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drSM
08-05-2017, 02:09
Calling td124 users

I have a particularly noisy 124.
These are the 2 124 mk II s i have:
124/graham1.5/V15/ light hollow plinth (tt1) is not totally quiet but i find it acceptable. It has mushrooms.
124/3012 II - fully serviced / DL103R heavy plinth (tt2) also on mushrooms currently, is a noisy rumbler :(

Both have had their motors serviced by my pal Lee using parts from Mirko Djor...
both have new belts
tt1 has a new idler from Mirko (i think) that looks identical to the original.
tt2 has the O ring idler from AudioSilente ( but i have put in the better of the 2 old ones, and rumble may be worse than with the O ring)

tt1 has pretty standard looking new motor grommets.
tt2 has had 3 sets of motor grommets , now with the Hanse coil springs but sadly this has not dramatically reduced the rumble.

Some of you prefer light hollow ortofon style plinths, some of u prefer solid heavier ones.
Mushrooms are used by some of u while some would bolt the chassis tight to the plinth.
Is there a concensus ? perhaps mushrooms for hollow plinths, no mushrooms and tight fit for solid plinths?
My problem is that tt2, aside from its rumble is also badly affected by resonance - tapping the plinth and armboard while the stylus is at the end of the vinyl produces an horrid thud.
tt1 (sitting beside it on the same rack) is much less sensitive.
Both my plinths are made locally. in fact the heavy plinth on which tt2 sits is a diy job using 3 slabs of ikea kitchen top of beach ie 3x 4 cm slabs glued.
The lovely plinths made by StereoLab, Schopper or Jim Thompson that some of you have described on earlier 124 threads are for too expensive for me out here in asia esp when the shipping is considered.

I would also value your opinions on the influence of the 6 platter pads arranged in a circle on the top of the bottom platter.
These pads are so hard on my 50 yr old 124s they re virtually petrified rubber.
I imagine they may play a crucial role in decoupling the 2 platters and may therefore influence the transmission of noise from the motor thru belt/idler/ bottom platter to the top platter and to the vinyl onto which the stulus is sitting.
I have ordered a couple of sets of silicone rubber pads from an eBayer in the US ( actually i bought all 3 remaining sets, so i cant show the link now!) in my desperate attempt to sort out these issues.
Value your comments . Many thanks.

DiveDeepDog
08-05-2017, 09:23
TonyL (PFM owner) had a long saga of noisy 124, he finally sorted it with the correct sized belt. I'd start there?

I got a selection for mine on his recommendation, although (embarrassed) my 124 is collecting dust.

There's a US site (can't remember off hand) which does a large variety, decent prices and quality.

spendorman
08-05-2017, 09:58
There is much talk about the TD124 these days, but I don't hear much talk about the Papst motor conversion. I bought the conversion kit from Metrosound, probably about 1976. I still have the original motor.

https://flic.kr/p/7HCAo9

https://flic.kr/p/7HCAs9

https://flic.kr/p/7HCAyq

https://flic.kr/p/7HCAvC

simon e
08-05-2017, 12:46
Have you tried a bit of taulk on the belt. Works wonders on my 124 every 6 months or so.

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drSM
09-05-2017, 02:26
Shuck sorry to bring up so many issues in 1 thread !
Bloody frustrating to still have these issues while I ve been improving the 3012 with new wiring, bearings, headshell and mpingo spacer on Marco's advice to squeeze out the very best out of the DL103R

Simon did u mean talcum powder ?

I have a plan. Will sort out plinth first to sort out resonances . Make a new one . experiment with mushroom or no mushroom.

Re rumble : I have a new belt to try which is the very oneIs recommended by Tony of pfm

If that does not work to reduce rumble i will pack the bloody motor to Jim Campbell in the US

Is the Papst quieter Alex ?

and thank you all

Ammonite Audio
09-05-2017, 07:36
In my experience, much of the noise and 'rumble' with the TD-124 comes from the idler wheel/stepped pulley interface. That noise is mechanically and faithfully transmitted through the chassis and to the armboard. Assuming that the idler wheel is a good one with a new sintered bronze bush, the main culprit is probably worn stepped pulley bushes. It's surprising how such little things can make such a racket. These bushes are a standard metric size and easily obtainable online, but a bit of very careful reaming is usually required to provide a good fit with the stepped pulley spindle.

How to diagnose where the noise is coming from? Take the platter off and press an ear or a stethoscope onto the armboard while engaging the speed control lever. With the motor running, move the idler wheel swing arm away from the stepped pulley so that you can hear the noise when it's just the motor and stepped pulley running. If there is a lot of noise without the idler engaged, then it probably comes from the motor. Next, engage the idler wheel with the stepped pulley - if there's a massive increase in transmitted noise, then first change the idler wheel to see if anything changes, and if not, look to replace the stepped pulley bushes. In the TD-124 Mk2 there should be a little hard plastic thrust pad that the stepped pulley spindle runs on - it's quite easy to lose!

Regarding plinths, Jim Campbell once told me that with a heavy plinth, it's best to bolt the deck down firmly, without mushrooms. I chose to ignore his advice and bought a set of expensive gel mushrooms, but he was 100% correct and I learnt my lesson. An idler deck like the TD-124 needs a mass 'sink' where vibrations can be drained away, and rubber mushrooms just mean that noise generated within the deck has nowhere to go.

It is definitely worth replacing hardened rubber platter pads. Also, my TD-124 benefits from regular cleaning off rubber belt gunge from the motor pulley and stepped pulley edges, followed by a light application of talc on the belt (as already mentioned above).

I hope that helps. There's a very good Facebook group "Thorens TD-124 Friends" at https://www.facebook.com/groups/324351847746115/ and you'll get good advice there, particularly from Jaap Pees.

spendorman
09-05-2017, 08:31
"Is the Papst quieter Alex ?"

Hi Shahrin

Yes, I think it is, but the original motor can be quiet enough, as Hugo says "much of the noise and 'rumble' with the TD-124 comes from the idler wheel/stepped pulley interface." I would investigate as suggested by Hugo.

simon e
09-05-2017, 12:44
Simon did u mean talcum powder ?


Yes that's exactly what I meant.

Looks enough have some excellent advice below and I will try the recommendations myself as I still have a tiny bit of noise from my deck if you listen closely when it's running.

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drSM
09-05-2017, 15:35
Indeed Simon
Few gems there Hugo. Big Thanks
I am a dr but as a radiologist have long ditched the stethoscope so i had to figure out a way to get ear on chassis without damaging anything (arm/stylus and my own neck!) while maintaing the dexterity to engage and disengage the idler . Not so easy.
I left that there was a low level of noise without the idler and this was accentuated somewhat by engaing the idler. Significantly ? probably.
I removed idler and the subsequently the stepped pulley and inspected them.
Seemed ok so i have put it all together .
The mushrooms have been removed and the plinth sits on a Soundstyle rack on small silicone pads .
Dare I say it but what i ve been calling rumble has diminished and what i felt was resonance has diminished too.
Basically it sounds nicer.
More twiddling to do and i have to understand that stepped pulley and its bushes.
There is the talc trick to try
I feel that the motor which was serviced (together with the motor of my quieter 124) spins nicely and quietly - on turning off the power (without the belt) it spins a long time before coming to a stop.

So the big take home here - heavy plinth, no mushrooms.

drSM
12-05-2017, 04:55
Let me indulge u folks
This is tt1 (the quieter one) with platter off
See stethoscope end on middle of armboard
Careful listening on turning on the deck, and idler engages and spins.
Finger gently disengages idler (its spring loaded).
Noise clearly worse when idler engages and spins.
Verdict : Its the idler !

drSM
12-05-2017, 05:21
This is the noisier tt2
It has the O ring idler from audiosilente in Italy

Verdict here too that the idler is the culprit
Convincingly louder than on tt1. There is even a repetitive 'grinding' sort of sound with each turn of the idler.

I whipped of the idler and tried the 2 old original idlers from these decks - they were even worse.

drSM
12-05-2017, 11:48
Both idlers are quite new
The idler in tt1 i think i got from a fella in the US called mirko djordjevic
The O ring idler in tt2 is from eBayer Audiosilente
So both of the idlers or the idler assemblies are 'noisy'

The diagram below details the idler assembly
I got that from http://www.theanalogdept.com/td124_notes.htm with this note:

Don't forget that little thrust washer at the bottom of the idler wheel. It is too easily ignored. Noisy idler? make sure its there

Both of mine were assembled without any washers !
I think this is the key - metal rubbing on metal - not good.
I feel the more important one is the 'white nylon washer' and there should probably be at least one fibre washer below that and the whole assembly adjusted to fit with the stepped pulley.

My tts were refurbished by a pretty careful guy abt 2 years ago- he did good with both tts - both were stripped and serviced with motor rebuilds and tt1 was painted silver becos of bad oxidation - but he failed to do the idlers correctly.

the other pic shows 3 fibre washers i got with the audiosilente O ring.

This looks like the solution to my problem of rumble
http://www.schopper.ch/index.php?page=Noise-Reduction-Kit

Ammonite Audio
12-05-2017, 11:52
Don't waste your money with the Schopper kit - you've already hit on the importance of the washers and this does not add anything useful. I know, because I bought this kit.

drSM
13-05-2017, 00:26
Don't waste your money with the Schopper kit - you've already hit on the importance of the washers and this does not add anything useful. I know, because I bought this kit.

Thank you Hugo, you just saved me 112 swiss francs. ( 2 x kit + shipping)
Much appreciated. I ll be on the lookout for a nice smooth nylon washer or 2

The Black Adder
13-05-2017, 06:36
Hi Shahrin.

I had my TD124 fully refurbished by Schopper in 2010 and I must admit they did a superb job and worth the money IMO but as said by Hugo, the idler washer thing isn't a good buy on it's own.

If you haven't already, you should fit the Audiosilente main bearing gasket. This is another great upgrade. Another great recommendation from Hugo. :)

Glad your sorted. :)

Vinyl turner
13-05-2017, 08:03
........ have long ditched the stethoscope so i had to figure out a way to get ear on chassis without damaging anything (arm/stylus and my own neck!) while maintaing the dexterity to engage and disengage the idler . Not so easy.


For anyone else having ear to chassis problems a cheap solution is such as this :-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MECHANICS-ENGINEERS-STETHOSCOPE-NOISE-LOCATION-ENGINES-/282067939673?hash=item41ac8f3159:i:282067939673

drSM
13-05-2017, 08:52
Hi Shahrin.

I had my TD124 fully refurbished by Schopper in 2010 and I must admit they did a superb job and worth the money IMO but as said by Hugo, the idler washer thing isn't a good buy on it's own.

If you haven't already, you should fit the Audiosilente main bearing gasket. This is another great upgrade. Another great recommendation from Hugo. :)

Glad your sorted. :)

when my 124s were refurbished i gathered a whole bunch of parts from various sources.
Mirko D supplied many parts. He makes a variety of excellent parts and has put his wares on eBay but he can be pain to deal with.
from father's illness to divorce(s) he takes forever :(
I thiink the bearings bits were from him and they looked real good. Motor service kit too.
I was looking at the idler from Mirko when i too the platter off tt1 - its very well made and resembles the original.
hmm must have a look around in the old packages - see if there s a nylon washer or two that failed to find right home.

Good idea Mark !

drSM
30-05-2017, 04:57
It turns out that the nylon washer was there !.
This is probably the original - a very thin nylatron type.
I missed it when i removed the idler wheel, but my pal Lee confirmed it was there all along.
So he adjusted the stepped pulley and idler assemblies.
(The bushes were fine in his opinion)

What then was identified as the next major source of noise was the main platter bearing.
Turned out that there were flat spots on this 6 mm bearing.
It has been replaced.
btw the thrust plate was replaced about 2 yrs ago by part brob from this Mirko guy in the US.
Further mods included replacing the 4 threaded rods by longer ones so the chassis is now secured by 4 bolts at the bottom of the plinth.

There are other mods to the armboard as i have switched back to the thick original Swiss wooden armboard (from a crappy L shaped one).
Its much quieter when knocked - but i will discuss that an another thread i started about mods to the 3012, headshell etc to update the rm and optimise to the 103R.

I am really happy that the noise level is much reduced now to a level I can live with.

drSM
02-06-2017, 01:43
I seem to be talking to myself but wtf:)
I also got these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/172633471309?ul_noapp=true

as mine were ossified being 50 yrs old.
Look at the pic and u will see that this guy meerp1 also makes a brand new slightly thicker top platter for the 124
He has put that up on eBay before. Looks very nice.

simon e
02-06-2017, 11:26
Yes I need some new pads for my TD124. I have been using a silicon gel tape, made out of the same stuff used in the motor vibration dampers. But because the tape has a slightly rough edge when cut into little pads it tends to get pealed off the plater.

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