View Full Version : Upgrade Suggestions Please
Hi Everyone,
It's been a while since I posted as I've been enjoying my music system rather than thinking of changing anything. But I am now ready to consider upgrading and would like to hear your suggestions as to what I should be looking to improve. Some parts of my system are very old (tt and speakers) - but not necessarily the weak points I suspect, though I do wonder if recent technological advancements means these parts of the system are lagging behind in sound quality. I have up to £2k to spend, but any suggestions for improvements with a more modest outlay would also be appreciated. My initial thoughts are to change the speakers, and the ATC SM19s are beginning to tempt me! My local dealer has suggested the Roksan Blak amp, which is a little above my budget, and another dealer suggested upgrading the interconnects. I listen mainly to vinyl and cds, and occasionally to HD downloads played on a laptop through the rDAC.
My current systems consists of:
Turntable Thorens TD160 with Linn Basik arm and Nagaoka MP200 Cartridge
Phono Stage Trichord Dino Mk3 (2016)
CD Marantz CD6003
DAC Arcam rDAC (2011)
DAB Tuner Cambridge Audio Azur 650T
Amp Roksan K2 (2015)
Speakers Spendor SP1 (006230/1 1988)
Speaker Cable Atlas Equator 2.0
Inter-connects Atlas Element Integra
Thanks,
John
Have you considered buying used? You will inevitably get more for your money.
My thoughts for what they are worth
If you were going to upgrade the TT side then I'd get a better phono stage. It is shocking how much improvement that can make, more than changing the cartridge
Spendor to ATC will be a fairly big change in presentation, I would guess.
Avoid the dealer who suggested 'upgrading' the interconnects.
Arkless Electronics
04-01-2017, 18:43
The speakers would be the last thing I would change! Still one of my favourite speakers at any price after all these years...
Arm and cartridge would be my suggestion, especially the cart. Many will I know disagree with me on this but IMHO MM carts are only suitable for mid fi and should be replaced by a decent MC if serious about vinyl. Some upgrades to the TT could be effective as well (new belt, internal damping etc).
Good though the Dino is there are better phono stages available... such as the ones I make:eyebrows:
Fwiw the cdp looks the weak point from here.
farflungstar
04-01-2017, 18:50
My two penneth... Crap in - crap out. Start at the front end - moving from a mid price cart to a truly high end one brought about a greater evolution than going high end phono or arm for me, although I did upgrade the TT/Phonostage/Arm/Cart in that order.
Changing speakers has a big effect - but it depends what you're looking for - the cart and speakers are the only true transducers in a system - they both need to be right.
And sorry, but different cables can easily have as much of an affect on sound as changing amplifier - but get the rest of the equipment in the chain 98% right first.
Adey
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Arkless Electronics
04-01-2017, 18:57
To confuse the op further I say cables have zero effect....
farflungstar
04-01-2017, 19:10
Ok I'm not getting into this one. To the OP - upgrade your system to a point where inductance, capacitance, resistance, insulation of cables makes a clearly audible difference then experiment with cables.
Adey
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To confuse the op further I say cables have zero effect....
...unless the cables are engineered to have super high capacitance, and the amp can't handle it.
IMHO I would just go for some Van Damme HiFi UP-LCOFC, 2.5mm, and be done with it. This cable just disappears with no LCR weirdness and has super low grain boundaries, something a bit more esoteric, but worthwhile to look into. There is no current scientific reason as to why this impacts sound, but then I think our current knowledge in general scratches the surface of what is out there.
Don't worry though dark matter cables are forthcoming.
Ok I'm not getting into this one. To the OP - upgrade your system to a point where inductance, capacitance, resistance, insulation of cables makes a clearly audible difference then experiment with cables.
Adey
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In principle I agree. Cables are just the icing on the cake and not a means to significantly change the sound unless deliberately engineered to.
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farflungstar
04-01-2017, 19:42
To return to the op's original question. If it was me... I'd spend about 1,500 on an excellent ex dem/second hand cart and 500 on an excellent second hand arm. If the cart doesn't do it's job and retrieve as much info (spatiality, nuance, timbre etc) then you ain't got it period. There are some excellent second hand arms out there, and if you can lay your hands on something like an Allearts Boron or a higher Zyx model then you're on the journey. But it depends what you feel is missing.... resolution, musicality....
Adey
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Seems surprising.. Your system reads as Good.. to me. I wouldn't readily dick with it, IF mine.
Entirely possible to open a can 'o worms that could well resonate for some time before it's eventually sorted/rebalanced
Perhaps think about a simple recap to your Spendors?
Caps can time out.. eventually, as the only possible advise I can suggest.
Arkless Electronics
04-01-2017, 20:24
To get back to the beginning here I reckon the op needs to consider whether digital or vinyl are his priority...
If going to the lengths suggested in the last post re arm and cart I would say a better TT at maybe £1000+ would also be in order as would a £2000 or so phono stage.... which then begs the question of if the Roksan integrated is up to the job and, at this level, even the Spendor SP1's... but I would change them last personally.
So budget as well as digital or vinyl priority please OP? :)
Arkless Electronics
04-01-2017, 20:27
Ah I meant the post by Farflungstar when I said "the last post".
The spendors can't readily be upgraded as they already have top quality polypropylenes fitted...
farflungstar
04-01-2017, 20:37
I agree a better Turntable would be in order if going the better cart/arm route - but the limitations of the TT are generally not of the same magnitude as a low quality arm/cart though they are more apparent the higher up the food chain you go with arm and cart. The TT would be the next logical step.
I also agree a decision needs to be made regarding vinyl or digital and then funds channelled appropriately.
It really does depend what the OP feels is missing. Upping the front end will reveal limitations with the phonostage, amp, and speakers, so an upgrade path is inevitable.
If the OP just wants to freshen up the sound then a moderately priced mid range cart and a better phono stage is in order.
We need more info...
Adey
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hughandella
04-01-2017, 21:17
If the focus is going to be digital I'd snap up the Audiologic DAC advertised o here today
I'm wary of buying used. I'm not able to fix things myself, so don't want to rely on repairs. Also, it's difficult to gauge the quality of used stuff when there's such a variety of opinions re the what's good and not.
I'm wary of buying used. I'm not able to fix things myself, so don't want to rely on repairs. Also, it's difficult to gauge the quality of used stuff when there's such a variety of opinions re the what's good and not.
Good way to get quality at reasonable prices, especially buying on forums from enthousiasts rather than folk who are just looking for quick sell and run. Established members are a safe bet.
Even new stuff goes south
Interesting Martin. The phono stage was a big investment as I've added the better power unit since buying the Trichord. I also hadn't considered the phono amp as a weakness, but maybe that's because of the cost of it relative to the rest of the system. It was impossible to audition phono stages - I considered a Heed, but I liked the idea of the Trichords upgrade path, and I got it direct from the very helpful manufacturer.
Thanks Jez. Glad to hear from other Spendor fans, but their 'neutrality' doesn't appear to be fashionable now. Changing the speakers is probably the lazy option, and my interest in doing this maybe because I've used Spendors since 1975 (I used BC1s for many years, and still have them), so I was thinking something from this century would be exciting. They do sound beautiful though, and it would be a wrench. I'm interested in upgrading the tt, possibly for similar reasons having bought the TD160 in 1973/4. I had the tt rebuilt a couple of years ago - new arm and suspension, so I think it's probably as good as it can be without changing the arm again. Adapting the tt to take the Linn arm was a tricky job according to the technician, so I'm reluctant to ask him to undo his work! The Linn arm was a massive improvement on the original arm, which had given up the ghost after more than 40 years of service. I added the Nagaoka at the same time and I really like its precision and detail. I am serious about vinyl and did consider a MC, but was put off by the expense involved in changing the whole cartridge rather than replacing the stylus when worn. I replace the stylus about every 6 months as I play a lot of records, so the running costs of a MC would be considerable. Are there any MC cartridges with a replacement stylus?
I agree Andrew, but played through the rDAC it sounds pretty good. I originally bought the entry level Cyrus cdp, which sounded great but it was fussy about what it would play. It went back to Cyrus a couple of times, but they couldn't make it reliably play cds I had burned, and I hadn't done my research about it not playing hybrid cds. I will eventually change the cdp, or maybe change the DAC and use the old one with the TV.
I agree Andrew, but played through the rDAC it sounds pretty good. I originally bought the entry level Cyrus cdp, which sounded great but it was fussy about what it would play. It went back to Cyrus a couple of times, but they couldn't make it reliably play cds I had burned, and I hadn't done my research about it not playing hybrid cds. I will eventually change the cdp, or maybe change the DAC and use the old one with the TV.
Is that the right way around Adey - expensive cart and cheaper arm? As I mentioned to Jez, it was tricky fitting the Linn arm as the deck had to be cut for it to fit. I'll have a word with the technician and ask if he's up for it though. Never heard of Allearts or Zyx, but will have a look at what's available. I'm envisaging venturing into new levels of hi fi quality here Adey, my current set up being far ahead of anything I've had before and to my ears it therefore sounds very musical with plenty of detail, hence my problem about what direction to go. Having indulged myself with assembling the system I think I'm hooked on making improvements, and staying with the same is making me restless!
Are inductance, capacitance, resistance and insulation technical specs for speaker cables and interconnects?
I know Danilo, I do love the current set-up but I'm in the lucky position of being able to indulge myself! I wouldn't get rid of anything though before I was certain I had made improvements.
Wires have grown into a Religious topic amongst Audio Weenies.
Well established over the last couple of Decades .. so an unwinnable arguement ( Pin heads and number of Angels inhabiting )
That said:
Speaker wires have ONLY one significant attribute: Resistance...affected by length or gauge (10 Ga being adequate overkill in a Normal residential run ).
All else is arguably Dogma ;)
Interconnects are susceptible to all manner of influences. Capacitance being the biggest one.
Again shorter is always better, Although Coax types are a known troublemaker.
Only useful suggestion; protect your Wallet.
Ok If pushed I'd say playing vinyl gives me more pleasure. A really good tt set-up excites me more than any cd set up ever has. Cds sound much of a muchness to me I'm afraid, but I'm probably missing something as most of my cash has gone into the vinyl set up, but I listen to a lot of cds for convenience, so I guess I'd like to make improvements to both, but vinyl first.
farflungstar
05-01-2017, 20:02
Only resistance makes a difference? Hence the Townsend isoldas blowing up amps... Resistance, no, capacitance yes - of course it affects them and sound....
And to the OP about putting an expensive cart on a cheaper arm - in my experience it can work. I put my 3 grand Allaerts on my (back then) Audio Technica AT1100 bought second hand for 350£ and it was both revelatory and sublime.
Just my 2 cents.
Adey
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The Nagaoka MP200 cost around 300 quid, which I thought was firmly in the mid range category, but I suppose it's relative, but, as other posts have noted, going too high in one area causes deficiencies in others. So any thoughts on price range of arms/cartridge/tt that would improve the system without rendering the speakers and amp weak?
Arkless Electronics
05-01-2017, 20:26
Cables etc are a source of many a cyclical argument.... Which I'm sure we don't want to repeat so I'll leave my input on the matter thus...
Most people believe them to have an effect on the sound, ranging from n'th degree to big differences...
Not everyone agrees though. I*, and a significant minority of others, believe them to have no real effect on sound beyond those fairly rare cases in which the inductance, resistance and capacitance actually come into play in any meaningful way at audio frequencies. High capacitance speaker cable being an exception in that certain amplifiers (all solid state) which have not been properly designed to be unconditionally stable can be sent into ultrasonic oscillation and may blow up....
* I believe I am sort of required by "the management" to put a disclaimer along the lines of "just because I'm an Electronic Engineer with decades of experience in designing hi fi equipment, as well as being an audiophile, doesn't mean you should listen to anything I say on the subject of cables as I am a heretic and blasphemer" Other opinions are available and YMMV :D
Ali Tait
05-01-2017, 20:46
ZYX carts are very good. Also consider a Mission 774 arm. A good one can be had for 300 quid.
walpurgis
05-01-2017, 20:48
ZYX carts are very good. Also consider a Mission 774 arm. A good one can be had for 300 quid.
Yeah. Lovely combination!
Thanks for the recommendation Neil. The Van Dammes arrived this morning and I'm burning them in on my second system and they have lifted the sound significantly over the QEDs. in clarity, separation and tone. Amazing. Only paid 35 quid and if they sing so sweetly in my main system I'll be verging on the ecstatic! If they don't I'll enjoy them in the 2nd system and look at new arm and cart for my main upgrade.
Dynamics
24-02-2017, 20:55
Yes I think speakers. Atc or pmc perhaps. I'm loving my twenty5 23s which are awesome, I think the 21 or 22 would be great.
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