SL1210 - Nearly there.....

[Griffster]

Hi all,

i've not really posted yet, other than in the welcome forum. However, I have been avidly reading your discussions, especially SL1200/1210 related (thanks Marco, Dave and others, you're an inspiration). I'm not new to Hi-Fi, but I am new to Vinyl. When I were a lad, them wonderful CD's had just arrived on the scene promising all sorts, so I bypassed Vinyl altogether and grew up with digital. Shame on me! :doh:
Anyway, in a desperate attempt to redress the balance I've finally gone and bought an SL1210, actually two because a friend was flogging his and they came as a pair. So I've been busily collecting bits and bobs, you know, Sumiko headshell, cleaning brush, cartridge setup protractor etc. I've got a Denon DL103 cartridge and tracking force gauge I'm picking up from a mate tomorrow. Some cardas tonearm cable arrived yesterday, so I'll be busy rewiring the tonearm in the next few days. I got a couple of hockey pucks, one of which I've drilled, ready to try out as a record clamp/weight.

I just need a mat - I can't decide which is the best option here, some new phono cables and a shelf to sit everything on. Oh, and a pipe cleaner to shove up my tonearm tube!
Looking ahead, I can see myself getting one of Dave's Timestep PSU's. I might also try turning a brass counterweight too. the Technics arm will have to stay for the moment, although I realise that a better arm will result in a big improvement.

I'm hoping that the DL-103 will work OK with my Quad 99 Pre, but I have doubts. Of course, it could all be a crashing let down and end in tears :rolleyes: but hopefully not, eh?

It's all so jolly exciting and I just wanted to share it with you. :cool:

[mercury1 (trolling as Dave K)]

Regarding the mat, try: -

http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/ttmat.htm

but make sure that you choose the correct one specifically for the 1210
Generally accepted to be the best mats around I believe.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

That's the mat I have too!

[Marco]

Hi Sean,

I've just noticed this thread. I'm off to bed shortly, so I'll reply to you properly tomorrow :cool:

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Hi Sean

The herbie's mat is the best i have tried .

Don't forget to oil the main bearing ' using SFW0010 . i think you will love the 1200 ,good luck with it:goodluck::

[dmckean]

I used to use the Herbie's as a top mat but stopped because it was hard to keep clean and I didn't notice much difference in sound between it and the stock rubber mat. I'm still a big fan of the isoplatmat I use as a bottom mat.

[Griffster]

Thanks for the feedback folks. dmckean, that's interesting, I've just had a lookee at your TT spec and it's got some similarities with what I'm doing.

Anyone know a good source for the oil?

I've got a bit lucky with the cartridge I picked up last night - it's actually a DL-103R :wow: Excellent!

Marco - I'm here waiting with baited coffee breath. :wave:

About using the Denon. Should I add weight to the headshell and counterbalance with the stock arm? If so, how much is about right?
If so, should I use something like this? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ISOkinetik-CARTRIDGE-STABILISER-FOR-DENON-103-DL-103R_W0QQitemZ170332762192QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTurnt able_Parts_Accessories?hash=item27a89fb050#ht_2215 wt_941

Which I suppose leads on to:-
Brass counterweights. I can turn some brass weights myself, but I believe that the Technics original is actually chrome on brass anyway, so will they make a big difference? Although, I can see the benefit in making the ID of the hole a reasonably snug fit onto the shaft, and by using a grub screw lock it in place and thereby couple the weight to the arm.

Output connections. I'm doing the Cardas arm rewire, but I haven't organised the interconnect cable to the amp yet. Anyone got any ideas? Budget is tight at the moment, but I can always upgrade later. How about a pair of Phono terminals so that I can plug in any IC cable, or do we feel that a flying lead thus eliminating the extra connection would be best?

Thanks again.

[Tolstoi]

Hi Sean,

I've got the Soundhifi (Herbie's) mat here for about 2 weeks now and it sounds good. I could here a difference comparing it with the thick original
Technics mat. And it is antistatic which works most of the time except yesterday where I had some static electricity on one record for the first time
using this mat.

You'll have a lot of fun with the SL-1210 and it'll save you a lot of money and time looking for the right deck.

Cheers

Joerg

[DSJR]

Shouldn't the herbies mat be used on its own and not on top of anything?

[MartinT]

Yes, the Herbies (Sound Hi-Fi Audiophile mat) needs to be resting directly on the platter for excellent results. I tried an SDS Isoplatmat for a while, but it resulted in a 'hollow' sound that sucked the life out of the music - most likely because it doesn't fall inside the rim lip of the platter and results in a volume of air trapped between it and the platter to detrimental effect.

[bong]

just to add in my own experience with mats, i tried the isoplatmat as well, and got the same effect as martinT, that it completely killed off any life in the tracks that i played. what's working for me right now is herbie's right on the platter, and the funk firm achromat on it. works wonders. :)

[dmckean]

Yes, the Herbies (Sound Hi-Fi Audiophile mat) needs to be resting directly on the platter for excellent results. I tried an SDS Isoplatmat for a while, but it resulted in a 'hollow' sound that sucked the life out of the music - most likely because it doesn't fall inside the rim lip of the platter and results in a volume of air trapped between it and the platter to detrimental effect.

That's interesting. I bought mine from mrstereo on audiogon and he sold it with a layer of cork on the bottom. The cork doesn't extend all the way to the edge so it's making good contact with the platter.

If I used the Herbies by itself, there would be no way I could set VTA correctly on the M5G.

[Griffster]

Good point, since I'm sticking with the Stock arm for the moment, I'd like to be able to use the VTA if I need to.

I decided to stick the DL-103R on the Sumiko and fire her up. I used the Avid General purpose protractor, but the cartridge seems to be sticking out of the front of the headshell by 2-3mm if I use the specified null points. Normal? Or odd? Sounds like quite a bit of overhang to me.

I've also added Bluetack to the counterweight, which I was expecting anyway. But I've just realised that I then dialled in the tracking force using the counterweight dial and didn't check it with a VTF gauge. So I'll have another go tonight if I get time.

So far it sounds okay, but I think there's plenty to do before it's right. I'm temporarily using the secondhand felt mat that came with the deck, for example.

[DSJR]

The techie has a 9" arm approx, not 9.5 or 10" so I'd use the 65mm null point and set it to this..

Adding mass to the counterweight will totally throw the calibration out (that's normal) so a stylus pressure gauge is mandatory there.

A heavy headshell and a pipe cleaner (:)) in the arm-tube would be enough to lift the arm's performance to quite acceptable (if not jelco 750) levels I suspect..

[Griffster]

Thanks everyone for the excellent advice. I've been busy with work and home stuff so haven't had a chance to try some of your suggestions yet.

My current standard arm is due a re-wire, but unfortunately the arm lift "nub" on the armtube has broken off (it was like this when I bought it, I suspect it was caused by the platter knocking it while it was in the flightcase). Anyway, I'm not so confident about
manually moving the arm these days, so I think I should replace the arm. They're about £55 on ebay for a Brand new one, but I wondered if anybody had one they'd removed from their deck and had lying about that they'd be interested in selling? I'll post over on the sales thread as well.

[Griffster]

Dave,

I just had a go using just the 65mm null point, and I still end up with the front of the cartridge projecting from the end of the headshell by about 3-4mm.
As a sanity check I dug out the Ortofon Concorde cartridge that came with this deck, and that dropped onto the 65mm null point perfectly too.
I'm also assuming that I align the cartridge so it sits straight in the headshell.

[dmckean]

Dave,

I just had a go using just the 65mm null point, and I still end up with the front of the cartridge projecting from the end of the headshell by about 3-4mm.
As a sanity check I dug out the Ortofon Concorde cartridge that came with this deck, and that dropped onto the 65mm null point perfectly too.
I'm also assuming that I align the cartridge so it sits straight in the headshell.

I think that's normal. My 103 cartridges protrudes from the headshell a few mm too. It's actually nice because it's easier hookup those tiny wires.

[therockst4r]

I just got a sl1200 fitted with a Ortofon Concorde Pro S cart. What do you think would be the best mod for under $200?

[dmckean]

I'd say get a KAB fluid damper and Herbie's mat.

[therockst4r]

I'd say get a KAB fluid damper and Herbie's mat.
Wouldn't the combination cost over $200? Also, I was thinking that top priority would be to replace the cartridge with an audiophile cart rather than the DJ cart currently on here. What do you think?

[DSJR]

The Concord body is similar in al OM series isn't it? An OM20 stylus would make a good start. By the way, the BBC chose the OM pro over the SC35C because the Ortofon has better record wearing characteristics I understand, judging from a comment by a BBC engineer I read somewhere..

[therockst4r]

Indeed the body is similar, but I am not sure if the stylus is interchangeable. I will have to investigate that.
EDIT: You are right about the stylus, I think for now I may just replace the stylus, since I already have the cartridge. In the future I will probably mount a jelco arm on the 1200 and fit that with a highend Audio Technica cart. Do you think that a new mat will make a big enough difference to justify the cost?

[Griffster]

I've not had a chance to make much progress with my MK3D yet, the Cardas re-wire is sort of on hold as I think it might be better to replace my arm with a new one. It's a small point but the current arm has a damaged arm lift "nub" and I'm too scared to wing it with lifting and dropping the needle manually. Yeah, I know I'm a big chicken!

[DSJR]

Techie arm bits are readily available on ebay..

The OM20 stylus would be fine with a basically clear sound if a touch unrefined when compared to its peers. I suggest you try this route while saving for a better arm.

Yes, the OM20 will easily reproduce the effects of a different mat, as indeed will the OM pro I think, due to its higher playing weight. The Herbies/Sound HiFi mat would be the best option I think, as the techie platter "lip" has been taken into account. The record "clamp/weight" should also be looked into as part of the deal..

[dmckean]

I wonder if the Digitrac 200 NE stylus would fit. I know it fits on OM5E.

http://www.jettsales.com/58.html

It's nude elliptical like the OM20 stylus. That would save you a ton if you're on a tight budget.

[therockst4r]

Techie arm bits are readily available on ebay..

The OM20 stylus would be fine with a basically clear sound if a touch unrefined when compared to its peers. I suggest you try this route while saving for a better arm.

Yes, the OM20 will easily reproduce the effects of a different mat, as indeed will the OM pro I think, due to its higher playing weight. The Herbies/Sound HiFi mat would be the best option I think, as the techie platter "lip" has been taken into account. The record "clamp/weight" should also be looked into as part of the deal..

I am going to see if I can find that stylus for a good price, but the record weight I am going to make myself probably. As for the mat I will contact Dave and see what he says. Thanks for the help.

[therockst4r]

Ok, I ordered a jico OM 30 stylus. I will report back with the results when that arrives.