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View Full Version : Which one to choose Garrard 301 or 401???



selfaddict
06-12-2009, 10:05
Hello.

I have done a lot of research over the internet and desided to go "vintage" on my TT, whits is my main source. I really would like to try SME 12" arms and best TT for this I have found is Garrard. But which model should I go :scratch:?

301 has two main option, grease bearings and later oil bearing models. But 401 which is more modern design, is selling much less, do not know why.

Could people on this lovely forum give me some info what to take into account before making my mind please. At the moment I am thinking fully refurbished 401 is more value for money and I actually like the looks of it as well :)

Thanks

hifi_dave
06-12-2009, 11:07
I prefer the 'Russian Tractor' styling and build of the 301 but that's a personal thing. Both are truly excellent TT's but I think the 301, with either bearing, has more drive than the 401.

Will
06-12-2009, 11:57
If you have researched Garrard on the internet you will have read some crap:)
There are folks who run both turntables and the 401 is prefered.
There are folks who think older is better.:scratch:

I have a 401 in a slate plinth a must to get the best from it also damp the underside of the platter for H/Freq sparkle.
If I had the money I would have a 301 just for the looks but would have had to deal with worn parts.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j317/willcowen/100_0431-1.jpg

Marco
06-12-2009, 12:59
My preference for the 301 is purely down to aesthetics, and also (to me) it looks better built, but I am by no means an expert on Garrards.

I've heard Will's 401 (above) twice at Owston and it's never failed to seriously impress! :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
06-12-2009, 13:52
My tuppence worth, as I'm ten years younger than HiFi dave :lol:

I grew up in the sixties and the styling of the 401 appeals to me. I personally find the 301 a bit too archaic.

HOWEVER

Both models were prone to transmitted motor vibration putting a mechanically transmitted "hum" in the background. The grease bearing has its manic fans, but I'm sure I read somewhere that the later bearings could be better if correctly lubricated and that includes the sintered steel bushings derided by Slate Audio for example...

One thing I read in one of HiFi dave's old mags recently was that the motors of the 401 were slightly different to that used in the 301 (citation needed here). A HUGE criticism of the 401 was that the motor speed was entirely dependant on the driving voltage, a drop in supply voltage causing very audible speed change (assuming you're not tone-deaf as most male humans are supposed to be).....

These days, I'd suggest either deck would perform equally given a sensitive fettling and decent plinth treatment, but I would personally suggest an external stabilised supply for either model.

'Course, lenco's have the edge in the above parameter as the motors aren't speed/voltage sensitive and a voltage drop may well IMPROVE the rumble figures.....;)

selfaddict
06-12-2009, 14:24
No need to think anymoore which one it is going to be because I just gought Garrard 401 :cool:

Now I just need to find suitable second hand 12" tonearm and power supply. I would be very greatfull for info regarding above two items from people with experience of Garrard. Others please join in as well, more the merry:lolsign:

DSJR
06-12-2009, 14:42
Obviously, a 12" SME is ideal, as spares are readily available for it new or second hand. The Schick arm looks interesting to me as it's so simple, but one chap told me he didn't like it for some reason...

For the cost of an ancient SME 12", one can buy a 12" Jelco 750 I believe. Now that would be very interesting, as the optional damping should help a heck of a lot.....

selfaddict
06-12-2009, 15:09
Obviously, a 12" SME is ideal, as spares are readily available for it new or second hand. The Schick arm looks interesting to me as it's so simple, but one chap told me he didn't like it for some reason...

For the cost of an ancient SME 12", one can buy a 12" Jelco 750 I believe. Now that would be very interesting, as the optional damping should help a heck of a lot.....

That is really interesting idea actually, thanks for that. I really liked the Jelco 750D, so the 12" wil be something I need to look into.

And I do not need power supply, because original was included on the sale :)

John
06-12-2009, 15:44
I think the 12" Jelco would be well worth going for.
Also remember the plinth can make a huge difference

Marco
06-12-2009, 16:16
I grew up in the sixties and the styling of the 401 appeals to me. I personally find the 301 a bit too archaic.


It's a personal taste thing, Dave :)

Both are well before my time, but I personally find the 301 retro in a 'classic' sense, and the 401 retro in a 'tacky' sense. It looks kind of 'plasticy' in comparison to the 'tank-like' 301, and I love the cream colour, as it breaks things up... I find the 401 rather bland looking in comparison.

There is in fact some plastic used on the 401, isn't there - around the badge, for example? Whereas, as far as I can see, there is none on the 301. That appeals to me, as I hate plastic with a passion. If I'm buying a vintage T/T, things like that matter.

Tony L's 301 on pfm is one of the most gorgeous I've seen! I'm not a fan of the strobe markings on the platter and his doesn't have any. It's nice and smooth!

However, I've no idea which one is actually the better built, if indeed there is a difference in that respect. Is one of them better built than the other, and if so, in what way? In fact, while we're at it, what are the actual differences (other than aesthetically) between the two? I'd like to know for reference.

Regardless of that, there's no doubt Juha's got himself a superb T/T! :cool:

Marco.

selfaddict
06-12-2009, 16:51
However, I've no idea which one is actually the better built, if indeed there is a difference in that respect. Is one of them better built than the other, and if so, in what way? In fact, while we're at it, what are the actual differences (other than aesthetically) between the two? I'd like to know.

Regardless of that, there's no doubt Juha's got himself a superb T/T! :cool:

Marco.

There are really strange and wonderfully stories about the first 301's. For example that the first ones were made of old bombs and all other scrap metal what was available. According to this source the bad quality metal is main reason why grey hammer pain is prone to flake of. Also the reason for this hammer paint was that metal was so bad quality that enamel would not stick to it. I am sure there is some truth about this.

Other thing what I read was that 401 was a upgrade from 301 but it never sold well and Garrard could not understand why. I assume reason being as Marco said earlier 401 is looking too modern and 301 more traditional looking. We are talking about 60's and 70's anyway.

I really am looking forward this project. I really like the modern TT's but for some strange reason they just feel a bit too fiddly and fragile for my taste, so best to try the bomb proof models :eyebrows:.

Alex_UK
06-12-2009, 17:48
Loads of good advice from the knowledgeable people on here on a thread I started - if you haven't already found it. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3799

I haven't got round to doing anything much yet, but it still sounds awesome!

Welcome to the club, by the way!

Primalsea
06-12-2009, 17:59
I have never seriously listened to a 301 but I do have a 401. I've heard all sorts of crap touted about them but IMO there are 3 mains factors in making sure they sound right.
1, All the mechanics and electrics must be clean, tidy lubricated and working smoothly.
2, It must be mounted properly, I have a slate plinth but have found heavy wooden plinths to be good as well.
3, The Idler Wheel must be clean and the rubber good. If yours is a little cracked or tired looking give it a clean with IPA and then stick it is a bag of cooking oil and place it on top of the hot water tank for a day or 2. This will sort it out if its not too far gone.

The 401 is built like a tank and is all metal, the fact that these things can still run like new after all these years is really testament to them.

Much better than those dodgy looking DJ decks that some people rave on about all the time! lol

Themis
06-12-2009, 18:06
*looking desperately at my P3 which has never been cleaned...*
*going to make some popcorns for the "DJ decks" debate*

Marco
06-12-2009, 18:19
Hi Paul,

LOL@ the "dodgy looking DJ deck" thing, btw! :eyebrows:

However...


The 401 is built like a tank and is all metal...


What's that stuff made of around where it says 'Garrard 401' - isn't that plastic? If not, it looks like it. Also, aren't the switches on a 401 plastic (or plastic covered)?

As I've said, I've got no issues whatsoever with how a 401 sounds - it sounds fab, but to these (admittedly untrained eyes) the 301 looks far better built, at least in terms of the top plate used, which would make a difference to me if I was choosing which one to buy.

I guess also what I'm looking for is someone with the relevant knowledge to list a set of bullet points (or similar) which show the definitive differences between the two......

Marco.

selfaddict
06-12-2009, 20:26
Loads of good advice from the knowledgeable people on here on a thread I started - if you haven't already found it. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3799

I haven't got round to doing anything much yet, but it still sounds awesome!

Welcome to the club, by the way!

Thank you for the good thread, very good information in deed.

I do not like personally the look of state. Slate for me is very liveless and a bit dull. I prefer the luster and depth of red granite(myself coming from Finland), so I think my ultimate dream 401 plinth will need to wait untill I move back to home again.

12" Jelco is at the top of my list for the best tonearm for the pound fitted to a granite plinth.

DSJR
06-12-2009, 22:45
Fella's,

Back in the mid seventies, people were throwing out their Lenco's and Garrards because they rumbled and grumbled their way through LP's played on them. The speed wasn't too consistant either and although they may have traded one set of problems for others when they adopted TD125's et al, the signal-noise issue can still be there, even with fancy plinths IMO.

Those "DJ" decks were originally HiFi grade decks with far better performance (except possibly feedback on the early ones) to those tired old idler decks. With modern mats and supports, the feedback issue barely exists, especially as the 1210 series now has rubber filling inside the plinth.

I'd love to locate and use my 401 again, but I have no doubts that my SL150 would eat it for breakfast, as it's cleaner in drive and rumble and the 150 was also better than the "armed" versions for feedback too for some reason..

Sorry all, but rose tinting of memories is a human condition..

Rare Bird
06-12-2009, 23:20
I'll always opt for the '401' but i have to admit that chrome plated control pannel looks really tacky

Marco
06-12-2009, 23:27
Hi Dave,


I'd love to locate and use my 401 again, but I have no doubts that my SL150 would eat it for breakfast, as it's cleaner in drive and rumble and the 150 was also better than the "armed" versions for feedback too for some reason..


Sorry, mate, gonna have to totally disagree. I'm quite certain that, for example, Will's 401 with his D.I.Y Shroeder 12" arm would eat your SL150 for breakfast!! ;)

Trust me, it sounds utterly superb, and in many ways is better than my 'race-tuned' Techie! Honestly, it's a gorgeous sounding T/T without a hint of rumble.

In fact, I've yet to hear a well set-up 301 or 401 in a decent plinth which suffers from rumble...

Sorry, you're WAY wrong on this one, dude! :)

Marco.

Marco
06-12-2009, 23:28
Hi Andre,


I'll always opt for the '401'...


Out of interest, why? I'm trying to learn more about Garrards here! :cool:

Marco.

Will
07-12-2009, 00:33
Thanks for the kind words Marco:clap:

I had to Google SL150 em..er..:goodluck:

.

Marco
07-12-2009, 00:43
Thanks for the kind words Marco:clap:


You're welcome... It's the truth, mate, based on what I've heard :)

Dave's SL150 wouldn't have a prayer - sorry, Dave!

Marco.

Rare Bird
07-12-2009, 00:55
Hi Andre,



Out of interest, why? I'm trying to learn more about Garrards here! :cool:

Marco.

At the end of the day the 401 & 301 are of the same thing, early '301' had grease bearings tho, technical differences are fractional..My attraction to the '401' is purely asthetic driven, i like that chunky strope platter on the '401' aswell..

Alex_UK
07-12-2009, 06:47
The name plate is some sort of tin/metal, and as far as I can tell the switches are cast metal? Years ago I obviously thought the switch plate looked strange chrome too, 'cos I sprayed mine black!

Beobloke
07-12-2009, 12:08
I guess also what I'm looking for is someone with the relevant knowledge to list a set of bullet points (or similar) which show the definitive differences between the two......

Marco.

OK, I'll have a bash!

(1) Garrard 301 was manufactured between 1954 and 1964 and build was split into roughly three groups - grey finish/grease bearing, ivory finish/grease bearing and ivory finish/oil bearing.

(2) The standard platter was smooth at the edges and the stroboscopic type was an extra cost option.

(3) The Garrard 401 was introduced in 1964 and featured improved styling, courtesy of Eric Marshall (who also did the Lab 80). The motor featured improved magnetic shielding so that it caused less hum in sensitive cartridges and the range of speed adjustment was changed from +/-2.5% to +/-3%. The stroboscopically engraved platter was also standard on the 401.

(4) Early 401s were sturdily built and had their strobe light mounted neatly under the chassis, shining on the strobe through a system of prisms/mirrors.

(5) Later 401s had the lamp placed on tiop of the chassis and the nice engraved name plate was chanegd for some plastic stick-on letters.

Basically, There were good and bad of both types, but there are likely to be more bad 401s around as they were made at a time when Garrard were slowly sinking into financial trouble and cost-cutting was creeping in. Component quality suffered and the later decks can require more work to get performing decently.

From my own experience, I have owned 4 301s (I was given the 4th yesterday!!) and all have required very little work to get spinning sweetly and quietly, even though one was in particularly bad physical state. My first 401 was a rumble-prone monster which I passed on pretty sharpish and the second isn't looking promising either, although obviously there are far more options for quietening the thing down than there were 15 years ago when I owned the last one, so this one will be saved.

In summary, I prefer the 301 from a build and technical point of view, although the 401 was definitely a bit sleeker. Good results can be had from any of them but experience suggests that, the newer they are, the more time this will take. Well worth doing, though, as a good one will wipe the floor with most modern ultra-decks, and most of the vintage ones, too!:eyebrows:

Alex_UK
07-12-2009, 12:21
Great post - thanks for that Beobloke.


(5) Later 401s ...the nice engraved name plate was chanegd for some plastic stick-on letters.

Ah, so mine must be an earlier one - cool!

Rare Bird
07-12-2009, 12:41
The name plate is some sort of tin/metal, and as far as I can tell the switches are cast metal? Years ago I obviously thought the switch plate looked strange chrome too, 'cos I sprayed mine black!

Those control pannels were plastic chrome plated yes & the knobs aluminium..I had a later one with raised strobe light also plastic chrome mounting surround to it.Their was a guy in Oz if i remember selling copies of pannels & knobs which were very good.

selfaddict
07-12-2009, 18:54
Thanks Beobloke from a great post.

My resent purchase is early model as well with hidden strobo light and non plastic name plate.

I was so convinced about the Jelco SA-750L paired with 401, that I went and bought one yesterday, in black :eek: .

Now I just need to get the tonearm cable. Jelco's will take any 5 pin SME type cable. Would anyone had recommendation which way to look :stalks:? It needs to be RCA at the moment but in the future I am planning to go fully balanced and thennaturally I need another cable.

Primalsea
07-12-2009, 20:04
That makes sense now as my 401 has metal knobs and the logo is cast into the chassis.

As touched on the weak point of the 401 is that the mechanics have to be clean, throughly clean. If you do it yourself its a strip down, through de grease and then assembling it all on a clean white sheet of paper on a well hovered work surface and a re greasing.