Reel to Reel Prices - are people just greeding about now??

[Lodgesound]

As the thread title suggests discuss.

I personally believe that on the whole the majority of "sellers" who have these things and put them on ebay etc. have very little idea of what they have but nonetheless learn very quickly how to use terms like "full service" (you dusted it before listing it) and "full recap" (one or two in the power supply were replaced as far as you know maybe possibly) in their often rather scant and useless desciptions.

I am personally doubtful that there will be any open reel tape release revival as the music industry will never get itself into a high enough gear to even attempt it. You need to reissue classic back catalogue material as well as contemporary right from the get go to raise any kind of potential interest from end users and thus from machine manufacturers and duplication operations.

In terms of using the machines in the home for recording etc. again relatively few folk who end up purchasing a machine actually really use it or can use it to even part of it's full potential (if it is a studio recorder). Studio machines were not and simply are not really intended for use in the home - they can be of course but really you need the support of a full blown monitoring installation to take advantage of one in order to make correctly specified recordings each time you use it.

Domestic machines were a massive compromise in this direction and were ok as far as they went but came nowhere near to their professional counterparts with very good reason from a manufacturing standpoint.

I wonder if this rather silly price bubble is about to burst.

[struth]

Very much agree. If cd recorders and mini disc cant make it then tape wont either. It looks great, and can sound great but few have a machine that they can use properly, and in the home is there really much of a need?

[farflungstar]

I have an Akai but cannot get any sound out of it - looks pretty though.

[Ali Tait]

Have to say my Tandberg makes absolutely superb recordings to my ears. Obviously I'm just an amateur with these things, and I mostly record gigs and other stuff from Sky Arts, recordings of which can't be had any other way as they are not available on CD or download, but the SQ easily rivals and even betters what I can get from my vinyl setup.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

As the thread title suggests discuss.

I personally believe that on the whole the majority of "sellers" who have these things and put them on ebay etc. have very little idea of what they have but nonetheless learn very quickly how to use terms like "full service" (you dusted it before listing it) and "full recap" (one or two in the power supply were replaced as far as you know maybe possibly) in their often rather scant and useless desciptions.

I am personally doubtful that there will be any open reel tape release revival as the music industry will never get itself into a high enough gear to even attempt it. You need to reissue classic back catalogue material as well as contemporary right from the get go to raise any kind of potential interest from end users and thus from machine manufacturers and duplication operations.

In terms of using the machines in the home for recording etc. again relatively few folk who end up purchasing a machine actually really use it or can use it to even part of it's full potential (if it is a studio recorder). Studio machines were not and simply are not really intended for use in the home - they can be of course but really you need the support of a full blown monitoring installation to take advantage of one in order to make correctly specified recordings each time you use it.

Domestic machines were a massive compromise in this direction and were ok as far as they went but came nowhere near to their professional counterparts with very good reason from a manufacturing standpoint.

I wonder if this rather silly price bubble is about to burst.

The 7 1/2 ips and 15 ips machines, can be very close to as good as a studio machine, by using one in tandem
with a Type 1 DBX , note Type 1 not Type 2 that was made for cassette. the model numbers were
DBX 180A ( used by Vangelis ) or 155 ( used by Anthony Phillips - first Genesis guitarist for his album Geese
and the Ghost ) or the 150X, the 150 is to my ear inferior

The 155 and 150x can also be used real time to improve CD playback.

Cheers / Chris

[alphaGT]

Back in the day when these home reel to reel's were popular, it was the ultimate hi fidelity machine! But only if you could get your hands on some copies of the master tape, expensive copies sold in limited quantities, and they sounded pretty amazing for the times. But, while you can get a refurbished machine, those old tapes couldn't hardly be of any use. With tape bleed, and dry rot, magnetic losses, etc. those tapes couldn't play anymore. And I don't think you could buy any new ones? So what good is the machine? It would be like a shiny new 8-track tape player.




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[Ali Tait]

They are good for lots if you make your own recordings. There are still companies producing tape.

[Arkless Electronics]

If you are not making live recordings I can't see much point to them beyond an engineering curiosity or objet d' art.. and I've got several of 'em! I don't think I've switched one on for several years...

[jollyfix]

The whole point for me on recording was making compilation tapes.
The very few whole albums i recorded ,were LP's i borrowed off a friend, and for love or money could never track down. A load of fun to be had editing Album tracks.
A few friends would even go as far as double solo type of thing, they would record a guitar solo they liked twice, and kudos to the person who could do it with just the record/pause button, no splicing etc.. So the acoustic guitar solo on 'come up and see me, make me smile, would repeat, but you would think it was part of the song when done well.
I enjoy a good tape comp...

[topoxforddoc]

There is a limited supply of high end studio machines as most were chucked in skips 20 years ago. So with supply and demand economics, prices are just going up.

There are now over 500 legit titles available on 15 IPS 2 track 1/4 inch tape. The Tape Project will even do you a 30 IPS 1/2 inch copy if you are well heeled. Chad Kassam in the USA is now re-releasing a number of classic albums and is planning to continue this programme over time. In the USA and the Far East, there are plenty of people who will buy high quality tape at USD 300-450 a title. Before people choke at this cost just think how much some collectors will pay for a first pressing of a classic album in good nick - now that is truly crazy.

So maybe, people in the UK may not spark off a R2R revival, but I think it is burning slowly elsewhere and catching on. I, for one, am completely hooked. I haven't spun my Platine Verdier for 2 months now.Much more exciting things to do, like check my recently arrived copy of Doors-LA Woman and Dylan's Blonde on Blonde :)

Charlie

[alphaGT]

There is a limited supply of high end studio machines as most were chucked in skips 20 years ago. So with supply and demand economics, prices are just going up.

There are now over 500 legit titles available on 15 IPS 2 track 1/4 inch tape. The Tape Project will even do you a 30 IPS 1/2 inch copy if you are well heeled. Chad Kassam in the USA is now re-releasing a number of classic albums and is planning to continue this programme over time. In the USA and the Far East, there are plenty of people who will buy high quality tape at USD 300-450 a title. Before people choke at this cost just think how much some collectors will pay for a first pressing of a classic album in good nick - now that is truly crazy.

So maybe, people in the UK may not spark off a R2R revival, but I think it is burning slowly elsewhere and catching on. I, for one, am completely hooked. I haven't spun my Platine Verdier for 2 months now.Much more exciting things to do, like check my recently arrived copy of Doors-LA Woman and Dylan's Blonde on Blonde :)

Charlie

Well that is interesting, I had no idea anyone was producing reel to reel recordings. But I can't say I'm surprised, if there is a demand, someone will want to fill it. Especially at those prices!


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[Cas]

I recall seeing a reel to reel enthusiast that when asked what he puts onto tape his answer was CDs
because once put onto tape they sound better.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

I recall seeing a reel to reel enthusiast that when asked what he puts onto tape his answer was CDs
because once put onto tape they sound better.

Highly likely he is using DBX Type 1 to do so , or Dolby A
Companding at work,simply doing what it is designed to do, which is to improve
the ability to record, and the ability of playback.

Cheers / Chris

[PaulStewart]

Highly likely he is using DBX Type 1 to do so , or Dolby A
Companding at work,simply doing what it is designed to do, which is to improve
the ability to record, and the ability of playback.

Cheers / Chris
Why do you keep spouting this [ADMIN REMOVED], in this case you have no idea who the person is or what the record playback chain is. The only reason people ever tried DBx as a N/R system was it was cheaper than Dolby A or the technically superior Dolby SR. As for helping SQ on CD playback, this is just [ADMIN REMOVED].

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Because its true, applying to Type 1 DBX and Dolby A, and it works in the case of Type 1 to improve CD playback as well
If you give it a go, you will then appreciate what I am saying,

Stereo Separation and bass reproduction in particular, but a far more analog presentation to CD is its benefit,

Cheers / Chris

[Arkless Electronics]

Why do you keep spouting this in this case you have no idea who the person is or what the record playback chain is. The only reason people ever tried DBx as a N/R system was it was cheaper than Dolby A or the technically superior Dolby C. As for helping SQ on CD playback, .

I'm afraid Chris has a habit of spouting [ADMIN REMOVED]... I believe a random technical sounding word generator virus has infected his PC.

[struth]

Cut out the personal insults folks.

[Marco]

Yes, you can argue a point perfectly well, without resorting to the use of such confrontational language.

Marco.

[shane]

For those interested in The Tape Project:

http://tapeproject.com/

[337alant]

And a few more :D

ABC Records (Jazz/Classical/Other) http://www.abcrecord.com
Acoustic Sounds: www.acousticsounds.com
Analog Mastering Services (Jazz/Rock/Classical) http://www.analogmaster.net
*Analogy Records (Jazz/Rock/Classical/Other) www.analogyrecords.org
Brilliance Music and Studios (in US, Contact Gary Koh at Genesis Advanced Technologies)
*Dangerous Analog (Jazz/Classical) www.dangerousanalog.com
Fone (Classical) see Elusive Disc
Groove Note (Jazz/Classical/Other) see Elusive Disc
Hemioliarecords.com http://www.hemioliarecords.com/index.php
Horch House (Jazz/Classical) http://www.analogarts.net
International Phonograph (Jazz) http://www.internationalphonographinc.com
Lutz Precision/MPS-Music (Jazz/Rock/Classical/Other) www.mps-music.com
MA Recordings ((in US, Contact Gary Koh at Genesis Advanced Technologies)
Master Tape Sound (Jazz/Rock/Classical/Other) http://www.unitedhomeaudio.com
Open Reel Records (Jazz/Rock/Classical/Other) www.openreelrecords.com
**Opus 3 (Jazz/Rock/Classical/Other) see Elusive Disc (http://www.opus3records.com)
Quinton Records (Jazz /Classical) http://www.quintonrecords.com
STS-digitalshop (Jazz/Classical/Rock) http://www.sts-digitalshop.nl/
The Tape Project (Jazz/Rock/Classical/Other) http://www.tapeproject.com
Tone-Pearl Records (Classical) http://www.tonepearls.com
Yarlung Records (Jazz /Classical/Other) www.yarlungrecords.com
Ultraanalogue Records (Classical) http://ultraanaloguerecordings.com
Patricia Barber (special order) Jazz) http://www.premonitionrecords.com

[topoxforddoc]

Dolby SR knocks the spots off all the other NR systems - minus 25 dB off the tape noise floor!

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Dolby SR knocks the spots off all the other NR systems - minus 25 dB off the tape noise floor!

Glad you are enjoying Dolby SR, can you describe its benefit over No Noise Reduction being used ?
and have you by chance, tried any other types of NR systems ?

Cheers / Chris

[PaulStewart]

Why do you keep spouting this [ADMIN REMOVED], in this case you have no idea who the person is or what the record playback chain is. The only reason people ever tried DBx as a N/R system was it was cheaper than Dolby A or the technically superior Dolby SR. As for helping SQ on CD playback, this is just [ADMIN REMOVED].

Marco and other mods please note. My tolerance for people talking rubbish on forums has expired and my disgust at the safe space/snow flake, I don't want to be upset attitude of folk has now come to the fore. I'm out of here if you ever decide to stop people spouting rubbish, let me know. Please delete my profile from the server.

[Macca]

Marco and other mods please note. My tolerance for people talking rubbish on forums has expired and my disgust at the safe space/snow flake, I don't want to be upset attitude of folk has now come to the fore. I'm out of here if you ever decide to stop people spouting rubbish, let me know. Please delete my profile from the server.

If you think people are spouting rubbish then either ignore it or explain without resorting to insults why it is rubbish. We don't delete profiles here.

[PaulStewart]

If you think people are spouting rubbish then either ignore it or explain without resorting to insults why it is rubbish. We don't delete profiles here.

Martin I have explained at length of many occasions why Chris is spouting nonsense in his proselytisation of both dBx and LDRs, your failure to note this is indicative of the arrogance with which this forum is moderated. No one has a right not to be offended, least of all when spouting crap on the internet. One does however have a right to express oneself, certainly in the UK, EU and the USA anyway. Censorship is ugly, but I would remind the moderators that under EU law, as at the moment still adopted by the UK, on does have the "right to be forgotten" on the web. I can't be bothered with this any longer, see you round the clubs.

[Macca]

Paul, I have seen your previous explanations and for what it is worth I agree with them but it isn't really worth getting upset about. No-one is going to change the world either way via an internet forum. I hope you reconsider your decision.

[Marco]

Martin I have explained at length of many occasions why Chris is spouting nonsense in his proselytisation of both dBx and LDRs, your failure to note this is indicative of the arrogance with which this forum is moderated.


First of all, Paul, no-one here has sufficient guru-like status, on ANY subject, technical or otherwise, to be appointed as the conclusive arbiter of "nonsense". Secondly, in terms of the "arrogance" remark, I thought you and I got on well and understood each other, so I've no idea what's changed that situation for the worse.

You need to understand and accept that, on ANY forum, AoS included, ultimately you only get to say what the owner and moderators allow you to say, not what YOU think you're 'entitled' to. I'm afraid that's just how it is, and if you can't accept that fact, then forums aren't really for you.


No one has a right not to be offended, least of all when spouting crap on the internet.

I would refer you again to my comments about what here is conclusively deemed as "crap" and/or "nonsense". Also, consider how your 'offended' comment applies in relation to your remarks towards Chris, or indeed in the past when others here have been 'critical' of you - and have reported them for it.

In any case, if you're not happy here any more, I'm sorry to hear that, and so I wish you all the best for the future :)

Marco.

[Dynamics]

Martin I have explained at length of many occasions why Chris is spouting nonsense in his proselytisation of both dBx and LDRs, your failure to note this is indicative of the arrogance with which this forum is moderated. No one has a right not to be offended, least of all when spouting crap on the internet. One does however have a right to express oneself, certainly in the UK, EU and the USA anyway. Censorship is ugly, but I would remind the moderators that under EU law, as at the moment still adopted by the UK, on does have the "right to be forgotten" on the web. I can't be bothered with this any longer, see you round the clubs.

Forums are not about a kind of gratification that what you are saying is right or wrong, and that others should advocate it because you believe or know absolutely you are right. You may well be and I hope you are, but to be honest thats not the point of forums. They are just to share experience mainly. Most people will view what you have done as arrogance, rather than the other way around, whether it is arrogant or not. I think if you present your arguments persuasively then you get people agreeing, if you do what youve done, you do the total opposite. But when people present an argument that is ludicrous to most, it will come accross in the thread anyway. To me it's a bit like the cable debate. And if it doesn't and not a lot of people could be perceived by you to know much about the topic, just put it down to that. Rather than being perceived as an aggressor. But also not a lot of people know what you are talking about on this topic, as it's specialist, so maybe if you explained for the benefit of others it could take it along better and you'd get support.

People do have a right not to be offended especially when you admit you are causing offence by virtue of comments you say are crap. You've no idea what your offence does to someone, and no you don't have the right to offend someone on someone else's forum who sets the rules for how people engage with each other.

To be honest if this was my forum I'd maybe allow people to engage in a bit more robust debate, because my perception is that this sometimes can be limiting of proper understanding, and I like a debate and constructive argument, but it's easy to see when people say stuff like you have, that moderators and owners of forums take the attitude of not letting people even remotely be perceived by others to cause offence or enter into constructive argument, for fear (quite reasonably) it could escalate and lead to bad feeling. I would allow constructive argument because if someone makes a point and argument that is irrefutable then if made ok, it gives people the confidence to come in and agree or not further. But it doesn't allow people the ability to get upset if their argument is shot down. Many people on forums start getting upset and aggressive when an argument made is firmly shot down, and I always think that's the issue of the person to whom their reason and argument is taken apart, not the person just for presenting a reasoned argument. but I think in your case you've crossed the line by causing offence.

Cheers.

[Arkless Electronics]

Martin I have explained at length of many occasions why Chris is spouting nonsense in his proselytisation of both dBx and LDRs, your failure to note this is indicative of the arrogance with which this forum is moderated. No one has a right not to be offended, least of all when spouting crap on the internet. One does however have a right to express oneself, certainly in the UK, EU and the USA anyway. Censorship is ugly, but I would remind the moderators that under EU law, as at the moment still adopted by the UK, on does have the "right to be forgotten" on the web. I can't be bothered with this any longer, see you round the clubs.

I will add that I have also complained to moderators re inaccurate technical advice being regularly given by this same member. Sadly it would seem that regularly posting advice which is economical in its veracity is allowed... The problem being, IMHO, that as the person in question can sound technical enough, the only people who can see right through it are those who are self sufficient in accurate technical knowledge and have no need to ask for advice ....

[Macca]

Point being missed here. No-one objects to incorrect technical advice being corrected, it is the manner in which it is done. Personal, disparaging and insulting remarks are not desirable here, and, in any case, detract from the rebuttal as opposed to reinforcing it.

[Marco]

Hi Simon,

Good post! :)


Forums are not about a kind of gratification that what you are saying is right or wrong, and that others should advocate it because you believe or know absolutely you are right. You may well be and I hope you are, but to be honest thats not the point of forums. They are just to share experience mainly.


Absolutely spot on. That is *precisely* what they are for, or indeed should be. However, it's certainly how we view things on AoS.

That's why unless someone is stating their opinion or experience as FACT, no 'proof' or evidence of whatever is being reported is needed. If willingly offered, that's different, but no-one here will ever be badgered into giving it. Information provided, therefore, simply acts as VALID subjective experience or opinion, which others reading can treat as they wish (question, accept or dismiss).

That is conversely also why where any arguable 'grey area' exists, no matter how small, no-one here is automatically right or wrong, or gets to conclusively (or arrogantly) judge as 'nonsense' what is simply someone else's contrary experience or opinion. Posting on hi-fi forums isn't (or shouldn't be) like sitting an exam, or where 'scientific facts' are formed!

They exist as places for people to conduct informal chats, with other (hopefully) like-minded enthusiasts, on topics of mutual interest, in the hope that sharing collective experiences may be helpful to others. That also applies when technical matters are being discussed, and where two educated and experienced professionals disagree on something that, despite what one of them may think, isn't of a black or white nature.


But when people present an argument that is ludicrous to most, it will come across in the thread anyway.


Indeed, which is why on AoS we believe very much in allowing discussions to evolve 'organically', rather than conforming to some rigid notion of what is considered as 'correct'. Despite what some may think, hi-fi forums don't double as formal debating societies, therefore neither should discussions therein conform to their rules.


People do have a right not to be offended especially when you admit you are causing offence by virtue of comments you say are crap. You've no idea what your offence does to someone, and no you don't have the right to offend someone on someone else's forum who sets the rules for how people engage with each other.


Precisely. No-one here has a 'right' to *anything* other than being treated with due courtesy and civility, and we proactively moderate all discussions here with that in mind.


To be honest if this was my forum I'd maybe allow people to engage in a bit more robust debate....


Robust debate here is allowed, and indeed actively encouraged. The problem often is in applying that 'robustness' solely to the subject of the debate, not the debater..... In that respect, we have one simple rule: always play the BALL, not the man! :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Point being missed here. No-one objects to incorrect technical advice being corrected, it is the manner in which it is done. Personal, disparaging and insulting remarks are not desirable here, and, in any case, detract from the rebuttal as opposed to reinforcing it.

Precisely - and some folk here need to allow that to sink in, and indeed understand what qualifies as such! ;)

Here's something to consider: if you know someone is stating something that is patently untrue (or that you consider is almost certainly wrong), be patient with them and explain where they're mistaken, rather than simply ridiculing them, thereby in the process making you look arrogant and causing that person offence.

The fact is, ridicule neither informs nor educates - and most importantly, wins you no friends.

Marco.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Precisely - and some folk here need to allow that to sink in, and indeed understand what qualifies as such! ;)

Furthermore, here's something to consider: if you know that a person is stating something that is patently untrue (or that you consider is wrong), be patient with them and explain where they're mistaken, rather than simply ridiculing them, thereby in the process making you look arrogant and causing them offence.

The fact is, ridicule neither informs nor educates - and most importantly, it wins you no friends.

Marco.

The point that is being missed, is a person is only properly patiently able to explain "where theyr'e mistaken " if they have indeed heard each,
otherwise the forum might have to change name to "The Art of Words "

[Marco]

Sorry Chris, don't get what you mean :scratch:

Marco.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Hi Marco
If a person places words describing sound, but then makes the wrong choice not to listen to what they
are describing, then their chosen words become much less in meaning. Whereas a person who has heard and then
describes what they hear, then their words become meaningful.

Cheers / Chris

[Marco]

Ah ok, gotcha now, and yes I agree! :)

Marco.