View Full Version : Waiting for the Truth
farflungstar
20-12-2016, 22:53
Hailed by Arthur Salvatore as the most significant HiFi component currently available, my own The Truth linestage has been languishing with customs for almost 3 weeks. Numerous phonecalls have led nowhere and it seems I won't have my Christmas present at the one time of year when i actually have a holiday and lots of time to listen. Am I p*ssed off? Too bloody right.
Adey
Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk
Maybe a ? over its value, or the use of photo cells
I doubt if customs know it uses photocells, but they may query the price of something which looks to have a DIY build.
farflungstar
20-12-2016, 23:38
I don't think they'll know it uses photocells - they may have an issue with the price but after speaking with them they can't offer an explanation and have said they'll get back to me with a solution (to a problem they don't understand).
The solution is simple, tell me how much and deliver the bloody thing.
I've had a custom wooden sleeve made for it that matches the Vida.
Grrrrrr - no Santa.
Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk
walpurgis
20-12-2016, 23:44
I've had all sorts items sent from the other side of the world and not had real issues, apart from the odd delay for duty payment before items were released for delivery. I did have a batch or two of LDR's sent without bother.
Who are they using for the shipping Adrian?
farflungstar
21-12-2016, 09:02
Unfortunately the correos, not a courier.
Adey
Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk
Lawrence001
21-12-2016, 10:44
Maybe if there were wires dangling out of the package it's been destroyed in a controlled explosion but they haven't got the heart to tell you??
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farflungstar
25-12-2016, 16:52
Still waiting - Santa says I've been a bad boy this last year lol.
Adey
Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk
Maybe there's something in the saying "The Truth hurts". Hope you get it sorted and that it will prove worth the wait.
Yeah, santa's a judgemental mo fo
twice i had to contact parcelforce, who are kind of the post office, re a missing parcel from abroad. they said they had contacted me about customs charges but hadnt. they eventually admitted their software was faulty and had been for some time but it had not been fixed. If I hadnt I might not have got it. I had to go to other side of edinburgh to pay them too and pick it up myself. Might be worth the contacting of the company delivering
farflungstar
25-12-2016, 18:35
The same happened with this. When they finally sent me the paperwork last Wednesday I had until Saturday before they returned it to the US.
I sent the paperwork by 24hour express courier which was delivered to Customs Thursday evening. Whether or not they opened the paperwork and processed it before the Saturday cut off I have no idea but doubt it - monkeys have a hard time opening envelopes!
I will check tomorrow but am not expecting good news.
My other Christmas presents likewise haven't arrived, a Clear Audio Weight Watcher from Germany - DHL say it arrived in Madrid 1st December - Spain says it's still in the air (seriously). The seller, from whom I've bought about 700€ of albums won't accept it's lost and is forcing me to wait and go through the PayPal claims process. Won't buy from him again.
Likewise 2 albums from Germany - though only a week late, well when they arrive!
I did at least receive my isolda cables but then no correos/monkey involvement!
Adey
Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk
farflungstar
04-01-2017, 23:55
Still waiting. Apparently I have a new name Marcos Jimenez Gonzales - funny, that's not what's on my birth certificate...
My lawyer is now involved though I doubt chimpanzees understand the law.
Adey
Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk
Jac Hawk
05-01-2017, 21:39
I remember when I lived in Spain I became fluent in shall we say colourful metaphors 1st, i remember waiting for the guy to turn up from Ono to sort out the cable TV, waited all day for him, he did eventually turn up 2 weeks later, it seems in Spain the further south you go the less importance they place on time.
Hope it turnes up soon Adey, i feel your pain brother.
farflungstar
05-01-2017, 22:23
Let's not go there. Today 2 calls - me first - the problem is I'm not British apparently, I'm Spanish and my surname is Gonzalez. WTF
Also the person who signed for the paperwork at their office (delivered by their own courier) doesn't exist, he left last year. WTF
Call 2 by my lawyer - your client hasn't submitted paperwork and must complete it online.
Unfortunately the webpage doesn't work - and as explained to them twice the glitch is that they have put an invalid character in my address which cannot be changed by me. So message says error invalid character ' in address. Their response - no, I'm imagining the error message, even though they've been sent screengrabs by my lawyer.
That's today!
I really don't think I should voice my opinion of spanish civil servants here....
Adey
Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk
farflungstar
11-02-2017, 10:21
After 3 months of waiting and 3 trips across the Atlantic thanks to the monkeys at Spanish customs the Truth is finally in my system.
Will post some pics later but this thing sure won't win any beauty competition and I've instructed my chippie to make it a nice wooden sleeve to match the Vida and ordered a laser etched aluminium fascia.
Right now it's being fed by the lovely Allaerts cart and replaces the Slagle Autoformer Volume control.
I'll give a full review after the weekend and after more hours of vinyl. But first impressions...
The Slagle is recognised as being sonically transparent and better than S&B or any other transformer based volume - it's the only 'passive' to be awarded Class A - well it now has a rival.
After a few hours listening I was struck by the increased high frequency resolution. Spaciousness by the bucket load. Soundstage opened up and increased in depth in a way I hadn't expected - layering and separation right at the farthest and deepest corners of the stage were incredibly well resolved. Very very nice.
But I also detected a lack of warmth in the mid - im not sure whether this is just highlighting a colouration in the Slagle or not and will experiment more over the weekend.
So, initial impressions... Looks like something a kid would knock up in the garage, sounds cleaner than even the mighty Slagles.
Adey
In perpetual pursuit.
brian2957
11-02-2017, 11:47
I've been following this thread with interest Adey . I'm glad you have it a last :) Can we have a picture of this much travelled and elusive ugly duckling before you '' beautify '' it . Hope it's doing the business otherwise :D
farflungstar
11-02-2017, 12:16
Will snap a few pics this afternoon. The difference in ultra resolution of fine details was the first thing that struck me as I was working on something and not in my usual listening seat. It was very apparent. When I finally sat down I realised the soundstage had changed profoundly. Listening to FSOL Environments 2 details previously tizzy and unfocused became distinct percussive sounds suspended in a very deep soundstage that just hadn't been there before even with the Slagle. Tonight I'll spin some jazz and female vocals for a better more rounded impression.
I have to say that on the face of it the $1000 price tag seems ridiculously high for something in a $25 enclosure and plastic knobs - but whatever the technology inside (it isn't LDR, but uses light in a different way) for transparency at least, it beats the current champ. And that, I guess, is worth the hefty price tag. Put it into a beautifully styled case like the Vida and it could retail at 4 times the price - so I guess that makes it a bargain, ugly or not.
Will update.
In perpetual pursuit.
farflungstar
11-02-2017, 20:42
Trying to take a photo of a black box on a black rack with a black background is impossible lol but I'll try in the morning when there's more light.
Okay - so I've been spinning FSOL again (just because it's like hearing them for the first time with the Truth), some Yello, Malia (superb singer) and Krall.
In a word - astonishing, with a slight caveat.
The amount of detail this thing let's through is indeed astonishing - things I never knew existed have suddenly appeared in tracks im very familiar with. And it isn't subtle - it's every single note.... which has had me really scratching my head and asking myself how - considering the level of the cart I've been living with (Allaerts) and the Vida phonostage feeding the Slagle which I've never heard beaten in terms of resolution, is it possible?
Im stumped as to how to be honest. It's as though a graphic Equaliser has been applied to lift out each frequency band and a cushion of air placed between each note. Weird and truly amazing.
To quantify the change id put it up there with changing from my old diy phono stage (50£) to the Longdog Audio I bought from Tom (2k retail). Yes, that much of a difference.
Vocal lines are utterly intelligible no matter view deep in the mix, Krall's lips can be heard forming each syllable, each time she wets them sightly - it's utterly bizarre that it was there and I haven't heard it until now - and again this isn't the odd moment, it's there always.
Double bass has a new dimension, the sound of fingertips gliding over strings and not merely the thwack and pluck of strings, is now present.
Electronica is a revelation in terms of detail and spatial trickery. With synthesised, just as with natural, instruments finding new definition from the first leading edge to the decay.
So what's the caveat, the catch? It's changed the character of my system a little - from a slightly soft focus (though I never realised it) to an ultra resolution system that has lost a little warmth. But it's marginal and just slightly different. This is easily remedied I think by swapping over to the fleshier Miyajima or by swapping interconnects which are currently Cardas Neutral Reference. I might try DNM as they have a slight warmth.
The Hashimoto SUT is due next week (customs again....) And this might also change the flavour a little as it's known to be a little warm.
Don't believe that valves are intrinsically warm and veiled, they don't have to be - mine certainly aren't!
Personally I think that alongside the Allaerts this is the best HiFi purchase I've made in quite a while.
The name seems justified - the Truth...... more like Voodoo!
Adey
In perpetual pursuit.
brian2957
11-02-2017, 20:48
Nice write up Adey , worth waiting for then....
farflungstar
11-02-2017, 21:06
Worth waiting for yes.... But unsettling.
In perpetual pursuit.
brian2957
11-02-2017, 21:27
Oh you'll get used to it , then back to ....In perpetual pursuit again :D
farflungstar
11-02-2017, 21:47
Hahahah - I don't think I'll be looking to change it - I don't think you could get a more transparent way of controlling volume. I've had the Vida and the allaerts for a couple years without getting itchy feet. I don't think I'd ever change the Vida or get rid of the cart. Likewise the sp10. I might change my arm in the future and I'd like another amp to do standby duty. Speaker cables will be staying as well. Interconnects are next on the agenda....
In perpetual pursuit.
brian2957
11-02-2017, 22:01
Hahahah - I don't think I'll be looking to change it - I don't think you could get a more transparent way of controlling volume. I've had the Vida and the allaerts for a couple years without getting itchy feet. I don't think I'd ever change the Vida or get rid of the cart. Likewise the sp10. I might change my arm in the future and I'd like another amp to do standby duty. Speaker cables will be staying as well. Interconnects are next on the agenda....
In perpetual pursuit.
OK :popcorn: :D
Sherwood
11-02-2017, 22:03
You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk
:steam:
RothwellAudio
11-02-2017, 22:15
This is from the website:
It has an input impedance too high to measure, output impedance is a couple ohms, bandwidth is to 60Mhz, slew rate is a couple hundred V/microsecond.
There are no capacitors or resistors in the signal path. There is no potentiometer in the signal path.
It uses photo cells to control the volume. It does not use optocouplers.
These are bold and intriguing claims. I'd love to take a peak inside.
farflungstar
11-02-2017, 22:41
I have to admit that I'm tempted to take a peek in there but prefer not to know. For all I know there are fairies in there making magic. I've been waiting since November for it to arrive and over that time have been told by the maker to hang in there because it would be worth it in a way I couldn't imagine and to be honest my expectations had waned by the time it finally arrived. But he was right. Whatever is going on inside it has zero effect on the signal, zero. Arthur Salvatore gave it his bolero test, meaning against a direct connection and concluded they were so close that a direct connection was redundant. It's quirky to use - volume is only between 9-1 o'clock but it has good control over that short travel which earlier models didn't. The balance is also unconventional. But it works - it not only removes a faint veil, it lifts a bloody quilt!
In perpetual pursuit.
Its a box that should never be opened or the light will https://sofiawellman.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Open-Pandoras-Box-by-Sofia-Wellman.jpg
like pandora...........
farflungstar
12-02-2017, 12:49
In situ, complete with fingerprints...
http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w483/farflungstar/IMG_20170212_134523_189_zps252kmymk.jpg
A very anonymous looking box of trickery... Rosewood sleeve should be ready by Tuesday and laser etched fascia in a week or so - have some beautiful brown mottled Bakelite knobs that will be used. Yes - I like my HiFi to look nice.
In perpetual pursuit.
Sure it will look a lot better for it. No keen on these boxes that not only show every touch but its difficult to remove them too. Wood cheeks are great, ive few things with them
farflungstar
12-02-2017, 12:58
The intention is for it to mimic the Vida, only a little bigger. It's strange how I feel about it - there's something 'unbelievable' about it - I can't explain it. If I was in the UK is def bring it to some bake-offs for others to experience.
In perpetual pursuit.
farflungstar
13-02-2017, 09:41
Update. After a long weekend of spinning vinyl of all genres I still cannot form a concrete opinion. Yes it has stripped away all veils, yes the detail is glorious - but I think I've lost a little musicality (colouration?) and there's a slight hardness in the mid that wasn't there before.
Now, as there isn't a single component in the signal path I have to assume that by lifting the veils a slight colouration has been highlighted somewhere else in the chain. To confuse the matter more im also having to use a 1m Cardas Neutral Reference from Vida to Truth as my Cardas Golden Presence is too short (will be up for sale shortly) at 0.5m. So the new cable might be adding to the sight hardness.
Of course it might also be highlighting a slight loading issues or even an SRA issue - it's that forensic.
It's bizarre that something sonically 'invisible' has changed the character of my system. scratch
In perpetual pursuit.
Have you tried testing with digital, see if the same result happens?
Also what does this thing cost? I have searched all over for a price, no-one seems to mention it so I am guessing it is a lot.
Update. After a long weekend of spinning vinyl of all genres I still cannot form a concrete opinion. Yes it has stripped away all veils, yes the detail is glorious - but I think I've lost a little musicality (colouration?) and there's a slight hardness in the mid that wasn't there before.
Now, as there isn't a single component in the signal path I have to assume that by lifting the veils a slight colouration has been highlighted somewhere else in the chain. To confuse the matter more im also having to use a 1m Cardas Neutral Reference from Vida to Truth as my Cardas Golden Presence is too short (will be up for sale shortly) at 0.5m. So the new cable might be adding to the sight hardness.
Of course it might also be highlighting a slight loading issues or even an SRA issue - it's that forensic.
It's bizarre that something sonically 'invisible' has changed the character of my system. scratch
In perpetual pursuit.
Now youve got used to changes, it will affect how you hear things i guess.. you,ll have to develop a new way of appreciating music. Totally sonically clean
There shouldn't be any hardness, though. Hardness in the sound is distortion that shouldn't be there.
RothwellAudio
13-02-2017, 10:49
Have you tried testing with digital, see if the same result happens?
Also what does this thing cost? I have searched all over for a price, no-one seems to mention it so I am guessing it is a lot.
It says $975 here
http://www.thehornshoppe.com/the_truth_pre_amp.html
To be honest, those specs seem a bit odd. 60MHz bandwidth? But there's no mention of voltage gain, max voltage swing, THD etc.
As I mentioned earlier, I would love to see inside this thing.
It says $975 here
http://www.thehornshoppe.com/the_truth_pre_amp.html
To be honest, those specs seem a bit odd. 60MHz bandwidth? But there's no mention of voltage gain, max voltage swing, THD etc.
As I mentioned earlier, I would love to see inside this thing.
Cheer. Read all that before and missed it. So with shipping and customs about a grand sterling, maybe a bit less. Not an unacceptable price, a bit much for me to take a punt on unheard, though.
RothwellAudio
13-02-2017, 11:02
There shouldn't be any hardness, though. Hardness in the sound is distortion that shouldn't be there.
I agree. And as for "stripping away veils", surely the only veils that it could strip away are the ones that were imposed by the previous linestage. It can't strip away veils from elsewhere in the system.
True, but if it is more transparent it could be showing up a problem that was previously masked, as Adrian suggested.
Spectral Morn
13-02-2017, 11:11
True, but if it is more transparent it could be showing up a problem that was previously masked, as Adrian suggested.
Indeed, or being new needs settling in time.
If there is nothing in the signal path, whats to settle in, bar the listeners ears.?
Spectral Morn
13-02-2017, 11:16
If there is nothing in the signal path, whats to settle in, bar the listeners ears.?
I would still think cabling, solder etc, but as there is virtually nothing on this design I have no idea really if it would benefit from run in. I personally think passives can cause issues and spotlighting and tonal thinness are among those issues.
Done a search and the lack of anything out there regarding this, even the makers single page is woefully inadequate in my opinion. According to a thread on Audio Karma lack of gain can be an issue :scratch:
And according to the maker, using it, it gets better.
Spectral Morn
13-02-2017, 11:33
'Spotlighting'?
Yes like video edge definition on a TV, details in music stick out like the contrast is way too high. Like someone is shining a spotlight on them.
Yes like video edge definition on a TV, details in music stick out like the contrast is way too high. Like someone is shining a spotlight on them.
Again this could be the case of increased transparency showing up colourations further up the chain. There's no reason a passive would be the cause of this, it should be more faithful to the source, at least in theory. Not had this issue with any passive I have tried.
RothwellAudio
13-02-2017, 11:45
I personally think passives can cause issues and spotlighting and tonal thinness are among those issues.
Are you thinking this is a passive preamp? As far as I'm aware it is an active preamp.
It needs mains power to work but if there is nothing in the signal path it can't be adding any gain, which makes it passive, doesn't it?
Spectral Morn
13-02-2017, 12:00
Are you thinking this is a passive preamp? As far as I'm aware it is an active preamp.
As I can't see what it is exactly I was taking others cue regarding what it was.
RothwellAudio
13-02-2017, 12:00
It needs mains power to work but if there is nothing in the signal path it can't be adding any gain, which makes it passive, doesn't it?
No, having no voltage gain doesn't make it passive. Buffers are active and have current gain.
As an aside, transformers can have voltage gain, but they are passive.
RothwellAudio
13-02-2017, 12:02
BTW, the maker doesn't claim there's nothing in the signal path, he claims there are no resistors or capacitors in the signal path.
I wonder what his definition of a signal path is.
No, having no voltage gain doesn't make it passive. Buffers are active and have current gain.
As an aside, transformers can have voltage gain, but they are passive.
Makes sense. Thanks for explaining.
farflungstar
13-02-2017, 12:39
The hardness s very slight and only in the mid but this is something my ears are very very sensitive to. I have wondered if the buffer stages are causing this or if it's something that has always been there but was softened by the Slagles or the lack of buffering. Experimentation is in order.
As for looking inside I'll open it up and take some photos when I'm fitting the new sleeve in a few days.....
Adey
In perpetual pursuit.
farflungstar
15-02-2017, 23:06
From the maker (magician?)...
it is an active device but has no gain. The specs are correct...with the cells shorted the bandwidth is indeed DC to 63 Mhz or so. It has nothing in the signal path IN SERIES with the signal except 2 video buffers and 2 photocells. It is not as simple as it appears and does not operate in a way that most would consider "normal". It does in fact sound better as it plays each time after about 15 minutes even though it is always on, I have no idea why. There is nothing else like it being made as far as I know. The balance control actually balances the channels against each other and will never be in it's center of rotation. It requires no matched parts and the balance does not shift with volume change.
In perpetual pursuit.
RothwellAudio
16-02-2017, 10:12
It has nothing in the signal path IN SERIES with the signal except 2 video buffers and 2 photocells.
So nothing as long as you count two video buffers and two photocells as nothing? Bear in mind that a video buffer is a chip containing dozens of transistors.
Anyway, anything non-normal piques my interest and I am very curious.
farflungstar
16-02-2017, 10:23
Ed, the maker, has joined the forum so I'm sure will answer any questions. I'm still evaluating the Truth - which is weird cos usually I either like or hate the effect of a new component - with this one I'm still unsure - I just can't pin anything down about it other than it lets through everything unhindered. Ed has even warned me that stylus chatter can be heard very clearly with the Truth, and this might account for why I feel something isn't quite right. Experimentation is big in my house at the moment!
In perpetual pursuit.
RothwellAudio
16-02-2017, 11:16
I doubt he will want to give too much information away if he considers the circuit to be unique and better than anything else.
Hopefully he will consider putting a loaner out on rotation. I would love to give it a go. If it can beat my P90SA I will buy it.
Remember he is not representing his company, if he has one as he is not trade here, so cant behave in that manner
farflungstar
16-02-2017, 12:32
Having dealt a lot with Ed I can say he's a good guy - if his objective was promotion he'd follow the rules.
In perpetual pursuit.
Remember he is not representing his company, if he has one as he is not trade here, so cant behave in that manner
Yes, he would need a trade account if he wants to do that. That's up to him of course. It may be he is not bothered. From the perspective of potential European purchasers there are no statutory returns on items mail ordered from the USA, and a thousand pounds is too much to spend on a blind punt (for me, anyway).
RothwellAudio
16-02-2017, 13:35
This is complete guesswork based on nothing more than the sketchy information given on the website and in previous posts, but the circuit maybe uses a linear optocoupler to eliminate the need for a conventional pot volume control. Here's some information on one such optocoupler:
https://www.rapidonline.com/pdf/75-0236_v1.pdf
As you can see from the application notes, the number of circuit possibilities is enormous - but claims of "nothing in the signal path" would appear to be wholly inappropriate, especially since there are two video buffers in the circuit as well. Having said that, the idea of having nothing in the signal path doesn't particularly excite me anyway. Also, The Truth might not use anything like the optocouplers in the link. Like I said, I'm just guessing.
ed schilling
16-02-2017, 14:33
Hi Rothwell, I built my first electronics back in 1969. I'm well aware of what is in a chip :) I also just like to make it simple for folks that are not technical. Of course there has to be something in the circuit or there would be no circuit! I really don't see the need to go all the way with...."there are no additional capacitors, resistors or potentiometers in series with the circuit, only the ones that make the circuit inside of the buffer and 2 photocells" See how silly that sounds and is no more descriptive! :)
Thanks for the comments guys! I'll do my best to just answer questions if need be!
Ed
ed schilling
16-02-2017, 14:44
Rothwell, not even a close guess. There is nothing there similar. I never even looked at a data sheet or ways to use the cells. The Truth does not use optocouplers and yes, I did try them. No, they are not suited for audio in spite of the fact some use them. There are valid reasons I say this but I'm not going to tell because that would be unkind to those that use them....they already know the problems and work around them as best they can. The circuit is trickier than it seems and does not actually work like most guess it would. It is NOT built like a line stage that simply replaced the pot. with cells! I built the first one 6 1/2 years ago. Arthur brought it to the world and I'll always be grateful for that. We had never met or spoken before he got ahold of one. Having anything in the path other than what is there would wreck the slew rate (200V/microsecond) at least, I think....so it is not bandwidth limited and is direct coupled.
Ed
***** Rothwell, the 2 buffers and cells are the circuit! The rest of the stuff is to make it work and none of it is in series with the circuit but technically speaking the complete circuit is just those 4 bits. It's nothing like anything you have seen, I'm sure. You'll need to put on your thinking cap to figure out exactly how it operates and then the trick is how to make it do the magic. Knowing how and building it are not the same. Theory is one thing putting it into practice is another.
I think I've beat this dead horse enough. I have never said anything intentionally misleading but I'm not going to tell how to build one either! BTW....the values and type of cells are important. I went through 20 different values and types to get the "right one'. The good news is they don't have part numbers on them and they can not be guessed as to which value and brand they are by measuring them :)
RothwellAudio
16-02-2017, 14:55
Sorry, I should have realised it does not use optocouplers. Your website says "It uses photo cells to control the volume. It does not use optocouplers" but for some reason I remembered it as being the other way round, ie using optocouplers rather than photo cells. :doh:
Anyway, I understand you prefering to keep the circuit a secret - I prefer not to give away too many of my secrets too :)
RothwellAudio
16-02-2017, 16:44
Come on Jez, you're just jealous 'cos your stuff doesn't have a 60MHz bandwidth :lol:
I'm not far off - just another 59.9MHz to go :D
farflungstar
16-02-2017, 16:51
I think that's a bit strong jez. And I have an almost perfect passive, and compared to the the Truth it is very veiled. The Truth cannot remix a track and add instruments that were not there before. As I have already said I'm trying to understand the mechanism and why it's so astonishing. As the only member, that I know of who has actually heard it or owns it im qualified to comment on its abilities if not the technology. But to trash a decent guys approach that really does deliver on its promises when 99% of the usual SS shite actually doesn't is a bit churlish.
In perpetual pursuit.
RothwellAudio
16-02-2017, 16:53
Rothwell, the 2 buffers and cells are the circuit! The rest of the stuff is to make it work and none of it is in series with the circuit but technically speaking the complete circuit is just those 4 bits.
Ok, so the obvious ways to accomplish that are
1) attenuate the signal using LDRs to form a potential divider, then follow with a buffer.
2) put the LDRs in the feedback loop to alter the gain and control the volume. This would presumably involve using the opamp in inverting mode.
ed schilling
16-02-2017, 17:37
Hey guys, y'all have me LOL. The bandwidth is what it is, so is the slew rate and the infinite input impedance as well as the 3 ohm output impedance and I'm sorry if that is just too hard to believe and it's not my fault nothing else comes close, it is what it is........and yes, some video buffers are actually well known for their use in audio. I could care less who believes what :), it is what it is, and there is nothing else like it unless someone has stolen my idea. It should be noted that I do refund purchase price regardless of where you live and I give a 1010 year warranty which BTW is 990 years longer than Bryston. An additional 1000 yrs, can be purchased for only $199 (highly recommended). :)
Please, if this post is too much, please just delete it. I truly am only trying to explain things.
Ed
As you say Ed, it is what it is. Ive an open mind...If folk dont wish to believe, then fair enough, but please folks, no insults..thanks
Spectral Morn
16-02-2017, 17:44
Oh I could make it so it does in some cases... not that it would add anything to the party;) Of course video buffers are so renowned for their audio qualities...:lol:
Jez you are being rude, knock it off. Ask questions, be probing but don't use words like load of bollocks and a snarky tone as you did above.
This is interesting stuff and I am open minded enough to be curious about what appears to be a new approach.
Spectral Morn
16-02-2017, 17:46
As you say Ed, it is what it is. Ive an open mind...If folk dont wish to believe, then fair enough, but please folks, no insults..thanks
+ 1
By the very nature of the subject we are going to be as at loggerheads as any two people can be... We are diametric opposites on the hi fi circle. IMO SET's don't even reach the minimum standards to be considered hi fi for example... and yet you use one to judge the limits of "perfection"...
A good passive is not in the slightest veiled. As yours uses auto transformers it is not a particularly good one IMO. If this so called truth unit sounds vastly different then it's adding some form of distortion or colouration which you like. You are asking us to believe that this unit improves upon the perfection of a transformerless passive switched attenuator and I for one ain't buying it.
.
Well, no. He's saying it improves on transformer passive. But so, in theory, should a good stepped attenuator. Plus there could be other variables caused by the rest of the system.
Jez, remember what we discussed before about you staying away from 'controversial threads', liable to get you into trouble? Well, this is one such thread [and you should've known that from the beginning and did the becessary] - 'nuff said! ;)
In future, please stick to contributing *only* to the types of threads we discussed. Ta :)
Marco.
farflungstar
16-02-2017, 19:58
As I said earlier I have this unit and yes - without a doubt it beats my Slagle autoformers for resolution - and not in a subtle way.
In perpetual pursuit.
Sounds like a great piece of kit, Adrian :)
Marco.
farflungstar
16-02-2017, 20:51
As I've said I'm still evaluating it - I totally understand the scepticism and thats partly my own problem too - I sit and think how is this possible, what is the trick. But the difference between the Slagle and the truth is like going from an At95 to a VDH Colibri.
In perpetual pursuit.
farflungstar
16-02-2017, 21:11
Jez, two things, I would have valued your subjective input, but not derision - in truth you sound like every other manufacturer who trashes other manufacturers ideas - and do yourself and the benefit you might be for uneducated people like me a disservice. I'm not going to get personal as that would mean stooping down to a level I prefer not to. However im old enough and wise enough to know how to judge the character of a person from the words that either flow from or are spat out of their mouth.
I don't give a shit whether you believe what the maker claims or not, or whether you think I have wet dreams over my own sonic delusions - I'm in a much happier place than you will ever be in your square box.
I have no affiliation with Ed other than a customer - and I have made it quite clear that I also question what my ears are telling me.
Have you ever wondered why it is that some guys just go on churning out a box of caps and resistors in thier garage ad infinitum whilst the odd one makes it big. Could it be that they think outside of the box? Isn't that how you got to have a PC, a mobile phone etc. Or should we have stuck with the abacus.
Some people are afraid of change and of what they don't know - so ridicule it. Those long in the tooth usually recognise this quite easily.
As I said, it's a shame we couldn't have had rational, respectful input from someone with your knowledge. Pity.
it was so "out there" as to be a subjectivists wet dream, and my input was not welcome...
There you are then... When you see something you consider as "so out there as to be a subjectivists wet dream", then stay away in the first place and leave them to it. Better that than causing ire, by making comments that aren't welcome, and then afterwards having to delete them ;)
The bottom line here, Jez, and what it always boils down to in these types of discussions, is this:
As much as your input is as valid (or sometimes more valid) than those whom you're challenging or criticising, there will almost certainly *never* be consensus.
The fact is, no amount of you 'laying down the facts', as it were (often rather rudely), is liable to change the opinion of your 'opponent', formed in most cases from their extensive listening experience, and indeed will only cause umbrage and annoyance, so your desire to inform or educate will simply end in a circular argument/fallouts, and have been completely fruitless.
Let people believe what they want to believe, and leave them to their experiences. It's *that* simple, mate...
Therefore, best avoid such threads and concentrate instead on others, the majority of which where your input will be appreciated and where you can offer real help! :cool:
Marco.
Jez, two things, I would have valued your subjective input, but not derision...
Precisely. Derision can *never* be justified, as it's just plain rude, and we simply won't allow it here.
Any well-adjusted and intelligent individual can put across their counter-argument (state technical facts or whatever) without deriding/ridiculing or demeaning an opposing view - and most importantly the person behind it. Behave and be nice towards others, at ALL times, and show tolerance towards those you disagree with, however vehemently, or you won't be here.
It's as simple as that :)
Marco.
farflungstar
16-02-2017, 21:41
Hang on Marco - I would have welcomed jez's input about why there might be such a difference between it and the autoformers, which although someone said were not so good, are accepted by many as better than transformer, and the Slagles are recognised as superb. I was hoping he might have had some ideas about the buffering perhaps accounting for the difference to satisfy my own questions about the truths performance.
Let me say this - there is no distortion. There is air and space around each note on well recorded material. Unknown percussive lines appear. Backing singers appear and are intelligible. Diana Kralls lips forming each wet syllable are very evident. None of this was there before. And I'm using one of the best carts, phonostages available. This isn't my imagination.
In perpetual pursuit.
Absolutely, Adrian. I'm not disputing any of that. My point was simply about derision, and I agree that Jez's earlier responses/comments in this thread came across that way. So, I'm stating, to make it abundantly clear to everyone, that *no-one* on this forum will be allowed to get away with deriding others, simply because they don't agree with what they're saying.
Derision causes division - and *that* I simply won't have! :nono:
I insist that the vibe and atmosphere on AoS always remains friendly and respectful, above all else, certainly well ahead in preference to egotistical points-scoring or the desire to preach and always be 'right'.
You're also bang on here:
Some people are afraid of change and of what they don't know - so ridicule it. Those long in the tooth usually recognise this quite easily.
Too right!! ;)
Marco.
ed schilling
16-02-2017, 22:27
Hey guys, it's all good. I realize that it's not easy for folks to actually believe a fellow could be telling the "truth" and that fact would want to make them challenge him. The specs are real, a 50K square wave superimposed on the output looks like a single trace. It really will do 60Mhz with the cells shorted. I did that 6 years ago and just stopped. I'm not upset or could care less if those smarter than me are skeptical. It means nothing to me. I only want to answer questions as best I can and correct wrong assumptions. Nothing more, nothing less. If there is another line stage with a 6 trillion ohm input impedance and a 3 ohm output impedance being made I'd like to know about it and I certainly would say "respect"! I can not help it if it's special and I certainly do not mind skepticism but keep in mind....I'm not making it up and it is what it is!
I did NOT come here to promote anything and I'm beginning to feel queasy,,,,,,I only want accurate information about my "baby". Not a single post has bothered me in the least, I understand the skepticism. I hope my posts have been ok.
Ed
Hi Ed,
Welcome to AoS :)
I'm enjoying your contributions, and you seem to be enjoying yourself too, which is great. However, forgive me for missing the obvious, but just to be clear, are you the manufacturer of the product being discussed here?
If so, whilst I appreciate that you're not here to 'promote' anything, discussing your product and outlining its technical features, etc, is indirectly promoting your products and business, so if you wish to continue in that vein, then you will require a trade account.
Therefore, please PM me and I'll outline what is required. Cheers :cool:
Marco.
ed schilling
16-02-2017, 22:47
Thanks Marco and you are correct. I will not post anymore. I certainly do not want to break rules even if by accident or being baited :)
Hope we are "good'.
Ed
****edit...please delete all my posts if you wish......it may be the right thing to do if I've broken the rules.........I understand.
No problem, Ed. I'm fine. Hope you are, too.
It's not a case of not posting anymore or deleting anything, as for me (and I suspect also others here) your contributions are interesting and welcome. Therefore, why not simply do it right and open a trade account? You will then be able to discuss your product(s) till your heart's content, where appropriate, and very likely sell a few to our members.
A win-win in anyone's book! :)
Marco.
RothwellAudio
17-02-2017, 11:55
We all know that Jez expresses himself rather bluntly but I wouldn't want to deny him his input, even if it does ruffle a few feathers. I must admit to being sceptical about the claims made for The Truth. For example, at first there appears to be a claim for a 60MHz bandwidth, then we get this:
It really will do 60Mhz with the cells shorted.
With the cells shorted? That makes things rather different.
What I object to more than Jez's blunt language is the sight of frankly unbelievable claims about bandwidth, input impedance, absence of components, unique circuits etc. I would love to examine a specimen of The Truth and find out for myself what the truth about it really is but I'm not prepared to fork out $1000 only to discover there's more hype than substance behind it.
I suppose I'm coming at this from a different angle to most of the forum members. I grew up when there were numerous electronics hobby magazines published every month and complete circuit diagrams were explained and analyzed and other contributors were free to complement or criticise them as they saw fit. In this instance there is no such opportunity to either study a circuit diagram or measure a completed unit, so it's all a bit frustrating.
Anyway, if Farflungstar is happy with his purchase that's a good result.
Firebottle
17-02-2017, 12:30
The bandwidth and input impedance are entirely plausible figures when considering current feedback video buffers.
Some of the latest chips have in excess of 300MHz bandwidth.
RothwellAudio
17-02-2017, 12:47
The bandwidth and input impedance are entirely plausible figures when considering current feedback video buffers.
Some of the latest chips have in excess of 300MHz bandwidth.
Maybe you're right, but the bandwidth of one chip within a preamp and the bandwidth of the entire unit - input to output - aren't really the same thing. At one point we're told the bandwidth is 60MHz and the entire circuit is comprised of only photocells and video buffers, then we're told it has a 60MHz bandwidth with the photocells shorted out.
Anyway, I remain to be convinced that such a high bandwidth has any benefits for audio.
anthonyTD
17-02-2017, 13:43
+1.
We all know that Jez expresses himself rather bluntly but I wouldn't want to deny him his input, even if it does ruffle a few feathers. I must admit to being sceptical about the claims made for The Truth. For example, at first there appears to be a claim for a 60MHz bandwidth, then we get this:
With the cells shorted? That makes things rather different.
What I object to more than Jez's blunt language is the sight of frankly unbelievable claims about bandwidth, input impedance, absence of components, unique circuits etc. I would love to examine a specimen of The Truth and find out for myself what the truth about it really is but I'm not prepared to fork out $1000 only to discover there's more hype than substance behind it.
I suppose I'm coming at this from a different angle to most of the forum members. I grew up when there were numerous electronics hobby magazines published every month and complete circuit diagrams were explained and analyzed and other contributors were free to complement or criticise them as they saw fit. In this instance there is no such opportunity to either study a circuit diagram or measure a completed unit, so it's all a bit frustrating.
Anyway, if Farflungstar is happy with his purchase that's a good result.
Sometimes incompetence is useful. It helps you keep an open mind.... my motto :)
farflungstar
17-02-2017, 15:08
I've got to know Ed a little over the previous few months and he's a genuinely nice guy - a bit of a crazy genius rather like Dennis Had of Cary but definately upfront and to the point. I can understand why he doesn't want to say too much about his circuit - though like others I would love to know. He's kind of sitting pretty as unlike many other promises in the audio industry his 'baby' actually delivers over and above what he claims, no matter how that is achieved.
Manufacturers release product A in 2016 saying it is the ultimate, but then release another version in 2017 saying that is the new ultimate and so it goes on - they have to generate new revenues every year. I cannot imagine Ed will do down that path.
Hopefully someone will take a punt and share their findings alongside my own.
In perpetual pursuit.
We all know that Jez expresses himself rather bluntly but I wouldn't want to deny him his input, even if it does ruffle a few feathers.
Input is fine (and welcomed), Andrew, as long as it is expressed without derision or simultaneously demeaning the (equally valid) views of those you disagree with.
It's *that* last bit Jez struggles with, and he's been given umpteen chances to post differently, but failed, as it seems he just can't help himself respond that way when faced with something he strongly disagrees with, which is why we've come to an agreement that he simply stays away from any threads liable to get him into such trouble.
What I have to consider very carefully is the overall impact of his comments (or indeed anyone here who behaves that way), on the majority of the membership, largely made up of subjectivists, as I simply won't have the ill feeling created I've seen on other forums, which has resulted in people leaving in their droves, and subsequently turning what were once busy forums into graveyards.
AoS is, and always will be, a predominately subjectivist site, and so that's the mindset we mainly cater for. Therefore, those of an opposite mindset simply have to respect that fact and behave themselves accordingly.
Marco.
montesquieu
17-02-2017, 16:55
Reading this thread with some amusement. Not the technical discussions (which in this case I'm not that fussed about) but the subjective bits.
Adey's reactions to this are very close indeed to my feelings when I had the Music First Audio MkII TVC. I like a LOT of what passive devices do and the MFA was the best (by quite a margin) that I'd had in my system. I then tried my hardest to rationalise myself into liking EVERYTHING about it.
But at the end of the day, transparency is NOT the whole story. That loss in midrange, that unsettling hardness (however slight) .. it does cause a loss in musical feel. It took a few months to convince me but I went back to active preamps with no regrets whatsoever.
I'm actually surprised the Vida works into this device at all, as any passive/no gain device I tried it into produced plenty of 'purity' but always a diminution of fun and enjoyment. I also found that even the most coloured active preamp enhanced the fun even as the flaws stared me in the face.
Adey I think you may possibly be guilty here of what a lot of us (myself included) have done over the years - we buy the theory, the story, of what something should sound like and do in a system, then we buy the component, and then we try to focus on the good stuff and 'hear' what we are supposed to hear. Which is usually there, up to a point. Unfortunately it's seldom the whole story.
Infinitely Baffled
17-02-2017, 17:19
AoS is, and always will be, a predominately subjectivist site, and so that's the mindset we mainly cater for. Therefore, those of an opposite mindset simply have to respect that fact and behave themselves accordingly.
Marco.
This forum has a good "tone" to it, and I can quite see why you are eager to keep it that way, Marco. But don't you think it's a good thing (as well as a bit of fun) to let a cat out among the pigeons sometimes? I think we are probably all a bit "subjectivist" about our hi-fi some of the time (if only because we invest so damned much money in it!) but a good dose of facts 'n figures, straight from the shoulder, is a good thing sometimes, whether it's from Jez or from whomever else. It helps to keep a sense of perspective - call it "constructive tension" or "checks and balances" or whatever. I like it, and I think I would be more likely to drift away from a forum that had become an un-checked la-la land than from one where there was occasionally a very teeny amount of blood on the carpet.
As to how Jez actually phrases his interventions, well, yes, I suppose he is a bit robust sometimes. But all folks are different. The other techies on the forum all have their individual ways of chipping-in. Alan (FireB) is unfailingly polite, Andrew (Rothwell) is wryly sceptical. They all add a different flavour and that's good. And anyway, no-one should get hot and bothered about seeing the word "bollocks" in print - I suspect we are all big enough and ugly enough to cope.
So I think it's great that you are so concerned about making this a comfortable place for us all to be - all credit to you. But don't underestimate how resilient we are. The techies on this forum are good box-office, and it would be a shame to water it all down.
IB.
Firebottle
17-02-2017, 18:24
I've never been called 'box office' before, thanks Gary>
Infinitely Baffled
17-02-2017, 18:27
I've never been called 'box office' before, thanks Gary>
You are welcome, Alan. Star quality always shows!
Gary.
Good post, Gary, and thanks for your constructive comments. It's always nice to receive honest feedback :)
We are 99% in agreement! Regarding this bit:
I think we are probably all a bit "subjectivist" about our hi-fi some of the time (if only because we invest so damned much money in it!) but a good dose of facts 'n figures, straight from the shoulder, is a good thing sometimes, whether it's from Jez or from whomever else. It helps to keep a sense of perspective - call it "constructive tension" or "checks and balances" or whatever. I like it, and I think I would be more likely to drift away from a forum that had become an un-checked la-la land than from one where there was occasionally a very teeny amount of blood on the carpet.
Absolutely, and I have no problem with that whatsoever. If the "good dose of facts 'n figures" could be delivered without deriding or demeaning someone else's opposing views, then I'd welcome it with open arms!
There is simply no need for the latter - all it does is irk, and dilute the eruditeness of an otherwise worthy contribution. I just don't get why some folk need to ridicule or insult others simply to put their point across or state facts :scratch:
It's not an endearing trait!
Anyway, in reality Jez and I get on well and have a mutual respect, so there is no problem. I also appreciate that a bit of "blood on the carpet" is not an issue for you (nor me), but I have to consider others who aren't as 'robust'.
Trust me, it's often the silent majority on forums who 'vote with their feet' and leave, after reading comments that they consider as dismissive, rude and disrespectful. I've seen it before many times - and it happens whilst you're under the impression that everything is ok, because no-one is openly complaining, and you only realise that something is wrong when it's too late to fix it...
Anyway, let's get back on topic :cool:
Marco.
farflungstar
17-02-2017, 19:19
Tom, I get where you're coming from regarding the passive option - but although the truth has no gain it is buffered at input and output so isn't the same as a typical passive. I can only put the difference im hearing in comparison to the autoformers down to this - and I might hear the same (resolution though perhaps less transparent) with an active pre. I don't know.
I think if I'm missing something I'd say liquidity - but to be honest it's more the fact that I don't 'get' the technology that is niggling me. Contrary to some people's opinion I need to understand something, to see the 'logic' before I can believe in it. This is why I've always preferred passive - logically less components equals less colouration and so easier to trust what I hear. This might not make sense but then again I'm weird.
Yes there is a slight hardness - but im running new interconnects at the moment and so it could be those. I never, never experienced hardness with the Slagles - and the Vida drove the Slagle wonderfully (or perhaps not judging the vidas performance into the truth).
If I knew there was a silver wired transformer in the box I wouldn't be questioning it!
In perpetual pursuit.
Pieoftheday
17-02-2017, 20:03
This forum has a good "tone" to it, and I can quite see why you are eager to keep it that way, Marco. But don't you think it's a good thing (as well as a bit of fun) to let a cat out among the pigeons sometimes? I think we are probably all a bit "subjectivist" about our hi-fi some of the time (if only because we invest so damned much money in it!) but a good dose of facts 'n figures, straight from the shoulder, is a good thing sometimes, whether it's from Jez or from whomever else. It helps to keep a sense of perspective - call it "constructive tension" or "checks and balances" or whatever. I like it, and I think I would be more likely to drift away from a forum that had become an un-checked la-la land than from one where there was occasionally a very teeny amount of blood on the carpet.
As to how Jez actually phrases his interventions, well, yes, I suppose he is a bit robust sometimes. But all folks are different. The other techies on the forum all have their individual ways of chipping-in. Alan (FireB) is unfailingly polite, Andrew (Rothwell) is wryly sceptical. They all add a different flavour and that's good. And anyway, no-one should get hot and bothered about seeing the word "bollocks" in print - I suspect we are all big enough and ugly enough to cope.
So I think it's great that you are so concerned about making this a comfortable place for us all to be - all credit to you. But don't underestimate how resilient we are. The techies on this forum are good box-office, and it would be a shame to water it all down.
IB.
I have to agree,I enjoy trying to learn a bit from those in the know and I like jez's sometimes blunt attitude, he's like my mum, but not as ard:cool:. I
Of course I can see where Mods are coming from too
farflungstar
17-02-2017, 20:28
I like an objective opinion, my knowledge of electronics is crap and I try to balance the objective against the subjective. Andrew has been particularly helpful and explained a lot on another thread of mine about SUTs and I now always read his input. I don't tolerate people talking down to me in the street so certainly won't here - unfortunately I also find it difficult to keep my trap shut when provoked so perhaps share something in common where jez.
In perpetual pursuit.
montesquieu
17-02-2017, 21:19
Tom, I get where you're coming from regarding the passive option - but although the truth has no gain it is buffered at input and output so isn't the same as a typical passive. I can only put the difference im hearing in comparison to the autoformers down to this - and I might hear the same (resolution though perhaps less transparent) with an active pre. I don't know.
I think if I'm missing something I'd say liquidity - but to be honest it's more the fact that I don't 'get' the technology that is niggling me. Contrary to some people's opinion I need to understand something, to see the 'logic' before I can believe in it. This is why I've always preferred passive - logically less components equals less colouration and so easier to trust what I hear. This might not make sense but then again I'm weird.
Yes there is a slight hardness - but im running new interconnects at the moment and so it could be those. I never, never experienced hardness with the Slagles - and the Vida drove the Slagle wonderfully (or perhaps not judging the vidas performance into the truth).
If I knew there was a silver wired transformer in the box I wouldn't be questioning it!
In perpetual pursuit.
You need some bottles in there mate. You know it makes sense.
farflungstar
17-02-2017, 21:43
In a way tom you've hit the nail on the head. My system now has a solid state kind sound (accuracy?).
My hashimito SUT will be here next week (still in customs!) along with the Miyajima Kansui - I'm hoping the meaty Miyajima will flesh things out a little.
Am going to play with SRA etc tomorrow and see if that has a positive effect. The new cardas cables also need burning in.
farflungstar
17-02-2017, 22:31
Andrew... On audiokarma there are some internal pics.... I'm not a member so can't see.
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/hornshoppe-the-truth-preamp.498219/
In perpetual pursuit.
Firebottle
18-02-2017, 08:30
As this thread is generating so much interest I've posted the pictures.
There isn't much to see :doh:. Any thought anyone?
Looks like the psu regulator:
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/The%20Truth%20preamp/CIMG1714.jpg
Looks like the shape of a photocell on the bottom board?:
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/The%20Truth%20preamp/CIMG1716.jpg
TO5 can video buffers? 2 per channel?
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/The%20Truth%20preamp/CIMG1717.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/The%20Truth%20preamp/CIMG1718.jpg
Two more:
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/The%20Truth%20preamp/IMG_2166.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/The%20Truth%20preamp/IMG_2173.jpg
Firebottle
18-02-2017, 08:54
So 1 LED illuminating 2 photocells, each connected somehow between two video buffers.
Andrew?
farflungstar
18-02-2017, 09:21
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Linestages.html
This is the review that kicked the whole thing off. I spent a few hours last night rereading user opinions etc and they all (including my own) share 2 things in common - astonishment and a lack of understanding why.
The images from audio karma are from the first prototypes Ed put together, hence breadboards etc.
In perpetual pursuit.
As this thread is generating so much interest I've posted the pictures.
There isn't much to see :doh:. Any thought anyone?
Looks like the psu regulator:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?attachments/cimg1714-jpg.406460/
Looks like the shape of a photocell on the bottom board?:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?attachments/cimg1716-jpg.406461/
TO5 can video buffers? 2 per channel?
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?attachments/cimg1717-jpg.406462/
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?attachments/cimg1718-jpg.406463/
Two more:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?attachments/img_2166-jpg.419845/
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?attachments/img_2173-jpg.419846/
None of those images are showing up, daftee. Think you need to be a registered (and logged in) member of Audio Karma to view them. If you want everyone to here to see them, you'll need to copy them and post them up through something like Phototbucket.
Marco.
Firebottle
18-02-2017, 10:21
OK I will amend the post.
Tech Daftee.
As this thread is generating so much interest I've posted the pictures.
There isn't much to see :doh:. Any thought anyone?
Looks like the psu regulator:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?attachments/cimg1714-jpg.406460/
Looks like the shape of a photocell on the bottom board?:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?attachments/cimg1716-jpg.406461/
TO5 can video buffers? 2 per channel?
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?attachments/cimg1717-jpg.406462/
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?attachments/cimg1718-jpg.406463/
Two more:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?attachments/img_2166-jpg.419845/
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?attachments/img_2173-jpg.419846/
Waoh, theres so little in there its invisible :D
farflungstar
18-02-2017, 18:02
Update. After an email from the maker expressing surprise at my comments about experiencing of a slight hardness (ooer missus..)
.. and having read that this thing allows every colouration to be heard I had a bit of a brainwave over breakfast. I've been playing vinyl direct on the gunmetal tenuto mat, and I thought 'reflections...' .
So I slipped on one of Sound Damped Steel's sorbithane turntables sheets, adjusted VTA (the sheet is 1mm thick), and have been listening to mainly Sade for the last few hours. Result? No hardness, if it's there I'm not hearing it and whilst Sade sings like an angel the recording of it can sometimes fall short and be quite hard.
The wooden sleeve is now in place and also the vintage Bakelite knobs and it's already looking way better, just waiting for the new brushed aluminium fascia engraved with the name then it might look as good as it sounds - yes I like pretty things.
In perpetual pursuit.
RothwellAudio
18-02-2017, 18:20
So 1 LED illuminating 2 photocells, each connected somehow between two video buffers.
Andrew?
At a guess I would say the two photocells are one for each channel, illuminated by a single LED so that the volume of both channels is controlled by adjusting the brightness of the LED. The volume control for each channel would be a potential divider formed by one photocell and one fixed resistor. Also there's one video buffer before the volume control and one after it. At least, that's my guess.
In principle I like it. It's a buffer for high input impedance, a passive volume control (potential divider), and a buffer for low output impedance.
However, I would prefer to use a stepped attenuator instead of anything using photocells. Also, I might use a stepped attenuator of about 50k impedance and say that 50k is high enough to be a very light load for most sources - and that would mean the first buffer would be unnecessary and I'd do away with it. And I'd probably also decide that a 60MHz bandwidth has no benefit for audio so I would replace the second buffer with either an audio op-amp or a discrete transistor circuit. So you could say that if it was me I would do it totally differently, but really it's broadly the same - buffer, volume control, buffer - with the first buffer being optional.
Of course, that's all guesswork. The designer has said that the circuit isn't what you would guess, so maybe it's completely different.
farflungstar
18-02-2017, 18:40
That sounds like a great way of doing it Andrew but then it wouldn't be the same animal that I'm currently sat listening to...
In perpetual pursuit.
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Linestages.html
This is the review that kicked the whole thing off. I spent a few hours last night rereading user opinions etc and they all (including my own) share 2 things in common - astonishment and a lack of understanding why.
The images from audio karma are from the first prototypes Ed put together, hence breadboards etc.
In perpetual pursuit.
Just as well, as I would be loathed to spend $1,000 on something as poorly built as that. But as you say, other users elsewhere report the same experiences as you.
So are the 'photocells' in question, photovoltaic devices or LDRs?
Sure he said they wernt ldrs
farflungstar
18-02-2017, 19:09
The pics were from the first prototypes I believe. Now there's pretty printed circuit boards. rolleyes. If you ever looked into the innards of my Cary's I think you'd be surprised at the chaos! But they sound sublime.
What price would you pay if you knew it would be your last purchase? I'm not rich but I bought the quite expensive (for me) Vida knowing it would be my last phonostage.
I think if the maker put the truth into a beautiful enclosure no one would balk at paying 5k for it at a shop demonstration. I think they would have over the money in the first 10 seconds and feel very happy about it.
900$ for components, time and originality is a decent price in my mind - and it's only cost me 50€ to have a nice wooden sleeve made and a pretty fascia so it will look at home alongside the rest of my gear.
In perpetual pursuit.
farflungstar
18-02-2017, 19:13
Nope, not ldrs. It's totally different from Tortuga etc, it can drive any length of cable with no impedance issues (so it's claimed, though I can't vouch for it).
In perpetual pursuit.
Sure he said they weren't ldrs
Then they must be either phototransistors or a photo-voltaic device.
The pics were from the first prototypes I believe. Now there's pretty printed circuit boards. rolleyes. If you ever looked into the innards of my Cary's I think you'd be surprised at the chaos! But they sound sublime.
What price would you pay if you knew it would be your last purchase? I'm not rich but I bought the quite expensive (for me) Vida knowing it would be my last phonostage.
I think if the maker put the truth into a beautiful enclosure no one would balk at paying 5k for it at a shop demonstration. I think they would have over the money in the first 10 seconds and feel very happy about it.
900$ for components, time and originality is a decent price in my mind - and it's only cost me 50€ to have a nice wooden sleeve made and a pretty fascia so it will look at home alongside the rest of my gear.
In perpetual pursuit.
Obviously performance ought to outweigh appearance, but I'm afraid I don't like things to look like they've been knocked up in someone's garden shed, regardless of price.
I'm sure the commercial products have a much better build quality. And no, I don't think $900 is too much to pay - my current preamp cost four times that of the Truth, and my phonostage, twice the price. I also regard them as my final purchase.
farflungstar
18-02-2017, 20:26
Barry I wasnt having a pop - I wouldn't pay 900$ for what's in the pics - but most 'handmade' products often outperform similarly priced commercial products at significantly less. I was assured before buying that those were prototypes and that quality is now more in line with expectations. Short of opening it up and looking im happy to believe my ears and have faith. Considering that because of the Spanish monkeys at customs my own went through 3 trips across the Atlantic and countless hands it survived perfectly with nowt rattling about in it - so it must be sturdy on the inside.
No worries Adrian,
I am genuinely intrigued by the 'Truth' as I do admire the Miesian philosophy of "the less is more" or "keep it simple stupid" when it comes to circuit design (though since my own gear uses balanced circuitry throughout, it is not as simple as it could be).
The difficulty I have with the Truth is that as far as we understand it, it uses some form of opto-coupler in the circuit: devices not known for either their linearity or for their sample-to-sample matching, and as such, need much additional circuitry. Yet by all accounts it sounds 'better' than a resistive attenuator or a tapped transformer. :scratch:
Firebottle
18-02-2017, 21:13
Photocells are ldrs (light dependant resistors) :scratch:
Photocells are ldrs (light dependant resistors) :scratch:
The original photocells (quaintly called 'magic eyes') were vacuum tube devices using the photoelectric effect. They were thus directional (diode).
There was also the germanium OCP71 photo transistor - essentially the glass encapsulated OC71, wherein the black paint was removed from the glass envelope. They are photo-diodes, which I suppose could be loosely classed as light dependent resistors.
farflungstar
18-02-2017, 21:30
Barry I totally get it, I've been the same this last week - order of events when I received it last weekend were, first listen - gobsmacked followed by further sessions where I sat trying to figure it out rather than listen. Today, all afternoon and evening I just listened to my favourite albums - gobsmacked again. I don't know how it's done, and this thread isn't about me promoting it, but it does what those who have it says it does - vanish, completely from the chain - and in the process revealing subtleties, heck even backing vocals, percussive lines etc that simply weren't discernable before.
Like you I need to understand how something works to explain the result - but after today I'm just going to enjoy it and stop questioning it. I initially bought it because I wanted the most transparent attenuator for my system - I have it, without a doubt.
Barry I totally get it, I've been the same this last week - order of events when I received it last weekend were, first listen - gobsmacked followed by further sessions where I sat trying to figure it out rather than listen. Today, all afternoon and evening I just listened to my favourite albums - gobsmacked again. I don't know how it's done, and this thread isn't about me promoting it, but it does what those who have it says it does - vanish, completely from the chain - and in the process revealing subtleties, heck even backing vocals, percussive lines etc that simply weren't discernable before.
Like you I need to understand how something works to explain the result - but after today I'm just going to enjoy it and stop questioning it. I initially bought it because I wanted the most transparent attenuator for my system - I have it, without a doubt.
as it should be Adey
Light Dependant Resistor
19-02-2017, 07:46
Photocells are ldrs (light dependant resistors) :scratch:
But quite different to the encapsulated variety , like accepting a horse, is a cow because it has 4 legs, type of difference.
Light Dependant Resistor
19-02-2017, 07:50
Barry
I totally get it, I've been the same this last week - order of events
when I received it last weekend were, first listen - gobsmacked followed
by further sessions where I sat trying to figure it out rather than
listen. Today, all afternoon and evening I just listened to my favourite
albums - gobsmacked again. I don't know how it's done, and this thread
isn't about me promoting it, but it does what those who have it says it
does - vanish, completely from the chain - and in the process revealing
subtleties, heck even backing vocals, percussive lines etc that simply
weren't discernable before.
Like you I need to understand how something works to explain the result -
but after today I'm just going to enjoy it and stop questioning it. I
initially bought it because I wanted the most transparent attenuator for
my system - I have it, without a doubt.
Due to what I am developing , you might change your mind.
anthonyTD
19-02-2017, 11:44
My personal opinion on this particular piece of equipment, and its creator is not important in this thread, or dare I say, it would not be ethical from a trade point of view to portray it.
However; I would like to make a few points and observations as far as Audio equipment, and their associated electronics.
First of all, any device [be it semiconductor, Thermionic Valves, resistors, capacitors, switches, connectors etc] within the signal path will have an influence, however small, on the signal being passed through it, therefore; it is obviously desirable from a design point to limit the affect on the original signal by any devices, contacts, switches, connections etc within the signal path to the absolute minimum in order to achieve a desired outcome by the designer.
So, armed with this fact, any rational thinking mind should now be under no illusion that any piece of equipment is going to tell the “absolute truth” as far as the original signal it has been fed is concerned.
Now, sometimes adding more to the signal path can’ in many cases actually improve the over-all performance of not only the individual pieces of equipment, but the system as a whole, why, well, because your dealing with Audio signals, and having the need to attenuate them to achieve the desired final perceived volume of the system, therefore you then have to deal with the matching of any attenuating device to the previous, [Source] and post devices, Ie the Amplifier,,, this opens up a huge can of worms, and can be a real headache to come up with a satisfactory solution.
My own ideas on preamps have been documented elsewhere, and I was happy enough with the final results [taking into account the issues outlined above] to put some of them into production. However; I was under no illusion that any of my designs were a perfect solution to all of the issues associated with Audio signal drive and attenuation, but as I said’ I was, and still am’ very happy with the results.
This brings me back to the original reason I decided to write this post.
There are some very good engineers here, who have also produced products that they feel address the issues of attenuation, [some aspects to a lesser, or greater degree, depending on the importance deemed by each individual designer, with respect to the issues involved in attenuation] some of us promote the simplest, and most straight forward approach, and some of us feel that we needed a different approach, either way; what I am saying is; there are several routes to achieving a desired result as far as attenuating Audio signals, and overcoming the matching of pre, and post equipment’ in an attempt to obtaining an acceptable result by the designer.
Nothing is perfect!:)
farflungstar
19-02-2017, 12:22
I agree with you Anthony - there are more ways to skin a cat, but most of them leave some fur behind - this doesn't, perhaps the whiskers. I'm not alone in this conclusion, everyone who has tried it has said the same, compared to S&B, Emia etc, or the finest active linestages.
I think people have a problem with the name, it smacks as arrogant - but the truth (no pun intended) is in the listening - and it is more truthful to original source than anything yet (!) compared to it. Only a direct connection beats it (according to Salvatore), marginally. I can't test that opinion.
However, this transparency to source was demonstrated yesterday (I posted about it) when I put a sorbithane sheet on the tenutu platter mat - the difference was profound. I'd done this with the Slagles in situ on numerous occasions for various reasons and had never experienced such an obvious difference.
Now, I can imagine that if you have a problem upstream of it (glassy sounding CD maybe) the results could be brutal - and so it is not the panacea for the masses - it will not supercede every other preamp on the market. It has however, in my opinion, raised the bar for manufacturers.
In some ways im unsettled by the changes in my system - my 300b/845 SETs have suddenly found a new, pin sharp focus that is more akin to SS than lush valves. But listening yesterday each album/track had its own character, from thin to profoundly deep and rich. In that sense I think it's doing its job - passing on the information from FG tip on the Alaerts to the Vida and through the truth.
Amazing how such a simple device cab cause such confusion, furory.
Infinitely Baffled
19-02-2017, 13:50
The problem with claiming that a component - any component - is reproducing the signal more faithfully than any other, is that it implies, nay states explicitly, that you know what the original signal is meant to sound like. How can anyone? You might have a chance of knowing what a symphony orchestra sounds like, or a string quartet. But you probably don't know what the original acoustic sounded like in which it was recorded, or what microphones the sound engineer used etc. The idea of there being a true and only "original sound" is even more meaningless in the case of electronically produced music, since there is a strong argument for saying that it doesn't even have a sound until it has been processed through some kind of music playback equipment - and they all sound different, as we know! So statements to the effect that all forms of signal attenuation change the sound, except for the one that you are using, are always going to be highly contentious. How do you know, for example, that those harmonic overtones that were heard when you used pre-amp X were not meant to be there, rather than the empty space that you might experience when listening with "The Truth", or that that warmth and richness was not in fact how the choir actually sounded on that day, rather than the "tonally neutral" presentation you are getting with "The Truth". The answer is, you don't. You cannot really say that one piece of equipment is more faithful to the original signal than another (*). All you can say is that you prefer it with (or without) the harmonic overtones, or that you like (or don't like) the sound of the choir when it is rich and golden. To claim more is to make a whole raft of assumptions that in many cases could never be checked-out and verified. This is a point I have made in other threads in the past. No music reproduction system is going to sound like the "real thing". They simply produce a facsimile of a musical performance, and if you can find and put together a set-up that appeals to your ears as a music lover, then you are winning! Go for it, but don't kid yourself that it is "real".
IB
(*) Well, you can in a purely technical sense, if you subject both pieces of equipment to bench tests with oscilloscopes and what-have-you. But that is not what we are talking about here, and good measurements might not translate into enhanced listening pleasure anyway.
.
Amazing how such a simple device cab cause such confusion, furory.
Not seen much fury (Jez is always like that)....
Anyway did the mat take care of the hardness problem completely?
farflungstar
19-02-2017, 14:06
I think so, will be doing more extensive listening tonight - but heard nothing yesterday post mat change.
Regarding hardness, it's not something I can get used to and so believe it's disappeared - I have a sensitivity to upper mid hardness that makes living in a city with sirens etc a problem and will be seeing a specialist next month. If there's even a hint if it, it's unbearable, literally.
Arkless Electronics
19-02-2017, 14:09
Not seen much fury (Jez is always like that)....
Anyway did the mat take care of the hardness problem completely?
No fury here pal... I trust science, not witchcraft that's all...
farflungstar
19-02-2017, 14:13
The problem with claiming that a component - any component - is reproducing the signal more faithfully than any other, is that it implies, nay states explicitly, that you know what the original signal is meant to sound like. How can anyone? You might have a chance of knowing what a symphony orchestra sounds like, or a string quartet. But you probably don't know what the original acoustic sounded like in which it was recorded, or what microphones the sound engineer used etc. The idea of there being a true and only "original sound" is even more meaningless in the case of electronically produced music, since there is a strong argument for saying that it doesn't even have a sound until it has been processed through some kind of music playback equipment - and they all sound different, as we know! So statements to the effect that all forms of signal attenuation change the sound, except for the one that you are using, are always going to be highly contentious. How do you know, for example, that those harmonic overtones that were heard when you used pre-amp X were not meant to be there, rather than the empty space that you might experience when listening with "The Truth", or that that warmth and richness was not in fact how the choir actually sounded on that day, rather than the "tonally neutral" presentation you are getting with "The Truth". The answer is, you don't. You cannot really say that one piece of equipment is more faithful to the original signal than another (*). All you can say is that you prefer it with (or without) the harmonic overtones, or that you like (or don't like) the sound of the choir when it is rich and golden. To claim more is to make a whole raft of assumptions that in many cases could never be checked-out and verified. This is a point I have made in other threads in the past. No music reproduction system is going to sound like the "real thing". They simply produce a facsimile of a musical performance, and if you can find and put together a set-up that appeals to your ears as a music lover, then you are winning! Go for it, but don't kid yourself that it is "real".
IB
(*) Well, you can in a purely technical sense, if you subject both pieces of equipment to bench tests with oscilloscopes and what-have-you. But that is not what we are talking about here, and good measurements might not translate into enhanced listening pleasure anyway.
I agree with you, which is why I said more truthful - and not compared to the original but to a direct connection of a source component (I can't perform this so can't verify other people's testing of it which have confirmed it).
I have no reason to not believe that if a certain track has lost a little bloom that's how it is if at the same time the subtlest spatial clues are present and weren't before. I would love to be in the UK and let you guys hear it, try it. But I'm not promoting the damn thing and I'm in Spain.
farflungstar
19-02-2017, 14:17
Jez I wasnt particularly referring to you... More the general ire caused by the name of the thing. And having lived in many middle eastern countries I can assure you that witchcraft does indeed exist, but that's another story and this is about a simple box with standard components but a very clever and illogical concept.
Light Dependant Resistor
19-02-2017, 14:30
My
personal opinion on this particular piece of equipment, and its creator
is not important in this thread, or dare I say, it would not be ethical
from a trade point of view to portray it.
However; I would like to make a few points and observations as far as
Audio equipment, and their associated electronics.
First of all, any device [be it semiconductor, Thermionic Valves,
resistors, capacitors, switches, connectors etc] within the signal path
will have an influence, however small, on the signal being passed
through it, therefore; it is obviously desirable from a design point to
limit the affect on the original signal by any devices, contacts,
switches, connections etc within the signal path to the absolute minimum
in order to achieve a desired outcome by the designer.
So, armed with this fact, any rational thinking mind should now be under
no illusion that any piece of equipment is going to tell the “absolute
truth” as far as the original signal it has been fed is concerned.
Now, sometimes adding more to the signal path can’ in many cases
actually improve the over-all performance of not only the individual
pieces of equipment, but the system as a whole, why, well, because your
dealing with Audio signals, and having the need to attenuate them to
achieve the desired final perceived volume of the system, therefore you
then have to deal with the matching of any attenuating device to the
previous, [Source] and post devices, Ie the Amplifier,,, this opens up a
huge can of worms, and can be a real headache to come up with a
satisfactory solution.
My own ideas on preamps have been documented elsewhere, and I was happy
enough with the final results [taking into account the issues outlined
above] to put some of them into production. However; I was under no
illusion that any of my designs were a perfect solution to all of the
issues associated with Audio signal drive and attenuation, but as I
said’ I was, and still am’ very happy with the results.
This brings me back to the original reason I decided to write this post.
There are some very good engineers here, who have also produced products
that they feel address the issues of attenuation, [some aspects to a
lesser, or greater degree, depending on the importance deemed by each
individual designer, with respect to the issues involved in attenuation]
some of us promote the simplest, and most straight forward approach,
and some of us feel that we needed a different approach, either way;
what I am saying is; there are several routes to achieving a desired
result as far as attenuating Audio signals, and overcoming the matching
of pre, and post equipment’ in an attempt to obtaining an acceptable
result by the designer.
Nothing is perfect!:)
Hi Anthony
Define signal path please ? ... if your hesitating at all -even the smallest amount,
Welcome , yes its a vast subject.
For instance... you might be now thinking,... but does it and can it include far
more than I first thought possible ? If you are now in that dark street with a torch
shining it around trying to gather where you are or what is around you - you are right.
I partially agree with you regarding reaching the definitive, it takes extraordinary depth in electronics
ending up being an examination of the designers whole life outlook, to push the boundaries further and further
but some of us keep on doing it.
Most of us small designers are the word that this means " a person who organizes and operates a business or businesses,
taking on greater than normal financial risks in order to do so". ... the word is entrepreneur
I would invite any manufacturer who has confidence in what they do... to take the next step
selecting the very best recording they know of ... to not hesitate supplying a sample of their ware to those
musicians if they are still alive, to ask their opinion comparing to the actual master tape or device recording. As involving
the musician invites direct comparison a bit closer if not far closer to the Truth. This is exactly what I am doing.
Following the musicians appraisal, the designer would put their product into full swing only if the appraisal was positive
but if negative would ask in what areas was my product not correct. Using even more resources in their back pack
the true designer would happily set off to climb the new mountain in the far distance. Obsession Yes ... up to the aforementioned point.
Cheers / Chris
montesquieu
19-02-2017, 14:32
I agree with you Anthony - there are more ways to skin a cat, but most of them leave some fur behind - this doesn't, perhaps the whiskers. I'm not alone in this conclusion, everyone who has tried it has said the same, compared to S&B, Emia etc, or the finest active linestages.
I think people have a problem with the name, it smacks as arrogant - but the truth (no pun intended) is in the listening - and it is more truthful to original source than anything yet (!) compared to it. Only a direct connection beats it (according to Salvatore), marginally. I can't test that opinion.
However, this transparency to source was demonstrated yesterday (I posted about it) when I put a sorbithane sheet on the tenutu platter mat - the difference was profound. I'd done this with the Slagles in situ on numerous occasions for various reasons and had never experienced such an obvious difference.
Now, I can imagine that if you have a problem upstream of it (glassy sounding CD maybe) the results could be brutal - and so it is not the panacea for the masses - it will not supercede every other preamp on the market. It has however, in my opinion, raised the bar for manufacturers.
In some ways im unsettled by the changes in my system - my 300b/845 SETs have suddenly found a new, pin sharp focus that is more akin to SS than lush valves. But listening yesterday each album/track had its own character, from thin to profoundly deep and rich. In that sense I think it's doing its job - passing on the information from FG tip on the Alaerts to the Vida and through the truth.
Amazing how such a simple device cab cause such confusion, furory.
You'll need to forgive some skepticism Adey ... some of us have been through similar journeys whether with top quality passives (I had a top notch one from Hifi Collective, fancy audio note resistors etc), Eva/LDR approaches (I had the Eva II), TVCs (I had the Prometheus and later a Music First MkII, which was about 4 grand retail when it came out), or buffer solutions like the Pass B1 (which seems to be similar in intent/concept, being all about impedance matching, though obviously different in execution - I think I've had three of these in various states of boutique bits-ness), Burson SS buffers, MF, EE and other tube buffers, and assorted mixes of the above (TVCs or passives in difference sequences with tube buffers before, after and before and after). All had their good points and at different times over the last decade I have been on forums singing their praises.
However everything is a compromise and in the end despite really wanting to go this way I've never found a non-active (ie no gain) solution to work long-term for me. I really have been round the houses on this and tubes with gain for me, remains the way to go. Transparency is not and never will be the whole story. (Though at one point, I believed it was). If you are happy with it, that's fantastic, but actually nothing you are writing here is encouraging me to give it one last try - I feel I've seen the movie before, in close-up.
As for Salvatore - surely the less said the better? There's more sense talked here in a day than on his whole site.
farflungstar
19-02-2017, 14:41
Tom I agree that transparency is not the only aim - the pleasure of listening is the most important - if I wanted detail and transparency at the expense of musicality I'd be running God awful naim electronics (apologies to any naim owners).
Tom I agree that transparency is not the only aim - the pleasure of listening is the most important - if I wanted detail and transparency at the expense of musicality I'd be running God awful naim electronics (apologies to any naim owners).
Haha - it could have been worse, you might have cited Quad electronics.
Regards
Barry (a Quad enthusiast)
Think as said earlier theres many different ways of getting there. Not every way suits everyone or there would only be one manufacturer. Sure Jez would insist it be him;)
farflungstar
19-02-2017, 15:21
Maybe we need a quantum attenuator - when you listen there's sound, when you don't there isn't...
Maybe we need a quantum attenuator - when you listen there's sound, when you don't there isn't...
If it's a quantum device, the mere act of listening to it will change the sound.
farflungstar
19-02-2017, 15:26
That's my point.... Give it 10 years and it will be here.... Gain when a sensor merely looks at it...
No fury here pal... I trust science, not witchcraft that's all...
I thought you'd bowed out of this thread and were avoiding it from now on?
Give it rest, FFS, and practice what you preach.. We all know your position *loud and clear*. Any more comments like that from you on this thread or anywhere else will result in a week's holiday.
I've had enough - and you've had MORE than enough chances to comply with what's required here!
Marco.
farflungstar
19-02-2017, 19:15
It's ok Marco, science (alchemy) was once hailed as witchcraft and look where we are now - the polar opposite view.
As an update I've been listening all afternoon, Cohen Some like it Darker (holy crap what a voice), FSOL, Yello Toy, Touch, One Second.
Two things, liquidity is back! This may be for two reasons, the new Cardas golden presence interconnect between Vida and Truth has burned in some, or the Truth has burned in some.
That later option seems a little strange as with no components in the signal path surely nothing can change? But the maker and users say that it does improve with use though he doesn't understand why. I guess it might be to do with power supply. scratch.
And the second thing... I've been using the Yello albums as a reference for electronica and have used them often this last week with the truth and heard many new things compared to the Slagles.
Well, tonight there's even more! Newly defined leading edges, subtle infections in vocal backing tracks, extra texture.
I remember a review (Salvatore) saying it had the power to surprise. Yes, it does.
My journey is at an end (for linestage at any rate!)
This week the Hashimito SUT arrives... What will that bring to the mix....
anthonyTD
19-02-2017, 19:58
:thumbsup:
The problem with claiming that a component - any component - is reproducing the signal more faithfully than any other, is that it implies, nay states explicitly, that you know what the original signal is meant to sound like. How can anyone? You might have a chance of knowing what a symphony orchestra sounds like, or a string quartet. But you probably don't know what the original acoustic sounded like in which it was recorded, or what microphones the sound engineer used etc. The idea of there being a true and only "original sound" is even more meaningless in the case of electronically produced music, since there is a strong argument for saying that it doesn't even have a sound until it has been processed through some kind of music playback equipment - and they all sound different, as we know! So statements to the effect that all forms of signal attenuation change the sound, except for the one that you are using, are always going to be highly contentious. How do you know, for example, that those harmonic overtones that were heard when you used pre-amp X were not meant to be there, rather than the empty space that you might experience when listening with "The Truth", or that that warmth and richness was not in fact how the choir actually sounded on that day, rather than the "tonally neutral" presentation you are getting with "The Truth". The answer is, you don't. You cannot really say that one piece of equipment is more faithful to the original signal than another (*). All you can say is that you prefer it with (or without) the harmonic overtones, or that you like (or don't like) the sound of the choir when it is rich and golden. To claim more is to make a whole raft of assumptions that in many cases could never be checked-out and verified. This is a point I have made in other threads in the past. No music reproduction system is going to sound like the "real thing". They simply produce a facsimile of a musical performance, and if you can find and put together a set-up that appeals to your ears as a music lover, then you are winning! Go for it, but don't kid yourself that it is "real".
IB
(*) Well, you can in a purely technical sense, if you subject both pieces of equipment to bench tests with oscilloscopes and what-have-you. But that is not what we are talking about here, and good measurements might not translate into enhanced listening pleasure anyway.
RothwellAudio
19-02-2017, 20:31
Nope, not ldrs.
Those devices in the pictures sure look like LDRs to me.
Then they must be either phototransistors or a photo-voltaic device.
The maker says he uses "photocells", and also says he doesn't use optocouplers.
Anyway, those devices in the pictures sure look like LDRs to me.
...this is about a simple box with standard components but a very clever and illogical concept.
I'm still trying to work out what the clever concept is. It looks like buffer-attenuator-buffer, which is very ordinary. Ok, the attenuator uses an LDR, but that isn't new. Ok, the buffers are video buffers, but that doesn't qualify as a clever concept for me.
...I've never found a non-active (ie no gain) solution to work long-term for me.
The Truth is active. And all active linestages will give less than unity gain if you turn the volume control down a bit.
...seems a little strange as with no components in the signal path surely nothing can change?
There's loads of stuff in the signal path - a buffer, an attenuator and another buffer. Each of those buffers will contain so many active devices that you would look at a circuit diagram of its internals like this :stalks:
It's a very big world and there are so many people making audio equipment that it's extremely difficult to stand out from the crowd and get any sales at all, so I understand if someone tries to create some mystique about their unique circuit. Just take it with a pinch of salt, particularly any ideas about having nothing in the signal path.
farflungstar
19-02-2017, 20:41
With any luck this thread will have piqued somebody's interest enough to take a punt and in a month or so will be able to give their 'subjective' opinion. Then I won't feel so alone in my findings. I emailed the maker tonight and told him straight that after putting in another 7 hours listening today there was no f*cking way this was ever going back to him. I'm very very very happy right now and don't care what technology it uses, a rubber band and pixie dust, I don't care - it's just given me 7 hours of the most pleasurable listening I can remember.
Light Dependant Resistor
19-02-2017, 22:25
Those devices in the pictures sure look like LDRs to me.
The maker says he uses "photocells", and also says he doesn't use optocouplers.
Anyway, those devices in the pictures sure look like LDRs to me.
It's easy ... no more confusion / obfuscation please.
Photocells have
2 legs, because the light source an LED making up the other two legs is not integral with the photocell.
There is no attempt at encapsulation removing interference ( other than the casework ) from outside light sources
Little overview of their audio characteristics very much related to the led/ photocell distance having to be manually set
Fail to have low resistance capability, hence require buffer circuits to function in an audio circuit.
Typically find use in street lamps and checkout counters, but extraordinarily are used here in an apparent good sounding
audio device.
LDR's (also known as Audiohm - for the very reason you present ) have
4 legs
LDR's are encapsulated meaning they are impervious to outside light interference and human touch or chemical degredation over time
LDR's also precisely define the light source LED distance to the resistive element
LDR's have a audio frequency and audio characteristic optimised photocell
LDR's have well tabulated audio performance characteristics including distortion measured
with the best circuit the manufacturer could provide about 10 years ago, ( subsequently IMO, I have realised far better )
resistance being from 40 ohms NSL32SR2( S)
-60 ohms NSL32SR3 and in the other direction NSL32SR2 5 mega ohms, to 20 mega ohms NSL32SR3
the NSL32SR2(S) similar to NSL32SR2
Ed, what is the current you are running to the photocell anode ? and what is the LED forward voltage - colour
As a peace offering, my own circuits use 7.5ma
Cheers / Chris
ed schilling
20-02-2017, 06:02
Well, I was not going to post anymore to avoid breaking rules but this needs to be cleared up. Chris, your definitions are simply wrong. Please see this definition of a Photocell also known as an LDR (light dependent resistor). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoresistor The device (an LDR) is not a 4 legged device with integral LED. That is an optocoupler. It is a "light dependent resistor", 2 legs, pretty straight forward. The definition is clear as is the description.....LDR means "light dependent resistor"...it does NOT mean LDR encapsulated with an LED. That is a 4 legged device and by definition is NOT an LDR but may contain one (or something else). Here is an optocoupler as described by the manufacturer,,,, http://www.newark.com/advanced-photonix/nsl-32sr2/optocoupler-resistor-2000v/dp/71C0279
As you can see An LDR is one thing and an optocoupler is a different thing by both definition and operation. While they both use light to vary the resistance the two do have definitions as to what they are. Also, there is no requirement the light source be an LED in the case of an LDR. Optocouplers in audio have "problems" but it's not my job to explain them or even care about them. I only care that folks understand the proper terms. LDR...2 legged device...."light dependent resistor"......4 legged device containing LED and LDR is an optocoupler.....by definition from the manufacturer.. "The NSL-32SR2 is an O/P Resistive Optocoupler, consists of an LED input optically coupled to a photocell".
Ed
Light Dependant Resistor
20-02-2017, 12:59
Well, I was not going to post anymore to avoid
breaking rules but this needs to be cleared up. Chris, your definitions
are simply wrong. Please see this definition of a Photocell also known
as an LDR (light dependent resistor).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoresistor The device (an
LDR) is not a 4 legged device with integral LED. That is an optocoupler.
It is a "light dependent resistor", 2 legs, pretty straight forward.
The definition is clear as is the description.....LDR means "light
dependent resistor"...it does NOT mean LDR encapsulated with an LED.
That is a 4 legged device and by definition is NOT an LDR but may
contain one (or something else). Here is an optocoupler as described by
the manufacturer,,,,
http://www.newark.com/advanced-photonix/nsl-32sr2/optocoupler-resistor-2000v/dp/71C0279
As you can see An LDR is one thing and an optocoupler is a different
thing by both definition and operation. While they both use light to
vary the resistance the two do have definitions as to what they are.
Also, there is no requirement the light source be an LED in the case of
an LDR. Optocouplers in audio have "problems" but it's not my job to
explain them or even care about them. I only care that folks understand
the proper terms. LDR...2 legged device...."light dependent
resistor"......4 legged device containing LED and LDR is an
optocoupler.....by definition from the manufacturer.. "The NSL-32SR2 is
an O/P Resistive Optocoupler, consists of an LED
input optically coupled to a photocell".
Ed
Hi Ed
Even the manufacturers struggle using numerous terms and resort to aka ,
really not a good way to convince persons buying is it.
We are placed to suggest better terms to the primary present
manufacturer Luna, which is where our combined efforts should go.
Or to some how insist Optocoupler preferably Audiohm be the only term
used to describe the 4 legged type. The NSL32SR3 could read
for instance NSL32SR3 Audiohm
Let me explain some of the reasons why:
Their present description of photocells is photocell technology (also
known as photoconductive cell, light dependent resistor, photoresistor
or photoconductor )
given it is easy to use one term and not many... that what you use is
simply "photocell technology" Does that sound sensible ?
Also optocuplers can describe transistor optocouplers or fet
optocouplers and hundreds of other optocoupler types
So referring to the 4 pin variety as optocouplers is vague, some other
terms you were not aware of are Optoisolator Photocell describing
a NSL32SR3 at DigiKey a major US supplier
http://www.digikey.co.nz/products/en?keywords=NSL32SR3
If we can agree on "Photocell technology" it will make it easier to know
what you offer, which I do not think has been in dispute all along.
Neither has to the best of my knowledge, ever been any confusion with
the terms I have used and the product supplied. Rather this has just
cropped up, and it is decent of us both to outline some of what we know -
and love to do.
But this is your space... talking of which I would take Marco up on his offer
of a Trade Account too, as you then have the freedom to contribute and tell
us all more about you and what what you build, vs interpretations.
Plus its the very best forum to be involved with on the
planet and sometimes off the planet too -if you get my drift.
Try Three Words Daily for instance.
I know of cheeky efforts expressing the exact opposite to call photocell
technology - optocouplers, Yes it happened
Casco Silonex at the European Union were patiently explaining the
difference between what they made Yes as Optocouplers but
a cheeky Chinese firm as I recall called Macron calling their product
what we know as a two legged photocell the same type or
very close in your own product ( you think I am about to type LDR ) but
NO they were calling their two legged device to deliberately
muddy the water "Macron Opto Coupler Devices" They can't have it both
ways... until you realize they were getting free advertisement
fully realizing if they associated their product with Silonex's ( Now
called Luna ) they could move up the stock market index. The sad
thing was the EU did not get, or understand the wider implications.
I would like to spend a few days researching the history that has been
archived, as aka's suggest earlier historical terms
were prevalent, Optocouplers which I also referred to as Audiohms it
is for the moment, Audiohms sound sensible describing the 4 legged type
A few months at the other forums discussing could redefine Silonex's cute name
associating with audio purpose. What do you think ?
At least I was half way there . Great we
can have pleasant sensible dialogue. Nice meeting you too in a virtual
sense.
Cheers / Chris
RothwellAudio
20-02-2017, 13:00
Yes, Light Dependent Resistors are resistors, and like nearly all resistors have two legs.
Optocouplers or photocouplers is a more vague term which may refer to an LDR and an LED in a single package or may refer to one or more phototransistors or photodiodes in a package with one or more LEDs. Here's a page full of variations on the theme if anyone is interested.
https://www.rapidonline.com/photocouplers
Light Dependant Resistor
20-02-2017, 13:52
Yes,
Light Dependent Resistors are resistors, and like nearly all resistors
have two legs.
Optocouplers or photocouplers is a more vague term which may refer to an
LDR and an LED in a single package or may refer to one or more
phototransistors or photodiodes in a package with one or more LEDs.
Here's a page full of variations on the theme if anyone is interested.
https://www.rapidonline.com/photocouplers
Hi Andrew
Nothing in the first section what you just said associates LDR's with photocell technology the primary description
given by Luna. In fact distances further suggesting that LDR's are just resistors and something different altogether not associated
with illuminated energy causing photoresistive change ... you are making a lot of work for me ... so slow down just a bit please,
and read carefully what has been written and discussed.
In the link you provided Yes grand evidence of the points I just made ... 31 devices called photocouplers the long distant cousin - just kidding
of optocouplers... If I spend a day I can find thousands of optocouplers but none are Audiohms
But here flying in the face of what Ed wrote is Element 14 describing NSL32SR types as LDR's Photocell / LDR Output Optocouplers (10)
http://nz.element14.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=64&storeId=10189&categoryName=All&selectedCategoryId=&gs=true&st=optocouplers
If a very major electronics distributor is disagreeing with Wikipedia .. perhaps the Titanic will sail into Portsmouth tomorrow or my breakfast will be
made when I wake up.
Ed, awaiting his reply can confirm Photocell Technology for his product the two legged type , and Audiohms the cute
term Silonex came up with for the 4 legged type, until forums elsewhere have contributed. I think thats a good way for proceeding.
I need to go to bed, so please await Ed's reply on this point, but talk otherwise as much as is needed.
Cheers / Chris
RothwellAudio
20-02-2017, 14:35
^ I really don't have any idea what any of that meant. :scratch:
The devices shown in the pictures of The Truth (post #105) look exactly like these to me
https://www.rapidonline.com/12mm-light-dependent-resistor-non-rohs-82713
They are resistors which vary in resistance dependent on the amount of light which shines on them, hence they're known as Light Dependent Resistors or LDRs. I can't see what's complicated about that.
BTW, you will notice from the link that those particular LDRs are RoHS Non Compliant, meaning they're not strictly legal for use in commercial products in the EU. That's because they contain cadmium.
Pieoftheday
20-02-2017, 19:25
Bloody ek this is making my head hurt, I'm going to have to re read again, and again etc ..........
RothwellAudio
21-02-2017, 09:30
Yes, it's starting to make my head hurt as well! What was a thread about a linestage preamp seems to have turned into an argument about how many legs a Light Dependent Resistor has. Or something :scratch:
Ah, but the pertinent question is this:
Can a three-legged donkey, during a leap year, dance better than a 4-legged one now, and if so, is the phenomenon highlighted best by the Cha-Cha-Cha or the Boogie-Woogie?
Marco.
montesquieu
21-02-2017, 10:32
Ah, but the pertinent question is this:
Can a three-legged donkey, during a leap year, dance better than a 4-legged one now, and if so, is the phenomenon highlighted best by the Cha-Cha-Cha or the Boogie-Woogie?
Marco.
But Marco you have failed to set out your measurement criteria ...
Frazeur1
21-02-2017, 10:32
Let's just put a few more legs on it and call it a day!
I do wonder why folk MUST KNOW how it works and see inside etc. Ive got amps ive used for years and never bothered to look. It looks good, sounds good and to me thats enough.
RothwellAudio
21-02-2017, 10:42
^ Yes, I wish I could adopt that attitude - I'm sure I'd be much happier. I've been pulling things apart to find out how they work for as long as I can remember :lol:
Spectral Morn
21-02-2017, 10:49
I do wonder why folk MUST KNOW how it works and see inside etc. Ive got amps ive used for years and never bothered to look. It looks good, sounds good and to me thats enough.
Yes, when I was young and fresh faced (well mostly lol) I used to get excited by all the tech and figures and such like, how it did it and why, now I don't care a jot. My main interest is how a thing sounds and how it might fit into systems.
Sadly many reviews out there consist of specs, function and very little actual text on how it sounds. The former I can get from a manufacturers website, the later only from the reviewer/listeners first hand experience. That is interesting, the former not so much.
The only time function and operation is of interest is if there is an issue. The current Marantz SA10 review in this months HiFi News, doesn't mention if the mechanism is silent or noisy. The SA7 was somewhat noisy as are Esoterics (except they are really noisy), but no mention in mags :scratch:
walpurgis
21-02-2017, 10:53
I do wonder why folk MUST KNOW how it works and see inside etc. Ive got amps ive used for years and never bothered to look. It looks good, sounds good and to me thats enough.
I open up very bit of equipment I get (apart from cartridges), if only to give the interior a clean. Sometimes I have a tinker though. :)
Spectral Morn
21-02-2017, 10:56
I open up very bit of equipment I get (apart from cartridges), if only to give the interior a clean. Sometimes I have a tinker though. :)
Klyne pre-amps are beautiful inside, most other kit, not so much.
I cant really be bothered now. It is what it is. Been fixing stuff since i was 13. Now i just listen as they are mostly just what youd expect anyways. Must be old age, but glad i dont care. I make exceptions to some mains Chinese stuff and check for earths...for some reason they seem to think anodizing is good enough :doh:
I do wonder why folk MUST KNOW how it works and see inside etc. Ive got amps ive used for years and never bothered to look. It looks good, sounds good and to me thats enough.
For an non-builder, audio and music enthusiast, that is ALL you need to know, period!
Marco.
Sadly many reviews out there consist of specs, function and very little actual text on how it sounds. The former I can get from a manufacturers website, the later only from the reviewer/listeners first hand experience. That is interesting, the former not so much.
Spot on. I want the reviewer, via his or her clever descriptive use of language (but not frothy, meaningless prose), to successfully 'paint a picture' in my mind, in a way I can relate to, of how something sounds - and when done right, that takes as much skill to achieve [although of a different type], as that of an EE building a circuit.
Reading reams of technical data, measurements or graphs, in the context of a hi-fi review, for me is sleep-inducing in the extreme, of ZERO relevance to me (as I wouldn't understand what most of it meant), and about as enjoyable as shoving a rusty kebab skewer up my Jap's eye....!
Marco.
montesquieu
21-02-2017, 11:55
Spot on. I want the reviewer, via his or her clever descriptive use of language (but not frothy, meaningless prose), to successfully 'paint a picture' in my mind, in a way I relate to, of how something sounds - and when done right, that takes as much skill to achieve [although of a different type], as that of any EE building a circuit!
Reading reams of technical data, measurements or graphs, in the context of a hi-fi review, for me is sleep-inducing in the extreme, of ZERO relevance to me (as I wouldn't understand what it meant), and about as enjoyable to do as shoving a rusty kebab skewer up my Jap's eye....!
Marco.
The trouble with that is that most reviewers have a belief system of one sort or another that means all of that descriptive waffle is just that - waffle. I'd much rather know something about a piece of kit's construction/design approach/if possible measurement - by then I've read enough to fit it into my mental map of kit (of which I've heard loads over the years) to have a pretty good idea how it will sound, without listening to some vague waffle about how it sounds on girl+guitar vs how it handles Wagner. I usually skip over the waffley-descriptive bits as boring/pointless!
Ye cannae change the laws a physics Cap'n!
The trouble with that is that most reviewers have a belief system of one sort or another that means all of that descriptive waffle is just that - waffle.
Indeed, which is why I no longer buy hi-fi mags and almost never read on-line reviews, other than the likes of those posted here by our members, the majority of which are honest and contain no agenda.
However, some journalists have writing skills (David Price and, occasionally, Alan Sircom come to mind), which succeed in allowing you a real insight into what they're hearing/experiencing, especially those who have similar sonic proclivities to you, and *that* tells me much more (of what I need to know) about a potential purchase than any amount of technical gobbledygook.
Anything else, including what you've referred to, I can research and satisfy for myself. The latter is the important bit. The job of the review is simply to pique my interest sufficiently enough in a particular product to take it any further! ;)
Marco.
Frazeur1
21-02-2017, 12:18
Here in lies part of the rub, we all have different ideas on what a good review is, or what it is to include. Some people are more technical-minded, some not so much. And then we have each reviewer doing his personal take on things, it certainly is a hit or miss type of thing, or at least maybe one might get little bits of this and that?
I do not read reviews often, but I used to, mainly the typical ones, HFN, Stereophile, TAS, and some of the online review thingies. I think maybe the best one can really do is once you have followed maybe a handful of your "preferred" writer/reviewers, and have actually gone and put your own ears to the equipment that they have reviewed, one can at least get some sort of idea about what they are on about. As long as those reviewers don't waffle around and keep their own priorities as to what they like, it at least gives you a smidgeon of a baseline-if that is at all possible.
In the end, we owe it to ourselves and our own ears regardless. I find most reviews difficult at best, like a chef trying to describe how a certain food would taste to a person that has only ever eaten at Mc D's.
Firebottle
21-02-2017, 12:36
..... like a chef trying to describe how a certain food would taste to a person that has only ever eaten at Mc D's.
Good analogy :thumbsup:
I, along with many others, find it difficult to describe all the nuances of the sound 'picture' in front of you.
Marco can get a bit 'flowery' in his descriptions for my taste (no offense) but does have a far better gift of audio description than I.
For my part I like transparency, I can tell if there are low level distortions due to a softness or 'mushy' presentation, however small.
What turns me cold is the distinction of bass, mid and treble when describing the sound, in my mind quality equipment should have no trouble in presenting a very wide bandwidth without trouble.
The only kit that may fall short of this is speakers, particularly at the bass end given size restraints.
:sofa:
Good post, Timothy. I completely agree.
The folks I don't understand are those who aren't sufficiently technically minded to understand the proper meaning of graphs and measurements, but are nevertheless 'impressed' by them and/or folk who seemingly can waffle eruditely about electronics, but might have the 'musical ears' of Dr Deaf! What da fuck's all that about? :hmm:
The audio designers I rate the most aren't necessarily those who can recite the contents of whatever technical journal is considered as the 'ultimate bible' for electronics experts, but those who can demonstrate lateral thinking/an ability to step 'outside of the box', push boundaries, test new principles and refuse to believe that all there is to know about audio design is already known and supported by 'Johnny's book of physics'.
Most importantly of all, however, is an audio designer who can demonstrate to me, via listening to their equipment, that he or she has a bloody good pair of ears and an intrinsic and fundamental understanding of how real voices and instruments are supposed to sound! Hence why the best audio designers I've met are music lovers first and foremost, ahead of 'measurement fetishists', and possess as much passion for music as they do for building boxes or playing around with oscilloscopes!!
Marco.
walpurgis
21-02-2017, 13:04
Yes. Ears first! Worry about the spec and reviews later. If at all. :D
Just listen to equipment. In your own system where possible. To an extent, does take experience to know what you are listening for, but a bad match of component is pretty obvious.
Marco can get a bit 'flowery' in his descriptions for my taste (no offense) but does have a far better gift of audio description than I.
Haha - no offence taken, daftee! Sometimes you can't help be a little bit "flowery", as you're searching in your mind for words to describe a particular sound or experience, and that's not always easy.
If I'm reviewing something, I just do my best to paint a picture of what I'm hearing/experiencing in a way that (hopefully) readers and/or potential customers can relate to. You also need a PERSONALITY, which folks either love or hate, and an ability to imbue enthusiasm. Ultimately, the important thing is that what's written gets READ...
Wishy-washy, boring bastards, therefore, don't make good reviewers! :D
If something is genuinely very good, I also think it's important to 'excite' people about that product, and make them *want* to try it, again via the use of descriptive language, which I do agree is a skill - and one not often appreciated by those born more gifted in the left side of their brains, than the right....
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/SlF8AU.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poSlF8AUj)
Marco [more of a 'righty' than a 'lefty'] ;)
Haha - no offence taken, daftee! Sometimes you can't help be a little bit "flowery", as you're searching in your mind for words to describe a particular experience, and that's not always easy.
If I'm reviewing something, I just do my best to paint a mental picture of what I'm hearing/experiencing in a way that (hopefully) readers and/or potential customers can relate to.
If something is genuinely very good, I also think it's important to 'excite' people about that product, and make them *want* to try it, again via the use of descriptive language, which I do agree is a skill - and one not appreciated by those who have been more gifted in the left side of their brains, than the right....
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/SlF8AU.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poSlF8AUj)
Marco [more of a 'righty' than a 'lefty'] ;)
And calling someone a fathead is actually a compliment as the more fat in brain the better your brain works. :ner:
RothwellAudio
21-02-2017, 13:27
... but might have the 'musical ears' of mute!
Why would a person who can't speak have bad hearing?
But I take your point about measurements completely. In my experience it isn't at all straightforward to find links between measurements and what you hear. It isn't even straightforward to make measurements!
Haha, Grant - love it! :lolsign:
I also like the term 'helium head', which tends to mean the opposite ;)
Marco.
Why would a person who can't speak have bad hearing?
Sorry, my mistook - brain freeze! :D Now amended....
In my experience it isn't at all straightforward to find links between measurements and what you hear. It isn't even straightforward to make measurements!
Indeed, and yet some consider them as the 'be all and end all'... 'Measurements fetishists', and those who treasure their test apparatus more than their music collection, roast my nut more than you'll ever know ;)
And furthermore, I believe that the electronics engineers/audio designers most afflicted by that condition have been singlehandedly responsible for holding back progress in the field of recorded music reproduction more than any inventors of 'subjectivist foo'!
Why?
They think that all there is to know is already known (and proven by measurements), so they don't push boundaries far enough [often also dismissing out of hand that which doesn't 'fit' with their world view], in order to make new discoveries and thus allow proper progress to happen!!
Outside of computer audio, why else do you think that so little REAL progress has been made in the field of audio design, since the heyday of the 50s and 60s, and in terms of loudspeaker design, even earlier? The obsessive 'measurists' and rigid-thinking 'objectivists' in the industry have stifled real progress!
There's one for you to ponder, while I go out for my daily 5-mile power walk......... :eyebrows:
Laters, muchachos!
Marco.
farflungstar
21-02-2017, 13:41
Good post, Timothy. I completely agree.
The folks I don't understand are those who aren't sufficiently technically minded to understand the proper meaning of graphs and measurements, but are nevertheless 'impressed' by them and/or folk who seemingly can waffle eruditely about electronics, but might have the 'musical ears' of Dr Deaf! What da fuck's all that about? :hmm:
The audio designers I rate the most aren't necessarily those who can recite the contents of whatever technical journal is considered as the 'ultimate bible' for electronics engineers, but those who can demonstrate lateral thinking, have an ability to think 'outside of the box', push boundaries, test new principles and refuse to believe that all there is to know about audio design is already known and outlined in 'Johnny's book of physics'.
Most importantly of all, however, is an audio designer who can demonstrate to me, via listening to their equipment, that he or she has a bloody good pair of ears and an intrinsic and fundamental understanding of how real voices and instruments are supposed to sound! Hence why the best audio designers I've met are music lovers first and foremost, ahead of 'measurement fetishists', and possess as much passion for music as they do for building boxes or playing around with oscilloscopes!!
Marco.
You've just described the Truth and it's creator.
Frazeur1
21-02-2017, 14:07
God, I would hate to invision what the inside of my skull would look like, probably similar to Homer Simpson's, a lot of air and a little mush....
And furthermore, I believe that the electronics engineers/audio designers most afflicted by that condition have been singlehandedly responsible for holding back progress in the field of recorded music reproduction more than any inventors of 'subjectivist foo'!
Why?
They think that all there is to know is already known (and proven by measurements), so they don't push boundaries far enough [often also dismissing out of hand that which doesn't 'fit' with their world view], in order to make new discoveries and thus allow proper progress to happen!!
Outside of computer audio, why else do you think that so little REAL progress has been made in the field of audio design, since the heyday of the 50s and 60s, and in terms of loudspeaker design, even earlier? The obsessive 'measurists' and rigid-thinking 'objectivists' in the industry have stifled real progress!
There's one for you to ponder, while I go out for my daily 5-mile power walk......... :eyebrows:
I'm surprised that there has been no input or reaction to this post - too close for comfort, to a 'home truth' for some, perhaps? ;)
Marco.
farflungstar
23-02-2017, 10:16
After you being controversial Marco..... Lol
Lol... Well, it's something that I truly do believe. Don't get me wrong, when designing equipment, technical measurements are vitally important and 100% necessary (to those who fully understand and know how to utilise them), but they're *not* the be-all-and-end-all, and don't always tell the full story...
It's my view that if a higher percentage of audio designers/electronics engineers trusted their ears and gut instincts more, and were more naturally inquisitive [practiced more lateral thinking], delving deeper into things that aren't explained by currently accepted wisdom, relying less on the contents of established textbooks, then more progress would've been made in the development and production of high-end audio equipment than so far has been the case.
Let's PUSH THOSE BOUNDARIES more and set higher standards!!
However, I also think that part of the problem is the fault of consumers for not being discerning enough and swallowing the notion that 'newest is always best', rather than challenging that conception and driving up standards, so that said ADs and EEs were forced to up their game accordingly and produce kit that genuinely excels, rather than is merely adequate or 'fit for purpose'! ;)
It should of course be taken for granted that I'm not talking about any builders or designers here.
Anyway, let's have more *truly great* equipment produced, designed to be the BEST it possibly can, at a given price point, rather than simply of the 'meh' variety - and then just maybe some REAL progress will be made in today's audio industry.
Marco.
farflungstar
23-02-2017, 11:19
I agree completely.
We need more audio equipment designed for the *right reasons* (rather than simply boxes produced to fill a product range), with a passion and desire to create something truly special, at an affordable price, and where the money has been spent on where it matters most, 'under the hood', and not on superfluous frippery!
At the moment, most of the design focus is on 'meh' entry-level gear, or blinged-up 'badge-fi' only a Russian oligarch could afford... We need more equipment designed to satisfy the middle ground, aimed at *genuine enthusiasts*, which both truly provides an open window onto the music and is a pleasure to own.
Marco.
farflungstar
28-02-2017, 21:52
Ok so a few more words about the Truth.
Steve at Magna is going to make me a nice oiled walnut sleeve for it so it should then look presentable.
First the good - im still astonished by this thing - it passes on information that I never knew existed on my albums and surprises me with every listening. It's neither sterile nor coloured - it just not audible, not there.
It has a quirk - although it's permanently powered it genuinely improves over an hour or so of listening - though I can't explain in what way - it just does, maybe it's fluidity. And I realise this contradicts my 'not there' statement above.
Bad? I really would like a fixed balance point to know that my cart is aligned right, antiskate, azimuth all effect channel balance and without a perfect reference point it's difficult for someone anal like me to feel confident that the cart is operating at optimum. Saying that it all sounds superb and I'm finding it difficult to switch off the music after work and actually eat! That hasn't happened in a long time - putting on the stereo the moment I get in from work.
Starterman
28-02-2017, 22:59
We need more audio equipment designed for the *right reasons* (rather than simply boxes produced to fill a product range), with a passion and desire to create something truly special, at an affordable price, and where the money has been spent on where it matters most, 'under the hood', and not on superfluous frippery!
At the moment, most of the design focus is on 'meh' entry-level gear, or blinged-up 'badge-fi' only a Russian oligarch could afford... We need more equipment designed to satisfy the middle ground, aimed at *genuine enthusiasts*, which both truly provides an open window onto the music and is a pleasure to own.
Marco.
The Truth looks pretty flakey to me.
It might have been designed "for the right reasons", but its specification and claims don't seem to have much foundation.
I was making a general point, Dave, not necessarily one about 'The Truth' (which I haven't heard) :)
Marco.
farflungstar
28-02-2017, 23:49
The maker has divulged something of how it works to me but I'm keeping quiet about it. However, there are sound principles in the design.
Whilst I agree that ergonomically it isn't that great, and that even though I'm having it pimped up visually build quality isn't exactly in the same league as the rest of my gear and doesn't inspire confidence - however, the sonics justify any claims the maker makes about it.
Please understand that if you haven't heard it you can't understand what it does and what you are in fact missing from vinyl - it breathes music, data retrieval - if it was cut in the lacquer, no matter how subtle, you will hear it (depending in the quality of your amps). There is no blurring, no softened dynamics - but it isn't analytical.
I don't like the product - but the sound is addictive.
Pieoftheday
09-03-2017, 20:15
There is no Truth, engineers piss about with recordings,even live stuff is messed about with, no recorded stuff is the Truth, ppprrf,,,.
anubisgrau
12-03-2017, 13:47
ah, i was wondering for weeks what is the truth since i noticed it in adrian's signature quite some time ago
totally familiar with his findings - i had the same experience first time when i brought a myth audio LDR thing into my system, some 5 years ago
at the that time i had MFA TVC - it killed it on accounts of transparency and detail to my total disbelief - plus it sounded punchier and more dynamic
i sold MFA TVC in no time
by the time i started noticing hardness i didn't hear before. could be it was my system but it made me wondering how it would sound if it would have a good tube buffers instead of JFETs it had
i could never get the designer to custom make one for me
eventually i sold it in anticipation of an upgraded version and got slagle AVC as a stop gap
i'm still with it. the upgraded version has never showed up and i kinda liked what slagle thing do. i've heard better preamps and even more detailed TVCs but it's just right for what it costs.
the above myth LDR would be just fckn phenomenal with a DHT buffer or similar around 45 or 4P1L but who's gonna built it? i could only imagine what musicality and transparency such a device could have.
as for the salvatore's site, you really need to be very pretentious to run it like that. there's hundred devices out there he hasn't heard that would end selected. it is better not to be over excited.
as for slagle AVCs, i owned 3 and heard 2 more in my life. all 5 sounded different, depending on the implementation. the best is 1 input 1 output, this is the winner. the worst was the most complicated bent audio tap-x, especially through buffers (shocking bad!).
last but not least, just wondering how no one notices bloody obvious - photo cells ARE acting as resistors in this device, you can call it what you like but this is a buffered, resistive volume control. not that a definition matters so much but let's call it straight.
eabeemer
12-03-2017, 21:28
I stumbled accidently on this thread and want to share my story about the Truth!
As a frequent visitor of Audiocircle I read much about the Tortuga LDR passive preamp and was seriously considering buying it.
Then someone mentioned about the Truth preamp and I look further into it. Read also the Salvatore’s review and took the plunge and ordered it.
December last year I was the very happy owner of this very remarkable preamp. I could hear the potential but there was a problem with this preamp, so I thought. And as mentioned what a good guy Ed Schilling is, he ask me to return it to him. He couldn’t find any faults but as promised he made me a brand new one. Ed also strongly recommended me to look into my fancy cables and swap these with “common” cables.
I had a pair Sommer Albedo cable lying around and used it between the dac and the Thruth.
Wow what a day and night difference it made. I’m in this hobby for about 35 years and for the first time I heard such a device that is not excelling in some areas but it is giving the whole package and makes you hear music like it was meant to be.
Adrian has mentioned his experiences with the Truth in several posts and this mirrors exactly what I have been hearing.
I have told Ed that the Truth is going nowhere and I don’t think I will ever part of it.
This is not the first time I bought a device without hearing it. The Tram MK2 preamp of Thorsten Loesch I bought also based on experiences of owners/users and was very happy with it. But it looks like this Tram mk2 will need another home.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________________
TT: Technics SL1000 with Dynavector Dv505 arm and Acutex m312str, Lenco L75 in heavy Birch plinth with a Mission arm and Acutex 315str lpm, ; digital: Denon dvd3310, Altmann BYOB Dac from Asus ROG GL752VW and Rednet 3, Tube MM phonopre
Amplification: Preamps: The Truth and Tram mk2 DHT; poweramps: Sphinx project 14 and 16, Wolcott Presence mono's and modified Conrad Johnson MV75
Loudspeakers: Apogee Full Range (fully restored), Scintilla, Diva
Cables/stands: Cardas golden reference and cross ic's, KCI silkworms ic's, Klotz MC5000, Sommer Albedo, Yannis Tome 423.5 phonocable with eichmann pure harmony and Furutech CF plugs, Audioquest Diamond Ethernet cable, Siltech power cables, MIT ic's, Reality speakercables, Isotek Orion and Titan mains conditioners
farflungstar
12-03-2017, 21:44
Thanks for sharing! Out of curiosity what was the original problem?
eabeemer
12-03-2017, 23:34
There was a cracking/thumping sound when turning up the volume. But when I connected to another input in the Truth this cracking/thumping sound was gone but came the next day back.
It seems to be a cable matching problem. According to Ed I was the only one having this problem.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________________________
TT: Technics SL1000 with Dynavector Dv505 arm and Acutex m312str, Lenco L75 in heavy Birch plinth with a Mission arm and Acutex 315str lpm, ; digital: Denon dvd3310, Altmann BYOB Dac from Asus ROG GL752VW and Rednet 3, Tube MM phonopre
Amplification: Preamps: The Truth and Tram mk2 DHT; poweramps: Sphinx project 14 and 16, Wolcott Presence mono's and modified Conrad Johnson MV75
Loudspeakers: Apogee Full Range (fully restored), Scintilla, Diva
Cables/stands: Cardas golden reference and cross ic's, KCI silkworms ic's, Klotz MC5000, Sommer Albedo, Yannis Tome 423.5 phonocable with eichmann pure harmony and Furutech CF plugs, Audioquest Diamond Ethernet cable, Siltech power cables, MIT ic's, Reality speakercables, Isotek Orion and Titan mains conditioners
farflungstar
12-03-2017, 23:44
It's weird, as it's supposed to be impervious to driving long cables, so weird that it has a problem with cable types. I have a slightly similar problem when I turn the volume up almost to the limit I get a buzzing - Ed says it's the led overloading the photocell and that it probably shifted in transit (not surprising considering the 3 transatlantic flights it took) and that I need to sightly tilt the led a little. Im gonna do it in the next week when I have time as it's not really an issue.
The transparency is astonishing on it - the different character of a cable or SRA changes are so obvious. I'm currently juggling with interconnects...
Adey
RothwellAudio
13-03-2017, 15:10
last but not least, just wondering how no one notices bloody obvious - photo cells ARE acting as resistors in this device, you can call it what you like but this is a buffered, resistive volume control. not that a definition matters so much but let's call it straight.
What makes you think no one noticed? As you say, it's bloody obvious.
Ali Tait
13-03-2017, 15:32
ah, i was wondering for weeks what is the truth since i noticed it in adrian's signature quite some time ago
totally familiar with his findings - i had the same experience first time when i brought a myth audio LDR thing into my system, some 5 years ago
at the that time i had MFA TVC - it killed it on accounts of transparency and detail to my total disbelief - plus it sounded punchier and more dynamic
i sold MFA TVC in no time
by the time i started noticing hardness i didn't hear before. could be it was my system but it made me wondering how it would sound if it would have a good tube buffers instead of JFETs it had
i could never get the designer to custom make one for me
eventually i sold it in anticipation of an upgraded version and got slagle AVC as a stop gap
i'm still with it. the upgraded version has never showed up and i kinda liked what slagle thing do. i've heard better preamps and even more detailed TVCs but it's just right for what it costs.
the above myth LDR would be just fckn phenomenal with a DHT buffer or similar around 45 or 4P1L but who's gonna built it? i could only imagine what musicality and transparency such a device could have.
as for the salvatore's site, you really need to be very pretentious to run it like that. there's hundred devices out there he hasn't heard that would end selected. it is better not to be over excited.
as for slagle AVCs, i owned 3 and heard 2 more in my life. all 5 sounded different, depending on the implementation. the best is 1 input 1 output, this is the winner. the worst was the most complicated bent audio tap-x, especially through buffers (shocking bad!).
last but not least, just wondering how no one notices bloody obvious - photo cells ARE acting as resistors in this device, you can call it what you like but this is a buffered, resistive volume control. not that a definition matters so much but let's call it straight.
The problem with LDR's is that they are not linear and measure as so.
RothwellAudio
13-03-2017, 15:57
The problem with LDR's is that they are not linear and measure as so.
Yes, I agree. The conventional potentiometer volume control is not a perfect device but going over the LDRs and lights seems to me a bizzare way to address them.
eabeemer
19-03-2017, 18:56
Hi Adrian, like to see the new front and buttons on the Truth. Pictures?
farflungstar
19-03-2017, 19:36
As soon as Steve (Magna) has finished it I'll take pics - nice waxed walnut with hand finished aluminium front plate.
eabeemer
31-03-2017, 22:35
Hi Adrian, any update on the nice front you was making for The Truth?
farflungstar
01-04-2017, 07:22
I'm still waiting for Steve to finish it - he knows I'm not in a hurry and I prefer him to take his time. Don't worry once it's done I'll share photos.
farflungstar
30-05-2017, 14:22
Ok so finally the Truth looks the part it deserves thanks to Steve of this parish. Remember this incredulous bit of kit comes in a, IMO, crappy diy black box with plastic knobs but so deserves better. I had Steve make me a beautiful walnut sleeve with turned aluminium feet to match the Vida, and he even made a rear one adjustable for leveling. He also made me a brushed aluminium fascia which looks great with the vintage Bakelite knobs. Lovely.
It's the one next to the Vida.
http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w483/farflungstar/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20170530_160413_zpset8epeox.jpg
http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w483/farflungstar/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20170530_160445_zpspovhswoe.jpg
http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w483/farflungstar/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20170530_160445_zpspovhswoe.jpg
http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w483/farflungstar/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20170530_160514_zpsdhuyrsts.jpg
http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w483/farflungstar/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20170530_160534_zpscul8fdob.jpg
http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w483/farflungstar/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20170530_160548_zpsbijyzaoj.jpg
Looks mint. 'The Truth' still ticking all the boxes then?
farflungstar
30-05-2017, 20:04
Steve's a genius with wood. It's a beautiful sleeve. Is it (the Truth) still ticking all boxes? Yes. I can't imagine changing it. Like the Vida and the SP10 it's going nowhere.
eabeemer
31-05-2017, 17:02
That's looking very nice Adrian! Now I have inspiration to give my a personal touch. Thanks for sharing.
farflungstar
31-05-2017, 20:41
That's looking very nice Adrian! Now I have inspiration to give my a personal touch. Thanks for sharing.
Does this mean you have this very special bit of kit? I can't remember! Old age....
eabeemer
03-06-2017, 18:38
Yep, I am also a lucky owner of a Truth preamp and want to give it a personal touch.
farflungstar
03-06-2017, 18:40
Speak to Steve at Magna Audio (in trade) - he has the measurements from mine and can create a sleeve in any real wood. A copper fascia would be lovely. His prices are very reasonable.
eabeemer
03-06-2017, 19:12
Thanks, I will keep that in mind. A wood wizard is looking into some ideas for me.
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