Exposure amp: should I turn it off when I don't listen to music?

[ludovico]

Hi.

I use an Exposure XX integrated amp (built in 1994). Should I leave the amp always powered up (like Naim stuff) or should I turn it off after listening to music?

I don't own the amp user's manual but I think there should be some advice from Exposure...

[ludovico]

Edit, I have just found the answer in a manual I found online. http://www.exposurehifi.com/images/pdf/testupload/Classic_IV_XIII_XV_XVII_XVIII_XXI_XXV_Integrated-Pre-Stereo-Mono_Amplifiers.pdf

For Exposure preamps:

Typically, full performance conditions are reached within 24 hours. We, therefore recommend leaving the preamplifier’s power supply switched on continuously. There are no associated penalties with regard to reliability or longevity (indeed, electronic components generally have longer lives when powered up continuously), and this practice ensures optimum musical performance whenever you wish to enjoy music on your system.

For Exposure power amps & integrated:

Power amplifiers typically reach stable operating conditions more quickly than preamplifiers (Usually less than an hour), hence the desirability of keeping them continuously powered up is a bit less than with preamplifiers. There is little reason that the power amplifier may not be left on continuously, but would point out that prudence would dictate switching the power amplifier off when one is leaving one’s residence for long periods of time (e.g. a holiday). Electrical storms or catastrophic mains faults can occur without one’s knowledge while one is away with potentially tragic results for one’s amplifier and loudspeakers.

[Audio Al]

I turn all my hifi OFF when not it use

[Scooby]

Turn it off. It only takes a few minutes to come on song anyway.

[Gordon Steadman]

I think I must have been deaf for my entire lifetime.

Apart from the Leak, all my amps are transistor and I have never left any of them switched on, even through the mad snake oily times in the 70s and 80s. By the time I've loaded up the TT/CDP/Tape machine whatever, I have never noticed any change in sound thereafter.

All part of the mystique I reckon. I can sort of buy into the switching on and off is bad for components bit but sound....nah! The standing current may well be tiny but it is still using power which over a long time, adds up. Cupfulls of water would eventually fill the sea and all that.

The only stuff that has needed repair during the last 50 years is the very old stuff which you would expect to be showing signs of wear anyway. Maybe I've just been lucky.

[OD1]

I used to own a 2010s integrated amp, and the manual stated it took 30 mins from switch on to fully warm up, so I always switched off when not playing.

[Gomers]

My 1010 amp gets switched off after listening. Powered up prior to some listening with a bit of signal through it to warm the innards. In the days when I used to live at my parents, I may have left stuff on for a days at a time but paying for my own energy needs nowadays, these things change :)

Have you ever had the XX serviced ?

[struth]

Might be well to check with your insurance company as to doing that. They may say no. It can be dangerous, especially power amps, or anything with valves in. I also disagree re components lasting longer in general. Capacitors for instance have an hr life, and using them 24/7 is going to use that up.

[DSJR]

Back in the dark days of bad transistor matching and caps run within an inch of their lives (on many UK made models anyway), the circuit would take an age to stabilise and then have a short service life before sometimes expensive attention was necessary... Even Quad weren't immune, as I have owned two 405's in the past, no more than eleven years old at the time and both had physically leaky supply caps and one of them was NEVER thrashed! These days, transistors are apparently better made and match better from stock, caps last longer and it's better understood how to over-spec them for even longer life as they're relatively cheaper now, so *hopefully,* you won't have amps with 'temperament' any more, unless it'[s a hair-shirt design with design quirks - in my opinion.

[Arkless Electronics]

Switch off when not in use. The manual is wrong.

[Pieoftheday]

I used to leave my system on and thought it made an improvement, it didn't, it was the whiskey or wine :cool:

[ludovico]

Switch off when not in use. The manual is wrong.

Sorry but I trust the manual (and Exposure) more than you…

[southall-1998]

Switch off when not in use. The manual is wrong.


Mr Farlowe is gonna get ya :D

S.

[ludovico]

Mr Farlowe is gonna get ya :D

S.

I trust J. Farlowe much more than anyone saying "the manual is wrong".

[ludovico]

My 1010 amp gets switched off after listening. Powered up prior to some listening with a bit of signal through it to warm the innards. In the days when I used to live at my parents, I may have left stuff on for a days at a time but paying for my own energy needs nowadays, these things change :)

Have you ever had the XX serviced ?

Why are you asking that? The 1010 is not a XX, an yes I just got the amp serviced, but all the caps were in perfect shape and the measurements showed no problem, so there was absolutely nothing to repair or any component to change.
As I quite not like the answers here, I think I will send an email to Exposure instead...

[Macca]

Edit, I have just found the answer in a manual I found online. http://www.exposurehifi.com/images/pdf/testupload/Classic_IV_XIII_XV_XVII_XVIII_XXI_XXV_Integrated-Pre-Stereo-Mono_Amplifiers.pdf

For Exposure preamps:

Typically, full performance conditions are reached within 24 hours. We, therefore recommend leaving the preamplifier’s power supply switched on continuously. There are no associated penalties with regard to reliability or longevity (indeed, electronic components generally have longer lives when powered up continuously), and this practice ensures optimum musical performance whenever you wish to enjoy music on your system.

For Exposure power amps & integrated:

Power amplifiers typically reach stable operating conditions more quickly than preamplifiers (Usually less than an hour), hence the desirability of keeping them continuously powered up is a bit less than with preamplifiers. There is little reason that the power amplifier may not be left on continuously, but would point out that prudence would dictate switching the power amplifier off when one is leaving one’s residence for long periods of time (e.g. a holiday). Electrical storms or catastrophic mains faults can occur without one’s knowledge while one is away with potentially tragic results for one’s amplifier and loudspeakers.

You have the Exposure manual which says leave it powered on. No point contacting them unless you think they may have changed their minds in the intervening years.

Which I suppose is possible, since whether reliability is improved or worsened by leaving kit powered up all the time has been debated many times on forums and even professional audio engineers sometimes disagree on the issue.

[Gomers]

Why are you asking that? The 1010 is not a XX, an yes I just got the amp serviced, but all the caps were in perfect shape and the measurements showed no problem, so there was absolutely nothing to repair or any component to change.
As I quite not like the answers here, I think I will send an email to Exposure instead...

I was simply asking whether in the 20 odd years since the amp had been built, it had had any servicing of any type. And yes, I'm aware my 1010 is not an XX, thanks for pointing it out.

The question you originally posed was bound to elicit different reactions, if you trust the manual more than the opinions, think you have answered your own thread.

[Lawrence001]

X2


I was simply asking whether in the 20 odd years since the amp had been built, it had had any servicing of any type. And yes, I'm aware my 1010 is not an XX, thanks for pointing it out.

The question you originally posed was bound to illicit different reactions, if you trust the manual more than the opinions, think you have answered your own thread.



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[southall-1998]

I was simply asking whether in the 20 odd years since the amp had been built, it had had any servicing of any type. And yes, I'm aware my 1010 is not an XX, thanks for pointing it out.

The question you originally posed was bound to elicit different reactions, if you trust the manual more than the opinions, think you have answered your own thread.


X3

S.

[Yomanze]

I turn mine off.

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[Arkless Electronics]

Sorry but I trust the manual (and Exposure) more than you…

You are very wrong to do so but entitled to your opinions of course.

[montesquieu]

Never came across a bit of kit yet that wasn't on song by no more than 30 minutes in. Turn it off. Anything else is voodoo electronics.

[The Black Adder]

Turn if OFF.

If it sounds like crap after more than 30 mins from cold then go and buy something which doesn't.

Simples.

[Macca]

I wouldn't even give it thirty minutes. Three minutes is plenty.

Thirty minutes is long enough to convince yourself that a crap sound is a good sound.

Ironically valve amps do seem to improve with time and they are the ones you really can't leave on all the time. Good ones still sound good from switch on though.

[ludovico]

You are very wrong to do so but entitled to your opinions of course.

I don't think so, and Exposure is not the only manufacturer which recommend leaving their amp on, Naim for example.

[Macca]

Naim also recommend you have them serviced by them every ten years.

[Gordon Steadman]

Strangely, not a single person who has replied here has said leave it on. People on this forum have experience going back for 50+ years and several of them are engineers and designers. I have known several electronics experts, including my brother who was in the team that designed the guidance system for the Blue Streak rocket. He always switches his hi-fi off - I asked him and he says there is no point in leaving it on.

So there you go. Waste the electricity and ignore the people you asked in the first place.

I think they used to switch the rocket guidance system off when not in use as well:)

[ludovico]

Strangely, not a single person who has replied here has said leave it on. People on this forum have experience going back for 50+ years and several of them are engineers and designers. I have known several electronics experts, including my brother who was in the team that designed the guidance system for the Blue Streak rocket. He always switches his hi-fi off - I asked him and he says there is no point in leaving it on.

So there you go. Waste the electricity and ignore the people you asked in the first place.

I think they used to switch the rocket guidance system off when not in use as well:)

This is very strange indeed, I know many many owners of british amps who leave their amps on because it sounds better indeed. I choose to ignore your advices because unless you have more experience than J. Farlowe, the manual is the only right answer.

[Gordon Steadman]

If you believe that then you have no problem.

[southall-1998]

ludovico, do what you please with your Exposure amps. WE DON'T CARE!!!!!

S.

[ludovico]

ludovico, do what you please with your Exposure amps. WE DON'T CARE!!!!!

S.

So why are you replying to this thread?

[southall-1998]

So why are you replying to this thread?


Your thread is meaningless! Hence my sarcastic response.

S.

[ludovico]

Your thread is meaningless! Hence my sarcastic response.

S.

As I said, most of the time people should trust the owner's manual rather than nonsense advices.

[southall-1998]

Yes, I understand. These kinds of threads will attract different types of opinions. So be warned!

Enjoy the Exposure amp. Nice punchy sounding thing!

S.

[Lawrence001]

I was going to put something scathing about why ask a question if you already have the only answer you will believe. But looking back at the start the OP asked the question and then quickly updated it to say they had found the manual and hence the answer. Possibly with the meaning that they didn't need to know any more. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one and say there's no contradiction here. Shall we stop winding him up and getting wound up ourselves?


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[Gomers]

Shall we stop winding him up and getting wound up ourselves?


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�� Errr....

Some of the OPs responses have been a little prickly shall we say but of course, you are right.

To the OP, you have a wonderful amp there, please enjoy it. Huge fan of the company's amps myself based purely on their budget offering which is a stellar product in my book.

[Gordon Steadman]

My last comment here would be to remind the OP that leaving stuff on was all the rage, ie. the fashion, at one time and the manual may well reflect this. Times and habits change although there are still a few that cling on to them.

PS. By the way, thanks for the vote of confidence in all the people trying to help you here:)

[Lawrence001]

I am convinced that my musical fidelity Studio T sounded cleaner and less glassy after a few hours warm up. When I had the house to myself for the weekend I would switch it on on Friday night and leave it til Sunday.


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[Gordon Steadman]

I think that's absolutely fine. If you gain benefit from it then go for it. However the thread is entitled 'should I leave it on'.

[Arkless Electronics]

This is very strange indeed, I know many many owners of british amps who leave their amps on because it sounds better indeed. I choose to ignore your advices because unless you have more experience than J. Farlowe, the manual is the only right answer.

I do. But please yourself.... I get several repairs a year in which are usually big expensive jobs and due to people having left their amps on 24/7... I should be encouraging it!

[The Black Adder]

Do what suits you but my advice is to switch it off.

[Yomanze]

I am going to trust the professional service / repair engineer on this one (Jez / Arkless).

[Yomanze]

My DAC goes off, because it runs in class A and the DAC chip runs hot (TTL logic). The other kit am not as concerned about, but will start to switch it off methinks.

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[Gordon Steadman]

If I don't switch everything off, Ronnie would give me a slap.

If you could see the size of her...biceps, you'd do what you were told as well:punch:

[Yomanze]

If I don't switch everything off, Ronnie would give me a slap.

If you could see the size of her...biceps, you'd do what you were told as well:punch:
Oo'er! :D

[montesquieu]

My last comment here would be to remind the OP that leaving stuff on was all the rage, ie. the fashion, at one time and the manual may well reflect this. Times and habits change although there are still a few that cling on to them.

PS. By the way, thanks for the vote of confidence in all the people trying to help you here:)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA5gJ0hZpCc

[ludovico]

I do. But please yourself.... I get several repairs a year in which are usually big expensive jobs and due to people having left their amps on 24/7... I should be encouraging it!

That's weird, still, I don't believe you, Exposure has no interest in telling their customers to leave their stuff on if this means they need to have them repaired frequently. Still, Exposure builds very reliable stuff so I don't see why we should not trust their advices.

[prestonchipfryer]

It's amazing isn't it? Someone asking advice and getting said advice. Then totally ignoring it like other peoples' opinions have no relevance. Arguing just for the sake of arguing. ;)

[Macca]

That's weird, still, I don't believe you, Exposure has no interest in telling their customers to leave their stuff on if this means they need to have them repaired frequently. .

Unless their repair/servicing department is one of their better revenue streams...

These days they are built in China along with all the budget consumer electronics. I'm sure they are perfectly reliable but it isn't John Farlowe hand-building them on his kitchen table no more.

[Gordon Steadman]

Designers have opinions too. It's clear from the response here that those opinions can differ.

The answer is to do what you want and take the consequences - if any.

[struth]

Which got info from freedom of info via govt that malfunctioning household appliances caused almost 12000 fires in Britain in just over three years. My uncle was senior fire officer and training officer for central Scotland in his day and reckoned that they and chimneys were the 2 main causes then. seems folk dont get out of the habit of leaving things on unattended.

[Lawrence001]

I've always thought the world would be a better place if people spoke their mind instead of trying not to cause offence. Still there are better ways..


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[Scooby]

The risks have been explained. The sonic benefits of leaving on have been disagreed over. I'd suggest you listen for yourself and the decide. FWIW I agree with Jez but it's your amp and your ears.

[Gomers]

Unless their repair/servicing department is one of their better revenue streams...

These days they are built in China along with all the budget consumer electronics. I'm sure they are perfectly reliable but it isn't John Farlowe hand-building them on his kitchen table no more.

That's not correct though, is it ? The 1010s are Malaysian built, whilst everything else is made in UK, isn't it ?

[Macca]

Well Malaysia, China, same difference.

If the more expensive stuff is UK built then I will happily stand corrected.

[Arkless Electronics]

I've always thought the world would be a better place if people spoke their mind instead of trying not to cause offence. Still there are better ways..


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One tries... It seems my pithy appraisal of the OP was removed though... I'm sure he knows what he is...

[anthonyTD]

No reasonable argument for leaving things on 24/7, taking into acount of course; the risk of inrush surge potential each time a piece of kit is switched on initialy.
Other than that, if a piece of kit needs many hours of running, to reach its optimum performance potential, IMHO its not been designed properly in the first place.
A...

[walpurgis]

If something is 'on', it's in use. Things in use wear out!

[The Black Adder]

No reasonable argument for leaving things on 24/7, taking into acount of course; the risk of inrush surge potential each time a piece of kit is switched on initialy.
Other than that, if a piece of kit needs many hours of running, to reach its optimum performance potential, IMHO its not been designed properly in the first place.
A...

+1

[Clive197]

Having just read this thread all the way through, I'm a little surprised that nobody has mentioned 'stand-by'. I'm also of the opinion that it is not a good idea to leave any kit on 24/7, cost being only part of the equation.

Does the OP mean turn off at mains or turn off into stand-by. It is my understanding that as a CE/EU requirement, stand-by may only draw 0.5 watt, enough only to power a on/off or remote circuit and effectively leaving the main circuit devoid of any leccy at all. I'm :scratch: confused.

[Marco]

No reasonable argument for leaving things on 24/7, taking into acount of course; the risk of inrush surge potential each time a piece of kit is switched on initialy.


For me, that's the valid argument for keeping all non-valve equipment switched on, as in 30+ years as a hi-fi enthusiast, using all manner of different equipment, I've never had anything fail after being left switched on for long periods of time. The only time that's happened has been initially on switch on, which is why I leave all my SS gear in a steady operational state, 24/7.

Of course I appreciate that components wear out when used; that is an indisputable fact, but in my personal experience (and that's all one can ever go on) it's more likely to happen when stuff is continually being switched on and off, than otherwise. YMMV.

As ever though, that's only my opinion, and there is no one definitive answer to the 'on or off' debate, so just do what you think makes the most sense :)

Marco.

P.S Jez, if you ever again call anyone here a "tosser", or similar, you'll be banned for a week without any further warning, as we don't address each other here in such derogatory terms - oh, and the matter is not up for debate!

[Marco]

Having just read this thread all the way through, I'm a little surprised that nobody has mentioned 'stand-by'.

Good point, Clive, and stand-by mode (if available) is probably the best compromise, as it nullifies the issue Anthony mentioned earlier when equipment is switched on from cold. The reason why it's not been mentioned much is perhaps because a lot of the 'purist'-type equipment many of us use doesn't have that facility :)

Marco.

[Gomers]

Good point, Clive, and stand-by mode (if available) is probably the best compromise, as it nullifies the issue Anthony mentioned earlier when equipment is switched on from cold. The reason why it's not been mentioned much is perhaps because a lot of the 'purist'-type equipment many of us use doesn't have that facility :)

Marco.

Agreed, in the case of Exposure gear, no option but on or off.

[Marco]

Yup, and a lot of minimalist 'high-end' kit is like that. It tends to be stuff from the larger mainstream manufacturers that has a stand-by facility. For example. my Sony AV amp is fitted with it.

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

I leave my digital gear, DACs on and my Moon Cd player - they sound better left on. Transports don't seem to benefit from being left on. Passlabs X Ono phonostage I leave on - sounds better.

Pre-amp, power-amp I leave off. I switch the pre on about an hour before listening and the power amp about 20 minutes. The pre does have a standby option but I opt to leave it off despite sounding better left in standby.

Some gear sounds better that way, I think it way too easy and somewhat of a cop out to say.... 'well it can't be well made or designed' if that is the case, rather than investigate why that might be the case.

I have argued on here before re CD players and DACs that use TDA1541 sound better left on - that is my experience over my entire audio life. Some don't agree... fair enough.

[Marco]

I have argued on here before re CD players and DACs that use TDA1541 sound better left on - that is my experience over my entire audio life. Some don't agree... fair enough.

Interesting, Neil. That's certainly the case with my Sony DAS-R1 DAC, which uses those chips. However, it's not simply the fact that most electronics sound better after having been left switched on or had some warm-up time from cold; it's that (for me) it appears to fail less often that way.

That's primarily why I leave my SS gear switched on, as I can easily live with a slightly inferior sound for half an hour or so until my kit has warmed up...

Oh, and both the DAC and my Sony X-777ES CDP (used as a transport) have been switched on now, almost continually for nearly 8 years - and they are still going strong! ;)

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Good point, Clive, and stand-by mode (if available) is probably the best compromise, as it nullifies the issue Anthony mentioned earlier when equipment is switched on from cold. The reason why it's not been mentioned much is perhaps because a lot of the 'purist'-type equipment many of us use here doesn't have that facility :)

Marco.

No it doesn't and in well designed equipment it's not an issue anyway.....

[Lawrence001]

If the point of leaving equipment on is to keep it warm to sound better then a CE compliant 0.5w or whatever standby mode is not going to be able to do that.


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[Marco]

No it doesn't and in well designed equipment it's not an issue anyway.....

Ok, so explain why when equipment is in stand-by mode it doesn't help alleviate in-rush surge potential?

Also, every bit of audio equipment I've owned from day one, to a greater or lesser extent, sounds better after having been switched on for 15-20 mins, including Anthony's hand-built from scratch £5k Copper amp. So are you saying then that it's not well designed?

Marco.

[Marco]

If the point of leaving equipment on is to keep it warm to sound better then a CE compliant 0.5w or whatever standby mode is not going to be able to do that.


Agreed. The point in that instance is that it can minimise the likelihood of it failing, when being switched on from cold. At least in my experience, that's what happens.

Marco.

[Gordon Steadman]

I reckon the switch on thing is more about the ears than the equipment. Yes after a short period things can start to sound better. However, I suspect it's much more likely to be the ears tuning into the music and the concentration being er...concentrated.

I have noticed that leaving the hi-fi on after a session and then going back to listen to it again causes the same readjustment period. Just a few minutes usually.

When it comes right down to it, all this is not very important is it? Just do whatever it takes to enjoy the music and don't get all airy if someone does it a different way.

[Lawrence001]

I've always thought that for some reason silicon based gain components like transistors opamps etc lose their edgy sound as they get warmer. Good design could reduce this (and a lot of amps in the last 10-20 years seem to have done so but arguably at the expense of "excitement") but fundamentally I see it as a limitation of the material.


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[Marco]

When it comes right down to it, all this is not very important is it? Just do whatever it takes to enjoy the music and don't get all airy if someone does it a different way.

Exactly, but some folks here with rather absolutist views like to ram them down other people's throats as 'indisputable facts' ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

I've always thought that for some reason silicon based gain components like transistors opamps etc lose their edgy sound as they get warmer.


That's certainly what my ears have always told me, Lawrence :)

But, valve gear seems to sound better too, in that respect. Perhaps Anthony, or someone else technically qualified (with an open mind), could offer a suitable explanation?

Marco.

[Lawrence001]

I reckon the switch on thing is more about the ears than the equipment. Yes after a short period things can start to sound better. However, I suspect it's much more likely to be the ears tuning into the music and the concentration being er...concentrated.

I have noticed that leaving the hi-fi on after a session and then going back to listen to it again causes the same readjustment period. Just a few minutes usually.

When it comes right down to it, all this is not very important is it? Just do whatever it takes to enjoy the music and don't get all airy if someone does it a different way.

It's important if the improvement I hear when my amp and dac have warmed up is something someone else is willing to pay £1000 to hear. But I'm starting to think it's a slippery slope and there's no end point but that's another debate.


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[Arkless Electronics]

Ok, so explain why when equipment is in stand-by mode it doesn't help alleviate in-rush surge potential?

Also, every bit of audio equipment I've owned from day one, to a greater or lesser extent, sounds better after having been switched on for 15-20 mins, including Anthony's hand-built from scratch £5k Copper amp. So are you saying then that it's not well designed?

Marco.

We probably need a wide range of opinions on this from brick layers, used car sales men, lorry drivers, butchers etc really...

As for the second part of your post well I've an allergy to straw....

[Marco]

If you can't come up with anything better than that, Jez, then best say nothing at all.

I'd watch your step though, as you're starting to piss me off again with your "I know it all because I'm an EE' bullshit - and you know how that ends up. So give it a rest while you think you're ahead, and allow others to form their own (legitimate) opinions on audio, free from the tiresome absolutist dogma you insist on perpetrating.

Marco.

[Macca]

We probably need a wide range of opinions on this from brick layers, used car sales men, lorry drivers, butchers etc really...

As for the second part of your post well I've an allergy to straw....

I used to sell used cars, and commercial vehicles. So you're spot on there.

[Gordon Steadman]

It's important if the improvement I hear when my amp and dac have warmed up is something someone else is willing to pay £1000 to hear. But I'm starting to think it's a slippery slope and there's no end point but that's another debate.


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Only starting to think it's a slippery slope:eek:

[Lawrence001]

Only starting to think it's a slippery slope:eek:

I should clarify I've known it's a slippery slope for years but I thought there would be an end. Now I'm so close to the sound I want and I'm still thinking of getting a new pre for a small marginal change then I'm now thinking I'll never be happy while I think there's an improvement to be made.


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[Gomers]

I should clarify I've known it's a slippery slope for years but I thought there would be an end. Now I'm so close to the sound I want and I'm still thinking of getting a new pre for a small marginal change then I'm now thinking I'll never be happy while I think there's an improvement to be made.


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I'd go out on a limb and say that's probably where 99% of us are Lawrence ��

There are also the budget concerns that constrain many of us, the law of diminishing returns and the rest of it...... Still here we are...and my, hasn't this thread gone off-piste ��

What was the question again...?

[Spectral Morn]

Interesting, Neil. That's certainly the case with my Sony DAS-R1 DAC, which uses those chips. However, it's not simply the fact that most electronics sound better after having been left switched on or had some warm-up time from cold; it's that (for me) it appears to fail less often that way.

That's primarily why I leave my SS gear switched on, as I can easily live with a slightly inferior sound for half an hour or so until my kit has warmed up...

Oh, and both the DAC and my Sony X-777ES CDP (used as a transport) have been switched on now, almost continually for nearly 8 years - and they are still going strong! ;)

Marco.

Most of the players I have owned (Marantz multi bit) from getting into audio have used those DAC chips and my early finding were they sounded better left on, and I hold that position still today.

[Barry]

Apart from two changes of premises and the occasional power cut, my electrostatic speakers have be left energised 24/7 for the last forty years.

My preamps and phonostages are also left on, as that is what the designer recommends. The CD player is left in standby mode, whereby the laser is switched off, but the electronics are on. If the player is switched off completely, it can take up to a couple of hours for the sound to "come on song".

All power amps, whether valve or solid-state, are switched off when not in use.

[Lawrence001]

Apart from two changes of premises and the occasional power cut, my electrostatic speakers have be left energised 24/7 for the last forty years.

My preamps and phonostages are also left on, as that is what the designer recommends. The CD player is left in standby mode, whereby the laser is switched off, but the electronics are on. If the player is switched off completely, it can take up to a couple of hours for the sound to "come on song".

All power amps, whether valve or solid-state, are switched off when not in use.

Interesting. Any valves in the pres/dacs left on all that time?


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[Marco]

Apart from two changes of premises and the occasional power cut, my electrostatic speakers have be left energised 24/7 for the last forty years.


What's the thinking behind that then, Barry? Do you consider that they're less liable to fail that way/will last longer, or that they sound better that way - or both? :)

Marco.

[Barry]

What's the thinking behind that then, Barry? Do you consider that they're less liable to fail that way/will last longer, or that they sound better that way - or both? :)

Marco.

They only consume 6W each and it's what Peter Walker (who designed the speakers) did: his were only switched off when he went away on holiday. If they are switched off they take a few minutes to charge up (with some it can be as much as 20 minutes), and the output is curtailed at the frequency extremes until fully charged.

Some claim that frequent switching on and off will shorten the lifetime of the diodes used in the voltage multiplier due to current in-rush.

[anthonyTD]

Hi All,
Ok, Standby mode on most equipment is a function which enables the item to be woken up with a remote, therefore, it will activate some form of relay circuit, or other type of electronic switch, which inturn does pretty much the same as one switching the device on from a physical switch, ie; same inrush potential etc.
I think [hope] this was the point Jez was refering to.
Although, some older equipment that was made before the new low current legislation could indeed have parts of the circuit still active when in a so called standby.
I hope this helps.
As for valve equipment, valves by nature are hot devices, they take time to stabilise, therefore; it is safe to say' they do get better after a half hour or so of being on, once they' and the circuitry around them stabilise.
Transistors, and their imediate circuitry also need a bit of time to stabilise after initial switch on, but the point I was making in my earlier post was; if a piece of audio equipment needs to be left on for many hours to reach its full potential, then IMHO its not something I personaly would be happy about.
A...

[Marco]

Ok, Standby mode on most equipment is a function which enables the item to be woken up with a remote, therefore, it will activate some form of relay circuit, or other type of electronic switch, which inturn does pretty much the same as one switching the device on from a physical switch, ie; same inrush potential etc.
I think [hope] this was the point Jez was refering to.
Although, some older equipment that was made before the new low current legislation could indeed have parts of the circuit still active when in a so called standby.


That was also my understanding. So in effect, with the latter, it would result in a 'softer' start-up, more likely to protect the equipment against failing due to in-rush potential? :)


As for valve equipment, valves by nature are hot devices, they take time to stabilise, therefore; it is safe to say' they do get better after a half hour or so of being on, once they' and the circuitry around them stabilise.
Transistors, and their imediate circuitry also need a bit of time to stabilise after initial switch on...


Exactly my experience also - and you can clearly hear the sonic effect of that, and the improvement when the circuitry has 'warmed up' and stabilised.


...but the point I was making in my earlier post was; if a piece of audio equipment needs to be left on for many hours to reach its full potential, then IMHO its not something I personaly would be happy about.


Indeed, and neither would I, as clearly such equipment would be badly designed or faulty.

There's a big difference, however, between that and the stabilising time (usually no more than 20 mins or so from switch on) discussed above, and so in that scenario the subsequent sonic improvement gained is NOT a result of the equipment being badly designed.

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

Indeed, and neither would I, as clearly such equipment would be badly designed or faulty.



Marco.
Tell that to the Naim brigade..:rolleyes:

[Marco]

Lol - oh I remember it all too well, Dave, when I was one of them and indoctrinated with that dogma! Two weeks for a Supercap to come on song, anyone? :eyebrows: :doh:

Marco.

[struth]

Only thing ive had that liked to be on premenantly was a monarchy dac. Either on all time or switch on a day before you fancy some music :doh: fortunately it used little power and was relatively safe to leave on. Didnt actually have a switch anyway so you had to pull the plug. Dont think that would be allowed now.

[hifi_dave]

See my post elsewhere about a low energy light bulb catching fire and you needn't ask me about keeping anything powered permanently..:mad:

[walpurgis]

Only thing ive had that liked to be on premenantly was a monarchy dac. Either on all time or switch on a day before you fancy some music :doh: fortunately it used little power and was relatively safe to leave on. Didnt actually have a switch anyway so you had to pull the plug. Dont think that would be allowed now.

The Monarchy Audio DACs (I have two) definitely do like some time to warm up.

They start off sounding acceptable, but a bit flat and graduate to superb and lucid over the next fifteen to twenty minutes.

My Monarchy Audio amps do the same. The transformation of the sound is very striking.

There again, not unexpectedly, my valve amps take as long to come on song.

[Marco]

Bollox, they must just be badly designed - either that or you're imagining it! :D

;)

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Hi All,
Ok, Standby mode on most equipment is a function which enables the item to be woken up with a remote, therefore, it will activate some form of relay circuit, or other type of electronic switch, which inturn does pretty much the same as one switching the device on from a physical switch, ie; same inrush potential etc.
I think [hope] this was the point Jez was refering to.
Although, some older equipment that was made before the new low current legislation could indeed have parts of the circuit still active when in a so called standby.
I hope this helps.
As for valve equipment, valves by nature are hot devices, they take time to stabilise, therefore; it is safe to say' they do get better after a half hour or so of being on, once they' and the circuitry around them stabilise.
Transistors, and their imediate circuitry also need a bit of time to stabilise after initial switch on, but the point I was making in my earlier post was; if a piece of audio equipment needs to be left on for many hours to reach its full potential, then IMHO its not something I personaly would be happy about.
A...

Precisely so but by that time I suspected a certain person would say even a switch operating or not operating would be nothing more than my opinion so it was time for sarcasm mode....

[Marco]

Precisely so but by that time I suspected a certain person would say even a switch operating or not operating would be nothing more than my opinion so it was time for sarcasm mode....

Not at all. You've simply made an incorrect assumption, as indeed you're prone to doing.

I think we've pretty much established that there's a valid electrical reason for equipment (both valve and SS) sounding better after a short period or warming up, and that it's got nothing to do with it being badly designed :)

Marco.

[DSJR]

Bollox, they must just be badly designed - either that or you're imagining it! :D

;)

Marco.

I still wonder if a rethink on the supplies, offsets and bias settings on the line buffer, plus checking internal shielding and so on, wouldn't all-but eliminate any warm-up characteristics? Maybe it's a less than clean mains making it worse? I suspect We're blessed here and the downstairs setup doesn't use a BMU (nowhere to put it).

[Arkless Electronics]

Not at all. You've simply made an incorrect assumption, as indeed you're prone to doing.

I think we've pretty much established that there's a valid electrical reason for equipment (both valve and SS) sounding better after a short period or warming up, and that it's got nothing to do with it being badly designed :)

Marco.

At no point in the thread was I even discussing this! Not even slightly! Hence I was peeved that you tried to twist my words into my saying Anthony's amps are badly designed when A/ I wasn't discussing sound quality B/ You mentioned your Copper amp. Not me. I didn't mention any amp. C/ I was referring solely to bad design or not in provision of suitable soft start etc in amps that may need it and this should have been obvious. Talk about making "incorrect assumptions"!
Even after Anthony explaining the stand by switch on arrangements of almost all gear you still had to try and twist the fact that a small number of amps, TV's etc, 20 years ago, may have been partly on all the time, to try and show yourself right in the assumption that all equipment in stand by is partly on and has no switch on surge.....cos Marco's always right.... and you wonder why I'm driven to sarcasm :eyebrows: :)

[Arkless Electronics]

If the thread drift has got us onto improved sound after a warm up period rather than "should equipment be left on 24/7 for reliability" and "does switch on surge effect reliability" then I started a thread not long ago in which I reported that I had found unexpectedly large changes in the characteristics of electrolytic capacitors with temperature changes as "little" as 20C. I suggest that this is playing a pretty big part in the SQ changes in the half hour or so after switching on.
I recall , maybe in the same thread, also discussing changes in semiconductors with temperature....

[Marco]

At no point in the thread was I even discussing this! Not even slightly!


Really??

Then why when Bastien (the OP) quoted this text from his amp's manual:

"Power amplifiers typically reach stable operating conditions more quickly than preamplifiers (Usually less than an hour), hence the desirability of keeping them continuously powered up is a bit less than with preamplifiers."

...did you write this:


The manual is wrong.


...thereby implying [along with whatever else was in your head at the time] that amplifiers don't need to reach stable operating conditions in order to perform optimally?

If you read the thread again from the beginning, you'll see that the whole reason why the OP was interested in whether it was best to leave his amp on or not, was to do with sound quality, not if it would last longer one way or the other, although that may have been a secondary consideration.

Therefore, if you were solely referring to the latter, and basing your argument on that, you should've made yourself much clearer!


]Even after Anthony explaining the stand by switch on arrangements of almost all gear you still had to try and twist the fact that a small number of amps, TV's etc, 20 years ago, may have been partly on all the time, to try and show yourself right in the assumption that all equipment in stand by is partly on and has no switch on surge.....cos Marco's always right.... and you wonder why I'm driven to sarcasm...

Ha - you are the master of the 'always right brigade', sweetheart! :lol:

Your responses earlier to the OP ably demonstrate that. Clearly the engineers at Exposure differ with your views on whether their amps should remain powered up or not, therefore it's simply a difference of opinion between their EE(s) and you.

The fact is, there is no categorically right or wrong answer in this instance [as an aside, I completely agree with the stance Exposure are holding, as it confirms my own personal experience with many different amplifiers].

But that's not good enough for Jez, 'the master of correctness', is it? You HAVE to be right because you know it all! :rolleyes:

Read your responses again to Bastien and see how arrogant they come across, and then when you don't get your own way by convincing him that you know more than the designer of his amp, you descend into invective by calling him a "tosser"... :doh:

So, forgive me, I don't think you're in a position to lecture anyone here on their behaviour!!

What you need to learn is once you've said what you have to say, and if someone legitimately disagrees, then allow them that privilege without feeling the need to batter them into submission and prove that 'know it all Jez' is unquestionably right.

Marco.

[Joe]

I have Exposure pre/power amps. I switch them both off when not in use, despite what the manual says. I'm such a rebel.

[Marco]

:lolsign:

Don't forget a tightwad, too - think of the cost of all that 'wasted' electricity!! :eek:

Marco.

[Joe]

:lolsign:

Don't forget a tightwad, too - think of the cost of all that 'wasted' electricity!! :eek:

Marco.

Exactly. I switch the freezer off overnight too. That saves shedloads of kilowatts.

[Gordon Steadman]

It's easy to laugh of course, but those of us that believe that mankind is having an effect on the climate, also believe that every little helps. The only things we leave on when not in the house are the freezer and the fridge. During the summer, when we can use the main living room, the Quads stay on as well.

Apart from the fact that I don't see the need, it makes economic sense even if it is only in a small way. Those that are happy to waste precious resources will no doubt carry on as usual.

[Macca]

Exactly. I switch the freezer off overnight too. That saves shedloads of kilowatts.

I don't even have a freezer. That saves 100% of the electric it uses plus the cost of buying one. I get my kicks from wasting water instead, since that isn't metered.

[Gordon Steadman]

I don't even have a freezer. That saves 100% of the electric it uses plus the cost of buying one. I get my kicks from wasting water instead, since that isn't metered.
Congratulations.

[Macca]

Congratulations.

On what?

[Arkless Electronics]

Really??

Then why when Bastien (the OP) quoted this text from his amp's manual:

"Power amplifiers typically reach stable operating conditions more quickly than preamplifiers (Usually less than an hour), hence the desirability of keeping them continuously powered up is a bit less than with preamplifiers."

...did you write this:



...thereby implying [along with whatever else was in your head at the time] that amplifiers don't need to reach stable operating conditions in order to perform optimally?

If you read the thread again from the beginning, you'll see that the whole reason why the OP was interested in whether it was best to leave his amp on or not, was to do with sound quality, not if his amp would last longer one way or the other, although that may have been a secondary consideration.

Therefore, if you were solely referring to the latter, and basing your argument on that, you should've made yourself much clearer!



Ha - you are the master of the 'always right brigade', sweetheart! :lol:

Your responses earlier to the OP ably demonstrate that. Clearly the engineers at Exposure differ with your views on whether their amps should remain powered up or not, therefore it's simply a difference of opinion between their EE(s) and you. There is no categorically right or wrong answer in this instance.

But that's not good enough for Jez, 'the master of correctness', is it? You HAVE to be right because you know it all! Read your responses again to Bastien and see how arrogant they come across, and then when you don't get your own way by convincing him that you know more than the designer of his amp, you descend into invective by calling him a "tosser"... :doh:

So, forgive me, I don't think you're in a position to lecture anyone here on their behaviour!!

What you need to learn is once you've said what you have to say, and if someone legitimately disagrees, then allow them that privilege without feeling the need to batter them into submission and prove that 'know it all Jez' is unquestionably right.

Marco.

I could refute every point one by one and hence join in your game of semantics but that's not my style...

It never ceases to amaze me the way you seem to have some bizarre idea that in the subject of electronics (and hi fi largely IS electronics), end users who largely even admit to knowing nothing about the subject should, bizarrely, maybe by some form of osmosis, pick up such enlightenment as to have equally valid opinions on the subject to someone who has spent a lifetime building, designing and repairing it professionally! One would expect the professional amp designer to be right and the end user amateur to be wrong maybe 99.99% of the time.... well most people would expect it anyway! (Some Tories and kippers apparently also don't believe in experts.... probably until they get a cancer diagnosis and go running to an oncologist...)

Just because one may have driven many miles in cars, for example, owned several and maybe done a few oil changes etc it doesn't put you in a position of knowledge where one may argue the design of the engine, the choice of ignition system, how often an oil change should be done even, with a professional engine designer with decades of experience.... not even if you are so keen on cars as to start a forum on them....

In the same way merely having owned and used a dozen amps, non of which one has taken the cover off and non of which one has understood the inner workings off, does not put one on an even playing field with a professional amp designer in a discussion on amps!

If I tried to discuss brain surgery with an actual brain surgeon I would expect to very quickly look an idiot and probably be told that I don't know my arse from my elbow... and quite rightly!

I have dedicated my life to the study of electronics, especially the analogue electronics of hi fi equipment (but not exclusively), it's much more than a job to me and I could even be said to have "lost" most of my childhood by being "head in radio/amplifier" instead of out kicking a football etc... that's how long I've been doing this... I later went on to make it my career of course. Now if I can be arrogant etc so be it... I don't deny it. It's an arrogance borne of confidence in knowing I'm bloody good at what I do, one of the very best in fact.... Now how do you think I'm likely to react when someone says "I say that "Steve the fishmongers" views on amplifiers are as valid as yours even though he can only just fit a 13A plug"

Spending loads of money on a hobby, reading loads of non technical magazines on it, being hugely enthusiastic about it, but never delving below the surface as to how it actually works, does not somehow "earn" ones "stripes" in the subject. Spending say £100,000 on hi fi and flying to foreign hi fi shows such is ones enthusiasm does not automatically make your "opinion" on the wear, ageing and failure mechanisms of electronic components and systems as valid as someone who has spent a lifetime studying electronic engineering. You can't "buy" into it without doing the studying!

An analogy I've used before (I like analogies as some will have noticed lol) and will come back to as I consider it a very good one, would be to consider a car forum in which 90% of people believe go-faster-stripes actually do make the car faster... there is even a "hierarchy" of folks who apparently know which brand of stripes are the fastest... When someone who actually knows what they are talking about, a professional F1 car designer lets say, comes along and points out that the entire concept of go-faster-stripes making the car faster is total bollocks well it may not go down too well... people have even being arranging meetings to swap said stripes etc and they take it very seriously... Instead of listening to the truth some will put their fingers in their ears and go "la la la la la"... some will have a strop... some will tell the expert where to get off and that his input isn't welcome.. Non of this makes the expert any less correct or the stripes actually work!

...and in the interests of non circularity of argument that is my last word on the subject.... and I'm sure not Marco's!
I will apologise though for calling the op a tosser.... even though he came here asking for advice and then said he planned to ignore all the advice, which came not just from myself.

On another matter arising from the discussion that lead to this, ie manufacturers instructions, I presume most think they are sacrosanct and infallible?
As someone who has had to write quite a few instruction manuals for electronic products and had involvement in overseeing the technical side of even more I can assure people that this is sometimes not so!
They are often written by the marketing department and then have factual/technical errors checked for by engineers. Sometimes errors are not spotted... but more relevant to the discussion is that, if we use the example of the Exposure manual, it's quite likely that it was trendy then to leave stuff on all the time, Naim had maybe already recommended it, and a marketing type would probably come along and say to the engineers "is it ok technically to recommend that the gear is left on 24/7 'cos we think it could help sales?". The engineer would probably reply that it is not really a good idea but that if you must recommend such a thing then it is far better to leave the pre amp on than the power amp as it runs cooler and at lower voltages... purely speculation of course but as I said this sort of thing goes on all the time...

Many a time I've had a marketing type come up to me and ask if they can claim such and such a thing in the specifications and I've pointed out that it would be tenuous and if used in such a manner would probably blow up after 20 minutes.. only to be told that it's very unlikely anyone will try and use it in such a way and that as it would probably do it for 20 mins we can get away with making the claim!!

and people then say "it says so in the manual so it must be 100% correct"... Not always.

[Marco]

Hi Gordon,


It's easy to laugh of course, but those of us that believe that mankind is having an effect on the climate, also believe that every little helps.

I completely agree with your sentiments, and trust me we're reasonably serious 'greenies' in all aspects of our lives, especially Del, as her German heritage dictates so. They were into the whole 'green' thing in Germany WAY before we were!

However, we work on a balance of compromises, so with having a plethora of 'maximum efficiency' eco-appliances at home and recycling as much stuff as we can [Del is obsessive about this], I think that I can afford to leave my CDP and DAC switched on (for reasons already explained), and still have a lower overall carbon footprint than most others... ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

I could refute every point one by one and hence join in your game of semantics but that's not my style...

It never ceases to amaze me the way you seem to have some bizarre idea that in the subject of electronics (and hi fi largely IS electronics), end users who largely even admit to knowing nothing about the subject should, bizarrely, maybe by some form of osmosis, pick up such enlightenment as to have equally valid opinions on the subject to someone who has spent a lifetime building, designing and repairing it professionally! One would expect the professional amp designer to be right and the end user amateur to be wrong maybe 99.99% of the time.... well most people would expect it anyway! (Some Tories and kippers apparently also don't believe in experts.... probably until they get a cancer diagnosis and go running to an oncologist...)

Just because one may have driven many miles in cars, for example, owned several and maybe done a few oil changes etc it doesn't put you in a position of knowledge where one may argue the design of the engine, the choice of ignition system, how often an oil change should be done even, with a professional engine designer with decades of experience.... not even if you are so keen on cars as to start a forum on them....

In the same way merely having owned and used a dozen amps, non of which one has taken the cover off and non of which one has understood the inner workings off, does not put one on an even playing field with a professional amp designer in a discussion on amps!

If I tried to discuss brain surgery with an actual brain surgeon I would expect to very quickly look an idiot and probably be told that I don't know my arse from my elbow... and quite rightly!

I have dedicated my life to the study of electronics, especially the analogue electronics of hi fi equipment (but not exclusively), it's much more than a job to me and I could even be said to have "lost" most of my childhood by being "head in radio/amplifier" instead of out kicking a football etc... that's how long I've been doing this... I later went on to make it my career of course. Now if I can be arrogant etc so be it... I don't deny it. It's an arrogance borne of confidence in knowing I'm bloody good at what I do, one of the very best in fact.... Now how do you think I'm likely to react when someone says "I say that "Steve the fishmongers" views on amplifiers are as valid as yours even though he can only just fit a 13A plug"

Spending loads of money on a hobby, reading loads of non technical magazines on it, being hugely enthusiastic about it, but never delving below the surface as to how it actually works, does not somehow "earn" ones "stripes" in the subject. Spending say £100,000 on hi fi and flying to foreign hi fi shows such is ones enthusiasm does not automatically make your "opinion" on the wear, ageing and failure mechanisms of electronic components and systems as valid as someone who has spent a lifetime studying electronic engineering. You can't "buy" into it without doing the studying!

An analogy I've used before (I like analogies as some will have noticed lol) and will come back to as I consider it a very good one, would be to consider a car forum in which 90% of people believe go-faster-stripes actually do make the car faster... there is even a "hierarchy" of folks who apparently know which brand of stripes are the fastest... When someone who actually knows what they are talking about, a professional F1 car designer lets say, comes along and points out that the entire concept of go-faster-stripes making the car faster is total bollocks well it may not go down too well... people have even being arranging meetings to swap said stripes etc and they take it very seriously... Instead of listening to the truth some will put their fingers in their ears and go "la la la la la"... some will have a strop... some will tell the expert where to get off and that his input isn't welcome.. Non of this makes the expert any less correct or the stripes actually work!

...and in the interests of non circularity of argument that is my last word on the subject.... and I'm sure not Marco's!
I will apologise though for calling the op a tosser.... even though he came here asking for advice and then said he planned to ignore all the advice, which came not just from myself.

On another matter arising from the discussion that lead to this, ie manufacturers instructions, I presume most think they are sacrosanct and infallible?
As someone who has had to write quite a few instruction manuals for electronic products and had involvement in overseeing the technical side of even more I can assure people that this is sometimes not so!
They are often written by the marketing department and then have factual/technical errors checked for by engineers. Sometimes errors are not spotted... but more relevant to the discussion is that, if we use the example of the Exposure manual, it's quite likely that it was trendy then to leave stuff on all the time, Naim had maybe already recommended it, and a marketing type would probably come along and say to the engineers "is it ok technically to recommend that the gear is left on 24/7 'cos we think it could help sales?". The engineer would probably reply that it is not really a good idea but that if you must recommend such a thing then it is far better to leave the pre amp on than the power amp as it runs cooler and at lower voltages... purely speculation of course but as I said this sort of thing goes on all the time...

Many a time I've had a marketing type come up to me and ask if they can claim such and such a thing in the specifications and I've pointed out that it would be tenuous and if used in such a manner would probably blow up after 20 minutes.. only to be told that it's very unlikely anyone will try and use it in such a way and that as it would probably do it for 20 mins we can get away with making the claim!!

and people then say "it says so in the manual so it must be 100% correct"... Not always.

<YAWN>

Sorry, I have neither the energy nor desire to read that. Do you ever know when to STFU and give it a rest? Obviously not :doh:

I stand by everything I wrote in my last reply to you, which you clearly haven't understood. Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

Marco.

[Marco]

Here's a rhetorical question for you to consider, Jez...

Any idea why the other EEs registered here, such as Anthony and Nick (lurcher), amongst others, never get into the trouble you do when expressing their views? Certainly not from me. And they're just as knowledgeable and experienced in the subject as you are, if not more so.

Think about it.

Marco.

[Pieoftheday]

Hi.

I use an Exposure XX integrated amp (built in 1994). Should I leave the amp always powered up (like Naim stuff) or should I turn it off after listening to music?

I don't own the amp user's manual but I think there should be some advice from Exposure...

Does it sound better leaving it o 24/7?

[Yomanze]

Does it sound better leaving it o 24/7?
No, they come on song around 15 mins after switching on, if that.

[57charles]

I've always believed that heat is the enemy of electronics longevity although as a 'non techie', I may well be wrong. What I have noticed with regard to amps is that some run a lot hotter than others and the ones that I've had that run hot sounded a lot 'richer' when hot. I presently own a Yamaha Z9 which gets very hot and it sounds beautiful when hot. It has big toroidal transformer and 2 big caps and was designed by Yamaha AUDIO engineer NOT AV. The replacement Z11 had big frame transformer and apparently does not run hot and I've read reports where people have both and prefer Z9 over Z11 for sound quality. Apparently Z11 was designed by Yamaha AV engineer. I would never leave any equipment on, let alone my Z9.

[Pieoftheday]

No, they come on song around 15 mins after switching on, if that.

I was wondering if the OP had noticed an improvement?:)

[walpurgis]

I was wondering if the OP had noticed an improvement?:)

In what? If he never turns it off, he won't know will he? :D

[Beobloke]

I completely agree with your sentiments, and trust me we're reasonably serious 'greenies' in all aspects of our lives,

Er... remind me what fuel you car runs on, again, and how big its engine is?! ;)

And I really cant be bothered to trawl through all this thread, but has anyone given the correct answer yet, which is, of course "Yes"?

[Pieoftheday]

In what? If he never turns it off, he won't know will he? :D

I suppose. I assumed he hadn't been leaving it on until he'd read the manual?:)

[Macca]

And I really cant be bothered to trawl through all this thread, but has anyone given the correct answer yet, which is, of course "Yes"?

Pretty much everyone except the manual, which says 'No'.

I suspect by this point the o/p has moved on with his life.

[Pieoftheday]

Pretty much everyone except the manual, which says 'No'.

I suspect by this point the o/p has moved on with his life.

I thought the manual said yes:scratch:

[walpurgis]

No!

Well maybe yes. :scratch:

It's gone on for so long I've lost track. :D

[Pieoftheday]

No!

Well maybe yes. :scratch:

It's gone on for so long I've lost track. :D

:lol::cool:

[Joe]

Pretty much everyone except the manual, which says 'No'.


This is why it's never a good idea to read manuals. Trial and error's the way to go.

[Marco]

Er... remind me what fuel you car runs on, again, and how big its engine is?! ;)


Yesh, but I drive it like a vicar :eyebrows:

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Yes, a vicar Who stole it!!!:D
Yesh, but I drive it like a vicar :eyebrows:

Marco.

[The Black Adder]

You have two sides, one out in the field and one in. Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out. When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side thats been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out. Sometimes you get men still in and not out.

When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in. There are two men called umpires who stay all out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out. When both sides have been in and all the men have been out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game!

[Pieoftheday]

You have two sides, one out in the field and one in. Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out. When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side thats been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out. Sometimes you get men still in and not out.

When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in. There are two men called umpires who stay all out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out. When both sides have been in and all the men have been out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game!

You've been watching Lovejoy Josie:)

[ludovico]

Does it sound better leaving it o 24/7?

Yes, it does.

[Pieoftheday]

Yes, it does.

Job done:)

[Yomanze]

Thread. Closed. :D :D

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[Gomers]

Thread. Closed. :D :D

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I do hope so ! Dammit !!!