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sum1
04-04-2010, 12:54
Hi Folks,

Just wondering if anyone here use their beresford dac primarily with a computer.
If so do you happen to encounter a clicking noise problem that pops up ONLY on the right channel out? The noise is especially evident on a 24/96 file.
Any M2tech hiface user using it with the caiman??

Currently i got this problem and i'm just curious if most people encounter this issue as well.

Basically with i've tried the following troubleshooting steps:

1.CD Player -> Caiman = Works fine with no clicking sound
2.PC USB -> Caiman USB = It regularly made a clicking sound
3.Laptop inbuilt soundcard Toslink -> Caiman = Still made clicking sound but its better than USB
4.Changing interconnect cable = Made no difference to the clicking problem
5.Changing Opamp = Made no difference to the clicking problem
6. 16 bit vs 24 bit foobar output settings on applicable output such laptop toslink= 16 bit output definitely reduces the clicking but its still there nonetheless. Strangely i think not only it reduces the frequency it also reduces the volume of the clicking noise.

I've asked Stan and he answered that it was "the 'end of track' mute command from the PC USB data command. The reason it seems to come only from the right side is because it is not a stereo signal, but just a set of bits. So the DAC decodes it as an unknown audio signal.
Some people have somehow managed to disble their PC from transmiting the mute command by setting the volume control bar in Windows to less than MAX. Why it works for them is a mystery, but is worth trying."

Unfortunately changing the volume as suggested by Stan made no difference for me so then i've tried some more stuff to diagnose this:

1.Laptop Creative XtremeAudio soundcard Toslink -> caiman = It Works fine even with 24/96 playback with no clicking sound but the SQ is not as good due to creative driver possibly adding some resampling or sound effects.
2.PC M2Tech Hiface -> caiman = very weird... this one IMO give a cleaner SQ but somehow the clicking noise is the worst with this connection :(

I would appreciate it if any regular PC+caiman users here can share their experience with me as i am quite puzzled at how picky the Caiman can be when paired with a computer transport :scratch:

Stratmangler
04-04-2010, 19:43
I primarily use my Caiman with a Squeezebox SB3.
I do on occasion use my laptop as source via the USB port.
I use Foobar2000 v1.1 , and I do not have any clicking problems on the right channel.
This is with 16/44.1 files and also 24/44.1 files.
I occasionally access Spotify on the laptop, again feeding the Caiman via USB, and again experience no problems.

Marc B
04-04-2010, 20:41
could be a change of sample/bit rates within the computer. Turn off the upsampling within the computer and make sure it's set to 16 bit / 44khz (usually on the audio device properties) Disable all the funny surround formats too.

Also , have you tried the following ... (stuff I used to do when setting a PC up as a DAW)

Change your pc to run background services (its in control panel, system properties on one of the tabs)

Mute any unused gubbins within the software mixer.. this goes for mic inputs, cd inputs , compressors, EQs, surround sound stuff etc.

Try kernal streaming, ASIO or WASAPI pluggins (depending on your windows version)

Try a shorter Foobar output latency (or a longer one)

Tick the "Give device exclusive control" boxes in the audio device properties.

Go to your harddrive settings in your device manager page and make sure they arent set to PIO (I think its DMA)

A few more tweeks for audio will pop into my head later and I'll add them to this,

try them for now and report back.

dave2010
04-04-2010, 21:42
sum1

Is the clicking noise actually on the right channel, or is it from the DAC itself?

My Caiman definitely makes clicking noises, sometimes quite a number, which is something to do with micro switches inside the unit. I'm not sure what triggers the switching - but I'm not sure that it actually causes a problem with the audio. If by any chance your DAC is on the RHS of your room, you may think the sounds are coming from your speakers.

In my case it hasn't yet bothered me enough, but if it does get that bad, I'd either do as you have done, seek advice, or alternatively sound proof the Caiman box in an enclosure. If this is a troublesome aspect of these DACs, then maybe we could ask Stan for a remedy.

You may of course have genuine clicks on the right hand channel signal. I can't say I've noticed any on mine, and that's using the USB input from the netbook I'm currently using to write this, while the DAC is replaying Sibelius.

sum1
05-04-2010, 06:00
Is the clicking noise actually on the right channel, or is it from the DAC itself?


The clicking noise i am talking about is from the right channel out and not the physical dac hardware. You would hear it from your speaker or headphone out of the dac.

I am aware of the dac muting circuit sound that comes out when you start/stop a music track but to me that one is not a problem.



could be a change of sample/bit rates within the computer. Turn off the upsampling within the computer and make sure it's set to 16 bit / 44khz (usually on the audio device properties) Disable all the funny surround formats too.

Also , have you tried the following ... (stuff I used to do when setting a PC up as a DAW)

Change your pc to run background services (its in control panel, system properties on one of the tabs)

Mute any unused gubbins within the software mixer.. this goes for mic inputs, cd inputs , compressors, EQs, surround sound stuff etc.

Try kernal streaming, ASIO or WASAPI pluggins (depending on your windows version)

Try a shorter Foobar output latency (or a longer one)

Tick the "Give device exclusive control" boxes in the audio device properties.

Go to your harddrive settings in your device manager page and make sure they arent set to PIO (I think its DMA)

A few more tweeks for audio will pop into my head later and I'll add them to this,

try them for now and report back.

Thanks for the suggestions. I've tried all the suggestions that you listed but unfortunately it made no difference. I usually use WASAPI but i've tried KS and ASIO4All as well and they dont seem to make a difference. So far i've tried the caiman with 2 laptop and 1 desktop and all of them produce this clicking noise :(

Regards,
Sonny

Marc B
05-04-2010, 07:16
you haven't got fade ins/outs turned on have you ? or your windows sounds turned on ?

I'm thinking that the switch of sample rates as it jumps from Foobar back to windows is causing it somehow?

I'd be thinking of sending it back by now to be honest, I had a Caiman for a few days to play with and used it via usb with foobar. I had no clicks at all.

sauhirt
05-04-2010, 10:07
I use Caiman only with pc, right now throuhg coax, but I've tried all 3 inputs and no clicking noise, no matter if it was USB, optical or coax. I think the problem is somewhere in your settings, not in Caiman. But I have definitely no idea how to solve it, it was very exhausting and difficult to set everything to my happiness. Windows quite sucks in this. You change one tiny thing and everything is destroyed and you can start right from the beginning.

Themis
05-04-2010, 11:27
Hi Sonny,

perhaps you could try with another Caiman to be sure where the problem comes from. There's no-one living near you having one ?

dave2010
05-04-2010, 17:12
Sonny

I've really not noticed any problems such as you describe and I've used my Caiman quite a lot via the USB+PC. However, I haven't tried high resolution files, with 24/96 characteristics. Maybe I should try to find some and see what happens.

dave2010
05-04-2010, 19:01
PS: Sonny

I checked the specification ** of the Caiman, and found the following:

"The USB input supports 32, 44.1, and 48 kHz sample rates. Maximum word length is 16-bits."

That could indicate possible problems with USB if you try feeding 24/96 or similar data via that link.

However, I also note that you still have the problems with other inputs, so you're not out of the woods yet.

Good luck.

** http://www.beresford.me/Downloads/Caiman_USB_Manual_Rev_3.pdf

Alex_UK
05-04-2010, 22:21
I only really use USB for basic internet radio and Spotify, or iTunes, no clicking problems at all - can't help other than to confirm you are a rarity! (I'm wondering if the Caiman is faulty, tbh, given the problem moves from laptop to laptop.)

sum1
06-04-2010, 01:35
you haven't got fade ins/outs turned on have you ? or your windows sounds turned on ?

I'm thinking that the switch of sample rates as it jumps from Foobar back to windows is causing it somehow?

I'd be thinking of sending it back by now to be honest, I had a Caiman for a few days to play with and used it via usb with foobar. I had no clicks at all.

I did not use any fade in/outs. As for windows sounds i've tried disabling them but sadly it did not make any difference.

If i live in the UK i would definitely send it back but unfortunately a quote for the postage fee from here in Australia to the UK will cost me ~GBP50 which is pretty big so its best for me to determine first if its a defect that is on my Caiman or its something else.


Hi Sonny,

perhaps you could try with another Caiman to be sure where the problem comes from. There's no-one living near you having one ?

Unfortunately i dont know anyone living near me that has a caiman.
Dimitri, did you end up getting the m2tech hiface. If so how does it work with the caiman playing 24/96 File. My experience of it is pretty bad with the clicking noise. You can get some free 24/96 file here in http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html


PS: Sonny

I checked the specification ** of the Caiman, and found the following:

"The USB input supports 32, 44.1, and 48 kHz sample rates. Maximum word length is 16-bits."
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Yep i am aware of that. The PCM2902 in the caiman is limited to 48khz. I got my laptop inbuilt toslink and the m2tech hiface as a high res transport


(I'm wondering if the Caiman is faulty, tbh, given the problem moves from laptop to laptop.)
I do have my suspicion on it being defective as well but i am just curious that if its defective then how come it works fine with the CD Player. So far I've actually only tried one cd player only with it and i might just try to see the problem is there with some other transport like a playstation or xbox to see if the problem is there.
Also when i ask Stan about this problem his reply sounded like this is more like a transport problem and there are others who experience this problem as well which confuses me again if its something that is normal or not


Seems like no here ever heard this clicking noise huh. I might just make a recording of it later on and upload it somewhere online so that you can have a listen to it and see if its something recognisable. I am just wondering if maybe its because its clipping but then again i dont really know what a clipping noise sound like. When i ask Stan on email about it his repl

MaCs
06-04-2010, 14:54
I have exactly the same problem (clicks on one channel with 24 bit files). I also use a Beresford Caiman. Everything is fine with 16 bits. I wonder if it could be related with the signal from the computer. I use onboard spdif signal from an Asus P6T SE motherboard. It has the Realtek ALC1200 audio chip.

MaCs
06-04-2010, 14:56
I do have my suspicion on it being defective as well but i am just curious that if its defective then how come it works fine with the CD Player. So far I've actually only tried one cd player only with it and i might just try to see the problem is there with some other transport like a playstation or xbox to see if the problem is there.

My guess is that it works fine with the CD player because it is 16 bit signal.

dave2010
06-04-2010, 19:20
I'm still working on this. I've downloaded some of the hi-res files from the site (2L) mentioned earlier. I have managed to play them, and they sound very good, though a couple of files seem to present my network with problems causing buffering. It is I suppose possible that my Squeezebox will tinker with the bits and the sample rate - but whatever it does it sounds pretty good. I'm slightly suspicious as I've also manged to play a 192kHz file, which might be outside the spec of the Squeezebox, and should definitely be outside the spec of the Caiman, so either the manuals are lying, or the data got downsampled somewhere along the way - but what did that?

Next test is to see what they're like out of the USB interface. No sign of any clicks though. [Just tried this - no sign of clicks, though sound maybe a bit hard. On my machine the USB is via the driver which I believe restricts the data to 16 bits.]

I could also revisit DVD-A, which I think is at 24/96. I have several DVD-As which I've played before via the Caiman. They sound great, and unless the DVD player is doing something unexpected, they should defiinitely be 24 bit 96 kHz, or similarly high resolution.

SACD isn't feasible, because of the d*** silly restriction on the digital output. If I had an AV receiver with HDMI it might be possible to do something - though probably just couldn't actually pass through a signal to the Caiman. Not sure if it's possible to do anything with computers which have HDMI to get round this.

To date I've not heard any clicks - which I assume are not just minor ticks, and which I hope are frequent enough that I'd notice within minutes. It's starting to look to me as though you have a specific problem with your unit or configuration.

If you were in the UK I'd suggest going to see Stan, or at least discussing this on the phone, but clearly you have a problem with that. You could try phoning him on Skype though. There has to be some way of getting a diagnosis on this - and then you could decide whether to try again with another one, or have it sent back for repair/modification or some other strategy. If it works OK on some data, then sell it on eBay to someone who doesn't need the highest level of resolution, and get another one sent out.

sum1
07-04-2010, 09:13
I have exactly the same problem (clicks on one channel with 24 bit files). I also use a Beresford Caiman. Everything is fine with 16 bits. I wonder if it could be related with the signal from the computer. I use onboard spdif signal from an Asus P6T SE motherboard. It has the Realtek ALC1200 audio chip.

Ah finally there is someone other than me that hear this as well. Actually your experience is exactly the same the one here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4670

My fix for the clicking sound is not as easy as choosing 24/16 bit its more like choosing the spdif converter for it. On my laptop the Creative XtremeAudio notebook produces no click at all with the caiman even with 24/96 file although the sound of it i think is worst than the realtek spdif output.


I'm still working on this. I've downloaded some of the hi-res files from the site (2L) mentioned earlier. I have managed to play them, and they sound very good, though a couple of files seem to present my network with problems causing buffering. It is I suppose possible that my Squeezebox will tinker with the bits and the sample rate - but whatever it does it sounds pretty good. I'm slightly suspicious as I've also manged to play a 192kHz file, which might be outside the spec of the Squeezebox, and should definitely be outside the spec of the Caiman, so either the manuals are lying, or the data got downsampled somewhere along the way - but what did that?


To date I've not heard any clicks - which I assume are not just minor ticks, and which I hope are frequent enough that I'd notice within minutes. It's starting to look to me as though you have a specific problem with your unit or configuration.


Thanks for trying out all the stuff Dave, appreciate it. If you are interested on hearing what the click is like i've uploaded a recording of my caiman output http://www.mediafire.com/?ynninzwlj3j
You can hear the click at around 0:13, 0:15 and 1:01 mark. That recording was done with USB -> caiman connection. The clicking is kinda weird actually as when i've tried different connection interface the volume of the clicking sound varies. The usb connection clicking sound is actually not that bad when compared to the clicking connection with the m2tech hiface


Actually i've tried started trying using it on my older xp laptop again and give the caiman usb and ASIO a try. Did not spend to much time about it but i think the click issue might have been reduced/disappear. ASIO/KS/DS did not do much difference on my Vista laptop but it might play nicely with XP system.

Sadly though the m2tech hiface still produces click sound with caiman on either the xp or vista system. I wonder what other m2tech hiface + caiman users experiences are. I know there are some member here who have both the caiman and m2tech hiface, maybe i should pm them :)

I'm not exactly sure what i stand here in terms of warranty support since i've opened the dac and swap opamps to investigate this clicking noise and to try the sound changes.

HighFidelityGuy
07-04-2010, 12:37
I've had some similar sounding problems in the past and I use a PC as main source.
I used to get occasional clicks or pops through the speakers with 16bit 44.1KHz files but lots of them with 24bit 96KHz files. This was when I was using some cheapo plastic core optical cables. Switching to a Mark Grant coax cable stopped the problem. I've since tried a Mark Grand glass core optical cable that also doesn't suffer from the problem. I put it down to the cheapo cables simply not having enough bandwidth to cope with the high bit rate signals and causing dropouts.

Mark's cables are very good value for the quality they offer, so I'd try one of his in whatever type you need and see if that helps. He offers a money back guarantee so there's no risk.

I'd also recommend checking the various settings on your PC like others have mentioned. :)

Vincent Kars
07-04-2010, 14:08
If the problem is caused by a mute signal send to the DAC, it might by a matter of the Realtek drivers (or the Hiface but the clicks caused by the Hiface drivers seems OSX releated)
The default Vista drivers simply leave the DAC on all of the time.
What I did on my system
•System: Make a restore point (this allows you to roll back)
•Device manager: deinstall the driver (note type etc just in case you need to download them from the Realtek website again)
•Programs - remove the driver (if you don’t it will be reinstalled in the next step)
•Reboot and Vista installs the MS High Def Audio Device.
YMMV, at your own risk, etc
A couple of configuration tips:
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/VistaTweak.htm

StanleyB
07-04-2010, 14:12
Any chance of getting a copy of the original 96bit file so I can try to re-create the problem?

MaCs
07-04-2010, 14:15
Ah finally there is someone other than me that hear this as well. Actually your experience is exactly the same the one here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4670

Yes, I have exactly the same problem. I found that an easy way to test it is to go to on the audio device properties dialog. There you have the "advanced statistics" tab where you can choose the default sampling and resolution. You can choose a setting and click on the test button to hear what it sounds like. 16 bit works well but as soon as I select 24 bit (at any sampling rate), It does not work right. The first test sound (corresponding to the right channel) is often wrong (but not always).

I tested with another computer that uses a different Realtek chip and it behaves the same. So I really suspect this is a problem with the Caiman.

MaCs
07-04-2010, 14:16
Any chance of getting a copy of the original 96bit file so I can try to re-create the problem?
Could you try the simple test that I just described in my previous post?

StanleyB
07-04-2010, 18:15
Could you try the simple test that I just described in my previous post?
Try what :scratch:? I haven't got a clue what you are describing in your experiment, or the set up that you are using.

MaCs
07-04-2010, 18:51
Try what :scratch:? I haven't got a clue what you are describing in your experiment, or the set up that you are using.
Sorry if was not clear enough.

What I describe works with Vista and Windows 7.

Go Control Panel and choose Sound. There, your devices are listed. Mine is Realtek Digital Output.

Double-clicking it brings you to its properties. Choose the Advanced Statistics tab (my OS is in french; it may be a bit different in english).

There you have Default Format settings that you can test. You have 16 bit 44100 Hz, 16 bit 48000 Hz, etc.

When you click Test, it plays a sound in that format. That's it.

Vincent Kars
07-04-2010, 19:00
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Pictures/Software/Tweak/USBAdvanced.jpg

StanleyB
07-04-2010, 19:27
Forgive me for asking in case the answer is obvious, but why are you adjusting the speaker settings for your PC? Is your PC operating system unable to automatically detect the bit and frequency format of an audio file when it is played back? Or are you selecting say a 16bit/44.1KHz file, and then trying to play it back at 24bit/96KHz?

MaCs
07-04-2010, 19:38
Forgive me for asking in case the answer is obvious, but why are you adjusting the speaker settings for your PC? Is your PC operating system unable to automatically detect the bit and frequency format of an audio file when it is played back? Or are you selecting say a 16bit/44.1KHz file, and then trying to play it back at 24bit/96KHz?
It's only a default format (one has to be set anyway). The WASAPI mode in Windows overrides this setting and sends 24bit/96kHz in 24bit/96kHz to the soundcard, regardless of the default format selected.

StanleyB
07-04-2010, 19:40
It's only a default format (one has to be set anyway). The WASAPI mode in Windows overrides this setting and sends 24bit/96kHz in 24bit/96kHz to the soundcard, regardless of the default format selected.
And how is your sound card connected to the Caiman. Has it got an optical or coax output?

dave2010
07-04-2010, 20:25
Not sure if running this would help for diagnostics - http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml - dpclat - DPC Latency Checker. Might be completely irrelevant of course, but on my system it does show up some pinch points.

MaCs
07-04-2010, 20:25
And how is your sound card connected to the Caiman. Has it got an optical or coax output?
Coax.

MaCs
07-04-2010, 20:26
Not sure if running this would help for diagnostics - http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml - dpclat - DPC Latency Checker. Might be completely irrelevant of course, but on my system it does show up some pinch points.
I did the check and everything is ok. My computer is pretty powerful (Intel i7).

StanleyB
07-04-2010, 21:47
I am still unclear why you need to change the sound card settings to 24bit/96KHz when playing back an audio file. Is your PC otherwise unable to detect the correct bit rate and sampling frequency of the audio file? I can't find any information anywhere that recommends that the sound card settings should be changed to match the file bit and frequency format.

MaCs
07-04-2010, 23:53
I don't have to change it. This setting is used for the Windows kernel mixer. If your application uses the Windows kernel mixer, the stream is resampled to this this value. But if you use a WASAPI plugin (direct streaming), the audio stream is sent directly to the sound card and no resampling occurs. So 16/44.1 files are sent as 16/44.1 and 24/96 files are sent as 24/96.

Martin.

sum1
08-04-2010, 04:33
Stan,

I believe his problem and mine is that playing back 24/96 file such as the one you can get here http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html. Bear in mind you need something else such as 24 bit computer soundcard with spdif out to properly get 24/96 signal out to the caiman from a computer.

My problem affects normal CD Redbook files as well. Although the volume and frequency of the clicking varies with different computer and player output configuration. Currently it is very hard and frustrating to get a perfect nonclick sound out of a computer with the caiman.

Thanks for joining the discussion by the way and i hope you can help us out.

MaCs
08-04-2010, 14:27
My problem affects normal CD Redbook files as well. Although the volume and frequency of the clicking varies with different computer and player output configuration.
Regarding redbook cd files, what program and configuration do you use? I have found that in some programs, you can either set the output resolution or leave it as it is.

In JRivers Media Center, for instance, you can either set "source bit depth" or set it to 16 or 24 bit. In my case, if I set "source bit depth", 16 bit files will play well and 24 bit files will have the "clicks". If I set 16 bit depth, there will be no click at all but of course 24 bit files are downsampled to 16 bit.

Martin.

sum1
09-04-2010, 05:34
Regarding redbook cd files, what program and configuration do you use? I have found that in some programs, you can either set the output resolution or leave it as it is.

In JRivers Media Center, for instance, you can either set "source bit depth" or set it to 16 or 24 bit. In my case, if I set "source bit depth", 16 bit files will play well and 24 bit files will have the "clicks". If I set 16 bit depth, there will be no click at all but of course 24 bit files are downsampled to 16 bit.

Martin.

I mainly use Foobar. Output settings is mainly set at 24 bit if i use my realtek toslink out(since i have quite a few 24/96 file and prefer not to constantly switch between 16/24bit) but i did try changing it to 16 bit to see for differences. in 16 bit mode playing 44khz file i can still hear the clicks although the click does get reduced when compared to 24 bit output.

If i switch to a desktop pc which got much lower DPC latency than my laptop, using usb connection in 16 bit foobar output i still get clicks if i use Directsound output but i think it disappeared if i use ASIO4all output (although i still have to confirm this by spending more time with it).

Its very easy to blame that the realtek is the problem since afterall its is a free onboard solution but i also got a m2tech hiface and i also cant get the m2tech hiface to work with the caiman withough clicks on 3 pcs using KS/WASAPI/ASIO in 16/24 bit output mode.

MaCs
09-04-2010, 13:31
So it seems that your Caiman is even buggier than mine.

sum1
12-04-2010, 04:57
Martin,

Did you say that you also have problem playing redbook file in 24 bit output mode e.g 24/44.1khz? If so can you try to use a resampler and set it to 48khz. I dont know why but currently resampling to 48khz fixes my clicking problem.

Oh and i tried my desktop computer ancient ac97 based coax spdif out to the caiman and this works fine as well. Cant try 24 bit file though on ac97 due to incompatibility.

dave2010
12-04-2010, 06:59
Martin

I did manage to get some clicky sounds, but it wasn't slightly bad - just terrible.

I tried using a MP3+ Soundblaster external card to output an optical signal to the Caiman. This works fine on "normal" music, but if a high res sound file (96 kHz) is played, it either doesn't work at all, or produces a very choppy sound. I tried a 192 kHz file, but that wouldn't work at all. I tried several different players, and some wouldn't do anything, but foobar managed to output something at 96 kHz. However that Soundblaster card is only a 16 bit card, and I'm not sure if it's even supposed to touch 96 kHz sampled files. I'll check this out again - though it's tricky as Creative have effectively withdrawn support for this device and finding documentation seems hard. [I should have some printed version somewhere, but where ...?]

If you're using Windows - looks like you are - then you could get different performance and results depending on the player. It's quite possible that along the chain between the file and the Caiman that something would do additional processing, in which case you can't be sure that the input to the DAC is actually what you think it is. If you're using USB to drive which I note that you were even to generate an SPDIF output form your m2tech hiface device, then apart from the issue of Windows maybe not doing Audio 2 in a consistent way (dependent on OS and other factors), it looks as though the USB Audio spec may on occasion try to be clever which would mean you wouldn't know exactly what it's actually doing. This is slightly speculative on my part, having looked at some of the documentation recently. If the m2tech unit comes with its own drivers, then presumably that will have been sorted.

I should also eventually be able to check using an iMac, which should be up to the latest specs - though that may be a little while.

One possible issue could be the optical cable length, though I doubt it. I'm using a 10 metre cable at present, and it's OK with the 16/48 I'm currently listening to. I've not listened enough to know whether there is any serious degradation, but there's nothing too obvious with what I'm listening to right now.

Sorry if I'm way off here, but I'm just trying to see what happens with different kit.

MaCs
12-04-2010, 14:09
Martin,

Did you say that you also have problem playing redbook file in 24 bit output mode e.g 24/44.1khz? If so can you try to use a resampler and set it to 48khz. I dont know why but currently resampling to 48khz fixes my clicking problem.

Oh and i tried my desktop computer ancient ac97 based coax spdif out to the caiman and this works fine as well. Cant try 24 bit file though on ac97 due to incompatibility.
Ok, I will try that tonight and keep you informed.

MaCs
12-04-2010, 14:12
Martin
One possible issue could be the optical cable length, though I doubt it. I'm using a 10 metre cable at present, and it's OK with the 16/48 I'm currently listening to. I've not listened enough to know whether there is any serious degradation, but there's nothing too obvious with what I'm listening to right now.

Sorry if I'm way off here, but I'm just trying to see what happens with different kit.
No, I tested different cables and it did not change anything. But thanks for your advice.

Martin.

dave2010
12-04-2010, 18:08
If you are interested on hearing what the click is like i've uploaded a recording of my caiman output http://www.mediafire.com/?ynninzwlj3j
You can hear the click at around 0:13, 0:15 and 1:01 mark. That recording was done with USB -> caiman connection.
You're sure it isn't in the (original) recording? With speakers I had to listen close up. The most prominent click seems to be the one about 1 minute in. I decided to go back to headphones to check this. I also reversed the phones as I think my left ear may be more sensitive. I agree that there are clicks, though the piano itself sounds clangy, and there are other noises going on in the recording - maybe pedalling. These are very obvious after the click at about 1 minute. I did wonder if there wasn't a click on the other channel too, and of course there are clicks at the end of the snippet. You seem to find them annoying, and I wouldn't disagree that they are predominantly on the right channel during the music.

Do you only get the clicks during music? I suppose once you know they're there you do listen for them - and, yes, they do start to get annoying.

MaCs
12-04-2010, 21:30
You're sure it isn't in the (original) recording? With speakers I had to listen close up.
It is exactly like what I hear on my system.

MaCs
13-04-2010, 01:22
Martin,

Did you say that you also have problem playing redbook file in 24 bit output mode e.g 24/44.1khz? If so can you try to use a resampler and set it to 48khz. I dont know why but currently resampling to 48khz fixes my clicking problem.

Oh and i tried my desktop computer ancient ac97 based coax spdif out to the caiman and this works fine as well. Cant try 24 bit file though on ac97 due to incompatibility.
You're right, it works! Thanks for the tip. But anyway this is curious, and it still does not work with 96 kHz. I wonder if Mr. Beresford will comment on this.

Martin.

sum1
13-04-2010, 06:06
You're sure it isn't in the (original) recording?

Do you only get the clicks during music? I suppose once you know they're there you do listen for them - and, yes, they do start to get annoying.

Yeah the noise is definitely not in the recording as i can definitely rewind back to that spot and the click noise will come up at a different place.
I dont think the click noise is there when you are not playing a music which i believe the dac will automatically mute itself


You're right, it works! Thanks for the tip. But anyway this is curious, and it still does not work with 96 kHz. I wonder if Mr. Beresford will comment on this.

Martin.

Glad to hear that the workaround works for you as well. It would be interesting to hear as well from Stan what the explanation of it would be.

StanleyB
13-04-2010, 09:08
I am no driver and software expert, so I don't know how the PC processes the data, especially at higher data density as in the case of higher bitrate files. What I can say however is if a 0 or a 1 is incorrectly translated or sent from the PC to a DAC, the D to A converted waveform at that moment in time is going to sound different. It is more likely to sound as a click.

dave2010
13-04-2010, 13:14
I dont think the click noise is there when you are not playing a music which i believe the dac will automatically mute itself
How about playing white or pink noise to stop the muting, then hear what comes above the noise floor?

HighFidelityGuy
13-04-2010, 13:26
How about playing white or pink noise to stop the muting, then hear what comes above the noise floor?

Also try generating a silent .wav files in Audacity or some other audio editing software at various sample rates etc and try playing them. It sounds daft but I think this will cause the DAC to un-mute as it should actually be receiving data, just a very small amount. If you still get clicks over this then at least you know it's not a bandwidth issue.

sum1
14-04-2010, 06:18
I am no driver and software expert, so I don't know how the PC processes the data, especially at higher data density as in the case of higher bitrate files. What I can say however is if a 0 or a 1 is incorrectly translated or sent from the PC to a DAC, the D to A converted waveform at that moment in time is going to sound different. It is more likely to sound as a click.

Does a DAC usually have some error correction or something in it to handle these data anomaly? i'm thinking of maybe the reclocking module inside the caiman doesnt like spdif signal generated from certain devices.


Also try generating a silent .wav files in Audacity or some other audio editing software at various sample rates etc and try playing them. It sounds daft but I think this will cause the DAC to un-mute as it should actually be receiving data, just a very small amount. If you still get clicks over this then at least you know it's not a bandwidth issue.

Thats a good idea. i might try that once i figure out how to create the silent .wav :)

StanleyB
14-04-2010, 19:34
Does a DAC usually have some error correction or something in it to handle these data anomaly?
No. Error correction is done at the CD or PC side. Look up Reed-Solomon error correction.

sum1
17-04-2010, 05:22
Also try generating a silent .wav files in Audacity or some other audio editing software at various sample rates etc and try playing them. It sounds daft but I think this will cause the DAC to un-mute as it should actually be receiving data, just a very small amount. If you still get clicks over this then at least you know it's not a bandwidth issue.

I manage to create a silent.wav file and when i try to play it back i hear no clicks at all. I am not sure if this silent.wav file actually bypasses the dac mute mechanism as i dont seem to hear the small chirping sound that usually comes out when you start/stop/change music tracks.

StanleyB
17-04-2010, 06:46
Is the WAV track 24 bit/96KHz?

sum1
18-04-2010, 03:02
Is the WAV track 24 bit/96KHz?

No. I am having difficulty using Audacity exporting it as a 24/96. So far i only figure out how to export it as 24bit 44khz file and then try playing it back using foobar player and the SoX upsampler to make it 24/96.

24bit
19-04-2010, 19:15
have you tried different source ?
CD for example ?
just to establish what is a source of problem, PC, cables, Caiman.
change the cables as well.
For what I understand so far, it's very random.
Have you got very quiet click when you press play/stop on foobar ?
I've listened to audio file, and it's different click to one I know (mentioned above)
don't give up to your Caiman so soon....
I did very precise and thorough tests recently, maybe I'll leave outcome hre if find some time,
and Caiman outperforms other DACS easily, even those more expensive

good luck with it, 'cause it's truly amazing device

MaCs
19-04-2010, 20:21
No. I am having difficulty using Audacity exporting it as a 24/96. So far i only figure out how to export it as 24bit 44khz file and then try playing it back using foobar player and the SoX upsampler to make it 24/96.
It seems that our Realtek chips only support 48 kHz. So if you signal at any other sampling rate, the chip resamples it (badly, apparently) to 48 kHz. That's why it works when the signal is first resampled to 48 kHz.

You can test your system with this simple program:

http://ac3filter.net/files/download/spdif_test.exe

Simply run it and click Test.

sum1
20-04-2010, 04:10
have you tried different source ?
CD for example ?
just to establish what is a source of problem, PC, cables, Caiman.
change the cables as well.
For what I understand so far, it's very random.
Have you got very quiet click when you press play/stop on foobar ?


Yes i've tried it with my CD player and its fine. Only problem is with the pc and caiman combo. Tried changing most of the stuff like cables, different pc, different methods of connections etc and with a certain combination i can eliminate this issue but it seems to be very picky with what it can work with. The click is not the one that comes with the mute relay when you play/stop a track.


It seems that our Realtek chips only support 48 kHz. So if you signal at any other sampling rate, the chip resamples it (badly, apparently) to 48 kHz. That's why it works when the signal is first resampled to 48 kHz.

You can test your system with this simple program:

http://ac3filter.net/files/download/spdif_test.exe

Simply run it and click Test.

The older AC97 based codec resamples to 48khz all the time but the newer HighDefinitionAudio chips do not necessarily do that. Even if the realtek does resample, i also have m2tech hiface which are known to be bitperfect by its users and it got problems with the clicking as well.

I've also used the realtek optical out briefly with another device such as a chinese NOS dac and apogee mini-dac before and i've never had this issue with it.

24bit
21-04-2010, 10:11
I'd say it's Windows/PC issue, not Beresford
If it works with CD without problem, it's simple that PC generates problem not Beresford...
It could be Windows related problem
Can you borrow from your friend/mate a separate audio interface ?
So you can establish it's problem with PC/WIN then with Realtek ?
I have Realtek (I got 2 PCs, one has old Realtek and one has new - 24/96)
I have a dropouts sometimes (for a sec.) when use internet or use PC for other things. It could be some sort of IRQ issue I don't know.
have you tried with USB ?
Is it exactly same thing ?
I use foobar too, can you try different player (Winamp, VLC, etc) and confirm that issue still exist ?

good luck

Heady
05-05-2010, 20:32
I'd just like to say - "me too".

When I first got the Camian - I was amazed by the results... but the one thing that worried me was the "clicking" that the unit does. My experience with equipment before the Camian was limited to just flatmates gear - but I'd never heard clicking before - definitely not as loud as the Camian. In fact I was so surprised that I wrote an email to Stanley asking if the "clicking" was normal and if any damage would result. Stanley quite wisely ignored me.

But with the current setup I have - I've been on a slow quest to find out what is causing the "clicking" and trying to eradicate it. As I do find it annoying and spoils an otherwise great sound.

I have two Camian's being driven by ACER Revo's used for listening via headphones for music and video.

The "clicking" I have determined occurs under three cases:

When I start or stop playing music. (Annoying - but I can accept).
Between music. (Annoying - tying to identify the reason to reduce impact)
During music. (Very annoying - and trying to spend some time to find out why).


For cases 1 to 3 (especially 1 & 2) the sound of the clicking is audible external to the Camian and also sounds as a pop through the headphones.

The worst case of 3 I've been able to find is a particular version of the MIRAMAX logo soundtrack shown before some DVD movies. The "clicking" sounds like a machine gun.

From what I've learnt from this forum and others is that possible causes for case 1 could be the DAC gating. Some suggest that some DAC designers do this so that measurement results are better during silence. I think I read somewhere on this forum that it might also be a specific command code being sent to the Camian, whereby the Camian happily processes the command code as a valid sample. I've yet to spend time looking into this case.

A possible cause for case 2 is either the same as case 1 or could be a change in sample rate between songs (for example). I've tried spending some time looking at points in the source that cause this - but I have not been able to find anything obvious to the eye as yet. The search continues.

Case 3 is the most annoying for me and I've spent the most time looking (well a few hours at least). What I've been able to identify are two separate scenarios. One scenario where the source is actually at fault and the other is a little like case 2 and I've yet to identify anything out of the ordinary.

One of the cases I've just tracked down is the source of the pops I hear in the high resolution FLAC streamed from Český rozhlas D-Dur. In this specific case it appears to be a data corruption problem in a buffer somewhere in their processing chain. As the click appears in a spectrogram as a solid event from DC to day-light in a fairly constant interval with energy dependent on surrounding energy. In some cases the "click" is masked by the music - other times it is quite audible. I've got some good screen captures showing this issue (I was going to include but I not sure if AOS has a preferred image host).

So one investigation down - score Caiman 1 - Source 0.

As time and interests permit - I'll look into the other cases I've identified.

Just confirms I suppose what Stanley says: the Camian is unforgiving of the source and takes no prisoners.

HighFidelityGuy
06-05-2010, 16:13
Hi Heady, welcome to AoS,

Do the clicks that you hear sound the same in each of your 3 cases or do some cases produces louder more harsh clicks? Also, what type of connection are you using between your PC and Caiman? Coax, Optical or USB? And what brand of this cable are you using?
Also, what software are you using to play your source material and what operating system are you using? Win XP, Vista, Win 7, Linux of some sort etc...

Cheers. :)

P.S. Don't forget to say hi in the welcome area and put your first name in your signature as per the forum rules. :)

sdo_riga
23-08-2010, 00:33
Hi,

I would like to say 'me too' as well.

I had the initial joy of listening to Caiman's output for a couple of hours the evening I got the unit. Then I started trying tracks from different artists and noticed the 'clicks' at start and end. I tried both Coaxil and Optical S/PDIF from my VIA HD Envy on Asus P7P55D Deluxe motherboard without much luck. Next morning I connected Caiman to PS 3 Slim through optical S/PDIF and managed to recreate the same 'clicks' at the start and at the end of each 'track' from the source.

I did not hear the clicks in the middle of a track.

I used both Sony V-600 and AKG K-702 for the tests. As for tracks, I tried from 16-bit 44KHz to 24-bit, 96KHz.

It was mentioned in the thread that if one uses an S/PDIF from a CD Player, the 'clicks' do not pop. What's the difference between S/PDIF streams produced by a PC and a CD player? In the stream turned on and off for each track in case of a PC and constantly on in case of CD player?

/Dmitry

Clive
23-08-2010, 07:11
I rip my CDs to WAVs then convert to FLAC, with both formats I use just a single file per CD, not one file per track. Maybe this is what's needed to prevent the clicking?

Vincent Kars
23-08-2010, 19:59
Hi,
It was mentioned in the thread that if one uses an S/PDIF from a CD Player, the 'clicks' do not pop. What's the difference between S/PDIF streams produced by a PC and a CD player? In the stream turned on and off for each track in case of a PC and constantly on in case of CD player?
/Dmitry

Correct, most drivers mute when the audio stops.
If I use the Realtek drivers, the audio is muted when playback stops.
If I use the Microsoft Hi Def drivers only, a constant stream of zero’s is send.
I can notice the difference because my DAC (Benchmark) mutes after 15 seconds of no signal.
In case of the Realtek, it mutes, in case of the MS drivers it stays on.
Of course like any well designed gear, it won’t cause any audible click when activated or muted.

sdo_riga
29-08-2010, 17:21
Correct, most drivers mute when the audio stops.
If I use the Realtek drivers, the audio is muted when playback stops.
If I use the Microsoft Hi Def drivers only, a constant stream of zero’s is send.
I can notice the difference because my DAC (Benchmark) mutes after 15 seconds of no signal.
In case of the Realtek, it mutes, in case of the MS drivers it stays on.
Of course like any well designed gear, it won’t cause any audible click when activated or muted.

So it appears some sources like Sony PlayStation 3, Realtek audio drivers, VIA Envy HD stop the binary stream through S/PDIF, when the playback stops, instead of sending a stream of zeros. I wonder what specification of S/PDIF lists as proper behaviour.

I would imagine that a bit stream has to be buffered as 16-bit or 24-bit words for actual conversion to analog. If less bits actually arrived, for example only 15 or 14, the conversion would still handle the entire 16-bit or 24-bit word, but create noise, i.e. 'click'.

Is it valid to assume that when the S/PDIF stream starts (or stops), the first N (or last N) bits would be used by the receiver to recognize and 'lock' on (or 'unlock' from) the stream? Does the receiver IC send output before the 'lock' occurs?

Vincent Kars
29-08-2010, 17:32
Part of the SPDIF protocol is a pre-amble taking care of the sync.
More details: http://www.epanorama.net/documents/audio/spdif.html

StanleyB
29-08-2010, 18:25
Might be worth reading about why there is a click at the end or beginning of a track HERE (http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Improving_and_Remastering_Audio)

sdo_riga
29-08-2010, 18:29
Part of the SPDIF protocol is a pre-amble taking care of the sync.
More details: http://www.epanorama.net/documents/audio/spdif.html

The S/PDIF does not seem to be the issue... What else could be the cause?:scratch:

StanleyB
29-08-2010, 19:01
The S/PDIF does not seem to be the issue... Something in the implementation DAC causes the click then.:scratch:
Have you read the article in the link I provided, or is your intention to keep banging on about DAC implementation?

Reid Malenfant
29-08-2010, 19:08
That's an awful lot to read & digest, why don't you suggest to the poor bloke which bit to look at so he can get an idea? ;)

After all there are clicky bits at the top to direct you :)

sdo_riga
30-08-2010, 03:14
Have you read the article in the link I provided, or is your intention to keep banging on about DAC implementation?

Hi Stanley,

If you look at the timestamps of the posts, they are 4 min apart. It seems I was taking time to type my message while you were typing yours. So I did not see your post with the link before submitting my post.:)

I try to narrow down where the issue is. Can 3 different sources by 3 different vendors be faulty with their S/PDIF implementation? It's possible.

I read the link and do not see how it's relevant unless somebody puts the light on it for me. The text seem to make sense for 'clicks' within a track. However, I did not hear any clicks, while playing a material. And in the previous posts both Windows 7 'test' sounds and PlayStation 3 XBR menu sounds were tests besides musical tracks. And those system sounds are free from audible clicks I would say when played through other outputs.

Just to make sure we refer to the same... I heard clicks only at the beginning and end of ANY material. The sequence was:
- hit 'play'
- hear the click
- hear the material
- hit 'stop',
- hear the click.

If the material is free from clicks (i.e. system sounds on Win 7 and PS3) and S/PDIF has build in flow control markers, what causes the clicks at the start and the end of S/PDIF binary stream?:scratch:

Marco
30-08-2010, 08:48
Hi 'sdo_riga',

Welcome to AOS :)

Could you please pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community by supplying your first name, system details and music tastes, as this is a requirement for all new members joining AOS.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

sdo_riga
30-08-2010, 12:26
Done!

mkrzych
26-11-2014, 07:00
Hello,
Is there any solution for this? I've got similar issue here recently with CMII: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?35018-Caiman-MKII-check-if-you-hear-the-noise-please