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CageyH
16-10-2016, 08:24
As promised on the Firebottle Vivant thread, here are a few pictures from the day.

After a 360 Km drive, starting off in the fog I arrived at Rochechevreux and could see Alan's house in the distance,
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5630/30259780521_48dab5f4bf_z_d.jpg

The usual warm welcome was received from Mr and Mrs Firebottle.
After an extensive tour of the house, we adjourned to the listening room.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8665/30259777071_52c4060717_z_d.jpg

Alan can be seen getting everything set up, starting off with my SL1200 shod with a HANA SL, Kin pre amp and Alan's AIR power amp, all hooked up to the suspended ESL57s.
We listened to a few tracks that I was familiar with. Immediate impressions were good, with a nice open sound stage. It sounded very good to me and I would have been happy to listen to the system as it for the rest of the day. However, that was not the point of the visit.

The first bits of kit we listened to:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8409/30345706905_ce1117ed3f_z_d.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5458/29715620604_183a5bb01e_z_d.jpg

We then plugged the Vivant phono stage in, and played the same tracks. I was pleasantly surprised in that there was such a noticeable difference. Everything was clearer, better defined, and seemed to occupy it's own discreet space.
I was impressed.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8560/30310523946_8c0d1cf5b4_z_d.jpg

Alan then substituted in his modified KIN and we played several tracks through the built in phono stage. It didn't sound quite as good as the Vivant, but it was very good. The Vivant just had a little something extra.
To take things further, Alan swapped the AIR out, and installed the mono blocks.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5458/30229476532_ab4cc29990_z_d.jpg

Again, there was a noticeable difference. The SL1200 through the KIN, into the mono blocks powering the ESL57s was sounding absolutely superb. I could have sat there all day listening to it, but it was lunch time.
After a very nice lunch followed a visit to "L'atelier de Firebottle" where Alan works his magic. We spent a little bit of time modifying my KIN to increase the performance to the level of Alan's KIN. I didn't really understand the technical detail of what he did, but it seems that a bit of fairy dust was sprinkled over my phono stage in the KIN, as when we plugged it back in the system, it sounded superb.

I then changed my cartridge to an AT33PTG/II so that we could play with various head amps that Alan had. Some were loaded at 100 Ohms, and the Hana was not best suited as it is recommended to load it at 400 Ohms.
Before comparing the head amps, we played a few tracks to get used to the sound of the AT33PTG/II. We then tried the solid state head amps. If I am honest, I could not tell the difference between the KIN MC stage and the head amp feeding the MM input of the KIN. Alan informed me that the components were very similar, so no real difference should be really noticeable.

Next up was the Valve head amp.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8130/30229475662_179902b239_z_d.jpg
This did sound a little different, being slightly warmer (If I remember correctly). It features some ingenious engineering with a suspension system for the valves.

Time again for serious listening, so the Vivant went back in to the system after a quick swap of the loading plugs.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8137/30259770811_27e018b240_b_d.jpg

For me, this was the best sound of the day. The AT33 to Vivant/KIN feeding the mono blocks and Quads.
Absolutely superb.

We played (quite) a few more tracks on the combination, but it was soon time for me to think about heading back to Toulouse.
Before I left, Alan plugged his RTR in, which for what it has cost him is an absolute bargain. The tape he had in it was recorded from a CD, but all of the digital edginess had completely gone.
In short, a thoroughly good day out. One of the best systems I have ever heard, which just produced the music with such ease and depth. MIBO should be interesting event, and I look forward to hearing some feedback.

I now understand why Quad ESLs are so favoured. I would quite like a pair, especially if they could be fed by Alan's mono block amps.

Jimbo
16-10-2016, 08:42
Nice to see you two Francophiles have a good Audiophile session. The Vivant is coming across in your review as particularly good Kevin? Looking forward to hearing the whole lot at WiBO!

Nice write up.

CageyH
16-10-2016, 08:48
I quite like the Vivant, but there is not enough difference between my newly modified KIN and the Vivant to justify me buying one.
Although I would like to, there is one major sticking point - Mrs H.

If I could, I would have a system the same as the last one we listened to yesterday.
I could have sat there all night listening to that.

Firebottle
16-10-2016, 09:02
Firstly I'd really like to thank Kevin for driving all that way to provide a top notch source to play through the system.

To say I was impressed is a total understatement. For those that have heard Marco's system, this was better (IMO).

I have never heard music through 'statics so good, it lacked nothing. Depth, air, slam, micro-dynamics to die for, imaging, volume!
Yes volume, the sound was so clean we could turn it up without any strain.

I know where my system upgrade needs to be now. I joked about pinching Kevin's AT33, looks like I'll have to get one.

Marco
16-10-2016, 09:02
Now *THAT* is how you post a write-up of a bake-off/meet!! :exactly:

Nicely illustrated and written, Kevin. I'll go through it and enjoy it properly later. Glad you guys had a good time :)

Marco.

Audio Al
16-10-2016, 09:16
For those that have heard Marco's system, this was better (IMO).
:sofa:

jandl100
16-10-2016, 09:28
For those that have heard Marco's system, this was better (IMO).
:sofa:

:lolsign:

Balls-to-the-wall BigMutha Tannoys vs Quad 57 stats.

Hmm. :hmm: -- it's gonna be different for sure.

I guess it all depends what you want.

CageyH
16-10-2016, 09:31
Some of the tracks used from vinyl I took with me- in no particular order:

Dire straits - Private Investigations
Massive Attack - Unfinished Sympathy
Tracey Chapman - Crossroads, Bridges, Freedom Now
Kate Bush - Running up that hill
Ben Howard - Old Pine, Diamonds
Yello - The Expert, You better hide, Out of dawn, Bostich (reflected), Of course I'm lying, 3rd of June
Sade - Soldier of love
Muse - Madness

Jimbo
16-10-2016, 09:35
:lolsign:

Balls-to-the-wall BigMutha Tannoys vs Quad 57 stats.

Hmm. :hmm: -- it's gonna be different for sure.

I guess it all depends what you want.

Yeah big bloated ballsy Tannoys vs Etheral transparent Quads! Quite different but I am sure they both create their own magic. I know which I would prefer!

Marco
16-10-2016, 09:39
To say I was impressed is a total understatement. For those that have heard Marco's system, this was better (IMO).


Lol! How does that old saying go again...? Ah yes... 'Self-praise is no honour'! :ner:;)

Joking aside, there are so many massive differences/variables between the contents of the two systems (highlighted no more so than with the speakers alone), that any real comparison is just daft. It's all horses for courses, matey. Jerry's spot on (as usual).

The most important thing is that you enjoyed what you heard, with Kevin's kit through your system, had a good time and learned something new. I must make an effort to visit you next year, as it would be an excuse for another holiday in France! :cool:

Marco.

Marco
16-10-2016, 09:41
Yeah big bloated ballsy Tannoys vs Etheral transparent Quads! Quite different but I am sure they both create their own magic. I know which I would prefer!

Bloated? Defo not! The rest, yes. Form a proper opinion when you visit - and in that respect, we really need to nail down a date. We'll discuss that at MiBO :cool:

Marco.

CageyH
16-10-2016, 09:48
It was actually nice to meet Alan, play records for a day on a superb sounding system, and come home without having spent any money.
The first meet at Gordon's Gaff was very expensive for me. I don't regret it as I have a better sounding system now.
This time I have a feeling that Alan is the one who will be spending the money. It will start off with the cartridge.... ;)

I was impressed by the mono blocks and quad combination. However, I won't have exposed valves in my house due to a very inquisitive 16 month old daughter. Alan mentioned plans to build them into different boxes with enclosed valves.
Yes, I won't see the magic glow of the valve but that is a minor price to pay. They are a very tempting proposition.

I really would not say that the system was "loud" when we were listening to it as it did not show signs of being pushed in any way, but the volume was wound up quite a long way round!

Jimbo
16-10-2016, 09:56
Bloated? Defo not! The rest, yes. Form a proper opinion when you visit - and in that respect, we really need to nail down a date. We'll discuss that at MiBO :cool:

Marco.

I was only teasing :), I'm sure they are not bloated but expect they do have a big ballsy sound. Yep it would be great to sort a date with you at Chateaux Marco and bring along the VPI + Decca and maybe the 2M Black? Could be an interesting session?

See you at WiBO :cool:

Marco
16-10-2016, 10:09
Yup, defo, on all counts. The low-end presentation alone, and sense of scale, between Quad statics and big 15" Tannoys is akin to comparing a Beaujolais Nouveau with an Amarone! :eyebrows:

Which you prefer is simply down to personal taste, and with different types of music.

I still remember Alan, at my place, turning round and telling me that on a familiar recording we both own (I forget which one), he hadn't noticed a particular bass line/instrument before, which was completely absent on his system.... ;)

True, Alan? :)

Marco.

struth
16-10-2016, 10:14
I would have thought them incomparable as they are so far apart in their presentation. I like the fact you can can get different shades from differing speaker types. Everyone is different afterall.

Jimbo
16-10-2016, 10:21
Yup, defo, on all counts. The low-end presentation alone, and sense of scale, between Quad statics and big 15" Tannoys is akin to comparing a Beaujolais Nouveau with an Amarone! :eyebrows:

Which you prefer is simply down to personal taste, and with different types of music.

I still remember Alan, at my place, turning round and telling me that on a familiar recording we both own (I forget which one), he hadn't noticed a particular bass line/instrument before, which was completely absent on his system.... ;)

True, Alan? :)

Marco.

Like the wine analogy.:thumbsup: I think Alan beefed up his lower registers with a sub if I am not mistaken?

I always think scale / bass is necessary to produce a more realistic representation of live music and micro detail isn't everything. If you listen to live music the acoustic of the environment and the mixing and amplification can do all sorts of sonic nasties to the music. Often much micro detail is lost in the general wall of sound but it is the scale that is always present which gives you that full fleshed out sound of the instruments.

My system doesn't have scale:( but in a 14 foot by 14 foot room it is difficult to push this aspect without loosing control, hence the SP2,s do there thing but in a much smaller envelope. However what they do do is very good indeed.

Jimbo
16-10-2016, 10:25
Firstly I'd really like to thank Kevin for driving all that way to provide a top notch source to play through the system.

To say I was impressed is a total understatement. For those that have heard Marco's system, this was better (IMO).

I have never heard music through 'statics so good, it lacked nothing. Depth, air, slam, micro-dynamics to die for, imaging, volume!
Yes volume, the sound was so clean we could turn it up without any strain.

I know where my system upgrade needs to be now. I joked about pinching Kevin's AT33, looks like I'll have to get one.

I think the AT33 sounds like it would suit my tastes as well Alan?

CageyH
16-10-2016, 10:28
Just make sure it's the PTG/II. I would like to compare it to the SA.

CageyH
16-10-2016, 10:33
Yup, defo, on all counts. The low-end presentation alone, and sense of scale, between Quad statics and big 15" Tannoys is akin to comparing a Beaujolais Nouveau with an Amarone! :eyebrows:

Which you prefer is simply down to personal taste, and with different types of music.

I still remember Alan, at my place, turning round and telling me that on a familiar recording we both own (I forget which one), he hadn't noticed a particular bass line/instrument before, which was completely absent on his system.... ;)

True, Alan? :)

Marco.

To be fair to Alan, the only MC he has used before is an entry level Ortofon (a salsa or Samba).
The AT33PTG/II is not the best cartridge out there, but yesterday in that system I did not see the need for anything more.
It gets to the point where you have to spend stupid amounts of money to get any minor gains.

If I were Alan, I would be very proud/chuffed with what I have achieved with the Firebottle range.
Hopefully, if there are no power issues at MIBO, then you guys will get to hear it. Just make sure that someone takes a decent vinyl front end.

Firebottle
16-10-2016, 10:57
Actually Marco, whilst agreeing that self praise is no honour :rolleyes:, the similarity of the two systems was quite staggering.

I am using a very well integrated sub along with the '57s. The similarities were, in no order:

Scale. The Lockies major on it, but there was no lack here.
Frequency range. Both fantastic.
Clarity. What can I say, superb on both counts.
Slam or impact. Lockies brilliant, Quads surprisingly brilliant.

Reality. Perhaps an odd choice of word but when the male vocalist came in on a couple of track from the Yello albums it was almost frightening.
I turned to Kevin and asked 'who invited him in?'.

Perhaps the biggest plus for both systems is the synergy between components allowing for such wonderful sound.

:thumbsup:

Firebottle
16-10-2016, 11:02
Balls-to-the-wall BigMutha Tannoys vs Quad 57 stats.

Hmm. :hmm: -- it's gonna be different for sure.


Perhaps the synergy as I have said Jerry, but I think you would have been surprised just how much the statics rocked.

For me the speed and lack of colouration is the icing on the cake.

Both of us heard things we hadn't heard before in various tracks.

Firebottle
16-10-2016, 11:04
I think the AT33 sounds like it would suit my tastes as well Alan?

I rather think so James, detail and smoothness in spades.

mikeyb
16-10-2016, 11:05
An excellent write up, well done on making the trip to hear the Vivant and the rest of Alan's system.

Photos really help too, give you an idea of the size of the Vivant and a look at the rest of the gear used. Seems quite a lot of foo on the turntable stand, did you try it without the lamp [emoji12] [emoji1]

I think a lot of people will be looking forward to MiBO and wherever else the Vivant will be heard.

I can't wait to hear it myself [emoji6]

Marco
16-10-2016, 12:12
I always think scale / bass is necessary to produce a more realistic representation of live music and micro detail isn't everything. If you listen to live music the acoustic of the environment and the mixing and amplification can do all sorts of sonic nasties to the music. Often much micro detail is lost in the general wall of sound but it is the scale that is always present which gives you that full fleshed out sound of the instruments.


Spot on :)

Having become accustomed to it now for years, and with listening to a lot of live music at different venues, where scale is a fundamental part of the musical whole, enabling one to 'feel' the music as well as hear it, I simply couldn't do without that effect - and I'd always trade the qualities of a more 'ethereal' view/presentation of the music, in order to obtain the visceral impact/'heft' I desire and consider as fundamentally important for realistic music reproduction.

I also need my system to be able to play loudly and cleanly, when the need arises, without things falling apart... I can't stand systems/speakers that suffer from poor/insufficient headroom, and which quickly run out of steam!

Marco.

Marco
16-10-2016, 12:13
Actually Marco, whilst agreeing that self praise is no honour :rolleyes:, the similarity of the two systems was quite staggering.

I am using a very well integrated sub along with the '57s. The similarities were, in no order:

Scale. The Lockies major on it, but there was no lack here.
Frequency range. Both fantastic.
Clarity. What can I say, superb on both counts.
Slam or impact. Lockies brilliant, Quads surprisingly brilliant.

Reality. Perhaps an odd choice of word but when the male vocalist came in on a couple of track from the Yello albums it was almost frightening.
I turned to Kevin and asked 'who invited him in?'.

Perhaps the biggest plus for both systems is the synergy between components allowing for such wonderful sound.

:thumbsup:

Yup, matey, I'd go with all that :cool:

Marco.

User211
16-10-2016, 12:59
I reckon having the Quads up there must provide an immense sense of scale. Certainly be interesting to hear, I reckon.

Sovereign
16-10-2016, 13:58
Great write up, and good to hear about a range of products.

CageyH
16-10-2016, 14:11
I reckon having the Quads up there must provide an immense sense of scale. Certainly be interesting to hear, I reckon.

Ha in the Quads suspended in the room is a stroke of genius in my opinion. They have plenty of free space around them and there is no furniture between them and you to add any colouration.

They sounded superb, and lacking scale is not something I would have said the system suffered from.

The Black Adder
16-10-2016, 18:52
Super write up, Kevin... Really enjoyed reading it and very interesting.

:)

Wakefield Turntables
16-10-2016, 19:23
I own a fully modded and fettled pair of 57's and a very well sorted pair of Tannoy 15" MG's with all the gubbins. They are like chalk and cheese and do things so differently. :trust:

CageyH
16-10-2016, 21:14
It's going to be a question about if you prefer chalk or cheese.
The chalk I heard yesterday was superb. I'll have to wait to hear the cheese.

Marco
16-10-2016, 21:24
I own a fully modded and fettled pair of 57's and a very well sorted pair of Tannoy 15" MG's with all the gubbins. They are like chalk and cheese and do things so differently. :trust:

Indeed, which is why I said what I did earlier. You'd struggle to find a better example of two polar opposites from the speaker world... :eyebrows:

Although one thing that they do have in common is that both are 'proper' speakers, presenting their individual but valid 'takes' on the music they're presented with, unlike so many speakers produced today, which in comparison just sound false!

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables
17-10-2016, 07:49
Quads and Tannoys have three things in common

1. They are both speakers
2. They both emit noise
3. They need speaker cables to make them work.

:eek:

Firebottle
17-10-2016, 07:54
Nail and head come to mind Andy :eyebrows:

You forgot one thing, they are both exceedingly good. Is it a coincidence that they are both old designs?

Gordon Steadman
17-10-2016, 18:25
Hmm.... whilst I heartily agree that 57's are the....er one of the best speakers ever made..... this is about Alan's music room and equipment.

We have just returned from said establishment having found the correct route back rather than one of Steadman's famous shortcuts as taken on the way there.

After our late lunch, Alan checked out a few bits for me and then we retired to the music room. I have one of Alan's earlier phono stages and very good it is too. We played through that to start with using my usual test record. 'fraid it's Take 5 but knowing every note really helps check out what I am hearing. Even with my naff ears, it was obvious that the new Vivant offers something special. I refuse to accept the expression 'night and day' as it just isn't true when discussing well designed hi-fi. However, it's the subtleties that raise the great from the good. I don't do hi-fi speak but there is no doubt that I could sit and listen to this system all day without any problem at all.

The big problem with listening to someone else's system is that it's bound to be different. The fact that Alan and I use the same speakers made the differences all the more obvious. His system is incredibly open, dynamic and precise. I missed the what I guess must be a slightly more mid forward presentation of my system. Some of the breathiness around the clarinet was a fraction recessed and the piano seemed drier. But then every other component is different so these small differences are hardly surprising. But small differences they were. His sub does fill in a little but fortunately, he has it set so it doesn't interfere with the 57's clarity in the bass. I used to have a sub but find, in the present room, it was just not necessary. I listen to mostly jazz and baroque music anyway and I haven't noticed the lack. What bass there is, is very clean and quite well extended.

So, many thanks to Alan and Shirley for their usual hospitality. We will miss them both - both as friends and Alan as a magic soldering iron waiver!

Firebottle
17-10-2016, 18:41
Good to see you today Gordon. Here is Gordon's earlier phono stage in the system:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1050763.jpg

:)

CageyH
17-10-2016, 18:48
On a more important note, it's good to see our French contingent getting together to enhance and help build the AoS community :cool:


I'm hoping to pop further south soon to hear a set of Quad ESL63s. ;)

Marco
17-10-2016, 18:52
Excellent, mate - enjoy and don't forget to produce the same quality of write-up (with pics) as you have here! ;)

Marco.

CageyH
17-10-2016, 18:55
Excellent, mate - enjoy and don't forget to produce the same quality of write-up (with pics) as you did here! ;)

Marco.

I'll try to do it better. There are too many grammatical/spelling errors in this one. :doh:

But the big question is 57s or 63s???

Marco
17-10-2016, 19:01
I'll try to do it better. There are too many grammatical/spelling errors in this one. :doh:

But the big question is 57s or 63s???

No-one cares about that, mate! 57s or 63s? For me, 57s, but I haven't heard many 63s....

Marco.

Gordon Steadman
17-10-2016, 19:04
I'm hoping to pop further south soon to hear a set of Quad ESL63s. ;)

Aha, they be pink ones then:eyebrows:

CageyH
17-10-2016, 19:05
Yep.
It will be interesting to see how a pimped PT compares to my pimped DJ deck as well.

Marco
18-10-2016, 07:42
Above all, expect to hear the fundamental differences between belt and direct-drive T/Ts ;)

In order to minimise variables, try and ensure that at least the same cartridge is used for the comparison.

Marco.

CageyH
18-10-2016, 07:55
I don't think we will be swapping cartridges, as it is just a bit of fun.
I want to see how close my deck with very similar Funk upgrades gets to the modified PT with a better cartridge.

As for the differences between belt and direct drive are concerned, if Arthur has his drive upgrade sorted then it should be minimal.

Marco
18-10-2016, 08:20
I don't think we will be swapping cartridges, as it is just a bit of fun.
I want to see how close my deck with very similar Funk upgrades gets to the modified PT with a better cartridge.


No worries... There will be notable differences, for sure, which I think I could predict.


As for the differences between belt and direct drive are concerned, if Arthur has his drive upgrade sorted then it should be minimal.

Whilst that will help, it won't equalise the fundamental way in which both drive technologies present musical information. Also, the respective 'plinth solutions' of both T/Ts will also play a big part in proceedings.

Marco.

Oldpinkman
18-10-2016, 15:50
No worries... There will be notable differences, for sure, which I think I could predict.



Whilst that will help, it won't equalise the fundamental way in which both drive technologies present musical information. Also, the respective 'plinth solutions' of both T/Ts will also play a big part in proceedings.

Marco.

:)

Marco
18-10-2016, 15:52
Wot - we agree on something? Amazing! :eek::D

Marco.

Marco
19-10-2016, 22:15
Guys, as I indicated I might do earlier, I've tidied up the thread and moved all the 'wide baffle' speaker discussion to a separate thread of its own in Blank Canvas, so let's keep this one about Kevin's visit to Alan's place :)

Marco.

Oldpinkman
20-10-2016, 12:36
Wot - we agree on something? Amazing! :eek::D

Marco.

I'm sure we agree on something. I was however indicating I was looking forward to seeing Kevin again. I think Kevin is probably right. The differences between the drive systems will probably be small (vanishingly so) and other features of the design are likely to be responsible for any differences in sound. Anyway - Kevin will get to see some 63's in the flesh, and hear them in a suitable room. And my wife will get to play with Kevin's daughter - which she views as significantly more important

Marco
20-10-2016, 12:41
I'm sure we agree on something. I was however indicating I was looking forward to seeing Kevin again.

That's cool and I hope you guys have a great time. However, you quoted me in post #46, and put a smiley underneath, which I took to mean that you were agreeing with what you'd quoted of my text, hence my reply :)

Marco.