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View Full Version : Caiman -- three weeks of burn-in



magiccarpetride
25-05-2010, 17:00
I am a software developer by profession, so I like the divide-and-conquer approach (good for taming complexities). Hence, I'm chopping the discussion into separate threads, which seems to confuse some inmates here. Apologies, I just prefer to have things neatly compartmentalized.

In today's installation, I'm offering some observations and comments on a never ending saga with the Caiman burn-in (this may come in handy for some future Caiman-heads, while they're impatiently waiting to hear this DAC's full potential).

So, after three weeks of constant burn-in, the DAC continues to improve:) This morning, it presented the music material with full authority, balls-to-the-wall and all, but also with gentle tenderness and delicacy. How can that be? Dunno, but that's how I felt it while listening to Stevie Wonder's "Blame it on the Sun". Also, Blood Sweat and Tears rip through "Hi-De-Ho" with such aplomb, that it left me absolutely speechless. The soaring choir and the mock-muffled brass, with swampy mouth harmonica on top, never sounded this much in focus, sharp and at the same time emotionally engaging, fully musical.

I also feel that the bass is becoming more airy. Not as hard as it sounded last week. Not sure if I prefer that, but just goes to show you how this DAC keeps changing constantly. I just keep it running, and wonder in awe at what it's capable of, with the passage of time. One thing is for sure: with burn-in, I'm progressively hearing more and more previously undetected details, especially the quieter ones.

I just feel at this point that I really, really need to get me a top-shelf mighty power amp, something that will take the juice that oozes from the Caiman and push it to the Maggies without losing control.

Also, I've switched back to my DSP 200s preamp; the Caiman preamp just couldn't deliver enough juice to my DPA 200s power amp. That may change, however, if I get lucky and get me a power amp upgrade.

Ashmore
25-05-2010, 20:12
Is it conceivable that the dac isn't changing at all, but that you are listening more attentively?

magiccarpetride
25-05-2010, 20:19
Is it conceivable that the dac isn't changing at all, but that you are listening more attentively?

It is. I would say, however, that if indeed I'm listening more attentively now, this is thanks to learning, from this DAC, about how to listen more attentively.

In my prior experience, when I would get a component that would make an audible difference in the sound quality, that difference didn't seem to improve over time. It is only with this DAC that I'm noticing the almost tangible change with the progressive burn-in. One could argue that, while I was evaluating my previous components, I was also listening to them more and more attentively, however, I wasn't able at that time to detect any improvement from one week to another.

AlanS
30-05-2010, 17:39
Also, I've switched back to my DSP 200s preamp; the Caiman preamp just couldn't deliver enough juice to my DPA 200s power amp. That may change, however, if I get lucky and get me a power amp upgrade.

If you are changing other parts of your system how on earth can you ascribe differences in what you hear soley to the dac? As a software developer by profession you surely appreciate that when drawing conclusions you dont introduce variables or if you do at least acknowledge their contributions to the outcome.

magiccarpetride
31-05-2010, 18:23
If you are changing other parts of your system how on earth can you ascribe differences in what you hear soley to the dac? As a software developer by profession you surely appreciate that when drawing conclusions you dont introduce variables or if you do at least acknowledge their contributions to the outcome.

Yeah, I know, wanky, isn't it? The thing is, in real life there's a lot of compromises to be made. We cannot assume that this is exact science, you know.

In my view, the difference in the sound between using the DAC as a pre-amp vs. using the DSP 200s as a pre-amp are nowhere close as obvious as are the differences between the Caiman out of the box vs. the Caiman after three days of burn-in vs. the Caiman after three weeks of burn-in vs. the Caiman after four weeks of burn-in. Because of that observation, I attribute most of the audible differences to the Caiman burn-in.

There are many other varying factors that I do not include in the equation. For instance, we keep changing the furniture arrangement in the living room, where my Maggies are. Surely, that must affect the sound, but I just don't factor that in. Also, the weather patterns keep changing on a daily (I should say hourly) basis, especially now in the spring, and surely the barometric pressure and the humidity and the temperature etc. all have certain effect on the sound. Not to mention my mood, level of tiredness, house and street noises that keep varying uncontrollably.

So it's all pretty much a moving target, and we're sitting here trying to make some sense out of it. Compromises...

The Vinyl Adventure
31-05-2010, 20:16
With respect, I'd say moving the speakers and room around during this break in period close to makes your findings meaningless!
Moving a room around can have vast effects on the sound. I recently moved my kit in my room and it's like a different hifi!

magiccarpetride
31-05-2010, 20:52
With respect, I'd say moving the speakers and room around during this break in period close to makes your findings meaningless!
Moving a room around can have vast effects on the sound. I recently moved my kit in my room and it's like a different hifi!

No, I didn't touch the speakers. nor did I touch any other hi fi gear. The only things that kept changing are rearranging the chairs, the sofa, some bookshelves, throwing in a larger rug, replacing it with a smaller rub, throwing in some extra cushions on the sofa, opening the curtains, drawing the curtains, that sort of thing.

That, plus having several people in the room at once, then dropping down to one person only (me), then two people, then several again, etc., you get the picture. All that commotion affects the sound, of course.

The Grand Wazoo
31-05-2010, 22:23
The only things that kept changing are rearranging the chairs, the sofa, some bookshelves, throwing in a larger rug, replacing it with a smaller rub, throwing in some extra cushions on the sofa, opening the curtains, drawing the curtains, that sort of thing.


That's a hell of a lot of 'only's' - that little lot adds up to a significant change - acoustically, a completely different room in fact.

magiccarpetride
31-05-2010, 23:30
That's a hell of a lot of 'only's' - that little lot adds up to a significant change - acoustically, a completely different room in fact.

Yeah, that's what I was alluding to in reply to the member who complained that my findings are not exactly based on what some might call 'scientific methodology'. And they sure aren't. That's real life for you, folks. A web of compromises, out of which we're trying to find some rhyme or reason.

Many of us do not have a luxury to afford a dedicated, locked-at-all-times-keep-the-cleaning-maid-out listening room.

The Vinyl Adventure
31-05-2010, 23:39
Moving book shelves and sofas are fairly big things and certainly not day to day in my house...

AlanS
01-06-2010, 10:12
Yeah, that's what I was alluding to in reply to the member who complained that my findings are not exactly based on what some might call 'scientific methodology'. And they sure aren't. That's real life for you, folks. A web of compromises, out of which we're trying to find some rhyme or reason.

Many of us do not have a luxury to afford a dedicated, locked-at-all-times-keep-the-cleaning-maid-out listening room.

First I was not complaining though I can understand that a challenge to your thinking would be seen as a complaint. Having read so much about what you are ascribing to the DAC I was curious as to whether other things had changed in the listening environment. When you mentioned the pre-amp I got the sense that you were in fact making some changes.

Like it or not if you change the equipment used itself or the environment you listen to the system in then even if you wish to believe differences you hear at entirely due to the DAC you I suspect do accept that the other changes are not so minor as to be of NO EFFECT. Some members believe they get tangible difference by rerouting cables for example, that isn't a big change though.

I too have found more in a piece of music on listening to it a few days later, not because of burning in or anything like it. I put it down to becoming familiar with the piece and listening "through" the parts I have heard before to new things not previously noticed. I switch my stuff off each night, safety, economy and the environment so no burn in as you have it for me. But the room stays pretty much the same!

It is laudable that you are enjoying the product increasingly as you see it and I wish you well in so doing. Stan B must be appreciative of the publicity. I suspect anyone enquiring of the things I did will be perceived as complaining so how about Hamish's and Wazoo's probings/reactions to what I drew out?

StanleyB
01-06-2010, 10:49
Stan B must be appreciative of the publicity. I suspect anyone enquiring of the things I did will be perceived as complaining so how about Hamish's and Wazoo's probings/reactions to what I drew out?
Judging by the comments made on various forums over the last nine months or so about the Caiman, I am not surprised that many customers are surprised the DAC delivers the goods and more.

As for your views on details becoming more noticeable because of the likelihood that people get accustomed to the DAC ( I have condensed your essay to just a few words): you are misguided. The quick way to check that out is to take the DAC out of the audio chain and play back the same track(s). With and without the DAC in circuit it should be quite audible if the brain is being fooled or the ears are hearing a difference.

Gazjam
01-06-2010, 11:26
yup, +1.

to me this is the ONLY way to get past audio "memory" and the brain fooling itself.(which can happen it has to be said).

AlanS
01-06-2010, 11:26
Judging by the comments made on various forums over the last nine months or so about the Caiman, I am not surprised that many customers are surprised the DAC delivers the goods and more.

As for your views on details becoming more noticeable because of the likelihood that people get accustomed to the DAC ( I have condensed your essay to just a few words): you are misguided. The quick way to check that out is to take the DAC out of the audio chain and play back the same track(s). With and without the DAC in circuit it should be quite audible if the brain is being fooled or the ears are hearing a difference.

As I said you are understandably welcoming of the publicity. Please do not derogatorily characterise my post as an essay when the voluminous output from your satisfied customer exceeds mine by several orders, it looks like you are attacking/overly defensive towards someone who is not content to just read and believe.

All I have tried to do is determine if the happy customer is in an unchanging environment or what we now discover.

I am not in the market for a DAC nor do I wish to decry yours or anyother DAC product. I wish you well with your sales. I am more than happy with what I have currently, though I know it can be improved upon.

There are enough members here who gain significant improvements from minor changes in system setup to recognise that improvements are obtained in multiple ways. We recently had no aircraft flying, it is amazing how that improved the low level detail of my system for example.

StanleyB
01-06-2010, 11:41
As I said you are understandably welcoming of the publicity. Please do not derogatorily characterise my post as an essay when the voluminous output from your satisfied customer exceeds mine by several orders, it looks like you are attacking/overly defensive towards someone who is not content to just read and believe.
Do I detect a liberal dose of envy on your part with regards to the overwhelming success of the Caiman? By implicitly dragging my name into your rant against the Caiman you have invited me to comment on your quite obvious attempt to discredit the product and the positive findings of all those who have only good words to say about the product. When you mention the word 'derogatorily' it comes across as if you are standing on your peddle stool and intend to talk down anyone who is not in support of your stance.
Are you a disgruntled competitor by any chance?

AlanS
01-06-2010, 14:45
Do I detect a liberal dose of envy on your part with regards to the overwhelming success of the Caiman?

What on earth are you on about why should I be envious (liberal or not) about something I have no need of. Your detection skills are a bit Monday morning here. I haven't any idea about sales volumes for your product or other measures of what are regarded as success. But you are welcome to the free advertising.



By implicitly dragging my name into your rant against the Caiman you have invited me to comment on your quite obvious attempt to discredit the product and the positive findings of all those who have only good words to say about the product. When you mention the word 'derogatorily' it comes across as if you are standing on your peddle stool and intend to talk down anyone who is not in support of your stance.

Interesting that you interpret querying if the listening environment has changed as an "obvious attempt to discredit the product". Your sense of obviousness is interesting given all I have queried is the listening environment and it's affect on what is heard. I am not attacking the DAC or anything else just try to get some idea of the circumstance the listener is using to draw his conclusions. I will leave other members to see the irony in your wordings exaggerative style and sweeping generalisation.



Are you a disgruntled competitor by any chance?

Err No, nor a likely customer if ever I want a DAC after your overly defensive post.

For what it is worth I wish you every commercial success with the product.

magiccarpetride
01-06-2010, 15:22
Moving book shelves and sofas are fairly big things and certainly not day to day in my house...

Pardon me for asking something that is certainly none of my business but: are you by any chance married? If so, haven't you noticed how wives tend to rearrange the living quarters, at least once a month;)

Joe
01-06-2010, 15:25
Pardon me for asking something that is certainly none of my business but: are you by any chance married? If so, haven't you noticed how wives tend to rearrange the living quarters, at least once a month;)

I'm married. My wife never moves anything. The bookcases are fixed to the walls, and the sofas might as well be.

Marco
01-06-2010, 15:29
I'm married. My wife never moves anything.

That's right, and you'd kick her ass if she tried!!

Marco.

magiccarpetride
01-06-2010, 15:30
First I was not complaining though I can understand that a challenge to your thinking would be seen as a complaint. Having read so much about what you are ascribing to the DAC I was curious as to whether other things had changed in the listening environment. When you mentioned the pre-amp I got the sense that you were in fact making some changes.

Like it or not if you change the equipment used itself or the environment you listen to the system in then even if you wish to believe differences you hear at entirely due to the DAC you I suspect do accept that the other changes are not so minor as to be of NO EFFECT. Some members believe they get tangible difference by rerouting cables for example, that isn't a big change though.

I too have found more in a piece of music on listening to it a few days later, not because of burning in or anything like it. I put it down to becoming familiar with the piece and listening "through" the parts I have heard before to new things not previously noticed. I switch my stuff off each night, safety, economy and the environment so no burn in as you have it for me. But the room stays pretty much the same!

It is laudable that you are enjoying the product increasingly as you see it and I wish you well in so doing. Stan B must be appreciative of the publicity. I suspect anyone enquiring of the things I did will be perceived as complaining so how about Hamish's and Wazoo's probings/reactions to what I drew out?

Your complaints are valid. I again need to point out that there is nothing remotely close to scientific methodology in my approach. I am an unabashed subjectivist (read: I don't give a shit about objective factors in evaluating audio components).

That being said, I do acknowledge that various factors tend to influence the psycho-acoustics. For example, if I open the curtains in my living room, the sound changes, because I have four large windows and all that exposed glass affects the way the sound reverberates in the room.

However, I cannot always control that, because I don't live alone, and other family members have their needs (such as 'let the sunshine in', etc.)

Also, I live with three house pets, and they frolic around the house and keep coming in and out of the room as I'm listening. I cannot control that commotion, but it certainly affects the acoustics. Undeniably, adding or removing any substantial object in the listening room usually affects the overall room acoustics.

magiccarpetride
01-06-2010, 15:32
I'm married. My wife never moves anything. The bookcases are fixed to the walls, and the sofas might as well be.

Wow, that's fantastic! Where did you get such docile wife? Do they offer these features in the Russian Bride catalogue?

Joe
01-06-2010, 15:36
That's right, and you'd kick her ass if she tried!!

Marco.

Certainly not! The sofas are a two-person lift anyway. The other day, we were searching for some of Caroline's coursework that had gone astray, and we lifted the three-seater sofa, in case it had got under there. It hadn't, but we found an undeveloped roll of film that had gone missing after a holiday about three years ago.

We both 'suffer' from whatever the opposite of OCD is.

Marco
01-06-2010, 15:36
I am an unabashed subjectivist (read: I don't give a shit about objective factors in evaluating audio components).


Me neither! I think you'll fit in here nicely, Alex - in fact, you already have... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Joe
01-06-2010, 15:38
Wow, that's fantastic! Where did you get such docile wife? Do they offer these features in the Russian Bride catalogue?

I succeeded in what most people would have said was impossible, and married someone even more laid-back than me.

Marco
01-06-2010, 15:38
Certainly not!


Hahaha - I was kidding! :lol:

Marco.

magiccarpetride
01-06-2010, 15:38
As for your views on details becoming more noticeable because of the likelihood that people get accustomed to the DAC ( I have condensed your essay to just a few words): you are misguided. The quick way to check that out is to take the DAC out of the audio chain and play back the same track(s). With and without the DAC in circuit it should be quite audible if the brain is being fooled or the ears are hearing a difference.

Also, as I've explained in other threads, if getting 'accustomed' is a viable explanation, how come I'm not getting accustomed with other components? It is only with the Caiman that I'm experiencing this dramatic improvement with the burn-in. With any other components I've purchased, there is invariably a short introductory period (maximum a couple of days), after which the component settles in and stops surprising me. But this DAC continues to surprise me even after four weeks of intense listening to it:)

Joe
01-06-2010, 15:40
Hahaha - I was kidding! :lol:

Marco.

I know! But Caroline's not someone to mess with. When she was a teenager, a bloke tried to snatch her handbag, and ended up with a broken wrist!

magiccarpetride
01-06-2010, 15:44
Err No, nor a likely customer if ever I want a DAC after your overly defensive post.

So let me see if I get this straight: we're all on a lookout for the best audio components we could afford, right? So let's say we come across a component that was built by a very crafty engineering team, and is very affordable, and just as we're about to take the plunge, we learn about some unpalatable (to us) personal traits of the guy who masterminded the component. We get into a bit of a verbal row with the guy, and then we swear off that component.

Childish?

Joe
01-06-2010, 15:46
I read of another audio designer that: 'He doesn't suffer fools gladly. Or at all'.

Marco
01-06-2010, 15:54
I know! But Caroline's not someone to mess with. When she was a teenager, a bloke tried to snatch her handbag, and ended up with a broken wrist!

Come on, if she was that tough she'd have been able to move the sofas all by herself!

Marco.

Gazjam
01-06-2010, 16:44
Also, as I've explained in other threads, if getting 'accustomed' is a viable explanation, how come I'm not getting accustomed with other components? It is only with the Caiman that I'm experiencing this dramatic improvement with the burn-in. With any other components I've purchased, there is invariably a short introductory period (maximum a couple of days), after which the component settles in and stops surprising me. But this DAC continues to surprise me even after four weeks of intense listening to it:)

I'm with Alex on this one, I've owned 3 of Stans Dacs and found similar burn in with them all to greater or lesser degrees...

(no, I'm not mad...) :ner:

AlanS
01-06-2010, 17:49
So let me see if I get this straight: we're all on a lookout for the best audio components we could afford, right? So let's say we come across a component that was built by a very crafty engineering team, and is very affordable, and just as we're about to take the plunge, we learn about some unpalatable (to us) personal traits of the guy who masterminded the component. We get into a bit of a verbal row with the guy, and then we swear off that component.

Childish?

Thanks for painting the picture of your domestic environment, it helped. I am sure I have said it before but I am not looking for a DAC so not straight.
My interest has been your mate who heard nothing until you drew his attention to the dac. I love human nature and friendship.
Enjoy your Caiman I dont doubt it sounds good.

magiccarpetride
01-06-2010, 18:46
My interest has been your mate who heard nothing until you drew his attention to the dac.

Yeah, isn't that something? I mean, we're talking someone who's devoted many years of his life to focused listening, and yet not being able to detect any difference? Come on!

It does raise some eyebrows, doesn't it? One thing I haven't seen here is any sign of introspection. No one here asked themselves (at least not publicly): would it be possible that the same thing happen to me? Say if a friend pulled a similar stunt on me, would I also be caught with my pants down?

I know, it's an uneasy and uncomfortable question, but if you're in search for truth, you owe it to yourself to ask such questions. I, for one, have been asking such probing question to myself. Maybe this is all just a case of severe psycho-acoustics, maybe I'm just psyching myself into hearing more and more, whilst others, such as my friend, fail to hear anything. Could this merely be a placebo?

AlanS
01-06-2010, 21:03
Maybe consider a landscape picture, photo or painting. I never take in every detail at first viewing. Each subsequent viewing I see more details but never all at once. Each reviewing I appreciate more as I scan the picture. It was all there waiting for me to become aware of it.
Same sort of thing happens with orchestral music.
We digest in pieces.

The Vinyl Adventure
01-06-2010, 21:47
I have to say, alan has some well balanced and interesting points ... I'm as much a subjectavist to the next man (here) and I have indeed experienced break in on my caiman and 7520 as well as my amps but the control of the experience you have had alex is to ... Well uncontrolled to be entierly valid to me. I have had some very profound differences in my system only very recently from moving my lounge around - even things as minor as taking the rug out to be cleaned. The psyco acoustic effects of telling a mate you have changed a part of your system seem obvious to me ... I dunno... I'm not even sur what all these threads are about! The one upside of all this is the knowledge for me that there is someone even more neurotic about their kit than me ;) ad a side note, I am glad your pleased and I am vastly more interested in magnepans from your posts...

Joe
01-06-2010, 21:56
I'm glad I'm just a 'plonk it down and listen' type.

magiccarpetride
01-06-2010, 22:11
I have to say, alan has some well balanced and interesting points ... I'm as much a subjectavist to the next man (here) and I have indeed experienced break in on my caiman and 7520 as well as my amps but the control of the experience you have had alex is to ... Well uncontrolled to be entierly valid to me. I have had some very profound differences in my system only very recently from moving my lounge around - even things as minor as taking the rug out to be cleaned. The psyco acoustic effects of telling a mate you have changed a part of your system seem obvious to me ... I dunno... I'm not even sur what all these threads are about! The one upside of all this is the knowledge for me that there is someone even more neurotic about their kit than me ;) ad a side note, I am glad your pleased and I am vastly more interested in magnepans from your posts...

Hamish, the point of the thread (which only a select few seem to have gotten) is my personal bewilderment over the fact that a seasoned audiophile, who knows by heart how my systems sounds, could not detect such major, revolutionary change as adding an external DAC! This fiasco kept me wondering out loud: how's that possible? Here we have a person who claims that he can easily detect when you change your speaker wires, and yet he couldn't detect a brand new, very temperamental, and by all accounts, very seductive, even stunning DAC.

The thread then deteriorated into the less consequential discussion about the real and imaginary benefits of the Caiman burn-in, which is a completely misplaced topic.

As far as my Magneplanar speakers (i.e. Maggies) go, I can tell you that with other speakers, the Caiman is not nearly as revealing as it is with the Maggies. I've briefly swapped Maggies with my old Castle Inversion speakers, and they sounded so bad in comparison, that it broke my heart. Upon hearing the Castle speakers, and after being so spoiled with the Maggies, my wife screamed: "Take those speakers off, quickly!"

The level of musical detail that the Caiman brings to the table can only be fully appreciated if one is listening through ultra fast, non-boxy speakers such as Magneplanar or good electrostatics. I feel that most other cone speakers are too sluggish to be able to fully catch on with what the Caiman is doing.

magiccarpetride
01-06-2010, 22:12
I'm glad I'm just a 'plonk it down and listen' type.

So you're one of those countless dudes with the white wires hanging out of their ears?

The Grand Wazoo
01-06-2010, 23:08
The level of musical detail that the Caiman brings to the table can only be fully appreciated if one is listening through ultra fast, non-boxy speakers such as Magneplanar or good electrostatics. I feel that most other cone speakers are too sluggish to be able to fully catch on with what the Caiman is doing.


That's a pretty bold statement - how many other pairs of speakers have you tried it with?

AlanS
02-06-2010, 11:17
Hamish, the point of the thread (which only a select few seem to have gotten) is my personal bewilderment over the fact that a seasoned audiophile, who knows by heart how my systems sounds, could not detect such major, revolutionary change as adding an external DAC! This fiasco kept me wondering out loud: how's that possible? Here we have a person who claims that he can easily detect when you change your speaker wires, and yet he couldn't detect a brand new, very temperamental, and by all accounts, very seductive, even stunning DAC.

The thread then deteriorated into the less consequential discussion about the real and imaginary benefits of the Caiman burn-in, which is a completely misplaced topic.

As far as my Magneplanar speakers (i.e. Maggies) go, I can tell you that with other speakers, the Caiman is not nearly as revealing as it is with the Maggies. I've briefly swapped Maggies with my old Castle Inversion speakers, and they sounded so bad in comparison, that it broke my heart. Upon hearing the Castle speakers, and after being so spoiled with the Maggies, my wife screamed: "Take those speakers off, quickly!"

The level of musical detail that the Caiman brings to the table can only be fully appreciated if one is listening through ultra fast, non-boxy speakers such as Magneplanar or good electrostatics. I feel that most other cone speakers are too sluggish to be able to fully catch on with what the Caiman is doing.

Does this mean I may have moved from childish to the select few - if so I am confused.

Thanks for expanding on the speaker change and it's effect. How much do you think the amp which you are keen to replace has contributed to this almost constant series of revelations and changes? Is it well suited to the Magneplanars? I have only heard Quad electrostatics so have no insight. What sort of volume level to you use or does it vary according to this and that?

Despite the opinions of me that have been posted by yourself and others I don't doubt the Caiman is a good DAC and has offered you the amazement you have experienced. I have also seen less positive comments about the Caiman on other forums but they were not damning just more could be bettered. I am neutral on it as I have no immediate need for a DAC.

Interested in your introspections too (post Yesterday 07:46 PM). It is good to consider all possibilities.

Thanks for working with me on some background so i could build a picture of your listening environment and perhaps see how I might respond if listening there.

I guess your friend was distracted the first time, maybe had other things on his mind (not shared) so was not listening with consideration of what was going on - he was being sociable more than a critical listener. The second time you focused him on critical mode. I have been at friends and thought something was "different" about their system but do not always say so, enjoying the music too much.

Best wishes

Joe
02-06-2010, 11:30
So you're one of those countless dudes with the white wires hanging out of their ears?

No; I'm one of the countless dudes who've learned to stop fussing and just enjoy the music.

Werner Berghofer
02-06-2010, 12:15
I'm one of the countless dudes who've learned to stop fussing and just enjoy the music.Be assured: You’re not alone ;-)

Codifus
02-06-2010, 16:01
As far as my Magneplanar speakers (i.e. Maggies) go, I can tell you that with other speakers, the Caiman is not nearly as revealing as it is with the Maggies. I've briefly swapped Maggies with my old Castle Inversion speakers, and they sounded so bad in comparison, that it broke my heart. Upon hearing the Castle speakers, and after being so spoiled with the Maggies, my wife screamed: "Take those speakers off, quickly!"


I'm curious...did you spend time to get your speakers to find their right spot in the room?

When I first received my speakers I think it took a week to zero in on the sweet spot. Every once in a while I dabble and move my speakers, most recently about 1/4 of an inch forward. That move opened up the top end a bit, but bass lost its growl and was just "there." As usual, I always wind up moving them back.

Just a half inche of displacement from the sweet spot in a room can turn a speaker from lousy into wonderful.

CD

magiccarpetride
02-06-2010, 16:37
No; I'm one of the countless dudes who've learned to stop fussing and just enjoy the music.

In that case, what the hell are you doing on this forum?

magiccarpetride
02-06-2010, 16:46
I'm curious...did you spend time to get your speakers to find their right spot in the room?

When I first received my speakers I think it took a week to zero in on the sweet spot. Every once in a while I dabble and move my speakers, most recently about 1/4 of an inch forward. That move opened up the top end a bit, but bass lost its growl and was just "there." As usual, I always wind up moving them back.

Just a half inche of displacement from the sweet spot in a room can turn a speaker from lousy into wonderful.

CD

Big time. With Maggies, it seems even more critical than with the cabinet speakers (Maggies do not have a box). I also find that the tilt angle makes a huge difference, even if we're talking minor adjustments, sometimes barely visible to the naked eye.

Also, slight adjustments to the toe-in make audible difference.

Because Maggies are dipolar (read: they project the sound at equal volumes both toward the listener, and toward the wall behind them), it is critical to make sure that the soundwaves, both the ones hurling straight toward the listener, and the ones that are bouncing off the wall behind the speakers and then hurling toward the listener, are shifted in phase by approximately 10 milliseconds. Once you achieve that phase shifting, you gain stunning soundstage that is rendered with holographic precision.

Different rooms will require different positioning in order for the picture to snap into focus. It depends on many factors, but I feel the most prominent one to be the nature of the wall behind the speakers. How absorbent vs. how echoey the wall is, and also if you've applied any sound treatments to it (i.e. casually throwing a Turkish rug etc.)

Joe
02-06-2010, 18:11
In that case, what the hell are you doing on this forum?

I got kicked off the objectivist one.

magiccarpetride
02-06-2010, 18:25
I got kicked off the objectivist one.

Ah, another subjectivista!

dave2010
03-06-2010, 09:59
When I first received my speakers I think it took a week to zero in on the sweet spot.

Just a half inch(e) of displacement from the sweet spot in a room can turn a speaker from lousy into wonderful.

I find the notion that half an inch of displacement can make such a significant difference questionable, particularly on bass, though perhaps in some circumstances it could. Lowering a speaker from a table or stand on to the floor can make a substantial difference - often increasing the bass, and I suppose if there were cavities formed between a speaker and the floor that could screw things up. If the speakers are in a corner, then volume effects may become more apparent, and then I could just about believe that small(ish) displacements would have an effect. Half an inch still seems very little to me, given the wavelengths (~20ft or more?) involved.

However, if you feel the differences are audible for you, I'm not going to argue.

StanleyB
03-06-2010, 10:15
I find the notion that half an inch of displacement can make such a significant difference questionable, particularly on bass, though perhaps in some circumstances it could.
Make your mind up Dave. It's one or the other ;).

dave2010
03-06-2010, 11:23
Make your mind up Dave. It's one or the other ;).Hi Stan

OK - I don't believe half an inch shift can make a significant difference to the bass, providing that there are no cavities involved, and even then probably not.

I see you don't believe in fuzzy logic :)

bws

magiccarpetride
03-06-2010, 15:42
That's a pretty bold statement - how many other pairs of speakers have you tried it with?

OK, my bad, should've said "most cone speakers I've listened to". Thanks for correcting me:)

Themis
03-06-2010, 18:08
It's frustrating to say, but I noticed no more burn-in after two-three days on my Caiman, nor on anything at all, tbh, with the exception of some speakers.
I must confess of not trying hard to notice anything either. :)

dave2010
07-06-2010, 06:14
It's frustrating to say, but I noticed no more burn-in after two-three days on my Caiman, nor on anything at all, tbh, with the exception of some speakers.
I must confess of not trying hard to notice anything either. :)I've always taken this burn-in thing with a few pounds of salt. However, in the case of the Caiman I think it happens. Quite why I don't know, and Stan, who's in a better position than most of us, says that he can test for it. I've never noticed this with any other electrical/electronic product. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and it's only through coming to these boards that I've even suspected that it could through the use of different components etc.

On the other hand, I think some claims are just wild and unscientific. Got to go now to burn in some more mains cable, and a few thousand millions of electrons.

nb2
07-06-2010, 14:32
I've always taken this burn-in thing with a few pounds of salt. However, in the case of the Caiman I think it happens. Quite why I don't know, and Stan, who's in a better position than most of us, says that he can test for it. I've never noticed this with any other electrical/electronic product. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and it's only through coming to these boards that I've even suspected that it could through the use of different components etc.

On the other hand, I think some claims are just wild and unscientific. Got to go now to burn in some more mains cable, and a few thousand millions of electrons.

I didn't notice burning in with the TC-7520.

For speakers, the phenomenon is well known and understood.
We know why there is improvement with mechanical burning in, and why in the end, there may be degradation as time goes on.

If you notice burning in for electronics (not warming up, and in my opinion, quick warming up is a quality, slow warming up is a annoying problem), and cannot explain it, we should fear this mysterious evolution can soon result in a degradation instead of an improvement ...
Pro Audio electronics must work within given tolerance.
Over the time, if this evolves, and if you go outside tolerances, the item is considered as faulty and replaced.

Comsat
21-06-2010, 13:41
+ 1

I've always taken this burn-in thing with a few pounds of salt. However, in the case of the Caiman I think it happens. Quite why I don't know, and Stan, who's in a better position than most of us, says that he can test for it. I've never noticed this with any other electrical/electronic product. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and it's only through coming to these boards that I've even suspected that it could through the use of different components etc.

On the other hand, I think some claims are just wild and unscientific. Got to go now to burn in some more mains cable, and a few thousand millions of electrons.

Comsat
21-06-2010, 13:41
+1 :scratch:

I didn't notice burning in with the TC-7520.

For speakers, the phenomenon is well known and understood.
We know why there is improvement with mechanical burning in, and why in the end, there may be degradation as time goes on.

If you notice burning in for electronics (not warming up, and in my opinion, quick warming up is a quality, slow warming up is a annoying problem), and cannot explain it, we should fear this mysterious evolution can soon result in a degradation instead of an improvement ...
Pro Audio electronics must work within given tolerance.
Over the time, if this evolves, and if you go outside tolerances, the item is considered as faulty and replaced.

Comsat
21-06-2010, 13:51
I've changed my power amp (Cyrus X power) and some cabling so that I've now completely lost track of further developments of the Caiman. Quite a relief to be able to focus on the music, and nothing but the music, for a while again.

The DACmagic and UCD power amps were sold with a little profit so that the music is accompanied by a good wine. What more could one wish for?

The Caiman is here to stay, at least till Stan comes up with a remote controlled version.