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shane
27-04-2008, 11:57
Discovered by ed on Audio Talk.

If this is what computers do for hifi, then thanks, but no thanks...

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/17777619/the_death_of_high_fidelity

Filterlab
27-04-2008, 11:59
No, that's what MP3 does for hi-fi, computers can do better than a lot of other media types, trust me. :)

Marco
27-04-2008, 12:40
What a great link, Shane! Thanks for that. I've saved it for future reference :)

I totally agree with everything that's said in the article - MP3 is total shit; there's no other word for it, but like Rob says, not all computer audio is like that.

There is definitely some good aspects about it, like streaming lossless files via a high quality media server and DAC. I've heard this and it has the potential to better ANY CD player and get as close to vinyl as possible. Music delivered that way captures the emotional impact of analogue.

However, I agree entirely with the article in that the *recording quality* of most albums produced these days is absolutely shocking for the reasons specified, and confirms what I was writing on the forum recently about this subject.

Anyone who thinks that there's nothing wrong with recording quality these days should have a listen to CDs marked "AAD" from the 80s and compare the recording quality against most produced today. I promise you'll get a shock! I've demonstrated this effect to teenage members of my wife's family and they can't believe how different discs sound when they've been mastered on analogue up until the final stage, and when I play them well recorded vinyl, especially stuff from the 50s and 60s, they just sit there gob-smacked!

So are the youth of today undiscerning music lovers who value solely 'quantity before quality'? Not in my experience. The problem is they don't often get access to decent systems to hear their music played unless their parents are into hi-fi and have set-ups with a good quality CDP and T/T, or they've embraced what I call the performance side of computer audio, i.e. the streaming of lossless files as described above. But when shown how good their tunes can sound away from plastic iPods and MP3 players they're usually highly receptive and readily appreciate the difference.

For me, though, the pathos of the article as expressed by the leading musicians quoted, in terms of what digital misses with music, is poignant and succinctly summarised in the last section:


To an average listener, a wide dynamic range creates a sense of spaciousness and makes it easier to pick out individual instruments — as you can hear on recent albums such as Dylan's Modern Times and Norah Jones' Not Too Late. "When people have the courage and the vision to do a record that way, it sets them apart," says Joe Boyd, who produced albums by Richard Thompson and R.E.M.'s Fables of the Reconstruction. "It sounds warm, it sounds three-dimensional, it sounds different. Analog sound to me is more emotionally affecting."

Hear, hear! :smoking:

That's the ‘magic’ vinyl has over any digital medium, and something which our ex-friends Ashley and JC would have argued against until the cows came home!

Marco.

Marco
27-04-2008, 13:14
I've borrowed this comment from a chap on the WD forum, where I'm currently involved in a discussion about the Denon DL-103 cartridge - but somehow we got to mentioning MP3 players, etc:


Unlike the modern high end, sharp, teeth grinding forensic detail delivery the Ipod is voiced to sound "nice" it is a safe balance and can sound quite pleasant with a high enough bit rate. Strangely though they always sound vile with the supplied earbuds.

The compresion systems lose the deep bass and decent high frequency extension, and then it relies on the average partially deaf human ear not noticing musical information being thrown out when louder notes mask quieter instruments. It is all very clever but it is not a high fidelity of reproduction. At best at a low bitrate it can be voiced to sound nice. Lossless audio really can be very good.


I 100% agree with this summary, and will comment more later! This is how I would expect ADM9s to sound with an iPod at the helm.

Marco.

Steve Toy
27-04-2008, 13:48
Ashley's idea of musical nirvana (with the excuses for noise outside) was something flat, 2D and truncated. But then that is the Accurate Truth, the Whole Truth and anything more is distortion-borne embellishment.:confused: :baa:

Marco
27-04-2008, 15:01
It's ok Steve we can all pop in and see Ashley and JC at the next hi-fi show where AVI are exhibiting. I'll be making a point of it. I'm dying to say "hello" and hear how wonderful ADM9s are, as I'm sure are many people from other forums ;)

With that, though, we should refrain from mentioning the terrible duo as they have no right of reply.

Marco.

leo
27-04-2008, 15:50
I've borrowed this comment from a chap on the WD forum, where I'm currently involved in a discussion about the Denon DL-103 cartridge - but somehow we got to mentioning MP3 players, etc:



I 100% agree with this summary, and will comment more later! This is how I would expect ADM9s to sound with an iPod at the helm.

Marco.

That sums up well what I heard at the Bristol show, problem for them is that not all of us are deaf old farts

Marco
27-04-2008, 16:00
Too true, mate. I don't think they were using an iPod, though.

Marco

leo
27-04-2008, 16:26
Too true, mate. I don't think they were using an iPod, though.

Marco

It was a laptop, going by the sound quality it sounded like MP3 to my ears

Marco
27-04-2008, 16:28
LOL. It'll have been one of their beloved Mac Books...

Was it really *that* bad, Leo?

Marco.

leo
27-04-2008, 16:57
LOL. It'll have been one of their beloved Mac Books...

Was it really *that* bad, Leo?

Marco.

Its rare for me to shit on anybodys products but to me it was not close to the sort of quality I'm used to tbh

If this product was advertised to replace pc speakers etc then I'd say its a decent product but when something like this is hyped up and claimed to beat full sized top quality hi-fi systems I expect it to deliver the goods and to back up those claims, unfortunately to my ears at least it didn't come close.

Shows are not ideal but it does give you a taste of what a product has to offer, I actually would have brought the ADM9's if it impressed me as I'm currently searching for some standmount based speakers

Filterlab
27-04-2008, 17:09
...However, I agree entirely with the article in that the *recording quality* of most albums produced these days is absolutely shocking for the reasons specified, and confirms what I was writing on the forum recently about this subject....

Oh yes, agree 100%. Some are truly abysmal these days, however a few are occasionally dazzling.

Mr. C
27-04-2008, 18:18
I didn't realise you posted here Leo :-).
Still loving the ubiquitous double crown sound, well its not all bad!
How is the re-clocking business going so far? I stumbled across your website a few weeks back, but can not seem to find the link, can you help me out here Leo
Thanks Tony

Marco
27-04-2008, 18:27
LOL. Tony, how did his previous 69 posts pass you by? :lolsign:

Yes, the TDA 1541 is indeed for the most discerning of listeners. Leo's a man of class! :respect:

Marco.

Mr. C
27-04-2008, 18:30
Marco,

I do not spend that much time on here surprisingly.
Leo is one of the few people that talks sense, if his taste in dac chips is a little dodgy lol

Marco
27-04-2008, 18:33
LOL, and yes Leo does certainly talk sense.

We would like to see you spend more time on here so feel free to visit as often as you wish. I'm sure Steve will be ready very soon to write a glowing report on the Puresound and Bel canto :)

Marco.

jimdgoulding
27-04-2008, 18:37
AVI’s market for their new line is just beginning to emerge. My daughter hasn’t bought a CD in two years and has no friends with turntables. BTW, I bought her a pair of Audioengine 2’s month before last for her computer. That little two way speaker of Ashley’s is probably quite good in ways we all might recognize and appreciate but all that talk about digital’s superiority is a turn off for guys like us. He might do well to market the speakers separately without all the onboard stuff other than being self powered to you and me. One other thing that might make it tough to sell as an all-in-one package is that when people begin to acquire money, they just naturally seem to become more esoteric in their tastes. And those small speakers with the DAC and preamp included are getting pretty expensive. At the price, guys can indulge themselves with separates. Ashley may find that they will continue to do so. I imagine that they will be more successful in the video market in the here and now. And I would recommend that they mass market. Even hire a firm that knows how to get across to people and stimulate the desired responses (unlike what they have done here). The best create markets for untested products all the time.

Steve Toy
27-04-2008, 19:57
Excellent post Jim.

Colinx
27-04-2008, 20:13
Part of the problem is that a large part of the population have only really heard MP3 (low bitrate at that) on some bloody portable PMP thing. I am not sure about the age or family you lot have around, I'm mid 50's with two mid 20's sons, plus assorted mates girlfriends etc. My system is long way from being esoteric, my choice, it chucks music out the way I want to hear it, but the surprise for my off springs mates is the way it does it. The CD player (saturn) will play MP3's etc from disc, (The way it does it goes a long way to helping me understand some of what ashley and his sidekick where on about but thats for a sober day) As I have the lads about, I have access to their CD's so if I have a houseful of the ''kids'' I play their CD's, and the presentation stops them, and they realise what they are missing, and that is with modern CD's with woeful mastering. As a party piece, play a CD full of low bitrate MP3's then the CD. they do hear the differences, then play something mastered and recorded properly and eye's open and ears prick up, even with music thats not them. Well not straight off any way. They hear what they can listen to, and are surprised at how little it can cost, even new. I think my local dealer must owe me for the number of apollo's, Brio's and R3's he has sold.

We unfortunately don't help, some of them have heard my system and looked on the net, and found the stupid cable wars etc etc and been put off. Places like this could help, if we put forum suggested budget systems together as guidance. Can you imagine looking for help on a system, your first probably, thinking £1500 is a big stack of money, and it is compared to the current high street offerings, and finding people bitching off about £500 wire's. People are interested in good quality music replay, they just seldom have the opportunity to hear it.

jimdgoulding
27-04-2008, 22:38
Oh, that's food for thought! Might make for a popular topic. Personally, I imagine I could spend $200 for a meter of interconnect but just don't feel the necessity to spend more. Value is part of the fun, too, wouldn't you agree?

I personally can't vouch for the following but it got my attention (from the most recent copy of The Audiophile Voice): "Five other so-called audiophiles and I, who have systems that retail for more than $35,000 (make that very much more) are using a newly discovered speaker cable at the low, low list price of $35.99 for FIFTY FEET! Currently Parts Express is selling this reel for $21.00!!! No, I won't tell you who these "dedicated listeners" are except to say that you'd recognize their names and disbelief would set in. It's part #100-020 in the current Parts Express catalog. They call it 14awg Dayton High Definition Speaker Wire. Go ahead! I dare you! Give it a try."

Reprinted without the permission of David Nemzer. The exclamation marks are his.

griffo104
28-04-2008, 14:18
A very interesting thread. Is high fidelity dead ?
Was it ever alive in the first place to the man on the street ? Personally I think not, the ipod has replaced the Currys 'midi' system, it hasn't replaced the turntable nor the cd for people who want the best sound they can afford.

I'm a subscriber to the Music Matter Blue note releases. Stunning reissues of a range of Blue Note records, pressed at 45rpm, in superb gatefolds with extra photos from the sessions. Two arrived last week and these are just stunning, the best records I've heard outside of original Deccas from the early 60's. Silent records, with the music just bounding out at you, dynamic and full of good Jazz swing.

This from a technology that has been around for how many decades, and yet still they manage to raise the bar on quality even though we keep hearing all this computer stuff is taking over.

Ok these pressings aren't cheap but thanks to the current £ to $ ratio I paid $70 for two records plus postage from the US - and these are the best upgrade you can get for a hifi, quality music with care taken to ensure they are the best.

People who care for music will still spend the extra on turntables and cd players, still pay for the better pressing and rematsers on cd for the simple reason they allow the music to communicate better.

High fidelity dead ? thankfully yes it is :)

Marco
28-04-2008, 15:07
People who care for music will still spend the extra on turntables and cd players, still pay for the better pressing and rematsers on cd for the simple reason they allow the music to communicate better.


Nice one, Griffo. Count me in. High quality vinyl rules! There's nothing to touch it.

I don't own an iPod or an MP3 player - and never will. They're an abomination, sonically, and simply not hi-fi, certainly in a portable format. There's a standard of sound reproduction that I will not go below, and the above plastic abominations give me ear bleed when used with those horrid 'earbud' things.

When I'm travelling I use my trusty 1985 Sony Walkman Pro with TDK SA chrome tapes I've made of music recorded from my system at home via a Nakamichi CR-7. Result? Superlative analogue sound quality which is a million miles from the 'angry bees in your ear' low-fi sonic row of an iPod or MP3 player! And as for being serious sources in a hi-end system? Don't make me laugh!! :lol:

Marco.

griffo104
28-04-2008, 15:37
Nice one, Griffo. Count me in. High quality vinyl rules! There's nothing to touch it.

I don't own an iPod or an MP3 player - and never will. They're an abomination, sonically, and simply not hi-fi, certainly in a portable format. There's a standard of sound reproduction that I will not go below, and the above plastic abominations give me ear bleed when used with those horrid 'earbud' things.

When I'm travelling I use my trusty 1985 Sony Walkman Pro with TDK SA chrome tapes I've made of music recorded from my system at home via a Nakamichi CR-7. Result? Superlative analogue sound quality which is a million miles from the 'angry bees in your ear' low-fi sonic row of an iPod or MP3 player! And as for being serious sources in a hi-end system? Don't make me laugh!! :lol:

Marco.


I do use an MP3 player, an old Creative one, simply for listening late at night, tunes recorded at the hughest sample rate, 320kb, for the unit. I use 'proper' Sennheiser headphones and it sounds ok. slap it through a hifi though and it really just doesn't work and even using them on my second budget system, the Sony DVD/SACD player playing normal cds easily sees it off for coherence, dynamic, flow and rythmic integrity. And I'm no fan of cd.

People seem to forget that the man on the street never got into hifi, they still haven't but those who take their music seriously will still make the effort. I'm not talking about some of the serious high end BS, you really don't need to spend silly money to put a quality hifi togther and I think that's what puts so many people off.

If the mags simplified and featured more articles on quality affordable gear then we would see more enjoy decent sounding musical systems.

Wadia doing an ipod dock ? Gimme a break please, garbage in, garbage out, as they used say in Glasgow.

Marco
29-04-2008, 08:43
I totally agree. But it would be interesting to hear it (I think they're only £350) just to see if the combination has any audiophile potential and how the sound compares to a top-notch Red Book CDP.

I believe Krell also do a similar iPod dock.

Marco.

Steve Toy
29-04-2008, 09:31
I heard the Krell docking system at the Manchester show. It was not good. I'll give you this analogy: imagine a picture taken with a 110 film being printed onto poster sized paper. It looks overblown and grainy. Put an Ipod Nano through a full-blown hi-fi rig and the sonic equivalent is what you get.