View Full Version : If Your System Always Sounds 'Nice', Is There Something Wrong With It?
walpurgis
13-11-2016, 10:29
One can assemble a Hi-Fi system that presents music in a consistently pleasant manner. But could be described as having a 'safe' character, is this the way it should be?
I have a liking for equipment that is as transparent and revealing as possible (that I can afford). That is not to say the sound should be forward or harsh. Over the years, I've used items that are well liked by many, but to me sound veiled or thick and dull.
Most speakers for instance, seem to tread a fine line between being either melliflous or brash. There are exceptions of course. The Quad ESL 57 for instance. It is neither soft or sharp, it just delivers music in about the most revealing way possible.
Some are biased against valve amplifiers, or against solid state amps. Wrongly (in general) attributing certain characteristics to the sound of each type. A good amp is just that and should impose little of itself to the sound and hide nothing. I can't say I've got on with older Quad amps for instance. The 33/303 and 34/405 pairings just not delving deep enough for me. Although used separately, the 405 can deliver.
Getting the front end right is an even harder task. It took me years to find CD players and DACs that I liked, after dozens of changes. Playing records and ending up with the right sound is an even bigger task. Like speakers, cartridges have a tendency to be crude and brash or soft and soggy sounding. Deccas have always delivered and I have fond memories of the Technics EPC-305MC and vintage SPU cartridges. Normally I use a ZYX these days, as they give me the sense that I am missing nothing of the music and the lack of colouration is striking.
The music should be revealed, warts and all in my view. If you have an iffy recording it should sound that way and not be smoothed over by the equipment.
I've reached the point where I find much equipment simply being something I'd not want to live with. Too dull, too crude, uninvolving, unrefined, bland and so on. It's tough getting it right.
Excellent post Geoff. Despite having enjoyed "good" hifi for many years my recent acquisition of Tannoy DCs and Naim CDS has opened up the door for me to a new world of hi-res audio.
It strikes me as the world of insanity.
Trying to get that elusive match is possibly a lifetimes work as our musical tastes and possibly rooms change.
Guys like yourself are well down the road and still haven't arrived.
Sometimes I wonder if I should have stuck with my little Rega system but then I put on an album that makes my jaw drop and I know there's no going back.
It's not the worst thing we could be doing and keeps us out of mischief :)
Nothing wrong in my system... well, not much. .... ok its shit, I admit it! ;)
I have a liking for equipment that is as transparent and revealing as possible (that I can afford). That is not to say the sound should be forward or harsh. Over the years, I've used items that are well liked by many, but to me sound veiled or thick and dull.
The music should be revealed, warts and all in my view. If you have an iffy recording it should sound that way and not be smoothed over by the equipment.
Me too. Over the years I have assembled numerous systems and have many times IMO achieved the "magic". What I mean by this is that it sounds coherent, 3 dimensional, detailed and unfatiguing. Even what I call "bad" recordings sound better and even listenable. It also makes me like stuff that I couldn't play when it did not have the "magic"
What happens then is I think...ooh what if I do this or that will it sound even better? BOLLOCKS!!! the "magic" is gone....can I get it back!...oooh yes about 6 months later and cussing and swearing when if I am lucky it will "magically" return.
IMO I currently have the "magic"......will it last?
walpurgis
13-11-2016, 11:21
It's not the worst thing we could be doing and keeps us out of mischief :)
Doesn't keep me out of mischief. :D
Which Tannoys did you get John?
How does one know if a 'revealing' system isn't exaggerating one thing over something else? I don't mean to bait, but so many stereo's I've heard in my time seem to major on the owners preferences, the room being the final arbiter that few of us ever do anything about.
I've given up on 'deeeeetail,' and try to get the best emotional contact with the essence of the music as I can. I now find I don't need expensive fancy gear to be able to do this, which is just as well today ;)
Music, like beauty is in eye/ear of the beholder. Long live our differences
walpurgis
13-11-2016, 11:36
How does one know if a 'revealing' system isn't exaggerating one thing over something else?
Trust you to ask the impossible question Dave. :)
Exaggeration is the last thing needed. The 'open window' is what is wanted. Nothing lost, nothing added. How to interpret and achieve that is the question.
[B][I]
What happens then is I think...ooh what if I do this or that will it sound even better? BOLLOCKS!!! the "magic" is gone....can I get it back!...oooh yes about 6 months later and cussing and swearing when if I am lucky it will "magically" return.
IMO I currently have the "magic"......will it last?
i know that feeling all to well,in fact im doing it now,re setting alignment,which dispite getting it right last time seems to be out again! lol
Amazingly by fluke just covered this a bit here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?47660-User211-Visits-AwkwardByDesign
walpurgis
13-11-2016, 11:59
Amazingly by fluke just covered this a bit here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?47660-User211-Visits-AwkwardByDesign
Yeah. Saw that. Great minds, as they say! :D
I have a liking for equipment that is as transparent and revealing as possible (that I can afford). That is not to say the sound should be forward or harsh. Over the years, I've used items that are well liked by many, but to me sound veiled or thick and dull.
The music should be revealed, warts and all in my view. If you have an iffy recording it should sound that way and not be smoothed over by the equipment.
Me too. Over the years I have assembled numerous systems and have many times IMO achieved the "magic". What I mean by this is that it sounds coherent, 3 dimensional, detailed and unfatiguing. Even what I call "bad" recordings sound better and even listenable. It also makes me like stuff that I couldn't play when it did not have the "magic"
What happens then is I think...ooh what if I do this or that will it sound even better? BOLLOCKS!!! the "magic" is gone....can I get it back!...oooh yes about 6 months later and cussing and swearing when if I am lucky it will "magically" return.
IMO I currently have the "magic"......will it last?
I've always worked from the principle that the 'magic' is there on the recording and the only thing the equipment can do is stifle it to a greater or lesser degree. The alternative view, that the equipment generates the magic, is, I feel, starting from the wrong basic principle.
Of course no bit of equipment is totally transparent so personal taste in terms of colouration is always going to matter to some degree. But I dislike systems that are tailored to sound 'exciting' or, at the opposite end of the spectrum, those that are tailored to sound 'beautiful' since they favour some types of music and recordings over others and begin to dictate your listening choices for you.
This throws up a problem though since the quest for ultimate neutrality can leave you with a system that, whilst it treats any genre of recording equally, sounds bland and ultimately uninvolving. In my view if you can reduce noise and distortion of all types sufficiently in such a system this will bring back the 'magic' without losing the neutrality, since it is the noise and distortion that destroy the 'reality' of the recording, which is the thing that really grabs and holds our attention.
This can be both difficult and expensive, though, which I think is why people tend to avoid the attempt and instead settle for a coloured system that engages the with the music they like. I mean it doesn't really matter that a SET/horn system will make a dog's dinner of Metallica if you never listen to Metallica.
I agree with Martin that the magic is there in the recording and as such as I have evolved my system it is always because whatever I do reveals more of the recording, however the balance is always tricky as I don't just want more detail I want to be able to enjoy the music as well.
My point of reference is always listening to something live. The very best recordings and equipment make you feel you are close to the performer and as such I try to move my system to give me as close an experience of live music as possible even if sometimes this may be uncomfortable. If you stand in front of someone singing and just playing an acoustic guitar you can appreciate the power and dynamics the sound has as it hits you.
Ok sometimes you just want music in the background when you may not be particularly focuses of it but when you are I think you want it to be as real as possible. If you can bring a performer into your room to the point where audibly it gives you goose bumps then for me my system is doing something right.
Equipment should therefore be free from distortion, transparent and capable of good dynamic range in order to achieve this.
I don't get too hung up on neutrality if a piece of equipment can reveal more of the recording. I have certain items that are far from neutral but generate a fabulous degree of detail and realism probably at the expense of being neutral.
It is always therefore a compromise with equipment as no piece of equipment is perfect. Maybe in the end it all about managing the distortions and what distortions you like to hear!:)
walpurgis
13-11-2016, 15:26
I don't get too hung up on neutrality if a piece of equipment can reveal more of the recording. I have certain items that are far from neutral but generate a fabulous degree of detail and realism probably at the expense of being neutral.
I share that view. Some highly articulate and transparent items of equipment can be some way from neutral.
With a set of stacked Quads my system is never dull;):)
southall-1998
13-11-2016, 15:41
I don't care that much for transparency and detail. Anyway, my hearing has some slight roll off/cut in the highs :D
As long the system isn't harsh, has good pace and beat. Then I'm happy!
S.
walpurgis
13-11-2016, 16:20
As long the system isn't harsh, has good pace and beat. Then I'm happy!
S.
Why do you keep changing your gear then Shane? ;) :D
southall-1998
13-11-2016, 16:21
Why do you keep changing your gear then Shane? ;) :D
Because it keeps me busy, Geoff.
S.
walpurgis
13-11-2016, 16:23
Because it keeps me busy, Geoff.
S.
Do some gardening! :D
southall-1998
13-11-2016, 16:39
Do some gardening! :D
Tried it, didn't work! Impulsive buying is better for me :lol:
S.
walpurgis
13-11-2016, 16:46
Tried it, didn't work! Impulsive buying is better for me :lol:
S.
I know the feeling. I used to be just the same.
julesd68
13-11-2016, 17:20
I couldn't agree with you more Geoff, but sometimes you don't know what you are missing out on until it's revealed to you by making changes to your system.
Also your ears get used to hearing music a certain way.
What set me on the path to discovering a more transparent and accurate sound was spending time tube rolling my phono stage. It was a revelation and took me a little while to acclimatise to the new 'honesty' of the system but once I did I realised I could never go back to what I had before. With my 'nice' system all recordings sounded pretty good but with my latest system the best recordings sound hugely better and the weaker ones show their limitations.
walpurgis
13-11-2016, 17:26
with my latest system the best recordings sound hugely better and the weaker ones show their limitations.
This is what I want from a system Julian. No benevolent treatment of inadequate source material. That's just wrong. All the information should come through so it can be judged on its merits (or lack of).
I like your term "honesty". That is the key.
This is what I want from a system Julian. No benevolent treatment of inadequate source material. That's just wrong. All the information should come through so it can be judged on its merits (or lack of).
.
On the other hand the recording gets blamed far too often when it is actually the system that sounds dog rough. Bland but well recorded and produced recordings get a little bit of artificial edge that makes them sound a little more 'live', average recordings sound hard and bad recordings are unlistenable. But because the system enhances the bland it is considered to be 'showing up' poor recordings, so accomplished is it. If I had a quid for every time I heard 'I never realised how many bad recordings are out there until I upgraded to XXX' I could afford to buy Audio Note and Harbeth. New.
southall-1998
13-11-2016, 19:04
Then others like having a ''phoney'' sounding system :lol:
S.
Finally learned, after decades of striving for a genuinely revealing/precise playback setup.. That particular idol does have Clay feet
Revealing is exactly that .
V good recordings are sublime.. truly.
Average ones are tolerable and the bulk (half of my collection actually sounds like Shite)
Poorly recorded /mastered ? whatever the reason it sucks.
I've reverted/taken a step back to mid fi CD playback and Cheapy AT carts. Now 3/4's of my recordings are merely V nice... and many are V good.
Care in what one aspires to ;)
You've got to go there before you can come back ;)
jandl100
15-11-2016, 07:51
How does one know if a 'revealing' system isn't exaggerating one thing over something else? I don't mean to bait, but so many stereo's I've heard in my time seem to major on the owners preferences
:exactly:
... you don't know what you are missing out on until it's revealed to you by making changes to your system.
... or hearing a familiar recording in someone else's system and thinking "wtf :eek:"
:exactly:
jandl100
15-11-2016, 08:02
Of course no bit of equipment is totally transparent so personal taste in terms of colouration is always going to matter to some degree. But I dislike systems that are tailored to sound 'exciting' or, at the opposite end of the spectrum, those that are tailored to sound 'beautiful' since they favour some types of music and recordings over others and begin to dictate your listening choices for you.
Every system I have heard does that to a significant extent.
We all base our system choices on our own musical and subjective preferences.
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