View Full Version : Valve power - feel the force!
I thought that I'd give my valve amplifier combo a proper work-out for the first time to see if this 'shitty little 60W Yaqin amp' from China (modified by our resident friend and forum moderator Anthony Matthews of Tube Distinctions) could hack it with some hardcore dance music at serious levels :fingers:
Needless to say I shouldn't have worried. I've just emerged from my darkened room in a state of shock, sweating, and shaking my head in disbelief at the sheer scale, physical impact and intensity of the sound :mental:
I had previously slipped 'Elements of Life' from Tiesto into the Sony's slick transport mechanism, turned up the Croft to just over half volume, and pressed play...
Track 6 was chosen and 'Sweet Things' majestically flooded into the room. I was greeted by wall-to-wall synthesised beats which shook the floor and literally pinned me to my seat. I felt a rush of adrenaline as I watched the Spendor’s 12” bass drivers pumping in and out with a piston-like precision, moving serious amounts of air, as they pressurised the room with the pounding bass-line.
The track's low frequencies were delivered with massive visceral impact such that it felt as if Joe Calzaghe had just delivered a fearsome punch to my chest, as the haunting voice of the (unknown) guest female vocalist caressed my ears with an angelic sensuality and combined with the pounding bass-line to surround me in a magical dreamlike and widescreen soundscape. This was truly amazing: I have never heard dance music reproduced before with such intense fun factor from my (excellent as they are) solid-state 200W ECS monoblocks.
I sat transfixed and in awe as I wondered how the sheer scale of the sound which I was experiencing was possible from a mere 60W of push-pull valve power. How can this be right, I thought, aren’t valves supposed to sound soft and ‘mushy’? However I didn’t get much time to dwell on that thought as ‘Sweet Things’ faded out and the gentle trance-like intro to ‘Bright Morningstar’ floated somewhat spookily into the room seemingly contained within its own acoustic space whilst cocooned in a surreal inky blackness. A feeling of relaxed tranquillity pervaded over me but no sooner was I drifting off into a sleepy state of relaxation than I was rudely awakened by a bomb-like explosion of near-nuclear intensity as the bass-line signalling the arrival of the business end of the track shook the room, pummelling my ears.
The scary thing was there was simply no sense of strain whatsoever – in fact there was a sense of almost unlimited headroom, as I cranked up the volume another couple of notches to take the Croft to three-quarter volume, which pressurised the room further creating a sound of such depth and power that it made me feel quite queasy: I simply basked in the atmospheric intensity of the music. It was abundantly clear that my ears would give in long before the Yaqin and Spendors would, so fearful for my hearing I played it safe, turned down the volume, and then proceeded to enjoy the remainder of the album at more normal listening levels. But nothing could remove the grin I was wearing from ear to ear after partaking in such an enlightening musical experience.
So, in terms of bass, what of solid-state's renowned control and extension? Pah! Valve power rules!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Oh no......
I have actually vomited! :doh:
I think you must be looking for a job Marco!!!!!!!
:lol:
Steve Toy
03-05-2008, 01:57
It's all in the timing Marco (and lack of distortion) .. but then I should resist these urges to be so reductionistic. We can leave that to the pseudo-objectivists and their crappy yet 'correct and accurate' "hi-fi."
Steve, I think it's the sheer amount of electrical current that valves have in reserve which maximises transient attack and makes them able to resolve the deepest of bass lines with such lack of strain and effortless finesse :)
Mike, that piece was written 'à la Roy Gregory' with a soupçon of extra flimflam.
Marco.
I sat transfixed and in awe as I wondered how the sheer scale of the sound which I was experiencing was possible from a mere 60W of push-pull valve power.
Valve watts are widely regarded as being subjectively more powerful than the equivalent ss amps. So your "mere 60 watts" is probably at least as capable as a 120 watt solid state version.
60 watts would be regarded as being huge in many tube amp circles. Many of us are used to dealing with 2 - 10 watts.
My first tube amp was an upgraded Leak ST20. It sounded warm and pleasant, but the bass was vague and unimpressive. Because i had nothing to compare it with, i assumed this was a typical valve sound and returned to solid state for years after.
Modern amps can be tons better, but it took me a long time to realise it.
Iain Sinclair
03-05-2008, 09:36
I'm wary of any blanket statements on the lines that 'valves beat solid-state' or 'vinyl beats CD'. There are good and bad examples of valve amps and solid state amps. But as the review was tongue-in-cheek I'll let you off with a caution this time.
Mike, that piece was written 'à la Roy Gregory' with a soupçon of extra flimflam.
Marco.
No sh*t!.... :lolsign:
Iain Sinclair
03-05-2008, 09:41
Steve, I think it's the sheer amount of electrical current that valves have in reserve which maximises transient attack and makes them able to resolve the deepest of bass lines with such lack of strain and effortless finesse :)
Mike, that piece was written 'à la Roy Gregory' with a soupçon of extra flimflam.
Nonsense. There was nothing in the piece along the lines of 'at £25,000, this is something of a bargain'. And no references to mountain bikes either.
I'm wary of any blanket statements on the lines that 'valves beat solid-state' or 'vinyl beats CD'.
There were no blanket statements made, Iain - just a personal account of my experiences with one particular valve amp and a pair of solid-state power amps in my system. You can only tell it as you hear it :)
Marco.
Iain Sinclair
03-05-2008, 09:43
There are no blanket statements here, Iain - just a personal account of my experiences with one particular valve amp and a pair of solid-state power amps in my system. You can only tell it as you hear it! :)
Marco.
'Valve power rules' sounds fairly blanket to me. (I should add that I use a valve power amp myself!)
Nonsense. There was nothing in the piece along the lines of 'at £25,000, this is something of a bargain'. And no references to mountain bikes either.
Haha...nor was there any mention of Nordost ;)
Marco.
Iain Sinclair
03-05-2008, 09:48
Haha...nor was there any mention of Nordost ;)
Marco.
Nordost adverts always strike me as bit weird; a picture of a fat, white middle-aged bloke 'dancing' doesn't really sell the stuff to me (assuming I could afford the stuff in the first place, which I can't, and if I could, I'd rather spend it on wine).
Iain,
Feel free to contribute some recommendations to the wine thread in our off-topic area! :)
I'll be putting some more stuff in there myself later.
Marco.
Iain Sinclair
03-05-2008, 10:04
Iain,
Feel free to contribute some recommendations to the wine thread in our off-topic area! :)
I'll be putting some more stuff in there myself later.
Marco.
I will do. The most recent wine I drank was some Chianti Classico, but I drank it in Tuscany and I can't remember what it was called!
Could it have been Chianti Classico? ;)
No, I know what you mean. It could have been anything - there are 100s of different Chianti!
My favourite Italian red is probably Brunello di Montalcino or Ornellaia. A good Amarone is also eminently palatable, as is Duca Enrico.
Where were you in Tuscany?
Marco.
Iain Sinclair
03-05-2008, 10:13
Could it have been Chianti Classico? ;)
No, I know what you mean. It could have been anything - there are 100s of different Chianti!
My favourite Italian red is probably Brunello di Montalcino or Ornellaia. A good Amarone is also eminently palatable, as is Duca Enrico.
Where were you in Tuscany?
All over the shop, but mostly Florence and Volterra. Not very warm there, unfortunately. In Siena they blamed the bad weather on the Florentines!
Steve, I think it's the sheer amount of electrical current that valves have in reserve which maximises transient attack and makes them able to resolve the deepest of bass lines with such lack of strain and effortless finesse :) Marco.
Er ... valves are high impedance devices, the current is very small, and I assume your 60 watts is actually 30w per channel ? :lol:
Try a decent 500w ab bipolar, then you'll know what current is :lolsign:
Er ... valves are high impedance devices, the current is very small...
You miss my point. Anthony will explain it better when he logs on later :)
You would have soiled your incontinence pants if you'd heard what I heard last night, sweety ;)
Marco.
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
30w valve amps at high volume (spl) don't have any transient attack ! :lol:
They just soft clip and you can hear them gasping for breath on the signal peaks :) some call it "involving" and "musical", oh dear, oh dear, It's so funny I need another pair of pants again :lolsign: Guitarists call it "overdrive" and "fuzz-bass" :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
No, you've simply mistaken the experience to that of when listening to your anaemic sounding little computer speakers :lol:
Marco.
Filterlab
03-05-2008, 11:43
Try a decent 500w ab bipolar, then you'll know what current is
Is that what's tacked inside those laptop speakers?
:lol:
No ! :mental:
...... there's TWO of 'em and if you call a bloody great big metal plate with the amps and transformer BOLTED to it - 'tacked' - then still NO :steam::steam:
Filterlab
03-05-2008, 11:59
Mmmm, 500 watts each are they?
Now are you sure that's not PMPO or some other strange concoction of letters created to make a small amp sound very large? :lol:
they'll do a solid 10 amps at 50v, suck it and see, :upyours: :upyours:
I guess you might get some bass out of his toy speakers when there's an 'F' in the month and if the wind is blowing in the right direction! :eyebrows:
Marco.
I'm going to stop being led into talking about AVI speakers by Marco, in case we have to ban him :p
Filterlab
03-05-2008, 12:06
:lol:
I really like you JC, you take the bait every time! :)
In seriousness I heard a pair of ADM9s by pure coincidence yesterday evening. I won't say anything now as I'm going to borrow the ones I heard, bring them home and set them up as I have set my Revels up and do a proper listening session.
I will write up my findings in due course.
Which sort are they, USB or Opt/toslink ? and if so How old ? (there's four sorts now but no one is supposed to know that ) ;)
Filterlab
03-05-2008, 12:12
They were bought about a month ago, although I didn't ask anything about them, it was only a fleeting listen before heading out to the pub for a small but purposeful session of bloke banter aided by the fuel of stories.
I'll obviously include all the details of them when I write my findings. :)
Steve Toy
03-05-2008, 12:13
Oh dear Marco. Your valve amp thread's been crapped on.
LOL. I'll adjust it later ;)
The thread drift is quite amusing.
Marco.
Never mind Marco, I'll let you listen to mine, and you and Rob can do competitive write-ups. You won't feel disadvantaged then :)
Iain Sinclair
03-05-2008, 12:20
Oh dear Marco. Your valve amp thread's been crapped on.
I thought you were in favour of different opinions being voiced? At what point does expressing a contrary view amount to 'thread crapping'? Discuss.
Steve Toy
03-05-2008, 12:21
Oh dear. Humour is wasted on some folks. ( ;) )
Iain Sinclair
03-05-2008, 12:23
Did someone say something funny?
Filterlab
03-05-2008, 12:24
Thread drift is really just part of open conversation, as in life someone will always alter the subject without intention. One day we'll start a thread on Marmite and end on Norwegian 14th century politics.
:)
Filterlab
03-05-2008, 12:25
Did someone say something funny?
I too am confused, Steve help us out.
Steve Toy
03-05-2008, 12:52
It was funny enough not to necessarily warrant the rather intense response from Mr Sinclair who has only just joined and may or may not have seen the recent domination of threads by the very small and disproportionate number of ADM9 protagonists with their pseudo objectivist and absolutist agendas.
Having said that standalone jcbrum is a lot nicer than the one working in tandem with the AVI propaganda machine.
This is me posting with my admin hat in a drawer somewhere btw. The thread crapping comment on my part was a mere observation and does not (necessarily) herald any form of admin intervention or censorship.
Iain Sinclair
03-05-2008, 12:58
It was funny enough not to necessarily warrant the rather intense response from Mr Sinclair .
Apologies if I was over-intense. It's not something I'm usually accused of being! i think furrowed-brow seriousness is inappropriate for something like hifi chat; it should be reserved for seriously important things like the correct use of the apostrophe.
Filterlab
03-05-2008, 13:00
...things like the correct use of the apostrophe.
Sheesh, don't get me started on that one! I'll never stop typing otherwise.
Steve Toy
03-05-2008, 13:17
it should be reserved for seriously important things like the correct use of the apostrophe.
Agreed.
anthonyTD
03-05-2008, 17:58
right folks,
i am going to stick my neck out here, and try and explain why i think valve amplifiers seem to have much more power and effortless transient response, compared to solid state amplifiers of similar power output.
i think its all to do with the rail voltages, i will explain, transistor/mosfet amps run on relitively low voltage rails compared to valves, around 50v + - where as an average valve amp consisting for eg, lets use KT88's would run on closer to 500v! now the only easy way i can relate why the two diffrent voltage realms could make such a diffrence is this, , imagine you have two cars, both are capable of 60 miles per hour, [we will call the speed the transient response] now, the first car is a nissan micra which although will do a top speed of around 90 miles an hour, its going to take a while to get there. the second car is a 911 porsche which has a top speed of around 170mph. they are both set off on their 60mph target speed, [transient] here is where the comparison should make sense, the nissan micra will take in excess of 12 seconds to reach its 60 mph target:doh: but the porsche will do it in 5 seconds or less, the reason being is because the porsche allready has a much higher top speed capability to start with:eyebrows: so my point is, if you have a device that runs on a lot more voltage to start with, it should be capable of delivering a transient response of a given amplitude much quicker. obviously there is a lot more to it than that, but its a start. gentlemen, its over to you!!!
anthony...;)
But, just to continue the analogy, the porsche is (maybe) 15 times further away from the watcher than the micra, so even though its faster, wtih a faster top speed, it will have to travel much further to appear to cover the same apparent distance.
anthonyTD
03-05-2008, 18:35
But, just to continue the analogy, the porsche is (maybe) 15 times further away from the watcher than the micra, so even though its faster, wtih a faster top speed, it will have to travel much further to appear to cover the same apparent distance.
not sure if thats relivent with the analogy i have used for the comparison, but please, elaborate further if you think it may help....
anthony...:)
Iain Sinclair
03-05-2008, 18:45
But, just to continue the analogy, the porsche is (maybe) 15 times further away from the watcher than the micra, so even though its faster, wtih a faster top speed, it will have to travel much further to appear to cover the same apparent distance.
Plus the insurance on the Porsche will be a shocker compared to the Micra.
so my point is, if you have a device that runs on a lot more voltage to start with, it should be capable of delivering a transient response of a given amplitude much quicker. obviously there is a lot more to it than that, but its a start. gentlemen, its over to you!!!
anthony...;)
It's a crap anology for two reasons.
1. You've got the cars the wrong way round.
2. Transients RESPONSES are current driven, and current is generated by a SUSTAINED potential difference.
What happens in a valve amp is that the output valves saturate and won't put more current into the load, and consequently the voltage droops because of the internal resistance of the valve. This is called "clipping" and because the rise time is slow the harmonics are limited and "musical" (Steve and Marco pay attention at the back.)
In a high power ss bipolar amp the internal resistance is very low indeed and so MASSIVE current can flow, (enough to self destruct sometimes).
This causes very fast rise times and if clipping is allowed to occur it generates an almost perfect square wave with horrible harmonics.
This is why ss amps should not clip and therefore need to be able to generate 300w or more to sound really good. most don't.
As far as the correct use of the apostrophe is concerned, one or two commentators on this thread simply have no understanding whatsoever of these matters, and are actually prone to talking f'ing bollocks. :) not you Anthony :)
This is called "clipping" and because the rise time is slow the harmonics are limited and "musical" (Steve and Marco pay attention at the back.)
I don't hear any "clipping", and so don't need to "pay attention", JC. The bottom line is my valve amps sound simply wonderful - better to my ears than any solid-state designs at any price I've owned or heard, and this is all that matters to me. I really couldn’t give a monkey’s about anything else! :)
Marco.
not sure if thats relivent with the analogy i have used for the comparison, but please, elaborate further if you think it may help....
anthony...
Just pointing out that the presense of the output transformer does slight alter the equivilance your analogy requires.
Though I wonder if the transformer is responsible for valve amps having seemingly effortless dynamics, the transformer itself is a store of energy (in its flux), so its a simpiler process for that to be dumped into the speaker. The output stage of a SS amp contains no sources of stored energy, and merely allow the energy stored in the power supply caps to flow towards the speakers. And then of course the flow of that current is restricted by the ESR and other problems that plague large caps.
And that another difference, to store the same energy the size of a cap in valve amplifier the cap can be smaller, as the stored energy is proportional to the square of the voltage, but directly proportional to the capacitance.
Hmm, maybe that was what you were trying to show with your anaolgy, I will get my coat...
Mike Reed
03-05-2008, 19:29
; it should be reserved for seriously important things like the correct use of the apostrophe.
I cannot believe there is another person out there who cares about the apostrophe sufficiently to mention it in despatches, so to speak.
Of all the grammatical rules in English, ( and some are admittedly arcane ), the rules for the use of the apostrophe are straightforward, simple and easy to understand.
WHY do so many people (it seems) get it wrong?
Damn, wrong forum: back to valve amps and apologies for digressing.
Due acknowledgement to the semantic Scot (????)
Iain Sinclair
03-05-2008, 19:37
Due acknowledgement to the semantic Scot (????)
Thank you. Though of mixed Scottish and Irish descent, I am actually English by birth.
I have to bow out of discussions when valve and ss afficionados start throwing techy terms around. My knowledge of physics is, shall we say, limited.
I don't hear any "clipping", and so don't need to "pay attention", JC. The bottom line is my valve amps sound simply wonderful - better to my ears than any solid-state designs at any price I've owned or heard, and this is all that matters to me. I really couldn’t give a monkey’s about anything else! :)
Marco.
Ahem, the clipping is there, you are in denial. :eyebrows: ;)
You have become accustomed to that particular distortion and to you, it sounds "right" and "musical".
Another listener would be able to identify that phenomenon and in my opinion if the ss amp were sufficiently powerful would correctly identify it as "superior".
This situation is usually glibly resolved by saying, everyones opinion is valid and it simply boils down to personal preference.
Please allow me that preference without telling me only your ears are a criterium. :)
There has been a considerable amount or informed research on this topic, I expect Ashley has reminded you of it.
Iain Sinclair
03-05-2008, 20:14
Please allow me that preference without telling me only your ears are a criterium. :)
Criterion.
Now playing:
'Shit Arm, Bad Tattoo' by Half Man Half Biscuit.
"If you must quote from The Book of Revelation
Don't keep calling it The Book of Revelations
There's no s, it's the Book of Revelation
As revealed to Saint John the Divine
(See also Mary Hopkin, she must despair)"
'Upon Westminster Bridge'
"Oh help me Mrs Medlicott
I don't know what to do
I've only got three bullets
And there's four of Motley Crue"
I don't give a toss about "informed research", JC. Why should I? I'm not a manufacturer. It's my system and I'm delighted with it, so therefore my ears are the most important arbiter, not Ashley's!
My current valve amps sound better than any solid-state amps I've heard or owned - simple.
I see your pal's bottled out of the meeting again, incidentally.
Marco.
P.S Iain - nicely corrected. I was going to point out JC's error myself but felt it somewhat cruel ;)
Filterlab
03-05-2008, 20:20
...you are in denial...
There's only one person in denial here, and it ain't Marco!
Precisely, mate! :eyebrows:
Have you completed your erudite appraisal yet of those ADM9s you had the pleasure of hearing?
Marco.
Mike Reed
03-05-2008, 20:28
A CRITERIUM is a combination of CRITERION and CREMATORIUM
How's that for a red-hot established standard ?
Obviously burnt at the altar of conventional audio by J.C.Brum
Iain Sinclair
03-05-2008, 20:28
P.S Iain - nicely corrected. I was going to point out JC's error myself but felt it somewhat cruel ;)
I agonised for a while before posting; are ears a criterion, or must they, being plural, be criteria? But even my pedantry has its limits!
Ali Tait
03-05-2008, 20:30
J.C.,why all the talk about clipping? 0.5w per channel output power is ample if your speakers are sensitive enough.Witness Steve Sheils open baffle speakers at Owstfest,driven by his amp at around 1.5 watts,effortlessly filling what is a very large room(compared to the average living-room).High-power amps are common because there are so many poorly designed commercial speakers around,with insensitive drivers and complicated crossovers sapping the current available from the amp.If they were designed correctly in the first place,300w or so per channel would never be needed!
A CRITERIUM is a combination of CRITERION and CREMATORIUM
How's that for a red-hot established standard ?
Obviously burnt at the altar of conventional audio by J.C.Brum
Hilarious! :D
:dynamite:
Marco.
Criterion.
Well spotted Iain, I didn't notice my spell checker alter my post.
Bet you don't know what a criterium is without looking it up ? :)
Iain Sinclair
03-05-2008, 20:35
Well spotted Iain, I didn't notice my spell checker alter my post.
Bet you don't know what a criterium is without looking it up ? :)
A place where criters live?
Bet you don't know what a criterium is without looking it up ? :)
Bike race.....
J.C.,why all the talk about clipping?
Well having just heard Marco's bad news, it's perhaps not the best time to elaborate this thread. However Marco described his amp as 60w, whereas I suspect that if fed a continuous duty signal at high level, such as I use to test my amps, then it would struggle to sustain 30w. This is only my estimation based on his description of the components.
Marco said he listened at a very high level on sp100's. A combination of a knowledge of electronic circuit modeling, and experience with that type of amp and those speakers suggest that under those operating conditions, clipping is unavoidable.
This is reinforced by Marco's suggestion that to his ears, his amp sounds better than any other amp he has heard, particularly ss ones, and is exceptionally "musical".
Conclusion: His amp is almost certainly clipping and he likes the effect so much that he thinks its better than anything else he's heard.
For my purposes, therefore his ears are unsatisfactory, although I accept he is very attached to them. :)
Bike race.....
:):):):):):) Well done Mike ! :):):):):):)
(did you look it up ?)
A place where criters live?
vg :lolsign:
Bollocks, JC! I suggest you come and listen before writing such ill-informed nonsense. You haven't heard my system so you don't have a clue what you're talking about, amigo! Stick to your little computer speakers and give me peace :lol:
What "bad news"? Ashley's bottling out of our meeting yet again? It was highly predictable!
Marco.
Ali Tait
03-05-2008, 21:14
Marco,what is the quoted sensitivity of the Spendors?
90db, mate, and an easy 8ohms load. The Yaqin drives them to serious levels, believe me, and there is no (audible) clipping!
Marco.
Ok Marco I'll listen to them, just to please you. :)
I thought you were looking forward to going to AVI ? what happened ? :(
p.s. I have heard lots of valve amps you know as well as owning them myself in the sixties and seventies, and I do know what sp100's sound like, but I'll accept I haven't heard yours. :)
I thought you were looking forward to going to AVI ? what happened ?
I was, but Ashley read my account of listening to my valve amp with dance music at rather naughty levels and has concluded that I'm somewhat too uncouth to appreciate ADM9s! :lol:
I'm glad you're coming to have a listen. Prepare to have your misguided preconceptions rudely readjusted! :eyebrows:
Marco.
anthonyTD
03-05-2008, 21:36
Just pointing out that the presense of the output transformer does slight alter the equivilance your analogy requires.
Though I wonder if the transformer is responsible for valve amps having seemingly effortless dynamics, the transformer itself is a store of energy (in its flux), so its a simpiler process for that to be dumped into the speaker. The output stage of a SS amp contains no sources of stored energy, and merely allow the energy stored in the power supply caps to flow towards the speakers. And then of course the flow of that current is restricted by the ESR and other problems that plague large caps.
And that another difference, to store the same energy the size of a cap in valve amplifier the cap can be smaller, as the stored energy is proportional to the square of the voltage, but directly proportional to the capacitance.
Hmm, maybe that was what you were trying to show with your anaolgy, I will get my coat...
quite right,
and i agree about the output transformer playing a big part in this, after-all, they have to reflect a relitively high impedence/high voltage/low current primary into a low impedence/low voltage[in comparison to the primary] high current capable secondary in order to drive the loudspeaker! as i stated in my original post i tried to simplfy things to get my point across to most of the folk on here, wether they be technicaly minded or not, it would seem i didnt go into things quite enough for some, but thats ok, and i am glad that you expanded the explanation. the point jc is missing with solid state amps is this,the reason they clip so violently and need huge amounts of power to overcome this problem is because of the amount of feedback involved in their circuitry used to linearise the devices used.
anthony...
He's trying to slither his way around that, though, Anthony.
Marco.
My favorite nosh is a small baguette, or two slices of a medium loaf "rustic crusty" variety, with a thin slice of "parma" type ham, any air dried is ok., with black pepper and lemon juice on it., and a large mug of tea, minimum milk, and a tbsp of Irish W.
He's trying to slither his way around that, though, Anthony.
Marco.
wtf are you on about ?
My favorite nosh is a small baguette, or two slices of a medium loaf "rustic crusty" variety, with a thin slice of "parma" type ham, any air dried is ok., with black pepper and lemon juice on it., and a large mug of tea, minimum milk, and a tbsp of Irish W.
I shall mention it to my chef :smoking:
Marco.
wtf are you on about ?
Read Anthony's last post and attempt to discredit it, then, particularly this bit:
the point jc is missing with solid state amps is this,the reason they clip so violently and need huge amounts of power to overcome this problem is because of the amount of feedback involved in their circuitry used to linearise the devices used.
Marco.
Ali Tait
03-05-2008, 21:52
Plenty power for those then Marco.I still have a pair of B&W P5's that I used to use as my main speakers.These are 90dB,and I've driven them with an original wooden-sleeved Sugden A21(7 watts per channel with a tail-wind) to some pretty high SPL's.
quite right,
and i agree about the output transformer playing a big part in this, after-all, they have to reflect a relitively high impedence/high voltage/low current primary into a low impedence/low voltage[in comparison to the primary] high current capable secondary in order to drive the loudspeaker! as i stated in my original post i tried to simplfy things to get my point across to most of the folk on here, wether they be technicaly minded or not, it would seem i didnt go into things quite enough for some, but thats ok, and i am glad that you expanded the explanation. the point jc is missing with solid state amps is this,the reason they clip so violently and need huge amounts of power to overcome this problem is because of the amount of feedback involved in their circuitry used to linearise the devices used.
anthony...
I (respectfully for anthony only, as a fellow engineer) disagree entirely. Feedback has nothing to do with it, that simply sets the gain. The reason is that the rise times are MUCH faster in a ss amp, therfore allowing it to emulate a square wave much more readily. This is what produces the prodigious harmonics.
Because a valve amp has it's output transformer in circuit, that has considerable inductance which modifies the wave form to approximate a sinusoidal one rather than a square wave.
This is the whole problem with output transformer design, to allow a small enough inductive effect to pass the higher frequencies accurately, rather than suffer HF fall-off, which incidentally, since it's on Chinese transformers, Marco's amp probably suffers from as well.
Therefore the output from a transformer coupled valve amp clips in a "sinusoidal" fashion and produces "musical" harmonics.
Whereas the ss amp clips in a much more flat topped fashion, more approximating to a square wave, with horrible sounding harmonics.
BUT, if you make the ss amp very powerful so that it doesn't clip then it sounds the best of all. (providing you haven't got to like the sound of valves clipping and confuse it with "musicality").
p.s. all this is very easy to see on a scope and that is the way you can "educate" your ears ! :)
Ali Tait
03-05-2008, 22:06
Perhaps so,but as I said earlier,if your speakers are sensitive enough,clipping will not occur.
Indeed, Ali. I know all too well what clipping sounds like and there was none at the levels I was listening to Tiesto at last night! The system just rocked in a very brutish and uncouth (but non-distorted) way, which is perfect for dance music, but maybe not so for those with more delicate sensibilities! :lol:
Marco.
anthonyTD
03-05-2008, 22:13
I (respectfully for anthony only, as a fellow engineer) disagree entirely. Feedback has nothing to do with it, that simply sets the gain. The reason is that the rise times are MUCH faster in a ss amp, therfore allowing it to emulate a square wave much more readily. This is what produces the prodigious harmonics.
Because a valve amp has it's output transformer in circuit, that has considerable inductance which modifies the wave form to approximate a sinusoidal one rather than a square wave.
This is the whole problem with output transformer design, to allow a small enough inductive effect to pass the higher frequencies accurately, rather than suffer HF fall-off, which incidentally, since it's on Chinese transformers, Marco's amp probably suffers from as well.
Therefore the output from a transformer coupled valve amp clips in a "sinusoidal" fashion and produces "musical" harmonics.
Whereas the ss amp clips in a much more flat topped fashion, more approximating to a square wave, with horrible sounding harmonics.
BUT, if you make the ss amp very powerful so that it doesn't clip then it sounds the best of all. (providing you haven't got to like the sound of valves clipping and confuse it with "musicality").
p.s. all this is very easy to see on a scope and that is the way you can "educate" your ears ! :)
jc,
i use signal generators and scopes to test all the equipment that comes through my workshops, and i am quite aware of what an amplifier looks like when clipped, i also test them for frequency response at diffrent levels of power output. marco's amp tested well, it gave a true 60 watt RMS output into a constant 6.8 ohm load, at 1khz. its frequency response was flat from 7 hz to 100khz tested at half power!
the best solid state amplifiers i have heard are the simple ones, ie, using the minimum amount of devices, with the least amount of feedback, but sadly only producing around 10 watts. also, the first transistor amplifiers which by the way sounded pretty good when using gemanium [spellin] transistors were transformer coupled, like valves!
you hit the nail on the head when you said about using feedback sets the gain, feedback does various things when used in amplifier designs but the main three things it does are, reduce distortion,[ by linearising] increase damping factor, and de-crease gain!
anthony...
marco's amp tested well, it gave a true 60 watt RMS output into a constant 6.8 ohm load, at 1khz. its frequency response was flat from 7 hz to 100khz tested at half power!
As they say in Scotland, JC, GET IT RIGHT UP YE! :ner:
Read and weep, sweety, and stick yer "30W" bollocks up your ample-sized bottom, haha...
Marco.
Ali, Well ok ish, but it really depends how far you turn up the gain.
For those of a practical nature, it might amuse you to hear that the amps I use have no external gain controls, and are set to full volume without clipping all the time. therefore I know that they cannot clip till the drive voltage exceeds 2v peak.
Once was more than enough! ;)
Marco.
anthonyTD
03-05-2008, 22:24
Well ok ish, but it really depends how far you turn up the gain.
For those of a practical nature, it might amuse you to hear that the amps I use have no external gain controls, and are set to full volume without clipping all the time. therefore I know that they cannot clip till the drive voltage exceeds 2v peak.
most valve amplifiers usually run their driver stages wide open, and are easily capable of receiving a 2v peak to peak signal without a hint of clipping!
some valve grounded grid pre-amplifiers i have made over the years will except many times that without clipping!
anthony...:)
(did you look it up ?)
Erm... Yes. :(
jc,
i use signal generators and scopes to test all the equipment that comes through my workshops, and i am quite aware of what an amplifier looks like when clipped, i also test them for frequency response at diffrent levels of power output. marco's amp tested well, it gave a true 60 watt RMS output into a constant 6.8 ohm load, at 1khz. its frequency response was flat from 7 hz to 100khz tested at half power!
the best solid state amplifiers i have heard are the simple ones, ie, using the minimum amount of devices, with the least amount of feedback, but sadly only producing around 10 watts. also, the first transistor amplifiers which by the way sounded pretty good when using gemanium [spellin] transistors were transformer coupled, like valves!
you hit the nail on the head when you said about using feedback sets the gain, feedback does various things when used in amplifier designs but the main three things it does are, reduce distortion,[ by linearising] increase damping factor, and de-crease gain!
anthony...
I have some early transformer coupled amps in my collection. :) I bought them new in 1967 I think.
So Marco's amp is only flat at 30w, that's what I expected. I wouldn't like to guarantee how long it would deliver 60w on a warm day !
Have I got this wrong or am I right in recalling Marco's amp has 2x KT88 per channel ?
most valve amplifiers usually run their driver stages wide open, and are easily capable of receiving a 2v peak to peak signal without a hint of clipping!
some valve grounded grid pre-amplifiers i have made over the years will except many times that without clipping!
anthony...:)
Yeah sure, but will they deliver 500w at that setting ? :)
anthonyTD
03-05-2008, 22:31
Have I got this wrong or am I right in recalling Marco's amp has 2x KT88 per channel ?[/QUOTE]
yes, two KT88's in push pull run in AB will give 100 watts.
in marcos amp they are run in the warm side of AB1.
anthony...
So Marco's amp is only flat at 30w, that's what I expected. I wouldn't like to guarantee how long it would deliver 60w on a warm day !
More unsubstantiated waffle. Is that like the way you wouldn't guarantee how long the transport mech in my Sony will last? It'll outlast you, that's for sure! ;)
Marco.
Erm... Yes. :(
Well done, ;) so did I :lolsign:
anthonyTD
03-05-2008, 22:42
I have some early transformer coupled amps in my collection. :) I bought them new in 1967 I think.
So Marco's amp is only flat at 30w, that's what I expected. I wouldn't like to guarantee how long it would deliver 60w on a warm day !
Have I got this wrong or am I right in recalling Marco's amp has 2x KT88 per channel ?
example,
kt88's were used in for example, loss testers in the steel industry, they drove huge triode valves flat out for months at a time!:)
Have I got this wrong or am I right in recalling Marco's amp has 2x KT88 per channel ?
, two KT88's in push pull run in AB will give 100 watts.
in marcos amp they are run in the warm side of AB1.
anthony...
100w is a "catalogue" figure, at that level the distortion would be awful and they would go bang v quickly. Don't you agree ? :)
anthonyTD
03-05-2008, 22:49
[/B]
100w is a "catalogue" figure, at that level the distortion would be awful and they would go bang v quickly. Don't you agree ? :)
no,
i dont agree, the distortion figures are relatively high [10%] at that power without feedback, but the 100 watt power output is feasible, and definitely achievable, and with sufficient cooling, sustainable!:)
anthonyTD
03-05-2008, 22:59
off to bed now folks...
anthony...;)
Ok, matey. You've well and truly kicked JC's ass now anyway! Nighty night :smoking:
Marco.
The limiting factor with most valves is the anode dissipation of heat, which is mainly controlled by the bias setting, not the output power.
In class A, KT88's might provide 10w out, in AB 30w, in class C 60w, in class D 100w.
It is therefore misleading to talk in terms of output power and anyway 60w is only 3db louder than 30w (v small difference)
To exceed double the volume (spl) you'd probably need to go from 30w to 300w.
In an attempt to do that in a push pull design the crossover distortion would be enormous >10% and clipping would be absolutely inevitable, but some do regard this as "involving musicality" and even get to like the sound.
Marco has already set fire to his amplifier once :) I rather think this "mythical" 100w from a pair of 88's in ab push pull will provide an even bigger bang eventually. :lol:
To exceed double the volume (spl) you'd probably need to go from 30w to 300w.
More like 900W :eyebrows:
In an attempt to do that in a push pull design the crossover distortion would be enormous >10% and clipping would be absolutely inevitable, but some do regard this as "involving musicality" and even get to like the sound.
Yet more unrepresentative bullshit, JC - certainly in terms of my valve amp in the context of my system.
I think you should refrain from making any more ill-informed comments about components (and a complete system) you haven't heard and know nothing about, and therefore making yourself look even more idiotic until you come and listen, because believe me when you've heard my system all this nonsense is going to come back and haunt you in a major way, and I will not let you live it down. In fact I will take great pleasure in ripping the piss out you here in public in the most cruel and vindictive way possible... You've asked for it with writing all this nonsense, so trust me you will be having a very 'bad day at the office' very soon ;)
Marco has already set fire to his amplifier once
How much longer do you feel it's necessary to mention that? You're being completely pathetic. There was no "fire". A capacitor went pop - that's all, purely because I removed the step-down transformer and connected the amp straight into a 245V mains supply, which is was not designed to work with - my fault, not the amplifier's! It worked faultlessly up until then, as it has done since coming back from repair and modification at Anthony's.
I'm going to make it easy for you, JC. To save you from further future embarrassment, if I see you making any more ill-informed comments regarding my valve amps, or my system, they will be instantly deleted without further notice. Furthermore, I would like to see more from you here other than simply having a pop at 'cable believers' and people who use valve amps because that's all there seems to be so far. Sort it out, and quickly, or your next 'holiday' will be a permanent one.
Marco.
anthonyTD
04-05-2008, 10:27
The limiting factor with most valves is the anode dissipation of heat, which is mainly controlled by the bias setting, not the output power.
In class A, KT88's might provide 10w out, in AB 30w, in class C 60w, in class D 100w.
It is therefore misleading to talk in terms of output power and anyway 60w is only 3db louder than 30w (v small difference)
To exceed double the volume (spl) you'd probably need to go from 30w to 300w.
In an attempt to do that in a push pull design the crossover distortion would be enormous >10% and clipping would be absolutely inevitable, but some do regard this as "involving musicality" and even get to like the sound.
Marco has already set fire to his amplifier once :) I rather think this "mythical" 100w from a pair of 88's in ab push pull will provide an even bigger bang eventually. :lol:
jc,
what is your point, you can go on spitting out quotes and figures, and i can go on answering you with other figures and quotes, but the top and bottom of it is, marco likes his amp, he likes what it does better than anything else he has had before, be solid state or what ever,and he is not alone, there are a huge number of people all over the world that share the same feelings, now what ever you can prove with test equipment its not going to change what they hear and like. i also share their views, i am not a romanticist, i dont use valves because i feel some sort of empathy for them, or their circuitry, i use them because they sound right! believe me, if i could get the same sort of enjoyment i get from my system using anything else, that was cheaper, easier to make and used less power consumption, i would use it without a second of hesitation!;)
anthony...
Ian Walker
04-05-2008, 10:40
Yet more unrepresentative bullshit, JC - certainly in terms of my valve amp in the context of my system.
I think you should refrain from making any more ill-informed comments about components (and a complete system) you haven't heard, and therefore making yourself look even more idiotic until you come and listen, because believe me when you've heard my system all this nonsense is going to come back and haunt you in a major way, and I will not let you live it down. In fact I will take great pleasure in ripping the piss out you here in public in the most cruel and vindictive way possible... You've asked for it with writing all this nonsense, so trust me it will be coming your way big time ;)
How much longer do you feel it's necessary to mention that? You're being completely pathetic. There was no "fire". A capacitor went pop - that's all, purely because I removed the step-down transformer and connected the amp straight into a 245V mains supply, which is was not designed to work with - my fault, not the amplifier's! It worked faultlessly up until then, as it has done since coming back from repair and modification at Anthony's.
I'm going to make it easy for you, JC. To save you from further future embarrassment, if I see you making any more ill-informed comments regarding my valve amps, or my system, they will be instantly deleted without further notice. Furthermore, I would like to see more from you here other than simply having a pop at 'cable believers' and people who use valve amps because that's all there seems to be so far. Sort it out, and quickly, or your next 'holiday' will be a permanent one.
Marco.
Blimey arent you supposed to be in church chillin out on Sundays....
anthonyTD
04-05-2008, 10:42
The limiting factor with most valves is the anode dissipation of heat, which is mainly controlled by the bias setting, not the output power.
In class A, KT88's might provide 10w out, in AB 30w, in class C 60w, in class D 100w.
It is therefore misleading to talk in terms of output power and anyway 60w is only 3db louder than 30w (v small difference)
To exceed double the volume (spl) you'd probably need to go from 30w to 300w.
In an attempt to do that in a push pull design the crossover distortion would be enormous >10% and clipping would be absolutely inevitable, but some do regard this as "involving musicality" and even get to like the sound.
Marco has already set fire to his amplifier once :) I rather think this "mythical" 100w from a pair of 88's in ab push pull will provide an even bigger bang eventually. :lol:
and while we are on the subject of cross-over distortion, or switching distortion is what i think your refering to, i would think that that would be more of an obvious trate to your 500watt amp, and would be un-bearable to my ears! unless of course it has a large amount of that power in class A, SO WHAT IS ITS FIGURES, how much of that 500 watts is pure rms, or is it all music power figures.;)
Filterlab
04-05-2008, 10:42
Blimey arent you supposed to be in church chillin out on Sundays....
He's been, but he left early to write that post. :lol:
jc,
what is your point, you can go on spitting out quotes and figures, and i can go on answering you with other figures and quotes, but the top and bottom of it is, marco likes his amp, he likes what it does better than anything else he has had before, be solid state or what ever,and he is not alone, there are a huge number of people all over the world that share the same feelings, now what ever you can prove with test equipment its not going to change what they hear and like. i also share their views, i am not a romanticist, i dont use valves because i feel some sort of empathy for them, or their circuitry, i use them because they sound right! believe me, if i could get the same sort of enjoyment i get from my system using anything else, that was cheaper, easier to make and used less power consumption, i would use it without a second of hesitation!;)
anthony...
What is your beef anthony :)
marco likes his amp, there are (should be is) a huge number of people all over the world that share the same feelings,
This is untrue, the number might seem big to you, since you are a niche market supplier in a niche market, but it is infinitely small compared to those using ss amps, and for good reason. Surely you are not suggesting that they are all wrong ? every single one of them ? :
believe me, if i could get the same sort of enjoyment i get from my system using anything else, that was cheaper, easier to make and used less power consumption,
I suggest that ss amps *are* "cheaper, easier, and more efficient", whether you can get the same enjoyment is up to you, but please don't hobble everyone else. Please allow them to make their own choices.
Must I be castigated at every opportunity for being able to form and support my own opinions ? :confused:
anthonyTD
04-05-2008, 11:10
What is your beef anthony :)
This is untrue, the number might seem big to you, since you are a niche market supplier in a niche market, but it is infinitely small compared to those using ss amps, and for good reason. They know their kit is better. Surely you are not suggesting that they are all wrong ? every single one of them ? :)
I suggest that ss amps *are* "cheaper, easier, and more efficient", whether you can get the same enjoyment is up to you, but please don't hobble everyone else. Please allow them to make their own choices.
Why do you object so much to me stating these obvious facts and having my own preferences ?
Must I be castigated at every opportunity for being able to form and support my own opinions ? :confused:
jc,
you know, and i know, that the majority of people use ss, because its convenient, and because most of the younger generation coming into the hi fi market have never heard valve equipment, but as with marco,[see i still class his age as young] as soon as they have heard what valves are capable of, they stick with it!
i have no beef with you jc, in fact i have stuck my neck out on this forum defending you and what you say, it would seem to some, maybe more than i should have, but the top and bottom of it is, you only seem to answer the posts/threads where you can see a way of shooting down the other party, we never get straight answers and facts to the important ones put to you, why is this?;)
Ian Walker
04-05-2008, 11:19
He's been, but he left early to write that post. :lol:
I reckon he's gone back to pray for forgiveness:lol:
Well sorry if you feel that way Anthony, it is quite proper for you to defend me against the more unreasonable and technically unaware elements on this forum.
I feel that if Marco loses his control he will simply lash out from frustration, so I don't want to discuss it anymore.
I have done my best to give answers to questions and I cannot atm recall any avoidances.
anthonyTD
04-05-2008, 11:26
I reckon he's gone back to pray for forgiveness:lol:
watch it sooty!!!:lol::eyebrows::gig::ner:
I feel that if Marco loses his control he will simply lash out from frustration, so I don't want to discuss it anymore.
Well if he does he'll be more than justified!
I suggest you re-read my earlier post, fully absorb its content, and start acting on it or your days here are numbered. At the moment you're just an irritant. I've been very fair with you, JC, but there is a limit to my patience.
Marco.
I reckon he's gone back to pray for forgiveness:lol:
More like have him burn in eternal damnation! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Must I be castigated at every opportunity for being able to form and support my own opinions ? :confused:
I think that deserves an answer because it's key to why you're always getting people's backs up.
The problem, JC, is that when forming your own opinions you often present them as fact, not as merely opinions, even when discussing non-technical matters, whilst at the same time rubbishing and being rudely dismissive of the equally valid opinions of others. It is extremely disrespectful. People used to treat me like that on other forums and I in turn treated them with the contempt they deserved. I've been fairer with you because somewhere inside that stubborn and absolutist engineer's head I believe you have something positive to contribute.
Remember the conversation we had on the phone about respect? Well unfortunately it appears to have gone in one ear and out the other!!
You need to understand that your opinion on subjective hi-fi matters (and even some of the objective variety) is no more 'right' or 'wrong' than anyone else's, and give other people who have a different mentality and views to you the respect they deserve. You might also want to mention this to Ashley because he suffers from the very same affliction! Until you start doing this there is no future for you on this forum.
I suggest that you take some time out to think about this and whether or not you wish to contribute further.
Marco.
Ian Walker
04-05-2008, 12:55
watch it sooty!!!:lol::eyebrows::gig::ner:
ssssssssssssssshorry Billy:lol:
The image beside the words "Barber Shop" looks disturbingly like a bell-end.
Are you trying to tell Anthony something? :lol:
Marco.
Ian Walker
04-05-2008, 13:13
Tell you what mate if youve got one like that you need to get shome help:lol:
Hehe... You've got to admit it does look 'mildly phallic'!
Marco.
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