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Neil McCauley
02-05-2008, 10:07
Are Linn as a culture / philosophy – and as a supplier of equipment – increasingly an irrelevance to many audiophile enthusiasts these days? If so, what's the evidence to support that view – or to contradict it? Here’s the tricky bit, evidence please (either way) but without reference to nostalgia and sentimentality. Thank you.

jcbrum
02-05-2008, 10:41
IMHO, the most significant evidence is the price asked for the equipment. Bearing in mind that hifi is a consumer product.

Higher quality goods are available to do a better job at much lower prices.

This is because of the manufacturing and retailing model that Linn employ. For example, in other fields, avoiding a dealer markup can reduce the price by half.

I would imagine that Naim and a few others have the same problem.

Their goods imo are not the best sound available, and at the price cannot sell effectively against other, better products.

If they are not already irrelevant, then they may soon be so, because they'll be out of business.

I predict company sell-offs to "brand-buyers" asap.

I'll go and hide in the cellar now. :)

Neil McCauley
02-05-2008, 11:13
Yes, I agree with you. Yours is a concise, rational and objective summing up - and I thank you for it. We can, I hope, look forward to additional and possibly differing views. HP

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 11:19
IMHO, the most significant evidence is the price asked for the equipment. Bearing in mind that hifi is a consumer product.

Higher quality goods are available to do a better job at much lower prices.

This is because of the manufacturing and retailing model that Linn employ. For example, in other fields, avoiding a dealer markup can reduce the price by half.

I would imagine that Naim and a few others have the same problem.

Their goods imo are not the best sound available, and at the price cannot sell effectively against other, better products.

If they are not already irrelevant, then they may soon be so, because they'll be out of business.

I predict company sell-offs to "brand-buyers" asap.

I'll go and hide in the cellar now. :)[/QUOTE]

I have to agree with JC here, there are better quality components available for less money. However both Linn and Naim were very strong contenders in the 80s and 90s and they built an excellent name and strong brand loyalty for themselves. Whether that loyalty continues is questionable, if the companies get too lazy then it's all too easy to undo decades of market leading, however if they suddenly drop all their prices (a la Musical Fidelity) then people lose faith in the brand and start to buy without assumption, which is normally when people find a much better product at a lower price. :)


I'll go and hide in the cellar now. :)

No need! :lol:

griffo104
02-05-2008, 14:53
Obviously as a person owning Linn gear then I'll totally disagree and to be honest this just seems like somebody wanting to have a go at a manufacturer they don't like.

what a silly idea for a thread.

Linn a good British manufacturer who have made decent components over the years, one or two ropey ones much like other manufacturers, but have been consistent. I've been a very happy Linn user for many years and have had nothing but excellent service from them.

their Majik system is excellent sounnding and is priced ok for the market they are aiming for compared to others, in fact the Majik cdp is as good as most £2k players out there and better than most.

Yes, the LP12 is overpriced compared to the competition out there now and for a similar price you will get a far better TT from the likes of Brinkmann, Michell, Avid, Kuzma, and plenty of others.

Personally I would still rather pay the extra to get a dealer to install and help setup my hifi then buy blind off the internet or some ebay shop.

Service is part of the mark up, you either decide it's worthwhile and pay the extra to the dealer or decide it isn't and go elsewhere.

I still enjoy my Linn gear and haven't heard anything at the price that I would swap it for.

Tell you what, we don't kill off ALL the UK hifi companies, and really screw up UK manufacturing, what a stupid thread this is Mr Popeck. I suppose you would rather we bought overpriced American gear instead ?

Let's do away with dealers trying to make a living as well, damn that mark up. I think all these people should give up and LET us have the gear, maybe they can even pay us for it.

Mike
02-05-2008, 15:05
Oh, I wouldn't be quite so 'touchy' Griffo, I think Howard is only trying to stimulate some interesting discussion. ;)

Note his comment below:


We can, I hope, look forward to additional and possibly differing views. HP

Cheers,
Mike.

griffo104
02-05-2008, 15:14
Oh, I wouldn't be quite so 'touchy' Griffo, I think Howard is only trying to stimulate some interesting discussion. ;)

Note his comment below:



Cheers,
Mike.

Ok Mike maybe I was being a little touchy, but Linn and Naim bashing seems to be prevalent on most forums, usually started off from 'industry' folk who feel a little hard done by in the 80's heyday of these companies.

I see no difference to Howard's thread than Richard's - let's do away with dealers and flog all our stuff on the internet cos it's cheaper and do away with evil dealers and their mark up.

These new ways are perfectly acceptable and I accept it can give a cheaper way of buying, but before addressing the irrelevance of companies such as Linn, may be look at the price distrubtors are charging for American gear which cost the same £ for $ ratio rather than the near 2 to 1 ratio the currently exists. I see most UK and European stuff is going up big time in the US due to the weak dollar but yet we still pay through the nose for stuff imported in to this country.

If you want to change a model for costing and service then maybe look at these guys BEFORE you look at companies within our own isle.

Steve Toy
02-05-2008, 15:33
I think Linn (and/or Naim) is something that every recorded music lover needs to have owned at some point in their lives just for that music first reference point.

From then on it is a case of finding other brands that do it better and/or for less money. I still believe that the tune dem is a very effective method for evaluating and choosing all of your kit from an interconnect, a mains lead or block, a spike or isolation point, a stand, the electronics right through to the speakers. The winning components are not necessarily those from Linn (or Naim) even if you do use a method of evaluation favoured by these brands in particular.

Being a flat earther is a state of mind and how you listen not a statement of brand loyalty.

griffo104
02-05-2008, 15:43
Being a flat earther is a state of mind and how you listen not a statement of brand loyalty.

A very good point :rock:

SteveW
02-05-2008, 15:54
OK..
As an owner of a whole pile of Linn kit inevitably I'm going to agree with Griffo.

However..Howards original posting asked whether it was felt that Linn's philosophy and products were an irrelevance to audiophiles today.

Looking at the pricing of much of the present kit might suggest that, but I really would urge anyone, even out of idle curiosity to go and listen to their DS equipment.

Expensive, yes...but awesome music reproduction and pointing in the right direction for audiophile future in the face of a music industry in meltdown.

Colinx
02-05-2008, 16:00
They very well could be, as could a number of higher priced brands. I do however hope not, they are one of the few UK brands that still at least fill the boxes in our green and something land, and offer something a touch different, both in terms of style, sound, service and back-up that is a bit different to the 'norm'. The prices attached to some of the equipment is taking the urine a touch tough.
I have not owned linn, came very close when I bought my latest CD player, The Majik is as good, or better than most up to it's price, and if the Linn sound is what you want, then its not bad value, and I can understand why people like the Linn Sound.

Colin - a sort of flat earther, with the odd bump on the horizon.

Neil McCauley
02-05-2008, 16:21
Obviously as a person owning Linn gear then I'll totally disagree and to be honest this just seems like somebody wanting to have a go at a manufacturer they don't like.

what a silly idea for a thread.

Linn a good British manufacturer who have made decent components over the years, one or two ropey ones much like other manufacturers, but have been consistent. I've been a very happy Linn user for many years and have had nothing but excellent service from them.

Yes, the LP12 is overpriced compared to the competition out there now and for a similar price you will get a far better TT from the likes of Brinkmann, Michell, Avid, Kuzma, and plenty of others.

I still enjoy my Linn gear and haven't heard anything at the price that I would swap it for.

Tell you what, we don't kill off ALL the UK hifi companies, and really screw up UK manufacturing, what a stupid thread this is Mr Popeck. I suppose you would rather we bought overpriced American gear instead ?

Let's do away with dealers trying to make a living as well, damn that mark up. I think all these people should give up and LET us have the gear, maybe they can even pay us for it.
Hello Griffo104

I guess from your comment that either you'd prefer self-censorship regarding anything that might offend your sensibilities – or is it you didn't understand the question I posed?

Freedom of expression is exclusively yours is it? I left that arrogance (still a few left though) behind in my teen years. Moreover, what's your remit for being the arbiter of silliness, if indeed anything on a forum is 'silly'?

Re your comments about dealers - and your point is what precisely? I don't recall mentioning dealers. Why try to skew the thread? Are you a Linn dealer in disguise - or merely one of the shrinking number of Linn evangelists – or both? I guess one can't be one without being the other. Silly question on my part I guess.

As for the 'threat' - what's all that about then? Or do you mean you perceive even an uncomplicated question is a threat to your ego and status? If so, isn't Linn's own forum likely to be a more stress-less place for you?

Incidentally, I notice that you totally ignored the gentle suggestion to avoid "nostalgia and sentimentality" and have chosen to express your views, as indeed is your prerogative (despite being both unhelpful and atypical in the context of this thread) in sentimental and nostalgic, if not rose-tinted emotional terms. It's "only hi-fi dear". Meanwhile I remain ignorant as to how your emotional response can add to the sum of objective and rational comment from all the other forum members who have contributed to this thread thus far. Mind you, that might be my inability to read between your lines. It happens.

Anyway, I was hoping for all views and for this reason, I thank you for yours. I don't agree with it – but I uphold your right to express it, silliness notwithstanding!

Marco
02-05-2008, 18:48
Howard,


Are Linn as a culture / philosophy – and as a supplier of equipment – increasingly an irrelevance to many audiophile enthusiasts these days?


I would say yes; purely because in my opinion they haven't produced anything truly iconic for years. I simply don't think they are the company that they once were. Love it or loathe it, the LP12 was/is an iconic and legendary product (even if Ivor stole the idea from others), and in my opinion the Karik/Numerik, and more recently, the CD12, were superb examples from their respective eras of the art of CD replay. The Kremlin was also in my opinion a superb analogue tuner and, along with the NAT-01 from Naim, far better than the abomination of DAB offerings nowadays.

I feel that Linn have taken their foot of the gas, as far as 2-channel audio is concerned, and appear to be trading on their name and past reputation. However, they've got multi-room down to a fine art, as they achieved from early on, and I think some of their latest computer audio products are in the top rank, if somewhat ridiculously priced.

That's the biggest problem I have with Linn these days: the somewhat gauche way they exploit the 'aspiration(al)' aspect of hi-fi and the ridiculous premium attached to owning the Linn badge, which has ostracised the older more discerning enthusiasts and pandered to the preening sensibilities of the lifestyle set. Nevertheless, I would not like to see them fail and go bust because they are one of the few famous British audio companies left, even if they are a pale imitation of their former selves.

Marco.

Neil McCauley
02-05-2008, 19:00
Marco, beautifully put. I feel that in the main, you've pretty much summed up my own views and probably better than I could. Thank you.

I did write an extensive piece on the company shortly after they announced massive redundancies. I looked in vain for any mention of any of the directors responsible for this, falling on their swords. Not a bit of it. Anyway, it can be found here as "Linn’s hubris? Mr Tiefenbrun resurrected?"

http://blog.listencarefully.co.uk/?p=1050

Thanks again.

HP

Filterlab
02-05-2008, 19:38
Marco, beautifully put. I feel that in the main, you've pretty much summed up my own views and probably better than I could. Thank you....

Marco has a bit of a talent for that. :)

Mike
02-05-2008, 19:42
Yes, well put!

Especially for an Italian Scott living in Wales... :D


;)

Mike
02-05-2008, 20:05
I used to use an all Linn system, well apart from speakers, actually I don't think I've EVER heard any Linn speakers.... :scratch:

My LP12 was an ever present item in my system for 18 years! The only thing I have left now is an (unused) interconnect.

They aren't what they used to be IMHO, which is pretty sad really. :(


Mike.

Chris Frost
02-05-2008, 23:05
Are Linn as a culture / philosophy – increasingly an irrelevance to many audiophile enthusiasts these days?
Of course Linn is less relevant to audiophiles, but IMO audiophiles are less relevant to Linn too.

The Hi-Fi market has changed so much since the heyday of the 80's. Linn has adapted and found new markets, but this is nothing new. It was just as pioneering in the 80's with the fabled "tune dems" and in the 90's when it was one of the first companies to offer a complete playback chain from disc to speakers. For the last 10 years the company has been looking at emerging markets - lifestyle, multiroom, marine - that are alien to most of us Hi-Fi purists. It might not be what we want from Linn, but it means the company has survived at a time when the traditional Hi-Fi market has been shrinking.

My experience of Linn goes back to the mid 80's when I worked for a dealer, then through the 90's and noughties as I worked for distributors and manufacturers supplying the HiFi trade. I have got to know lots of dealers and discussed how Linn has treated them as part of my overall business conversations.

IMO Linn's problem is in trying to maintain a foot in both Hi-Fi and Lifestyle markets with the same Linn or nothing approach. I know retailers and custom installation dealers from Glasgow to Manchester who have fallen foul of this policy as Linn has had its periodic spring cleans.

Regards

Marco
04-05-2008, 16:25
I have now pruned the thread of the political and Royalist nonsense, which for those interested can now be found in a separate thread in Abstract Chat. Howard, you can now have your thread back! :)

Marco.

Neil McCauley
04-05-2008, 20:21
Thank you Marco. I like your style. Really!

Neil McCauley
04-05-2008, 20:27
Of course Linn is less relevant to audiophiles, but IMO audiophiles are less relevant to Linn too.

Regards

This is a most interesting (for me at least) inversion.

In retrospect. I would have been more sensible to have posed the original question as "Are Linn's historic customer base largely irrelevant to Linn?"

Thank you for catalysing an alternative and I believe superior approach. I'm currently rethinking the phraseology of my next question to the forum sometime next week. Sincerely, HP

Marco
05-05-2008, 10:18
Howard,

I agree, and think Chris has made an excellent point. We look forward to your next discussion topic with interest!

Meanwhile, have you seen the link to your website in our Links Box below?

http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=123#post123

Marco.

Neil McCauley
06-05-2008, 13:57
Thank you for the link. Much appreciated, and not taken for granted. Not even a little bit. Sincerely, HP.

DSJR
06-05-2008, 18:01
I agree that Linn have found new markets as they've lost their old customers by and large, they've had to to survive and as long as the custom install and multi-room market doesn't dry up, they'll fulfil the "top end B&O" role admirably. And don't knock B&O either, as they've genuinely been a good influence over the decades, well away from "top end" influences and their top model active speakers (weird looking things) are truly innovative and very good if listened to with an open mind I understand.

Marco
06-05-2008, 18:18
Yep, I agree.

Is that a Marantz CDP of some description in your avatar? :)

Marco.

DSJR
06-05-2008, 18:27
Yep, I agree.

Is that a Marantz CDP of some description in your avatar? :)

Marco.

Once I can get on my office PC I'll shrink it down..

It's a Micro Seiki CDM-2 from ther late eighties, based on a Marantz chassis, but with a trick or two up its sleeve. Re-clocked and used from its balanced outputs (even into phono plugs), it still sounds really good to me and I reckon I'd have to spend a lot of dosh to replace it (don't tell me, a Cambridge 840 will annihilate it :D)

Marco
06-05-2008, 18:37
No chance. You're in good company here!

I bet you it is bloody brilliant, mate. I thought it looked a bit like a CD12. Classic CDPs rule! I use a modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 combo (yes the DAS-R1 DAC uses Philips TDA 1541 single crowns ;)) and I haven't heard a modern CDP yet at any price that outperforms it!

Marco.

Filterlab
06-05-2008, 21:02
...(don't tell me, a Cambridge 840 will annihilate it :D)

LOL! Errrr, no.

Steve Toy
07-05-2008, 00:50
Once I can get on my office PC I'll shrink it down..



There's really no need as yet for such things. Main images, as opposed to avatars are hosted by third parties so I don't think there will be a bandwidth problem. If such an issue does crop up at a later date I'll deal with it then.

We like big bold images at the Art of Sound as long as they fit within a normal sized screen without the need for scrolling vertically and/or horizontally.

Marco
07-05-2008, 07:06
I agree that Linn have found new markets as they've lost their old customers by and large, they've had to to survive and as long as the custom install and multi-room market doesn't dry up, they'll fulfil the "top end B&O" role admirably. And don't knock B&O either, as they've genuinely been a good influence over the decades, well away from "top end" influences and their top model active speakers (weird looking things) are truly innovative and very good if listened to with an open mind I understand.

I agree, particularly with your point about B&O. Everyone (people like us) slags them off but they actually make some incredibly high quality and good sounding equipment these days. They went through a dodgy patch in the 90s, but some of the gear they made in the 70s, for example, was innovative, especially in terms of design, and had top-notch sound quality, too. It was a truly high-end brand in those days and only the most affluent of people could afford their products.

I would say B&O were more genuinely 'high-end' in their golden era than Linn are now in the current marketplace.

Marco.

Filterlab
07-05-2008, 08:10
Whatever one says about B&O, they've always had a knack for styling. My all time favourite is the Beocenter9000 from the late eighties. So cool, I can see why their stuff sells. :)

http://www.saturdayaudio.com/picturepages/B&O_Beocenter9000_a.jpg

DSJR
07-05-2008, 15:46
I always loved the 3000/4000/5000amp and tuner "slide-rule" series from the early seventies. They had ideas beyond their station even then and some of these units with a fault were a nightmare to pin down I've read.

Having said all that, The Beomaster 4400 and the earlier (and greater) Beolab 5000 amp sounded really good into Saras, these having less distortion than the others apparently and, like all B&O amps at the time, were designed for 4 Ohm loads!!!!!!!

Filterlab
08-05-2008, 08:47
Beomaster 4400, love those sliders:

http://www.jvanschaikconsultancy.nl/radiomuseum/bang&olufsen/beomaster4400/front.jpg

And who could forget the Beocenter 2300 with it's sliding doors? Very cool.

http://www.beoworld.org/assets/thumbnails/tufreehun_2.jpg

Marco
08-05-2008, 14:20
Yep, the top bit looks somewhat like Steve's Bel canto. I wonder if that's where they obtained the idea?

Marco.

Filterlab
08-05-2008, 14:23
Don't know, but those illuminated buttons are lovely and rarely seen on modern equipment. The last I recall was the TEAC VRDS range of players. :)

Marco
08-05-2008, 14:30
Yep, I'm with you on the illuminated buttons, but not on the 'sliders'. They look just a bit too dated for me and as 'volume pots' I suspect they’re not the last word in resolution, or stereo accuracy ;)

The best thing for me about 'retro' is illuminated 'VU' meters! I just love those with a passion, particularly their effect in a darkened room. It's one of the reasons why I love McIntosh gear! Anything that lights up nicely, I'm into :) There's not enough of that kind of stuff on gear nowadays.

Marco.

DSJR
08-05-2008, 15:01
I feel SOOOOOOO old........

I loved the Accuphase meters - big and yellow.........

Filterlab
08-05-2008, 15:42
...The best thing for me about 'retro' is illuminated 'VU' meters! I just love those with a passion, particularly their effect in a darkened room. It's one of the reasons why I love McIntosh gear!...

I am so with you on that, the McIntosh gear looks superb. Never been quite convinced with the sound per pound though.

Neil McCauley
08-05-2008, 16:28
I owned the Nakamichi Receiver 'clone' of the Beomaster 4400. A rather fine unit. Built like a tank. The tuner section was superb. The amp section, although seriously powerful was only adequate.

griffo104
12-05-2008, 08:17
Hello Griffo104

I guess from your comment that either you'd prefer self-censorship regarding anything that might offend your sensibilities – or is it you didn't understand the question I posed?

Freedom of expression is exclusively yours is it? I left that arrogance (still a few left though) behind in my teen years. Moreover, what's your remit for being the arbiter of silliness, if indeed anything on a forum is 'silly'?

Re your comments about dealers - and your point is what precisely? I don't recall mentioning dealers. Why try to skew the thread? Are you a Linn dealer in disguise - or merely one of the shrinking number of Linn evangelists – or both? I guess one can't be one without being the other. Silly question on my part I guess.

As for the 'threat' - what's all that about then? Or do you mean you perceive even an uncomplicated question is a threat to your ego and status? If so, isn't Linn's own forum likely to be a more stress-less place for you?

Incidentally, I notice that you totally ignored the gentle suggestion to avoid "nostalgia and sentimentality" and have chosen to express your views, as indeed is your prerogative (despite being both unhelpful and atypical in the context of this thread) in sentimental and nostalgic, if not rose-tinted emotional terms. It's "only hi-fi dear". Meanwhile I remain ignorant as to how your emotional response can add to the sum of objective and rational comment from all the other forum members who have contributed to this thread thus far. Mind you, that might be my inability to read between your lines. It happens.

Anyway, I was hoping for all views and for this reason, I thank you for yours. I don't agree with it – but I uphold your right to express it, silliness notwithstanding!

Hi Howard,

Apologies for not responding earlier. My comment was a response to using a company like Linn as a thread heading and using them questioning them as an irrelevance. Which I dO think is silly for a thread and some of the points on this thread made by yourself and others have proved the point to me.

first, am I a dealer in disguise ? Sadly, no. I'm a computer programmer sat in a hot stuffy office typing this in now. Have I ever in any way been attached to a dealer or a manufacturer, NO, never have and I doubt I ever will.

There was no arrogance in my response, or at least I didn't think so.

I'll try to explain myself better.

Linn as mentioned have the iconic LP12 but why do they need to continually have iconic gear ? Few companies have and most never even produce an iconic piece of gear.

Linn produce the rather wonderful ClassiK, one of the first all-in-one systems by a major manufacturer, bring a taste of serious hifi to the masses, other companies have followed suite now and I know many people who have got into serious hifi based on this first purcahse.

As mentioned by Marco they produced the Karik/NumeriK combo using their own mechanisms and the cost of r 'n' d that produces, same with the Ikemi which was a wonderful cd player. The CD12 was developed from the ground up by them, not just going to purchase off the shelf goods by bigger mass-producing manufacturers and if it had a bit of unwanted cleverness due to the control system then why not ? It cost £12k and surely if spending silly money you want something extra as a customer.

I agree that doing away with the LK range was a bit silly and means that entry level is now at a price far outside of what most peiople can afford but the Majik system will compete with most systems at that price if the Linn sound suits you, and it does for some people even more than other people prefer it. The upgradability to active allows you to improve the sound while retaining the same gear and hate it or love it they have still looked at modern ways of improving the LP12 without the owner needing the sell it (ok some of these are expensive)

As for Linn being an irrelevance to the modern audiophile, the Klimax is an excellent set of amps, affordable compared the serious high end, filled with a lot of modern thinking technology. the Unidisk was the first time a serious hifi company decided to have a go at performing a serious universal player from the ground up, the Klimax DS is taking the dreaded downloads to a new level and proving it will beat cd replay in the future and as a record label they are allowing full studio masters to be downloaded and allow true high end sound available to the masses.

I mentioned dealers due to Linn tying themself in to dealers and expecting the dealer to do nicities such as installations and actually show the buyer how to use the gear. That was why I was mentioning dealers with regards to Linn, more companies should put more emphasis on dealer servicing.

So Linn are irrelevant to audiophiles ? This is why I think this is a silly thread.

Neil McCauley
12-05-2008, 08:36
Hi Howard,

Apologies for not responding earlier. My comment was a response to using a company like Linn as a thread heading and using them questioning them as an irrelevance. Which I dO think is silly for a thread and some of the points on this thread made by yourself and others have proved the point to me.

first, am I a dealer in disguise ? Sadly, no. I'm a computer programmer sat in a hot stuffy office typing this in now. Have I ever in any way been attached to a dealer or a manufacturer, NO, never have and I doubt I ever will.

There was no arrogance in my response, or at least I didn't think so.

I'll try to explain myself better.

Linn as mentioned have the iconic LP12 but why do they need to continually have iconic gear ? Few companies have and most never even produce an iconic piece of gear.

Linn produce the rather wonderful ClassiK, one of the first all-in-one systems by a major manufacturer, bring a taste of serious hifi to the masses, other companies have followed suite now and I know many people who have got into serious hifi based on this first purcahse.

As mentioned by Marco they produced the Karik/NumeriK combo using their own mechanisms and the cost of r 'n' d that produces, same with the Ikemi which was a wonderful cd player. The CD12 was developed from the ground up by them, not just going to purchase off the shelf goods by bigger mass-producing manufacturers and if it had a bit of unwanted cleverness due to the control system then why not ? It cost £12k and surely if spending silly money you want something extra as a customer.

I agree that doing away with the LK range was a bit silly and means that entry level is now at a price far outside of what most peiople can afford but the Majik system will compete with most systems at that price if the Linn sound suits you, and it does for some people even more than other people prefer it. The upgradability to active allows you to improve the sound while retaining the same gear and hate it or love it they have still looked at modern ways of improving the LP12 without the owner needing the sell it (ok some of these are expensive)

As for Linn being an irrelevance to the modern audiophile, the Klimax is an excellent set of amps, affordable compared the serious high end, filled with a lot of modern thinking technology. the Unidisk was the first time a serious hifi company decided to have a go at performing a serious universal player from the ground up, the Klimax DS is taking the dreaded downloads to a new level and proving it will beat cd replay in the future and as a record label they are allowing full studio masters to be downloaded and allow true high end sound available to the masses.

I mentioned dealers due to Linn tying themself in to dealers and expecting the dealer to do nicities such as installations and actually show the buyer how to use the gear. That was why I was mentioning dealers with regards to Linn, more companies should put more emphasis on dealer servicing.

So Linn are irrelevant to audiophiles ? This is why I think this is a silly thread.

=======

Thank you. Too much subjectivity and nostalgia, when objectivity is surely the rational response here? I appreciate your passion, but I remain unconvinced. Actually, even more unconvinced. My view remains that Linn and their ilk see customers as walking wallets on a continual basis and while the public are far from irrelevant to them - the reverse is true. For example, it seems that by common consent, other than the Linn Mujahadin of course, that a modest third-party company (Funk Firm) can do a better job of extracting music via the Linn than Linn can - and for very much less money.

As for the CD12, as far as I can recall, the World yawned - other than a few fawning reviewers of course.

The Unidisk? Surely an investment based on ego and very little else? What's the point of attempting to build (if you'll allow the analogy) the World's finest slide rule in the era of hand-held calculators? Bonkers.

Almost finally, if indeed as you seem to suggest that Linn are meeting the desires of their target market, how would you explain the massive redundancies last year? Some 30% of the unfortunate work force I believe. Meanwhile Rega. Meridian et al go from strength to strength?

Finally, all of this conjecture (including mine of course) and in your case, what seems like sincere albeit misguided corporate flag waving is irrelevant. Market forces will prevail. I leave you with this extract from a piece I wrote following the announcement of the Linn redundancies.

"It’s possible then that the people least responsible for the situation are the ones to pay the heaviest price? You know the answer. We all do. Axiomatically then, unless there is a wholesale sacrifice by the upper echelons of Linn, the very people on whom the workforce relied for continuity of employment will, other than short term embarrassment, have no price to pay.

Contrition? No. Accountability? Err, no, not that either.

As yet Mr. T has not publicly offered any contrition. Perhaps he feels no need. What we do have though, and this is what really sticks in my craw is that apparently it’s everyone else’s fault in general and The Labour Party in particular. Consider this rather obvious spin:

“Our approach has never been to give up and outsource to China or wherever. You might call it a genetic flaw on my part,” said Tiefenbrun.”

Fair enough you might think. However the word ‘never’ might cause some raised eyebrows when you remember that many Linn arms and cartridges were sourced outside the UK, and possibly still are.

I have searched for any commentary so far from the company in relation to this that uses the word ‘value’.

There are the buzz phrases such as “even higher quality products, specifically aimed at the premium end of the consumer electronics market” and “developing more goods to appeal to wealthy consumers.” One can only speculate as to the implications for current end-users re this. Nevertheless, the absence, from this highly intelligent and peerlessly articulate man of the word ‘value’ is for me puzzling."


The full piece can be read here: http://blog.listencarefully.co.uk/?p=1050

griffo104
12-05-2008, 08:50
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Thank you. Too much subjectivity and nostalgia, when objectivity is surely the rational response here? I appreciate your passion, but I remain unconvinced. My view remains that Linn and their ilk see customers as walking wallets on a continual basis and thus the public are far from irrelevant to them - but that arguably, the reverse is true.

As for the CD12, as far as I can recall, the World yawned - other than a few fawning reviewers of course.

Finally, if indeed as you seem to suggest that Linn are meeting the desires of their target market, how would you explain the massive redundancies last year? Some 30% of the unfortunate work force I believe. Meanwhile Rega. Meridian et al go from strength to strength?

Well I can't comment on the redundancies as I have now knowledge on the business and how it was being run. As mentioned I do think the biggest mistake they did was ditching the LK range which was affordable, and something I still own, (Majik, LK100,LK140 active into Keliedhs which is now all the Linn gear I have).

I think a lot of hifi manufacturers can fall in to this mistake qs regarding their customers as just walking wallets, and I wouldn't argue totally with you with regards to Linn in some respects, but from where I sit and look in they have a set of ranges which improve on each other, and at some cost and it is easy to see this hierarchy pf products, now take someone like Musical Fidelity. continually bringing out gear that is almost identical to the one it replaces, charging a little more and making huge boasts about it while geting it all built offshore and considerable cost savings to themselves.

which company really takes it's customer base for a ride in that situation ?

As for the CD12 I still regard it as one of the best cd players I've heard. Overpriced ? Yes a little but what it did is produce a sound which lacked any digital harshness and produced a more natural flow from cd than any other player I had heard at the time. Does it compete with the Esoterics, Weiss or DCS gear ? No probably not. It all depends how you wish to listen to cd replay.

As for the new Majik turntable. Well foronce Ithink the price of this is silly, and the point of it. It neither sounds or looks, or has the quality feel of a Gyro SE, Kuzma Satbi S, and yet costs more than either of those decks.

I still think one of the best bargains out there in hifi land is a good 2nd hand LP12.

With regards to Rega, will I only leave about 5 mins from the factory and the fact they still produce such affordable gear with the quality of back up is still outstanding, but Merdian ? I can't really see any affordable gear they make, even their fancy clock radio is stupidly expensive and as a radio doesn't beat the good ol' Tivoli at a fraction of the cost. And trust me, for some of my music tastes, they don't make a decent bit of gear.