one simply want to listen to music all day long - and then some more….

So after enjoying the Kenwood immensely listening to the Hafdis Huld track, Dave transferred the record to the Nakamichi TX-1000, shown here:

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2568/tx1000h.jpg (http://img24.imageshack.us/i/tx1000h.jpg/)

To be continued...... ;)

Marco.

Mike
02-07-2010, 18:24
Bloody hell! :stalks:

He's finally done it! :clap:

Erm.... I'll read it later. :lol:

Marco
02-07-2010, 18:25
It's not finished yet, ya daftee - but it will be! :lol:

Marco.

John
02-07-2010, 18:38
great start build up the anticipation hahaha

Mike
02-07-2010, 18:38
It's not finished yet, ya daftee - but it will be! :lol:

Marco.

I gathered that, yer muppet.... but at least you've done something! :ner:

DSJR
02-07-2010, 18:46
Do be aware that "calm assuredness" will definitely translate as boring and slowwwwwww *in an incorrectly matched system.* One reason Dave W wants to hear it again thirty years down the line (I'm saying it for him in case he misses this.....)

[edit] - 30 years ago (around 1979 - 1982) we almost all had systems and philosophies based solely around the LP12 of the period and not listening to high quality neutral (ish) setups was discouraged (Quad, Rogers, Spendor etc..), let alone some of the better US models (and some of these work really well in UK rooms).

Marco
02-07-2010, 18:50
I gathered that, yer muppet.... but at least you've done something!


Lol - I always had done something, but I was going to wait until I'd finished the review before posting it, but with all the moaning and groaning going on by folk, like big girls, I had to show some of it! :rolleyes:

I then chose an appropriate cut-off point to keep you all waiting for more ;)

And that won't come until next week sometime, as we've got friends coming this weekend and on Monday - so..... BE PATIENT! :ner:

Marco.

Marco
02-07-2010, 18:56
Do be aware that "calm assuredness" will definitely translate as boring and slowwwwwww in an incorrectly matched system

You need to read the context properly, Dave, and the rest of my comments in relation to the Kenwood, without focussing on certain phraseology in isolation........! :doh:

I can assure you that the L-07D sounded FAR from "boring and slowwwwwww" in Dave's system - the complete opposite, in fact!! :eek:

It might've done, though, in an incorrectly matched system from 20 or 30 years ago! ;)

Marco.

DSJR
02-07-2010, 19:16
You mis-understand me Marco. I meant *in an incorrectly matched system!!!* :)

Dave obviously doesn't have such a system. I'll edit my post above in an attempt to avoid further misunderstandings :lolsign:

Marco
02-07-2010, 19:44
My apologies, Dave - nice edit:


[edit] - 30 years ago (around 1979 - 1982) we almost all had systems and philosophies based solely around the LP12 of the period and not listening to high quality neutral (ish) setups was discouraged (Quad, Rogers, Spendor etc..), let alone some of the better US models (and some of these work really well in UK rooms).


Indeed. In those days, systems were artificially tailored to produce a certain 'sound' (to suit the hopelessly coloured LP12s of the day), which seemed far from being sonically neutral and/or faithful to what was actually recorded on the vinyl itself.

Slotting an L-07D into systems expecting to 'see' the euphonic and syrupy bloat of the (then) LP12 would result in, as you say, a rather 'sober' and boring presentation, and so a complete sonic mismatch! :doh:

It's that type of sound (the former) that I utterly detest with vinyl replay (so how then would I seek it from an SPU? Think about that Dave!! ;)), although I fully realise that the best of today's LP12s sound very little like that. However, some low and medium-mass B/Ds I've heard from other manufacturers still have that type of sonic signature.

It's not an effect I seek from vinyl at all, or indeed have in my system from any component.

Marco.

DSJR
02-07-2010, 19:55
The PT's never sounded syrupy as I recall and the LPT *could* sound spiteful in the wrong hands... Actually, I don't think the Roksan Xerxes did either and this deck caused headaches in some quarters.

The Techie of mine has much to commend it and a further upgrade path by way of isolation, but the Supex misssssstracks sometimes and I now I have the TD125 finally up and running upstairs in the "office/workshop" and will be boring you all with that over the weekend I suspect :oops:

As for cartridges, maybe I just want a squeakly clean treble and a taut lean bass (the Spendors don't and can't "do" meaty bass anyway)

Techno Commander
02-07-2010, 20:47
I then chose an appropriate cut-off point to keep you all waiting for more ;)

Marco.

You git!!:ner:

I was looking forward to hearing how the Nak sounded. Although, it was already winning on looks alone.

Spectral Morn
02-07-2010, 21:01
Nice so far however imho what would enhance the review is photos of the event and actual system.....

Marco get yourself a digital camera....its not like you can't afford one :sofa:

I suppose I shouldn't complain too much as he has actually started to publish the long promised review ;)


Regards D S D L

Marco
02-07-2010, 21:02
Hi Dave,


As for cartridges, maybe I just want a squeakly clean treble and a taut lean bass.


That's fine if that's what you want.

The SPU, when optimised in the right system, though, doesn't have a pronounced signature - it just simply sounds 'right', as close as possible to that of real music :)

It certainly lends voices and instruments the requisite body and texture to sound realistic, which IMO the vast majority of modern designs (in comparison) strip from the sound to give reproduced music an, anaemic, rather 'bleached' quality. However, I don't see the former as coloration - quite the opposite in fact, as for me, one sound (the former) is natural, and the other artificial.

Of course that opinion is entirely subjective, but it's one based on extensive experience of hearing all sorts of live music in a variety of venues, amplified and un-amplified, over many years.

Cartridges such as SPUs, DL-103s and M3Ds are largely deemed as 'fruity' or 'romantic' because over the last 20-odd years our ears have become accustomed to a sound from hi-fi equipment (and I'm not just talking about cartridges - I hear it in speakers, amps and source equipment, too) that is, IMO, artificial and bears little resemblance to how real voices and instruments actually sound. And therefore we consider anything which has a richer tone than what our ears have been accustomed to as being 'wrong'.

Often, in many areas of life, things that are different to what we are most used to, and which don't conform to our accepted wisdom, are considered as 'wrong' - and aspects of our interest in audio are no exception. It's human nature to rally against that which is deemed as different to 'the norm', simply because we are creatures of habit and stubbornly cling onto our deeply-ingrained beliefs. And I'm convinced that this is the case with, for example, the sonic presentation of current cartridges and (the best) vintage ones.

It's rather like someone's palate after years of being accustomed to tasting intensively produced 'battery farm' chicken then being introduced to an organic free-range one, and thus for the first time sampling what chicken really tastes like.... All of a sudden there is FLAVOUR instead of bland artificiality!

It's rather like that with the best vintage cartridges vs. most modern varieties (and much of today's hi-fi equipment in general)...... I trust you can appreciate the analogy.

IMO, a lot of equipment today is deliberately voiced by manufacturers to sound 'squeaky clean' and/or falsely 'exciting/impressive' to comply with what is considered as the commercially acceptable 'modern sound', rather than what is actually faithful to the real sound of voices and instruments in music.

And so the SPU is the tasty 'organic free-range chicken' in a cartridge world full of rather bland and flavourless, artificially produced, chicken nuggets! ;)

Marco.

Marco
02-07-2010, 21:27
Hi Neil,


Marco get yourself a digital camera....its not like you can't afford one :sofa:


Point taken, and I completely agree, but the brutal truth is I'd never use it, as I'm not a picture-taking person, and neither is Del - I mean, we go on holidays and don't take one single picture! I've got a pretty decent camera on my mobile phone and I never use that, so why would another one be any different? ;)

Don't get me wrong, I very much admire other people's photography skills (and Del did it as part of her art degree) but I just can't be arsed taking any myself - and then getting involved in the ball-ache (for me) of getting it from the camera onto my computer.

Also, bear in mind that I hadn't planned to write a review of my experiences at Dave's (it was initially just a music sesh between two friends) - but that's how it transpired, as what I experienced there was for me so significant that I had simply to share it... And I knew others would be interested, too :)

Marco.

Alex_UK
02-07-2010, 21:44
Nice one - thanks Marco, serialisation is a good idea, but don't get any notions of leaving us hanging at the end of Season 1 for too long... please! ;)

Stratmangler
02-07-2010, 21:44
I've got a pretty decent camera on my mobile phone and I never use that, so why would another one be any different? ;)

How do you know it's a pretty decent camera if you haven't used it ?

Joe
02-07-2010, 21:50
How do you know it's a pretty decent camera if you haven't used it ?

It was made by Technics.

Marco
02-07-2010, 21:50
How do you know it's a pretty decent camera if you haven't used it ?


Because others have used it, Chris, who can be bothered with such things.

Rather 'bizarrely' I use my mobile phone simply to make and receive calls and send texts - radical, eh! :lol:

Marco.

Marco
02-07-2010, 21:53
Hi Alex,


Nice one - thanks Marco, serialisation is a good idea, but don't get any notions of leaving us hanging at the end of Season 1 for too long... please!

Nah, no chance, dude. I actually do want to get it finished but, as I'm sure you'll appreciate, the needs of 'real life' must always come first! ;)

Marco.

Stratmangler
02-07-2010, 23:10
Because others have used it, Chris, who can be bothered with such things.

Rather 'bizarrely' I use my mobile phone simply to make and receive calls and send texts - radical, eh! :lol:

Marco.

I've still got a Nokia 6310i kicking around if you fancy a swap;)

The piccies from this post (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=133906&postcount=32) were taken on my mobile, and they're not too bad.
My mobile is a Nokia 5800 MusicExpress - I rarely do anything other than make/receive calls and texts. The camera occasionally comes in useful, as does the radio/media player.

Edit - had I realised the mobile you referred to was a Motorola I wouldn't have offered up the Nokia for a swap - I've hated every Motorola phone devices I've had ;)

The Vinyl Adventure
03-07-2010, 08:08
I'm just about to head into town to get my annual phone upgrade... Aparently the iPhone 4 has a better camera so you can all look forward to slightly better photos from me :)

Marco
03-07-2010, 08:20
Hi Chris,


I've still got a Nokia 6310i kicking around if you fancy a swap;)


Lol, thanks for the offer, but no. It's taken me long enough to get to know this phone (I always find Motorolas intuitive to use, and I like the styling), without starting again with something else! :eek:

Marco.

Rare Bird
03-07-2010, 08:39
I know what the outcome of this test will be ;)

Marco
03-07-2010, 08:42
Hehehehe.... If you think my deck 'wins', then you're wrong! :eyebrows:

I'm saying no more, though ;)

Marco.

P.S When's your avatar going back up, dude? Yas ain't yaself without it......

Marco
03-07-2010, 09:13
No thoughts on my post #14, Dave? :cool:

Marco.

Rare Bird
03-07-2010, 09:29
(I always find Motorolas intuitive to use, and I like the styling)


Aye i have a Motorolla Rzor V.1 just like the one below, all metal construction & dead easy to use, great camera too..I don't use it all the same i don't have any use for mobiles unless i go out..

Ali Tait
03-07-2010, 09:50
Weird isn't it? I got a razr a few years ago,first motorola I've had,and I hated it! I found it so counter intuitive to use I sold it when it was two days old.Give me Nokia or Samsung,or even better now,any Android phone.I'm due an upgrade and am trying to get an HTC desire.No t-mobile shop near me has any in stock.Could order online,but I couldn't get a more firm delivery date than "It'll be weeks".Guess I'll have to wait!

Rare Bird
03-07-2010, 10:12
Weird isn't it? I got a razr a few years ago,first motorola I've had,and I hated it! I found it so counter intuitive to use I sold it when it was two days old.Give me Nokia or Samsung,or even better now,any Android phone.I'm due an upgrade and am trying to get an HTC desire.No t-mobile shop near me has any in stock.Could order online,but I couldn't get a more firm delivery date than "It'll be weeks".Guess I'll have to wait!

Ali
Which Razr tho different versions, my mate has a late version it's totally different & dreadfull, way too wide & arkward to use compared to the original..

Rare Bird
03-07-2010, 10:34
Hehehehe.... If you think my deck 'wins', then you're wrong! :eyebrows:

I'm saying no more, though ;)

Marco.

P.S When's your avatar going back up, dude? Yas ain't yaself without it......

Moving away from the DD's don't you fancy trying Luxman 'PD300' against the Techy?..'PD300' being one of the best sounding decks i ever had,Those MS lids are pure quality... In my view it sounded better than the 'SL110' i used to have at the same time...

Ali Tait
03-07-2010, 10:40
It was when they first came out.

Mike
03-07-2010, 11:17
I'm due an upgrade and am trying to get an HTC desire.

Don't, it will ruin your life!

A mate at work got one recently and needs to be surgically separated from it. EVERY time anyone looks at him he's poking and prodding away at it, we're all certain he even plays with it while he's sat having a crap.

The mockery and piss taking has reached previously unscaled heights! :lolsign:

Joe
03-07-2010, 11:22
They're not called 'Crackberries' for nothing!

Ali Tait
03-07-2010, 11:40
:lolsign: I already have a G1,so I know what it's like!

Barry
03-07-2010, 14:01
Bloody Hell!

It's a bit like waiting for a bus - turn your back and two come along! In this case it's Marco's report on the Trio LO-7 deck (part 1 only, so far - Marco we're still waiting) and the return of André.

Think I had better open a bottle this evening to celebrate! :cool:

Regards

aquapiranha
04-07-2010, 21:23
Don't, it will ruin your life!

A mate at work got one recently and needs to be surgically separated from it. EVERY time anyone looks at him he's poking and prodding away at it, we're all certain he even plays with it while he's sat having a crap.

The mockery and piss taking has reached previously unscaled heights! :lolsign:

My new Sony X10 mini arrives tomorrow and I am hoping to use the Squeezebox app with it for streaming. :)

Mike
04-07-2010, 21:36
My new Sony X10 mini arrives tomorrow and I am hoping to use the Squeezebox app with it for streaming. :)

That sounds much more worthwhile than sitting on the crapper and playing games! ;)

Ali Tait
04-07-2010, 21:42
S'one thing I use my G1 for!

alfie2902
07-07-2010, 10:08
Part 2? :)

Joe
08-07-2010, 17:25
Next up was the Nakamichi. I noticed immediately it was stood on bigger feet than what the Denon had.

Marco
08-07-2010, 17:45
Not just that - it had flashing lights, too!

Marco.

Joe
08-07-2010, 18:18
If it's got flashing lights, it wins by default. No need to bother with writing any more.

Steve Toy
09-07-2010, 00:38
...

DSJR
09-07-2010, 10:43
Oh yes there is - and the longer he leaves it the fuzzier his impressions will get !

Marco
09-07-2010, 10:53
Oh no, trust me, it's all still crystal clear! I should get the next part sorted out over the weekend :)

Right now, I've just received the A23 SUT, specially designed for the SPU, so I'm off to listen to that... I'm expecting great things! :cool:

Laters,
Marco.

Marco
09-07-2010, 12:06
Oh, f*ck me sideways with the thick end of a caber!! I think I may be rediscovering my record collection over the weekend instead :eek: :eek:

Marco.

Stratmangler
09-07-2010, 12:36
http://i960.photobucket.com/albums/ae88/Stratmangler/newspaper2.jpg

Marco
09-07-2010, 12:54
That's quality! :lol:

Marco.

Stratmangler
09-07-2010, 12:59
I thought you'd enjoy it ! :lolsign:

pure sound
09-07-2010, 13:49
Right now, I've just received the A23 SUT, specially designed for the SPU, so I'm off to listen to that... I'm expecting great things! :cool:



It'd be interesting to know what impedance their SPU transformer presents to the cartridge. iirc their 103 tranny gave a step up of about 1:22 so was showing the cartridge 100 ohms when loaded by a 47Kohm mm stage.

Does this new transformer give more output with the SPU? I'd expect it to be showing a lower impedance and therefore giving a higher step up ratio.

Marco
09-07-2010, 15:07
Hi Guy,

I'm not sure what impedance the A23 shows the SPU (someone would need to measure it), but it certainly gives more output than using the A23 for the 103 does with the SPU, but it's the way it voices music reproduced that's just utterly stunning!!

Keith Aschenbrenner really does have a great ear for this kind of stuff.....

There's a bounce and 'impetus' to the way the SPU now handles rhythms, underpinned by serious visceral heft and a lovely top-end clarity, which drives music along with a rather infectious flow, simply putting a big smile on your face. Make no mistake, the SPU/A23 (SPU) maxes out the fun-factor in music.

Jeez, this is an infectious listen! :eek:

You really must get one for your 12" Jelco, as trust me, with the right SUT you'd L O V E it, mate!

Marco.

DSJR
09-07-2010, 16:17
It'd be interesting to know what impedance their SPU transformer presents to the cartridge. iirc their 103 tranny gave a step up of about 1:22 so was showing the cartridge 100 ohms when loaded by a 47Kohm mm stage.

Does this new transformer give more output with the SPU? I'd expect it to be showing a lower impedance and therefore giving a higher step up ratio.

Guy, you market a step-up tranny don't you? I appreciate you not wanting to blow your own trumpet, but I think it's important for this one to be represented as well. How does it compare with the A23 for example and how much better than, say, my old AT630?

Marco
09-07-2010, 16:41
Dave,

I've done a direct comparison with the A23 (103) and the T10 in my system, using the 103SA, as Guy kindly loaned me a T10 for a while.

I'll describe my thoughts after I've finished my dinner :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
09-07-2010, 16:53
http://i960.photobucket.com/albums/ae88/Stratmangler/newspaper2.jpg

Post of the year :youtheman:

Regards D S D L

Marco
09-07-2010, 16:55
Shut it, daftee, and go and write your (LONG overdue) tuner review!! :ner:

Marco.

Spectral Morn
09-07-2010, 16:56
Dave,

I've done a direct comparison with the A23 (103) and the T10 in my system, using the 103SA, as Guy kindly loaned me a T10 for a while.

I'll describe my thoughts after I've finished my dinner :)

Marco.


:offtopic: Thread drift

Finish your write up first then start a new thread for this one ;)


Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
09-07-2010, 16:57
Shut it, daftee, and go and write your (LONG overdue) tuner review!! :ner:

Marco.

Slightly different my good man. You have done your listening and I mostly have not + I have 20 + tuners to do you just had three TTs.

"Go finish your write up".....says he shaking his head as he walks away sighing.


Regards D S D L

pure sound
12-07-2010, 09:49
I also heard the T10 in comparison to the A23 (103 version/100 ohm) at Marco's place. I preferred it although I think Marco preferred the A23's presentation. They were both good with the 103SA although personally I felt the A23 sounded slightly grainy in comparison.

The T10 has the provision to show 38 or 150 ohms to the cartridge. (these values can be altered using shunt resistors across the outputs of the transformer if fine tuning is thought to be required). Of course such adjustment can be made to any transformers.

The 38 ohm setting seems to work very well with the SPU based on brief experience I've had with the combination at a friend's place but also in the view of a couple of SPU using customers.

I don't feel any immediate urge to get an SPU again. I did have one back in about 1991 and enjoyed it immensely. I still like them when I hear them now regardless of (perhaps because of) the fruity character they undoubtedly add. However, at the moment I'm enjoying the Technics EPS310 which probably retrieves more from the record and yet still presents it in a charming way. This was an exceptional cartridge which many people will not have heard especially not in a conventional pivoted arm.

John
12-07-2010, 09:55
Might be good to share a bit more about the Technics EPS310 I have not heard the cartridge and sounds like it might be another bargin

Marco
12-07-2010, 10:08
Hi Guy,

Yes, I remember when we did the comparison. Initially, I actually preferred (or rather I could hear something I liked about the T10), hence why I asked to borrow it from you, but found with extended listening that the A23 was voiced more to suit the 103, perhaps because of how both SUTs loaded the cartridge.

I never did play around with loading on the T10 to optimise it with the 103, other than with the options available as standard, as it's a D.I.Y job with shunt resistors, so that may have made a difference. Regardless though, it's a very good SUT and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it.

The graininess you're referring to was resolved by upgrading the phono sockets on the A23, which as standard uses 'American type' sockets, which have a shorter 'stub' than usual, and this wasn't making a proper connection with the RCAs on the Mark Grant G1000HD cables I was using, thus signal integrity was compromised.

It'll be interesting what you're impressions are of the SPU when you visit again later in the year (presuming you're going to the Practical Hi-fi/Audio T Manchester show, as usual?), as IMO, there is nothing 'fruity' about the presentation of the SPU in the context of my system, and nor did it possess this characteristic in Dave Anderton's with his L-07D. If it did, he would've hated it and run a mile, as Dave likes a lively, up-front type of presentation with his music. He does, after all, use DBLs.....! ;)

Have you heard a current, new batch, SPU? I believe that the new wood resin body-shell removes the coloration imbued by the older headshells.

Perhaps you could bring the Technics EPS310 with you, and we could fit it to my deck and make some comparisons? I'd find that most interesting, as I'm sure you would do, too :cool:

We could also compare M3Ds and see if you feel I'm getting any different results with it than you are.

Marco.

pure sound
12-07-2010, 11:28
I probably will do Manchester as its a good show & well attended.
I'd be happy to bring the EPS310, the Shure and the Io up in headshells so you could hear each of them (The Io does need its own tranny though)

I really need one of those nice FR cases for carrying 5 or 6 headshells that I occasionally see on ebay!

Barry
12-07-2010, 13:43
I probably will do Manchester as its a good show & well attended.
I'd be happy to bring the EPS310, the Shure and the Io up in headshells so you could hear each of them (The Io does need its own tranny though)

I really need one of those nice FR cases for carrying 5 or 6 headshells that I occasionally see on ebay!

Been after one of those for years! They do seem to be elusive, haven't seen one on eBay for a long time.

Regards

Marco
12-07-2010, 15:01
I probably will do Manchester as its a good show & well attended.
I'd be happy to bring the EPS310, the Shure and the Io up in headshells so you could hear each of them (The Io does need its own tranny though)

I really need one of those nice FR cases for carrying 5 or 6 headshells that I occasionally see on ebay!

Nice one. That would be most interesting.... :)

It'll be game over with the Io, though, as it's an absolutely fantastic cartridge, and should easily outperform everything else. It's probably the only modern hi-end cartridge I'd consider buying, or that I consider is worth the money.

Anyway, that's another excellent sesh to look forward to! :cool:

Marco.

saltleyseagulls
12-07-2010, 15:57
According to Chester Group they have stopped doing both the Manchester and the Scalford shows.

pure sound
12-07-2010, 16:00
Good job the show I'm referring to isn't organised by Chester Group then! ;)

Marco
12-07-2010, 16:15
According to Chester Group they have stopped doing both the Manchester and the Scalford shows.

Do you remember what I asked you to do the last time you posted here, and the other three times before that? It's a simple and entirely justified request.

Just to refresh your memory:


Now, can we have your first name and location please, mate? I've asked you this before on more than one occasion. It's something we insist new members provide here, and unfortunately you may lose your posting rights if you choose not to comply. We don't do 'anonymous' on AOS.


Since you have continually refused to comply with my request, your posting rights have been suspended forthwith until you email me the relevant details through the 'Contact Us' button at the bottom of the homepage, at which point your posting rights will be reinstated.

Marco.

Spectral Morn
12-07-2010, 16:16
According to Chester Group they have stopped doing both the Manchester and the Scalford shows.

As you were asked on another thread please pop into the Welcome section and say hello, tell us a bit about yourself, system and musical taste. Can you also put your first name as your signature and a basic location. These are basic requirements of joining AOS.

Nothing on the Chester Group website about not doing those shows, though that in and of itself does not mean they are not doing them either.


Regards D S D L

Ammonite Audio
12-07-2010, 16:49
C'mon Marco - where's Part 2? You can't leave us hanging on like this!

Barry
12-07-2010, 17:11
C'mon Marco - where's Part 2? You can't leave us hanging on like this!

+1 !

Stratmangler
12-07-2010, 17:19
http://i960.photobucket.com/albums/ae88/Stratmangler/newspaper2.jpg

Just in case you missed it first time round.

;)

Techno Commander
12-07-2010, 18:01
I really need one of those nice FR cases for carrying 5 or 6 headshells that I occasionally see on ebay!

These ones (http://www.djsuperstore.co.uk/KAM-Cartridge-Flight-Case) are only £15.

http://www.djsuperstore.co.uk/pimages/158457.jpg

pure sound
12-07-2010, 18:47
that would do. Cheers. I might get one!

The Vinyl Adventure
13-07-2010, 09:29
i have dipped in and out of this thread in the hope i might eventually see a second part... chris's newspaper has made the delay worthwhile... but blimey marco... how can you even remember the details anymore.... at least with neils tuner review its been so lon in the coming we just expect nothing... it will be a suprise when it apears.... this delay is in that really iritating ages-but-not-so-long-i-have-given-up stage .... i dont even care about 2 crazy lookin turntables il nver own and probably never hear... its just the priciple of being kept waiting ... pull that vaguly chubby thumb out the ass and get pressing that keyboard ;)

Marco
13-07-2010, 09:43
Hi Hamish,

Please read posts #25 and 29 here:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6965&page=3

No offence, but if folk go on about it any more there really won't be a second part, as it's starting to piss me off now! :rolleyes:

I also possess a retentive memory (and have made plenty of notes of what I heard at Dave's), so there's no danger of me forgetting anything :)

I trust that will be the end of the matter and people will respect this and wait patiently until I have time to write the rest of the article.

Marco.

Techno Commander
13-07-2010, 11:52
I trust that will be the end of the matter and people will respect this and wait patiently until I have time to write the rest of the article.

Marco.


:popcorn:

The Vinyl Adventure
13-07-2010, 12:57
should i have more liberally used winking smiles?... hold on, il edit it ...

edit: i put a smiley at the end...

i meant no offence marco, i was getting on the mocking bandwagon ... sorry to have been the final straw :)

Marco
13-07-2010, 13:03
No worries, dude. I just wanted to make it blatantly clear where I stood on the matter ;)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
13-07-2010, 13:15
so when do we get the next instalment then?

(to far? ;))

Beobloke
13-07-2010, 21:22
No offence, but if folk go on about it any more there really won't be a second part, as it's starting to piss me off now! :rolleyes:


Have we got a 'handbag' smilie? :sofa: :lolsign:

Techno Commander
13-07-2010, 22:44
Best I could do at short notice. :)

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg116/sillystuff99/Animations/girlfight.gif

kcc123
14-07-2010, 07:14
Patience is a virtue

Find it if you can

Seldom in a woman

Never in a man

Marco
14-07-2010, 11:16
Lol - let's all run with that thought!

Marco.

Mike
14-07-2010, 22:52
Best I could do at short notice. :)

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg116/sillystuff99/Animations/girlfight.gif

Excellent! :D

alfie2902
17-07-2010, 10:47
This Patience thing is hard!! :rolleyes:

kcc123
18-07-2010, 13:43
Hehe!

Had Marco not promised the review, you guys would not have moaned about the forever wait. Probably he is still in a very bad mood after his beloved Techy defeated by the awesome Kenwood L-07D. :(
I can imagine that he is selling the Technics and trying to get himself a Kenwood soon.:lol:

DSJR
18-07-2010, 15:40
Yeah, and keeping so quiet about it too (snigger)....

Marco
18-07-2010, 15:47
Hehe!

Had Marco not promised the review, you guys would not have moaned about the forever wait. Probably he is still in a very bad mood after his beloved Techy defeated by the awesome Kenwood L-07D.
I can imagine that he is selling the Technics and trying to get himself a Kenwood soon

Hahaha.... The truth is I'm saving up for the 'real McCoy': a P2 (with an R200)!!! :lol: :lol: :D :D

Eh, Davey boy?

:rofl: :rofl:

Marco.

kcc123
18-07-2010, 17:40
Wait a minute……a P2?

No, you should get its bigger brother the P3, the one in the Pioneer Exclusive series. You will regain your pride and joy with this almighty P3 or, better still, the P3a and show the people its superiority over all the others, including the L-07D.:eyebrows:

Marco
18-07-2010, 18:12
Lol - it's a rather different P2 I'm referring to!

If you're interested, follow the debate here from post #606 onwards:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4396&page=61

Marco.

DSJR
18-07-2010, 20:56
Marco, it's a PLANAR 2 you need to upgrade to, not the P2, a very different animal IMO...

You think I'm joking????????? ;)

Marco
18-07-2010, 21:05
What's the difference between a PLANAR 2 and a P2, then? :scratch:

Has one got less of a Mickey Mouse motor or a thicker elastic band than the other? :lol:

Marco.

DSJR
18-07-2010, 21:31
The Planar 2 was up to 2000 approx and was in basically two versions. The first had a wooden trim around the plinth and an R200 tonearm and may sound best (from memory) with the Linn rubber mat it first came with (Dave Wren has the deck and I currently have the mat and the two will be married up soon). A bit feedback prone and possibly a touch fast, but extremely musical and endearing to listen to IMO. All of these decks had the motor on an elastic suspension, a superior version of the Connoisseur BD1 motor mounting system as I recall.

In 1983 (early October to be precise), the RB arms appeared, the Planar 2 lost the wood trim and the sound became dryer in sound, but more precise, the feedback problem disappearing. The thicker wool-felt mat as used on the 2 gradually seemed to thin, as did the Planar 3 mat, which was always a little thinner in any case. The plinth changed in composition too in the intervening years but I don't feel the sound changed overmuch, although as cartridges improved, the decks regained much of the early model's "musicality." - IMO...

By 2000 approx, Rega had launched an improved motor phase board, which allowed smoother running and the motor could now be fixed to the top laminate on the plinth. Speed accuracy and stability were much improved as a result. I believe the Planar 2 was re-worked not long after, given an MDF platter (chamfered and silver painted in early ones) and became the P2 (the P3 was also born at this time as I recall, but the changes could have been phased in). The Planar 25 and Planar 9 was tentative steps into higher end and the 9 was an excellent alternative to the fruit-box pre Keel I understand.

I lost touch with Rega in late 2003 as the firm I worked for self-destructed and was out of the industry by the time the new RB tonarms arrived and the 24V option was launched. I also know little of the P5, 7 and current 9, except to say that a certain dealer chain that sells Rega had the odd fully-boxed and unopened deck finding its way into client's hands. In our day, we'd have lost the agency had we not set up and tested every one we sold - only took 1/4 hour so no big deal..

Marco
18-07-2010, 21:42
Dave,

Thanks for that. In terms of our discussion here, I think we should just agree to disagree and move on, as we're POLES apart on this.

However, in order to put this debate to bed once and for all, why don't we arrange a sesh at hi-fi dave's place where I could bring my Techie down and we could compare it to the Planar 2 in question in the system of your choice? I don't mind travelling.

I'll make a bet right now that if the Techie doesn't annihilate the Rega in every conceivable way, I'll donate £200 to a charity of your choice. I'm serious.

And if my modded Techie beats it, then an L-07D most definitely will!!

What do you say? :)

Marco.

DSJR
18-07-2010, 22:02
I have no axe to grind and no ego to speak of, so I'd love to hear the Techie annihilate the Rega. it would be great to meet you in person anyway and I'm due to meet Dave very soon in any case. PM him and see what he says..

I'm only having a little tease you know, So much of what the likes of me were conditioned to has been proved as wrong (to suit Linn/Naim's ends), yet much of it still holds true with any gear in any combination...

TTFN

:goodnight:

Marco
18-07-2010, 22:26
I have no axe to grind and no ego to speak of, so I'd love to hear the Techie annihilate the Rega. it would be great to meet you in person anyway and I'm due to meet Dave very soon in any case. PM him and see what he says..


It would be great to meet you both in person, too, and I'm sure we could have some fun. No offence intended, but I'm afraid that I just see (any) P2 as being no more than a decent budget T/T, which undoubtedly offers good SPPV. Yes, sonically, it punches above its weight - no question, but I don't in any way consider it as a top-notch turntable.

The fact is it does not have the overall engineering prowess of an SL-1210, let alone an L-07D, and as I firmly believe (and experience bears this out) that the sonic performance of any turntable, and how accurately it reproduces recorded information on vinyl, is largely down to how well engineered it is, I cannot see how any P2 could compete with either the Technics or the Kenwood. The P2/R200 I had certainly wouldn't have!

Like I said before, my Techie when it was KAB-modified annihilated my old 'race-tuned' P5, let alone what it would do to it now, so I can't see how a P2 (any P2) would be different.


I'm only having a little tease you know, So much of what the likes of me were conditioned to has been proved as wrong (to suit Linn/Naim's ends), yet much of it still holds true with any gear in any combination...


Yes I do realise that. I do think though that the bit highlighted above is the crux of the matter ;)

You mentioned that you were due to go down to Dave's place again at some point. When was that again? If Dave's ok with it, we could all meet up then :cool:

Marco.

Ammonite Audio
19-07-2010, 05:23
And if my modded Techie beats it, then an L-07D most definitely will!!

Ahah! Is this a sneak preview of Part 2?:)

DSJR
19-07-2010, 08:54
I'm hoping to venture inland for a couple of days early in August and have loads of people to see and gear to pick up. No dates set as yet...

Beobloke
19-07-2010, 09:09
All of these decks had the motor on an elastic suspension, a superior version of the Connoisseur BD1 motor mounting system as I recall.



Really - is that where the inspiration came from?

Christ, anything would be better than the motor and suspension setup featured on that festering, steaming turd of a turntable!! :lol:

Alex_UK
19-07-2010, 09:35
However, in order to put this debate to bed once and for all, why don't we arrange a sesh at hi-fi dave's place where I could bring my Techie down and we could compare it to the Planar 2 in question in the system of your choice? I don't mind travelling.

I'll make a bet right now that if the Techie doesn't annihilate the Rega in every conceivable way, I'll donate £200 to a charity of your choice. I'm serious.


Are further spectators allowed? I'll bring the cake! :)

DSJR
19-07-2010, 10:45
I'm sure this could be arranged, but the premises are just not big enough for all and sundry to attend a "bakeoff....." sadly.

Techno Commander
19-07-2010, 11:57
Web stream? :)

Barry
19-07-2010, 12:36
I'm sure this could be arranged, but the premises are just not big enough for all and sundry to attend a "bakeoff....." sadly.

I could pop along - could turn out to be a get-together of the East Anglian chapter of the AoS mafia!

Regards

Rare Bird
19-07-2010, 15:53
i'm really glad i'm out of turntables it's nothing more than mines better than yours crap.

Marco
19-07-2010, 17:03
It's just a bake-off for a bit of fun, dude, that's all :)

Marco.

chris@panteg
19-07-2010, 19:09
i'm really glad i'm out of turntables it's nothing more than mines better than yours crap.

Hey Andre

Can i just say Prog ! sounds better or more enjoyable on my Techie than any of my previous Brit belt drives , strange but true :cool:

DSJR
19-07-2010, 19:44
Prog sounds even better with a Thorens TD150/125 with Quad 33/303 and whatever *good* early 70's speakers take one's fancy ;)

Rare Bird
19-07-2010, 21:38
Prog sounds even better with a Thorens TD150/125 with Quad 33/303 and whatever *good* early 70's speakers take one's fancy ;)

:exactly:

Techno Commander
01-08-2010, 11:06
Have we got a 'handbag' smilie? :sofa: :lolsign:

I knew I had seen one somewhere. :)

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg116/sillystuff99/Animations/handbags.gif

DSJR
01-08-2010, 13:15
Is Marco away now, as I believe he had another private "bake-off" to attend a couple of days ago ;)

Rare Bird
01-08-2010, 18:57
I don't seem to recal so much bickering between CD player, maybe this world needs more of em.

:sofa:

darkstar078
03-08-2010, 15:07
http://C:\Documents and Settings\User\Mijn documenten\Around the World of Google Planet\Avatars\smashit.jpeg\

This is what happened during July with many AOS members' pc.

Alex_UK
03-08-2010, 15:25
The image isn't working for me Sacha? Looks like it is a link to an image on your PC (which won't work) - either attach it (paper-clip) or host it on Photobucket or similar and link to it there. :)

darkstar078
03-08-2010, 15:38
Ah Alex, I'll try. Thanks for helping.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac157/darkstar078/smashitjpg-1.gif

alcarmichael
03-01-2013, 21:42
Is the review ready yet? :)

Beobloke
03-01-2013, 21:57
I've just flicked through all 12 pages and am astonished we never got part 2.

Tell you what Marco, deliver the report on the Nak forthwith and I'll take some pictures at the Audiojumble for you next month - that's a promise!

:D

Marco
04-01-2013, 08:33
Lol... I'm waiting for the return session, now that my T/T has been further, much more extensively, modified since the last time I went to Dave's, which will be happening shortly, after he's been round to mine for much delayed visit :)

However, once I've been to Dave's, there will be a full report (this time with proper pictures), don't worry! :trust:

Marco.

hal55
05-01-2013, 06:12
Never heard a Nak battleship TT so I'm really interested in this as well.

Hal55

Marco
06-01-2013, 14:28
No worries, Hal.

To my ears, the L-07D last time pissed all over the Nakamichi (as did my Techy to a slightly lesser extent), but that could've been because it was fitted with my most sonically hated of tonearms: an SME V (or rather the 12" version thereof), which may have explained the rather 'safe' and 'blandsville' sound! :rolleyes:

I do get the impression, however, that the Nakamichi is much more about representing a 'statement of engineering', and the 'boy's toy' thing, than it is the pinnacle of accurate vinyl reproduction. In that respect, to my ears, the L-07D deserves that crown much more! :exactly:

Perhaps things would be different if the Nakamichi was fitted with a more musical sounding tonearm? It'll be interesting to see what Dave comes up with this time!

It was very interesting comparing my (then) Techy to the Kenwood. It was very close indeed, and Dave was gob-smacked at just how good a supposed 'DJ deck' could sound, when suitably modified, but the L-07D had the slight edge in driving the music home more convincingly, and with the best recordings, creating that sense of 'being there'.

However, the fact that my Techy got so close to it, sonically, at a point where my expenditure on mods did not equate to anything like the cost of a prime example of an L-07D on ebay, was something I was most satisfied with. The real 'proof of the pudding' will come this time, when I've now spent more on modding my Techy (new platter, PSU, tonearm, etc) than the cost of the Kenwood...

It'll also be interesting to hear how hear how my T/T shapes up to his £25k Systemdek, now that I've got the Royal GM MKII at the helm. All will be revealed soon! ;)

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables
06-01-2013, 16:55
Yep its a story I'd like to hear the conclusion too:cool: as well.

Big Vern
06-01-2013, 22:33
I use a Dynavector DV505 on my Nakamichi TX-1000, with a Denon DL103r and have found the sound to be suitably musical, although I did use an SME 312 for a while and experienced results similar to those described by Marco - IIRC, Dave had a higher spec SME - was it a 312S, Marco?

You certainly need to work at things with the Nakamichi, but really superb results can be had. I recently purchased a Jools Holland album (with his R&B orchestra) and side B is pressed sufficiently off piste, that it comes close to spoiling the music, such is the manifest wow. However, on the Nak this is not an issue, as the table corrects this 'friday afternoon' pressing, making it completely listenable. That said, records this bad are a pretty rare - I'm just very sensitive to pitch - so the Nakamichi is mana from heaven for me. I will concede that most would view the facility as OTT and, as David Price once opined based on my concession, needlessly complex. :)

It would be interesting to know if Dave has persevered with his Nakamichi, or moved it on...with a £25k Systemdek to play with, I suspect the Nakamichi may be on borrowed time! :eek:

Look forward to the conclusion, Marco

Best Wishes,

Marco
06-01-2013, 23:16
Hi Paul,


I use a Dynavector DV505 on my Nakamichi TX-1000, with a Denon DL103r and have found the sound to be suitably musical, although I did use an SME 312 for a while and experienced results similar to those described by Marco - IIRC, Dave had a higher spec SME - was it a 312S, Marco?


Yup, it was a 312S. Still rather too 'conservative' sounding, though, not to mention stupidly overpriced, unless you're an SME fanboy, or you buy it simply to marvel at the engineering quality!

For me, that's a no-no, as any part of my T/T, first and foremost, must act as the best performing musical tool for the job. I don't do 'hi-fi jewellery'...


You certainly need to work at things with the Nakamichi, but really superb results can be had. I recently purchased a Jools Holland album (with his R&B orchestra) and side B is pressed sufficiently off piste, that it comes close to spoiling the music, such is the manifest wow. However, on the Nak this is not an issue, as the table corrects this 'friday afternoon' pressing, making it completely listenable.


That's undoubtedly impressive, and no doubt sometimes useful, but one wonders what the knock-on effect is, sonically, as a result of the added complexity? I'm afraid that, when it comes to audio design, I'm one of those 'keep it simple, stupid' kind of chaps: let's have the least amount of parts used as possible, but of the highest quality. However, most importantly, in a musical sense, everything must work together symbiotically - that's my philosophy! :exactly:


It would be interesting to know if Dave has persevered with his Nakamichi, or moved it on...with a £25k Systemdek to play with, I suspect the Nakamichi may be on borrowed time!


Dave's still got his Nak, and favours it to the L-07D, but I think he considers the Systemdek his best T/T. Last time I had a listen, it was gob-smackingly good, and without doubt the best belt-drive T/T I've ever heard, exhibiting none of the common flaws of belt-drives - quite something else!! :eek:


Look forward to the conclusion, Marco.


No worries, matey. All will be revealed in due course. We must have a sesh ourselves soon. I'm going to be doing the rounds this year, as there are loads of people who want to visit me, or want me to go to their place, so we should book something into our respective diaries! :cool:

Marco.

Big Vern
07-01-2013, 06:17
Hi Marco,

I think you've hit the nail on the head with the Nak - I do wonder whether the platter construction was/is a limiting factor...the 'bit' that moves is the uppermost glass sheet and this has often been identified as a limiting factor in the sound. Don't know why Nak chose glass over other materials, but the fact they offered a mat to place above this sheet is often cited as an admission that the 'stock' sound suffered with the glass.

Some folk have removed the glass platter, replacing it with Cu 180 mats from Micro Seiki - this has been found (in their experience) to add weight to the music, fleshing it out into something altogether more musical! :)

As for design philosophy - totally agree with you

We must get something into the diary - it would be good for me to have the Onkyo PX-100M back together (long story, for another post :eek:), so we'll have plenty to experiment with! :)

Best Wishes

Marco
07-01-2013, 23:21
Hi Paul,

You have a PM! :)

Marco.