PDA

View Full Version : What value is placed on the absence of UK servicing when considering a brand?



Neil McCauley
10-06-2008, 11:23
Let me set the scene. One of the reasons I gave up representing STAX equipment, at the time I was the global #1 for the brand was not, as is sometimes reported, the unreliability of the Omega-2 earspeakers and certain batches of the 717, but that on a number of occasions, the defective items had to be returned to Japan for remedial work, sometimes under warranty.

Quite naturally, my customers who under warranty found they might be without their very expensive equipment for some weeks because of the inability to rectify the fault in the UK, were aggrieved. And so was i. The problems were all eventually sorted, but by that time I was sick of the whole thing. And that was that.

Anyway, two new situations recently has caused me to reflect further on this.

Mark Levinson:

First, I received a call from a person who sought my advice re what seemed at first sight an extraordinary bargain on a piece of very expensive Mark Levinson AV equipment. The caller had responded to an advert placed by one of the only 4 remaining UK Levinson retailers. The advert read as follows:

"Mark Levinson Model 40 HD/ AV processor/pre-amplifier As new, factory sealed boxes. Cost new in excess £30,000 on offer for only (Pounds Sterling) 14995"

The caller spoke to the retailer, initially thinking (so he tells me) that this meant that ML was vanishing from the UK. The retailer assured him that wasn’t the case. The reason for the massive saving, and the sealed boxes, was that under warranty this equipment had failed and it was (apparently) beyond the capability of the UK service agent to fix it. So, at no doubt buttock-clenching cost, was returned to the USA, and then back to the UK.

At this point the caller asked what would happen if it went wrong again after the (what he felt) was the very short 6 month warranty. Apparently it could still not be serviced in the UK. The caller asked my opinion.

I was astonished that what was formerly one of the world’s leading audiophile brands could not be serviced by the importer. My advice was that despite the massive saving, he should walk away. The opportunity, as I perceived it, for massive bills outside of warranty, plus the fact that having come back from the makers it still only had (apparently) a 6 month warranty, was I felt a tacit lack of confidence on the part of the seller and/or the importer and/or the maker.

NAGRA

Shortly after that, a tale of woe regarding the owner and his unreliable yet top-of-the line Nagra pre/power combination came to my attention. You can read it here: http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48752

What really shocked me was the statement by one of the contributors to the thread as follows: “Lee Hi, well RT sends everything back to Switzerland ,no mater how trivial, what about letting a UK service engineer have a lok”

So here’s another importer, of massively expensive kit, not in a position to offer, it seems, quick UK based service on state-of-the-art equipment.

And so I ruminated as follows.

A Lexus car does not have to go back to Japan for fixing. Nor does a Canon camera. Nor does a washing machine, and so on. There may be exceptions with other state-of-the-art consumables such as £50k+ wrist watches – but I can’t think of many.

So my questions are these.

1. Should ‘civilians’ enquire as to what the importer / distributor’s policy is regarding repair work i.e. can all service work be carried out in the UK and if not, why not?

2. Should magazines (who always and vociferously claim to have the end-user’s interests at the very heart of what they do) be persuaded to include a brief statement re the state of UK servicing on any item they review?

As always. I seek comments and where appropriate will be happy to respond to those comments.

Thank you

HP.


---//---

Togil
10-06-2008, 13:12
It would be interesting to know whether RT are sending everything back to Switzerland because Nagra require them to do so or because they can't be troubled to employ a decent engineer. In that case, what about Spectral and Accuphase ?

Neil McCauley
10-06-2008, 13:18
It would be interesting to know whether RT are sending everything back to Switzerland because Nagra require them to do so or because they can't be troubled to employ a decent engineer. In that case, what about Spectral and Accuphase ?
I doubt if Mr Purnell (founder of RT Services) would be inclined to talk about this to me. However he might be interested in issuing a statement to the founder and/or moderators? Anyone fancy a go?

My guess is that he might be interested in offering his perspective on this issue. I've found him to be forthright, articulate and cogent.

http://www.rtsaudio.co.uk/contacts.html

info@rtsaudio.co.uk

Tel: 01235 810 455

purite audio
10-06-2008, 13:21
Nagra has/used to have their 'pro' service centre in St Albans.

Neil McCauley
10-06-2008, 13:47
Nagra has/used to have their 'pro' service centre in St Albans.
My understanding, based on a long interview with Mr Purnell some years back is that Nagra Pro and Nagra Domestic are entirely separate in the UK. Might have changed though.

Considering the market penetration that Nagra Pro have achieved in the news and film industries, I very much doubt if pro users would tolerate a draconian return-to-Switzerland regime.


---//---

enbee23
10-06-2008, 21:58
I know that RT use a chap in Surrey for Accuphase repair work. My Krell KSA-100 went to him last year, very helpful.

Neil McCauley
10-06-2008, 22:35
Hopefully we'll get back on topic at some point. Meanwhile ...

My questions are these.

1. Should ‘civilians’ enquire as to what the importer / distributor’s policy is regarding repair work i.e. can all service work be carried out in the UK and if not, why not?

2. Should magazines (who always and vociferously claim to have the end-user’s interests at the very heart of what they do) be persuaded to include a brief statement re the state of UK servicing on any item they review?

As always. I seek comments and where appropriate will be happy to respond to those comments.

Thank you

HP.

Togil
11-06-2008, 07:00
I should certainly enquire from the dealer what would happen to equipment if it needed repair before purchasing equipment. Certain items i would probably prefer to go back to the official repair centre, eg my Quad ESLs.

jandl100
11-06-2008, 07:40
I must admit that I don't really consider the UK serviceability of kit when I buy it (I buy used almost exclusively). But I now have strong evidence that I am in a very small minority on this.

I bought (used) a Burmester CD006 cdp. A superb sounding machine, imho. But, box-swapper that I am :), when it came time for me to move on (after about a year) I could gather no interest whatsoever in this wonderful machine. Reason - "what if it went wrong?". Answer: It might have to go back to Germany. In the end I managed to arrange a swap deal for an Ayre cdp (which sounded appalling compared to the twice-the-rrp Burmester, imo). I then sold the Ayre on for what I had hoped to get for the Burmester.

So it seems that most folks do indeed care about local serviceability issues, even if I am happy to take the risk!

griffo104
11-06-2008, 08:22
I would expect high end gear, such as those mentioned, to come with a considerable warranty. At least 2 years, if not a bit more. The car analogy is a good one and if a company like Kia can give 7 year warranties on things with moving components in then surely an amplifier costing more than double a Kia should come with decent warranty as well.

I would also expect ht eretailer selling me the gear to make it obvious where the kit would be repaired in the case of a problem, and that in theory it may mean being without it for a number of weeks. I would also expect them to supply something to in it's place for the duration although this may be just a cheap equivalent to allow you to listen to music in the mean time.

Certainly at the price companies like Mark Levinson and Nagra fetch in this country I would expect it. My local Nissan dealer would loan me a car if I had to be without mine for a couple of days.

I've been very lucky with kit - although I don't buy as much as Jerry, but I do check the reputation of the company out before I purchase to check if there are any horror stories out there about reliability and servicability.

I didn't buy a Dynavector cart a few years ago after a work colleague had two that pretty much fell apart on him and there have been similar incidents reported on Zerogain and PFM by more than one forum memeber. Ok these were the cheaper end of the range but it has still stopped me from regarding them when thinking of a future purchase. A similar thing also happened with Benz carts just recently after a bit of a horror story over on the Wam. I still don't trust Funk turntable, although I like them, after a horror show at a delaer with the old Pink Triangle Tarentella a few years ago.

Some of the money asked in this country for high end gear, should result in much better service from the people importing it. If they can't maintain it here than the manufacturer should really look at whether to deal with them as it will sully their name here.

Marco
11-06-2008, 09:37
1. Should ‘civilians’ enquire as to what the importer / distributor’s policy is regarding repair work i.e. can all service work be carried out in the UK and if not, why not?

2. Should magazines (who always and vociferously claim to have the end-user’s interests at the very heart of what they do) be persuaded to include a brief statement re the state of UK servicing on any item they review?


Hello Howard,

In answer to your first question I think it's only common sense for customers to enquire about repair work, should it be necessary, when considering buying equipment from a manufacturer where no UK servicing is offered. Dealers should also be advising customers, too, in that scenario.

I think if it were me though, and I really liked and wanted the equipment, I would take the risk as my view with hi-fi is 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'. I've imported quite a few things now from the States and China that aren't available to buy in the UK which would have no UK servicing in the event of failure.

It's a risk you take but in my view is worth it if it pays off. So far it's worked fine for me, and if anything goes wrong I know that I've got people here in the UK that would be able to fix it if something went wrong. Of course, not everyone is so adventurous!

Regarding your second question I would say most definitely yes they should. From a punter's point of view you can never have too much information in a magazine review, so informing readers of the lack of UK servicing for a particular product is good practice, but at the end of the day I guess the onus is on the potential customer to do his or her research properly before committing to the purchase.

Marco.

P.S I have renamed your thread "What value is placed on the absence of UK servicing when considering a brand?" I think your typing fingers must have got a bit mixed up originally! ;)

Complin
12-06-2008, 21:52
Just wanted to extend the discussion a little further

Most of my listening is done on high end electrostatic headphones rather than speakers such as Stax Omeag and Sennheiser Orpheus. These require as good if not better source and amplification components than your standard hifi set up due to the amount of detail available and operating at fractions of watts rather than hundreds.

There are many niche suppliers that supply aftermarket amplifiers some of which cost mant thousands of pounds. I know one person who purchased a Single Power valve (tube) based headphone amplifier from America which cost £13,000! The following is one of the posts from the worlds largest headphone forums

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/stax-thread-new-223263-new/

I live in Israel and have an Single Power ES-1. Unfortunately the sound is
unbalanced. The sound is fuller and weightier on the left side and lighter and
hollower on the right side. I already sent it in to Singlepower and
they sent it back exactly the same as before. I was not surprised as I
once bought a SDS-XLR from them and they shipped it to me 5 months
latewith serious issues. I sent it back at my cost (over $800) and in 6
months after countless begging requests it was returned exactly as it
was before- absolutely nothing was done that could be seen physically or
heard. It was useless for me to persue the matter furthur as I was
being ignored completely for close to a year so I ended up selling it at a
big discount in "Broken" condition.

The question is what to do now with my ES-1. I love it- I just need to
fix this one problem. It really does sound great besides this one
issue. There are many competent technitions in Israel. I brought it to
one and he said he doesn't know how to open it up because the screws are
based on the fractional system versus the metric system used here in
Israel and his tool is either to big or to small. Of course Singlepower
promissed me a tool to open the screws on the amp. at least 5 times
and it never arrived. Unfortunately after being abused and lied to no
less than 30 times in our relationship Mikhael and I have decided to part
ways- so to speak.

Does anyone know what you call the tool which opens the screws on the
ES-1? I have a family member comming from the US to Israel soon and he
can bring it to me so I can have a technition here look at it. Also I
would appreciate any ideas from the technically minded as to what
potentially may be the problem so I can tell my Technition to look in these
areas.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/where-singlepower-where-mikhail-333677/

Hey Headfiers,

Does anyone know where Mikhail is? (Single Power) has anyone tried to contact him recently? He is totally MIA, mailbox full, and basically washed off the face of the earth. This is concerning because he is harboring a VERY expensive amp.

This is very upsetting - since, as we all know, Singlepower is not known for their responsiveness. However this recent run is non-existence!
1) Yes I have called him
2) He's avoiding my calls
3) His mailbox is full
4) I've been trying to reach him for 2 weeks calling him every day
5) He promised delivery of my amp (in for repair) over a month ago.

Irresponsibility

The above thread is worth reading, its a lesson in purchasing niche items from remote suppliers that have no service or support in the UK or EU. Frustrating, costly and just not worth the effort!

jandl100
13-06-2008, 08:48
Interesting. I think that my unconcern about serviceability is that I very rarely have had problems with equipment.

The last item I had to have repaired was a Musical Fidelity NuVista21 DAC which died - and which MF charged me £hundreds to fix. :steam: I was not pleased about that! Before that an obscure make of German valve amp died - but any competent vintage kit engineer can usually tackle those, and one did. I think those are the only items needing repair for many years of multiple-box ownership.

But yes, if my £13,000 headphone amp of obscure origin (:mental:) was irrecoverable, I too would not be very happy. (But let's face it, if you can afford £13k for a headphone amp don't you just go out and buy another one with the change in your back pocket? ;))

Mike Reed
13-06-2008, 10:07
Even better than Jerry, I cannot remember a failing piece of kit which formed part of my system. Not that I change things much, mind.

However, there are big U.K. firms out there with enviable records on servicing and repairs. Naim (expensive but dependable) and Meridian ('we simply aim to cover our costs') are but two. Michell are fast-acting and supportive. I gather SME,Arcam, Quad, E.A.R. and Mission are, or were, good in this respect. Many U.K. cottage industries also have a good customer relationship (Art Audio has been recommended). There must be many others.

Cartridges apart, the U.K. produces some of the world's best hifi:- always has! Unless you can depend upon your distributor, sourcing from the U.K. must be a safer bet except for electronics engineers.

I guess that with valved kit, if you have access to competent help or are handy yourself, componentry and repairs are less of a concern, as Marco says.

'Nothing ventured, nothing gained', as Marco's motto may be. 'Nothing ventured, nothing lost' should also enter into the equation, I feel.

Filterlab
13-06-2008, 10:45
Interesting. I think that my unconcern about serviceability is that I very rarely have had problems with equipment.

I have to thoroughly agree with Jerry. I've only ever had one component fail in all the time I've had hi-fi; that was my Arcam Alpha 5+ which I bought brand new back in the early nineties. It was playing happily one day and then suddenly no sound whatsoever. It was the DAC. I expected it to go for repair but the chap at the hi-fi shop (Martin's in Norwich I think) gave me an immediate replacement off the shelf and sorted the player himself.

That was the only component failure I've ever experienced and that was almost 15 years ago. I've had a mix of new and used hi-fi since then and never run into problems with either. I just don't consider repairs or even servicing. Hi-fi's just too well made I guess. :)

Filterlab
13-06-2008, 10:46
...Many U.K. cottage industries also have a good customer relationship...

:lol: Not all of them. :)

jandl100
13-06-2008, 12:12
:lol: Not all of them. :)

If you are referring to a certain Banned member - think anagram of VNA - then I can assure you that his customer service is second to none. :) His forum persona is quite a different matter, though! :doh:

Marco
13-06-2008, 12:31
Interestingly, someone put forward the theory recently that the true personality of said banned member is actually that which is witnessed on hi-fi forms, and the "persona" created by him in real life is that which is false!

Marco.

Filterlab
13-06-2008, 12:55
That's what I've experienced. :)

Mike Reed
13-06-2008, 15:58
Interestingly, someone put forward the theory recently that the true personality of said banned member is actually that which is witnessed on hi-fi forms, and the "persona" created by him in real life is that which is false!

Marco.

Interesting hypothesis; quite the inverse of what one might imagine. You do know that he has transferred his 'rant' to PFM, where, I gather, he's no stranger.

Although totally disinterested in his later diatribes, I always felt they were more 'cant' than 'rant', and tended to increasingly portray the author as the former with a vowel change; probably unfair, I suppose.

Mike
13-06-2008, 17:06
Come on now everyone... tut tut. As the person in question has no 'right of reply', I think we should be a bit careful.

You never know who's watching! :eyebrows:

Mike Reed
13-06-2008, 18:52
Indeed! How remiss!

Mike
13-06-2008, 19:22
;)

Back on topic maybe, pretty please? :)