PDA

View Full Version : New house, new listening room, new system



The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2009, 00:18
Photos (use "grubby" the grey cat as a point of referance)

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/dbc1d05e.jpg

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/9c6398da.jpg

I can't belive how different it sounds, the high ceilings and suspended floors have swollowed a lot of bass, and I did shit my self before I put a couple of pictures on the wall ... There was very little bass indeed! Anyway, it's sounding pretty good now, but I can't really play it that loud yet, first night with new neighbours etc!
Will be babbleing more in good time I should think!!

The Grand Wazoo
28-12-2009, 00:32
Whey....hey - yer in!!
And it looks like you found spots to store the booze & the hifi! The two most significant places in any house!

It's begining to look like home already mate - I hope all your effort feels like it's been worth it.

It looks like your speakers will finally get the change they need to do what they can do.
Even the cat looks reasonably happy.
Cheers Mate!

Alex_UK
28-12-2009, 00:34
Love that you have the priorities right - stereo set up, booze in the fireplace! :lol:

Glad it all went well (assuming it wasn't a total nightmare!) - enjoy!

(Must be some sort of record from looking to moving in? Takes most of us a lot longer!)

The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2009, 00:45
:lolsign:
right let me tell you what we moved in today:
1. Everything you can see
2. Fridge
3. Matress

we are doing it room at a time in order of importance, the hifi came was here before anything else!

Let me tell you about the sofa though - it is 66cm tall 100cm front to back and 217cm wide! The door into the room is standard hight and the hall way is too narow to manover it into the room. So, it had to go through the window - the pinchline: the hole that the sash window creates - exactly 66cm tall and 100cm wide! No word of a lie! We did laugh! well, that's after I shit my self for about ten minutes after remembering measuring the sofa as exactly 70cm tall

Spectral Morn
28-12-2009, 10:26
Looking good Hamish, looking good.

I would try firing the system across the room i.e the speakers each side of the fireplace...the floor tends to be stronger there. I would also put a carpet down ( boo hiss....I know but it will sound better).

You can try all this when you are fully in and got a measure of how the room is effecting the sound.

Glad everything went well.


Regards D S D L

The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2009, 11:22
We took the carpet up, it was hidious bright red and all dirty
we have big plans for a room "makeover" but the actual configuration of the room as it is does apeal to both of us
I think it might be worth while me getting some isolation for the speakers though, I remember listening to a system in a room with a suspended floor before with the speakers just on the floor and then on some stands that looked a little like Marcos hifi isolation things it apeared very effective in terms of bringing an overall tonal balance to the sound!
Migh something like this be worth investigating?

The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2009, 12:58
There is def some tweaking to be done in here I think! I'm sure this floor must be some of the culiprit as the bloody cat walking past makes it wobble, but the room also seems a little bass less as even the tv sounds more thin!
I can see me posting in the artists pallet a lot in months to come!!
anyone got any thoughts on isolating the speakers better then? Maybe some granite under them? Or should I worry about the stand first?

DSJR
28-12-2009, 13:26
Suspended floors can absorb and transmit bass, so perhaps a form of isolation may be a good idea. Jimmy hughes took a concrete paving slab and covered it with tiles to "decorate" it. the end result looked really good and he claimed it helped a lot too..

The Linn and Rega way was to either re-inforce the joists underneath the floor-boards (Roy Gandy's old vicarage had large voids under the floor to which he built brick "platforms" IIRC and Linn got us to lay an MDF "island" where the speakers were. I'll try and post some pics soon, when I get in the loft to find the photos..

If you're happy with the speakers where they are, then fine. I myself would have tried them either side of the fireplace and maybe put the huge TV above the fireplace(?)

The Grand Wazoo
28-12-2009, 14:01
I used to live in a place with a really dodgy floor so I drilled through it then I bought some threaded bar the same thread & diameter as the spikes. I pushed it up through the boards from below, screwed it into the threaded bushes in the bottom of the speakers & then nipped up some nuts with big washers from below. It worked a treat but you have to know exactly where you're going to place them & be prepared for them to stay there. The holes are easy to fill later in needed.

However, later on in another house with a better floor, one of the best improvements I ever made to floorstanding speakers was to bolt 18mm steel plates to the bottom of them.

EDIT: The trick with the threaded bar came after trying Dave's trick with the MDF island - I screwed them to the floorboards, then sunk X-head screws through both & placed the spikes in the x-heads. The threaded bar workd better for me - but a bit more of a commitment!

Marco
28-12-2009, 15:39
Hi Hamish,

Glad you're in and settled now - that's half the battle! I wish Hannah and you (and all your pets) many happy and healthy years in your new home :)


I think it might be worth while me getting some isolation for the speakers though, I remember listening to a system in a room with a suspended floor before with the speakers just on the floor and then on some stands that looked a little like Marcos hifi isolation things it apeared very effective in terms of bringing an overall tonal balance to the sound!
Migh something like this be worth investigating?


In a word, yes! I've got the perfect solution too, some Mana Soundbases (surplus to requirements now I have the, erm, 'rather large' Tannoys), which would work superbly well under your PMCs - in fact, from experience I know just how effective they would be..... ;)

If you want, Steve and me could pop down in the New Year and I'll install them for and you can analyse their effect to see if you like it :cool:

Marco.

Stratmangler
28-12-2009, 15:45
Coins under the speaker spikes will give an indication of the effects of isolation - a platform for each speaker would be even better.

Chris:)

Jonboy
28-12-2009, 15:53
Hi Hamish, i hope you are both as comfortable as the dog looks in your new home, you mind that Stella don't give you a headache when drunk to excess, it does me :lol:

Slabs from a builders merchants or diy store at £1 a piece to get you started with you speaker isolation, use bluetack to level under neath or a rug

chris@panteg
28-12-2009, 17:07
Hi Hamish

Your room is similar to my front room ' same type of suspended floor though mine has a bay, interesting about the bass you are getting ' i have always had a bit of boom with mine.

The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2009, 19:02
Funny you say that chris I have just done this

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/98d2293b.jpg

bloody great big bit of rock under each speaker! The sound has filled out no end, I have also moved the speakers slightly fether out of the bay and the soundstage has got massivly wider...
So yeah, it's funny coz the caveat of all this is that I now have a boom to the lower bass! Ah well it's a step in the fright direction! It much more enjoyable this tweaking when you know it not the kit that is at fault - just the room/moron in it moving the stuff about...

The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2009, 20:09
I'm feeling quite smug now, moved the speakers right out the bay with them sat on the blocks of lime stone and the balance in the sound I had in the previous house is there and all but the lowest of frequencies arnt booming to much! The only track I can find that causes a major problem is the second one on broken skin with that low bass rumble... That makes the place shake!
Not quite perfect but more progress made.. Just have to hope hannah doesn't notice how far out into the room the speakers are!

John
28-12-2009, 20:17
Well done those speakers need a bit of space to get the best out of them and now you getting close to the full potential of your system

The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2009, 20:28
Hannah hasn't noticed either ... Sweeet! :)

chris@panteg
28-12-2009, 22:53
Hamish

those slabs look the bis ' bit cheaper than a nice polished piece of granite '

The Vinyl Adventure
28-12-2009, 23:02
It's just a garden slab £7.49 from homebase, they are a little bit long, but never mind gives me room to move the speakers without draging stone over the floor

Kris
29-12-2009, 16:49
Glad you're getting settled in to your new home Hamish.

I don't know how you can listen to your Tv through the built in speakers. But each to their own . .

Is the sound not unbalanced having the TV (large flat reflective surface) so near the front of the left hand speaker?

Kris.

The Vinyl Adventure
29-12-2009, 17:08
I do feel an urge to sit ferther to the right than I should, but it's not to bad to be fair! I'm used to being sat completely off cetre so sound stangeing is lower on my list of prioritys

Rare Bird
30-12-2009, 00:49
Hamish i got a mate with a nice shiney LG TV that would fit nicely into that room..yours for a song..;)

The Vinyl Adventure
30-12-2009, 00:52
Ik stuck with the panny plassy cheers matey!

Primalsea
30-12-2009, 09:49
I do wonder if theres a huge banner in the LG factory beaming the words "Lifes Good" over the poor bastards who probably spend 12 hour shifts making the TV's.

The Vinyl Adventure
30-12-2009, 11:13
Nah just a man with a "large gun"

Rare Bird
30-12-2009, 15:32
cheers matey!

Only got a bent front pannel nothing much :lolsign:

alfie2902
02-01-2010, 12:40
Hamish,

If you're still having booming problems due to the wooden floor singing along you should try de-coupling the speakers from the floor.

The new new slabs should help to tighten up the bass a little, but they are still coupling the speakers to the floor. Spikes, Spike feet or 1p 2p coins or the mana will all still couple. They will make a difference to how things sound, whatever you stand them on will effect how they sound (all equipment in fact IMO)

Spend a tenner on this, cut it into lengths as long as your slabs or granite chopping boards & place 2 lengths under the slabs with the speakers on top. The slabs will keep the solidity they've added to the bass & the platfoam will decouple the speakers from the wooden floor. This will help to stop resonance transfering to your floor but if you have a void under the floor that may be singing along too!

http://www.studiospares.com/Sound-Insulation/Auralex-Platfoam-X1-Piece/invt/461330

Give it a try Hamish!

Cheers, alfie

alfie2902
04-01-2010, 16:29
Here's A picture of the above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss55/alfie2902/Junk/my_kit_platfoam.jpg

The Vinyl Adventure
04-01-2010, 16:57
Blimey, is that how big that stuff is? I was expacting it to be much smaller... I shall be getting some as soon as my bank has changed my address details, nothing seems to be letting me buy stuff at the mo!
Cheers for the pointer!

DSJR
04-01-2010, 17:00
I'm sure that stuff's used in electronics packaging too and the material reminds me of that used in the Spacemat, which does for records what this stuff does for speaker isolation..

The Vinyl Adventure
04-01-2010, 17:09
funnily enough it comes in exactly the right shape and size to have one peice per bit of lime stone
question is - when i get it, how do i cut it?

Rare Bird
04-01-2010, 17:18
Here's A picture of the above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss55/alfie2902/Junk/my_kit_platfoam.jpg

They look like the weighing scales in the boozer bogs :lolsign:

Alex_UK
04-01-2010, 21:24
You have scales in your boozer? All we get down south is a Johnny machine - if we start stuffing money in that we're past caring about weight! :lol:

Barry
04-01-2010, 22:54
Belated congratulations Hamish!

There can't be many families who move house at Christmas. Trust the move went reasonably well (and justified all those 'ciggies!).

Here's wishing both you and Hanna a very happy time in your new home. There will be plenty of time to 'optimise' your system and I'm sure you will have a lot of fun in the process. :cheers:

Regards

(P.S. Is 'Grubby' 18% grey scale?)

The Vinyl Adventure
04-01-2010, 23:37
I suspect he might be, I might start taking him on jobs with me on a little lead and getting people to hold him up in front of them... He would actually really enjoy that he is quite the little wierdo

cheers Barry, all happy so far, hannah has gin a bit mad and painted the kitchen a very strong bluey colour... But hey, I don't care, as long as she's happy!

Steve Toy
05-01-2010, 02:32
That foam stuff is also used under my MDF plinths beneath my speakers. Alfie, those plinths look gorgeous and I bet they do a great job of grounding resonances in the speaker cabinets too.

The Vinyl Adventure
05-01-2010, 11:14
Last night me and hannah have agreed to take some of the fixed cabinets out of the the alcoves in room so as to allow for placement of the speakers across the room
god bloody help me if I decide it doesn't sound better though, I have ha to be a little more insistant (marco you would be proud :lol:) this is going to involve getting a plasterer in and getting a gas main moved!!
I think I will sound better though - low volumes are fine, but in the few instances have have turned it up I am getting some problems with the high frequencies - they aorta sound a bit muddled, and I wasn't getting this in the last house! Wish me luck everyone, coz if I change my mind once it's moved I'm gona be in all kinds of shit!!

The Vinyl Adventure
05-01-2010, 11:17
Marco, steve, I'm not getting this done before you come down though just incase the problems are fixed with better stands and speaker supports!

The Vinyl Adventure
05-01-2010, 11:35
That foam stuff is also used under my MDF plinths beneath my speakers. Alfie, those plinths look gorgeous and I bet they do a great job of grounding resonances in the speaker cabinets too.

Steve, if you are after something similar, These people are near me and I'm on pretty good terms with a lady who works there (I drink with her husband) she has said to me in the past she can and has made stuff for hifi. I took some photos up there on a location reccy once, they have some awesome tools!!

The Vinyl Adventure
05-01-2010, 15:23
I guess a link helps

http://www.hnd-uk.com/index.htm

Spectral Morn
05-01-2010, 15:27
Last night me and hannah have agreed to take some of the fixed cabinets out of the the alcoves in room so as to allow for placement of the speakers across the room
god bloody help me if I decide it doesn't sound better though, I have ha to be a little more insistant (marco you would be proud :lol:) this is going to involve getting a plasterer in and getting a gas main moved!!
I think I will sound better though - low volumes are fine, but in the few instances have have turned it up I am getting some problems with the high frequencies - they aorta sound a bit muddled, and I wasn't getting this in the last house! Wish me luck everyone, coz if I change my mind once it's moved I'm gona be in all kinds of shit!!


It will sound better Hamish.


Regards D S D L

Rare Bird
05-01-2010, 15:57
That foam stuff is also used under my MDF plinths beneath my speakers. Alfie, those plinths look gorgeous and I bet they do a great job of grounding resonances in the speaker cabinets too.

Look better with a surround around the foam & granite

Marco
05-01-2010, 16:41
Marco, steve, I'm not getting this done before you come down though just incase the problems are fixed with better stands and speaker supports!

No worries, matey - you'll be the judge of that, of course, but I'm confident that we'll be able to elimanate your problems in that respect :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
06-01-2010, 20:47
Alfie

check this out

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/08626973.jpg

not as neat as yours but it's not to bad, just a shame they only sent me one bit so far... Fingers crossed for tomo!

Marco, it will be interesting to see how this bit of foam and rock £40 total spend compares to the mana

alfie2902
06-01-2010, 21:59
That foam stuff is also used under my MDF plinths beneath my speakers. Alfie, those plinths look gorgeous and I bet they do a great job of grounding resonances in the speaker cabinets too.

Just caught up with this thread!

The plinths in the picture aren't mine! They are some a wammer uses! Since moving house I've not been using mine as I've got a concrete floor here. Mine just use 1 granite chopping board & 2 lengths of platfoam as Hamish has used. The ones in the pic use 2 chopping boards with sorbathane in between. The effect should be the same though.

I also have a pair of Auralex mopads which I use with a pair of bookshelf speakers. Same foam stuff though.

Hamish.

Thats just the job! Shame both lengths didn't arrive together. Can you hear any improvement with only 1 speaker treated? Will look forward to what you think when both are in place & again after you've tried the Mana.

Cheers, alfie

The Vinyl Adventure
06-01-2010, 22:05
I'm not going to confuse my self by listening to a half job alfie, I shall wait for the morning when hopefully the other bit arives. Despite the picture you showed me I wasn't entierly confident it would hold the weight of the lime stone and bigger pmc's so I thought I'd try it out.. Now it's in place and I'm watching a film I can't be stuffed to undo it for the evening!
like you say, it will be very interesting to see how this holds up to the mana!

Marco
06-01-2010, 23:16
like you say, it will be very interesting to see how this holds up to the mana!


Well one thing I can guarantee you is that the Mana will be a rather more elegant solution, and it's not often I get to say that about Mana!! :lol: ;)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
06-01-2010, 23:28
I recon this solution looks pretty good! Hannah feels somewhat differently judging by her facial expresion anyway
marco, I have been thinking about this mana, just so I know like - how big is it, my speakers will fit on it/it won't be to big for the space
how much height does it add? Bacically can I see a picture of it?

Marco
06-01-2010, 23:47
Hi Hamish,

To answer your questions:

Yes your speakers will fit on them, no I don't think they'll be too big for the space - and one level of Mana, which equates to two 'platforms' per side, (you can have more if you want and increase their isolation effect ;)) will add about 3 inches to the height of your speakers from the floor.

Here's a picture of them under my old Spendors (it's unfortunately the best I've got):

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7150/aosm06.jpg (http://img6.imageshack.us/i/aosm06.jpg/)

They're not the bigger Mana stages nearest the floor, but the ones in between those and the actual speaker stands :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
06-01-2010, 23:51
Ah yes, I have seen that photo before.. How wide are they then, just trying to visulise the space etc

Marco
07-01-2010, 00:02
They're 20" wide and 19" deep, matey :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
07-01-2010, 00:22
Coolio, cheers bud
they could provide some limitations on room layout at that size, but il cross that bridge when the time comes

Marco
07-01-2010, 00:29
You can turn them the other way round, which shaves an inch off the width - anyway, we can suck it and see :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
07-01-2010, 00:47
They will fit in the room with the current layout, but not in the layout that would mean the speakers accross the room :(

Marco
07-01-2010, 01:50
S'up to you what you wanna do, matey - just let me know :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
07-01-2010, 12:52
I think it would be still worth a go just to see how well or other wise they do fit in the room, I is very difficult to imagine these things until you see them!
I'm looking forward to comparing them against this platfoam though as to my ear it has all but completely solved the issue! The boomyness has gone in the bass and it even seems to have corrected some of the splashyness to the treble ... I wasn't expecting that at all as I don't really see how the floor could effect treble? Maybe the extra height the tweeters are now sat at is having some effect? Anyone got any ideas on that one?

It does all sound rather tasty now!

That second track on beyond skin that I was having problems with the bass with just the lime stone in place - no problems now!

Cheers alfie! Top recomendation!!!

Dies anyone remember who that chap was that came on here with pmc fb1's sounding thin? I bet I have just had and solved his problem! I just hope he didn't end up changing his speakers!!

Steve Toy
07-01-2010, 14:28
Hamish, a week on Monday, if possible, Marco and I are gonna turn up at your gaff. I'll set up your QS Ref, Marco will set up the Mana. We'll get our heads around someof your other room/setup issues. Then we'll bugger off to Anthony's. You are welcome to join us there of course as we can drop you off on the way back.

DSJR
07-01-2010, 14:46
Who needs the SPANISH INQUISITION????? :D

The Vinyl Adventure
07-01-2010, 16:10
The 18th? That sounds fine steve, I haven't heard off steve(inspain) for a week but I gues he is busy moving stuff back to England...
Also it's my birthday on the 16th, not that I'm hinting ;)

some ferther listening has shown up that there is still some ott treble

I have just picked up (from the royal mail deliver office) some of pauls atenuators and a veriety of mark grants cables to play with ... Should provide me with some entertainment this avo!

alfie2902
07-01-2010, 17:38
I think it would be still worth a go just to see how well or other wise they do fit in the room, I is very difficult to imagine these things until you see them!
I'm looking forward to comparing them against this platfoam though as to my ear it has all but completely solved the issue! The boomyness has gone in the bass and it even seems to have corrected some of the splashyness to the treble ... I wasn't expecting that at all as I don't really see how the floor could effect treble? Maybe the extra height the tweeters are now sat at is having some effect? Anyone got any ideas on that one?

It does all sound rather tasty now!

That second track on beyond skin that I was having problems with the bass with just the lime stone in place - no problems now!

Cheers alfie! Top recomendation!!!

Dies anyone remember who that chap was that came on here with pmc fb1's sounding thin? I bet I have just had and solved his problem! I just hope he didn't end up changing his speakers!!

Hi Hamish,

Glad it helps a little mate. I found the platfoam helped a lot more than just the bass!

If you're stiil having problems with the treble you could play around with toe-in! Cable swap may help too! How many hours have you got on your new pre-amp? It may well still be running in!

But you might not like this, I sold my PMC GB1s because of splashy treble! Your new amps may just be showing up the tweeter in your PMCs. I may well be wrong & hope I am! :)

Cheers, alfie

P.S. I'll put £1 on the platfoam over the Mana! :eyebrows:

The Vinyl Adventure
07-01-2010, 18:05
Ut did sound pretty good in the last house though, I think my room is accentuating the splashyness, also These are the fb1+ with the slightly better tweeter than the fb1 so I'm pretty sure it's not that

I have just put some of pauls atenuators in at the preamplifier end from the dac and that seems to have help a touch too (not to mention the fact that I can actually listen to the hifi without it justt being loud). Got one of mark grants powe leads feeding the dac too now but as hannah is asleep I can't really turn it up to see what that's done

Themis
07-01-2010, 19:50
I hope there's not much empty space under the wooden floor... :(

The Vinyl Adventure
07-01-2010, 19:59
There is quite a lot to be fair! I'm gonna get the best out of this room if it kills me though ! It is definatley getting there now! Once Duncan has tweaked the output on the dac and I have stands in place and the speakers are facing accros the room, if it still sounds like the room is causing problems I will look a getting the floor strengthened or moving the system to another room! I am confident though, what with the progress I have made so far, that I will succeed in getting it to sound even really bloody gooder in here :)

The Grand Wazoo
07-01-2010, 20:32
Plenty of room to hide bodies then?

The Vinyl Adventure
07-01-2010, 20:41
Yep... ...

alfie2902
07-01-2010, 20:58
Ut did sound pretty good in the last house though, I think my room is accentuating the splashyness, also These are the fb1+ with the slightly better tweeter than the fb1 so I'm pretty sure it's not that

I have just put some of pauls atenuators in at the preamplifier end from the dac and that seems to have help a touch too (not to mention the fact that I can actually listen to the hifi without it justt being loud). Got one of mark grants powe leads feeding the dac too now but as hannah is asleep I can't really turn it up to see what that's done

ahh Sorry Hamish I've just noticed that you use the FB1+ They did upgrade the tweeter in the + mods. Mine were older GB1s & I've not heard the + versions so forget what I said! Sorry mate.

I would play around with placement & toe-in. Just small movements sometimes make all the difference!

Good luck.

Cheers, alfie

The Vinyl Adventure
07-01-2010, 21:12
No probs buddy,
you are right though about moving the speakers and toeing in etc! Especially with this bay window, I need to wait til tomo to put a bit of volume through then to see how my mark grant power cable and atenuators have helped I think as low volume listening sounded like something positive had happend

Primalsea
07-01-2010, 22:37
I glad you're happy with the attenuators mate. I was worried if you got them or not as I didn't here anything.

Looks like you're going the full hog with the hifi in the new house, I hope it works out!

The Vinyl Adventure
07-01-2010, 22:44
Soz buddy I meant to pm, am indeed happy, cheers!
yeah, might as well get it so I'm happy with it now I have invested in it

The Vinyl Adventure
09-01-2010, 20:14
So, I bit more listening and I think that the high level going from the dac into the pre might have been the cause of the shrill/splashy treble. Pauls atenuators have stopped it happening but there is now a slightly more layer back feeling to the sound, the soundstage has shrunk a touch and gone a bit 2 dimentional if that makes sence! I guess this is what you were saying before Paul, they might not be the best solution within my system... They have definatly helped, and pointed me in the right direction though, I am guessing that duncan's tweak to get the output of the dac down will be the ultimate solution! It is good to hear the system sounding more akin to what it did in the old now though, even if it is a touch more restrained in it's presentation!

DSJR
09-01-2010, 20:30
See what can be done with the DAC internally to bring the output down. I'm sure this can be done without padding down with resistors. Are there any similar but lower gain valves about????

Just an idea..

The Vinyl Adventure
09-01-2010, 20:46
I spok to Duncan the other day on the advice of marco and he tells me there is a solution to lower the output, not sure what but I guess Duncan knows best when it comes to his dac, so happy days! Stuck a bit of radiohead ok computer on now for some jangly noises that were a bit problematic before and they def arnt now so I think I'm on the right track!

I tell you what though since I have been here alfie's advice of platfoam has been the biggest winner, I'm seriously impressed! And to be fair I really can't see how the mana can be better... But I guess we shall see :)

I am enjoying being OCD (to referance another thread) with my hifi at the mo, I think hannah thinks I have gone a bit nuts, an she is def bored of my insesant comentary! She curses this place for me being on it so much, but secretly I think she's happy I have you lot to babble at... I used to drive her mad with my camera's (before I drove my self mad and got back into this milarky)

Primalsea
09-01-2010, 21:12
They just don't understand mate, do they. A woman tried to join here once. The Old Trout found out not to mess with man's stuff, yeah!!!

I'm glad the attenuators has given you a stop gap solution. I was worried as I knew they weren't optimal for your system and that you would think badly of them. If the DAC cant be modified without padding the output stage you could look into having a buffer stage pre volume pot on your preamp. This will allow you to use the attenuators without any of the fall downs you have at the moment.

I've got a similar problem with my preamp juts having too much gain. However its fairly unique design doesn't allow for gain to be reduced without ballsing up what its good at which is transparency and a extremely low output impedance, the damn thing can actually drive speakers!!

The Vinyl Adventure
09-01-2010, 21:22
I certainly don't think bad of them, I bought them on the understanding they wouldn't be perfect, and to be fair they are doing a better job than I expected... It's funny actually they have made my system sound very naim (as I know it) which isn't the worst outcome by any stretch for me! I will see what duncan says to your suggestion

Primalsea
09-01-2010, 21:38
Hi Hamish,

I forgot to mention though that adding a buffer stage to the preamp is not an easy thing to do. There are 2 companies that I know of in the UK who actually sell stand alone buffers which are, so I've heard very good. They seem completely none hifi on the surface as it would seem that you are just sticking another stage in. This is not always a good idea but when you are doing it to solve a problem it can fix things just as well as changing equipment.

The Vinyl Adventure
09-01-2010, 21:44
... Ah I miss read that before... I spoke to Anthony about this and he suggested that although the pre won't mind having that level put into it if it is a problem it is best solved at the dac end as aposed to the pre end?
I'm pretty certain based on what Duncan has said about lowering the output him self that it should be fine once he has done that. He said that the mod was an improvent in sound quality as well as technical spec...
Cheers for your input though Paul I will perhaps sk Duncan and Anthony what they think (if they don't see the thread)

anthonyTD
09-01-2010, 21:44
I certainly don't think bad of them, I bought them on the understanding they wouldn't be perfect, and to be fair they are doing a better job than I expected... It's funny actually they have made my system sound very naim (as I know it) which isn't the worst outcome by any stretch for me! I will see what duncan says to your suggestion
hi hamish,
the input of your preamplifier already has a buffer, also the overload margine on the grounded grid circuit in there is huge so there are no worries of the dac overloading the preamp unless duncs dac is putting out over 20v RMS!:eyebrows:
anyway i havent read most of this thread so lets go through what you think may be wrong...
A...

Primalsea
09-01-2010, 21:58
Hi Hamish,

I was only suggesting it as an option if the DAC could not be modified in the end. Modifying the DACs output is by far the best option IMO. Also as Anthony has just said your preamp has a buffer stage already (I presume before the volume pot). I was unaware of this when I posted.

Interesting though as the attenuators always seem to do good things with amps that have fully buffered volume pots.:scratch:

anthonyTD
09-01-2010, 22:19
Hi Hamish,

I was only suggesting it as an option if the DAC could not be modified in the end. Modifying the DACs output is by far the best option IMO. Also as Anthony has just said your preamp has a buffer stage already (I presume before the volume pot). I was unaware of this when I posted.

Interesting though as the attenuators always seem to do good things with amps that have fully buffered volume pots.:scratch:
hi paul,
in the grounded grid design i did for hamish the buffer stage is after the switched attenuator, this is done to keep the circuit directly coupled and also to keep the signal path as short as posible ie; with the minimum amount of devices and components [caps] in the signal path. unfortunetly in this design it all depends on how good at driving cables etc the driver stage in the source equipment is, in this instance thats the DAC.
in the fet preamps i do, the switched attenuators go between stages but the circuit is still directly coupled.
A...

Jonboy
10-01-2010, 00:27
I am enjoying being OCD (to referance another thread) with my hifi at the mo, I think hannah thinks I have gone a bit nuts, an she is def bored of my insesant comentary! She curses this place for me being on it so much)


i like me being a bit of a nutter and my Mrs feels the same as Hannah

Primalsea
10-01-2010, 08:54
hi paul,
in the grounded grid design i did for hamish the buffer stage is after the switched attenuator, this is done to keep the circuit directly coupled and also to keep the signal path as short as posible ie; with the minimum amount of devices and components [caps] in the signal path. unfortunetly in this design it all depends on how good at driving cables etc the driver stage in the source equipment is, in this instance thats the DAC.
in the fet preamps i do, the switched attenuators go between stages but the circuit is still directly coupled.
A...

Hi Anthony,

That makes sense now my attenuators never seem to work well if the first stage of the amp is a passive volume control:).

What do you think of the stand alone buffer stages? I know that Icon do a valve one and there was a SS one reviewed in HFW. I used to think that they were pointless and just a gimmick. I dont like the idea of just bolting on an extra stage, especially putting a valve stage on the back of something SS just to give it a "valve sound". However someone who's view I respect told me they are very useful in some situations and tend to be quite transparent. It makes some sense that they might sort some synergy problems out with amps that have a passive stage at the front of the signal end.

Themis
10-01-2010, 09:11
I have a Burson one (old model), it is quite transparent to be honest. ;)

anthonyTD
10-01-2010, 11:36
Hi Anthony,

That makes sense now my attenuators never seem to work well if the first stage of the amp is a passive volume control:).

What do you think of the stand alone buffer stages? I know that Icon do a valve one and there was a SS one reviewed in HFW. I used to think that they were pointless and just a gimmick. I dont like the idea of just bolting on an extra stage, especially putting a valve stage on the back of something SS just to give it a "valve sound". However someone who's view I respect told me they are very useful in some situations and tend to be quite transparent. It makes some sense that they might sort some synergy problems out with amps that have a passive stage at the front of the signal end.
hi paul,
properly designed buffers [valve or solid state] where needed are a god send in certain circumstances, [driving low loads and long cables etc] however IMHO modern source equipment ie; CD players, DAC's media streamers etc with properly designed output stages should have no problems driving a fixed input impedance of for eg, 10 to 50k with a one meter cable in between, if they cant then they are of little use as the timing and frequency transfer will be all over the place, even if the source in question has a healthy output voltage its voltage amplitude may not be equal at all frequencies, hence timing and smearing issues can occur.
as stated before, unlike conventional signal circuitry the grounded grid has huge input overload margins, the one hamish has would need in excess of 20v to overload it, and dont get me wrong i understand why some equipment would respond quite well to using attenuation in the front end as you have desribed but as you have deduced from my explanation this is not one of those cases. in this case i fear something else is a foot here, we may have a better understanding of whats happening in hamish's system after the marco boy and his trusty side kick [just kidding boys] steve the toy has visited and put the world to right!:eyebrows::)
A...

The Vinyl Adventure
10-01-2010, 13:03
I dunno what you think them numpties are gonna find out that I haven't already told ya :lolsign:

...should be interesting to get some fresh eyes on the situation to be fair, I have certainly got as far as I can without spending any more money etc so it will be good to see what they think

The Vinyl Adventure
10-01-2010, 13:05
steve & marco - The stand is stuck in France at the moment but steve thinks he should have it by Thursday so fingers crossed we should be able to get it in time!

Marco
10-01-2010, 20:33
Nice one, dood :)

Remind me again of what date we agreed to come down? :cool:

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
10-01-2010, 20:44
Steve said the 18th?

Marco
10-01-2010, 20:57
That's cool. I'll just pop it in my diary now :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
10-01-2010, 21:07
I said to steve earlier today there might not be 100% g'tee the the rack will be here, steve(inspain) tells me he is expecting it in the uk Thursday so that obviously give us only a couple of days to arange it getting to me .. should be ok though!
Steve is going to bring his dac for me to have a go with, I didn't think about it until after speaking to him but with that wired it will give a better indication of the overall system once the dac output voltage is lowered ... He also thinks I might be better of with a similar dac as aposed to the copper one... But I think I'm still goin to get Duncan to lower the voltage of the copper one before doing anything like that.