Beresford Caiman DAC -- first impressions (and a question)

[magiccarpetride]

Hello everyone,

I'm a new guy on this forum. Decided to join you after my Caiman arrived yesterday (I see a lot of really good discussion on this DAC already transpired here). The arrival of this DAC got me so excited yesterday that I couldn't resist and jumped right in to give it a good listen, without allowing it a fighting chance to properly burn in.

I won't bore you with the gushing praises -- this DAC is simply amazing (even straight out of the box). I just have one question: I am finding that Caiman sounds muffled in the upper register (compared to the built-in Squeezebox DAC). Is that typical? Will that go away with burn in?

My system: Logitech Squeezebox Duet into Caiman via digital coax, fixed outputs into DSP 200s preamp, then into DPA 200s power amp, driving Magneplanar MG1 IMP speakers.

Nice to meet ya'll, and thanks for any help you care to toss this way!

[Themis]

Hi there,

my Caiman took three days to give its full potential. Try and be patient. ;)

[Alex_UK]

200 hours (I think) is Stanley's recommendation, which equates well with the 7-10 days I found it took to blossom - though "muffled in the upper register" wasn't something I experienced before burn in (bass light and a bit too bright, I would have said.)

Do pop in to the welcome section and introduce yourself properly if you get the chance, please - let us know a bit about yourself and your music tastes.

[magiccarpetride]

200 hours (I think) is Stanley's recommendation, which equates well with the 7-10 days I found it took to blossom - though "muffled in the upper register" wasn't something I experienced before burn in (bass light and a bit too bright, I would have said.)

Do pop in to the welcome section and introduce yourself properly if you get the chance, please - let us know a bit about yourself and your music tastes.

Thanks Alex. Funny, seems like i've experienced the exact opposite first impressions -- in your case, a bit too bright, in my case a bit too muffled:)

Thanks also for reminding me to introduce myself -- I just did it in the welcome section, hope that would be helpful for other members who would like to chat with me.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Is shouldn't worry about the caiman so so after it birth(?) I'm sure it will grown into it's stride!

[The Grand Wazoo]

.........could just be it's (English?) accent.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I seem to remember stan having a quite unenglish accent, he phoned me once to say he was sending out a replacement dac "hi it's stan..." or... "Stanley" I cant remember...I heard, well, you know when you get that 'i definatly know a stan, I've been talking to a stan recently.... Oh stan!!!" thing go through your head... Well the accent definatly exaserbated matters.... .... I'm pretty sure that happend and I didn't dream it anyway....

[The Vinyl Adventure]

That all under the notion that he passes his accent, if he has one, on to his dacs.... .... I really should get some sleep, it's been a long day!

[Stratmangler]

Hi Alex

Have you tried using your Caiman as preamp yet - I saw your post on the Slim forum, and my thoughts are that something is not gelling in your system.
There are variable outputs on the Caiman that are controlled by the volume potentiometer (that's knob , for all the plebs amongst us;)).

:cool:

[Alex_UK]

I seem to remember stan having a quite unenglish accent, he phoned me once to say he was sending out a replacement dac "hi it's stan..." or... "Stanley" I cant remember...I heard, well, you know when you get that 'i definatly know a stan, I've been talking to a stan recently.... Oh stan!!!" thing go through your head... Well the accent definatly exaserbated matters.... .... I'm pretty sure that happend and I didn't dream it anyway....

I don't think it was a dream Hamish - I spoke on the phone to Stan (I ordered a 7520 on the day the Caiman was released) and I'm 99% positive he isn't native of Peckham or Shoreditch (etc, ad infinitum) despite living in London currently. ;)

[Stratmangler]

I don't think it was a dream Hamish - I spoke on the phone to Stan (I ordered a 7520 on the day the Caiman was released) and I'm 99% positive he isn't native of Peckham or Shoreditch (etc, ad infinitum) despite living in London currently. ;)

Oh ye all of poor memory - do you not remember Stan's comments of his childhood in South America ?
Where do Caiman come from ?

[magiccarpetride]

Hi Alex

Have you tried using your Caiman as preamp yet - I saw your post on the Slim forum, and my thoughts are that something is not gelling in your system.
There are variable outputs on the Caiman that are controlled by the volume potentiometer (that's knob , for all the plebs amongst us;)).

:cool:

Hi Chris,

No, haven't tried variable outputs on Caiman (although I'm thinking about that a lot). Question: would variable outs compromise the sound quality?

[StanleyB]

Question: would variable outs compromise the sound quality?If you have a separate pre and power amp, then using the Caiman as a preamp you'll hear more detail, get wider dynamics, and have more soundstage. Not everyone enjoys such a rapid change in their musical experience with their existing setup. Some people prefer to add those kind of changes by adding more expensive equipment to their setup, instead of using the Caiman to save them money :scratch:.

[Ali Tait]

It may be that the Caiman is just showing up the Duet.I've had a quick listen to the Duet (and it was only quick) and that was my immediate impression-a dull sound.

[Peter Galbavy]

I would add my voice to those saying to try the Caiman as a preamp. While I need a preamp vinyl (currently a Numark digital mixer - sounds better than the Audiolab 8000C to me) I usually move cables and play the Caimain variable straight into the power amp. Much more muchness.

[bmartins]

I also use my Caiman as a preamp into a Quad 303 (just re-capped and re-PSUed with Net-Audio gear) and it sounds superb! …and I’m using the original Caiman PSU (only 12V I think…)

[StanleyB]

…and I’m using the original Caiman PSU (only 12V I think…)
Send me by PM your email address and I shall sort you out with an invoice for the Caiman psu.

[Stratmangler]

Hi Chris,

No, haven't tried variable outputs on Caiman (although I'm thinking about that a lot). Question: would variable outs compromise the sound quality?

I'm with the majority on this one - it's an improvement in my case.

I have an integrated amp, but the pre and power sections are connected by jumpers. Remove the jumpers and connect the Caiman directly to the power stage & the resolution etc. takes a step up to the plate.

[Codifus]

If you have a separate pre and power amp, then using the Caiman as a preamp you'll hear more detail, get wider dynamics, and have more soundstage. Not everyone enjoys such a rapid change in their musical experience with their existing setup. Some people prefer to add those kind of changes by adding more expensive equipment to their setup, instead of using the Caiman to save them money :scratch:.

HA! Save money?

When I pulled the jumpers on my Yamaha amp to connect my 7520 directly, the jump in sound quality was significant, and it made me hungry for more power.
Now my 7520 is driving a Behringer EP2000, an amp with way more power than I willl ever, ever need. My speakers will die. My speakers will die. But they will die in a glorious, music filled crescendo of happiness:)

By the way, are you thinking of making a Caiman or 7520 with balanced outputs?

That would be a great feature to add.


CD

[Butuz]

My 7520 makes a fantastic pre amp (blew my old pre away into the cuboard :D) so I would love to hear what the Caiman does!!! :D

Butuz

[magiccarpetride]

If you have a separate pre and power amp, then using the Caiman as a preamp you'll hear more detail, get wider dynamics, and have more soundstage. Not everyone enjoys such a rapid change in their musical experience with their existing setup. Some people prefer to add those kind of changes by adding more expensive equipment to their setup, instead of using the Caiman to save them money :scratch:.

Thanks Stanley. I am using DSP 200s as a preamp into DPA 200s power amp (they are DPA separates). It has long been my hunch that if I could only ditch my preamp, I'd stand to gain substantial clearly audible improvements in the sound clarity. After all, the shorter the audio chain is from the source signal to the speakers, the less of a chance to mess things up, innit?

I was thinking about getting just an attenuator (since I'm only using my power amp with one source), but then read that these little beasts are quite problematic with regards to balance (i.e. it's a challenge to get both left and right channel to attenuate equally as we turn the volume knob up and down). So I gave up on that little scheme.

Now I'm getting extra excited to hear that Caiman is well positioned to allow me to ditch my preamp (it was originally selling for 750 GBP)! Additional question: is the attenuator (the volume knob and the controls behind it) active or passive?

[magiccarpetride]

It may be that the Caiman is just showing up the Duet.I've had a quick listen to the Duet (and it was only quick) and that was my immediate impression-a dull sound.

My issue is the exact opposite: that standalone Duet sounds less dull in the high range! Bypassing Duet's DAC and going straight into Caiman makes the highs seem, I don't know how to put it... well, dull.

It could be that Caiman hasn't burnt in properly yet. I'm having it now on a full 24/7 repeat, so we'll see (hear) in a couple of days (I'm now at the 40th hour of burn in).

Or, it could be that what I'm experiencing right now as Caiman dullness is in actuality merely a lack of audible distortion, the one that Duet's DAC produces in spades in the high range. After being conditioned (read: tortured) with digital harshness for more than 20 years, I guess there is a possibility that I'm craving more abuse:) And this darn Caiman, being so polite and gentlemanly, refuses to abuse my ears!

[Ali Tait]

Yes,give it a chance to burn in.As for using the Beresford as a pre,good as it is,I have a modded 7510,I'd be surprised if it was better then the DPA.They made good kit.By all means try it and see.If it is substantially better I'd suggest maybe some components need renewing.

[chrism]

The Beresford Caiman is the best preamp I have ever owned and I have gone through a few inc a Naim 52/Super. I have done the Rubycons and Murata's and gone for a well designed linear supply.

I use the Caiman variable out into an Avondale A260 power amp and they are capable of delivering a very real and exiting pure sound without the usual high note fatigue.

The modded SB Classic and Spower supply that Ian sorted for me is icing on the cake.

Regards

Chris

[StanleyB]

The TC-7520 and Caiman are formidable preamps for various reasons. There are less than 5 components between the output of the line opamp and the audio output socket. Compared that to a 'regular' preamp, which has several times that amount in terms of components. Each component in the signal path adds to the loss of SQ, which can only be reduced through signal feedback.

[leo]

The Caimans output SQ blows my Duets analogue outs away IMHO, the Duet has been modified too

[Themis]

It's not the Croft, but the Caiman output stage has an excellent SQ ratio. I doubt there are a lot of solid-state preamps that better it.

[dave2010]

I was sceptical about burn in when I fired mine up, but Stan assures us iit really happens (being the one who is best placed to make the experiments). I can say that even allowing for the fact that I think my ears got adjusted to the Caiman, I'm sure it has become better over a period of several weeks. If you've only had yours a few days I'd wait longer. Just sit back and enjoy whatever you're playing.

[magiccarpetride]

I was sceptical about burn in when I fired mine up, but Stan assures us iit really happens (being the one who is best placed to make the experiments). I can say that even allowing for the fact that I think my ears got adjusted to the Caiman, I'm sure it has become better over a period of several weeks. If you've only had yours a few days I'd wait longer. Just sit back and enjoy whatever you're playing.

Had a chat with a veteran audiophile friend of mine who also works for a high end audio store, and he told me that he is advising his customers that a proper burn in time for DACs and other electronic equipment is close to 40 days! In other words, in his opinion, it is unfair to make any judgment calls about the sound quality before you know that your component has burnt 40 days worth of music! (that's almost 1,000 hours!)

Extreme? I'm not sure what to think of it...

[Stratmangler]

Had a chat with a veteran audiophile friend of mine who also works for a high end audio store, and he told me that he is advising his customers that a proper burn in time for DACs and other electronic equipment is close to 40 days! In other words, in his opinion, it is unfair to make any judgment calls about the sound quality before you know that your component has burnt 40 days worth of music! (that's almost 1,000 hours!)

Extreme? I'm not sure what to think of it...

I'd listen to your friend.
My Caiman took an age to settle down.
Funnily enough my NAD amp takes an age to warm up too, although not in the same league as the Caiman.

I took my Caiman around to a friend's place a while back - it was unplugged for around about 40 minutes.
It sounded awful when plugged back in, and took the best part of a day to settle down again.
I had to repeat the run in all over again when I brought it home.

[magiccarpetride]

I'd listen to your friend.
My Caiman took an age to settle down.
Funnily enough my NAD amp takes an age to warm up too, although not in the same league as the Caiman.

I took my Caiman around to a friend's place a while back - it was unplugged for around about 40 minutes.
It sounded awful when plugged back in, and took the best part of a day to settle down again.
I had to repeat the run in all over again when I brought it home.

That is an interesting point. That same audiophile friend told me a similar thing. He claims that high quality audio chain is like a good wine -- it doesn't suffer perturbations that well. Takes ages to settle, and once settled in, should not be disturbed frivolously.

So I'll heed your advice, and make a mental note to self not to yank my Caiman and bring it over to a friend's house. At this price point, any budding audiophile shouldn't think twice before ordering the Caiman!

[Stratmangler]

Have you tried the Caiman straight into your poweramps yet ?

[magiccarpetride]

Have you tried the Caiman straight into your poweramps yet ?

No, wanted to give it a proper minimum three days (72 hours) burn in. This milestone will happen when I get home tonite.

Tonite, I will listen to Annie Lennox "A Whiter Shade of Pale" (one of my favorite tracks ever) through my DSP 200s preamp, and will then bypass the preamp and switch to Caiman's variable outs straight into my DPA 200s power amp. Will listen very attentively, will make the comparison notes, and will report back tomorrow.

Like a couple of other friends, I'm also very curious to see if I'll be able to detect any difference, and if so, if it'll be an improvement. One thing I've learned so far is that my Maggie speakers absolutely don't lie, they are very revealing, and whatever the change is (if at all substantial), Maggies will present it to my ears.

Question: can I disconnect the fixed outputs and reconnect to the variable preamp outputs while Caiman is turned on?

[Stratmangler]

Question: can I disconnect the fixed outputs and reconnect to the variable preamp outputs while Caiman is turned on?

I've done it - I just made sure that the volume control was set to zero.

I'm looking forward to reading about your impression of the Caiman as preamp.

[magiccarpetride]

I'm looking forward to reading about your impression of the Caiman as preamp.

Unfortunately, the experiment failed. As soon as I hooked variable outs from Caiman into the power amp, it created a very audible hum which prevented me from making any reasonable comparative listening.

Not sure why the hum, and couldn't get rid of it. Any ideas? (I'd really like to be able to evaluate Caiman as a preamp)

[Stratmangler]

Unfortunately, the experiment failed. As soon as I hooked variable outs from Caiman into the power amp, it created a very audible hum which prevented me from making any reasonable comparative listening.

Not sure why the hum, and couldn't get rid of it. Any ideas? (I'd really like to be able to evaluate Caiman as a preamp)

Sounds like some kind of grounding issue.

[Stratmangler]

You could try attaching a wire between your poweramp casework and the Caiman casework.
If you do this just be aware that it is possible to get an electrical belt from ground planes of differing potential, so caution is required.
I'm not saying that you will get a belt, just that there is an outside chance of it.

[Codifus]

Unfortunately, the experiment failed. As soon as I hooked variable outs from Caiman into the power amp, it created a very audible hum which prevented me from making any reasonable comparative listening.

Not sure why the hum, and couldn't get rid of it. Any ideas? (I'd really like to be able to evaluate Caiman as a preamp)

Is your stereo system also your video system? If so, chances are you have cable TV connected in your setup.

Temporarily dis-connect the cable.

If the hum goes away, then you have confirmed a classic ground-loop problem between cable TV electrical ground and your house electrical ground.

Solving it can be tricky. There are many methods. One method would be to have all your devices connected to the same power outlet. This would involve a power strip of course. Or you can strategically choose which components to plug in together to give a good balance and eliminate the hum at the same time.

Hope this helps!

CD

EDIT: I saw your other thread....2nd impressions of the Caiman. If you were impressed then, you'll be totally floored when you bypass your pre-amp:)

[magiccarpetride]

Is your stereo system also your video system? If so, chances are you have cable TV connected in your setup.

Temporarily dis-connect the cable.

If the hum goes away, then you have confirmed a classic ground-loop problem between cable TV electrical ground and your house electrical ground.

Solving it can be tricky. There are many methods. One method would be to have all your devices connected to the same power outlet. This would involve a power strip of course. Or you can strategically choose which components to plug in together to give a good balance and eliminate the hum at the same time.

Hope this helps!

CD

EDIT: I saw your other thread....2nd impressions of the Caiman. If you were impressed then, you'll be totally floored when you bypass your pre-amp:)

OK David, I think you've nailed it -- I do have a cable TV thrown into this rat's nest! That's gotta be it -- and I'm gonna try again tonight.

You got me totally drooling now with the promise of getting even better sound thru the Caiman preamp. I honestly can't imagine how will the sound possibly get any better than what I've experienced last night, but hey, that's why hi-fi is so addictive!

Thanks mate!

[magiccarpetride]

OK David, I think you've nailed it -- I do have a cable TV thrown into this rat's nest! That's gotta be it -- and I'm gonna try again tonight.

Sad to say, it didn't work:( I've removed the TV cable, but the hum persisted. It is very loud when the volume knob on Caiman is all the way down, and gets increasingly louder when I turn the volume up.

At this point, I'm lost. Nothing else hums in my audio chain, no matter how I hook things up. Only when I go from Caiman through the variable outs straight to the power amp do I get this idiotic hum.

Help, I really need to hear Caiman as a preamp!

[Stratmangler]

Alex

Would it be possible to post a photo of the type of mains plugs you use in BC these days ?
I'm 99% certain you've got grounding problems.

If you have multiple outlet mains boards, are the amps and the Caiman on the same one ?

[magiccarpetride]

Alex

Would it be possible to post a photo of the type of mains plugs you use in BC these days ?
I'm 99% certain you've got grounding problems.

If you have multiple outlet mains boards, are the amps and the Caiman on the same one ?

I was using a single extension bar for all the components (the Squeezebox, the Caiman, the DVD, the TV, the pre amp, the power amp), and the hum was there. Then I tried to plug the power amp into the wall socket, still got the same hum.

By 'mains plugs' you mean the wall socket, or the extension bar?

[Stratmangler]

By grounding problems, I mean that only when you try using the Caiman as pre then the problem of a ground difference arises.

On pro audio gear you often get a ground lift switch - if you'd got one on your poweramp then I'd suggest moving the switch to ground lift and see if the problem remains. Thing is you probably don't have a ground lift switch.

Fortunately your DAC is has started singing sweetly with the preamp in the system, so it's not really a problem any more.:)

[magiccarpetride]

By grounding problems, I mean that only when you try using the Caiman as pre then the problem of a ground difference arises.

On pro audio gear you often get a ground lift switch - if you'd got one on your poweramp then I'd suggest moving the switch to ground lift and see if the problem remains. Thing is you probably don't have a ground lift switch.

Fortunately your DAC is has started singing sweetly with the preamp in the system, so it's not really a problem any more.:)

True, I'm having trouble envisioning how could the music sound even better than it does right now (if only I had a dollar each time I've said that...)

Still, curiosity. Would like to hear for myself whether there'll be any audible difference/improvement if I use the Caiman as a preamp?

[Stratmangler]

Are you connecting your Squeezebox to the Caiman with coax ?
If so give optical a go.
Just a thought.;)

[StanleyB]

Only when I go from Caiman through the variable outs straight to the power amp do I get this idiotic hum.

Try the following: connect the bare ends of a piece of insulated wire between a screw on the bottom of the case of the Caiman and a screw on the power amp. This works in most cases on the majority of hum problems in audio systems.

[magiccarpetride]

Try the following: connect the bare ends of a piece of insulated wire between a screw on the bottom of the case of the Caiman and a screw on the power amp. This works in most cases on the majority of hum problems in audio systems.

Thanks Stan. Me not being very crafty with electrical stuff, I gotta ask: is this procedure risky, both in the sense of risky for my safety and risky for the equipment? Can I safely try that?

[StanleyB]

Thanks Stan. Me not being very crafty with electrical stuff, I gotta ask: is this procedure risky, both in the sense of risky for my safety and risky for the equipment? Can I safely try that?
It is risky. You could prick your fingers with the bare ends of the copper wire if it is multi strand.

[Stratmangler]

It is risky. You could prick your fingers with the bare ends of the copper wire if it is multi strand.

:D

Been there, seen it, done it, got the T shirt.

[magiccarpetride]

It is risky. You could prick your fingers with the bare ends of the copper wire if it is multi strand.

Wicked:)

[Peter Galbavy]

Copper wire splinters are a literal pain. But at least they are easy to remove. Speaking from vast experience.