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Filterlab
21-01-2008, 21:45
Like most audiophile chaps, I'm definitely up for a tweak which is preferably all of the following things:

1. Effective
2. Easy to install (i.e. doesn't require a degree in electronic engineering!)
3. Cheap. ;)

So as if by chance the perfect tweak offer dropped into my lap seemingly out of nowhere! After extensive listening and loving of my Revel M22s and having tried them on different surfaces and with different cables etc etc I was very VERY pleased with their performance, surely nothing could make them even better?

Well yes actually, and for a darn sight less than they cost to buy. In fact an amazing tweak was had for just 1.4% of the price of the speakers. YES! For £28 including taxes and shipping, my esteemed acquaintance Jim from diffractionbegone (http://www.diffractionbegone.com) created a pair of baffle covers to perfectly fit my speakers.

So the science is not really up my street, but what I can hear are the effects of a scientific principal working in my favour, and boy can I hear a difference with these things! Have a look and see how they fit, and I'll tell you how they effect (read as 'improve') the sound. :)

http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/random_stuff/DSC05911.jpg

http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/random_stuff/DSC05923.jpg

http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/random_stuff/DSC05914.jpg

Now you may balk a little at the looks, but in the flesh they look superb and if I'm honest the looks have really grown on me. However, it's not about the looks I hear you say. So the sound...

Well my friends, the difference these things have made is nothing short of staggering. I was expecting it to effect the treble, but in actual fact it's quite the opposite.

The first thing that really struck me was the midrange clarity - think 'crack of the snare', 'clap of the hand' and 'strum of the guitar' and you're on exactly the right lines. The focus in this audible region has to heard to be believed, but that's not all - oh no! The other amazing element is in the bass lines, particularly bass guitar, which takes on a start/stop nature that is as tight as the deft handwork as any talented guitarist. Again I'm going to use the superlative 'focus', clarity in this region is so improved, amazingly in fact.

So is that it? Nope, there's two other areas which are even more impressive, namely imaging and vocals. Imaging on my Revels was always a little bit of a sticking point after owning some Martin Logan electrostats, but these baffle covers have augmented the imaging to near-electrostat levels, and that's saying something. I guess this is why vocals sound sooo good, they just stand so clear from the mix with such audibility and yet never become overblown.

When I discussed my findings with Jim he was glad that I 'got it' and clearly the aim of his product is exactly as I found.

If you have thirty quid that you fancy putting towards a positive tweak in your system, you'll NEVER go wrong with these.

jimdgoulding
22-01-2008, 21:00
Rob- You know I’m glad you appreciate it. The science taking place is that your surrounds are neutralizing waveforms above your crossover from interacting with your speaker baffles. That belated interaction is responsible for a second wave of the same information to your listening position and nearby walls. The removal of this allows your system to more faithfully reconstruct instruments and space as captured by the microphone in your room. Even off axis there is a benefit in the frequency domain. A truer signal translates to truer information and the result is that instruments and vocals and the space that surrounds and separates is simply truer, as true as your system is capable of delivering. Nice surprise, huh.

Robson
29-01-2008, 20:28
Well said Jim......diffraction and the baffle have always been a difficult subject and why I cover my cabinets in leather and soften the edges which I believe yields benefits over highly lacquered cabinets. The new Wilson Duette has tried to tackle this problem with a section on the tweeter......people will do any-thing to justify a £10k+ price.

jimdgoulding
01-02-2008, 05:36
With your permission, I thought I would add just one customer review sent to me personally to go along with Filterlab's review above. This is from a man who primarily listens to classical music using some 3 way custom built towers:

"Hello Jim:

Here are my comments.

With the felt tweeter surrounds, there is less smearing of the sound; in orchestral music, individual instruments can be heard distinctly rather than blending into an amalgam of sound. There is definitely more depth to the sound stage and more hall ambience as well. Rather than a sound stage laterally restricted about each speaker and the virtual center, the felt tweeter surrounds produce a soundstage width that is more uniform and panoramic. My preferred room curve using a 1/3 octave RTA/equalizer previously required a roll off of 1.5 db per octave between 4KHz and 10KHz to avoid a brittle treble. With the felt tweeter surrounds in place, I find the room and my ears tolerate a flat response in that frequency region. This relative frequency boost may also contribute further to the perceived improvement in the size and depth of the soundstage. The applause, however, are my own. Thank you." Irv Bloom- Oceanside, CA

I would just add that his realization of "a brittle treble" in his room before trying this was not due to his driver or electronics. It was due to what was taken away.

It would be my pleasure to share your review, too, if you're not too bashful, that is, those of you for whom this mod will benefit similarly.

All the best.

Jim

jimdgoulding
20-02-2008, 22:08
Think I’ll add another one. A boy has gotta do something to keep this in front of you. This is from a fellow down under using Osborn Eclipses, an aussie speaker previously unknown to me. You boys don’t forget that everything upstream of your drivers and speaker baffles is ultimately delivered to you by sound waveforms. Best you look after them. They contain information worth preserving. Know what I mean? If you're not sure, I'll answer questions for you and give you references. For starters, visit my website. Cheers

“Jim after several hours of critical listening I have reached a couple of conclusions. First ,everything sounds better and clearer. Secondly there is no down side to this improvement. What I had been hearing as "texture" in instruments and vocals was apparently distortion plain and simple. A friend likened the phenomenon to cleaning a windscreen that you didn't realise was dirty anyway. Not the most original of metaphors but apt enough. And yes the soundstaging is huge. I won't be sending these back but rather may be ordering some more. You see I have some other speakers. Thank you for your ingenuity.” C Cheycox, NSW

The quotation marks are his, not mine, and I think what he means by texture is what we yanks refer to as grain. I can assure you that his texture and tone are improved not to mention how instruments and vocals appear in space (blimey, if I didn't mention it anyway).

jandl100
20-03-2008, 23:46
Russ Andrews markets felt rings to go around tweeters - same principle in part as has been mentioned here, I guess - cost a tenner or so, IIRC. The concept seemed interesting so I bought a pair to have a go. Truly, absolutely awful! "Where'd the treble go?" was my basic reaction.

I've had so many speakers I can't recall which ones I had at the time ... Kharmas, maybe .... but the carefully engineered frequency balance of the speaker went straight out of the window. Dull Dull Dull. I sold the pesky things on eBay though :)

Marco
21-03-2008, 00:00
I don't doubt your observations, Jerry, but that's not necessarily representative of what Jim's product will offer. Indeed if Rob's account of them (he's purchased some) is anything to go by then I doubt the results obtained are anything like the same :)

I may look at trying some with the Spendors when I'm finished with my valve power amp shenanigans. Right now, however, I don't want to introduce any further variables into the equation.

Marco.

jandl100
21-03-2008, 00:18
Hmmm ... you have to try these things, I know. But applying a frequency-dependent sound absorber to an already well-engineered product just doesn't seem sensible - surely it can only make it worse by changing the frequency response, or the speaker wasn't well-engineered in the first place! Sorry if I'm seeming a bit negative here, but the idea seems flawed to me.

This observation only applies to the felt pad around the tweeter, I've no idea what the box-surround 'shroud' thing would do - but I do recall a short article in a hifi mag a few years back (by Paul Messenger ... ?) about a similar (or perhaps the same) product and he was full of praise for the improvements he heard, but doubted that most folks would want to change the appearance of their speakers so much.

NRG
21-03-2008, 10:03
Russ Andrews markets felt rings to go around tweeters - same principle in part as has been mentioned here, I guess - cost a tenner or so, IIRC. The concept seemed interesting so I bought a pair to have a go. Truly, absolutely awful! "Where'd the treble go?" was my basic reaction.

I've had so many speakers I can't recall which ones I had at the time ... Kharmas, maybe .... but the carefully engineered frequency balance of the speaker went straight out of the window. Dull Dull Dull. I sold the pesky things on eBay though :)

Exactly the same findings as me, post #6 here:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=322

jandl100
21-03-2008, 10:40
Yup, I hadn't seen that post NRG. We've obviously had similar experience with those RA felt rings.

Clearly, though, Rob likes what the (non-RA) pad thingy does. I'd be interested in knowing if there's a synergy between the pad and the shroud - did you try them independently, Rob, or just as a combo? Did you find they affected the tonal response?

I hate to be cynical ;), but have you tried taking them off again to see what happens?

jimdgoulding
21-03-2008, 19:24
Jerry- Your point is well made and well taken. I don't know if there is a universal way of tuning the output of a speaker. Could be measured at one meter or three meters and it may not be the same for all designs, dunno. Some of the comments I receive do report a change in high frequency response. Response is not the right word, actually. High frequency response perception is more accurate. Less noise, more information about sums it up. And it's what that does that has earned respect for my not so little product. Many of their reports are online at the places I've talked about. Sources can be seen on the Blank Canvas thread.

In my avatar at the moment is a frequency measurement made by a speaker designer in the US named Danny Richie. I'm the blue line. He picked the speakers, not me. I also have one from a tweaker down under using DEQX on Dynaudio Special 25's. Same story. And one appears in an online review magazine named Stereomojo. Same thing, again. As you can see, there is no curtailment to the high end frequency measurement. There is, however, a smoothing of peaks and valleys around the crossover and a bit beyond. Might this be relevant?

I'm thinking that maybe Mr. Andrew's product may encroach too closely to the tweeter itself. I use a high grade of compressed wool myself for the quality of absorbency it yields. Some felt products are filled with synthetic fiber which would cut down the absorbency. That could be relevant. And, I sell with a guarantee so people are able to audition at home.

Cheers

jandl100
21-03-2008, 23:12
Thanks for the response, jdg. The RA felt ring was certainly a disaster for me (fortunately a cheap one!), but I am intrigued by your claims and Rob's good words about your goods. Below is a photo if my current speaker - ProAc Future point 5 - clearly not suitable for your 'shrouds' but do you think the ribbon tweeter and/or midrange unit might benefit from your 'wool surround' tweak? If so, I would be mighty interested .... ;)

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/ProacFuture3.jpg

jimdgoulding
21-03-2008, 23:55
Jumpin Jerry- Yes, I think so. But that is a big think. Ribbons radiate horizonally rather than concentrically and I should want to come closer to it than my standard pad could be made to. Here's what I'm thinking. I have some remnants from a custom job I did for a customer using a wool saddle pad. I could make pads for your ribbon with slits wider and taller than the ribbons and pads to surround your mid drivers. You could try one or both. If you wanted me to do this I would just need to know the measurements of these drivers. I'll only charge you for my time and shipping cause the saddle pad was paid for by that customer. I will guarantee your purchase cause it interests me and I'm a sucker for a challenge. I would charge $45.00US to include shipping. If you would like to give it a whirl, just let me know. jim

What are those little beauties behind your Pro Ac's?

jandl100
22-03-2008, 07:25
OK, Texas Man ... let's do it. :) I'm a sucker for a challenge, too. I'll send you a PM to discuss those nitty gritty little personal details in a minute.

The slot for the ribbon is 2-1/4 x 3/4 inch (including depression for slight horn loading). The mid-range driver starts a further 2 inches southwards, and its baffle is 4-1/4 inches across. The speaker baffle width (under the grilles, which I would want to be able to use) is 6-1/2 inches and just under 1/2 inch deep. Is that enough info?

What's the method(s) for attaching said woolly widget to the speaker? (would need to be non-permanent, of course!)

Thnx Jim, in anticipation, Jerry :)

EDIT: an extra thought ... the tweeter and mid are open-baffle to the rear ..... :scratch:

___

The little cuties behind my new ProAc are an Elac Jet 300i ribbon hybrid (in white, now sold) and a Jim Rogers JR149 (a rather nice LS3/5a clone, an alumin(i)um cylinder! -which is currently up for sale).

Every now and then I try some small speakers ... but I should learn, they never really work out for me - I like my speakers with a bit more meat to them!

jimdgoulding
22-03-2008, 13:16
The slot for the ribbon is 2-1/4 x 3/4 inch (including depression for slight horn loading). The mid-range driver starts a further 2 inches southwards, and its baffle is 4-1/4 inches across. The speaker baffle width (under the grilles, which I would want to be able to use) is 6-1/2 inches and just under 1/2 inch deep. Is that enough info?

What's the method(s) for attaching said woolly widget to the speaker? (would need to be non-permanent, of course!)

[/QUOTE]
JJ- You state that the mid-range driver's "baffle" is 4.25" across (thanks for the convertion), do you mean the driver's mounting basket? If not, how wide is it? You state that the speaker baffle (under the grille) is 6.50" wide. That's all the way across, right? They will attach with postage stamp size removable Velcro tabs (mounting instructions included) that won't leave residue on your finish and, yes, you will be able to return your grilles. Please reconfirm. Thank you.

I remember those little beauties. You must be old as me. To pay me the sterling, go to my website www.diffractionbegone.com and on he second page you will see an order form. Kindly complete and submit using the submit button so we will both have a record. Then, arrow back to that page and click on the "quotes/pics" page tab. There you will see a BuyNow button to pay by PayPal or CC.

jandl100
22-03-2008, 23:08
The slot for the ribbon is 2-1/4 x 3/4 inch (including depression for slight horn loading). The mid-range driver starts a further 2 inches southwards, and its baffle is 4-1/4 inches across. The speaker baffle width (under the grilles, which I would want to be able to use) is 6-1/2 inches and just under 1/2 inch deep. Is that enough info?

What's the method(s) for attaching said woolly widget to the speaker? (would need to be non-permanent, of course!)


JJ- You state that the mid-range driver's "baffle" is 4.25" across (thanks for the convertion), do you mean the driver's mounting basket? If not, how wide is it? You state that the speaker baffle (under the grille) is 6.50" wide. That's all the way across, right? They will attach with postage stamp size removable Velcro tabs (mounting instructions included) that won't leave residue on your finish and, yes, you will be able to return your grilles. Please reconfirm. Thank you.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, the driver mounting basket (i.e. the entire black area attached to the wood veneered baffle) is 4.5" across.

The space within the grille's frame, in which the "woolly widget" can be placed, is 6.5" wide.

That clear now? :)

OK - I will now attempt to navigate your website!

Jerry

WikiBoy
22-03-2008, 23:11
Pah! sell them on ebay, it is so much easier.

jimdgoulding
23-03-2008, 00:10
Not exactly. I'm having a daft day. The diameter of your midrange cone's mounting basket , is it 4.25" or 4.50"? Six and a half inches is the width the pad should be, I got that.

jandl100
23-03-2008, 07:32
Not exactly. I'm having a daft day. The diameter of your midrange cone's mounting basket , is it 4.25" or 4.50"?

More careful measurement shows 4.3 inches across the horizontal & vertical dimensions and 4.8 inches across the diagonal. Does that help?

jimdgoulding
23-03-2008, 14:35
Yes, brother, I'm good to go. Your ship will be arriving soon.

jimdgoulding
26-03-2008, 04:35
jandl100- Thought I would give you the information I think you need right here in front of God and all these POTENTIAL BUYERS here in the forum. It’s how I market. Never said I was the quiet type.

The large pads for your mid drivers should fit admirably and in keeping with your requirement to be able to return your grilles. The small pads for your vertical ribbons are more interesting. I’m hopeful that you have as much room between your mid driver and your tweet as it appears in the pictures. I want both drivers to be able to be precisely centered in the cutouts. In case I overshot it, you can trim a little of the bottom of the surrounds for your tweets. This wool, unlike what I normally use, is pretty manageable with a good pair of scissors. Not really knowing how wide to make the cutout for your ribbons, I included a couple of bars that can be tucked inside of the vertical walls without adhesion to narrow the width of the slot for you to play with. I’m thinking they may be desirable but you can be the judge.

I enjoyed making these for you. I hope they help make your system communicate music more directly.

Jim

jandl100
26-03-2008, 07:56
:) .... have you shipped them yet?

Filterlab
26-03-2008, 09:28
I see you've ordered a set Jerry - you'll not be disappointed mate. ;)

Marco
26-03-2008, 10:18
I'm sure he won't be, and let's see some nice pics and a full write-up of the product (in the Strokes of Genius section) when it arrives :)

Marco.

jandl100
27-03-2008, 07:41
I see you've ordered a set Jerry - you'll not be disappointed mate. ;)

yes, it'll be interesting to see what the pads do ..... I must confess I'm having some trouble integrating my new ProAcs into my room. Imaging is a bit big and blowsy for my tastes.

I don't think it's the speakers themselves, just the way I prefer to have speakers set up - for various reasons I fire them across the width of the room, not down its length and the open baffle nature of the ProAc's mid and top is causing problems with being too near the rear wall, I think.

I'm not sure that Jim's pads will help much with that. :scratch:

Open baffle designs are I think much happier firing along the length of a room, as the side-ways sound cancels out and you get a distinctive figure-8 radiation pattern. So they are good near side walls but not rear walls :doh:

I might try turning everything around by 90 degrees, but tbh I don't really want to do that!

Filterlab
27-03-2008, 12:46
...I'm not sure that Jim's pads will help much with that. :scratch:...

They work mainly in the mid and lower mid/upper bass area and really help to focus vocals and low mid transients (like snares etc). However I did notice a marked improvement in imaging although it was more than likely to do with the act of decongesting the mid/low mid/upper bass rather than outright problem solving.

Still, you'll be impressed and they may just do the trick. Certainly I will never go back. ;)

And no, Jim doesn't pay me to say nice things about his product - it's simply an outstanding product. :)

jandl100
27-03-2008, 14:01
They work mainly in the mid and lower mid/upper bass area and really help to focus vocals and low mid transients

Hmmm ... OK ... a bit of focussing in the mids might just do the trick!

Come on, Mr Trans-Atlantic Postman, get your finger out!! :)

jimdgoulding
28-03-2008, 02:38
Jerry- I wouldn't hesitate to move your speakers were it me.

jandl100
28-03-2008, 08:22
OK - speakers now rotated thru 90 degrees - see photo below (Cripes, what a mess! :o - I've tidied it up a bit since taking the photo ;)) and yes, it works! Imaging is good now, along with all the rest of the great things these speakers do. But what the hell do I do with the plasma screen now? :scratch:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Proacp5roomrotate.jpg

jimdgoulding
28-03-2008, 19:58
That's sorta how I have my own speakers set up minus the clutter. I have an open legged not bulky sofa table behind my speakers on which sits my digital front end and linestage. I bring my TT in when I listen to records and then take it out when I'm not. The more open the room to soundwave propagation, particularly the front end of the room, the better for the development of imaging and space in my experience. I can appreciate your concern for your widescreen TV and equipment rack on the side wall. Best of luck.

jimdgoulding
03-04-2008, 22:44
Boy . . that must have been a slow boat. You guys still ain't got your surrounds yet?

Alan
12-04-2008, 13:03
Boy . . that must have been a slow boat. You guys still ain't got your surrounds yet?

My boat just came in!:)
I will share impressions in due time.

Marco
12-04-2008, 16:39
Nice one. What about Jerry? He must have had his too by now... :scratch:

Marco.

jandl100
14-04-2008, 17:05
Hi there :)

Yup, my Woolly Widgets or WWs (as I call JimG's fine little accessories ;)) have arrived.

By popular request, i.e. at JimG's and Marco's suggestion) here is my PM to Jim with my 1st impressions, slightly edited for intelligibility .....

But first, I should acknowledge that the main use I have put them to is on a speaker they were not specifically tailored for, as you will read in the following text.

______

Hi Jim

OK - I hear what these are doing, I think.

They certainly do not dull the sound like those appalling Russ Andrews accessories that have been mentioned. I would agree with you that the tonal balance stays pretty much the same (much to my surprise).

I have tried them on 2 sets of speakers - my open baffle ProAcs and a pair of John Bowers Active One speakers - large stand-mounts, with 300W per speaker of active (onboard) power.

First the ProAcs - I have grown to dislike these speakers as set up in my room - they are now up for sale on eBay. Diffuse soundstage and imaging that the WWs failed to do much with - the backwave simply dominates that aspect of their sound. Forget the ProAcs!

Secondly the John Bowers Active One speakers. One tweeter and two 6 inch mid/bass units. Ah - much better! I used the WWs that you sent to go around the small ribbon tweeters on the ProAcs, placed around the tweeter. Much, much more interesting.

Here's a pic of the speaker ..... with a CD placed for scale .... bloody big things, they weigh 30Kg each (that's 66lb in 'real money' ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF3814.jpg

In essence, it seems to me, the WWs seem to remove a bit of the 'reverberant field' making images much more precise and well focussed. Good stuff. But ... in so doing they also seem to remove some/most of the recorded ambience of the recording making for a somewhat sterile presentation. You might respond - "But the WWs are just showing what is on the recording, any extra 'ambience' is an artifact added by the speaker cabinet" - Hmmm, maybe so, I might reply, but it does rather seem to be like listening in an anechoic chamber.

I plan further listening - and perhaps (well, almost certainly!) fooling around with a halfway house; if I chop up the no-longer-needed midrange WWs that you sent to fit around the ProAc's small midrange cone and place them around the speaker front baffle in various configurations I may well end up with a good compromise between improved focus and enjoyable (although perhaps spurious) ambience.

Sadly, that will have to wait a while - my head cold has returned and my hearing is currently severely curtailed - I now have an appointment booked with my doctor for an ear-syringing on Wednesday!

Jerry

jimdgoulding
14-04-2008, 20:45
All- Here is a copy of my reply to the Jerrster (PM):

Jerry- Good of you to reply. Thanks. And I’m delighted to know they exceeded your expectations based on your past experience. Don’t know what to make about your loss of ambience as this is not my experience. There IS less energy hitting your side walls above your crossover in studies I’ve seen (one on a set of Dynaudio two ways) along with an evening out of peaks and valleys around and upwards of the crossover and that might be missing. And, yeah, you’re right . . I’m gonna say you’re getting more of the truth :mental: as best as your and my systems are capable of resolving. I’m sticking one of those frequency domain studies in my avatar today for you to see. By all means, customize those babies to your hearts content. The density and thickness of the wool is a bitch to cut neatly, however, with any hand tools I’ve tried. I use a guillotine paper cutter that will cut a half ream of paper at a time. Most paper cutters won’t accept the thickness and/or don’t have a sufficient guide to keep the cut straight. There may be a print shop in your area that does. Oh, I almost forgot . . the material you have is easier to manage. If your Velcro tabs lose their adhesiveness, I’ll send some more. Just let me know if you need anything at all. Happy trails and I will appreciate your follow up. Thanks, Jim

Second thoughts- Jerry, direct me to some pictures of your speakers. I want to send you what Rob has and what I normally provide. I insist.

To which I would add I listened to two opera recordings over the weekend. Loads of ambience and hall sound on these. Had my doctor irrigate my ears in November. He also used a tool to remove hardened wax. Can't recommend that you do this, however, as I learned subsequently that this is risky.

jimdgoulding
16-04-2008, 22:33
Jerry- Boat left today. I invite others to try this. It's a tiny investment for what you will be getting on the recieving end of listening to music. See if after awhile you aren't more relaxed listening and making fewer trips to your player to change the music. Oh, there are extroverted changes alright, but how you feel listening, your sense of it, is where the proof is most in the pudding. Your speakers may look too beautiful too hang some wool on them, or their technology and esteem too precious in your opinion, but those notions will change after a short while. I offer with a 30 day in home audition, at least for the time being. :crowd: There are no losers.

Alan
19-04-2008, 17:45
Jim, hope you are well. 1st impressions are certainly good, and quite suprising. Its definately the mid and upper bass which has benefited most, its so 'soft' if you like, though I certainly dont mean that it lacks impact. It is so much easier to discern detailed nuances that were somehow a little buried in the mix before. Yet it is not tiring to listen to at all, which is good as I am not a detail freak; I want the emotion in the music, which has not suffered at all with these additions.
This must sound a little vague as a description, its just that its hard to work out what these actually do until you take them off and everything sounds a little harsher, with missing detail. Oh you know the detail is there, because you just heard it, but with these pads back on its all there, and not the least bit harsh or fatiguing.
The imaging is somehow improved too, and not just a little. I look forward to getting to know the sound a bit better maybe next week with some on-off comparisons, perhaps on van morrisons new album.
A tentative thumbs up, though I won't be sending them back. I've already persuaded a friend to have a pair too.
Many thanks, Alan

Alan
19-04-2008, 17:48
[QUOTE=jimdgoulding;6562]Jerry- Boat left today. I invite others to try this. It's a tiny investment for what you will be getting on the recieving end of listening to music.

It is a tiny investment - dont forget the exchange rate.:eyebrows:

jandl100
20-04-2008, 09:55
Second Impressions of JimG's Woolly Widgets (WW)

The WWs that Jim has made specially for my Bowers Active speakers have not yet arrived, but as promised I have been fooling around with the stuff he sent to go on my old ProAcs (now sold :)) ......

I still don't like the 'full surround' approach (where the tweeter is fully surrounded by the absorbent material) feeling that it reduces the ambience of recordings too much - but I am most pleased with a half-way house where strips are placed either side of the tweeter .....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF3819.jpg

Zounds!! No loss of "air" but hugely improved focus and more easily perceived detail. I can hear right in to the ambient acoustic of the recording with these. Very nice indeedy. Yup, something of JimG's work will definitely be staying in my system. I can't hear any downsides to this.

Yes, the strips are attached with Blue Tac ;) - Jim supplies stick-on velcro patches, but that's more for when final positioning is determined - fixing them with Blue Tac works well and is easier for experimenting!

There's more adhoc playing to do with the bits and bobs of Woolly Widgets that I currently have, and of course the bespoke items for my new speakers should be arriving soon, as well! :)

Nice one, Jim - there's definitely strong merit in your approach imo - and as has been said, at the price (and £/$ rate !) it's a bit of a no-brainer for the tweaker. Very easy to use as well.

Alan
23-04-2008, 14:25
Well, I've enjoyed getting to know these wooly wonders a lot.:) I think my earlier observations are more or less right, but on-off comparisons have been interesting.
I feel the effect of these additions as opposed to playing the same music with them off is more profound than even speaker placement, though I'm sure everyones experience will be unique and peculiarly their own. I am using small standmounts as you can see, in a room with heavily compromised acoustics and setup possibilities; my bass drivers are also odd, I dont really know much about this design (any info will be greeted with interest)*.
I mentioned earlier in a discussion about different passive pre amps that I like listening mostly at lower volumes, and only ever really up to medium. I had found the bass (although clean and defined) to be weaker at low volume: It is now in proportion, strong when required, soft when appropriate. This, coupled with the quite delicious mid range produced by Richards finest makes for an utterly involving, even captivating experience which defies me to not pay attention or to even try walking past when it is singing.
Ive just been on - offing to Ray Lamontagne's 'empty' from his 'Until the Sun Turns Black' album, and the contrasts were greater than I imagined they were, even being quite stark. Notably the cello timbre was warmer with the 'wonders' on, I enjoyed hearing the wood resonate, the air inside really moving about which was sucked into the mic in all its glory. With the 'wonders' off, it was harder, two dimensional and distant again, although I previously had no issue with it. It also became harder to distinguish between the 'attack' of strummed acoustic guitar strings and more delicate drumming work (he may have used nylon tipped sticks which would have contributed to this). When they went back on, everything seperated out again in terms of definition and timbre: Guitars were warm, even lush, drumming intricate, loose (his style really, but it was almost lost in the mix before) and Ray's vocals warm, powerful, and about six feet in front of me. I have also noticed the gorgeous singing tone of a decent ride cymbal that is well mic'd (yes I was a drummer, once).:scratch:
Things have become so real, life like. The emotions the artist tries to convey are so much more readily apparent because of the detail now here.
Detail - that is not to refer to digital detail or harshness of any sort. These make music so easy to listen to, involving not because each detail is in stark seperation/relief but because it isnt. Yet you can still follow the detail if you want, but what is being accomplished here allows each detail of each musicians playing to contribute to the layers, the whole. Well done Jim.
Perhaps his new slogan should be: Try it. What's the worst that could happen? Oh wait , that one is already taken, but nontheless I urge everyone to have a go. They work out about £28 now through paypal - chicken feed! :lol:You wouldn't think twice if they were interconnects or isolation pads now, would you?;)
You may be more suprised than I was. Thanks Jim, have this::cool:

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii165/brownalan/100_2085.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii165/brownalan/100_2084.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii165/brownalan/100_2086.jpg

Ali Tait
23-04-2008, 17:32
Jim,do you make any for 5ft. electrostatics? :)

jimdgoulding
23-04-2008, 20:11
Well, I could, but quite obviously, Ali my man, you won't be needing them.

Alan, you are a highly perceptive young man. Thank you and enjoy. I know you will.

jandl100
04-05-2008, 09:35
Review the 3rd .....

I've been playing some more with JimG's anti-diffraction baffles. My latest hodgepodge of available parts has the tweeters on my Bowers Active Ones surrounded by the rectangular baffle originally intended to fit around a ribbon tweeter, and a selection of offcuts butchered from baffles intended for a small midrange unit to go around the mid cones (sadly too small for the 6 inch mids on my Actives).

Effective as the tweeter baffle is, I suspect the biggest improvement is from surrounding the midrange cones with anti-diffraction baffle segments.

See pic below for current arrangement.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/BowersActiveswithWWs.jpg

Hmmmm ..... I'm really not sure I can live without these baffles now. Remove them and the sound seems diffuse, smeared and badly focussed. Damn, but these things work well!

_____

Jim also sent me a set of baffles specifically tailored for the Actives' tweeters, but *shock*horror* they are light-ish grey, rather than the rather fetching black of my original baffles (purchased for my abortive attempt at owning ProAc Future Point Five speakers). Just a no-go aesthetically, for me - I listen with the speaker grilles off and the light grey slabs on the black speaker baffles is just too eye-catching and off-putting. They do sound marginally better than the 'ribbon baffles' though.
Shall I send 'em back to you , Jim?

Filterlab
04-05-2008, 10:41
Hmmmm ..... I'm really not sure I can live without these baffles now. Remove them and the sound seems diffuse, smeared and badly focussed. Damn, but these things work well!

I tell you mate, these things are a MUST for everyone using cone driver speakers!

jimdgoulding
04-05-2008, 13:01
Jerry- Good news. Better listening through simple science. You are in good company. Dunlavy, Vandersteen, Wilson, Escalante, Green Mountian Audio (fantastic two ways), and going back as far as the Rogers BBC Monitors which I once owned are progenitors of the use of compressed wool felt on the surface adjacent to tweeters. The leading edge and upper end of our midrange is produced by our tweeters and this is how instruments are rendered in sound and image. Minus early refection off our baffles, all will do a better job of this. Space becomes more intelligible, too. My contribution is to make this available as a high quality after market product custom fitted to practically any conventional speaker.

You can help promote my product and theory over at WigWam if you will. All you guys using my product can if you visit that site. I happen to know that Jerry does. You may give your "too grey" surrounds to a friend. Preferably one who contributes to that forum if you have one.

I'm always happy to hear positive feedback. I've had a lot but never tire of it.

Thanks, mate.

Marco
04-05-2008, 14:34
I'm glad that Jerry's tried them and 'seen the light', so to speak. I knew Jim's product would work because Rob waxed lyrical about its benefits and he's not often wrong :)

Marco.

jandl100
04-05-2008, 14:46
OK. I've just put a review thread on the Wam. I only do this for products I really believe in - so you should feel honoured indeed, Jim!

Apart from anything else, I expect quite a lot of flak will be coming my way! Prepare to repel boarders!! - lots of doubting-Thomases who fancy themselves as technical gurus are on the WigWam! ;) Lots of talented/knowledgable folk, too, mind.

jimdgoulding
04-05-2008, 15:09
I do feel honored and I thank you. I will register there today. No worries about flak. It's an opportunity to turn water into wine. I think I'm up to it. We'll see, shalt we.

jandl100
04-05-2008, 15:14
Careful Jim - you may need to register as a dealer - and that's a £50 a year tarrif. You risk getting banned otherwise. Drop James (Wigwam admin/owner) a PM/email - james@hifiwigwam.com to make sure all is well.

shane
04-05-2008, 16:10
Prepare to repel boarders!!


How do you repel Boarders?











Stop changing the bed linen!

(Old Goon Show joke...)

jimdgoulding
06-05-2008, 00:39
With a sabre and ball and powder, how else? Or, wit, as the case may be.

jimdgoulding
06-05-2008, 02:38
whoops! gone to PM.

Filterlab
06-05-2008, 11:39
...lots of doubting-Thomases who fancy themselves as technical gurus are on the WigWam! ;)

Lot of morons there who will argue against something without ever having experienced it too.

But as you say, there are a LOT of knowledgeable folk who really have deep technical ability and know-how. :)

jimdgoulding
09-05-2008, 01:18
Want to let you guys know that Jerry introduced me over at wigwam. And his predictions were correct. The first thing he had to do was explain the picture of his speakers cause it drew a round of laughs. By the end of the day, however, a couple of guys tossed some accolades his way for the thread. And he hung tough, to his credit. I managed to get some of my posts deleted or hacked to oblivion- Jerry warned me- but had some fun, nevertheless. Thanks, Jerry, for your grit and determination :bag:.

Filterlab
09-05-2008, 07:54
I see they're still into editing other's posts then. :doh:

jimdgoulding
21-05-2008, 05:23
I don't have anything to add. It justs seems like this topic ain't gettin much love. I suppose I could mention that some bloke named Jim Goulding got a Golden Ear Award from The Absolute Sound magazine in the most recent issue. The lease expensive product to ever to receive the award. I happened to read it. Oh, well.

jandl100
21-05-2008, 06:52
some bloke named Jim Goulding got a Golden Ear Award from The Absolute Sound magazine in the most recent issue. The least expensive product to ever to receive the award.

Excellent - well done, Jim.

Are US audiophiles more adventurous and open-minded than us dour Brits? (I blame the rain.)

The US orders should be streaming in ... I'm surprised you have time to post here now. ;)

Filterlab
21-05-2008, 07:56
I don't have anything to add. It justs seems like this topic ain't gettin much love. I suppose I could mention that some bloke named Jim Goulding got a Golden Ear Award from The Absolute Sound magazine in the most recent issue. The lease expensive product to ever to receive the award. I happened to read it. Oh, well.

Fantastic stuff Jim, very well done. And if I may say so, thoroughly deserved. :)

Marco
21-05-2008, 08:58
Want to let you guys know that Jerry introduced me over at wigwam. And his predictions were correct. The first thing he had to do was explain the picture of his speakers cause it drew a round of laughs. By the end of the day, however, a couple of guys tossed some accolades his way for the thread. And he hung tough, to his credit. I managed to get some of my posts deleted or hacked to oblivion- Jerry warned me- but had some fun, nevertheless. Thanks, Jerry, for your grit and determination :bag:.

Jeez, no offence to Wigwam, but what a bloody carry on!

Why can't other forums be as open-minded and restriction-free in terms of advertising as ours? :confused:

Hey guys, maybe we need to get more strict on our trade member's asses (excuse my borrowing of parlance from Jim's homeland), heh heh... :eyebrows:

;)

On second thoughts, NO! :)

Marco.

jimdgoulding
21-05-2008, 17:24
It would seem so, Jerry. Australia, too. Thanks, all. The doctor is always in and inquiries are welcome.

Filterlab
21-05-2008, 20:21
I should add that earlier this week I removed the velcro pads from my baffles and the baffle covers and replaced them with ultra thin double sided adhesive pads across the entire area. They now fit really cleanly to the baffles and look a lot smarter and squarer.

I decided that they are a permanent fixture on my speakers and I wanted them to look more a part of the speakers themselves.

:)

jimdgoulding
19-01-2009, 09:03
A polite bump if you will indulge one. How's it hangin, fellas?

Got this from a Brit living in Texas recently:

"Hi Jim,

Those little babies work well! In fact, I'm surprised at the magnitude of the improvement. They seem to eliminate a lot of 'hash' at the top end which allows more detail to be heard, and this has a positive effect on what can be discerned at mid and lower frequencies too. As far as I can tell, there are no negatives in the pitch, rhythm, and timing areas (PRaT) and the stage is wider, deeper, with more solid imagery without getting that horrible 'floating head' effect with vocalists.

I'll be posting a report on the Naim forum in the next few days and I'll e-mail you a copy. Thank you for a well thought out, inexpensive, and effective product.

Best Regards, MD"

Made mention elsewhere that Naim didn't take too kindly to my replying to the lad. Banned me for no other reason than telling subscribers that it was me what made them and that I would happily answer questions. Really, that's all there was to it. Hacked up the fellows post, too. Pompous and shameful, IMO.

Believe I will skip over to the music side and start a thread about JAZZ if there isn't one already. I'm knowledgable about the subject if anyone is interested. Thanks. Be seein ya.

jimdgoulding
23-02-2009, 21:33
Review the 3rd .....

I've been playing some more with JimG's anti-diffraction baffles. My latest hodgepodge of available parts has the tweeters on my Bowers Active Ones surrounded by the rectangular baffle originally intended to fit around a ribbon tweeter, and a selection of offcuts butchered from baffles intended for a small midrange unit to go around the mid cones (sadly too small for the 6 inch mids on my Actives).

Effective as the tweeter baffle is, I suspect the biggest improvement is from surrounding the midrange cones with anti-diffraction baffle segments.

See pic below for current arrangement.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/BowersActiveswithWWs.jpg

Hmmmm ..... I'm really not sure I can live without these baffles now. Remove them and the sound seems diffuse, smeared and badly focussed. Damn, but these things work well!

_____

Jim also sent me a set of baffles specifically tailored for the Actives' tweeters, but *shock*horror* they are light-ish grey, rather than the rather fetching black of my original baffles (purchased for my abortive attempt at owning ProAc Future Point Five speakers). Just a no-go aesthetically, for me - I listen with the speaker grilles off and the light grey slabs on the black speaker baffles is just too eye-catching and off-putting. They do sound marginally better than the 'ribbon baffles' though.
Shall I send 'em back to you , Jim?

As the frequency goes down, waveforms become physically longer. They wrap around our enclosures and are reflected later in time by room surfaces and boundaries. The frequencies most responsible for the rendering of instruments and space are propagated by our tweeters. These waveforms are very short and carry the first arrival of midrange info along with all things high frequency. Critical waveforms they are and it's these that are being diffracted by our baffles and cabinet edges. They would be arriving out of time and phase with what your tweeters just sent to you. They muck up your presentation spatially and dimensionally. Using my pads will allow you to see/hear between and around instruments more clearly and deeper into your stage. Your soundscape and the instruments that occupy it are rendered more palpable and recognizably real.

Here is an animated illustration of what diffraction looks like in action (this was not made by me):

http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/images/diffdem.gif

In addition to preserving correct time and phase- purity to waveforms- the removal of diffraction flattens out a deviation or loss of linearity in the frequency domain that is germaine to it at and beyond the crossover. In this regard, a few speaker designers put in a -1db or so dip in their output in this area so this is made less audible. Good for them as that is proactive but most don't do this and you don't see it in published frequency response studies (any) but you ARE hearing it. Those studies are made in controlled settings and at a standard distance from the microphone that has little in common with real world listening environments. Customers tell me that more mid range info emerges using my pads and it makes sense . . for every peak there is a shadow in listening terms. Proper tonality is preserved.

The mechanics of music reproduction should be inaudible and speakers as sources invisable. That's what using my small thing does.

I offer with a 30 day buy back guarantee so you can audition for yourself and I custom fit to a particular speaker. Better listening thru simple science. Your system is better than you think!

Oh, and I can dye them black for a nominal fee (the price of quality dye and the gas to go get it). Cheers

snapper
11-03-2009, 16:12
test

jimdgoulding
12-03-2009, 17:32
Snapper . . don't see your post only that you made one. Perhaps you can re-post. Something must be amiss. I believe there are others missing, as well. Thanks. Oh, nevermind. I see what you did.

snapper
13-03-2009, 17:49
Jim,when I accessed this thread,it showed 7 pages but I couldn't get passed page 6,hence the 'test'.

Seems to be working fine now.

Could have something to do with what happened a few weeks ago.

:confused:

Marco
13-03-2009, 20:01
It's the AOS ghostie... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Primalsea
14-03-2009, 11:03
Its an unfortunate truth that many commercial speakers, even expensive ones, have quite serious design floors. This can be due to simply errors being overlooked and also being purposely ignored in order to have a product thats visually appealing.

While I have never used these diffraction baffles I can say that I had a lot of success with using felt to sorround the drivers of my DIY speakers. I'm positive that it played a hugh part in the pinpoint imaging that they had.

I lov this kind of stuff as its a lot cheaper than things like Mains leads and fancy isolation feet but has a far more noticable improvement. Quite frankly I think that anyone is nuts if they spend a fortune on other ancillaries before using things like this as their effect is far greater.

Of course I have to put in the get out clause of this is all IMO but if you're going to spend a few hundered quid on an interconnet or something try spending a fraction of that on things like this as you can obviously afford it!!

jimdgoulding
15-03-2009, 21:13
Paul, thanks for commenting. I hope it helps others to appreciate your experience and understanding and what there is to be gained.

jimdgoulding
14-06-2009, 16:35
Yesterday, I visited a customer of mine with Eggleston Andra II speakers with Dynaudio Esotar tweeters in a nicely tricked out room. Wow. Very wow. I asked him what he thought his surrounds were contributing and he said they give his system the kiss of live music, that he would recommend them to anybody. And as of today, it pleases me to be able to say that the only continent where I don't have customers in Antarctica. Thank you all and happy listening.

The Grand Wazoo
14-06-2009, 22:07
Jim,
I'm glad you've posted today because I've been meaning to ask you about the possibility of trying out your little wonders on my speakers.

I have a pair of Mirage M3si's and don't know if it's possible to remove the grilles - I've tried..........by God, I've tried, but I can't work out how to do it!

They have really wide front baffles & I know what this can to do to treble frequencies. One of the reasons I went for my last speakers was that, despite being tall & wide floorstanders, they have a narrow face that the tweeter & mid driver are mounted on & that seemed to make a big difference in the imaging (pictures here.... http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2175&page=2)

The Mirages throw a huge soundstage & do all sorts of things that I love, but I can't help thinking that there's something missing in the detail of that image & the positioning of the players within it.

So, a couple of questions:
1. Do you think that your brand of 'fluffy delights' could help me out in this area?
2. Do you have any experience of working with these speakers - & if so how the hell do you get those bloody drivers exposed?

Cheers

jimdgoulding
15-06-2009, 03:22
Chris- Thanks for your inquiry. Unsuccessfully tried to google some info on your model speak. You can see at the Mirage site that they are going in a different direction these days but here is something for you to consider. Wide baffles dispose diffracted waveforms to arrive later in time so they are spread out and less invasive to what is being delivered on time. Spendor and Harbeth have maintained wide baffles over the years and Harbeth goes a step further by reducing the output some in the part of the frequency range that would be effected. When waveforms are reradiated by a speaker's baffle and edges they are being added to what we hear and will generally cause a boost to our frequency response in the lower bandpass of our tweeters. I believe it is Harbeth's intent to address that and to delay the arrival of diffracted waveforms in the former because the late arriving information will be out of time and phase. Your old speakers in that photo have their sides canted back. They should image with more precision altho not as well as if the surface and baffle edges adjacent to your tweeter were non reflective.