A conundrum of valve or SS proportions

[Bigman80]

Hi all,.

As you know I've been trialing the Firebottle27 valve amp. Unfortunately, it's led me down a path of confusion and despair.

I find myself torn between the Sony and the Firebottle27. My love for the Sony is being tested beyond what I could have imagined and I find myself looking at valve amps on eBay!!!

So, my question is :

If you had £800 to spend on an amp, what would you spend it on.

Valve or SS.

I'd like to know what specific model too as I could conceivably be considering selling everything and starting again !!!

Ta,

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[blackstar]

It does depend on the rest of your kit, speakers especially....and how you like your music presented.

[walpurgis]

Hi all,.

As you know I've been trialing the Firebottle27 valve amp. Unfortunately, it's led me down a path of confusion and despair.

I find myself torn between the Sony and the Firebottle27. My love for the Sony is being tested beyond what I could have imagined and I find myself looking at valve amps on eBay!!!

So, my question is :

If you had £800 to spend on an amp, what would you spend it on.

Valve or SS.

I'd like to know what specific model too as I could conceivably be considering selling everything and starting again !!!

Ta,

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

What's wrong with having the Firebottle and getting speakers that really suit it?

A handy guy can build high sensitivity full range speakers into suitable cabinets easily enough without spending the earth. Fostex drivers?

If you've ever heard anything like that, you'll know what I'm talking about. They have speed, detail, transparency and transient response that just does not exist in 'normal' speakers.

http://i64.tinypic.com/2hqcrkj.jpg

[Bigman80]

What's wrong with having the Firebottle and getting speakers that really suit it?

A handy guy can build high sensitivity full range speakers into suitable cabinets easily enough without spending the earth. Fostex drivers?

If you've ever heard anything like that, you'll know what I'm talking about. They have speed, detail, transparency and transient response that just does not exist in 'normal' speakers.

http://i64.tinypic.com/2hqcrkj.jpg
Ok, not heard of them before. I'll look into it.

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[JimC]

............As you know I've been trialling the Firebottle27 valve amp.........................I find myself looking at valve amps on eBay!!!................

Why not buy the Firebottle?

[farflungstar]

Buy the firebottle and the ANe speakers being offered on here. Synergy, musicality.

[Bigman80]

The Firebottle27 is an option I was just asking for opinions in that budget.

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[Bourney]

There is a nice tube technology unisis on here, it is a good amp for having the good virtues of a decent valve amp but without notable power limitations. Cracking amp.

[walpurgis]

The Firebottle would look (and sound) great driving these:

http://i67.tinypic.com/2ujjcrc.jpg

102db sensitivity and the fastest, tightest bass you've ever heard!! Unobtainium though. Coral Beta 10 full range main drivers + supertweeter.


(I built a pair by the way)

[struth]

The Firebottle would look (and sound) great driving these:

http://i67.tinypic.com/2ujjcrc.jpg

102db sensitivity and the fastest, tightest bass you've ever heard!! Unobtainium though. Coral Beta 10 full range main drivers + supertweeter.


(I built a pair by the way)

or my telefunkens :eyebrows:

[Bigman80]

The Firebottle would look (and sound) great driving these:

http://i67.tinypic.com/2ujjcrc.jpg

102db sensitivity and the fastest, tightest bass you've ever heard!! Unobtainium though. Coral Beta 10 full range main drivers + supertweeter.


(I built a pair by the way)
Jesus !!!! They look huge.

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[Bigman80]

There is a nice tube technology unisis on here, it is a good amp for having the good virtues of a decent valve amp but without notable power limitations. Cracking amp.
Ok, I'll have a look. Ta!

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[walpurgis]

Jesus !!!! They look huge.

Quite big. About the same as my Tannoy Cheviots, but maybe 6" deeper. A 2 watt amp is adequate with these! :D

Here's mine, with different supertweeters. It's an old photo. This was years ago.

http://i68.tinypic.com/21mwa49.jpg

[julesd68]

Quite big. About the same as my Tannoy Cheviots, but maybe 6" deeper. A 2 watt amp is adequate with these! :D

Here's mine, with different supertweeters. It's an old photo. This was years ago.

Geoff, how do these Coral drivers compare with all the Tannoys you have heard?

[julesd68]

If you had £800 to spend on an amp, what would you spend it on.

Valve or SS.

There's always a hybrid to consider as well!

[Bigman80]

Quite big. About the same as my Tannoy Cheviots, but maybe 6" deeper. A 2 watt amp is adequate with these! :D

Here's mine, with different supertweeters. It's an old photo. This was years ago.

http://i68.tinypic.com/21mwa49.jpg
Wow. Impressive !!!!

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[Bigman80]

There's always a hybrid to consider as well!
Ah, yes. I believe Alan makes those too😵

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[walpurgis]

Geoff, how do these Coral drivers compare with all the Tannoys you have heard?

Much faster and tighter than any Tannoy I've heard. Incredibly detailed too. I was never quite sure why I sold them actually.

[struth]

my full range single driver these need very little as well.
http://imageshack.com/a/img911/6642/kdbRSv.jpg

[Bigman80]

my full range single driver these need very little as well.
http://imageshack.com/a/img911/6642/kdbRSv.jpg
Seriously, you guys have had so much amazing gear it's crazy.

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[walpurgis]

I'm going to torture Oliver now! :D

Look what I just spotted. Perfect for use with the Firebottle!!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WILMSLOW-AUDIO-LABYRINTH-FE206En-SPEAKERS-BEECH-VENEER-LESS-THAN-HALF-PRICE-/222393554659?hash=item33c7b056e3

[julesd68]

Much faster and tighter than any Tannoy I've heard. Incredibly detailed too. I was never quite sure why I sold them actually.

Damn. I might have to look out for a pair now!!

[struth]

Seriously, you guys have had so much amazing gear it's crazy.

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I rebuilt and altered them. Wasnt hard. then made these plus some more before my double telefunkesn I use now
http://imageshack.com/a/img905/6623/awtN7u.jpg

[walpurgis]

Damn. I might have to look out for a pair now!!

You'll never find any Julian. I've looked now and then, they just don't crop up. They were mega rare even when in production. As far as I'm aware, I had the only pair of Beta 10's to reach the country, bought direct from the importer, who had them for evaluation. By the way, they are also the best finished speakers I've seen. Here's a photo of the drivers:

http://i67.tinypic.com/24nfuyx.jpg

[Bigman80]

I'm going to torture Oliver now! :D

Look what I just spotted. Perfect for use with the Firebottle!!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WILMSLOW-AUDIO-LABYRINTH-FE206En-SPEAKERS-BEECH-VENEER-LESS-THAN-HALF-PRICE-/222393554659?hash=item33c7b056e3
Holy SHIT !!! They are amazing. BUT there's absolutely no way they would fit in my room. Seriously. You guys are killing me.

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[Bigman80]

I rebuilt and altered them. Wasnt hard. then made these plus some more before my double telefunkesn I use now
http://imageshack.com/a/img905/6623/awtN7u.jpg
Outstanding Grant. Truly beautiful

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[struth]

alas they all just sit in corners of the house Oliver. Nice bits of furniture though.. Ive got a set of those Queen Anne exterior cabinets too.. the kind you put a whole speaker in. handy if you have smaller speakers the wife hates lol she ends up with queen anne :lol:

[Bigman80]

alas they all just sit in corners of the house Oliver. Nice bits of furniture though.. Ive got a set of those Queen Anne exterior cabinets too.. the kind you put a whole speaker in. handy if you have smaller speakers the wife hates lol she ends up with queen anne [emoji38]
Haha. The room just isn't big enough mate. I'd love them as well.

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[julesd68]

You'll never find any Julian. I've looked now and then, they just don't crop up. They were mega rare even when in production. As far as I'm aware, I had the only pair of Beta 10's to reach the country, bought direct from the importer, who had them for evaluation. By the way, they are also the best finished speakers I've seen. Here's a photo of the drivers:

http://i67.tinypic.com/24nfuyx.jpg

:smoking:

I'm having a pair of these Geoff, no question. Can't guarantee when but I will have them.

[struth]

was going to chop legs off and turn them into fancy standmounts... may still lol ...nice bit of wood

http://imageshack.com/a/img905/7730/XKUKj4.jpg

[Bigman80]

was going to chop legs off and turn them into fancy standmounts... may still lol ...nice bit of wood

http://imageshack.com/a/img905/7730/XKUKj4.jpg
They look well crafted. I'll be interested to see what you do with them.

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[walpurgis]

:smoking:

I'm having a pair of these Geoff, no question. Can't guarantee when but I will have them.

Look on US or Japan ebay.

(oh and by the way, I still have the manufacturer's plans for the various cabinet options, so if you know a good carpenter.......)

[julesd68]

Look on US or Japan ebay.

(oh and by the way, I still have the manufacture's plans for the various cabinet options, so if you know a good carpenter.......)

Wow, it gets better! That's superb ...

I have a few ideas on how I might rustle up a pair.

[walpurgis]

These are gorgeous too, in a more subtle way.

http://i63.tinypic.com/16ggya1.jpg

From China. L Cao 8" full range single cone 94db alnico drivers, derived from the renowned Mitsubishi Diatone design. Beautifully made!

[struth]

nearly bought a set of those.

[walpurgis]

These are also rather nice.

http://i67.tinypic.com/dpir87.jpg

[Bigman80]

These are also rather nice.

http://i67.tinypic.com/dpir87.jpg
What are they ?

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[walpurgis]

What are they ?

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Also from China. Unbranded 5 1/2" full range drivers, about 92db sensitivity. Cost me around £90 a pair with carriage and duty etc. They sound great!

The L Cao units are far more expensive. Getting on for £500 imported now (if you can find them). Mine were a bit less.

The drivers in both photos are mine.

(I've got quite a few more goodies tucked away :D)

[walpurgis]

Ha! Just found a set of L Cao units on 'jims_audio'. He has two pairs left. I doubt you'll see them on ebay again.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/L-Cao-alnico-matched-full-range-speaker-8-inches-pair-/221922939698?hash=item33aba35332:m:mOoRWbfxZD2pdVg 9zB9Iu4Q

[Bigman80]

Ha! Just found a set of L Cao units on 'jims_audio'. He has two pairs left. I doubt you'll see them on ebay again.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/L-Cao-alnico-matched-full-range-speaker-8-inches-pair-/221922939698?hash=item33aba35332:m:mOoRWbfxZD2pdVg 9zB9Iu4Q
Daft question, could I put a high sensitivity full range driver in the mission cabs ?

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[walpurgis]

You could, but it probably wouldn't be a happy outcome.

Efficient drivers have their own set of cabinet volume and tuning requirements.

[walpurgis]

Take a look at the Fostex site: http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_components/FESeries.shtml

You'll find driver and cabinet details there. They are high quality products.

[Bigman80]

Take a look at the Fostex site: http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_components/FESeries.shtml

You'll find driver and cabinet details there. They are high quality products.
Just looking now Geoff. Says some are suited to horn enclosures. I see they can be used in a bass reflex type cab too. Hmm I wonder how many liters the missions are.

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[walpurgis]

Just looking now Geoff. Says some are suited to horn enclosures. I presume I'd need one suitable for a front ported cab ?

I believe they are all front ported, including the horns.

As a rule, any reflex design speaker (not horn) with a rear port, can just as easily have the same port at the front. The port tunes to the cabinet and driver, not the room.

[walpurgis]

This may interest Julian: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54093.0

[walpurgis]

Coral Beta 10 original BL horn design:

http://i67.tinypic.com/35bwlua.jpg

[walpurgis]

Just looking now Geoff. Says some are suited to horn enclosures. I see they can be used in a bass reflex type cab too. Hmm I wonder how many liters the missions are.

I'd not entertain using the Mission boxes. The volume, damping and porting will be totally wrong.

[Bigman80]

I'd not entertain using the Mission boxes. The volume, damping and porting will be totally wrong.
Yes, I agree. I'm costing this possible change of gear and it's scary lol

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[julesd68]

This may interest Julian: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54093.0

Geoff, as always you are a legend - I've got that bookmarked now ...

Those kind of cabs wouldn't fit in my current space but we're looking at moving so hopefully will have room to make these.
Presumably more slimline cabs would work but won't let the drivers show their full potential ...

[Macca]

Oliver, if you can get 30 miles up the M6 you can have a loan of these

http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/lashupfeb002.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/lashupfeb002.jpg.html)

96dB and an easy load which minimises the problem of frequency response changing as impedance changes. I'm not selling them, but you can have them on a long term loan if you like them. Ideally they need some short stands, about 8 to 12 inches.

[Ali Tait]

Give them a go Oliver, a good speaker.

[Bigman80]

Give them a go Oliver, a good speaker.
Will do. Tried to arrange for collection today but it's a no go.

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[struth]

They are big by way:lol:

[Bigman80]

They are big by way[emoji38]
Lol, yes I'm now wondering if I can get them in the room 🤔

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[struth]

Think main driver is 15" which will give you an idea..

[Bigman80]

Oh. Maybe not then. #shit.

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[Stryder5]

I have an answer to your quandary Oliver.....
......i will have the F27.....
Solves all your problems...

[Bigman80]

I have an answer to your quandary Oliver.....
......i will have the F27.....
Solves all your problems...
Quandary solved Gary, I'm sticking with the Sony because the MC stage is the best I've heard personally and I don't want to move on just yet.

I love the Firebottle27 though. I'm sure I could get Alan to build another at a later date !

Give him a shout if you want it !!!

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[struth]

It was a nicer (looks wise)and more powerful version of Macca's Dulci.Think the Dulci in a box would be good though. Really surprised it didnt sell. Plenty folk with sensitive speakers

[Bigman80]

It was a nicer (looks wise)and more powerful version of Macca's Dulci.Think the Dulci in a box would be good though. Really surprised it didnt sell. Plenty folk with sensitive speakers
That's kind of also why I'm sticking rather than twisting too. I don't have sensitive speakers.

[Stryder5]

Firebottle, sent you pm. First dibs plse.

If we can agree terms......lol

[walpurgis]

That's kind of also why I'm sticking rather than twisting too. I don't have sensitive speakers.

Yet! :D

[Bigman80]

Yet! :D
True, but I haven't got the budget to do everything all at once. I don't have the budget to buy the amp lol.

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[struth]

That's kind of also why I'm sticking rather than twisting too. I don't have sensitive speakers.

Ive 5 sets 92db up to about 99db . If I had a pre I might have had a go for one of them myself.

[Bigman80]

Ive 5 sets 92db up to about 99db . If I had a pre I might have had a go for one of them myself.
Show off. 😂

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[Bigman80]

Conundrum Solved - keep both 😂

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170227/a791141f9818412f4f0bd23246f2a67e.jpg

Using the some as a pre amp and the Firebottle27 as a power amp. Results are very plush.

😎

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[walpurgis]

I figured that'd work! :)

[Bigman80]

I figured that'd work! :)
It does mate, turntable shelf is getting a touch warm though !

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[walpurgis]

turntable shelf is getting a touch warm though !

Stick some aluminised heat reflecting sheet to the shelf underside. The stuff they put on walls behind radiators.

[Bigman80]

Stick some aluminised heat reflecting sheet to the shelf underside. The stuff they put on walls behind radiators.
Good idea ! I am a bit worried it'll burst into flames lol

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[struth]

Think id stick with sony alone, but know why you like the valves.:). Yes its a tad too close to shelf. I had a similar problem, and even though it was further away it did blacken the wood a bit over a period. Surprising the heat that comes of those el84 type valves

[Macca]

Good idea ! I am a bit worried it'll burst into flames lol

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Just don't play that Crazy World of Arthur Brown record and you should be okay :)

[Firebottle]

....... turntable shelf is getting a touch warm though !

Don't hit the reheat (afterburner) button :mad:

Glad the combination is working well :thumbsup:

[Jimbo]

Don't hit the reheat (afterburner) button :mad:

Glad the combination is working well :thumbsup:

He needs a nice valve phono stage now to go with it.:D

[Bigman80]

Reheat button ?

It is working rather well.

Phono stage !!! No way. Not this year lol

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[Stryder5]

Hi Oliver,

Although I hate you for this, you've made the right call.:ner:

Gary






Conundrum Solved - keep both 😂

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170227/a791141f9818412f4f0bd23246f2a67e.jpg

Using the some as a pre amp and the Firebottle27 as a power amp. Results are very plush.

😎

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[walpurgis]

He needs a nice valve phono stage now to go with it.:D

Or a good TVC.

[Bigman80]

Or a good TVC.
TVC ?

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[Bigman80]

Hi Oliver,

Although I hate you for this, you've made the right call.:ner:

Gary
Ha, don't worry Gary, I haven't paid for it yet 😉


I suppose that offer to build me some stands if off the table then 😂

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[walpurgis]

TVC ?

Like this for instance.

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/kits/glasshouse-kits/glasshouse-tvc.html

They sound nothing like an ordinary passive pre-amp.

I use a Chinese MingDa TVC pre-amp. It's the best sounding pre I've come across.

[Bigman80]

Like this for instance.

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/kits/glasshouse-kits/glasshouse-tvc.html

They sound nothing like an ordinary passive pre-amp.

I use a Chinese MingDa TVC pre-amp. It's the best sounding pre I've come across.
They look very interesting. No price on there. That worries me lol

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[Stryder5]

Ha, don't worry Gary, I haven't paid for it yet ��


I suppose that offer to build me some stands if off the table then ��

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No none of it, let me have some sketches and I will make you some, not a problem.

[walpurgis]

Mine looks like this:

http://i63.tinypic.com/11jx3rc.jpg

[RothwellAudio]

They look very interesting. No price on there. That worries me lol

Click on Buy Me at the bottom of the page. It takes you to the ordering page and gives you the price. £430 for a kit, £590 for a built/tested unit.

I'm still baffled as to how a transformer can have less distortion than a pot. The comment that "they sound nothing like an ordinary passive pre-amp" suggests to me that one or the other is seriously affecting the sound. My money is on the TVC.

[walpurgis]

It's the clearest and most uncoloured sound I've heard from a pre-amp of any kind. Also, there's no lack of dynamics, as seems the case with pot or stepped attenuator passives as a rule. Certainly with those I've tried.

[Bigman80]

Click on Buy Me at the bottom of the page. It takes you to the ordering page and gives you the price. £430 for a kit, £590 for a built/tested unit.

I'm still baffled as to how a transformer can have less distortion than a pot. The comment that "they sound nothing like an ordinary passive pre-amp" suggests to me that one or the other is seriously affecting the sound. My money is on the TVC.
Well, that's a lot of money lol. Probably worth it but wow

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[walpurgis]

Well, that's a lot of money lol. Probably worth it but wow

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There are somewhat cheaper options. You could speak to Ali Tait about Slagle 'autoformer' pre-amps too. Yes, that's another choice :).

[struth]

With that size of amp you may be better served with an active


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[Bigman80]

Haha, it gets worse hahaha

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[RothwellAudio]

...turntable shelf is getting a touch warm though !

Marshall guitar amps are in a wooden sleeve with a lot less ventilation than that, but I wouldn't want a wooden shelf so close above the valves. Give it a bit more breathing space.

[walpurgis]

Haha, it gets worse hahaha

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0611/slagle_autoformer_volume_control_modules.htm

Some people say rude things about TVC's and autoformers, but that does not alter the fact that they can sound amazingly good.

I expect somebody will pipe up about LDR pre-amps now. :D

[walpurgis]

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/09/22/slagle-autoformer-volume-control/

[walpurgis]

http://robmid42.wixsite.com/diyaudiokits/stereo-coffee-preamplifier

[Macca]

I'm still baffled as to how a transformer can have less distortion than a pot. The comment that "they sound nothing like an ordinary passive pre-amp" suggests to me that one or the other is seriously affecting the sound. My money is on the TVC.

Agree, 'an ordinary passive pre amp' should sound of nothing at all. I want to listen to the recording, not the pre-amp's take on the recording. Not many people seem to care about this sort of thing anymore though. My advise would be get an NVA passive stepped attenuator. Not cheap but they do come up used sometimes and they are cheaper than the traffo efforts (unless you DIY - see Ali about that). I've compared it with a fair few and IMO the P90SA gives nothing away to any pre-amp, active or passive, at any price.

[Bigman80]

Agree, 'an ordinary passive pre amp' should sound of nothing at all. I want to listen to the recording, not the pre-amp's take on the recording. Not many people seem to care about this sort of thing anymore though. My advise would be get an NVA passive stepped attenuator. Not cheap but they do come up used sometimes and they are cheaper than the traffo efforts (unless you DIY - see Ali about that). I've compared it with a fair few and IMO the P90SA gives nothing away to any pre-amp, active or passive, at any price.
I will probably go with the NVA option. Look well made. Unless Geoff twists my melon again lol

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[walpurgis]

It would be a shame if there were preconceived ideas about how my TVC pre-amp may sound. Nobody on this forum (or probably any other UK forum) apart from myself has heard one. There are only three in the UK to my knowledge. I have one and I know who has the other two. He won't be parting with them anytime soon.

There seems to be opinion that TVC's add colourations. That's not the impression I get listening to mine. Quite the opposite actually. Comparing it to other pre-amps of any kind, has been like opening a pair of curtains in front of the sound. It's an advance in clarity, transparency and lack of colouration and the sound has decent weight, with no curtailment of bandwidth.

[Bigman80]

It would be a shame if there were preconceived ideas about how my TVC pre-amp may sound. Nobody on this forum (or probably any other UK forum) apart from myself has heard one. There are only three in the UK to my knowledge. I have one and I know who has the other two. He won't be parting with them anytime soon.

There seems to be opinion that TVC's add colourations. That's not the impression I get listening to mine. Quite the opposite actually. Comparing it to other pre-amps of any kind, has been like opening a pair of curtains in front of the sound. It's an advance in clarity, transparency and lack of colouration and the sound has decent weight, with no curtailment of bandwidth.
Ok, Geoff. My opinion is, if you say it's good then it will be. I'm thinking of it from a cost perspective. Maybe I shouldn't and save some pennies and get the better stuff. I'll have a look into the unit you own and maybe one day there will be two who've heard of e on the forum lol

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[walpurgis]

I'll have a look into the unit you own and maybe one day there will be two who've heard of e on the forum lol

You might struggle with that Oliver. They were seldom offered for sale and never in the UK. A Google may find one in the far east though.

[Bigman80]

You might struggle with that Oliver. They were seldom offered for sale and never in the UK. A Google may find one in the far east though.
Lol typical.

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[Macca]

It would be a shame if there were preconceived ideas about how my TVC pre-amp may sound. Nobody on this forum (or probably any other UK forum) apart from myself has heard one. There are only three in the UK to my knowledge. I have one and I know who has the other two. He won't be parting with them anytime soon.

There seems to be opinion that TVC's add colourations. That's not the impression I get listening to mine. Quite the opposite actually. Comparing it to other pre-amps of any kind, has been like opening a pair of curtains in front of the sound. It's an advance in clarity, transparency and lack of colouration and the sound has decent weight, with no curtailment of bandwidth.

On paper using a transformer in a passive is going to add some distortion, in practice that isn't the case; my argument is that they are more expensive than a good stepped attenuator and are not any better. So why pay more?

[Bigman80]

With that size of amp you may be better served with an active


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Suggestions welcomed!

[Bigman80]

http://www.tisburyaudio.co.uk/mini-passive-preamplifier

Looks alone, this is nice

[walpurgis]

http://www.tisburyaudio.co.uk/mini-passive-preamplifier

Looks alone, this is nice

It's just a volume control and will give no advantage over the built in volume control in the Sony or Firebottle.

[Bigman80]

It's just a volume control and will give no advantage over the built in volume control in the Sony or Firebottle.

hmmm,

right, whats the difference between what you have and the thibg i shared ?

[walpurgis]

hmmm,

right, whats the difference between what you have and the thibg i shared ?

This should explain.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/django_e.html

It also includes a comparison to the NVA passive.

[Bigman80]

This should explain.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/django_e.html

It also includes a comparison to the NVA passive.
Ah, I see. So TVR it is lol

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[walpurgis]

Ah, I see. So TVR it is lol

A TVR is a sports car! :D

[walpurgis]

A TVC is a possibilty, as is an autoformer or LDR pre-amp. But there again there are good active pre-amps, valve and solid state types. Stepped attenuator and potentiometer pre-amps (volume controls really) can work well with some power amps.

[Bigman80]

A TVR is a sports car! :D
Lmao, that's what I'm going with. 😂😂😂😂

It'll all come down to budget in the end. The slangle (?) Is probably the best cheapest option. Who knows. I need to pay for the amp first 😂

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[Macca]

This should explain.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/django_e.html

It also includes a comparison to the NVA passive.

Doesn't say which NVA passive though. There are at least 4 in the range. The top one is the P90SA. I think £600 new although I got mine second-hand. Not heard any of the others so can't comment.

He makes a bit much of the problem of compatibility with power amp. Tried mine with at least a dozen different power amps, valve, solid state, single ended, OTL, the lot. Only had one it had any problem with and that was a Nikko (IIRC).

He's right about interconnects mattering more, though. But that is hardly a big deal.

[dimkasta]

Be careful with passive attenuators.
Not every setup can work nicely with them. There is a reason that preamps exist. They are not just a convenience device to help you control the volume with a remote.
For example, if your amp has a wimpy low input impedance and/or your source has a wimpy high one, you are going to have issues with a resistive attenuator in between them. Add to that a random interconnect with high-ish capacitance and you WILL say bye-bye to fidelity.

A TVC tends to be more forgiving with matching. But they ARE transformers, which tend to have bandwidth issues and are certainly not cheap if you want quality.

As I said above, there is a reason preamps exist. They are not just a volume control.
I like to think of them as a good playmaker. It is the device that organizes your "game" and helps all other parts cooperate nicely with each other. And not only in a "convenience" way. Mostly in an electrical way.

Not that preamps do not have their own issues. For example coupling capacitors or weak power supplies.

In any case, try to audition everything before buying. And google for negative comments or problems. Don't read just the positive stuff.

That said, I am currently using a pair of Promitheus Signature TVCs. But in some cases I really miss the dynamics that my diy jfet preamp offers. The resistive attenuators I have tried (including cheap blue alps in a box, lightspeed LDR based, khosmo, custom diy with TKD switch and custom with silver contact relays) cannot even compete with either the TVC or the active preamp (using TKD switches and precision wirewound attenuator to give you a better idea of what I am using).

As for tubes vs SS, whatever you chose, keep also in mind the cost of replacing the tubes in the long run. Not only because they will need to be replaced. But also because you will be tempted to find better ones, and because each time they will need rebiasing (if you want a properly working amp).
They really tend to be high-maintenance devices.

[Bigman80]

Be careful with passive attenuators.
Not every setup can work nicely with them. There is a reason that preamps exist. They are not just a convenience device to help you control the volume with a remote.
For example, if your amp has a wimpy low input impedance and/or your source has a wimpy high one, you are going to have issues with a resistive attenuator in between them. Add to that a random interconnect with high-ish capacitance and you WILL say bye-bye to fidelity.

A TVC tends to be more forgiving with matching. But they ARE transformers, which tend to have bandwidth issues and are certainly not cheap if you want quality.

As I said above, there is a reason preamps exist. They are not just a volume control.
I like to think of them as a good playmaker. It is the device that organizes your "game" and helps all other parts cooperate nicely with each other. And not only in a "convenience" way. Mostly in an electrical way.

Not that preamps do not have their own issues. For example coupling capacitors or weak power supplies.

In any case, try to audition everything before buying. And google for negative comments or problems. Don't read just the positive stuff.

That said, I am currently using a pair of Promitheus Signature TVCs. But in some cases I really miss the dynamics that my diy jfet preamp offers. The resistive attenuators I have tried (including cheap blue alps in a box, lightspeed LDR based, khosmo, custom diy with TKD switch and custom with silver contact relays) cannot even compete with either the TVC or the active preamp (using TKD switches and precision wirewound attenuator to give you a better idea of what I am using).

As for tubes vs SS, whatever you chose, keep also in mind the cost of replacing the tubes in the long run. Not only because they will need to be replaced. But also because you will be tempted to find better ones, and because each time they will need rebiasing (if you want a properly working amp).
They really tend to be high-maintenance devices.
Well that's very informative. Thanks !



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[Infinitely Baffled]

I know it's wrong to weigh into a debate about the respective merits of two competing bits of kit without having good experience of listening to both over a period of time. And I'll admit right off that I haven't heard what a TVC or an LDR sound like. But when I read a review that comes out with this:

" ... Bass was tighter and the whole presentation was more musical and natural. There was more detail, especially in the lower frequencies. Not an enormous difference in any specific respect, but it certainly added up to a better sound overall ... The whole soundstage also seems to be bigger and especially deeper than before ... "

I am deeply suspicious. For me, this is just hi-fi reviewer-speak for "we couldn't hear much difference but we have to write something". Remember that these people make their living from selling copy. They depend on generating interest in readers (and encouraging that to turn into sales) and frankly, there needs to be a story, even when there isn't a story. Observations like those quoted above have a whiff of desperation about them. Or am I just becoming hopelessly cynical? (The quoted extract comes from the TNT Audio review of the "Django" pre, linked to in the earlier post.)
IB

[Firebottle]

Yes I think it is a little like describing a monochrome image with rainbow colours.

I'll get my coat .......

[Macca]

I know it's wrong to weigh into a debate about the respective merits of two competing bits of kit without having good experience of listening to both over a period of time. And I'll admit right off that I haven't heard what a TVC or an LDR sound like. But when I read a review that comes out with this:

" ... Bass was tighter and the whole presentation was more musical and natural. There was more detail, especially in the lower frequencies. Not an enormous difference in any specific respect, but it certainly added up to a better sound overall ... The whole soundstage also seems to be bigger and especially deeper than before ... "

I am deeply suspicious. For me, this is just hi-fi reviewer-speak for "we couldn't hear much difference but we have to write something". Remember that these people make their living from selling copy. They depend on generating interest in readers (and encouraging that to turn into sales) and frankly, there needs to be a story, even when there isn't a story. Observations like those quoted above have a whiff of desperation about them. Or am I just becoming hopelessly cynical? (The quoted extract comes from the TNT Audio review of the "Django" pre, linked to in the earlier post.)
IB

Agree that is sometimes the case but not always. For me if they are claiming night and day improvements that is always a bit more suss than saying there was a small but noticeable improvement overall. of course you don't know how bad the system was before they introduced the review component...

[Bigman80]

Well, I've ignored all of the advice and decided I'm going to get some of Alan's Firebottle gear. When ? Who knows but on hearing them on many occasions they will provide what I'm after.

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[walpurgis]

I've ignored all of the advice

Good lad!! :lolsign:

[Bigman80]

Good lad!! [emoji38]sign:
Lol.

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[RothwellAudio]

Observations like those quoted above have a whiff of desperation about them. Or am I just becoming hopelessly cynical? (The quoted extract comes from the TNT Audio review of the "Django" pre, linked to in the earlier post.)
IB
Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy scepticism in my opinion. Here's another quote from the same review:
"But, since a few years, a different type of passive preamp has been available. They're known as TVC: Transformer Volume Control. Instead of relying on resistive potentiometers, this type uses a transformer to attenuate the signal....making this a solution that has some serious theoretical advantages over the classic resistive passive preamp."
Yes, but no mention of the serious theoretical disadvantages.
And here's a quote from the manufacturer's comments: "Rubbish switches noticeably degrade transparency. Of the ones we tried, Seiden (which is gold on silver) has the best transparency and doesn't have the sterile sound caused by some other high end switches".
Comments like that make me wonder if I'm deaf!

[Ali Tait]

Translation- Seiden gave us a good deal on a job lot. :-)

[Barry]

Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy scepticism in my opinion. Here's another quote from the same review:
"But, since a few years, a different type of passive preamp has been available. They're known as TVC: Transformer Volume Control. Instead of relying on resistive potentiometers, this type uses a transformer to attenuate the signal....making this a solution that has some serious theoretical advantages over the classic resistive passive preamp."
Yes, but no mention of the serious theoretical disadvantages.
And here's a quote from the manufacturer's comments: "Rubbish switches noticeably degrade transparency. Of the ones we tried, Seiden (which is gold on silver) has the best transparency and doesn't have the sterile sound caused by some other high end switches".
Comments like that make me wonder if I'm deaf!

There are some who claim to hear differences between various RCA phono connectors. (Not me, mind you!)

[Bigman80]

There are some who claim to hear differences between various RCA phono connectors. (Not me, mind you!)
Are we talking actual RCA plugs or the interconnects ?

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[walpurgis]

Plugs!

[Barry]

Are we talking actual RCA plugs or the interconnects ?

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The connectors: plugs and sockets.

[Marco]

There are some who claim to hear differences between various RCA phono connectors. (Not me, mind you!)

Count me in! In that respect, I only ever use solid-copper or solid-silver types (cheapo brass ones sounds cack, in comparison) :thumbsup:

;)

I also think that Seiden make the best switches, but only in terms of operational 'feel' (smoothness of the 'action', as it were), not sonically, as I've never compared them in that way with other switches.

Marco.

[Bigman80]

Plugs definitely, RCA sockets hmmmm, never upgraded any so i dont know

[dimkasta]

Yeah I'm one of those too. I currently use some Chinese plugs my local shop sells, and CMC silver sockets. I have also had good experience with neutric rca sockets and XLR sockets and plugs (not with rca plugs). And not so much with anything from amphenol, switchcraft (good switches though), rean and deltron (good banana plugs). I also have a pair of Eichman silver bullets which I got used for dirt cheap. They sound nice but are really crappy mechanically. I would never pay full price for them.

If you want to be a believer, spend 20 bucks and get a set of Neutrik profi plugs. Install them on your interconnects and do some listening. No reason to let them break in or anything. Just desolder them, throw them out of the window and come here to curse me for making you throw away 20 bucks on those pieces of crap.

[Bigman80]

Yeah I'm one of those too. I currently use some Chinese plugs my local shop sells, and CMC silver sockets. I have also had good experience with neutric rca sockets and XLR sockets and plugs (not with rca plugs). And not so much with anything from amphenol, switchcraft (good switches though), rean and deltron (good banana plugs). I also have a pair of Eichman silver bullets which I got used for dirt cheap. They sound nice but are really crappy mechanically. I would never pay full price for them.

If you want to be a believer, spend 20 bucks and get a set of Neutrik profi plugs. Install them on your interconnects and do some listening. No reason to let them break in or anything. Just desolder them, throw them out of the window and come here to curse me for making you throw away 20 bucks on those pieces of crap.
Lmfao. I've used rean plugs which I don't like. Poor contact area imo.

Shockwave pure copper RCA - Very nice construction but too smooth for my liking

Snake Gold RCA - Best bargain plugs about imo

MS Audio Silver & Rhodium - my favourites.

Mark Grant Gold plated spring loaded RCA- very good contact area. No difference from Snake gold except price.

They are very noticeable difference too. I used Klotz with every pair.

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[Infinitely Baffled]

Hmmm ... think I'll get my toaster silver-wired. Breakfasts will be magnificent!
IB

[walpurgis]

Hmmm ... think I'll get my toaster silver-wired. Breakfasts will be magnificent!
IB

Don't forget the £90 'special' fuse. :D

[Stryder5]

Hmmm ... think I'll get my toaster silver-wired. Breakfasts will be magnificent!
IB

Oh some people, all bread tastes the same, it's the toaster that makes the difference, the wires don't make any difference unless you use the silver plated plug tops and sockets.........lol.......:D

[Jimbo]

A little bit of silver in your system gives it a sparkle.:)

[Barry]

Yeah I'm one of those too. I currently use some Chinese plugs my local shop sells, and CMC silver sockets. I have also had good experience with neutric rca sockets and XLR sockets and plugs (not with rca plugs). And not so much with anything from amphenol, switchcraft (good switches though), rean and deltron (good banana plugs). I also have a pair of Eichman silver bullets which I got used for dirt cheap. They sound nice but are really crappy mechanically. I would never pay full price for them.

If you want to be a believer, spend 20 bucks and get a set of Neutrik profi plugs. Install them on your interconnects and do some listening. No reason to let them break in or anything. Just desolder them, throw them out of the window and come here to curse me for making you throw away 20 bucks on those pieces of crap.

All RCA phono connectors are lousy designs. The worse IMO are Eichman bullet plugs (having the least contact area, and the greatest Hertzian constiction resistance) and the best are Neutrik 'Profi' plugs. But all are lousy compared to CAMAC designs and XLRs.

[dimkasta]

I agree about the profis having a nice mechanical contact, but the spring mechanism seems to kill everything good going on with this plug.

After all, they are not designed for performance, but to allow them to be disconnected from live equipment without pops.

The Chinese wbt knockoffs I am using now have a locking jacket that also makes a very nice contact. I also like using both screw and solder to secure the wire in them.

They look like that

19567

[RothwellAudio]

All RCA phono connectors are lousy designs. The worse IMO are Eichman bullet plugs (having the least contact area, and the greatest Hertzian constiction resistance) and the best are Neutrik 'Profi' plugs. But all are lousy compared to CAMAC designs and XLRs.

I agree that Eichmann Bullets look and feel terrible and their sales pitch contains far too much voodoo for my liking.
Interestingly, I was talking to a radio astronomer a while ago who uses phono plugs on his radio kit. He says they are good well into several megahertz and that RCA originally designed them as an RF connector.

[Stryder5]

I agree about the profis having a nice mechanical contact, but the spring mechanism seems to kill everything good going on with this plug.

After all, they are not designed for performance, but to allow them to be disconnected from live equipment without pops.

The Chinese wbt knockoffs I am using now have a locking jacket that also makes a very nice contact. I also like using both screw and solder to secure the wire in them.

They look like that

19567

I have the Chinese WBT copy, I solder them too. Great price.

The Chinese KLEI copies, MS Audio Star work well too.

[Barry]

I agree that Eichmann Bullets look and feel terrible and their sales pitch contains far too much voodoo for my liking.
Interestingly, I was talking to a radio astronomer a while ago who uses phono plugs on his radio kit. He says they are good well into several megahertz and that RCA originally designed them as an RF connector.

The RCA connector was designed in the 1930's to allow a phonograph (and hence their name "phono") to be connected to a radio set using the audio amplifer of the latter. As a coaxial connector, they can be used at RF up to a frequency of hundreds of MHz, because the diameter of both the inner and outer connections are small, so the cut-on frequency of the lowest higher order mode (TE11) will be high. But they were never designed ab initio to be a RF connector.

[RothwellAudio]

But they were never designed ab initio to be a RF connector.

No, I wasn't convinced when he told me that. Still, he was using them successfully at megahertz so I didn't argue.

[anthonyTD]

BNC connectors are far better than any Phono Plug/socket IMHO, and some folk use them through out their audio systems instead of phono's.
a...

[Gazjam]

BNC all the way or even better imo XLR if you can.

[Jimbo]

XLR great but only work if you have them from beginning to end.

[Barry]

BNC connectors are far better than any Phono Plug/socket IMHO, and some folk use them through out their audio systems instead of phono's.
a...

Agreed!

[dimkasta]

It's just convenient to use rca. For example if you want to try some new source or loan a piece to a friend, or even sell something