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View Full Version : Technics SL-1210 mk2 - Setup Advice Pls!



jandl100
03-03-2010, 13:04
My tt arrived this morning, all looks OK and in fine condition - but no user manual!

So, to start with .... is the arm height adjustable, and if so how? :scratch:

Thanks. :)

EDIT: It's OK - I've found the manual online!

jandl100
03-03-2010, 13:35
Hmmm ... there is not quite enough arm height adjustment for my modded Denon 103 - arm is slightly high even at the lowest adjustment.

Anyone got a cartridge spacer or can tell me where I can get one?

Ta. :)

Marco
03-03-2010, 13:42
Hi Jerry,

To adjust the arm height, just turn the black swivel-base clockwise or anti-clockwise to move it up and down - simples :)

Marco.

jandl100
03-03-2010, 13:45
Thanks Marco - see edit to post #1, and post #2 for a little request!

Marco
03-03-2010, 13:55
I've got some spacers you can have and will send them to you :)

Marco.

jandl100
03-03-2010, 13:58
You know - I was hoping you were going to say that! :)

Many thanks, Marco.

jandl100
03-03-2010, 14:03
Well, well - with only the Sumiko headshell and some sorbothane under its RDC support platform as initial mods, with the modded Denon 103 it sounds pretty damn good as is! :eek:

The Vinyl Adventure
03-03-2010, 14:46
i was really shocked at mine wen i first got it Jerry, i think its the standard response :)

*cough*timestep psu*cough* :eek:

jandl100
03-03-2010, 15:09
*cough*timestep psu*cough* :eek:

;)

Well, one ... err ... step at a time! 300 smackers, right? That would more than double the cost of the tt so far. :doh:

Is the time-step psu the next upgrade? ... or fancy footers? ... or a Jelco arm? ... or ... is there no end to this madness? :eyebrows:

The Vinyl Adventure
03-03-2010, 15:12
;)
... is there no end to this madness? :eyebrows:

nope...

timestep seems the logical thing to do to me as i was pretty happy with my standard arm for ages once i had the timestep... its remarkable the difference it makes...


i found putting the deck on a isolation platform with sororthane feet under it quite effective... then ones of daves matts .... i think the general concesus is a 300g wieght tightens the bass without dulling the sound in the way heavyer ones can :)

theres a specific alignment protractor printable from vinyl engine too

you may have noticed, im quite enthusiastic about the 1210 as i found the whole process a lot more hands on than im usually able to do...i even fitted my own timestep psu :) loads of fun to be had for a hifi numpty like me!!

Tarzan
03-03-2010, 15:33
Welcome to the Techie club Jerry- upgrade everything then get a SP10, seriously for not a lot of money it provides world class sounds and user friendly- l love mine, so musical, enjoy it:cool:

MartinT
05-03-2010, 15:21
Jerry - the mat makes quite a significant difference to the sound so I'd go something along the lines of:

Feet > TimeStep > Mat (Dave's modified Herbies) > Bearing > Arm > Weight/Clamp.

You've got plenty of fun ahead of you. The thing about the Technics is that it responds so well to every stage of upgrade and keeps getting better. I don't think any of us have found its limits yet (still waiting for the new platter).

jandl100
09-03-2010, 08:44
Well, it's up and going and tbh it sounds just great straight out of the box with no mods! .... it's OK, I'm not doubting that the mods do work. ;)

The only mod so far is a Sumiko headshell installed - I didn't even try the one that comes with the deck as the Sumiko was here before the tt arrived and the less faffing around that is done the less chance of snafu-ing the cantilever! (Sadly, the suspension on my Ortofon Rondo Bronze collapsed as I was mounting it in the headshell. :doh::().

A nice lossy mat is on order, and also some 2 inch diameter hemispheric sorbothane domes from The Missing Link to bypass the Techie's feet.

You may also notice a slight 'mod' to the counterweight - four 2p pieces blu-tacked together to balance the very high mass of the TAF modded Denon 103 cart! Luckily there is sufficient clearance at the rear so this isn't a problem.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Technics1210TAF103.jpg

Very pleased with this - I certainly don't think I would have bought it without the relentless enthusiasm from the AOS! :eyebrows:

MartinT
09-03-2010, 09:08
Nice one Jerry. Even if you do nothing else, targetting the TimeStep is a good move as the improvement is well worth it. Does the Loricraft phono stage take the Denon directly?

jandl100
09-03-2010, 09:21
Nice one Jerry. Even if you do nothing else, targetting the TimeStep is a good move as the improvement is well worth it.

OK - I'll regard that as my next upgrade when I feel the need for a change. It might be a few months as I am much enjoying the tt as is, and I am waiting for the mat and sorbothane feet to arrive, as I said.


Does the Loricraft phono stage take the Denon directly?

Yes, it can. But at the moment I prefer the extra oomph that seems to be provided by a pair of x6 Partridge transformers. .... as to why they should have that effect, I have no idea! But it doesn't seem to be the same as simply upping the volume control on my Chord amp! :scratch:

MartinT
09-03-2010, 09:39
But at the moment I prefer the extra oomph that seems to be provided by a pair of x6 Partridge transformers. .... as to why they should have that effect, I have no idea!

I'm finding the same thing with my Bob's Devices CineMag transformer, despite my Whest being able to accept low output MC directly. As you are finding, it just has more welly, better dynamics and far better soundstage through the SUT.

chris@panteg
09-03-2010, 10:27
Looking Good Jerry ' its such a joy to use too ' do you find that ! it just works so slickly and changing speeds oh what a joy ' no fiddling with some belt .

jandl100
09-03-2010, 10:44
Looking Good Jerry ' its such a joy to use too ' do you find that ! it just works so slickly and changing speeds oh what a joy ' no fiddling with some belt .

Yup, I do love the feel of the thing, although I'm strictly a 33rpm user at the moment.

I love the near instant startup and stop. And the direct drive and strobe gives that feeling of locked-in speed security that is so important with my classical choons! :)
The only facility I could wish for is auto-armlift at the end of side. That's a really handy feature that I will miss compared to my old Yamaha PF-800.

jandl100
09-03-2010, 11:32
Does anyone use spindle-hugging weights/clamps with these tt's?

chris@panteg
09-03-2010, 11:43
I was thinking of trying one ' i know Marco is none too keen , Martin uses one and likes it , i think its one of those tweeks you have to try for yourself ' and so long as you don't spend too much , it must be worth doing ? .

MartinT
09-03-2010, 11:51
I use a Bruil aluminium weight and like it. Marco was also impressed, may have changed his mind about them.

jandl100
10-03-2010, 12:50
Sorbothane footers arrived today.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260546347511&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Four 50mm diameter hemispheres for £15 delivered.

Unscrew the 1210's feet and these pop perfectly into the circular recess! :eek:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Techie1210sorbothanefooter.jpg

Zounds & Begorrah! - What an improvement in the sonics! :stalks:
Everything is better focussed and defined and the tonality seems even more rich and realistic. :cool:

Just need the mat now .... it's on its way. :)

The Vinyl Adventure
10-03-2010, 13:33
One of these martin?
http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/puck.html

MartinT
10-03-2010, 13:56
One of these martin?

That's the one! I ordered it directly from him.

MartinT
10-03-2010, 13:59
What an improvement in the sonics!

Amazing, isn't it? The mat also makes a quite startling difference!

Marco
10-03-2010, 14:03
Yep, and he's still got that to come - along with all manner of tweakery, should he decide to go there ;)

The good thing though is that it's obvious Jerry enjoys the basic sonic signature of the deck, and so now that's been confirmed, one can confidently recommend upgrades such as the Time Step (or Paul Hynes) PSU, and other major component upgrades which transform the Techy into something very special indeed! :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
10-03-2010, 14:40
That's the one! I ordered it directly from him.

I have seen a few people that use these and report the same as what I found, a tightening of bass without any other dulling of the sound... I did mention this earlier on in this thread, bit no one bloody listens to me ;)

MartinT
10-03-2010, 15:45
Sorry Hamish, missed it! I agree, it just tightens up the bass without any other adverse effect.

The Vinyl Adventure
10-03-2010, 16:00
im only joshin like :)
i have noticed on my forum travels a lot of people refering to 300g weights and the positive effect with the techie... i think i have even seen dave c comment - i might be wrong (sorry dave if i am) but it seems as these things are unbranded as such ... it isnt a specific recomendation.
i got mine from peter stockwell, funnily enough he found that it did sit on the sound but if i remember rightly, he uses a 6.1mm herbies mat as aposed to the 3.7mm that is recomended for the techy.. and i guess that is what made the weight not so effective for him

Tarzan
10-03-2010, 18:51
Good post Jerry, do the feet stay in position should you have to move the deck?

jandl100
10-03-2010, 19:42
Good post Jerry, do the feet stay in position should you have to move the deck?

Hi Andy - well, that is a bit problematic! The sorbothane feet are very tacky/sticky and tend to cling strongly to the surface they are sitting on - glass in my case. So a fair bit of care is needed. But they are easy enough to put back in place.

I recommend them strongly to any Techie tt users - I am sure you can get the same type of thing for £75 a footer if you want - but it seems to me that £15 for the lot does the job quite nicely!

jandl100
12-03-2010, 20:26
Whoops! - the next upgrade for my Techie may well be this ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/BenzMicroGold.jpg

:eek:

Arrived today on dem .... :eyebrows:
Initial impressions compared to my re-bodied Denon 103 are more clarity, added zest in the treble, and even better tracking. Not sure about the bass weight and definition at the moment - I need to listen to some suitable LPs .... it's gonna be a fun weekend! :) .... and I should get my fancy mat on Monday.

DSJR
12-03-2010, 20:38
Change those steel bolts for some stainless steel ones. I'm sure you'll hear an improvement. Oh, the shell needs to be replaced for a cartridge such as this as well, but not doubt Marco will be along shortly to confirm.....

MartinT
12-03-2010, 20:40
The trouble with Benz, Jerry, is that you have to deal with that total w*nker Bozic from Audiofreaks. After the conversation I had with him he will never get my business.

jandl100
12-03-2010, 22:04
Change those steel bolts for some stainless steel ones. I'm sure you'll hear an improvement. Oh, the shell needs to be replaced for a cartridge such as this as well, but not doubt Marco will be along shortly to confirm.....

Meh! ... Change this, change that :scratch: ... I've had it in use about 3 ferkin' hours and I'm enjoying it very much as is, thanks. :ner:

:)

But yes, now I know I like the sound I'll swap the cheapo headshell for my Sumiko which currently holds my Denon cart, and use non-magnetic bolts (if I can find ones long enough).




The trouble with Benz, Jerry, is that you have to deal with that total w*nker Bozic from Audiofreaks. After the conversation I had with him he will never get my business.

Well, no - I have to deal with a really nice guy named Dana Berkmen of the UKD Studio, actually! :) Dealing with the importer is his problem! :eyebrows:

jandl100
13-03-2010, 07:46
I've just queried the afore-mentioned Dana of the UKD Studio (http://www.ukd.co.uk/default.asp?ContentID=71) about the status of Benz Micro in the UK, and got the following reply ....

"Actually the official distributor is Select Audio, Mr Bozic has been delisted (afaik) and he gets his stock from the US (so I'm told).

Cartridges are the one thing that UKD don't import, so I've taken it upon myself to stock the Benz Micro range to compliment the Thorens TT's that we stock."

So, have a go with some Benz carts, it seems that they are now a BFZ (Branko Free Zone :eyebrows:) - from my experience of the Gold, they are well worth looking into. :eek:

Dave Cawley
13-03-2010, 09:04
Actually the official distributor is Select Audio

And they are very nice chaps!

Dave

MartinT
13-03-2010, 09:49
And they are very nice chaps!

Stephen at Select is indeed a gentleman.

jandl100
13-03-2010, 09:54
Change those steel bolts for some stainless steel ones. I'm sure you'll hear an improvement.

Here you go Dave - feel a bit better now? .... ;)

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/BenzMicroGold-Sumiko.jpg

I shan't get to listen until the wife gets up in an hour or so ..... (she needs her beauty sleep, I guess! :eyebrows:)

jandl100
13-03-2010, 14:19
Here you go Dave - feel a bit better now? .... ;)

I shan't get to listen until the wife gets up in an hour or so ..... (she needs her beauty sleep, I guess! :eyebrows:)

Whoa! :scratch:

That Sumiko headshell was Bad News! - blurred, hollow, disjointed - so it's back to the old cheapo no-name headshell, although the non-magnetic bolts are staying as they seem to result in slightly more focussed images.

Marco
13-03-2010, 16:27
Hi Jerry,

Too much mass, mate, that's why... The Sumiko is 12g, and thus best for the 103, but the Benz likes something lighter and more 'lossy' like the stock Techy shell (around 8-9g) - simples :)

Headshell mass has a MASSIVE (no pun intended) effect on the performance of cartridges!

Marco.

DSJR
13-03-2010, 16:38
I was thinking of the stainless steel Allen bolts and nuts (M2.5) that you can get in kits on ebay (I used to have packs from RS but not at home). Those magnetic bolts really seem to screw up MC cartridges for some reason..

I know nothing about Benz cartridges I'm afraid. Glad you like yours.

P.S. Might the Sumiko shell work better with a Sound HiFi mat? The Techie mat has bass issues I believe.....

jandl100
13-03-2010, 18:48
Hi Jerry,

Too much mass, mate, that's why... The Sumiko is 12g, and thus best for the 103, but the Benz likes something lighter and more 'lossy' like the stock Techy shell (around 8-9g) - simples :)

Headshell mass has a MASSIVE (no pun intended) effect on the performance of cartridges!

Marco.

Aha - OK, thanks, Marco.

Still - it does show that my ears can pick up on these things! :)

cuddles
14-03-2010, 11:52
Hi Jerry,

Too much mass, mate, that's why... The Sumiko is 12g, and thus best for the 103, but the Benz likes something lighter and more 'lossy' like the stock Techy shell (around 8-9g) - simples :)

Headshell mass has a MASSIVE (no pun intended) effect on the performance of cartridges!

Marco.

All this info is great to us Techie tweakers. It's instructive to learn that not every 'improvement' will result in a positive outcome. Unfortunately it means that others make the financial outlay first :doh:.
The first thing I did when I got my 1200 was to ditch the headshell for the Sumiko. My Denon DL160 sounded like it was drowned in murky depths on the stock - I couldn't believe the difference the Sumiko made :)
Now I'll have a go at those sorbathane footers - the outlay is painless and the reult could be significant as my TT also sits on a glass shelf.
Cheers :cool:

Marco
14-03-2010, 11:56
Hi Simon,

Don't rule out the Isonoes too, if you can afford them, as in my opinion they're even more effective than the Sorbothane feet :)

Marco.

chris@panteg
14-03-2010, 12:07
I think the DL160 with its plastic body ' needs the damping the high mass sumiko offer's , where as other cart's it may kill stone dead , its a bit of a learning curve for novice like me:)

DSJR
14-03-2010, 13:19
Some MC's don't seem to excite flimsy headshells very much, as I've discovered with the old Stilton OC9 and Ortofon MC30 Super in the Dual. The Supex needed lead ballast in the headshell to sound best and I've got a couple of MM's which are terribly microphonic..

As for Decca's....................... If you're prepared to fart about with them long enough, the joys are considerable IMO, but the gain is after loads of pain to get there..

jandl100
15-03-2010, 10:41
Well, the Benz Micro Gold is going back to Dana at the UKD Studio. Thanks for the dem! :)

Very nice cart, but also a case of swings & roundabouts compared to my re-bodied Denon 103.

The Benz has a brightly lit tonality in my system which tends to accentuate detail compared to the tonally richer Denon 103. Better focus from the Benz, too. But the tonal fullness and, not to put too fine a point on it, grunt of the Denon makes it a better long term listen for me.

Of course, in the nature of these things, I am now lusting a bit for the tonal body of the Denon and the extra detail and focus of the Benz! :rolleyes: :eyebrows:

I think more money will have to be spent to achieve that. :(

Any suggestions, folks? :)

Marco
15-03-2010, 11:49
Hi Jerry,


Of course, in the nature of these things, I am now lusting a bit for the tonal body of the Denon and the extra detail and focus of the Benz!


I think that's the magic ingredient everyone is looking for, mate! :eyebrows:

Personally, I'd stick with your modded 103 for the time being because, trust me, you've not heard anything like its full potential yet, so I'd try to experience that first before buying another cartridge - and the way for that to happen is to get a Jelco SA-750 tonearm and A23 SUT, although the latter alone would get you 80% of the way there.

What I'm really getting at is what you describe above is around 98% achievable with a DL-103SA (which is similar to what you've got) when used on the Jelco, in conjunction with the A23. It's as close to the best of both worlds as you're likely to get without spending thousands, so in my opinion rather than spending your money on another cartridge which likely won't give you what you're looking for, it'd be better to spend it optimising your modded 103, which when done, I'm certain will provide the best option that'll get you closest to what you're looking for.

I hope that plan makes some sense. If it does, then step one is to obtain an A23 from here:

http://www.thesoundpractice.co.uk/new-products.html#D103

Give James a phone and say you're a friend of mine - he may even let you borrow one for a listen first. Honestly, the A23 transforms the 103 into something truly special. I cannot emphasise this enough. Your Loricraft has MM facility, I presume?

Even (in the very unlikely event) that you didn't like the A23 after buying one, you'd have no problem punting it on to someone for pretty much what you paid for it, as I suspect that quite a few 103 lovers here or elsewhere would only too gladly take it off your hands.

Anyway, you've got some food for thought :cool:

Marco.

P.S Those cables and the spacer are being sent to you today - sorry for the delay, but I've just not had time until now to get to the P.O.

jandl100
15-03-2010, 12:04
Anyway, you've got some food for thought :cool:



Yup - thanks for that, Marco, food for thought indeed.

My Loricraft phono stage is only a mc stage (I think it was set up for a 0.5mV cart), but I do use it with x6 Partridge transformers as it sounds best that way, so it seems to have loads of headroom. What's the stepup ratio with the A23? I also note that the price is TBA :scratch: ..... can you give me a clue?!

EDIT: Just spoke to James - he says circa £450 ... and I would need a mm stage .... hmmmm.

MartinT
15-03-2010, 12:17
Marco is right and I am a SUT convert too. The A23 will enhance your playback immensely even if, as I do, you have a direct MC input phono stage.

jandl100
15-03-2010, 12:23
Marco is right and I am a SUT convert too. The A23 will enhance your playback immensely even if, as I do, you have a direct MC input phono stage.

Well, as we've previously posted, I do use Partridge x6 SUTs at the moment as they sound good even with my mc stage. So .... is the A23 that big a leap up? (Of course it is, says Marco! :lol:)

Marco
15-03-2010, 13:18
Hi Jerry,

I've not heard the Partridge trannies, or your Loricraft, so can't comment. What I can say is that out of all the many different SUTs I've tried the 103 with over the last 20-odd years, the A23 is head and shoulders the best I've heard and really does make for a magical combo with the 103.

It's the sort of sound that has you absolutely transfixed when listening to music and makes you want to listen to 'just one more album' before bed - and before you know it there are album covers strewn all across the floor and it's 2am.... Know what I mean? :)

Basically what I'm saying is this: spend £450 on an A23 (could you have your Loricraft modified for MM?) and end up with a combination that would take an MC cartridge costing around £3k to compete with (or better) - I kid you not.

Quite simply, though, the only way of hearing the 103's full potential, is to use it with an A23 (or another SUT using the same transformers - if you can find out what they are), through an MM phono stage. You will never hear what it can really do directly into an MC stage. I'm afraid that's how it is, matey - certainly in my experience so far, anyway.

Then after that, slip a Jelco 750 in there, and your knickers will go from merely lightly pee-stained with excitement, to fully soaked!! :eyebrows:

I'll be very interested to see how you proceed.

Marco.

jandl100
16-03-2010, 08:04
My Herbie mat has finally rolled in from the USofA - after a journey interrupted by HM Customs & Excise who charged me £11 VAT and Parcel Force who then added an £8 'hassle charge' .... :doh: Sigh. :(

Still, it certainly is a major upgrade for the Techie from the standard rubber mat. :eek: Well worth the dosh.

Substantial increase in focus and soundstage depth. One of those 'wow' moments. It brings my modded Denon 103 up to the focus and detail of the Benz Gold, and then some because of the improved depth of field, while retaining all of the 103's impressive virtues. It adds a bit to bass definition, too.

Pah! - Who needs an A23 SUT? :scratch: ..... well, maybe I do for my next upgrade. :eyebrows: But the sound is so good with the Techie now that that may be a while.

jandl100
16-03-2010, 08:14
Is there a heavy counterweight available for the standard Techie arm for use with very heavy carts like my re-bodied 103?

Dave Cawley
16-03-2010, 08:14
If you took my 10% AOS discount, would it still have been be much cheaper? If so I need to think about it!

Thanks

Dave

jandl100
16-03-2010, 08:17
If you took my 10% AOS discount, would it still have been be much cheaper? If so I need to think about it!

Thanks

Dave

10% Discount? What? Bugger.

Mine cost me £85 delivered from the States after Her Majesty and Parcel Force had taken their pieces of the action. And it took about 2 weeks to get to me.

Dave Cawley
16-03-2010, 08:20
You could have had it the next day for about 30p more!

Dave

jandl100
16-03-2010, 08:31
You could have had it the next day for about 30p more!

Dave

Ah well, 30p is 30p. :mental: :lol:

... mind you that was probably the cost of the phone call to Parcel Force to sort out paying the fees as their ferkin' website wasn't working properly! :doh:

Everyone - buy the Herbie mat from Dave!! :)

MartinT
16-03-2010, 08:37
Everyone - buy the Herbie mat from Dave!! :)

I did! It really makes a substantial and surprising difference.

Marco
16-03-2010, 09:17
Hi Jerry,


My Herbie mat has finally rolled in from the USofA - after a journey interrupted by HM Customs & Excise who charged me £11 VAT and Parcel Force who then added an £8 'hassle charge' ....


Nightmare... When I got my first Herbie's mat from the US (the one that doesn't quite fit the Techy platter) it slipped through Customs without incurring any charges - it's just the luck of the draw, I'm afraid. I then bought one that fitted the platter properly from Dave.

What's a Parcelforce "hassle charge" all about then? I've never heard of that before :scratch:


Still, it certainly is a major upgrade for the Techie from the standard rubber mat. :eek: Well worth the dosh.


Nice one! We did tell ya... You see, this is the advantage of following 'a well trodden path', as it were.

Sometimes people (I'm not referring to you here) like to be too clever and ignore the tried and tested formulas just to go their own way, and then end up dissatisfied and disillusioned when it doesn't work out as planned... :rolleyes:

It's far better in my view to take advantage of other people's experience and end up with a fantastic result without the 'pain' others had to go through to get there!


Substantial increase in focus and soundstage depth. One of those 'wow' moments. It brings my modded Denon 103 up to the focus and detail of the Benz Gold, and then some because of the improved depth of field, while retaining all of the 103's impressive virtues. It adds a bit to bass definition, too.


Now that is an impressive difference! I do agree with the improvements in focus and soundstage depth though - basically, things just sound 'right' with Dave's/Herbie's mat. *But* results depend on the arm and cartridge combo used, so the all important synergy factor is highly significant in order for the mat to produce the effect you're hearing.


Pah! - Who needs an A23 SUT? :scratch: ..... well, maybe I do for my next upgrade. :eyebrows: But the sound is so good with the Techie now that that may be a while.

That's good news, although the A23 will give you another (very significant) type of sonic and musical upgrade entirely. You're getting there with your Techy, slowly but surely, and going about things in the right way.

Just enjoy it as it is for a while, and then decide if you really want to get serious by upgrading the arm and PSU - that's when the real fun starts and performance is taken to a whole new level ;)


Is there a heavy counterweight available for the standard Techie arm for use with very heavy carts like my re-bodied 103?


I did have one kicking around, but I might have sold it. I'll have a look and if it's there I'll send it to you. If not, Johnnie from Audio Origami does them :cool:

Marco.

jandl100
16-03-2010, 09:31
What's a Parcelforce "hassle charge" all about then? I've never heard of that before :scratch:

That's a fee for the extra work entailed in dealing with customs. No pay fee - no get mat. :(

Re: heavy counterweight


I did have one kicking around, but I might have sold it. I'll have a look and if it's there I'll send it to you. If not, Johnnie from Audio Origami does them :cool:

Marco.

Thanks Marco :cool: - let me know, otherwise I'll drop J7 a line.

Marco
16-03-2010, 09:48
I've just had a look, Jerry, and it must've got sold along with the Techy arm. J7 will do one for you though, no worries :)

Marco.

REM
16-03-2010, 11:48
Re: heavy counterweight


Thanks Marco :cool: - let me know, otherwise I'll drop J7 a line.

Oi, don't go bothering J7 just now, poor bloke's been laid up with a bad back and once he's cleared his back (sic) log he has an rather important arm cable to make up before there's any messing about with counterwieghts, just sayin' mind;)

jandl100
20-03-2010, 16:29
Whoops! :doh:

Jerry's got distracted from the One True Path of Techie/Denon103 ownership yet again. :mental: :eyebrows:

This little nearly-new baby arrived today - I know these aren't among Marco's list of faves, but I have to say that this is one fabulous cartridge! ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DV17d3.jpg

Open, detailed, wonderfully focussed & controlled, huge soundstage, vibrantly natural tonality and tracks like a dream cum true. .... mmmmm, yummy.

Is it staying? Dunno yet - but initial listening has me waving my chubby little arms around and grinning hugely! :eek:

MartinT
20-03-2010, 19:28
Ooh Jerry, that little baby would go nicely in my Dynavector arm :)

A friend of mine had the Karat Diamond and I agree that it's a mighty fast sounding, if slightly light balanced, sounding cartridge.

DSJR
20-03-2010, 19:38
It's a NEUTRAL balance, like the AT's are (but possibly better)! You guys just like a warm, fruity bass, that's all.

I did read that the 17D3 version was a bit iffy on winter tracking, the cooler air having an effect which I never noticed with the mk2. It may just have been a iffy batch and the main reason for the mk3 model was almost certainly to increase the price a little, as it has been with the versions of the 10X IV and V (the different size of mount plate costs next to nothing to engineer IMO).

Marco
20-03-2010, 20:04
You guys just like a warm, fruity bass, that's all.


Err, no! ;)

I like proper extension in lower frequencies so that music has the correct 'foundation'. My 103SA does precisely that (through the A23 and in the Jelco tonearm). It does not have a "warm, fruity bass".

Marco.

DSJR
20-03-2010, 20:17
Couse it does guv, you just don't know what real bass is - as portrayed on your eighties fave recordings :lolsign:

Like you say, the 103SA isn't quite like the soft standard article..;)

Marco
20-03-2010, 20:38
Hmmm... You've got a *LOT* to learn about 103s (and how they sound when optimised in terms of partnering ancillaries and set-up), Davey boy! We'll leave it at that for now ;)

Marco.

jandl100
20-03-2010, 21:39
Now, now lads. Play nice. No fisticuffs. :fence:




...... Marco can't help it if he's a headbanging bass-head! :whistle:

:lolsign:


.... actually, I can see that the ol' DV17D3 might not be for everyone, and no, it probably doesn't have the bass drive and impact of the 103SA. :rock: But the DV bass is taut, clean and textured and just great for my classical choons, where the tonal foundation of the music generally lies a little higher up the freq range. :violin: ... ackcherly, I've only played classical with it so far. :)

:peace:

MartinT
20-03-2010, 21:52
It's a NEUTRAL balance, like the AT's are (but possibly better)! You guys just like a warm, fruity bass, that's all.

I have an AT and I like tight and deep bass that stops and starts with startling speed. That's what I get :)

Makes a note: I must mount my old Dynavector 20A cartridge in a headshell and have another listen soon.

DSJR
21-03-2010, 10:39
Hmmm... You've got a *LOT* to learn about 103s (and how they sound when optimised in terms of partnering ancillaries and set-up), Davey boy! We'll leave it at that for now ;)

Marco.

Oh no I haven't :lol:

I wish I could have taken you to Linn and Decca Records when they were based in belsize Rd NW6 (or that vicinity). I know what I know - and you guys will catch up one day.. :D

DSJR
21-03-2010, 10:49
I have an AT and I like tight and deep bass that stops and starts with startling speed. That's what I get :)

Makes a note: I must mount my old Dynavector 20A cartridge in a headshell and have another listen soon.

The 20A is a great old classic, but nothing like the 17D series, nor their Ruby and Diamond ancestors.

The current DV20 series have a juicy balance too, quite unlike the 17D.

The problem I have with vinyl "bass" is that it's so easy to get bloat and distortion if it's too powerful. Decca's properly set up (and I don't mean in PL71 tonearms with brass weights plonked on the headshells (:D)) don't do this, but so many cartridges do.

I DO know the lower caste 103 and the main problem with this one is the low resolution top end, rather than bass softness. I'm sure the generator system improves dramatically with a decent body around it (or no body at all) but in some ways, when you get to that level and price, I'd sooner try to hear what a Sumiko Blackbird can do - this latter doesn't even need an expensive SUT either, so another potential source of distortion (the tranny coil windings) could be removed from the equation.. Conical tips are conical tips and have physical limitations no matter how you try to tweak around them.


One CD I can use as a reference is the superbly remastered Thomas Dolby "The Flat earth" (great title and perfect for this). The vinyl's good, but the CD plus extra tracks is amazing, especially without the obvious "de-essing" which the LP has a little of, depending on the playback cartridge..

If I make it to the meet next Saturday, I'll bring my copy..

kcc123
21-03-2010, 11:52
The bass of the 17D3 is indeed tight and fast. Deep, hehe …no way!:lol:

My modified 103R will blow the 17D3 into pieces.:ner:

DSJR
21-03-2010, 15:19
Most "commercial" records have little bass below 60Hz cut on them anyway, unless it's distortion or turntable/speaker boom making it appear that there's bass there when it shouldn't be.

This is a difficult issue to discuss online, unless you are actually there at the cutting session and then compare the master with the eq'd version hitting the cutting lathe and then comparing the cut acetate with the vinyl finished product. Give me neutral, clean, fast tight bass any day to the distorted warm-toned mush that many top enders love and think is correct.........

Anyway, you want more bass from a 17D? Get some bigger speakers and do it properly!!!!!!!

Marco
21-03-2010, 15:22
Give me neutral, clean, fast tight bass any day to the distorted warm-toned mush that many top enders love and think is correct.........


I completely agree - and the former is *precisely* what I get with the 103SA ;)

I'll get to your previous post later :eyebrows:

Marco.

jandl100
22-03-2010, 07:44
The bass of the 17D3 is indeed tight and fast. Deep, hehe …no way!:lol:

My modified 103R will blow the 17D3 into pieces.:ner:

Yep - the 103R mod may well be perfect for you - but I'd bet a fair wedge that the 17D3 suits my music tastes better. :) Music doesn't start with the bass-end for me. The bass is the last thing I would try to get right, tbh. Transparency, imaging, delicacy, mid & treble detail, 3D soundstage, image focus, midrange & treble neutrality .... the 17D3 excels at all of those. Bass? Meh - that's for single-digit IQ headbangers!! :ner:

... and so, having insulted 99%+ of AOS members, I'll scuttle off and hide! :lolsign:

MartinT
22-03-2010, 08:39
It's all important, Jerry. I don't think I'd like to do without any of those performance parameters, including bass extension, texture and tightness.

jandl100
22-03-2010, 09:20
It's all important, Jerry. I don't think I'd like to do without any of those performance parameters, including bass extension, texture and tightness.

Well, yes, OK. Of course it is.

But back in the real world, nothing's perfect and you have to prioritise what things you want for the wonga you are prepared to spend.

If you think your system is perfect, Martin, then I congratulate you on achieving a happy delusional state! :)

Many folks here would, I suspect, put bass performance at or near the top of their list of audio priorities, sacrificing perhaps some tonal neutrality (hi Marco! :wave:) or treble smoothness, maybe, or a more 2D presentation. I differ in that, and so I may well end up with system compromises that others here would not choose for themselves, but they are a good set of compromises for me.

Btw - I'm not saying that the DV17D3 bass is poor - far from it. Very far, in fact. But I'm sure that it doesn't have the deep bass slam and texture that many here would prioritise highly and that is obtainable by a finely fettled Denon of suitable pedigree.

MartinT
22-03-2010, 10:39
If you think your system is perfect, Martin, then I congratulate you on achieving a happy delusional state! :)

Not at all, it's far from perfect! What I'm saying is that I prefer a system that balances its priorities so that transparency, detail, dynamics, bass extension etc. etc. all receive equal attention. Being a classical lover doesn't change those priorities for me, since a big symphony or organ concerto requires all those things in spades. I like to feel it!

The DV17D3 (I remember the earlier version) is probably not far off the balance of AT cartridges. I wouldn't expect it to have the subterranean impact of a 103.

DSJR
22-03-2010, 11:02
Most rock and pop music doesn't have anything below 60Hz anyway, but some decent orchestral recordings do have venue ambience which is important. many mc cartridges (and some Decca's) have a huge rise at the arm-cartridge resonance below 20Hz and as long as the phono stage doesn't filter this out, this may explain the low-bass differences heard between these cartridges..

MartinT
22-03-2010, 11:49
as long as the phono stage doesn't filter this out, this may explain the low-bass differences heard between these cartridges..

There is a difference of opinion among phono stage designers whether to follow the additional RIAA specification to filter bass below 20Hz. Certainly my Whest does not and the hall ambience comes across very well as a feeling of air movement. This comes across in different recordings: the Grieg Piano Concerto with Radu Lupu on Decca (a magnificent performance) features the Kingsway Hall underground trains very audible during the quiet second movement and a vivid feeling of the ambience of this sadly demolished hall; the finale to Mahler's Symphony No. 8 with Solti on Decca has that organ pedal note at the end, room shaking in its intensity.

Marco
22-03-2010, 12:26
Hi Dave,


I wish I could have taken you to Linn and Decca Records when they were based in belsize Rd NW6 (or that vicinity). I know what I know - and you guys will catch up one day..


I'd love to have been there - it must have been very educational. I'm not disputing what you know in that respect; merely pointing out that as far as the DL-103 is concerned, I doubt you've heard one fully optimised, and so are therefore only qualified to comment up to a certain point regarding its sonic performance :)


The problem I have with vinyl "bass" is that it's so easy to get bloat and distortion if it's too powerful. Decca's properly set up (and I don't mean in PL71 tonearms with brass weights plonked on the headshells (:D)) don't do this, but so many cartridges do.


Agreed - I've heard this effect too myself many times. However, much of avoiding this is to do with correct set-up and understanding synergy throughout a system. The trouble too is that with a vinyl-based source, there are so many adjustments and interfaces to get right in order for all components and partnering ancillaries to perform optimally as a whole, that few people in my experience have the knowledge (and/or experience) to get this right, and so thus rarely hear what vinyl is truly capable of.

The existence of this situation is obvious from many of the comments I read on forums.


I DO know the lower caste 103 and the main problem with this one is the low resolution top end, rather than bass softness.


Absolutely spot on! However, much of the "low resolution top end" of the 'cooking' 103 is ameliorated by the use of the correct arm/headshell combo and a high quality, properly matched SUT. That really does make a massive difference. The trouble is, few people go to the bother of doing this, and so never hear what the cartridge is capable of, even before the effects of upgrading internal wiring (with 6N copper, as in the 'R' and 'SA' versions) and body-shell are taken into consideration.


I'm sure the generator system improves dramatically with a decent body around it (or no body at all) but in some ways, when you get to that level and price, I'd sooner try to hear what a Sumiko Blackbird can do - this latter doesn't even need an expensive SUT either, so another potential source of distortion (the tranny coil windings) could be removed from the equation..


Some would prefer the Sumiko regardless of how good any 103 sounds, but as with anything else in audio, that's simply a matter of personal preference. The fact is, ALL audio equipment produces certain levels and types of distortion, Dave - therefore the reality is, as hi-fi and music enthusiasts, all we're doing in this hobby is choosing own own preferred brand of coloration, and what we consider is most faithful to the sound of real music...

Don't be fooled though into thinking that one form of distortion or coloration allows a more 'accurate' rendition of recorded music than the other, as there are simply too many variables to consider! ;)

One can therefore only have an opinion on this matter - nothing can be taken as actual fact.

To my ears so far, SUTs 'do it better', musically, than active MC stages - and I'm not alone in having that view. Martin T is a recent convert to SUTs, and there would be many more too if I were given the opportunity to demonstrate the difference.


Conical tips are conical tips and have physical limitations no matter how you try to tweak around them.


I absolutely agree as, quite simply, one cannot defy the laws of physics. However, all of audio is a compromise, and so just as we have to choose our preferred brand of distortion in other areas (valve or transistor, SUT or active MC stage, passive or active speakers), we must also choose our compromises/brand of distortion or coloration with cartridges.

Conical tips may not have the absolute high-frequency resolution of elliptical or fine-line styli, but neither have the latter in my experience the bass depth, tone and timbre, and midrange communicative qualities of a conical tipped DL-103 (or an EMT TSD/XSD15) when set-up and partnered properly.

Therefore, as they say: 'you pays yer money and takes yer choice' - and of course much will depend on the type of music listened to, and how the sonic signature of a particular cartridge optimises the relevant demands of specific styles of music. This is why, for example, a mainly classical music lover like Jerry will likely have different priorities from me in that respect.


One CD I can use as a reference is the superbly remastered Thomas Dolby "The Flat earth" (great title and perfect for this). The vinyl's good, but the CD plus extra tracks is amazing, especially without the obvious "de-essing" which the LP has a little of, depending on the playback cartridge..


It's interesting you should mention that album because it's one of the most impressively recorded examples I have of '80s electro-pop' on vinyl. Unfortunately I don't have it on CD, but my original copy on vinyl sounds absolutely stunning, with the opening bass-line on 'Dissidents' pinning you to wall and rattling your ribcage with its sheer impact and intensity, when played through the 1210 and Lockwoods.

I seriously doubt if the CD version is better in terms of overall recording quality. However, why not make a copy and send it to me and I'll report back with my findings? I have a rather good CDP and DAC too, so if the CD version is as good as you say it is, then I should hear that when comparing it to the vinyl version :cool:

Marco.

Marco
22-03-2010, 13:59
Hi Martin,


The DV17D3 (I remember the earlier version) is probably not far off the balance of AT cartridges. I wouldn't expect it to have the subterranean impact of a 103.

Indeed - from experience I concur with your observations.


What I'm saying is that I prefer a system that balances its priorities so that transparency, detail, dynamics, bass extension etc. etc. all receive equal attention. Being a classical lover doesn't change those priorities for me, since a big symphony or organ concerto requires all those things in spades. I like to feel it!


Absolutely, and so do I! So, Jerry, please pay attention ;):

There's a big difference between achieving genuine scale (and authority) and just simply lots of deep bass; it's the former I'm far more interested in than the latter, and indeed get this in spades from my system.

It's all about shifting large amounts of air *properly* in huge, well-braced and inert cabinets, and in that respect, Martin's Ushers (with twin 11" bass drivers per side) and my Lockwoods (with single 15" drivers per side) do this much better, in terms of creating genuine scale, than most loudspeakers achieve - especially those with multiple arrays of 'diddy-sized' drivers (read as anything below 10") with a very narrow front baffle area, born from manufacturers today pandering to the largely nonsensical sensibilities of WAF.

Thus manufacturers are now obsessed with designing tall, slim, floor-standers and the like, which fit with modern décor, but fail to reproduce music with the SCALE (and authority) it needs to sound real. The best large-coned loudspeakers in suitably sized cabinets also in my experience do the 'small speaker thing' (intimacy, subtlety, pin-point imaging, low coloration, etc) with aplomb, especially when combined with the transparency and 'musical ease' of a high quality valve amp.

The effect of creating genuine scale manifests itself too in classical (not just in rock music), as Martin decribes, and which was heard in all its glory ('screechy' strings aside, or whatever else it was Jerry didn't like about the Lockwoods), when I played the Giselle piece belonging to Shuggie at Scalford Hall. The crescendos the orchestra achieved in parts on this recording were felt in a rather viscerally dramatic way, just as much as indeed they were heard. This is exactly as it is in real life, as I've been to enough classical concerts throughout the years (mainly those of the BBC National Orchestra of Wales) to be able to judge.

What Martin says too about preferring "a system that balances its priorities so that transparency, detail, dynamics, bass extension etc. etc. all receive equal attention" is also the same with me, which is why I use cartridges that to my ears get this right and don't put most (or all) of their eggs into the one basket, as it were, and thus simply excel in one specific area of the frequency range. The low frequencies (since those were mentioned earlier in the discussion and referred to wrongly) produced by a set-up optimised 103SA are deep, tight, visceral, but also very rhythmic and tuneful - and there is no boomy excess or overhang whatsoever.

I'm confident that anyone (such as Martin) who's heard a DL-103SA in their own system, set-up and partnered properly, would agree that it provides a very good balance of virtues, excelling in all areas, although missing out on that last few percent of absolute high-frequency detail retrieval, extracted from music by the best fine-line or elliptical stylus-equipped cartridges on the market, which as Dave (DSJR) correctly says, is an inherent physical limitation of the 103's spherical tip.

In the final analysis, that's a compromise I can easily live with! Other people's mileage, of course, may vary :cool:

Marco.

kcc123
22-03-2010, 21:06
Well said, Marco.
I have been using various Denon models (including 103, 103R, 103D, 301, 303, 304 and 110) since the seventies and am very aware of what the limitations are for the 103s. Among all the cartridges I have encountered or used, the 103R, with its musical , communicative and beguiling respects, still remains one of my favourite if not the most expensive cartridges of all time. Of course, many do not agree.

jandl100
23-03-2010, 08:03
.... In the final analysis, that's a compromise I can easily live with! Other people's mileage, of course, may vary

Marco.

Well, that was exactly my point.

The art of 'winning' in this hobby is to make, as you say Marco, "a compromise I can easily live with!".

A well balanced system for Martin, whilst sounding excellent, may not be the compromise settled on by Marco or Jerry or Dave or Steve or Hamish or .... well, you get my drift .... because they have a different set of musical priorities and sonic preferences.

Just to make the point in specifics, the soft grainy colourations that are so obvious to me in Marco's Tannoys would absolutely rule them out from consideration by me, despite the speakers' awesome performance in other respects. Marco (and, I know, many others) have a different set of perceptions and priorities.

YMMV has never been so true as in this hobby.

I do detect a few too many absolutes being propounded here. :) There isn't a One True Path - there are so many fine components and equipment synergies out there.




Quote:
What I'm saying is that I prefer a system that balances its priorities so that transparency, detail, dynamics, bass extension etc. etc. all receive equal attention. Being a classical lover doesn't change those priorities for me, since a big symphony or organ concerto requires all those things in spades. I like to feel it!

Absolutely, and so do I! So, Jerry, please pay attention ;):





In truth, and if I am honest with myself and with you, I deliberately avoid speakers/systems that shift too much air to create that realistic shudder that replicates an orchestra at full tilt or an organ will all pipes blazing. My wife - despite her other sterling qualities! - does not, for the most part, share my love of fine music reproduced well. As such, I feel that I need to moderate the level of interference that I cause her, and deep shuddering bass is a step too far! It's personal and it's important, and it's a compromise I am happy to make, and it interferes very little with the music I like to listen to.

Marco
23-03-2010, 08:21
Hi Jerry,


Well, that was exactly my point. Although you say you disagree with the point I made you nonetheless agree with it!


I wasn't really disagreeing with anything you'd written, per se; merely expounding on the fact that I'm not some uncouth obsessed bass-head, as you seemingly had pegged me as! :eyebrows: ;)

Scale (and authority) is much more important to me for realism than out-and-out deep bass, which was the point I was making, otherwise I had no problem with what you had written.


In truth, and if I am honest with myself and with you, I deliberately avoid speakers/systems that shift too much air to create that realistic shudder that replicates an orchestra at full tilt or an organ will all pipes blazing. My wife - despite her other sterling qualities! - does not, for the most part, share my love of fine music reproduced well. As such, I feel that I need to moderate the level of interference that I cause her, and deep shuddering bass is a step too far! It's personal and it's important, and it's a compromise I am happy to make, and it interferes very little with the music I like to listen to.

That's an interesting insight into your listening habits which I wasn't aware of, so thanks for sharing - I totally respect that :cool:

How are things going with your modded 103, btw, or have you abandoned that now for the Dynavector (which incidentally I do rate!)?

Marco.

jandl100
23-03-2010, 09:57
Hi Jerry,
How are things going with your modded 103, btw, or have you abandoned that now for the Dynavector (which incidentally I do rate!)?

Marco.

Let's just say that the Denon is 'resting'! :eyebrows:

... tbh, in my Techie deck at the level it is at (sorbothane footers and Herbie mat), the DV is leagues ahead of the Denon in every way that I consider important. Just no contest. Not that the Denon is at all bad, these things are relative, but it is unambiguous that the Denon is an "uplifted" £100 cart and the DV is £750 at rrp.

Marco
23-03-2010, 11:01
Hi Jerry,

To be honest I'm not surprised. What you're hearing is the advantages of the DV's 'superior' tip, which suit your musical proclivities, and like you say, the greater overall presentational finesse of a much more expensive cartridge.

I'm afraid it'll only be when (or if) you fit the Denon to something like a Jelco SA-750 (with a heavy headshell, more so than the Sumiko) and use an A23 SUT through a high-quality MM phono stage, that you'll hear the Denon rival the DV in the areas important to you (and trounce it in others), although even then it won't do what the DV does in terms of its sheer speed and lack of time smear through the midrange and top-end (all traits of its extremely short cantilever), and the absolute resolution of filigree detail at high frequencies extracted from the grooves by its more modern, and in some ways more accurate, stylus profile.

Therefore, you're at a bit of a crossroads cartridge-wise. Personally, if you really like what cartridges like the DV do, I'd settle for that type of presentation and abandon your 103 project, as it will save you a lot of money in the long run (getting to where I've outlined above) chasing a sound that's not guaranteed you'll prefer compared to what you've got now.

That's my opinion, matey :)

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Marco.

jandl100
23-03-2010, 11:15
..... That's my opinion, matey :)

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Marco.

Thanks Marco.

Well, it's still very early days with the DV and I am still in the Honeymoon Period I am sure. :stalks::eek::)

Nonetheless, I reckon you have hit the nail on the proverbials. I get so much more of what I want with the DV sitting in my near standard Techie. It cost me not much over £200 for a near-new 17D3 (yup, an astonishing bargain) and to get the Denon Jelco-ed and SUTed up would be, errr, quite a lot more! Oh, and then there's a suitable mm phonostage. And even then I'd be limited by the conical stylus on the 103, so that moves me into 103R territory which is another £200++, probably, and even then as you say, it may not match the best of the DV, even if it provides more of stuff I may not really want for my music anyway.
No, it doesn't make sense, does it?! :scratch: :)

The 103 is spare and probably available for sale, I guess.

Marco
23-03-2010, 11:31
Take your time and think about it, Jerry.

I know the DV (I used to have one in my days of Linn/Naim, as it worked very well on an LP12/Aro), so I know what both cartridges are capable of, together with your musical proclivities, and so can fairly safely predict the outcome :)

In my view, your money would be far better spent on an off-board PSU (Time Step or Paul Hynes), and later on a better tonearm, which really will make your Techy fly, rather than further optimising the Denon.

Contrary to what some people think, I'm not obsessed with 103s (I really like them, yes) but when giving out advice I'm far more interested in helping people get to the right place (for them) than imposing my choices on others when there isn't a good reason for doing so :cool:

Marco.

jandl100
23-03-2010, 12:21
Take your time and think about it, Jerry.


Who? Me? Take my time? :lol: :mental:

It's the DV for me!

Techie PSU update first, from what folks say.
When's Dave gonna come out with his new one? .... I'll wait for the Paul Hynes / TimeStep2 shootout to see which way I go! ;)

Marco
23-03-2010, 12:37
Lol - smart puppy!

Regarding the PSU shoot-out; trust me the one I end up using in future will definitely be the best one, and I think you know what I mean by that ;)

I supect Dave's new one will be available in around another month or so :)

Marco.

MartinT
23-03-2010, 13:19
I'm aiming to upgrade to the heavy platter too, so it's most likely going to be the super-TimeStep for me.

Dave didn't answer my question as to whether our current TimeStep boxes will be internally upgraded. Anyone know?

Marco
23-03-2010, 21:42
I'm aiming to upgrade to the heavy platter too...

Me too, Martin, but I don't see any reason why the heavy platter can't be used with the Paul Hynes PSU?

Not that I'm saying I'm definitely going to be doing that (no way have I decided yet - I must hear Dave's 'Super Time-step' first), *but* as the Paul Hynes works perfectly well with the Techy as it is now (and I suspect already has enough 'oomph' to drive the new heavy platter), it's just simply a matter of obtaining the heavy platter and plonking it on, with a Paul Hynes PSU in place, no? :)

I do get the feeling though that Dave's new PSU will be rather special and likely be the better option ;)

Marco.

MartinT
23-03-2010, 21:45
We need I N F O R M A T I O N from the man himself!

Dave Cawley
23-03-2010, 21:49
Come and buy me a drink at the Hi Fi Show this weekend, after the show finishes on Saturday evening??

Dave

Marco
23-03-2010, 21:53
Oi - that info needs to be shared in the public domain, matey, for the benefit of everyone, not just during cosy chats with a few people at the bar after the show! :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
23-03-2010, 21:55
http://www.chestergroup.org//components/com_shows/img_original/london-highfidelity-logo3d.png

The "public" bar??

Dave

Marco
23-03-2010, 22:12
Yes, but not everyone's going to the show are they?

We need the relevant info recorded here for everyone's benefit, mate! :)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
23-03-2010, 23:27
Yes, but not everyone's going to the show are they?

Do you know; I think they are!!

Dave

Marco
23-03-2010, 23:37
Lol - don't think so, judging by the threads on the subject. I certainly won't be there!

Anyway, whatever info you have on the new platter/PSU I'd be grateful if you would share here, as well as in the bar at the show this weekend :cool:

Marco.

MartinT
24-03-2010, 07:25
Don't worry Marco, if all it takes is a drink then I'll extract the 'dossier' from Red Fox.

Marco
24-03-2010, 09:23
Cool - I'll hold you to that, Martin!

Anyway, hope you chaps have a good show :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
24-03-2010, 09:29
Lol - don't think so, judging by the threads on the subject. I certainly won't be there!

Anyway, whatever info you have on the new platter/PSU I'd be grateful if you would share here, as well as in the bar at the show this weekend :cool:

Marco.

Nah, he'll want to keep it a secret :eek:

It's really cool if you know something no-one else does and everyone is desperate to know. Makes one feel very superior :lol:

Marco
24-03-2010, 09:38
Lol - it'll come out in the wash, as they say, in due course... ;)

I just want to put the Paul Hynes PSU thing to bed. No disrespect to Paul - I like him and admire his work, but I'd rather give my business to Dave, providing the new Time Step outperforms the PH, simply because it's a loyalty thing, as Dave has been very good to me in a number of our dealings, so I'd like to continue to offer him my support :)

So this is why I'm keen to find out who the winner of the PSU battle will be!

The platter upgrade will then fall into place in its own time.

Marco.

MartinT
24-03-2010, 09:42
I too am interested in the PSU outcome. As a side project, and purely for fun, I'm constructing a 21V PSU with 2.5A capability using the SuperTeddy ultra low noise circuit from Teddy Pardo. I shall compare it with the current TimeStep just to hear whether the Techie is so critical of its PSU feed. I'd like to hear the Paul Hynes and super-TimeStep too so that I can make an informed choice when the time comes.

Marco
24-03-2010, 09:55
That'll be an interesting one, Martin - keep us posted of the outcome :)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
24-03-2010, 12:36
The truth is out there (and has been for over a week!)

Dave

chris@panteg
24-03-2010, 12:41
HE timestep £375 available now then Dave ?

Marco
24-03-2010, 12:42
The truth is out there (and has been for over a week!)


Where? Links? Info? I've checked your website and can't see any updates regarding new PSUs or platters.

Stop being so cryptic and spit it out! ;)

Marco.

chris@panteg
24-03-2010, 12:50
Hi Marco

Its there check again:) Timestep HE £375

I think Dave likes to tease you;)

MartinT
24-03-2010, 13:17
Its there check again:) Timestep HE £375

Yes Chris, but that's a little lacking in the information department. If a new TimeStep HE costs £375 then how much is an upgrade and what does it involve? What about the platter? Availability?

Marco
24-03-2010, 13:44
Indeed, Martin - we need in depth information... Much more than just a bloody price! ;)

Aside from what Martin has outlined, what I particularly want to know is this:

1) What are the differences between the Time Step HE and standard Time Step PSU in terms of components used, and what improvements have been effected overall?

2) Most importantly, how does this impact on the SL-1200's sonic performance?

3) How is the design of the new PSU likely to influence the 'behaviour' of the new heavier platter, and what will the likely sonic benefits of their combined effect be?

4) How much will existing Time Step customers pay to upgrade to the HE and what is the 'trade-in' procedure?

Come on Dave, stop teasing, get yer finger out old chap and supply your loyal customers with the information they need! :)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
24-03-2010, 13:55
All in good time chaps; all in good time............. Rome wasn't burnt in a day~~~~~~~~~

I expect to have production units in stock, in about three weeks time. If anyone wants a part time job here (2-3 days a week), then their first task would be to answer Marcos numbered list, form an orderly queue please!

Right now I'm preparing for the show this weekend.

Dave

Marco
24-03-2010, 14:07
Ok, Dave - in the meantime, could you please at least tackle '4)' then on my list to whet our appetite (or not, as the case may be)? ;)

Cheers :cool:

I'll gladly come down and assess the production units for you and write-up my thoughts for AOS - no problem! I have plenty of time on my hands :)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
24-03-2010, 14:21
OK, just question 4 then! The difference in price is £75.00 The price to change will vary from £100 to swap the innards to about £150.00 for a completely new unit that comes in black as well as silver.

Dave

Marco
24-03-2010, 14:33
Cool, mate - sounds reasonable, so many thanks for that :)

If it beats (or equals) the Paul Hynes, count me in for a new unit in black! ;)

Marco.

MartinT
24-03-2010, 14:41
£100 to swap the innards sounds very fair, I'll be going for that option ta. When do you want an order?

Just had a thought: I won't be able to play records while the PSU is away so do you have an anticipated turn-round time?

Gdg
24-03-2010, 14:49
Dave, guess you didn't ship me yet my PSU. Am I in time to change it to the HP ?

Dave Cawley
24-03-2010, 14:51
Hi Giovanni

Of course, just e-mail me.

Regards

Dave

Dave Cawley
24-03-2010, 14:53
Hi Martin

Turnaround time will be a couple of days. E-mail me to put you at the front of the queue ?

Regards

Dave

Gdg
24-03-2010, 15:21
Hi Giovanni

Of course, just e-mail me.

Regards

Dave

Just sent email... let me know ;)