View Full Version : New system from scratch
If you were to start again, what would you do?
That's where I am now, I want a new system, but have come to a bit of a dead end with how to proceed. I have been looking at Cyrus and Naim, but I am open to any suggestions if there is something else mega out there.
Initially I was looking at a CD player set up, but it seems more and more that streaming is the way forward. Streaming looks to have its own issues as a slight amount of IT expertise is required and the networking/hard drives etc is a whole new area that needs to be researched.
Are cd's a dying breed?
I generally listen to rock music, anything from cream to Metallica, pink floyd and slipknot. But I generally sill listen to anything, although I am still trying with jazz.
Any help will be hugely appreciated.
Thanks
Dan
walpurgis
03-12-2016, 12:18
Well Dan. That's one hell of a question.
Start with your budget. You definitely need to know how much the total initial outlay will be. Upgrade steps can always be made later.
Consider if you already have equipment worth retaining. Much older gear can be very good.
CD is by no means 'out of favour'. For many of us, it's the main source of music and it can be outstandingly good once got right. Streaming, as you say has become popular. There are a multitude of approaches to this. A good look through the Digital Expressions area should enlighten you to an extent. You don't mention records, are you not considering those? The sound from vinyl can be truly sublime, at a cost.
Don't focus on makes, some of the best systems are definitely 'mix & match'. Good second hand equipment can offer huge savings. Much decent gear comes up for sale here, in the Private Exhibitions section.
Above all, ask more questions here.
Cd is still very much here and i dont see it going completely. Vinyl is overtaking it at moment as has streaming but thats perhaps a good thing for current cd users and costs drop.
You can put a good system together for relatively little and it will sound good. I,d avoid the flavour of today expensive stuff, and as geoff says investigate our threads on digital.
ianlenco
03-12-2016, 12:43
Hi Dan,
Geoff's advice is spot on, first decide your budget and have a look to see if you want to retain anything. If digital is your priority then one way is to go with something like a Vortexbox. This isn't so much a machine, more an operating system in that it can be installed on any PC that you are willing to dedicate to the job. Having said that there are people who sell a complete build. e.g. http://www.vortexbox.co.uk/
Although primarily a vinyl man I use a vortexbox for various reasons. Firstly you don't have to get into streaming - connect the box to your network router using an ethernet cable then to a usb DAC of your choice to your amplifier. You can of course use streaming devices to connect to your vortexbox such as a Squeezebox - I used one of these for a study system.
Once installed you rip your CD's to the box - dead easy then control the vortexbox using your PC/tablet/smart phone where you can instantly access any of your recordings, create playlists etc. You can also access thousands of internet radio stations including BBC offerings so it acts as a tuner as well.
Final reason I like the vortexbox, and this also applies no doubt to other digital ripping systems, is that to my ears it sounds better than native CD's! I've owned some very decent CD players over the years but prefer the Vortexbox for convenience and sound quality.
So there's my suggestion for a source. You can pay little or a lot for a Vortexbox and usb DAC and you get your ripped music and a tuner all in one.
You'd also have to budget for an external hard disc to back up the box but these aren't too expensive these days.
Cheers, Ian
Cd is still very much here and i dont see it going completely. Vinyl is overtaking it at moment as has streaming.
Where did you get these stats? The figures I found suggest revenue from albums and paid streaming are similar,and that CD sales are double this.
In answer to the o/p if I was starting again I'd just copy an existing system that I liked best out of all those I had heard. Assuming I could afford it. I had no money starting out, my first system cost £100 from Richer Sounds. 30 years on I have what I would have bought back then if I had the money but in the intervening years what I consider to be 'end game' has changed and I've been 'exposed' to better, so I'm still not finished.
Or I would explore a DIY active system such as this https://therationalaudiophile.wordpress.com/the-project/ which was literally impossible 30 years ago but is now cheap to do and makes a lot of sense.
I would absolutely not got to a dealer and spend a shedload on a Cyrus or Naim system. I know it is the easy route but you will not get anything like the best sound you could have for your money.
Thank you for the responses guys.
There is lots more to think about.
To answer a couple of questions, my budget initial started at £1500 for each part, so £4500 in total, although once I started looking £6000 seems to be more appropriate. This really is based on a Naim or Cyrus system.
Within the next 12 months I would hope to also purchase a turntable, but I don't actually own any records. As a child I remember my grandparents had some vinyl, but once I got to an age where I was purchasing music it was either on cd or tape.
Which other brands are worth researching? It looks like I have just gone for easy expensive ones.
Vinyl? Same advice I would give for smoking. If you don't already then don't start ;)
Forget brands for the moment and start from first principles. What is the room like? You need to match the speakers to the room so the room will dictate your speaker choice to a extent, the size and appearance of the speakers may matter here also, as will the sort of music you play.
Once you have the speakers decided on you will need to get amplification that is comfortable driving the speakers.
When you have room/speakers/amps sorted out then start considering the source component.
hifi_dave
03-12-2016, 16:24
There is much better to be had if you ignore the usual, highly touted in the mags, products.
walpurgis
03-12-2016, 16:47
Although not a make I use, you really should have Quad on your list. I'd far sooner have a Quad based system than Cyrus or Naim. Everything they make is very well put together, reliable and sounds decent (apart from some of their speakers). The CD players are excellent as are the amps.
I could happily live with a Quad based CD system with say some nice Proac speakers.
Some great bargains about in second hand Quad gear too. Well worth considering.
Pieoftheday
03-12-2016, 16:48
There's a couple of decent hi-fi dealers in Huddersfield,might be worth a visit, or Eric Wiley's in Castleford are nice to deal with:)
ianlenco
03-12-2016, 20:58
You've certainly got a substantial budget to spend and I'm sure many a hifi dealer will be happy to help you spend it. Then when the initial enthusiasm wears off they'll sell you a power supply or some other essential :rolleyes:
What size room are you going to use this new system in - are you after floor standing or stand mount speakers?
loveoscar
03-12-2016, 21:15
Vinyl? Same advice I would give for smoking. If you don't already then don't start ;)
Forget brands for the moment and start from first principles. What is the room like? You need to match the speakers to the room so the room will dictate your speaker choice to a extent, the size and appearance of the speakers may matter here also, as will the sort of music you play.
Once you have the speakers decided on you will need to get amplification that is comfortable driving the speakers.
When you have room/speakers/amps sorted out then start considering the source component.
This is definitely the way to go. You're going to have to go and listen to some speakers for sure and I would be looking at spending a good 50% of your budget on these. Good luck with your quest. Just one question, what is the size of your listening room?
walpurgis
03-12-2016, 21:20
Although I will when needs must, I really dislike using dealers (sorry traders). Some are good and helpful, but you are paying their margin and others will just try to fob you off with stock that is not moving well, so be careful.
If you were to buy wisely second hand, you could assemble a marvellous system for around half new prices. There's plenty of experience here with just about any make you can name. Answers are available. Just ask in the appropriate section. i.e., Blank Canvas for amps and speakers, Digital expressions for CD players, DACs and streaming and Analogue Arts for record playing.
Agree with you Geoff. With £6K and some judicious choices, in the present used market you could put something together that would be approaching world class. Excluding a turntable obviously. It is the more difficult path though.
walpurgis
03-12-2016, 21:42
Lets face it. If one is not worried about having something 'posh', a good system can be put together for hundreds, not thousands. I could definitely assemble a very nice sounding CD setup for less than £300.
From scratch, I would have bought less new gear than I have in the past. As it stands my amp and DAC were new, as well as my custom media server, the rest is used. Consider that high end goods are trading around 1/3 of the price of new in many cases and it is a tough market, people are paying less.
Also consider that I snagged an original Exposure III / IV combo for £350, 10x less cost than my amp, for my studio, and wow what a sound, high end for sure, for less than my speaker cables in the main system.
I also picked up some Sorcerer SEs for £350 and they were more musical and involving than my £2k Amphions, B&W's Signature standmounts, despite ticking less on the HiFi boxes of flat response, resolution etc.
Add a Pioneer PL-71, Exposure III / IV, Vista Audio Phono, Reson Reca and you have a system below £2k that will seriously satisfy, and embarrass a lot of five figures HiFI.
jandl100
04-12-2016, 08:32
If I started from scratch ...
- definitely streaming. No techie knowledge required - I just connect my laptop to my DAC with a USB cable. That's it, sorted. There is some music that I want that is unavailable streamed. Meh, so what? There is just so much that can be streamed that I doubt I would care. So, no discs, all music from the 'net.
- no new amps. Vintage gear for me. Costs a tiny fraction of the latest and greatest, and imho is at least as good if you choose appropriately.
- cheap Chinese DAC. I'd get the same as I have now - £140 new. The best I have heard.
- speakers. 90% of the budget goes here.
Lovely. :)
I have measured the room and it comes int at 5.7m x 7.35m. Speaker wise I am erring towards floor standing.
If you have no knowledge it is easy to be pulled in to buying a system that What Hifi recommends, but from what you are all saying, something superb can be built from second hand kit.
I am noticing mixed opinions on cd or streamer, when I first posted I was looking at streamers, yesterday I was cd and today I am again undecided. Might have to shoot for both.
walpurgis
04-12-2016, 10:58
That's a decent sized room, so some reasonably sized floor standing speakers would probably be good. There's plenty of choice on the used market. Once you have speakers, choose an amp to suit them.
jandl100
04-12-2016, 11:07
£6,000 to spend.
Nice.
For me that would be circa £300 max on an amp (I paid £190 for my current pre/power amp setup). £140 on a DAC. £300 max on cables. The rest on the speakers. Assuming you already have an internetted PC that you can hook a USB cable to.
No that doesn't follow the established wisdom in budget allocation, but I think it would get you the best vfm or sound/£!
walpurgis
04-12-2016, 11:22
Have you looked at the Reference 3a Veena Mk.2 speakers John has on sale here? They'd be a wonderful starting point for a fine sounding system.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?47687-FOR-SALE-REFERENCE-3A-VEENA-Mk2-SPEAKERS
Ali Tait
04-12-2016, 11:30
There is also the consideration of whether you would like to go the valve route. Lots of good amps around secondhand, I believe the was a Radford for sale on here which is a cracking amp, and an investment to boot as they will only go up in value.
Ali Tait
04-12-2016, 11:32
Here tis-
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?48038-Radford-STA25/page2&highlight=Radford
These are seriously good amps.
loveoscar
04-12-2016, 11:41
Have you looked at the Reference 3a Veena Mk.2 speakers John has on sale here? They'd be a wonderful starting point for a fine sounding system.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?47687-FOR-SALE-REFERENCE-3A-VEENA-Mk2-SPEAKERS
I would certainly have recommended these but not knowing what the op had heard/listened to makes it very difficult. I think Jandl's 90% might just be over egging the pudding (no offence meant since we both think the majority of the budget should be spent on speakers) To the op, I really don't think you need to spend anything like £6000 to get a great sounding system and maybe spending 40-50% of that would be an ideal starting point to see how you get on. It would also leave a bit in the kitty if you felt like upgrading in the future, which I'm sure for many is a big part of the fun.
Plenty easy going speakers available for under £600. Thats the main thing, then a nice amp that isnt fussy next, and should be acievable for 3/4 hundred. Then a cd spinner or transport n dac. Can do well for very little tbh. Start with that and some sensible price wires, and run it for some time. Probably a grand or so is enough to open your gambit with. After a few months you will likely know where the weaknesses lie and can, if careful pick up an improvement and sell on the one you think inferior, losing very little in process. Try and get speakers right first time...rich b has or had a couple of pairs on sale, both of which are super. Worth the drive up to get em.
- definitely streaming.
Before you decide on your music system, you need to decide on the SQ of your source.
Record deck good,
CD good,
Computer stored music from your own CDs not an issue if you store them in lossless files such as WAV and FLAC not so good if you store them in some of the lossy formats that throw away musical information
Streaming from the Internet. Often pretty poor as most downloads are lossy
The key is that information thrown away at the source can never be retrieved even if you throw hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of gear at it. If you are happy to start with a compromised source that's fine, but make a conscious decision.
jandl100
04-12-2016, 12:22
I would certainly have recommended these but not knowing what the op had heard/listened to makes it very difficult. I think Jandl's 90% might just be over egging the pudding (no offence meant since we both think the majority of the budget should be spent on speakers) To the op, I really don't think you need to spend anything like £6000 to get a great sounding system
I must admit I did rather pluck the 90% out of the air. ;)
But, looking at my own system which I am hugely in love with .... £200 amp, £140 DAC, £300 cables. £13k speakers. So called "lossy" streaming.
So yep, not 90% on speakers .... more like 95% :lol:
And I think it sounds fabulous! :)
And yes, I've been through many multi-£k electronics - wotta wastamoney! :D
If it were me with a £6k budget, I would definitely be looking up to £5k+ or so on speakers.
Pieoftheday
04-12-2016, 12:40
If you do decide on streaming don't go and get rid of your cds and or vinyl, I've recently ripped all my cds and although I'm happy with the sound I'd go back to using the silver disc any day.i don't currently have the space so they're stored away,but at least I have them:)
ianlenco
04-12-2016, 13:06
With all due respect I get the impression from Dan that he wants an easy to use, "turn key" solution and probably something that's pleasing on the eye too so I can't see him messing with old valve amps with all that entails to keep them running sweet. The Radford may be a great amp but probably not for Dan. Dan says he likes rock music and I'm guessing he wants something new to take pride of ownership in. OK, so those of us long in the tooth have probably been through that faze of having some post-kids disposable income and going out and buying flavour of the month products only to be disappointed once the shine has worn off and horrified at the cost of the dealer's suggestions for upgrading. So it's understandable that many of the responses here are saying to Dan, hold on, that's a lot of money and you don't need to spend anything like that to get excellent music. The trouble is Dan, when you ask such a general question as what system should I buy you'll get lots of opinions, all have value but maybe you'll be more confused than when you started.
For what it's worth here's my opinion based on stuff I've owned or listened to at length in recent times.
Source - ready made Vortexbox - it can be used to stream music elsewhere but doesn't need the internet other than to get track info and art work - you control it through your network. Around £400
USB DAC to connect your Vortexbox to your amp. An Audiolab M-DAC has volume control so would work as a pre-amp for a digital only system. It also has balanced outputs - see below - £540
Power amp. I'm currently using a pair of Graham Slee Proprius power amps and they are quite excellent - balance in so you can stick them behind your speakers with long interconnects and short speaker cables out. £1300 a pair.
That leaves around £2260 for speakers and cables from the original £4500 budget. Dan's room is a good size, a little bigger than mine where I use Neat Motive SX2s which can fill the room easily using the Proprius amps. As Dan likes his rock music I'd go for the Motive SX1's giving a bit more in the bass region but also refined enough for other genres. £2000. That leaves more than enough for some balanced interconnects, USB cable and a bit of speaker cable.
So Dan, a new digital system, easy to link up and control and discrete so as not to upset the better half. Others will disagree no doubt. :) but that's what I'd buy if I was starting out and wasn't particularly interested in vinyl (which I am).
Stratmangler
04-12-2016, 13:14
Streaming from the Internet. Often pretty poor as most downloads streams are lossy
The terms "downloads" and "streams" are not interchangeable.
They often are, and it leads to general confusion.
The is plenty of lossless material to download on the internet.
Most streaming services are lossy, although there are exceptions.
High bitrate streaming services can sound very good, but they're relatively thin on the ground.
With all due respect I get the impression from Dan that he wants an easy to use, "turn key" solution and probably something that's pleasing on the eye too so I can't see him messing with old valve amps with all that entails to keep them running sweet. The Radford may be a great amp but probably not for Dan. Dan says he likes rock music and I'm guessing he wants something new to take pride of ownership in. OK, so those of us long in the tooth have probably been through that faze of having some post-kids disposable income and going out and buying flavour of the month products only to be disappointed once the shine has worn off and horrified at the cost of the dealer's suggestions for upgrading. So it's understandable that many of the responses here are saying to Dan, hold on, that's a lot of money and you don't need to spend anything like that to get excellent music. The trouble is Dan, when you ask such a general question as what system should I buy you'll get lots of opinions, all have value but maybe you'll be more confused than when you started.
For what it's worth here's my opinion based on stuff I've owned or listened to at length in recent times.
Source - ready made Vortexbox - it can be used to stream music elsewhere but doesn't need the internet other than to get track info and art work - you control it through your network. Around £400
USB DAC to connect your Vortexbox to your amp. An Audiolab M-DAC has volume control so would work as a pre-amp for a digital only system. It also has balanced outputs - see below - £540
Power amp. I'm currently using a pair of Graham Slee Proprius power amps and they are quite excellent - balance in so you can stick them behind your speakers with long interconnects and short speaker cables out. £1300 a pair.
That leaves around £2260 for speakers and cables from the original £4500 budget. Dan's room is a good size, a little bigger than mine where I use Neat Motive SX2s which can fill the room easily using the Proprius amps. As Dan likes his rock music I'd go for the Motive SX1's giving a bit more in the bass region but also refined enough for other genres. £2000. That leaves more than enough for some balanced interconnects, USB cable and a bit of speaker cable.
So Dan, a new digital system, easy to link up and control and discrete so as not to upset the better half. Others will disagree no doubt. :) but that's what I'd buy if I was starting out and wasn't particularly interested in vinyl (which I am).
The Vortexbox is definitely something I now need to research. Also Quad and Audiolab.
Two days ago like many niave people I just thought that you get what you pay for, but education and experience looks to be more valuable.
I am going to start looking at the system above, but as a slight segue from the initial tack of this thread are you all confident that you could build a system that would sound better than basic Naim/Cyrus setup for a fraction of the price?
Thanks again.
hifi_dave
04-12-2016, 14:25
You can do better for less but you will need to avoid the chains as all they will sell is what makes them most profit.
ianlenco
04-12-2016, 14:41
Dave's quite right and if you are willing to be patient you could put the system I suggested together for a lot less by going second hand - that's what I did. There are plenty of alternatives to this system and all will sound excellent. Might be worth you finding some options yourself and asking for comments.
.
I am going to start looking at the system above, but as a slight segue from the initial tack of this thread are you all confident that you could build a system that would sound better than basic Naim/Cyrus setup for a fraction of the price?
Thanks again.
Yes. Listening to it right now. I won't say better as that is a bit subject to taste but in objective terms at the very least the equal. Cost £1800 all in.
Indeed. If you have a "sound" in your mind then it can be difficult to replicate it, even with same gear, as room avoustics and your mood etc will be different.
You might be advised to see if there are any members nearbye that can let you hear their systems. These oppertunities can better give you a decent idea of what's achievable with different things. You may be pleasently surprised.
paulf-2007
04-12-2016, 16:13
I can see our OP is keen to spend his budget but has at least acknowledged the fact that a dealer will be rubbing his hands to get hold of that budget regardless of whether it will work in his room. The wigwam show is not far off and worth a visit to hear a diverse mix of set ups and budgets. If he can't wait until then I would buy a vintage receiver and speakers to get started and move them on at no loss later. Personally I don't play cd's at all but still have them. It's either vinyl or Spotify. The convenience of Spotify outweighs any downside it has IMO.
wee tee cee
04-12-2016, 17:28
If starting from scratch with your budget I would be tempted to have a couple of days in London. Your other half has a mooch round the shops while you sit down with HI FI Dave and audition some kit. Take your music with you and decide what sound you like.
Rega kit should be on your list. For plug and play a USB DAC/AMP with phono section/floor standers to do justice to your rock and maybe a turntable. Rega can do you a whole system thats all voiced together.
A budget laptop...rip all your CDs lossless and subscribe to Spotify premium. A Rega RP1(performance pack IMHO) would be a great intro to vinyl. I reckon you could put together a hassle free, aesthetically pleasing system for a fraction of your budget....loads of money left over to buy CDs and vinyl when you discover stuff you like on spotify.
Dont worry about cables or supports...loads of advice on here to get you great sound for minimal outlay.
The Rega kit is all about the music....at the end of the day thats what it should boil down to.
Having pretty much started again within the last year myself I would definitely recommend that you give NVA amps, Balanced Mains Unit and speakers a listen with a good DAC. Not a particularly popular choice with some here (for reasons that I'm not allowed to go into) but the best sound from a system that I have ever heard.
There is a 30 day trial period in your own home and return for a refund if you don't like it with a good upgrade path if you do. You have to be prepared to accept that NVA speaker cable is a requirement so that the guarantee remains valid though, a concept that is difficult to accept at first but well worth getting to grips with. You could buy a wonderful system for far less than £6000 with NVA at the heart of it or spend your £6000 with a better NVA amps and speakers and have a system that clearly improves on the cheaper one while maintaining a clear family sound.
Having pretty much started again within the last year myself I would definitely recommend that you give NVA amps, Balanced Mains Unit and speakers a listen with a good DAC. Not a particularly popular choice with some here (for reasons that I'm not allowed to go into) but the best sound from a system that I have ever heard.
There is a 30 day trial period in your own home and return for a refund if you don't like it with a good upgrade path if you do. You have to be prepared to accept that NVA speaker cable is a requirement so that the guarantee remains valid though, a concept that is difficult to accept at first but well worth getting to grips with. You could buy a wonderful system for far less than £6000 with NVA at the heart of it or spend your £6000 with a better NVA amps and speakers and have a system that clearly improves on the cheaper one while maintaining a clear family sound.
After looking at the website NVA seems an interesting proposition. What's the general opinion on these amps, do they have favourable reports?
Been on eBay all afternoon, have put together about 9 different systems for not a lot of money. Tempted to get speakers second hand as I would think there is less that can go wrong with them, whereas CD players may wear with time, so more inclined to get a new one.
Id buy everything 2nd hand. That way you can cho and change without loss until you find your ideal. In a room of your size I'd use Snell Js and a nice valve amp, although they do work well with sold state such as Sugden A21a.
Pieoftheday
04-12-2016, 20:10
I know buying used gear is a good option,but if buying everything from scratch i think auditions at a dealer could be very useful ,and sometimes you can get ex demo gear at good discounts. I realise that some dealers don't have a huge range of gear but sometimes you can have too much choice!! Having said that, I'd be tempted to reduce your budget to say £1500 or even £1000, that way you can have fun upgrading later on.
After looking at the website NVA seems an interesting proposition. What's the general opinion on these amps, do they have favourable reports?
.
The passive pre amps are very good and the speaker cable and interconnects can prove very successful in some systems. The power amps I am less keen on, They have finesse but lack a bit of wallop. As you are into heavy rock you'd want to be looking at the A70 monoblocks, forget the lower powered ones. It won't be for everyone but it is a holistic solution and you get a 30 day home trial. The speakers I have not heard except for the Cubettes, which are good, but they are tiny and not what you are after.
What were the amps we listened to at Jason's? I thought those sounded fab in conjunction with my Croft preamp. Sonically, I could quite easily have lived with that as a combo :)
Marco.
Yeah, those rocked! :hairmetal:
Marco.
You thought so but I didn't which is why I've now got a Krell I suppose.
That's the problem really with recommending specific gear to someone else, the quality may be good but the presentation may not be quite what they are after.
Indeed. However, I haven't heard your Krell yet, so I might prefer that, too :)
Marco.
It is really doing the business, ironically after a speaker cable swap to NVA.
Well hey, whatever works, works! :cool:
Marco.
I must admit I did rather pluck the 90% out of the air. ;)
But, looking at my own system which I am hugely in love with .... £200 amp, £140 DAC, £300 cables. £13k speakers. So called "lossy" streaming.
So yep, not 90% on speakers .... more like 95% :lol:
And I think it sounds fabulous! :)
And yes, I've been through many multi-£k electronics - wotta wastamoney! :D
If it were me with a £6k budget, I would definitely be looking up to £5k+ or so on speakers.
:D Jerry, i have obviously got the budget all wrong as my speakers are the least costly part of all of my main rig! ;) About half the cost of my speaker cables! :mental:
There are more than one way to skin a cat as they say! :)
:D Jerry, i have obviously got the budget all wrong as my speakers are the least costly part of all of my main rig! ;) About half the cost of my speaker cables! :mental:
There are more than one way to skin a cat as they say! :)
But would your system be better if you had some much more expensive speakers? If the answer is yes then Jerry is right. Sort of.
My suggestion. All big sellers and very little brand premium. Speakers 50% of total, which is a good measure with digital sources only. Nothing esoteric, so excellent resale values on all these items should you want to change.
The Aries Mini has incredibly good software and a 3 year old could set it up in 5 minutes. You do need and iOS device.
Harbeth M30.1 £2,650
Rega Elex-R £900
MDAC+ £800
Aries Mini £450 + £300 for external PSU + £50 1TB hard drive
Cables £100 (Van Damme Blue, DNM, Maplin)
That lot comes to £5,200 and you could got up to to Harbeth SHL5+ for another £650 and stay under £6k and have a system for life.
Rip your CDs with dbpoweramp and/or get a cheap CD player with digital outputs (Denon, Tascam, TEAC, whatever) so you can send to the MDAC+.
Hifi Dave will advise you very well.
I have two pairs of floor standing speakers for sale on here which may be of interest to you, RS5 and Edingdales. Holmfirth is not a million miles away if you wanted to visit and audition. Check out my classifieds threads here.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?47894-FS-Edingdale-speakers-(handmade-by-Colin-Topps)
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?47891-FS-Rega-RS5-loudspeakers-in-Cherry
Following my post 55, there seems to be a lot of talk about NVA. Look under-powered to me. Most speakers perform better with more power. A very early post recommended Quad (which I use) and the Quad QSP is superb and beefy (160wpc, compared to about 30wpc for NVA). Also very good value at around £1,000. The MDAC+ has a very good volume control, so you wouldn't need an integrated amp.
Don't agree with your speaker choice, not for a man who enjoys Sljpknot and Metallica.
Don't agree with your speaker choice, not for a man who enjoys Sljpknot and Metallica.
He also says Cream and jazz. I listen to a lot of jazz and lots of Clapton this morning. The Harbeth Radial 2 does superb bass if you give it lots of power. I use 260w Quad monoblocks for that reason.
I would be more worried recommending 30w NVA amps (and someone mentioned valves) for heavy metal. They may (or may not) go loud, but they won't control the bass other than on high sensitivity speakers.
I am generally not in the vintage camp, especially recommending a newbie system, and would always prefer normal sensitive speakers and a big cheap amp than a flea amp and highly sensitive (and expensive) speakers. Watts are cheap, but high dB speakers are not.
I have sold good modern kit in days for very little if any loss, but a lot of vintage and valves are very difficult to shift even on forums. I'm stuck with a valve amplifier I can't sell. My only vintage recommendation to the OP would be a Quad 909 for lots of clean power. £500, you will never lose money and cheap to service if needed.
But would your system be better if you had some much more expensive speakers? If the answer is yes then Jerry is right. Sort of.
The answer to your first question is most definently yes, but not if i were to change my current electronics to something of about 10% of it's current value. But my point is there are no general rules that direct what you should spend on individual components within a given budget to accomplish a well setup system. (which i'm sure Jerrys is as well as i am pretty happy with mine)
But on this occasion i think it is wise to begin with the choice of speakers, as they definently will make or break a system in a given context and habitat. Then go for the most suitable amp and source.
If going the analog route be prepared to spend on the cartridge, tone arm and phono stage primarily. The tt itself may be of lesser cost in that case.
jandl100
05-12-2016, 06:32
:D Jerry, i have obviously got the budget all wrong as my speakers are the least costly part of all of my main rig! ;) About half the cost of my speaker cables! :mental:
There are more than one way to skin a cat as they say! :)
Haha! - yes, absolutely totally wrong - for my definition of wrong! :lol:
A previous suggestion was for Irondan to slip down to Melton Mowbray on March 19 next year to visit the Wigwam forum's Scalford Hall show where forum members and others show their systems in individual rooms.
I think that is one of the Great Ideas.
So many systems - dozens to hear, carefully chosen and selected by music and hifi lovers, not just what a few dealers choose to stock and push.
Take a few of your own CDs, turn the wick up a bit as appropriate -- and fall in love with the gear of your choice. :thumbsup:
I have two pairs of floor standing speakers for sale on here which may be of interest to you, RS5 and Edingdales. Holmfirth is not a million miles away if you wanted to visit and audition. Check out my classifieds threads here.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?47894-FS-Edingdale-speakers-(handmade-by-Colin-Topps)
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?47891-FS-Rega-RS5-loudspeakers-in-Cherry
Something has grabbed me with these. The Colin Topps look very good.
I am building some education here, so this could be a slow build, visiting the Wigwam do does sound to be a wise outing.
What are the Colin Topps comparable with and would they suit a rock based system?
Ive heard Edingdales sound superb with any music shoved at em, and with pretty cheap n chearful t amp as well as top quality stuff. One of the lads up here has a set..Easy driven and got all you need. Big and heavy but sound great..look lovely too.
SI am building some education here, so this could be a slow build, visiting the Wigwam do does sound to be a wise outing.
Hi Dan,
Welcome to AoS! :)
Could you do me a favour and translate the above in to English? ;)
Marco.
Hi Dan,
Welcome to AoS! :)
Could you do me a favour and translate the above in to English? ;)
Marco.
Hi Marco
Just following the thread there is a meeting in March, I think the name is Wigwam. Its in Melton Mowbray.
Cheers
Dan
Heard the Edingdales at a NEBO meet with huge variety of amps, pre-amps, sources and music. Big, effortless sound. A couple of grand worth of speaker for £650. The only reason they are so cheap is that they were the demo model and were sold at a discount originally, and they are not made by a big name so the mass of people have never heard of them. Worth an audition, even if you don't buy them it will give you a good benchmark to judge other speakers by.
Hi Marco
Just following the thread there is a meeting in March, I think the name is Wigwam. Its in Melton Mowbray.
Cheers
Dan
Lol... Thanks, Dan. No, I meant what does "do does sound to be a wise outing" mean? :)
;)
Marco.
Following my post 55, there seems to be a lot of talk about NVA. Look under-powered to me. Most speakers perform better with more power. A very early post recommended Quad (which I use) and the Quad QSP is superb and beefy (160wpc, compared to about 30wpc for NVA). Also very good value at around £1,000. The MDAC+ has a very good volume control, so you wouldn't need an integrated amp.
NVA manufacture a range of amps from 15wpc up to monoblock 80wpc so you aren't restricted to 30wpc. They also pay particular attention to the power supplies in their amps which helps with sound quality.
I also have a Croft Micro Basic preamp and Mini-t amp I'd be prepared to sell with a couple of decent cables and bundle them with the Edingdales for a grand. This combo sounds mighty good and will cope with most material thrown at it, that is if you have a decent source. CD player or streaming, (I'd suggest a Chromecast Audio as a cheap and simple way to get streaming). Then of course if you decided to get a turntable at a later stage the Croft has a very good MM phono stage.
NVA manufacture a range of amps from 15wpc up to monoblock 80wpc so you aren't restricted to 30wpc. They also pay particular attention to the power supplies in their amps which helps with sound quality.
Agree, I found NVA amps punch far above their weight so for a domestic setting they'd be fine with all but the most demanding speakers. My only caution is to choose your partnering equipment well as if your source is rubbish they will show it for what it is.
He also says Cream and jazz. I listen to a lot of jazz and lots of Clapton this morning. The Harbeth Radial 2 does superb bass if you give it lots of power. I use 260w Quad monoblocks for that reason.
I would be more worried recommending 30w NVA amps (and someone mentioned valves) for heavy metal. They may (or may not) go loud, but they won't control the bass other than on high sensitivity speakers.
I am generally not in the vintage camp, especially recommending a newbie system, and would always prefer normal sensitive speakers and a big cheap amp than a flea amp and highly sensitive (and expensive) speakers. Watts are cheap, but high dB speakers are not.
I have sold good modern kit in days for very little if any loss, but a lot of vintage and valves are very difficult to shift even on forums. I'm stuck with a valve amplifier I can't sell. My only vintage recommendation to the OP would be a Quad 909 for lots of clean power. £500, you will never lose money and cheap to service if needed.
I can see how the Harbeths will be good with jazz, in that they are sweet and polite but they are still just a small 2 way with a huge price tag, limited bass and limited dynamic range. I'm talking about the Super SHL5 which are the model I have heard. When you think what speakers that same amount of money could buy on the used market I can't see that they are a wise choice. You could get some big Tannoys or JBL for that kind of cash. Or some mint Yamaha NS1000M and a couple of £K in change.
walpurgis
05-12-2016, 11:10
Something from Creek maybe. Great sound quality and all the essentials in a compact and well built package. Remote control too. Comes in silver or black.
http://www.hifi-review.net/37-creek-evolution-100a.html
Should work a treat with the Edingdales.
Ali Tait
05-12-2016, 11:15
Something has grabbed me with these. The Colin Topps look very good.
I am building some education here, so this could be a slow build, visiting the Wigwam do does sound to be a wise outing.
What are the Colin Topps comparable with and would they suit a rock based system?
Edingdales are excellent speakers, and image like a good bookshelf speaker.
Agree, I found NVA amps punch far above their weight so for a domestic setting they'd be fine with all but the most demanding speakers. My only caution is to choose your partnering equipment well as if your source is rubbish they will show it for what it is.
I'd agree with that Rich, my gear shows differences in the CD players that I have tried with it quite easily.
Hi mate.
You'd get far more bang for your buck going second hand than new, and if you buy from the guys on forums like AOS (as opposed to Ebay say) you know its being sold by someone who knows its value and looked after it.
SPEAKERS
The Eddingdales are a bit special, a set on sale just now and they are no longer being made.
If build and sold by big commercial company they would eat up all of your budget and then some.
I'd buy them and base the rest of your system getting the best out if them. Seriously.
Valve amps work really well with them, though Ive had all sorts playing through mine and all sound great as the speakers are easy to get moving.
SOURCE
I'd go Digital only...can get better sound cheaper than with vinyl, and if you go down the vinyl road and want to better your digital it could easily swallow your budget whole!
Music streamer into a good Dac fed music by a NAS or even if you have a computer around the house...Put a couple of extra hard drives just for music in it and connect your streamer to that.
Look into the Squeezebox system...box called the Transporter is their best streamer.
Long out of production but sounds amazing as a digital streamer. Get one for about £700
A serious bit of kit, on its own or hooked up to a good Dac.
Lots of guys here use Rasberry Pi based setups, so lots of help here if you ever get stuck.
With your budget though I's be aiming higher, and you do get better sound if you spend more imo.
DAC
Go second hand for sure, can strongly reccomend the M2Tech Young if one comes up, but Id make an exception and buy new on an Audiobyte Black Dragon dac. Comes in about £1200.
The Dac governs the sound quality of all your digital gear (plug Sky box into it for instance) and you want that sounding as good as you can.
CABLES
No need to spend silly money here.
Mark Grant power cables are about £45ish as are the Klotz MC5000 interconnects sold by a member on AOS.
Lots of us use them and they are bonkers value for money.
Good shout to get down to the Wigwam show, hear as much kit as you can and get an idea whats out there.
Take a notebook!
Good luck, dont overthink it and have fun. :)
I can see how the Harbeths will be good with jazz, in that they are sweet and polite but they are still just a small 2 way with a huge price tag, limited bass and limited dynamic range. I'm talking about the Super SHL5 which are the model I have heard. When you think what speakers that same amount of money could buy on the used market I can't see that they are a wise choice. You could get some big Tannoys or JBL for that kind of cash. Or some mint Yamaha NS1000M and a couple of £K in change.
It's very much down to what the OP wants aesthetically. To me Tannoys and Yamaha are so damned ugly that they would never get near my house. I use the SHL5+ and they certainly do not have limited bass or dynamic range. I just found that they work better with lots of power, at least 150w. Especially with highly dynamic jazz.
If the OP wants to blast a rock and metal, I'd also suggest a pair of pro actives, Chromecast and a spotify/Tidal account.
ATC SCM20ASL Pro would fit the bill well. A pro active that does well domestically.
http://www.whathifi.com/atc/scm20asl-pro/review
Then a streamer or Chromecast and DAC/Pre like the MDAC+ or similar, as long as it has balanced outputs.
We use Chromecast on an active system here and it absolutely superb. Does for $30 what other audio companies charge thousands.
Firebottle
05-12-2016, 12:06
Lol... Thanks, Dan. No, I meant what does "do does sound to be a wise outing" mean? :)
;)
Marco.
Substitute the word 'event' for 'do' and that will make a lot more sense daftee :lol:
Firebottle
05-12-2016, 12:15
You could do a lot worse than these as a starter http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?39045-Interest-check-Quad-77-Integrated-Amplifier-amp-dedicated-CDP, and work up from there.
Lots left in he budget for speakers :)
NVA manufacture a range of amps from 15wpc up to monoblock 80wpc so you aren't restricted to 30wpc. They also pay particular attention to the power supplies in their amps which helps with sound quality.
80w mono blocks cost #1,300. Sounds expensive to me. A Quad QSP gives 140w, timeless design and can get one for #900.
I would recommend the OP to go to Richer sounds as there is great new equipment at very good prices.
The Cambridge Azur 851A is a powerful 120w integrated amplifier, very well made, #1,200
http://www.richersounds.com/product/amplifiers-receivers/cambridge-audio/azur-851a/camb-851a-sil
Pair that up with one of the excellent Pioneer streamer/DACs for #500 or so and done.
hifi_dave
05-12-2016, 12:22
I have no idea where this forum myth about Harbeths being polite, pipe and slippers, don't go loud, don't do bass comes from. Here, I regularly demonstrate how much better they are in these areas than some of the highly touted floors standers, which are supposed to do bass and volume but in reality don''t do either as good as a similarly priced Harbeth.
Here at the coal face, I sell more Harbeths than all others put together and believe me I like it loud and I don't like 'Jazz'.
walpurgis
05-12-2016, 12:33
So many options. Dan's head must be spinning.
What thoughts have you formed so far Dan, are you getting a picture in your head about what you may be aiming for?
Substitute the word 'event' for 'do' and that will make a lot more sense daftee :lol:
Ha - yes it does! It was the "do does" bit that was confusing the hell out of me :eyebrows:
Marco.
hifi_dave
05-12-2016, 12:50
That's the trouble with such questions on any forum - there are too many differing opinions and answers. Ask "what should I buy" and the OP is swamped with suggestions - some helpful, some not so.
I have no idea where this forum myth about Harbeths being polite, pipe and slippers, don't go loud, don't do bass comes from. Here, I regularly demonstrate how much better they are in these areas than some of the highly touted floors standers, which are supposed to do bass and volume but in reality don''t do either as good as a similarly priced Harbeth.
Here at the coal face, I sell more Harbeths than all others put together and believe me I like it loud and I don't like 'Jazz'.
Never understood that myself either, Dave. Any Harbs I've heard (Compact 7s and their top, huge, standmount model, I forget the model number) have sounded nothing like 'pipe & slippers'. Indeed, neither did my Spendor SP100s, which are broadly similar, so it can only be the (poor choice) of partnering equipment [most likely amps] making them sound that way!
Marco.
80w mono blocks cost #1,300. Sounds expensive to me. A Quad QSP gives 140w, timeless design and can get one for #900.
I would recommend the OP to go to Richer sounds as there is great new equipment at very good prices.
The Cambridge Azur 851A is a powerful 120w integrated amplifier, very well made, #1,200
http://www.richersounds.com/product/amplifiers-receivers/cambridge-audio/azur-851a/camb-851a-sil
Pair that up with one of the excellent Pioneer streamer/DACs for #500 or so and done.
Very easy to do but I have had a demo of Richer's top of the range Cambridge system (amps and CD player) with some £1000 quid MS floorstanders and it wasn't even close to what I had then let alone what I have now. Total price was north of £4K. It was overwhelmingly average. Same goes for an Exposure/Elac system at another dealers. 3 grand of kit and it was totally meh.
And when you realise what you could have got for the same money, and sell it on, you have to bite the bullet on 50 to 70 percent depreciation. No thanks.
Never understood that myself either, Dave. Any Harbs I've heard (Compact 7s and their top, huge, standmount model, I forget the model number) have sounded nothing like 'pipe& slippers'. Indeed, neither did my Spendor SP100s, which are broadly similar, so it can only be the (poor choice) of partnering equipment making them sound that way!
Marco.
I never mentioned pipe and slippers...the SHL5 are good looking speakers, they are competent within their limitations. They are also very expensive for what they actually do, even bought second hand. I'm well aware some folk swear by them, that's their opinion, I have mine.
Lol... I wasn't replying to you, mate! Just making a general observation about (widely-reported forum views) on Harbeths and BBC designs in general, claiming all sorts that isn't true if they're used properly, and thus backing up Dave.
Most of it is misinformed bullshit, most likely formed due to bad dealer demos and/or flawed home ones.
Marco.
Very easy to do but I have had a demo of Richer's top of the range Cambridge system (amps and CD player) with some £1000 quid MS floorstanders and it wasn't even close to what I had then let alone what I have now. Total price was north of £4K. It was overwhelmingly average. Same goes for an Exposure/Elac system at another dealers. 3 grand of kit and it was totally meh.
And when you realise what you could have got for the same money, and sell it on, you have to bite the bullet on 50 to 70 percent depreciation. No thanks.
What makes me laugh is the fact that companies like Cambridge Audio use the same audio designers as high end companies, there being lots of top audio engineers working on a consultancy basis. So with brands like them you get very good equipment manufactured at very low cost and hence excellent value for money. They also work on smaller profit margins than hi-end dealers. Richer make 25% margin and certainly buy much more competitively.
The reason companies like Cambridge Audio are successful is because they make really good products that perform well and people like. The audio business has many such companies that have lasted decades and retained sensible prices. When I read a piece of equipment as being "rare" I assume that to mean it wasn't very good, or else more people would have bought it and it would not be rare. The same goes for kit from deceased companies - they obviously died for a reason.
So perhaps we should make the OP's life easier and recommend products from existing successful companies that have many thousands of users, little brand premium and efficient manufacturing. He can then enjoy buying new (which seems to be a crime on this forum), hopefully have no desire to sell, have good resale value for peace of mind and avoid becoming another frustrated audiophile. For those reasons I recommended Harbeth, Rega, Audiolab and Auralic. Audiolab are a bargain, but Auralic prices have recently shot up alarmingly.
That's the trouble with such questions on any forum - there are too many differing opinions and answers. Ask "what should I buy" and the OP is swamped with suggestions - some helpful, some not so.
Better than asking and getting no replies though ;)
So perhaps we should make the OP's life easier and recommend products from existing successful companies that have many thousands of users, little brand premium and efficient manufacturing. He can then enjoy buying new (which seems to be a crime on this forum), hopefully have no desire to sell, have good resale value for peace of mind and avoid becoming another frustrated audiophile. For those reasons I recommended Harbeth, Rega, Audiolab and Auralic. Audiolab are a bargain, but Auralic prices have recently shot up alarmingly.
Well this is an enthusiast's forum so not surprising that most of us are not recommending buying brand new for top whack since long experience has taught us that is not the way to get best bang for your buck. If someone chooses to go the mainstream route that us ultimately up to them, my only concern is that they are aware prior to making that decision that there are alternatives to doing that. It does requires some research/learning and a bit more effort, I grant you.
Michael loves music
05-12-2016, 13:59
Lets face it. If one is not worried about having something 'posh', a good system can be put together for hundreds, not thousands. I could definitely assemble a very nice sounding CD setup for less than £300.
Geoff what would be your nice sounding CD set up for less than £300 cheers mike
So many options. Dan's head must be spinning.
What thoughts have you formed so far Dan, are you getting a picture in your head about what you may be aiming for?
Haha, yes spinning, but thats not a negative. Its great to see all of this information. After getting all of my previous system ideas from What Hifi (which i thought was the be all and end all of hifi advice) I find it great how nothing in their recommended lists are popping up here.
The Edingdale speakers seem to be getting a positive response, so i think they will be my first investment in the next week.
Well this is an enthusiast's forum so not surprising that most of us are not recommending buying brand new for top whack since long experience has taught us that is not the way to get best bang for your buck. If someone chooses to go the mainstream route that us ultimately up to them, my only concern is that they are aware prior to making that decision that there are alternatives to doing that. It does requires some research/learning and a bit more effort, I grant you.
I had the same audio system for many years. When I decided to update it I bought mostly ex-demo, went through a few permutations. I now have two systems and everything was purchased new. I did get some deals from retailers/manufacturers. I have no intention of selling any of it. I have no regrets.
This is an enthusiasts' forum so I assume most people here buy with the expectation of selling. The OP just wants an audio system, would be happy to buy new and keep indefinitely. I wish I had been able to do that. He indicates he wants mainstream - in his first post he said Naim or Cyrus - so perhaps e should be recommended mainstream, a lot of which offers tremendous value for money. Perhaps the brand I have purchased most is TEAC, seriously good value.
I suspect he is on the wrong forum.
Haha, yes spinning, but thats not a negative. Its great to see all of this information. After getting all of my previous system ideas from What Hifi (which i thought was the be all and end all of hifi advice) I find it great how nothing in their recommended lists are popping up here.
The Edingdale speakers seem to be getting a positive response, so i think they will be my first investment in the next week.
I've been recommending mostly WhatHiFi favourites and best buys:
http://www.whathifi.com/cambridge-audio/azur-851a/review
http://www.whathifi.com/audiolab/m-dac-plus/review
http://www.whathifi.com/rega/elex-r/review
http://www.whathifi.com/atc/scm20asl-pro/review
As mentioned a few posts back, this is mostly an enthusiasts' forum (not me), so most of the recommendations are either vintage or little audiophile companies.
Someone did mention the £1,200 M2Tech DAC, but WhatHifi considered it worse than the £600 MDAC (a massive seller), and I use the £800 MDAC+ that is a big improvement.
http://www.whathifi.com/m2tech/young/review
walpurgis
05-12-2016, 15:20
The Edingdale speakers seem to be getting a positive response, so i think they will be my first investment in the next week.
Yes. They seem well liked by those who have heard them (I haven't).
I've no doubt they will be revealing of any inadequate equipment used ahead of them, so choose wisely. An amp with a clean, dynamic and smooth presentation may be what to look for.
I mentioned Quad and Creek amplifiers earlier. Try to find a dealer who can demonstrate these to you. Incidentally, both Creek and Quad make very good matching CD players.
.
walpurgis
05-12-2016, 15:23
Geoff what would be your nice sounding CD set up for less than £300 cheers mike
Well, that would be a Pioneer PD-S505 Precision CD player, with the inevitable Denon PMA-350SE amp and a pair of the early Mission 780SE speakers (not the different later ones).
I know very well what these items sound like and together, they would be extremely good.
.
IThis is an enthusiasts' forum so I assume most people here buy with the expectation of selling. The OP just wants an audio system, would be happy to buy new and keep indefinitely. I wish I had been able to do that. He indicates he wants mainstream - in his first post he said Naim or Cyrus - so perhaps e should be recommended mainstream, a lot of which offers tremendous value for money. Perhaps the brand I have purchased most is TEAC, seriously good value.
I suspect he is on the wrong forum.
Plenty of advice has been given for both brand new and used options, which is as it should be, so I think he is actually in the right place. How can a man make a good decision if he is not aware of all the options?
Exactly. Knowledge is power. Most people who are used to just buying mainstream equipment, and I'm sure Dan's no exception, are completely unaware of the bespoke 'enthusiast's option', hence why we point it out, as more often than not it also offers the highest 'SPPV' (Sound-Per-Pound Value) - and for most folks, that's a major factor!
Therefore, Dan is only being offered that information for his own consideration, as something he might not have thought of, rather than just blindly buying the 'latest and greatest' from a dealer, and often paying handsomely for it, mainly because someone has to fund their overheads... ;)
What we're saying is spend that cost on where it matters instead - 'under the hood' of the kit itself, by supporting a small, specialist manufacturer, and you'll often end up owing an amazing piece of equipment that sonically outperforms commercial stuff costing three or four times more!
Marco.
loveoscar
05-12-2016, 16:35
I have never heard Edingdales, but why do I see them up for sale all the time? Those Reference 3A's recommended earlier would certainly be the pick for me, alternatively go for a brand spanking new pair of NVA Cube 1's. Both of these speakers don't have complex crossovers and give you music like it should be heard. They're an easy load for amps and will work in 99% of rooms. I've got cube 3's, but have a smaller room than the op, and certainly won't be changing them. Speakers sorted. :lol:
Haha, yes spinning, but thats not a negative. Its great to see all of this information. After getting all of my previous system ideas from What Hifi (which i thought was the be all and end all of hifi advice) I find it great how nothing in their recommended lists are popping up here.
The Edingdale speakers seem to be getting a positive response, so i think they will be my first investment in the next week.
You are welcome to come here, have a cuppa and audition them, and the Regas and if you don't like them, don't buy them.
No worries at all.
brian2957
05-12-2016, 17:44
I've heard both these speakers and IMO they will probably be the last speakers you will ever buy .
Rich is a real gent into the bargain :)
Exactly. Knowledge is power. Most people who are used to just buying mainstream equipment, and I'm sure Dan's no exception, are completely unaware of the bespoke 'enthusiast's option', hence why we point it out, as more often than not it also offers the highest 'SPPV' (Sound-Per-Pound Value) - and for most folks, that's a major factor!
Therefore, Dan is only being offered that information for his own consideration, as something he might not have thought of, rather than just blindly buying the 'latest and greatest' from a dealer, and often paying handsomely for it, mainly because someone has to fund his overheads... ;)
What we're saying is spend that cost on where it matters instead - 'under the hood' of the kit itself, by supporting a small, specialist manufacturer, and you'll often end up owing an amazing piece of equipment that sonically outperforms commercial stuff costing three or four times more!
Marco.
It is indeed true that there is a lot of mainstream audio products that may seem overpriced.
However, NVA 80w monoblocks (NVA being a brand I'd not heard of till today) cost £1,300, whereas the Quad QSP delivers 160w and is cheaper at £1,200. Why? Because it is a proven design (sales in excess of 100,000 units) and manufactured efficiently in China. My 260w Quad QMP monoblocks cost only £1,500 new from a dealer. They also have the advantage of being fully balanced designs.
Small production hand-made is much more expensive and often a bad investment in that it is difficult to sell, mainly limited to other enthusiasts.
There is a lot of very high quality audio out there that is cheap not least due to the savings of mass production. I went bespoke and ended up back mass-market. The only bespoke I have is a Hattor passive pre-amp.
Harbeth is a good case. They sell in huge numbers, 95% export. They virtually never appear on the second-hand market, which is a measure of how good they are. When they do, they fetch about 75% of the new price.
In the last year I have sold a Quad 909 stereo, a pair of 909 mono's and a Naim UQ2. They all sold instantly. I could have sold them all 5 times in a week. I have a quality bespoke valve amp and I have had one sniff of interest in a year !!!
I sincerely hope the OP buys some reputable and good value mainstream audio products that he will enjoy for years to come without the thought of changing.
hughandella
05-12-2016, 18:16
Lots of ideas and that is good --- not sure I agree with many comments e.g. comparing price per watt seems ridiculous to me, I have had a fair bit of kit and i would say without doubt that NVA produce far superior amps to Quad for the money, it's only an opinion ofcourse but one I feel very confident would be shared by nearly all who had heard both -- i am also a tube fan but for first major foray (and £6k is that for sure (!) I would probably go solid state..... btw Quad QMP seem to be £1200 each ? NVA are priced as a pair ....
For what it is worth I would go with the following:
Innuos Zen Music Player - this is logitech/squeezebox/vortexbox based btw(server and hard drive with ripping direct to unit ) £700 new for base model
An upgraded PSU for Zen £200 ish
USB Dac *---- not a real fan of MDAC infact preferred MF M1 Dac which was cheaper --- but I'd be inclined to look with used or at good chinese Dac s (there are lots --- have one on order cost £250 with all upgrades )
Lindy premium USB cable £25 max
NVA P50 stepped attenuator passive pre £300
NVA monoblocks --- probably 50w and above suggest circa £750
The Reference 3a speakers for sale on here £1050
All cabling by NVA ---- LS5 or 6 a requirment for the speakers and the interconnects SSC/SSP are seriously good value ond obv work v well with amps, depending on runs needed say £250
In v unlikely event you dont like amps you can return in 30 days and try something else - but I think you'd keep them
all for £3,500 to £4,000 -- think it would be an excellent system and to op YES I am 100% certain it will be noticeably better than Cyrus, Naim etc (Quad too imho though i'd have Quad ahead of the other two !)
* a better DAC would be my own SW1X but I'm not sure if that is for sale as just being trialled and it seems wrong to offer my own kit (!) --- but if available for £500 I'd recommend that wholeheartedly without worrying
It is indeed true that there is a lot of mainstream audio products that may seem overpriced.
Not just "seem" but undoubtedly are - and I could list numerous examples, or instead just attend a hi-fi show these days and come home rather disappointed at what you've heard as representing the supposed 'best' of what's available today, together with being smugly happy that your 'bespoke enthusiast's' collection of motley boxes pisses all over it ;)
However, I do agree that there are some mainstream/commercial manufacturers out there who make some very good and worthwhile kit. In my experience though, they're in the minority.
However, NVA 80w monoblocks (NVA being a brand I'd not heard of till today) cost £1,300, whereas the Quad QSP delivers 160w and is cheaper at £1,200. Why? Because it is a proven design (sales in excess of 100,000 units) and manufactured efficiently in China. My 260w Quad QMP monoblocks cost only £1,500 new from a dealer. They also have the advantage of being fully balanced designs.
All good points. However, NVA isn't the only example of an 'enthusiast's product'. There are other manufacturers arguably making as good as or better kit for less. For example, Glenn Croft makes a valve preamp (point to point wired inside, full of quality components), with a built in high-quality phono stage, for £400 (unless the Basic has gone up, perhaps hifi dave could confirm?)
Bargain or what? :eek:
You've also got guys like Arkless Electronics and Firebottle, not to mention many others here, producing kit that sells for much less than even that of commercial manufacturers producing equipment in China, so there's plenty good reason for going that route, as opposed to the commercial one.
Small production hand-made is much more expensive and often a bad investment in that it is difficult to sell, mainly limited to other enthusiasts.
Yes that's true, but it tends to be of the ridiculous 'high-end' variety, often priced to attract folks who think that quality and exclusivity *must* come at a price. The reality is it doesn't have to. Also, unless you're an incurable box-swapper, the trick is to get it right first time, and thus hold onto what you buy and enjoy it for years. In that instance, sell-on value isn't so important.
In the last year I have sold a Quad 909 stereo, a pair of 909 mono's and a Naim UQ2. They all sold instantly. I could have sold them all 5 times in a week. I have a quality bespoke valve amp and I have had one sniff of interest in a year !!!
I totally understand where you're coming from, and you have a point, but like I said if something is *that good* in the first place, you won't want to sell it, and so what you've described above is a non-issue. For example, I've owned my Tube Distinctions (hand-built from scratch) valve power amp since 2009 (at a cost of £5k) and I have no intention of ever selling it, as commercially it would cost around £30K to better! ;)
I also enjoy owning something hand-built for me, and unique, that no-one else has got. You have to understand that for some people that is a BIG selling point.
Indeed my whole system (listed below in my signature) is full of such gear, but then I'm a 'buy it once and buy well' kind of guy, and then enjoy it and treasure it forever, which is probably mainly what the enthusiast's route is aimed at, than someone continually wanting to try all sorts of different kit, perhaps chasing something they'll never achieve.
I sincerely hope the OP buys some reputable and good value mainstream audio products that he will enjoy for years to come without the thought of changing.
Why? That sounds very anti the bespoke/enthusiast's route, which unfortunately is how you're coming across, almost as if you have a biased agenda. Are you a dealer or working for one?
Me? I sincerely hope that the OP buys *whatever* he thinks is best and fits the bill, regardless of whether it's a mainstream audio product or otherwise! :)
Marco.
Haha, yes spinning, but thats not a negative. Its great to see all of this information. After getting all of my previous system ideas from What Hifi (which i thought was the be all and end all of hifi advice) I find it great how nothing in their recommended lists are popping up here.
The Edingdale speakers seem to be getting a positive response, so i think they will be my first investment in the next week.
cant disagree with that..
heres what the Edingdales look like in action:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?47081-Member-s-System-Video-Thread-Please-Post-A-Video-Of-Yours!-)&p=795398#post795398
walpurgis
05-12-2016, 19:16
What are the main drive units in the Edingdales?
Mark Audio #6 drive units, sadly no longer in production.
http://www.markaudio.com/component/k2/itemlist/category/31-Raw-Drivers
Edingdale build thread here: http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3578
pgarrish
05-12-2016, 21:01
First question - do you mind buying used?
Second question - do you want to 'own' the music or are you happy 'renting' (i.e. streaming)
If you want new, I've no idea these days. I dont like many modern speakers as the sensibly priced stuff tends to have small drivers which I personally don't like much. So i'd go used or a mixture
If you want to buy music (CD and/or download) I would seriously suggest you buy a squeezebox/chromecast and a laptop/PC for £300-400, similar on a new Rotel/Pioneer/Yamaha/Marantz CDP. Then a decent integrated with DAC (Yamaha, Marantz or similar new) for £500 and pair of easy to drive big speakers like Tannoy, Dittons or similar for £500-£1000 depending on condition. Then buy shedloads of CDs and downloads. When you have listened to all the music you've bought, you'll still have a couple of grand left to upgrade something if you feel the need.
If you don't mind relying on streaming, I'd say buy a decent DAC - Rega, Audionote or Teac have sounded good to me, A chromecast to start with, £5 on an optical cable, a tisbury passive for £150, a big ol Quad 909 (or Crown dc300, Lyngdorf style power amp) and the speakers you like best for whats left of your budget minus £500 (you could get Paul at RFC to custom build something using HPDs...). Then get a spotify subscription for £10/month and run out of hours before you run out of music.
I know I go on about the chromecast but for £30 (or less a lot of the time) its the cheapest way into a limitless selection of music and it really does sound very good. For this chap looking to start from scratch its a risk free way to try streaming or downloads, its easy to set up and he can stick it in the kitchen with a pair of PC speakers when he wants something better in his main system.
Dan, you're not a million miles from me, my room is a bit bigger (9.5 x 7.5), and I use a similar system to what I suggest above, you're welcome to pop over and see what you think.
I sincerely hope the OP buys some reputable and good value mainstream audio products that he will enjoy for years to come without the thought of changing.
Why? That sounds very anti the bespoke/enthusiast's route, which unfortunately is how you're coming across, almost as if you have a biased agenda. Are you a dealer or working for one?
Me? I sincerely hope that the OP buys *whatever* he thinks is best and fits the bill, regardless of whether it's a mainstream audio product or otherwise! :)
Marco.
Marco, I think we agree on a lot.
With any hobby, whether fly fishing or cycling, take your pick, I would expect a novice to go to a fishing store or cycle shop and buy something sensible and mainstream and start to enjoy their hobby. They may never change a thing, or then learn a bit and get carbon fibre brakes, a specialist reel, etc. You see where I'm headed? I think the OP should learn at his own pace, but start with something mainstream that could last a lifetime but won't depreciate badly if he wants to sell. I reckon it took you a few years to understand, let alone purchase your kit. It fascinates me as I found most of it incomprehensible.
Members here may consider WhatHifi to be for sanitary use only, but if you're selling a DAC and it's a "Best Buy", believe me, it helps. Hence most of the things I suggested were favourably reviewed in WHF.
I have beautiful shiny bespoke valve monoblocks - boxed in my loft as they are not powerful enough. Gives me no pleasure.
I am not against bespoke. As I said, I use a Hattor passive pre-amp, made by Arek in Poland. All the paint fell off but it works a treat !!! I also use DNM speaker cables in both my systems, which are not exactly mainstream.
FWIW, I sold Quad 909 to replace with Quad QMP and the Naim UQ2 to replace with an Aries Mini. One an upgrade to balanced, the other a better device and one third the price. Sold the Quad and Naim for what I paid, benefit of a popular brand.
A chromecast to start with, £5 on an optical cable, ....
I also recommended Chromecast and have to say it is the best audio bargain bar none. Chromecast/MDAC+/ATC actives would be stellar (the MDAC+ has a good pre-amp).
One of my kids has Chromecast into Alessis actives and loves it. Cost £130 new. He uses the Spotify volume control.
Ok, fair enough. It's good to know the options available though, as it helps one make an informed decision. Therefore, we're here to facilitate that process, and to encourage a healthy dose of lateral thinking, as the 'obvious choices' will always remain, well, obvious... ;)
Marco.
I also recommended Chromecast and have to say it is the best audio bargain bar none. Chromecast/MDAC+/ATC actives would be stellar (the MDAC+ has a good pre-amp).
One of my kids has Chromecast into Alessis actives and loves it. Cost £130 new. He uses the Spotify volume control.
I have 3 Chromecasts, one on the TV hdmi socket which then outputs via the TV optical output to an Arcam DAC. Another on a mini system in the kitchen, for Radio Paradise via tunein app and another on my work desk which connects to my Audio Technica headphones for music whilst I work.
Ok, fair enough. It's good to know the options available though, as it helps one make an informed decision. Therefore, we're here to facilitate that process, and to encourage a healthy dose of lateral thinking, as the 'obvious choices' will always remain, well, obvious... ;)
Marco.
AOS is definitely good guidance for the audio alleyways, but you have to learn to walk before you run (and other metaphors)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
price. Sold the Quad and Naim for what I paid, benefit of a popular brand.
So you bought them second hand to begin with, you didn't pay top whack at a dealer, or you would have lost 30% plus on re-sale.
There seems to be some confusion between buying custom or boutique gear and buying mainstream gear second hand. I'm not advising against buying mainstream gear, I'm just advising against buying it brand new at full price. (If you can get a good discount, different matter). It doesn't make financial sense.
So you bought them second hand to begin with, you didn't pay top whack at a dealer, or you would have lost 30% plus on re-sale.
There seems to be some confusion between buying custom or boutique gear and buying mainstream gear second hand. I'm not advising against buying mainstream gear, I'm just advising against buying it brand new at full price. (If you can get a good discount, different matter). It doesn't make financial sense.
It does seem that the remaining high street audio dealers are very defensive of their profit margins. Black Friday, which is massive in the USA, is becoming bigger in the UK, but the audio offers I saw were few and far between.
There are dealers who give discounts. They seem under a lot of pressure not to. One obvious way is to give over-priced part exchange. I have only bought modern units from dealers, either new or ex-demo. I have never paid full retail, either getting a discount or buying on a special discount day. The Naim UQ2 was bought from a guy off a forum. It was unused and he had not even registered the warranty. I made a one third saving.
The best deal I ever got was a TEAC NP-H750 and CD-H750 combo as shelf stock from Richer Sounds for £220. Boxed with warranty, and when it malfunctioned they got it repaired with no hassles at all.
Quad is a different slightly matter. I bought my 909 stereo and 909 monos both from Quad main dealers in Holland and Germany. They were one owner trade-ins and were sent to me via Quad for a service. I found them through audio-markt, but I knew the German dealer as he is the Harbeth main dealer and is a regular on the Harbeth User Group.
So I've always bought with peace of mind that I have a warranty or recourse, without paying full retail, and still contributing to dealer profits.
I would not expect Richer Sounds to give discounts on request as they work on high tighter profit margins.
Hopefully this may assist the OP in his negotiations!
hughandella
06-12-2016, 11:05
Just looking up the word 'smug'
Anyway moving on ......a nice Croft 25 pre has come up for sale on another forum --- that plus the Ref 3A would be a great start ---- you really dont need to get caught up in watts for watts sake -- I have a reasonable sized room and 25watts is plenty with 88db speakers ---- 50 maybe better and even 70 or 80 per channel but 100+ seems OTT unless your speakers are very inefficient or have loads of drivers and a complex crossover
OP's head must be spinning by now :eek:
OP's head must be spinning by now :eek:
Maybe the OP was correct all along. The Naim UnitiAtom is very pretty indeed at £1,750. 40w should drive the Edingale speakers.
The UnitiAtom is a redesigned UnitiQute2 (£1,300 last time I looked), but oh boy is it an improvement. Flashing lights, lovely remote. Spotify and Tidal onboard (regrettably still no Qobuz)
https://andreweverard.com/2016/10/06/naim-not-just-a-new-uniti-but-a-complete-new-uniti-range/
Rather embarrassing for Naim that they set launch prices and have increased then for 2017 before the units are even available (Uniti Star launched at £2,999, will first be available at £3,445).
IMO Naim is overpriced and it still comes back to the losses you encounter if you sell on when you bought new. With his sort of budget, the idea of a Uniti Atom is depressing. It's the sort of choice you'd expect Alan Partridge to make.
walpurgis
06-12-2016, 12:02
IMO Naim is overpriced and it still comes back to the losses you encounter if you sell on when you bought new. With his sort of budget, the idea of a Uniti Atom is depressing. It's the sort of choice you'd expect Alan Partridge to make.
Even very old Naim gear is vastly over priced for some mysterious reason. It has a following that I've never quite understood (bit like Linn).
Just looking up the word 'smug'
That's a bit unfair. Nothing wrong with getting a good deal. It's the mug punters who push up prices and made crap like Amstrad possible.
walpurgis
06-12-2016, 12:28
That's a bit unfair. Nothing wrong with getting a good deal. It's the mug punters who push up prices and made crap like Amstrad possible.
I guess Bose are the modern Amstrad to a degree. Cater to the 'know nothing' masses and spout phoney science.
The terms "Direct Reflecting" and "Wave System" spring to mind. They are just hype. In the first instance reflected sound speakers were around before Bose ever existed and in the second, a truncated transmission line is nothing new either. Check the B&W DM2 amongst others.
Stlll. If you like overpriced, mass produced plastic boxes with cheap internals, it's the way to go! :rolleyes:
MrRadish
06-12-2016, 13:45
Well, that would be a Pioneer PD-S505 Precision CD player, with the inevitable Denon PMA-350SE amp and a pair of the early Mission 780SE speakers (not the different later ones).
I know very well what these items sound like and together, they would be extremely good.
+1
To the OP: I've found solid state sources to be much better than CD players on average, but the Pioneers are among the better spinners. For a source I'd recommend the Bluesound Vault 2 as it will rip, store and play back all your CDs and is much simpler to set up than a separate ripping PC, NAS and source (although that's what I ended up with). If I was doing it again I'd just get the Vault. It needs a wired ethernet connection to your router and a tablet or phone to control it, but apart from that it's as easy as pie. The Chromecast may well be good too but it's a different sort of device.
With the Bluesound you'd want to connect a decent DAC and external volume control as the one built in is 'adequate' but not outstanding. As a digital source the Node 2 saw off every CD player I have and matched my blinged out music server too.
For speakers I had the Harbeth P3ESR and whilst they were brilliant for vocals and simple music they never rocked my boat. I ended up watching Netflix a lot on that system and only listened to music in my study, which sucks when considering how much the main system cost. I've now replaced them with Sonus Faber, which are much more enjoyable though probably not as accurate. Definitely worth a listen.
IMO Naim is overpriced and it still comes back to the losses you encounter if you sell on when you bought new. With his sort of budget, the idea of a Uniti Atom is depressing. It's the sort of choice you'd expect Alan Partridge to make.
I had the Naim UnitiQute2. It was a really good unit and worked very well. I paid £800 for it, effectively new. I sold it for £825 when it was over 2 years old and when it retailed for £1,250. I think a 34% loss from full retail over 2+ years is not that much at all.
The UnitiQute2 had preamp outputs and after 9 months I stuck a Quad 909 on it. It obviously improved the sound quality, but was a bit of overkill. They have sensibly put preouts on the Atom as well.
When I got back into audio the first things I bought were a Linn DS and 2200 amplifier. I think I paid 30% below retail ex-demo from main dealers. I sold both quickly, the DS for a £50 profit and the dealer took the amp back at the same price. People here may not like Linn or Naim, but they have good, quick resale values.
If I had to look at hifi, I would be very happy to look at the Uniti Atom. I think it's excellent. As it is, all my hifi is in a closed unit so I don't have to look at it at all.
+1
To the OP: I've found solid state sources to be much better than CD players on average, but the Pioneers are among the better spinners. For a source I'd recommend the Bluesound Vault 2 as it will rip, store and play back all your CDs and is much simpler to set up than a separate ripping PC, NAS and source (although that's what I ended up with). If I was doing it again I'd just get the Vault. It needs a wired ethernet connection to your router and a tablet or phone to control it, but apart from that it's as easy as pie. The Chromecast may well be good too but it's a different sort of device.
With the Bluesound you'd want to connect a decent DAC and external volume control as the one built in is 'adequate' but not outstanding. As a digital source the Node 2 saw off every CD player I have and matched my blinged out music server too.
For speakers I had the Harbeth P3ESR and whilst they were brilliant for vocals and simple music they never rocked my boat. I ended up watching Netflix a lot on that system and only listened to music in my study, which sucks when considering how much the main system cost. I've now replaced them with Sonus Faber, which are much more enjoyable though probably not as accurate. Definitely worth a listen.
Although Dave says he sells more Harbeth than everything else put together, I think he is quite keen on the sound quality of Sonus Faber's more recent offerings. Apparently they went through a bad patch some years ago. Personally, I think they look fabulous.
I listen mostly on P3ESR, very close up in my home office. Work very well for that, but far too small scale for the OP's large room.
That's a bit unfair. Nothing wrong with getting a good deal. It's the mug punters who push up prices and made crap like Amstrad possible.
No one's mentioned to the OP going to hifi shows. Hate them myself, sound usually poor, but you can get to see stuff and aesthetics are often a big issue.
That said, I went to one and saw a turntable on a manufacturer's stand. I ended up buying one about 6 months later, from them direct. A real sweetener (which he offered, I didn't ask) was that he got me a superb arm from anther manufacturer at trade price, effectively selling it on to me with no profit by us agreeing an all-in price.
So another great deal, everyone happy and I take no credit. The most expensive thing I've bought and to prove I will never sell it, I've thrown away the box.
hughandella
06-12-2016, 15:02
I really don't see the point of a new guy coming to the forum and asking for advice from people based on their experience -- those who have owned possibly many systems and have learned from their early 'mistakes' ( I too was offfered only Linn or Naim from my local 'hi fi' dealer years ago ) and the best we can do is offer the same old tired recommendations that the dealers would - dealers who are paid to sell and peddle the established order ---- if Naim Linn and Cyrus are the best we can recommend we are doing the guy a disservice ---- you dont have to go to the most esoteric of designers to get a significantly better result .... Croft, NVA et al are hardly secrets or if you prefer Sugden, Densen & Rega are all far superior than the likes suggested for amps .... Naim Linn and Cyrus are marketing successes over audio successes I would argue in general --- yes they do win awards bit to think that this is not directly related to the advertising revenue they offer to the magazines is naive to say the least .... I think the op came here for audio advice, the alternative can easily be found in magazines .....Put it this way I can guarantee if the buyer does end up with a new Naim or Linn system and tires of it (as he likley will because they sound so forced to most ears once outside of the shop ) he will return to the dealer and be told it sounds like that because he needs another power supply etc etc or the latest massively overpriced interconnect or power cable ... he can avoid this with a little guidance --- if he then chooses to spend funds on those extras that is his choice but atleast he'll be starting from a good base .... I'd put magazines at worst end of this but unfortuantely some dealers are also so entwined with certain manufacturers that they can't or won't offer impartial advice --- this forum can attempt this ---- there will be disagreements over what is best and there will be some politics too no doubt but I think most will try their honest best without any financial bias ....
What about this?
On a computing forum I'm on theres often "spec me" threads, and usual response is a kit list for the given budget.
In our case maybe an aditional quick note about what type of music they enjoy and why their choice would be good for it.
Nice n simple.
Maybe more useful for the OP to look at bullet-lists of recommended kit for his budget than wade through discussion someone new to the game might not follow as well.
Just a thought.
Some good points but the thing is this isn't rocket science. It is enough that one is aware that there are multiple options beyond just going to a dealer or reading the magazines. After that any educated person can make up their own mind about where to go, and will ask questions as appropriate.
Without that even the smartest bloke is likely to walk into the nearest dealer and ask to buy the usual overpriced, over-rated suspects, and won't even bargain for a discount because he doesn't know how it all works/ or thinks that is how you buy hi-fi, period.
My advice re reading the magazines is not to go anywhere near them until you have purchased and are happy with your system. Only then is it safe to read their reviews of the kit you have bought.
Some good points but the thing is this isn't rocket science. It is enough that one is aware that there are multiple options beyond just going to a dealer or reading the magazines. After that any educated person can make up their own mind about where to go, and will ask questions as appropriate.
Without that even the smartest bloke is likely to walk into the nearest dealer and ask to buy the usual overpriced, over-rated suspects, and won't even bargain for a discount because he doesn't know how it all works/ or thinks that is how you buy hi-fi, period.
My advice re reading the magazines is not to go anywhere near them until you have purchased and are happy with your system. Only then is it safe to read their reviews of the kit you have bought.
You are basically excluding about 95% of audio products that are available on the market today, including brands like Pioneer, Onkyo, TEAC and Cambridge Audio that all make some excellent and very competitively priced kit.
So if the OP should not read magazines or go to retailers, what should he actually do?
As someone who until 2011 had not been to an audio store or read an audio magazine for 13 years, I can say it is not easy at all to make a sensible decision.
Probably the best value you will get is from a company like Pioneer that does its own distribution and sells either through Richer Sounds, who mark up about half the amount of hi-end dealers, or sell on Amazon (who take about 18%). On the corporate side, Pioneer just about break even.
These two units, an integrated and a streamer cost under £700 in total. Harbeth said they use this streamer as their in-house music source and I've come across a few people more than happy with the A30 amplifer.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pioneer-30-K-70W-Stereo-Amplifier/dp/B0082JFK10
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pioneer-N-50A-K-streamers-Type-Aluminium/dp/B00O8SLY6O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1481045379&sr=8-1&keywords=pioneer+n70a
And they will be delivered to the OP's door. With the Edingdale speakers he will have an excellent starter system for £1,400 and £4,600 to go on music and concerts.
Reading magazines in the UK is the worst thing a budding audio nut can base decisions on. They are inherently biased to the advertisers, especially WTF. Forums, enthusiast sites and real listening experiences, in your own room, are much better routes.
If we had a poll here: "Buy used specialist kit" or "buy mainstream kit new" I reckon almost nobody would think the latter was the best way to get the best SPPV.
I would only buy new gear these days if I had a 100% value trade up policy, and was on an upgrade path, or if the product was just so niche that second hand models were impossible to find. There are a few manufacturers and dealers out there that would do trade ups, like LFD4U and NVA.
walpurgis
06-12-2016, 18:07
If we had a poll here: "Buy used specialist kit" or "buy mainstream kit new" I reckon almost nobody would think the latter was the best way to get the best SPPV.
Probably. Most of my stuff has been second hand, but I have spent a few grand on new bits in the past.
The only items bought new that I still have are a ZYX MC and my Meridian 507.
There again, I rather like vintage gear. Not likely to find that new. :)
You are basically excluding about 95% of audio products that are available on the market today, including brands like Pioneer, Onkyo, TEAC and Cambridge Audio that all make some excellent and very competitively priced kit.
So if the OP should not read magazines or go to retailers, what should he actually do?
.
He should ask the question on an audio forum. Which he has. Even if he ultimately ignores all the advice and comment he still knows more now than he would by just talking to a dealer or reading a magazine. And don't get me wrong Richer Sounds are great, bought loads there over the years, but never met a member of staff who was over 25 or who had experience of hi-fi beyond what they sell.
There are good dealers but they all have to think about putting food on the table. We don't, our only interest is that the o/p is put in the best possible position to make his choices. Our only reward is to see him happy with his choices.
The Pioneer stuff you linked to I'm sure is okay for a youngster starting out on a budget, and who won't consider buying used as he wants it all waranteed just in case, but if I was happy to spend into the thousands and wanted something above the average, I wouldn't even consider it.
Depends on what it is and if your getting a decent ammount off. Ive noticed that big volume buyers give a much better price than the manufactures own web shops more often than not so there is a need to shop around price wise. Headphones are an example, and Ive found many Im interested in that the second hand ebay price is as high or higher than the likes of amazons new price. Bought a set of earbuds so far and intend getting a full set too, akg seem to be the best for discounts at moment and look decent. there web site though shows poor prices.
So if your going to go dealer or high street, than do your homework, and dont just believe the biggies reviews too; they are often very biased.
I suppose it depends on whether you see buying a hi-fi the same as if you were buying a toaster or a washing machine. You want something that does job, you want a good one and you intend to get it all done in an afternoon. I think buying a hi-fi system needs a lot more thought than that.
I suppose it depends on whether you see buying a hi-fi the same as if you were buying a toaster or a washing machine. You want something that does job, you want a good one and you intend to get it all done in an afternoon. I think buying a hi-fi system needs a lot more thought than that.
I was suggesting if you kinda know what you want already. dont just buy from the local dealer coz he is there; make sure you get a good deal. A good one will give you one plus some stuff flung in. poor ones will probably say thats the price, if you dont want then piss off:)
. poor ones will probably say thats the price, if you dont want then piss off:)
There used to be a lot of them, I wonder happened there? Mine wouldn't let me have anything on home dem, even for a couple of hours, even if I put down the purchase price in cash.
hughandella
06-12-2016, 18:50
a pair of Croft monoblocks on sale on here now ... just saying !!!
Anyway I think the op has plenty to consider now ( too much in all likelihood) .... think I for one will leave him alone now :)
Innuos > NVA or Croft > Auditorium he whispers and leaves
The Pioneer stuff you linked to I'm sure is okay for a youngster starting out on a budget, and who won't consider buying used as he wants it all waranteed just in case, but if I was happy to spend into the thousands and wanted something above the average, I wouldn't even consider it.
Well, the streamer is used in house by one of the most successful UK owned hifi companies and in one case the Pioneer A30 replaced an expensive Leben amplifier that probably cost 10 times as much.
The reality is that audio is now almost entirely digital and incredibly cheap.
Who would have thought 10 years ago that it would be possible to send CD-quality 16/44 music from a phone to a device that costs £28 at Tesco (the Chromecast was £18 on Black Friday) that can be plugged into the 3.5mm jack of a pair of active speakers and you have audiophile quality music?
I use the Auralic Aries streamers in both my systems. The Aries Mini is more than sufficient and has control point software you can only dream of, as well as a thoroughly good DAC and volume control. Again, all that is needed is an amp and speakers. The thing cost me £300 new (although it is now £450), is the size of a 2-CD case and still has room for a 2.5" disc drive to be put inside.
The OP said £6,000 and then started talking Naim and Cyrus. He's looking at spending £650 on a pair of speakers. So he should blow the rest on electronics? If there is anything he can gain from this discussion is that an apparent preconception that you have to spend a lot of money is wrong.
Incidentally, WhatHifi have never reviewed an Auralic product, but the main dealer often can't get them quick enough, they are so popular. Jason Kennedy recently gave it a Best Buy and compares it to MrRadish's Bluesound Node.
http://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/auralic-aries-mini-network-streamer-and-dac
The Pioneer N-50A was their 2015 Best Buy for good reason.
http://www.whathifi.com/pioneer/n-50a/review
The Bluesound Node as recommended above by MrRadish was a Best Buy in 2014
http://www.whathifi.com/bluesound/node/review
If we had a poll here: "Buy used specialist kit" or "buy mainstream kit new" I reckon almost nobody would think the latter was the best way to get the best SPPV.
I don't know what you mean by "Speclalist" or "Mainstream". So to help the OP (and me), here's a few including the obvious brands. An M or S against each would help.
Linn
Naim
Quad
Rega
Auralic
NVA
LFD
Harbeth
Edingdale
PMC
Croft
Chord
Audiolab
Bluesound
Chromecast
Pioneer
Onkyo
TEAC/TASCAM
Yamaha
Spendor
Stirling Broadcast
PS Audio
Mogami
DNM
walpurgis
06-12-2016, 19:13
I suppose it depends on whether you see buying a hi-fi the same as if you were buying a toaster or a washing machine. You want something that does job, you want a good one and you intend to get it all done in an afternoon. I think buying a hi-fi system needs a lot more thought than that.
Took me thirty years to work out what I really wanted. :)
Agree audio is now digital and quality, if implemented correctly, is cheap. I'm using a used budget Sony SACD player, cost fifty quid, not the last word but it doesn't give that much away to the serious efforts. If I'd never heard better I'd be more than happy.
Agree that Dan need not spend all his budget unless he really thinks it necessary. I don't know what heights he intends to scale. Possibly he doesn't either.
Agree audio is now digital and quality, if implemented correctly, is cheap. I'm using a used budget Sony SACD player, cost fifty quid, not the last word but it doesn't give that much away to the serious efforts. If I'd never heard better I'd be more than happy.
Agree that Dan need not spend all his budget unless he really thinks it necessary. I don't know what heights he intends to scale. Possibly he doesn't either.
Agree 100%.
Just hacked off that my Sony SACD player cost me £90 (Richer Sounds Holborn).
I think one of the most important elements is the power supply configuration in the DAC. One brute noisy power supply to all components will inevitably introduce noise and reduce resolution. Multiple power supplies delivering the correct voltage will reduce noise.
This is not rocket science, just to say that 5 years ago a DAC with such an arrangement cost £2,500, a similar design can now be had for £800. It's the lowest common denominator, as probably also applies to MC transformers and phono stages generally, dealing with the smallest voltages and greatest amplification.
That probably explains why vinyl should be avoided. It requires amplification of a signal starting at ±1mv to be amplified say 20,000 times in total. It can be done, it's just very expensive requiring precision equipment to do it well.
How the Chromecast sounds so good I shall never know.
MrRadish
06-12-2016, 19:52
The OP needs to decide whether to stick with CD, rip his CDs and stream them, ignore his CDs and stream everything over the net, or buy a turntable. That choice is more about convenience and useability than sound quality but it affects everything he buys except the speakers. For example there's no point recommending the Vault, which takes a grand out of his budget, if he only has 20 CDs. If he has a thousand CDs then he needs to decide whether to spend the (long) time ripping them or just listen to the same tracks over Spotify or Tidal. If he's happy sticking with digital then modern DACs can work well as Preamps so he only needs a DAC and power amp. If he's definitely going to include a turntable in future then he'll need a preamp or integrated with a phono stage so his choice of DAC is a little broader as he doesn't need a volume control on the DAC itself (but he'll have less money to spend on everything else). The last question is whether he needs a remote control for volume and input selection, as that will also affect his choices.
I'd say CDs are a dying breed but there are lots of grognards like me who always prefer a physical copy of music in case the artist pulls their recordings from streaming services. If I've paid for it I want a physical copy of it. :-) Even if I rip everything to a NAS I keep the CDs as back up, apart from the few old ones that rotted away. I also have a turntable and records, but that's a love/hate relationship because of the space it takes up and the need for a preamp and phono stage. DAC direct is so much easier. If you don't have a turntable yet then I would say don't bother starting. The only reason I keep mine is because I like watching the records go round - if I can be bothered to set it up. My digital sounds better than vinyl now I've got some decent mains filtering in place.
The OP needs to decide whether to stick with CD, rip his CDs and stream them, ignore his CDs and stream everything over the net, or buy a turntable. That choice is more about convenience and useability than sound quality but it affects everything he buys except the speakers. For example there's no point recommending the Vault, which takes a grand out of his budget, if he only has 20 CDs. If he has a thousand CDs then he needs to decide whether to spend the (long) time ripping them or just listen to the same tracks over Spotify or Tidal. If he's happy sticking with digital then modern DACs can work well as Preamps so he only needs a DAC and power amp. If he's definitely going to include a turntable in future then he'll need a preamp or integrated with a phono stage so his choice of DAC is a little broader as he doesn't need a volume control on the DAC itself (but he'll have less money to spend on everything else). The last question is whether he needs a remote control for volume and input selection, as that will also affect his choices.
I'd say CDs are a dying breed but there are lots of grognards like me who always prefer a physical copy of music in case the artist pulls their recordings from streaming services. If I've paid for it I want a physical copy of it. :-) Even if I rip everything to a NAS I keep the CDs as back up, apart from the few old ones that rotted away. I also have a turntable and records, but that's a love/hate relationship because of the space it takes up and the need for a preamp and phono stage. DAC direct is so much easier. If you don't have a turntable yet then I would say don't bother starting. The only reason I keep mine is because I like watching the records go round - if I can be bothered to set it up. My digital sounds better than vinyl now I've got some decent mains filtering in place.
Very sage advice indeed. You remind me - I lied - I paid full price for a PS Audio P3 power plant. Buy and forget. Power supplies are important to digital, hence I recommended an SBooster external PSU to the Aries Mini in my first post recommended system.
Last music I bought was £15.99 to download in 16/44 or £45 on CD. Easy decision.
MrRadish
06-12-2016, 20:42
Very sage advice indeed. You remind me - I lied - I paid full price for a PS Audio P3 power plant. Buy and forget. Power supplies are important to digital, hence I recommended an SBooster external PSU to the Aries Mini in my first post recommended system.
I've tried to sell my P3 three times now as I'd rather spend the money on something else, and I still have a balanced transformer in place, but every time I remove it I only last a few hours before it goes back in again. I think I'm just going to treat it as a permanent fixture. :-) I've also been looking at the SBooster for my Caiman 2 in the study as its a filtered PSU, but at the moment the SMPS is running off the AG500 (along with the PC) so I'm not sure there's much point. It's on the 'to-buy' list though. Maybe one day all equipment will use virtual batteries and I won't need all these extra boxes. I know, thats a pipe dream... I'm very curious to try an old Technics virtual battery system though and see how well that fares, but I suspect age will have taken its toll and the cost of re-capping it all will be prohibitive.
I've tried to sell my P3 three times now as I'd rather spend the money on something else, and I still have a balanced transformer in place, but every time I remove it I only last a few hours before it goes back in again. I think I'm just going to treat it as a permanent fixture. :-) I've also been looking at the SBooster for my Caiman 2 in the study as its a filtered PSU, but at the moment the SMPS is running off the AG500 (along with the PC) so I'm not sure there's much point. It's on the 'to-buy' list though. Maybe one day all equipment will use virtual batteries and I won't need all these extra boxes. I know, thats a pipe dream... I'm very curious to try an old Technics virtual battery system though and see how well that fares, but I suspect age will have taken its toll and the cost of re-capping it all will be prohibitive.
Auralic sold the Aries PSU (power supply unit for the benefit if the OP, a linear power supply rather than a noisy switch mode power supply (SMPS)) for £500. When they realised everyone bought the SBooster for £235, they brought the price down to £250.
I assume a balanced transformer is intended to reduce noise in the same way as a balanced/difference amplifier. People argue about conditioners or regenerators like the PS (for the OP - it takes mains AC, converts to DC and back to clean AC). I just find the P3 does a good job and forget it.
Regeneration is I believe much more important in the USA, such units are almost de rigeur due to far less dependable AC supplies than we get over here. So in the USA they are used as much for voltage stabilisation, even though most electronics can work ±10v.
As I said earlier, OP should consider the importance of power supply to the DAC and streamer. It is built in the MDAC+ for a ridiculously cheap £200 increment to the MDAC, and best to get an external one for the streamer.
Again for the benefit of the OP, small voltages are at most risk from electrical noise and some people prefer battery powered systems, completely free of mains power, especially in phono amplifiers as noted earlier. So MrRadish makes a good very point. The other approach is to make much cleaner SMPS's. The problem with many computer music sources are noisy SMPS's, although I believe there are people who can adapt things like Mac Mini's to linear power supplies. That sounds like reinventing the wheel to me, why not just get a 12v streamer and external PSU.
Devialet publish a load of questionable stuff (ADH sounds like a current dumper amp to me using Class D instead of Class B), but page 4 explains their low noise SMPS approach.
http://en.devialet.com/assets/Uploads/D-Premier-White-Paper-Munich.pdf
I don't know what you mean by "Speclalist" or "Mainstream". So to help the OP (and me), here's a few including the obvious brands. An M or S against each would help.
Linn - M
Naim - M
Quad - M
Rega - M
Auralic - S
NVA - S [in some cases, Special Needs :eyebrows:]
LFD - S
Harbeth - S
Edingdale - S
PMC - M
Croft - S
Chord - M
Audiolab - M
Bluesound - Don't know it.
Chromecast - M
Pioneer - M
Onkyo - M
TEAC/TASCAM - M
Yamaha - M
Spendor - in between the two.
Stirling Broadcast - S
PS Audio - M
Mogami - M
DNM - S
Hope that helps :cool:
Marco.
walpurgis
06-12-2016, 23:40
I see Sugden and Meridian are missing.
hughandella
07-12-2016, 00:56
Auralic sold the Aries PSU (power supply unit for the benefit if the OP, a linear power supply rather than a noisy switch mode power supply (SMPS)) for £500. When they realised everyone bought the SBooster for £235, they brought the price down to £250.
I assume a balanced transformer is intended to reduce noise in the same way as a balanced/difference amplifier. People argue about conditioners or regenerators like the PS (for the OP - it takes mains AC, converts to DC and back to clean AC). I just find the P3 does a good job and forget it.
Regeneration is I believe much more important in the USA, such units are almost de rigeur due to far less dependable AC supplies than we get over here. So in the USA they are used as much for voltage stabilisation, even though most electronics can work ±10v.
As I said earlier, OP should consider the importance of power supply to the DAC and streamer. It is built in the MDAC+ for a ridiculously cheap £200 increment to the MDAC, and best to get an external one for the streamer.
Again for the benefit of the OP, small voltages are at most risk from electrical noise and some people prefer battery powered systems, completely free of mains power, especially in phono amplifiers as noted earlier. So MrRadish makes a good very point. The other approach is to make much cleaner SMPS's. The problem with many computer music sources are noisy SMPS's, although I believe there are people who can adapt things like Mac Mini's to linear power supplies. That sounds like reinventing the wheel to me, why not just get a 12v streamer and external PSU.
Devialet publish a load of questionable stuff (ADH sounds like a current dumper amp to me using Class D instead of Class B), but page 4 explains their low noise SMPS approach.
http://en.devialet.com/assets/Uploads/D-Premier-White-Paper-Munich.pdf
I dont have one but have heard only praise for this --- if Op does decide to spend full budget this is worth serious consideration http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NVA-BMU-balanced-mains-unit-/272123586316?hash=item3f5bd43ffc:g:vfkAAASwRLZT8Mc 5
I dont have one but have heard only praise for this --- if Op does decide to spend full budget this is worth serious consideration http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NVA-BMU-balanced-mains-unit-/272123576316?hash=item3f5bd43ffc:g:vfkAAOSwRLZT8Mc 5
The NVA BMU was discussed here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?35171-BMU-Safety-issues
The final point at the very end is that it doesn't really work, and MrRadish came to the same view with his balanced mains transformer.
Hope that helps :cool:
Marco.
Yes it does, thanks, Marco.
I was after an idea of what might be considered mainstream = overpriced and generally not worth considering.
So my Quad and Audiolab are going in the bin.
Auralic get a "Specialist". I would think there are one of the least specialist of all. I know the main dealer, Audio Emotion, he sells thousands of units, and they sell well all over the world.
Stirling Broadcast and Harbeth are both "Specialist", correct in that their products are very similar, but Harbeth is a globally recognised brand in both consumer and pro audio and sell many thousands of units every year. I reckon that makes them mainstream. If so, the highly regarded Stirling Broadcast LS3/5a is OK as specialist but not the Harbeth P3ESR.
Croft may be limited by production capacity, but it gets great write-ups in mainstream press like Stereophile and I understand sells well where distributed.
In response to Geoff, Meridian might be considered "specialist" because it is so expensive few people can afford it.
Likewise, DcS would be considered specialist, but it is the best hifi I have ever heard in my life. (OP - don't worry, you can't afford it.)
What this indicates to me is that items like the Pioneer N50-A are excluded by preconceived false categorisation that says a £350 steamer/DAC must be rubbish if mass-produced by a large corporate beast like Pioneer and sold at full retail price online.
So actually we are in a position of trying to advise the OP to filter his selection by "mainstream" or "specialist", which mean different things to different people.
loveoscar
07-12-2016, 07:24
Well I guess the op's head must be really spinning now, probably wished he'd not started this thread although it been great fun for everyone else to spend his money.
So actually we are in a position of trying to advise the OP to filter his selection by "mainstream" or "specialist", which mean different things to different people.
Absolutely. I just filled in your list for a bit of fun! It's largely a question of perception, based on your experience of the companies concerned :)
However, true "specialist", for me, is the likes of the 'one-man band' traders have here, producing all manner of superb kit, which few folk who don't read forums would ever have heard of. And *that* is where the real SPPV lies... ;)
Marco.
jandl100
07-12-2016, 08:55
Dan the OP hasn't posted for a while -- we've probably scared him off and he's retreated to the WTF forum where he'll get a more focused concensus. :lol:
My short term reccie for him would be to take up the couple of kind offers from AOSers local to him to pop over and have a listen to their systems. Then he'll have a better handle on what is achievable and whether he thinks it's worth the effort and expenditure. :thumbsup:
-- and then go to the Wigwam "do" in March.
Spectral Morn
07-12-2016, 09:37
Dan, I am not going to read the thread, I don't need to. Decide how much you would like to, can spend. Identify the features you would like to have and then find the brands that do that and that you can hear in a dealers demo room and then very importantly in your home listening room - good dealers will allow you to do that.
I am sure all the posts on this thread are well meaning, but unless you can hear the kit, in your home and before hand to see what works for your listening taste, and kit that works well together you risk wasting your money. I am afraid that you need to go down the traditional purchase path other wise risk getting a system that doesn't work right (system room synergy can only be found out in your room with the actual system in the room) and doesn't reproduce your music to meet your listening bias, end result frustration, and money thrown away.
I urge you strongly to go the above route and not take blind pot shots in the dark.
MrRadish
07-12-2016, 10:05
The NVA BMU was discussed here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?35171-BMU-Safety-issues
The final point at the very end is that it doesn't really work, and MrRadish came to the same view with his balanced mains transformer.
No, its not that simple. There are various things that can go wrong with the mains supply such as DC offset, different types of noise, distortion and over/under voltage. My current BMU is essential in that it's the only 'filter' I've found that cleans all the noise off the mains. Not all of them do though - the Furman I have and Equi=tech include additional filters to deal with high frequency noise, but my basic Airlink transformer didn't so I had to daisy chain it off another filter (which worked fine). The conditioning transformers they sell might do the same thing but I've not investigated those.
The problem is that every filter introduces its own problems or limitations so there's a limit to how many you can use and what you use them for. My Furman BMU coincidentally raises the output voltage by 10v, bumping my mains supply up to 260v most of the time. Even on my UK made and regulated equipment that causes a slight stridency to creep in and I daren't try any foreign made equipment at that voltage. I therefore need to use the P3 to drop the voltage back down to 240v, which brings a noticeable improvement and lets me use foreign kit that only expects 230v, give or take. Using the P3 does however limit the size of amp I can plug into it without sqeezing dynamics. It's very good in that regard but a couple of amps I've tried were a little curtailed (but still sounded better like that than plugged into the mains).
The BMU is therefore here to stay unless I can find something equally successful without the voltage issues, and that means the P3 is here to stay to compensate for it. I should probably add that the Airlink BPS2000 I had wasn't big enough for the P3 and curtailed that (and everything plugged into it), so the Furman came in instead which I can barely lift! The BPS2000 was fine when driving equipment directly and only raised the voltage by 2v. All this complexity is why I'm now looking for self filtering equipment that I can just plug into the mains.
And yes, we may have scared the OP away by now, but this is all stuff he may have to consider when his shiny new system sounds flat, grey and boring at teatime but then sounds great later at night. :eek:
If I started again I'd ask Airlink to make me two conditioning balanced transformers with 240v input and 220v output and then run them off each leg of my little Furman AC-210. That would give me six sockets across two banks without voltage problems. The only question then would be whether I could find somewhere to put them where they were at least 12 inches away from any other electrical gear to avoid intereference (the other issue with BMUs).
The NVA BMU was discussed here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?35171-BMU-Safety-issues
I remember that thread. ISTR it consisted mostly of scare-mongering based on some highly unlikely scenarios which would be potentially dangerous whatever electrical equipment was involved.
The NVA BMU was discussed here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?35171-BMU-Safety-issues
The final point at the very end is that it doesn't really work, and MrRadish came to the same view with his balanced mains transformer.
Really....I fail to see how one might come to such a conclusion based upon that particular thread, consisting in the main of subjective opinions either way, particularly when one considers the highly individual nature of mains condition.
Really....I fail to see how one might come to such a conclusion based upon that particular thread, consisting in the main of subjective opinions either way, particularly when one considers the highly individual nature of mains condition.
And in response to Joe, I was not interested in the scare-mongering, only whether it worked.
The only point I sought to make was that it was a balanced transformer approach and MrRadish has tried a balanced transformer and it didn't work for him compared to using a mains regenerator.
Think such things are for after youve got the system up and running really. Not everyone needs any help with mains.in fact most probably dont. I did but ive got lots of heavy industry sprung up around plus a new electric train line just outside now.
walpurgis
07-12-2016, 11:47
I've never worried about my mains supply and don't even use 'fancy' mains cables. I have no need for such.
Absolutely. I just filled in your list for a bit of fun! It's largely a question of perception, based on your experience of the companies concerned :)
However, true "specialist", for me, is the likes of the 'one-man band' traders have here, producing all manner of superb kit, which few folk who don't read forums would ever have heard of. And *that* is where the real SPPV lies... ;)
Marco.
We will have to respectfully disagree on that. I accept that if you want a stunning single ended class A valve amplifier you are always best to go and get one built by a specialist. Why? Because they are actually very simple devices with very expensive components. If you buy such a device from a retailer, the profit taken by manufacturer, distributor and retailer would likely result in the item being several times more expensive. It may be just as good, it will just cost a lot more.
When it comes to solid state electronics, most western brands we know are designed in Europe/USA and made in China. A Chinese operative can solder just as well as a Brit or a Yank, it's just that they cost about $10 per day rather than $20 per hour.
As for mass-produced PCB units, such as disc spinners, streamers and DACs, "specialists" don't even go there. The main problem now is that they are mostly software-driven, it costs a fortune to develop good software and it has to be maintained and upgraded from time to time, whether to improve it or integrate new services.
loveoscar
07-12-2016, 12:34
:hijack:
I'll assume that remark was aimed at me. It appears most on here agree speakers are the most important so why not let the op go out and listen, come back and then we'll have more of and idea what he likes. Source and amps can then be discussed, but BMU's have even been mentioned and surely these sort of things are added at a latter stage when you have a system up and running. As noted the op has not been back so has everyone frightened him off?
MrRadish
07-12-2016, 12:36
Think such things are for after youve got the system up and running really. Not everyone needs any help with mains.in fact most probably dont. I did but ive got lots of heavy industry sprung up around plus a new electric train line just outside now.
I'd agree with this, except trying equipment at different times of the day when the mains is very variable can seriously mess with any A/B comparisons. If you're using one bit of kit for a week and then the next for a second week its fine, but if you're swapping things over during the evening (say every couple of hours) the mains can really skew opinions on which is best. But then if you don't have a problem with your mains supply you don't need anything to fix it, so its a chicken and egg situation.
Firebottle
07-12-2016, 12:38
We will have to respectfully disagree on that. I accept that if you want a stunning single ended class A valve amplifier .......
I will have to respectfully disagree with that :)
The likes of SW1X for dacs, Nick Goram and Paul Hynes for a plethora of power supplies, plus myself for phono stages and preamp and hybrid power amplifiers rather shoots you in the foot :cool:
walpurgis
07-12-2016, 12:41
As noted the op has not been back so has everyone frightened him off?
I'm sure Dan is perfectly happy and considering his options. He doesn't have to keep coming back to the thread.
I dont have one but have heard only praise for this --- if Op does decide to spend full budget this is worth serious consideration http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NVA-BMU-balanced-mains-unit-/272123586316?hash=item3f5bd43ffc:g:vfkAAASwRLZT8Mc 5
Are you on commission, or have you been sent here on a 'mission'? If not, why link to a product you don't own/use and seemingly know nothing about? Only recommend stuff YOU either use yourself or have auditioned at length and know something about, please.
Steven, I'll get to your post later :)
Marco.
hughandella
07-12-2016, 13:10
Are you on commission, or have you been sent here on a 'mission'? If not, why link to a product you don't own/use and seemingly know nothing about? Only recommend stuff YOU either use yourself or have auditioned at length and know something about, please.
Steven, I'll get to your post later :)
Marco.
No I am not and i resent the insinuation ---- I am well aware of the ridiculous 'war of words' you and a n other have regarding NVA - it is frankly pathetic that you used the term 'special needs' for a decent product whatever the guy's character ...... I would have thought you would have attempted to offer some sort of objective view to the Op .... for what it is worth I have had a few run ins with the person concerned ( I dont even dare use his initials on here for fear of blocking ) but I do recognise that he makes decent equipment and thought the buyer should be aware of his options ...... I merely added that comment to a very long list from the other guy who is posting an awful lot as mains were under discussion ...... this is the only one you have jumped on ..... several other people on here know me including mods and I think know I am in nobody's pocket -- I simply think it is an idea to offer advice ....... I purposely mentioned I hadn't used that product so Op could take my input on that with a pinch of salt - and perhaps fairly so .... your massive over reaction to this says more about you than me Marco ..... IMHO it's about time both you and the other guy grew up but it plainly isnt going to happen but please don't involve me in your tit for tat bullshite
And in response to Joe, I was not interested in the scare-mongering, only whether it worked.
The only point I sought to make was that it was a balanced transformer approach and MrRadish has tried a balanced transformer and it didn't work for him compared to using a mains regenerator.
You must have missed post #160 then.
hughandella
07-12-2016, 13:14
I also like and recommend Croft, Innuos, SW1X and Auditorium --- Infact I make my money 'product placing' -- didn't you know ? Admittedly it's a tough job as most of the stuff i recommend is second hand so the business model needs a tweak --- good grief !
No I am not and i resent the insinuation ---- I am well aware of the ridiculous 'war of words' you and a n other have regarding NVA - it is frankly pathetic that you used the term 'special needs' for a decent product whatever the guy's character ...... I would have thought you would have attempted to offer some sort of objective view to the Op .... for what it is worth I have had a few run ins with the person concerned ( I dont even dare use his initials on here for fear of blocking ) but I do recognise that he makes decent equipment and thought the buyer should be aware of his options ...... I merely added that comment to a very long list from the other guy who is posting an awful lot as mains were under discussion ...... this is the only one you have jumped on ..... several other people on here know me including mods and I think know I am in nobody's pocket -- I simply think it is an idea to offer advice ....... I purposely mentioned I hadn't used that product so Op could take my input on that with a pinch of salt - and perhaps fairly so .... your massive over reaction to this says more about you than me Marco ..... IMHO it's about time both you and the other guy grew up but it plainly isnt going to happen but please don't involve me in your tit for tat bullshite
No offence but its you whos over reacting.
And while im at it... how many thousands of posts are there about this site and its members you know where... how many here?
Youve got a bloody cheek
Loveoscar: Sorry, my comment was aimed at SLS who had made 25 posts at that stage on one thread. His opening gambit was to recommend products without a high brand premium. Next he criticised 80w monoblocks as being underpowered before recommending a Naim all in one product with a high brand premium and rated at 40wpc. If it takes you 25 and more attempts to advise a buyer then I think you've missed the point of the thread and have perhaps hijacked it.
hughandella
07-12-2016, 13:25
No offence but its you whos over reacting.
And while im at it... how many thousands of posts are there about this site and its members you know where... how many here?
Youve got a bloody cheek
Jesus Grant -- we've spoken in the past --- I do not get involved in any of that shite on the other site --- feel free to check ------ but quite why you'd choose to make these comments I do not understand --- i haven't got a bloody cheek --- I'm just bored with it all ...... 'special needs' really ?? ...... and I think it's pretty lain I am hardly on the other guy's side either
Guys,
Someone new looking to buy a Stereo and is looking for advice (like the OP) would take one look at this Thread and bugger off to WH Smiths to buy What Hifi.
Or pop into Currys where an expert could help him... :rolleyes:
Some good advice given here, like hearing other peoples systems or go to a Show, but this lot ain't helping the guy.
Suspect the guys walked away, just sayin'
No I am not and i resent the insinuation ---- I am well aware of the ridiculous 'war of words' you and a n other have regarding NVA - it is frankly pathetic that you used the term 'special needs' for a decent product whatever the guy's character ...... I would have thought you would have attempted to offer some sort of objective view to the Op .... for what it is worth I have had a few run ins with the person concerned ( I dont even dare use his initials on here for fear of blocking ) but I do recognise that he makes decent equipment and thought the buyer should be aware of his options ...... I merely added that comment to a very long list from the other guy who is posting an awful lot as mains were under discussion ...... this is the only one you have jumped on ..... several other people on here know me including mods and I think know I am in nobody's pocket -- I simply think it is an idea to offer advice ....... I purposely mentioned I hadn't used that product so Op could take my input on that with a pinch of salt - and perhaps fairly so .... your massive over reaction to this says more about you than me Marco ..... IMHO it's about time both you and the other guy grew up but it plainly isnt going to happen but please don't involve me in your tit for tat bullshite
Lol... *My* massive overreaction? For the dictionary definition of that, see the above! Calm down, dear... :lol:
I was simply making a point, which is that there is no problem recommending kit that you like, NVA included, *providing* it is for the right reasons.
In my opinion, the example I quoted of yours stank strongly of a shill, but I'll accept your word that I was off-beam in that instance. However, from now on please only recommend equipment that you own or have direct personal experience of using, and that applies to equipment from ANY manufacturer, otherwise it calls into question your motives for recommending it.
As for the rest, stay out of forum politics and 'battles' elsewhere in future. I'm not remotely interested in your opinion on something that has nothing whatsoever to do with you, and if you do it again, you'll be out for a week, which incidentally also goes for any further input from you here, other than what is relevant to the thread topic.
You're here to discuss hi-fi, music, or permitted subjects in the off-topic section, nothing else. Now, I insist that the thread gets back on-topic, in terms of offering relevant advice to the OP, so any further 'chat' outside of that will be deleted without further warning.
Marco.
I also like and recommend Croft, Innuos, SW1X and Auditorium --- Infact I make my money 'product placing' -- didn't you know ? Admittedly it's a tough job as most of the stuff i recommend is second hand so the business model needs a tweak --- good grief !
A true insider's post. I've had a moderate interest in hifi for 5 years and, besides Croft, none of the other words mean anything to me, so heaven help the OP. I thought Innous make CAD/CAM tablets (got one at home), SW1X is a postcode and an Auditorium is somewhere to go and listen to things.
How about a few links - we may all learn something!
Firebottle
07-12-2016, 14:02
Don't you read the forum Steven?
SW1X may be a postcode but the supplier in question has joined AoS fairly recently and offers what seems to be an exceptional DAC, judging by what others have said and his openness with descriptions of the technical approach to the design :rolleyes:
Loveoscar: Sorry, my comment was aimed at SLS who had made 25 posts at that stage on one thread. His opening gambit was to recommend products without a high brand premium. Next he criticised 80w monoblocks as being underpowered before recommending a Naim all in one product with a high brand premium and rated at 40wpc. If it takes you 25 and more attempts to advise a buyer then I think you've missed the point of the thread and have perhaps hijacked it.
Rather than spend my life on forums, when I get work stressed I find one thread a bit of light relief.
Actually, I recommended a Rega Elex-R (£900), Aries Mini (£450), SBooster (£230), MDAC+ (£800) and Harbeth because they do not have much brand premium and, should the OP want to change, they all have excellent resale values.
I then recommend a Pioneer streamer/integrated option for less then £700 all-in and get slagged of for recommending toys, even though they are known to be superb products.
I recommended the Naim Atom because, as I pointed out, it has pre-outs so you can bypass the 40w amplifier, which is what I did, using a Naim UQ2 into a Quad 909. There may be a preference on this forum for men in sheds ("specialists"), but they can't do software or make anything with this level of wife-approval finish. Naim, like Mercedes etc, are good in that wherever you buy in the range, for £1,500 or £10,000, you get the same software and support platform.
Quad make a similar device, not yet launched, but it is significantly more expensive (£2,500) and does not look as good.
For me buying audio without volume remote control would be like buying a car without suspension. Not going to happen. Croft? NVA? Did anyone care to mention this to the OP?
Seems like you can never win.
p.s. I Know WhatHiFi makes people here turn up their audio noses in superior disgust, but the Regal Elex-R had been voted their best amp under £1,000 for three years running and it doesn't surprise me at all.
Someone is selling an almost new one here for £740. A bargain?
http://www.hifi-forsale.co.uk/moreinfo.php?prod_title=Rega_Elex_R&p=integrated_amplifier&prod_id=34670&offset=
Sorry, but What Hi Fi is a total waste of space and always has been. I used to use it like I used the NME - if they like it, avoid, if they hate it then it's worth a listen.
The 50 word reviews read like they were written by a teenager, the star rating system is cobblers, they have no idea whatsoever about any technical aspects, they don't seem to understand how digital audio works at all (although that isn't confined to WHF) and the advertising blatantly influences what they review.
And I find the suggestion that Harbeth don't charge a brand premium ridiculous. 2 drivers in lightweight cab for £2.5K? They are practically Veben goods.
I have ranted. :)
Sorry, but What Hi Fi is a total waste of space and always has been. I used to use it like I used the NME - if they like it, avoid, if they hate it then it's worth a listen.
The 50 word reviews read like they were written by a teenager, the star rating system is cobblers, they have no idea whatsoever about any technical aspects, they don't seem to understand how digital audio works at all (although that isn't confined to WHF) and the advertising blatantly influences what they review.
And I find the suggestion that Harbeth don't charge a brand premium ridiculous. 2 drivers in lightweight cab for £2.5K? They are practically Veben goods.
I have ranted. :)
I don't think I've bought an audio magazine since 1980. I have subscribed to Gramohone since about then, that's it. A music magazine with a small audio section at the back, quite a practical one, only 2 editors in the last 50 years or so.
Online searches ending up at WHF or other such things give a flavour for what is available. My private recommendation to the OP was to give Dave a call for some sensible advice, although some of the things I suggested would be his choice as well, as he has suggested elsewhere. I enjoy teasing Dave, but he really is a true sage and a diamond geezer at that. He posted elsewhere he's got a Quad QSP going cheap - an excellent long-term bet.
The NVA BMU was discussed here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?35171-BMU-Safety-issues
The final point at the very end is that it doesn't really work, and MrRadish came to the same view with his balanced mains transformer.
The final point at THIS end is that it did work, very well indeed, to the point that I missed it hugely when it was removed from the system (little to no NVA in it at this particular time) and I ended up buying my loan sample. I still use it to this day and it's staying put. Even macca, who had this unit before, found a difference, but at that time he decided to pass it on.
As for safety issues, the BMU is perspex cased with NO exposed metal to risk getting a shock from. If either + or - leg on the output side is connected to the earth (which is the only part connected from input to output), it should trip the mains supply at the 'fuse-board' as it did here in a brief experiment I carried out.
loveoscar
07-12-2016, 16:00
Loveoscar: Sorry, my comment was aimed at SLS who had made 25 posts at that stage on one thread. His opening gambit was to recommend products without a high brand premium. Next he criticised 80w monoblocks as being underpowered before recommending a Naim all in one product with a high brand premium and rated at 40wpc. If it takes you 25 and more attempts to advise a buyer then I think you've missed the point of the thread and have perhaps hijacked it.
My apologies for jumping the gun Scooby :doh:, but your post is exactly what I meant, in my post which has been removed. :scratch: Lets give the op a chance to listen to some speakers so we know what he likes, then move on to source and amps ect.
Speakers in a (mostly) digital system are by far the weakest part and all of them have added character which suits different rooms and tastes. It's so difficult for the likes of me to respond to a 'Recommend me a stereo set for four grand!' as there are so many variables.
These days, I'd suggest to start low with popular stuff that's easy to move on later (one area where Rega *could* be a good start as well as the cheaper NVA gear I have a hand in making) as experience and speaker-presentation tastes develop... Just a thought.
I don't think I've bought an audio magazine since 1980. I have subscribed to Gramohone since about then, that's it. A music magazine with a small audio section at the back, quite a practical one, only 2 editors in the last 50 years or so.
Online searches ending up at WHF or other such things give a flavour for what is available. My private recommendation to the OP was to give Dave a call for some sensible advice, although some of the things I suggested would be his choice as well, as he has suggested elsewhere. I enjoy teasing Dave, but he really is a true sage and a diamond geezer at that. He posted elsewhere he's got a Quad QSP going cheap - an excellent long-term bet.
As I said before my only concern is that that anyone who posts here asking 'what hfi system should I buy' is that they are given the full panoply of options, albeit not in terms of specific items of kit, since tastes differ. As the theme tune to Diff'rent Stokes sagely advised: 'What might be right for you might not be right for some.'
Mags always recommend 'find a good dealer who will patiently show you all the options' except even the best dealer can only show you the options he sells, which is a fraction of a percent of the good stuff out there. So going to a dealer is not the best way, it is just one possible way. But I agree with you about Hi-fi Dave, if the o/p wants to do it that way he is the man to see.
Pieoftheday
07-12-2016, 20:06
If anyone's starting from scratch, a hi-fi dealer is surely a good idea to give you at least an idea !!?? Unless you've lots of mate's with different gear you can hear?
Don't you read the forum Steven?
SW1X may be a postcode but the supplier in question has joined AoS fairly recently and offers what seems to be an exceptional DAC, judging by what others have said and his openness with descriptions of the technical approach to the design :rolleyes:
Sorry, no, but googled. Sounds interesting, but just cashed in an expensive DAC for a much cheaper one. Would it play my 24/192 and DSD files?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
There may be a preference on this forum for men in sheds ("specialists"), but they can't do software or make anything with this level of wife-approval finish. Naim, like Mercedes etc, are good in that wherever you buy in the range, for £1,500 or £10,000, you get the same software and support platform.
Quad make a similar device, not yet launched, but it is significantly more expensive (£2,500) and does not look as good.
For me buying audio without volume remote control would be like buying a car without suspension. Not going to happen. Croft? NVA? Did anyone care to mention this to the OP?
Seems like you can never win.
p.s. I Know WhatHiFi makes people here turn up their audio noses in superior disgust, but the Regal Elex-R had been voted their best amp under £1,000 for three years running and it doesn't surprise me at all.
Someone is selling an almost new one here for £740. A bargain?
http://www.hifi-forsale.co.uk/moreinfo.php?prod_title=Rega_Elex_R&p=integrated_amplifier&prod_id=34670&offset= (http://www.hifi-forsale.co.uk/moreinfo.php?prod_title=Rega_Elex_R&p=integrated_amplifier&prod_id=34670&offset=)
My power amp was designed and built by one of these men in a shed you speak of, and the guy can do software too...very very much so.
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq61/gazjamster/Kit%20pics/Nick%20Amp/20160930_190819_zpstiua9j2q.jpg
You've got the wrong idea about these guys Steven, not all of them live in a shed and have solder burns on their brown cardigans. :)
Take your point and see what your saying, but I wouldn't be so quick to generalise.
A lot of very clever talented people here.
You've got the wrong idea about these guys Steven, not all of them live in a shed and have solder burns on their brown cardigans. :)
Indeed... Only brown stains on their Y-Fronts and friction burns on their knees! :D
Yeah, you need to badly reassess your views on that front, Steven... He's another hand-built beauty from one of our 'shed boys', this time courtesy of Anthony Matthews, from Tube Distinctions:
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Tannoyista%20System/Tannoyista%20system%20update%202015/DSC00523.jpg
Yes, you *can* have looks, superb build quality and stunning sonic performance from a 'specialist' manufacturer, and pay considerably less for the privilege than you would from a manistream and/or 'high-end' one.
How much would the likes of AudioNote/Kondo charge for either of the above, I wonder? ;)
Marco.
P.S Oh look, and there's a Croft beside it too, with custom control knobs in a 'fancy' stainless steel/acrylic case.....
For me buying audio without volume remote control would be like buying a car without suspension. Not going to happen. Croft? NVA? Did anyone care to mention this to the OP?
No - is he a lazy bastard, then? ;)
I can say for a fact that, in terms of Croft, if you want a remote control, then Glenn will happily supply one with his amps (at extra cost). In fact, because he builds the stuff himself, you can tailor them in many ways to your own spec.
Want a stereo volume pot, instead of dual-mono, or a stepped attenuator? No Problem? Want to upgrade from the stock valves? No problem? Want to add an off-board PSU, or upgrade some stock capacitors? No problem. You get the drift... And he's always at the end of a phone or an email to help.
That's the benefit, you see, of dealing with a 'shed boy'... :eyebrows:
Would you get that type of service from Naim or Quad? No chance. You take what you're given, and like it!
Marco.
loveoscar
08-12-2016, 10:46
Those two amps photos shown by Marco do look fantastic, nobody would guess they were 'shed' made. As for remote control, my amp does not have one, I simply reset the volume when I change sides on vinyl or change a cd. Now a remote for a tv is another thing.
rmcin626
08-12-2016, 11:06
Indeed... Only brown stains on their Y-Fronts and friction burns on their knees! :D
Yeah, you need to badly reassess your views on that front, Steven... He's another hand-built beauty from one of our 'shed boys', this time courtesy of Anthony Matthews, from Tube Distinctions:
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Tannoyista%20System/Tannoyista%20system%20update%202015/DSC00523.jpg
Yes, you *can* have looks, superb build quality and stunning sonic performance from a 'specialist' manufacturer, and pay considerably less for the privilege than you would from a manistream and/or 'high-end' one.
How much would the likes of AudioNote/Kondo charge for either of the above, I wonder? ;)
Marco.
P.S Oh, and there's a Croft beside it too, with custom control knobs in a 'fancy' stainless steel/acrylic case.....
Nice amps there Marco
Not mine, mate. They're Jo (Black Adder's). However, my amps are very similar (also Croft preamp and TD Copper amp) :)
How about this built-from-scratch turntable and matching stand, from another of our 'shed-boys':
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/I15hyE.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poI15hyEj)
Marco.
Hold on guys with the vitriol !!!
I do have a bit of personal, I've got a nice pair of shiny shed-made amps in my loft that I can't give away.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?45429-For-sale-Art-Audio-Concerto-monoblocks
Before that I had a silver wired 300B-xls Class A , blah blah blah amp and I lost about one third of my investment, having bought it second hand at a fair price. It also took 6 months to sell.
Those were my two valve amps, they just weren't powerful enough for the speakers I have settled upon.
I actually had the same man in shed make me a phono stage, which I still have. Resale value probably 50%. I also have a Hattor passive pre-amp, which also counts as a man in shed item.
My turntable is a one-off and had no resale value, but I'm not selling it.
Since I got into audio, the other main items I've bought and sold were:
1: A new pair of PMC speakers - 40% loss. Took 3 months to sell
2: A Linn Majik DS - lost about £100 for quick sale
3: A Linn Akurate DS - paid £2,750 and sold for the same in about 2 weeks.
4: A Linn 2200 - got my money back from dealer
5: Clearaudio turntable. Paid £1,500 and got the same back in p/x for first valve amp
6: Quad 909 monos - Cost £1,000, made £100 profit. Sold in a week
7: Quad 909 stereo - sold at £500 cost, had people biting my hand off for it
8: Naim UQ2 - pair £800, sold for £825 about 2 years later, sold in days.
9: A PS Audio DAC. Bought new, sold less 40%, but replaced with much cheaper item and cash, so quite happy. Sold in reply to a 'Wanted' add.
So at the end of the day on "mainstream" kit (mostly current items from main dealers used or ex-demo) I've made one regrettable big loss on a new pair of speakers, which I bought mainly because the wife liked the look of them and I did enjoy them for a couple of years.
However, the man in shed stuff has given me one big loss (more than on the speakers) and one item that I can't sell. The obvious reason is that the resale market is very limited to enthusiasts so the chances are that it will take ages to sell and a loss will arise. It is also a buyer's market, so the sale will be a complete pain compared the mainstream stuff that can be sold quickly and unseen.
So that's my experience for the benefit of the OP, as I was in his shoes 5 or 6 years ago. Men in shed stuff is fine, but you have to be in it for the long term and really know what you are doing.
I also don't qualify as an enthusiast as all my hifi is ugly black boxes hidden in a unit, so my criteria include running cold or lukewarm at best and the smaller the better. (see attached)
I did consider a Croft pre, but was told I could not have remote. Anyway, any system is fully balanced and I think they are line input only.
Hold on guys with the vitriol !!!
No "vitriol"; just some reality, which will hopefully erode your anti-'man in a shed' mantra... ;)
Out of interest, how far away is your listening position from the kit you've posted a picture of above?
Marco.
No "vitriol"; just some reality, which will hopefully erode your anti-man in a shed mantra... ;)
Out of interest, how far away is your listening position from the kit you've posted a picture of?
Marco.
About 12 feet. TV above the Hifi/AV box
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
hifi_dave
08-12-2016, 13:29
As someone who has supported and sold 'man in a shed' products for over 40 years, I can say that the only products I have lost money on have been mainstream. From the top of my head I can say that I got less than trade for a 1 year old Naim CD555, Naim NAP300, , various Marantz amps and CD players, a 6 month old Lexicon processor, KEF and PMC speakers. There are probably more than that but because I am very careful with my money, I don't often make mistakes.
I sell 'man in the shed' products because some do provide the best sound quality and at the best prices. Now, not all shed made products are good and that is where I use my knowledge gained over all these years to weed out the dross before wasting money. The Croft, Sonneteer and Nottingham Analogue products I sell are right up there with the very best but at a fraction of the cost.
Thing is though, where do you draw the line at Mainstream or 'man in a shed' ? I sell huge amounts of Rega and Harbeth but are they mainstream ? I don't think so as they are still relatively small scale in comparison to Sony, Marantz, Philips, KEF, Bose etc, etc. They are still small enough to be specialist and care about the performance rather than place the emphasis on profit margin.
Steven,
Nice kit...
How do you find the Auralic Aries matched up to the Linn streamers, particularly the Akurate?
I know you sold it on but.... :)
Hold on guys with the vitriol !!!
Since I got into audio, the other main items I've bought and sold were:
1: A new pair of PMC speakers - 40% loss. Took 3 months to sell
2: A Linn Majik DS - lost about £100 for quick sale
3: A Linn Akurate DS - paid £2,750 and sold for the same in about 2 weeks.
4: A Linn 2200 - got my money back from dealer
5: Clearaudio turntable. Paid £1,500 and got the same back in p/x for first valve amp
6: Quad 909 monos - Cost £1,000, made £100 profit. Sold in a week
7: Quad 909 stereo - sold at £500 cost, had people biting my hand off for it
8: Naim UQ2 - pair £800, sold for £825 about 2 years later, sold in days.
9: A PS Audio DAC. Bought new, sold less 40%, but replaced with much cheaper item and cash, so quite happy. Sold in reply to a 'Wanted' add.
So at the end of the day on "mainstream" kit (mostly current items from main dealers used or ex-demo) I've made one regrettable big loss on a new pair of speakers, which I bought mainly because the wife liked the look of them and I did enjoy them for a couple of years.
Steven,
Nice kit...
How do you find the Auralic Aries matched up to the Linn streamers, particularly the Akurate?
I know you sold it on but.... :)
The Aries is a dream because the software is faultless and it's totally hassle-free, which is rare in a computer environment.
The fact that it networks a standard USB drive is very helpful, so you can create an extra system just with a Mini, amp and speakers, or just a pair of actives.
I sold the Linn a long time back, but found the Linn streaming software quite sufficient. The main thing about Aries software for me is Qobuz integration. I want to be able to search my library and streaming service at the same time.
Don't know what Linn have onboard, Naim do Spotify and Tidal, Arcam do Qobuz, etc. The reason why I sold my Naim UQ2 is because I decided Qobuz would be my main source but NAIM don't support it.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Thing is though, where do you draw the line at Mainstream or 'man in a shed' ? I sell huge amounts of Rega and Harbeth but are they mainstream ? I don't think so as they are still relatively small scale in comparison to Sony, Marantz, Philips, KEF, Bose etc, etc. They are still small enough to be specialist and care about the performance rather than place the emphasis on profit margin.
I thought Rega and Harbeth were mainstream, which is why I suggested them in the first place. When I asked the question M or S, Marco's view was that Rega is mainstream but Harbeth is Specialist.
I remain of the view that Mainstream and Specialist means completely different things to different people, but from the OP's viewpoint (who long since gave up I presume) the relevance of mainstream would in my view be a ready market to resell should he wish to change or trade up.
Brass tacks: What brands would people recommend a newbie like the OP (or me 5 years ago) that produce good sound, could be considered good value and have fast and high resale value?
Let's start with:
Rega
Soneteer
Croft (with remote)
Nottingham Analogue
Quad
Auralic
ianlenco
08-12-2016, 15:15
Hi Steven,
Thanks for bring the Aries mini to my attention - looks a nice bit of kit. The fact that it has an in-built DAC is a positive but it seems you can only use an Apple product to control it - is this still the case? Also with my Vortexbox I have a disc slot and decent ripping software built in so no need for another device to rip CD's with - how do you get round this?
Cheers, Ian
About 12 feet. TV above the Hifi/AV box
And that's too far to haul your ass up off the sofa? ;)
Marco.
Hi Steven,
Thanks for bring the Aries mini to my attention - looks a nice bit of kit. The fact that it has an in-built DAC is a positive but it seems you can only use an Apple product to control it - is this still the case? Also with my Vortexbox I have a disc slot and decent ripping software built in so no need for another device to rip CD's with - how do you get round this?
Cheers, Ian
It only has an iOS app. You can use other apps like Kinsky and Lumin, but their Lightning app is the big plus as it is integrated with several streaming services. They also tell me they are developing an upgrade to give Roon-type services.
Android has issues and so they stuck to iOS. Quad had the same problem and their new Artera streamer will be iOS only. It works best with iPad, but OK with iPhone. I suppose some might have to get a second hand unlocked one.
I used to use a ripping server and I still use it for ripping. You can rip on any computer, with a £15 external drive if not built in.
And that's too far to haul your ass up off the sofa? ;)
Marco.
Yes. Like now. Working at home, ambient listening as I read and the phone goes. Remote has a mute. Also use system for AV with the family.
As the stuff is in a unit, I would have to get up, open the cabinet door, bend down to floor level where the pre-amp is, close door, sit down again. That's why they invented remotes. It's practical, not lazy.
MrRadish
08-12-2016, 15:59
I would classify anything sold through shops and reviewed in the print media as mainstream. Anything sold direct and advertised online only would be specialist as you won't have heard of them unless you visited the right websites. There'll be some blurry edges to those distinctions of course. I still can't believe Marco hasn't heard of Bluesound, given they're a sister company of NAD, sold through the same dealers and they cross fertilise each other in terms of technology. Essentially Bluesound handle the streaming stuff with their own range, plus they provide modules that slot into the NAD Masters series. You need to read WTF more often. ;) It does suggest that regular forumites might have a very different idea of mainstream to those that read magazines though. Schiit Audio are probably considered a specialist company, but I know more about their range than Sony, Denon, Onkyo or any of the other big corporates simply because I read the relevant forums a lot and I've been using headphones for the last decade.
I thought Rega and Harbeth were mainstream, which is why I suggested them in the first place. When I asked the question M or S, Marco's view was that Rega is mainstream but Harbeth is Specialist.
I remain of the view that Mainstream and Specialist means completely different things to different people, but from the OP's viewpoint (who long since gave up I presume) the relevance of mainstream would in my view be a ready market to resell should he wish to change or trade up.
Brass tacks: What brands would people recommend a newbie like the OP (or me 5 years ago) that produce good sound, could be considered good value and have fast and high resale value?
Let's start with:
Rega
Soneteer
Croft (with remote)
Nottingham Analogue
Quad
Auralic
I don't know about Auralic but ALL the others are likely to sound good (although I personally wouldn't choose Quad) offer good value AND have the same resale value when you buy them second hand. Lots of us have made this point already.
And sound quality of the Aries compared to the Akurate Steven?
Might be a while ago mind...
Thanks.
The Aries is a dream because the software is faultless and it's totally hassle-free, which is rare in a computer environment.
The fact that it networks a standard USB drive is very helpful, so you can create an extra system just with a Mini, amp and speakers, or just a pair of actives.
I sold the Linn a long time back, but found the Linn streaming software quite sufficient. The main thing about Aries software for me is Qobuz integration. I want to be able to search my library and streaming service at the same time.
Don't know what Linn have onboard, Naim do Spotify and Tidal, Arcam do Qobuz, etc. The reason why I sold my Naim UQ2 is because I decided Qobuz would be my main source but NAIM don't support it.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I thought Rega and Harbeth were mainstream, which is why I suggested them in the first place. When I asked the question M or S, Marco's view was that Rega is mainstream but Harbeth is Specialist.
I remain of the view that Mainstream and Specialist means completely different things to different people...
And if you remember, I agreed with you. I also agree with Dave's summary of the matter, so on reflection I would place Rega in the same category as Harbeth :)
...but from the OP's viewpoint (who long since gave up I presume) the relevance of mainstream would in my view be a ready market to resell should he wish to change or trade up.
Why do you keep saying that? For all you know (and I suspect this is the most likely scenario), he's enjoying reading the discussion from the sidelines and seeing what more info pops up, or he's learned what he needed to know and is digesting it all.
Also, why are you so obsessed with "fast and high resale value", and do you automatically presume that the OP is like you? Not everyone is a perennial box-swapper. He may be the type who wants to 'buy once and buy well', and enjoy his choices for years, spending his spare cash instead on music, rather than more boxes.
Such people do exist you know! Unless I missed where he stated that recommendations given for kit had to have a fast and high resale value. If so, I stand corrected...
Marco.
And that's too far to haul your ass up off the sofa? ;)
Marco.
I should add that as 95% of the time I queue music from my phone or iPad (no CDs and rarely play vinyl), I can sit on my big fat rear end for hours on end without moving other than in the direction of the coffee machine.
Now if someone could make a pre-amp with a built in cappuccino dispenser, that would be progress.
Yes. Like now. Working at home, ambient listening as I read and the phone goes. Remote has a mute. Also use system for AV with the family.
As the stuff is in a unit, I would have to get up, open the cabinet door, bend down to floor level where the pre-amp is, close door, sit down again. That's why they invented remotes. It's practical, not lazy.
Lol... I'm yanking your chain. I wonder, though, what we all did before remote controls were invented? ;)
Marco.
MrRadish
08-12-2016, 16:17
Lol... I'm yanking your chain. I wonder, though, what we all did before remote controls were invented? ;)
We'd shut the door on our way out of the room as the only phone in the house was in the hall.
And if you remember, I agreed with you. I also agree with Dave's summary of the matter, so on reflection I would place Rega in the same category as Harbeth :)
Why do you keep saying that? For all you know (and I suspect this is most likely the case), he's enjoying reading the discussion from the sidelines and seeing what more info pops up, or he's learned what he needed to know and is digesting it all.
Also, why are you so obsessed with "fast and high resale value", and do you automatically presume that the OP is like you? Not everyone is a perennial box-swapper. He may be the type who wants to 'buy once and buy well', and enjoy his choices for years, spending his spare cash instead on music, rather than more boxes.
Such people do exist you know! Unless I missed where he stated that recommendations given for kit had to have a fast and high resale value. If so, I stand corrected...
Marco.
You only have to make one purchasing mistake and it hurts. I reckon the chances of changing something are more than 50/50.
For example, I changed from PMC to Harbeth (good move), Harbeth were actually a lot cheaper but needed more power, so I had to change a perfectly good amp. I lost out more on the amp than on the speakers.
We'd shut the door on our way out of the room as the only phone in the house was in the hall.
Ah yes, the good old days, before we all became hapless slaves to technology [count me out]! ;)
Marco.
We'd shut the door on our way out of the room as the only phone in the house was in the hall.
Phones are a pain. One actually went off last night at the Wigmore Hall, first time I can recall. Andreas Staier was playing. Happened in a quiet bit just before the end of Schubert D960. He actually stopped playing, shook his head and I thought he was going to get up and go. Not a happy bunny (you could tell he was incandescent with rage), nor am I when the phone goes when the stereo is on.
You only have to make one purchasing mistake and it hurts.
Hurts - wot your wallet? Maybe, depends what it is. I'd call it a learning curve :)
Marco.
Phones are a pain. One actually went off last night at the Wigmore Hall, first time I can recall. Andreas Staier was playing. Happened in a quiet bit just before the end of Schubert D960. He actually stopped playing, shook his head and I thought he was going to get up and go. Not a happy bunny (you could tell he was incandescent with rage), nor am I when the phone goes when the stereo is on.
Dreadful... I'd have had security eject them from the room for their sheer bad manners. That's the problem now, though. Folk are obsessed with their bloody mobile phones, and run their lives on them, so can't be without the damn things for two minutes!! :doh:
You see these iZombies in towns all over the place, cocooned within their little bubbles, glued to their phones, and completely oblivious of the world around them, bumping into lamp posts and stuff. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
Marco.
Missed this... was on the phone ;)
Lol... I'm yanking your chain. I wonder, though, what we all did before remote controls were invented? ;)
Marco.
Used maw .. maw, change channel....maw, turn volume up.....is ma tea ready maw?
Gordon Steadman
08-12-2016, 16:48
Interesting about resale value. I have never, ever, considered that in all the time - 50 years or so - that I have been into hi-fi. All that has ever mattered to me is getting the best I could afford at the time, best as in best sounding for the dosh.
Because I have always been careful to listen long and hard before spending, I can't recall ever having sold something in order to fund a new bit. This is the reason for the hi-fi in every room and spares in the cupboard. Ronnie is nagging about travelling light when we move. I nod sagely and leave it all exactly where it is:) - actually, I tell a lie, I did sell six bits to a French bloke the other month. I did decide that seven TTs were a few too many.
The main system has been largely unchanged for 25 years now. I have compared the odd spur of the moment purchase with the main rig but only the phono amp has changed and that was Firebottle's fault.
Box swapping seems a very strange thing to do to me. Takes all sorts.
Arkless Electronics
08-12-2016, 17:01
And if you remember, I agreed with you. I also agree with Dave's summary of the matter, so on reflection I would place Rega in the same category as Harbeth :)
Why do you keep saying that? For all you know (and I suspect this is the most likely scenario), he's enjoying reading the discussion from the sidelines and seeing what more info pops up, or he's learned what he needed to know and is digesting it all.
Also, why are you so obsessed with "fast and high resale value", and do you automatically presume that the OP is like you? Not everyone is a perennial box-swapper. He may be the type who wants to 'buy once and buy well', and enjoy his choices for years, spending his spare cash instead on music, rather than more boxes.
Such people do exist you know! Unless I missed where he stated that recommendations given for kit had to have a fast and high resale value. If so, I stand corrected...
Marco.
Well said! This phenomena is cancer for smaller UK manufacturers. When people make their purchasing decisions mainly on likely resale value and ease of resale, rather than on sound quality and VFM, it completely distorts the market hugely in favour of a few big players in the UK and international industry and kills competition, innovation and the success of new, smaller companies :rolleyes: :steam:
I once knew an inveterate box swapper... Strange beasts... Literally within every 2 weeks or so some part of his system would be sold on to be replaced by something else... which would of course be "bloody marvellous! This is what I've been looking for!" only to be in itself replaced in a short time... His entire system would change, bit by bit, within a 3 month or so cycle:eek:
I fear this is not as rare as I would hope :rolleyes:
Is it just hi fi that attracts this sort of behaviour I wonder :scratch:
Very often by far the best sound quality and VFM is to be had from small companies, run by true enthusiasts rather than "wage slave" teams of engineers designing (some times) a horse by committee, often compromised for reasons of tastes and regulations in far flung corners of the world which they export to... I could go on but no doubt a chorus of "you would say that wouldn't you" is already arising :D
Yes in the case of a one man band such as myself there would be no further backup if I dropped dead... but this is analogue hi fi equipment, not the space shuttle,
and I would expect any competent engineer to be able to service any of my stuff indefinitely ;)
And sound quality of the Aries compared to the Akurate Steven?
Might be a while ago mind...
Thanks.
Totally different system.
I don't think there is anything to worry about in digital other than ease of use and functionality. It is when you get to the analogue conversion and output that the fun (and disagreements) start.
Plenty of punters are happy with the Aries Mini internal DAC, so £450 for a small unit that streams, has a DAC and volume control and provides a domestic NAS drive if you slot in a 2.5" drive is pretty good value, unless you bought one for £350.
No doubt,
For myself though I'd be looking at a Streamer only into my Dac once my trusty old Transporter hangs up its shoes.
UI's mega important for sure (I use Roon in my setup), but the streamer would need to match or exceed the TP, that's why I was asking about the Akurate.
Hopefully a long time before I need to worry about it!
Cool, thanks for reply mate.
Totally different system.
I don't think there is anything to worry about in digital other than ease of use and functionality. It is when you get to the analogue conversion and output that the fun (and disagreements) start.
Plenty of punters are happy with the Aries Mini internal DAC, so £450 for a small unit that streams, has a DAC and volume control and provides a domestic NAS drive if you slot in a 2.5" drive is pretty good value, unless you bought one for £350.
Jez
Brands encourage box swapping with upgrade paths.
My rather less enthusiastic box-swapping has been for a reason each time. Last two were for a DSD DAC that takes much less space and from unbalanced to a balanced amplifier (same brand).
I've only ever bought one item in the back of a car park, an unused Naim unit with original invoice. Everything else was from a main dealer or manufacturer. For example, my Linn DS units became ex-demo when Linn changed to the DSM range. If people don't buy from dealers then there won't be any dealers, and brands like Naim and Linn keep several dealers in business.
anthonyTD
08-12-2016, 17:33
:)
Well said! This phenomena is cancer for smaller UK manufacturers. When people make their purchasing decisions mainly on likely resale value and ease of resale, rather than on sound quality and VFM, it completely distorts the market hugely in favour of a few big players in the UK and international industry and kills competition, innovation and the success of new, smaller companies :rolleyes: :steam:
I once knew an inveterate box swapper... Strange beasts... Literally within every 2 weeks or so some part of his system would be sold on to be replaced by something else... which would of course be "bloody marvellous! This is what I've been looking for!" only to be in itself replaced in a short time... His entire system would change, bit by bit, within a 3 month or so cycle:eek:
I fear this is not as rare as I would hope :rolleyes:
Is it just hi fi that attracts this sort of behaviour I wonder :scratch:
Very often by far the best sound quality and VFM is to be had from small companies, run by true enthusiasts rather than "wage slave" teams of engineers designing (some times) a horse by committee, often compromised for reasons of tastes and regulations in far flung corners of the world which they export to... I could go on but no doubt a chorus of "you would say that wouldn't you" is already arising :D
Yes in the case of a one man band such as myself there would be no further backup if I dropped dead... but this is analogue hi fi equipment, not the space shuttle,
and I would expect any competent engineer to be able to service any of my stuff indefinitely ;)
My daughter changes her paintwork constantly lol. Same thing really. My dad used to take a wobbly on full moons and try to rearrange the furniture. Fortunately not every full moon. After everyone being enroled in this need and whole room transformed, he would sit down and say... was better the other way! Doh. We got to see signs and all bugger off
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Arkless Electronics
08-12-2016, 17:40
Jez
Brands encourage box swapping with upgrade paths.
My rather less enthusiastic box-swapping has been for a reason each time. Last two were for a DSD DAC that takes much less space and from unbalanced to a balanced amplifier (same brand).
I've only ever bought one item in the back of a car park, an unused Naim unit with original invoice. Everything else was from a main dealer or manufacturer. For example, my Linn DS units became ex-demo when Linn changed to the DSM range. If people don't buy from dealers then there won't be any dealers, and brands like Naim and Linn keep several dealers in business.
Different sides of the coin I suppose... One big player like Linn and one chain of dealers such as Superfi (no idea if they're actually still around...) pushing their gear can probably between them be a nemesis for 200 OMB companies such as myself.. in terms of lost potential sales due to the pressure to buy mainstream big brands. They no doubt employ many people between them though... "tis an ill wind that blows nobody any good"
Interesting about resale value. I have never, ever, considered that in all the time - 50 years or so - that I have been into hi-fi. All that has ever mattered to me is getting the best I could afford at the time, best as in best sounding for the dosh.
Because I have always been careful to listen long and hard before spending..
Me too, and/or very carefully researched what it is I'm intending on buying, if I don't have the opportunity of hearing it first, to the point that I'm as sure as I possibly can be that it's right for me. Impulsive ebay purchases are a no-no.
I pay virtually no attention to magazine reviews either, and often take 'educated punts' on stuff, which because of the aforementioned research (and the experience I've accumulated to date) more often than not turn out to be a success.
I appreciate, however, that a newbie isn't going to have that experience, but they should have the gumption and confidence to trust their own ears and judgement sometimes, rather than simply rely on the input from a dealer or 'rave' magazine reviews - or even blindly follow the herd and embrace the latest forum 'fad'... ;)
Be prepared to think for yourself, learn from your mistakes and not be influenced by trends and fashions, and don't be afraid to take a different route from others, by shunning the most well-trodden paths, is my advice :)
The rewards gained from doing so can often be substantial, with the happy status of system satisfaction/audio nirvana reached long before those continually chasing their tail, shackled by the 'grass is always greener' syndrome, often trying to find something that simply doesn't exist, and becoming more and more frustrated and disillusioned with hi-fi, as your personal debt increases daily....
No joking, for some, the latter is a serious illness!
Marco.
Or get an mp3 player and be done with it. Lol. :whippin:
walpurgis
08-12-2016, 17:55
Or get an mp3 player and be done with it. Lol. :whippin:
Damn right!! ;)
Seems to me that anyone seriously concerned about resale value should always buy used since providing you don't pay over the odds you'll take no hit or a very small one on re-sale. Granted if it really is super specialist kit you might struggle to find a buyer, but then you know that before you buy it.
Viewing sold listings on eBay gives a good marker for what something can be re-sold for.
The converse, which is to buy makes like QUAD, Naim or Linn brand new because it is always in demand on the used market limits your options drastically and you are still likely to take a hit in excess of what you would had you bought it used.
Then there are speakers which have their own rules. The Focals I'm using now are a big brand but I got them cheap because the used market for big three way towers is small in the UK, regardless of who makes them. 'Too big for my room.'
I suspect I will not have an easy time if I were to move them on, on the plus side because they were cheap the amount of money involved is insignificant. Had I paid £3K new price the hit would be huge.
wee tee cee
08-12-2016, 18:23
Great thread....
I reckon with all the different standpoints and wealth of experience Dans head will be melted!!!
There is no one right way-we are all passionate music lovers.
An AOS thread on a starter system/budget/midrange/high end-plug and play using the wealth of experience in this parish might be a bit of fun.
Lots of very knowledgeable folk on here just hoping members enjoy music as much as they can.
Jez
Brands encourage box swapping with upgrade paths.
So why always fall for it? Create your OWN upgrade path instead! :)
Sadly, I learned much later than I needed to, especially once I had befriended a few 'good guy' electronics engineers and helpful DIYers, that the most effective upgrades of all, under the hood, were either the ones you implemented yourself or had carried out on your behalf by one of the aforementioned gentlemen. I've upgraded coupling caps in my valve preamp, the sonic improvement of which was akin to going from a Flatcap to a Supercap, in a Naim system, and at a mere fraction of the cost....
Much as I respect Naim as a company and their achievements/success to date, and consider them as an asset to the UK audio industry, and trust me I do, as my long-term experience with the company and its (now) head honcho Paul Stephenson, has been nothing but excellent, they (along with Linn) are the classic example of what you're referring to.
I was once there too, a somewhat blinkered Naim 'fanboy', back in the early 2000s, with a system comprising of a CDSII/XPSII, NAC52/Supercap/NAP135s - around £30k of Salisbury lurveliness, all bought brand new from a dealer! :eek:
Examine the innards of a Hi-Cap, for example, and see what's inside it and how much you're paying for it!!
Then have something identical made by a 'shed-boy' and see how much you save, minus the badge and its 'kudos', with ZERO impact on sonic performance, and I could go there too with their amps, as I discovered when an £850 second-hand Croft Charisma-X outperformed my 52/Supercap - and that was in conjunction with the 135s!! :doh:
That's when a lightbulb switched on and I thought to myself: maybe there's a better/more cost effective way of engaging in this hi-fi malarkey, and one that would deliver me much higher SPPV? :hmm:
Fast forward 9 years or so, to the [largely bespoke] system I've assembled and own now, which quite frankly, is sonically in a different league to my old Naim one...
It's one which I enjoy rather more and doesn't 'dictate' what music I should play, simply because of its distinctive voicing, which for me is a notable departure from neutrality. There is undoubtedly a 'house sound' to Naim equipment that allows it to reproduce some music much better than others, and now since going a different route (driven by what *I* think is good, not someone else) my musical tastes have diversified significantly, and the size of my music collection has grown substantially, accordingly.
Crucially, I'm also happier within myself, as I'm no longer chasing the latest (very expensive) box upgrade, and can divert those funds instead toward something more productive - like adding to my (ever-growing) fine wine collection ;)
So, is there life beyond Linn and Naim? You betcha! :cool:
Marco.
Well it is only when you start to scratch below the surface that you find out how deep the rabbit hole goes. I once looked into watches - just stuck my head in, man there is a lifetime of learning there. You'd never get to the bottom.
I think this thread has done a pretty good job of outlining all the options in terms of general buying strategies, with the pros and cons of each well illustrated. What more could anyone want?
Well it is only when you start to scratch below the surface that you find out how deep the rabbit hole goes. I once looked into watches - just stuck my head in, man there is a lifetime of learning there. You'd never get to the bottom.
I think this thread has done a pretty good job of outlining all the options in terms of general buying strategies, with the pros and cons of each well illustrated. What more could anyone want?
My dad, just about to turn 80, just bought one of these, in this precise shade of Canary Yellow. Got bored of his Porsche. There's no accounting for what people spend their money on. Applies to cars, watches, hifi, tumble dryers ....
walpurgis
08-12-2016, 19:11
My dad, just about to turn 80, just bought one of these, in this precise shade of Canary Yellow. Got bored of his Porsche. There's no accounting for what people spend their money on. Applies to cars, watches, hifi, tumble dryers ....
My brother's about the same age and I'd not put it past him to get something like that. Likes his motors.
My dad, just about to turn 80, just bought one of these, in this precise shade of Canary Yellow. Got bored of his Porsche. There's no accounting for what people spend their money on. Applies to cars, watches, hifi, tumble dryers ....
Your Dad's now a cool dude. Tell him from me. ;)
Your Dad's now a cool dude. Tell him from me. ;)
He is a bit of a character. Got his pilot's license a year or two ago. The thing he likes is that when you open the door at night it shines a stallion on the ground. How about an amplifier that beams its logo onto your ceiling, bit like Batman?
I still can't believe Marco hasn't heard of Bluesound, given they're a sister company of NAD, sold through the same dealers and they cross fertilise each other in terms of technology.
Probably because I'm not a technology geek, Andy ;)
I also haven't owned any NAD equipment since 1987, so I guess am somewhat 'out of touch' with what they're doing now....
Marco.
Your Dad's now a cool dude. Tell him from me. ;)
He's also into music. Has an Aiwa mini system, cost about £100, 20 years ago. No need to change.
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Firebottle
08-12-2016, 19:59
He is a bit of a character. Got his pilot's license a year or two ago.
Right on :D
He is a bit of a character. Got his pilot's license a year or two ago.
:respect:
Cool car, too! Reminds me when I was in my teens, and my granddad of the same age buying a new Alfa Romeo, which he could hardly get into, and which he proceeded to drive around everywhere at 30mph... :eyebrows:
Tell your dad to stay young, by acting and thinking young for as long as he can. As soon as you tell yourself you're old, and behave that way, your body (and mind) quickly follows suit! ;)
It shocks me how some 50 year-old guys today act and look like 70 year-olds :rolleyes: Women too, old before their time... Well, I'll always be a daft big kid until my dying breath!!! :exactly:
Marco.
He's also into music. Has an Aiwa mini system, cost about £100, 20 years ago. No need to change.
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True, we are the 1%ers when it comes to HiFi, most people, even music fanatics, don't give a stuff.
True, we are the 1%ers when it comes to HiFi, most people, even music fanatics, don't give a stuff.
I think it was mainly American comanies in the late 1940s who started the component audio trend, although plenty continued with radiograms. Dave may have sold one or two. One or two box solutions as serious Hi-Fi are back in fashion, the Artera system being a good example. Of course Devialet. Heard Artera recently with 2812s. Lovely. TEAC are bringing out a £5,000 all in one system soon, no valves required. The end of box-swapping.
Unless you disagree with Teac's choices? :D
£500 or £50,000 I'd have a think about them before I laid my money down!
only problem with all in one systems or even 2 in one is that if one bit goes its a bit f**ked. (and they are usually serious money too
walpurgis
08-12-2016, 21:00
only problem with all in one systems or even 2 in one is that if one bit goes its a bit f**ked. (and they are usually serious money too
Yeah. Damn right! I've never seen an 'all in one' that really offers what I want anyway.
I've never seen an 'all in one' that really offers what I want anyway.
I beg to differ, darling, after that outfit you wore on Sunday! :D
Marco.
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