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Covenant
21-09-2016, 07:36
I am intrigued by supertweeters. Most people say they don't hear much out of them but they make a difference. Why don't manufacturers of speakers stick them in their boxes? How do you connect them?
Let's have some views from AOS members who have tried them.

walpurgis
21-09-2016, 09:00
If the output from a supertweeter is audibly noticeable, then it's not being used correctly.

They have been 'stuck in boxes' as it were. IMF, Spendor, Rogers and B&W used them to augment the top end of speakers that featured the Celestion HF1300 tweeter.

I've tried supertweeters in various configurations. They do work, but should operate at a level where what they do is only noticed by its absence. In other words, if you have them running, then disconnect them and the music seems to 'shrink' a bit, then you are getting the desired effect when they are connected.

I've tried Coles 4001 series units, KEF T27, Celestion HF2000, Decca DK30 ribbons, Isophon horns and even the Goodmans DT3 amongst others. The HF2000 and DK30 being far better than the others, probably because of their smooth response.

Supertweeters are easy to try out. Just wire them up with a series capacitor. Start with a very small value, for an 8 ohm unit maybe 0.1 uF and work upwards in values until the effect on the sound is noticed. Fancier filters can be used giving steeper slopes, but a single cap is OK for experimentation. You can play with the phase too, by reversing polarity. This can improve things, or not.

YNWaN
21-09-2016, 09:34
Literally every 'super-tweeter' I have encountered (including my own) have produced significant output well into the audible spectrum - in other words, well below 20 KHz.

Gotta go right now but will write a bit more on the subject later.

tapid
21-09-2016, 11:42
Many rave reviews about the Townshend super tweeters, even improving bass performance apparently ?, never had an audition. Can vouch for
some of his other stuff though, interesting subject.

Spectral Morn
21-09-2016, 11:55
Its like the effect of ATRAC on Mini Disc, frequencies and info felt by the process that are not heard are discarded in the recording, but this process is audible and presents a drop in quality. In reverse sound we are not supposed to be able to hear still has an impact on us and this where super tweeters come in..... at least that is what the theory says.

Not had an opportunity to try an add on super tweeter, but my Anthony Gallo Reference 3s tweeter is a super tweeter.

anthonyTD
21-09-2016, 12:35
Hi All,
I have been using a pair of the townshend Super tweeters for a while now, and yes, not only do they affect the high frequency perception,and imaging, but the bass is also improved, I have pondered about why this might be, and there are sevral theories.
Even my Dad who is now 78 comented one day when he came in the room for listen, I played a track on the system without them, and then again with them in, and he could imediately hear the diffrence, so much so, that he decided to purchase a pair for himself!
As we get older in genral, our high frequency perception drops off, so if you think about a super tweeter as just a high frequency extension, then certainly in my Dads case anyway, they shouldnt realy make any diffrence, but they clearly do.
Now I am not saying they are the be all, and end all, and some may try them, and find their presence to intruding, or be less than impressed by what they experience, However [IMHO] they do seem to have an affect on most' if not all the Audio frequency bandwidth, which until you hear it, its hard to imagine this to be the case.
A...

Ammonite Audio
21-09-2016, 12:44
If you resolve bass information from real instruments, there are HF harmonic components stretching out to the auditory horizon and beyond. Those harmonics are essential to the 'feel' and 'shape' of the instrument's sound across all frequencies, but this is why supertweeters can have an apparent effect on bass reproduction, even though simplistic 20Hz-20kHz frequency domain thinking tells us that this cannot happen.

struth
21-09-2016, 12:52
When i tried them, i perceived an effect on bass too, although i was informed by the informed that this cannot happen.. still, it did in my view.. Overall i preferred the system without them. Still have a couple of sets lying in shed unused... ribbon and horn i think. One boxed set i used were sold to someone on here...

PaulStewart
21-09-2016, 13:11
If you resolve bass information from real instruments, there are HF harmonic components stretching out to the auditory horizon and beyond. Those harmonics are essential to the 'feel' and 'shape' of the instrument's sound across all frequencies, but this is why supertweeters can have an apparent effect on bass reproduction, even though simplistic 20Hz-20kHz frequency domain thinking tells us that this cannot happen.

I've mentioned this before on AoS, going back to research I did when I was at JVC in the late 70s. You also have to take into account the intermodulation of the ultrasonic with the audible frequencies. This intermodulation product is both audible and measurable, albeit at very low level. It all helps to give us better perception of the soundstage. Inter modulation of sub bass and audible frequencies is part of the equation too.

daytona600
21-09-2016, 13:55
subs improve HF & supertweeters improve LF
most normal STs are not really getting high into ultrasonics 30/40khz usually , great STs get way up to 150khz

walpurgis
21-09-2016, 14:27
subs improve HF & supertweeters improve LF
most normal STs are not really getting high into ultrasonics 30/40khz usually , great STs get way up to 150khz

How much media carries signals up to 150kHz though and are there any musical instruments that reach that high?

Ammonite Audio
21-09-2016, 14:28
I've mentioned this before on AoS, going back to research I did when I was at JVC in the late 70s. You also have to take into account the intermodulation of the ultrasonic with the audible frequencies. This intermodulation product is both audible and measurable, albeit at very low level. It all helps to give us better perception of the soundstage. Inter modulation of sub bass and audible frequencies is part of the equation too.

Yes, this too!

bumpy
21-09-2016, 15:10
I ran a pair of Fostex T90a with Lowther horns for a while. As has been said, it adds some air to the presentation and also seems to reinforce the bass? I would not use any resistors in the crossover, but a simple capacitor will suffice and can be changed to push up the crossover frequency.

One thing I did check before progressing was the upper frequency limit of my amplifier. No point in putting in a super tweeter if the amp is not giving out any frequencies above 20 KHz. Perhaps it is my age, but in the end I was happy to live without it.

danilo
21-09-2016, 16:13
Psychoacoustics, third order harmonics and the 14k Hearing limits of the typical 50+ yr old Human male...All have dominion.
That said; Supertweets can be inexpensive and fun to fool with.... unless you have cats/dogs :eyebrows:

daytona600
21-09-2016, 17:07
How much media carries signals up to 150kHz though and are there any musical instruments that reach that high?

mainly harmonics cymbals & muted horns can contain 80-100khz
Analogue tape no problem , digital mainly crap above 20khz or brick walled

MFSL The GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ half-speed mastering system is comprised of a Studer™ tape machine with customized reproduction electronics* and handcrafted cutting amps that drive an Ortofon cutting head on a restored Neumann VMS-70 lathe. (*It is worth noting that independent studies have confirmed that the GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ system can unveil sonic information all the way up to 122kHz!)

PaulStewart
21-09-2016, 20:58
mainly harmonics cymbals & muted horns can contain 80-100khz

Harmonics on a 12 string acoustic guitar can go above 100 kHz as can a harpsichord, but this is harmonics

daytona600
21-09-2016, 22:04
most X-factor punters can go above 100khz !

Covenant
22-09-2016, 07:26
Are ribbon tweeters generally better at providing an extended HF response? If you have ribbon tweeter installed is there not much benefit from installing a super tweeter?

Stratmangler
22-09-2016, 08:09
Are ribbon tweeters generally better at providing an extended HF response?

Not necessarily

walpurgis
22-09-2016, 08:42
Are ribbon tweeters generally better at providing an extended HF response? If you have ribbon tweeter installed is there not much benefit from installing a super tweeter?

Ribbon drivers have low mass diaphragms which are driven over their whole surface, which means they can move fast and reproduce the small wavelength output for extended frequencies.

YNWaN
22-09-2016, 14:20
Are ribbon tweeters generally better at providing an extended HF response? If you have ribbon tweeter installed is there not much benefit from installing a super tweeter?

"Are ribbon tweeters generally better at providing an extended HF response" - they can be but just being a ribbon driver doesn't make it necessarily so. As to potential benefit - it depends on the ribbon driver and the super-tweeter.

Covenant
22-09-2016, 17:20
I would be interested to see what a SW does but the cost of those Townsend jobbies is about the same as I paid for my speakers so that's not going to happen.

walpurgis
22-09-2016, 17:52
If you just want to experiment, just get a pair of cheap Chinese 8 ohm ribbon tweeters from eBay and give it a try. Even the 'cheapies' can work surprisingly well. It's all just a bit of fun.

Or, you might be able to persuade Grant to part with a pair. I think he has some doing nothing at the moment.

southall-1998
22-09-2016, 21:18
Slightly off topic.

Geoff, please choose an Avatar, and bloody settle down :D

S.

walpurgis
22-09-2016, 21:37
Slightly off topic.

Geoff, please choose an Avatar, and bloody settle down :D

S.

I have chosen one. I'll be choosing another soon. :D

southall-1998
22-09-2016, 21:48
I have chosen one. I'll be choosing another soon. :D

Don't you bloody dare!!

S.

tapid
24-09-2016, 07:55
He s driving my lust for sugary foods mad with his chocolate cake and lovely desserts !

walpurgis
24-09-2016, 09:06
He s driving my lust for sugary foods mad with his chocolate cake and lovely desserts !

What? Like this do you mean? :D

Lawrence001
24-09-2016, 09:41
When i tried them, i perceived an effect on bass too, although i was informed by the informed that this cannot happen.. still, it did in my view.. Overall i preferred the system without them. Still have a couple of sets lying in shed unused... ribbon and horn i think. One boxed set i used were sold to someone on here...

I might be interested in trying a pair if they are going spare. But I would like a pair with an attenuation option as I had a pair before and it was too sensitive for my speakers.


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walpurgis
24-09-2016, 09:59
If you can clearly hear the output from a supertweeter, it's coming in too low down. Try reducing capacitor size until the tweeter's presence is only discerned by its absence when disconnected (assuming it's on a 6db/oct filter). The effect on music is very noticeable. If you are using a high sensitivity tweeter, use an 'L' pad to control output. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Monacor-AT-52H-50W-8-Ohm-Loudspeaker-L-pad-Attenuator-/141847030947?hash=item2106bdeca3:g:PwUAAOSwNphWZX2 8

The Black Adder
24-09-2016, 10:32
My Harbeth SHL5's had Supertweeters... lovely sounding.

I've often thought about getting some but the prices are crazy especially the Tannoy ones of which I'm sure could be improved on for less money. I've just not had the time to look in to them enough to be honest. But to be honest, I like how my system sounds.

Macca
24-09-2016, 10:43
My vintage Akais utilise 3 supertweeters - now that is supertweeting. :)

Seems to me it was a Seventies thing, then it died out a bit and came back with the advent of 'hi rez' when speakers and amps needed to reach 48 kHz and beyond to fully exploit the new format. Allegedly, anyway.

I think any benefit experienced is due to reinforcement in the audible band, no different from having a normal tweeter with a higher output post 10Khz. Adds a bit of perceived 'air and space' without making the sound 'bright' or toppy.

mad-moon
24-09-2016, 11:31
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TakeT-BATPURE-Super-Tweeter-set-/201646875096?hash=item2ef31721d8:g:33UAAOSwuYVWpWr U

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff281/spooneymoon/BATS_zpso0zizktv.jpg (http://s236.photobucket.com/user/spooneymoon/media/BATS_zpso0zizktv.jpg.html)

Macca
24-09-2016, 11:40
There is one for headphones too:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TAKET-BPP-Portable-Super-Tweeter/141791956165?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%2 6asc%3D20140122125356%26meid%3Dfb7a03bc1ebb4853960 4ddf68390be6c%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26 sd%3D201646875096

'A treble goes out the expansion and merges in air. A mid to bass becomes a glossy sound with the thickness'

Can't argue with that.

Covenant
24-09-2016, 11:46
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TakeT-BATPURE-Super-Tweeter-set-/201646875096?hash=item2ef31721d8:g:33UAAOSwuYVWpWr U

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff281/spooneymoon/BATS_zpso0zizktv.jpg (http://s236.photobucket.com/user/spooneymoon/media/BATS_zpso0zizktv.jpg.html)

Thats more like it price wise! Are they any good?

mad-moon
24-09-2016, 11:53
they are tremendous...they have an effect over the whole range, adding body, depth and clarity...you can't actually here the tweeters...why they do this...I don't know...I just know they do it...



Thats more like it price wise! Are they any good?

walpurgis
24-09-2016, 12:03
There are number of small ribbon tweeters available cheaply that are worth trying. The Philips branded Chinese items are OK. I have a pair.

Hudz
26-09-2016, 14:54
Shameless plug for my supertweeters for sale on Ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172352847118?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

Cheap way to try some, although they are a bit challenged in the looks department.

Apologies if this breaks any rules, was gonna stick them on here but had a mare trying to attach piccies.

Vince
01-10-2016, 16:37
I have had Townsend, Heil air motion and a couple of others and they all make a difference...for the better in my opinion. The pair that Mad-Moon is using are among the best I've tried. They do indeed affect all the frequency's and really fill the sound out. I find that adding a good sub also has an affect on the high frequency's as well. Dunno how it works, but it does.

CageyH
15-11-2016, 12:42
I am expecting a set of Taket BatPure super tweeters to be waiting for me when I get home.
Steve Jay from Electric Beach recommended them to me, and has suggested several mounting positions to try.

It will be interesting to see what they do to the sound.

Covenant
16-11-2016, 08:08
I am expecting a set of Taket BatPure super tweeters to be waiting for me when I get home.
Steve Jay from Electric Beach recommended them to me, and has suggested several mounting positions to try.

It will be interesting to see what they do to the sound.

Looking forward to your review.

Lawrence001
16-11-2016, 08:15
Are you getting the cheap naked ones or the expensive version in a metal case with sockets? I like the look of the latter but the price difference looks crazy if they are just sticking them in a nice box. If the tweeter itself is superior then fair enough.


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CageyH
16-11-2016, 09:19
I bought the cheap, naked ones.
I believe the tweeter is the same as the expensive ones.

I can't hear much coming from them. I must be too old to pick up on frequencies over 25khz.
I installed them at 10pm last night, and won't get much of a chance before the weekend for a proper play.

walpurgis
16-11-2016, 10:01
I can't hear much coming from them. I must be too old to pick up on frequencies over 25khz.

If you can clearly hear distinct output from supertweeters, then they are set up incorrectly. Coming in too low or on too shallow a filter.

CageyH
16-11-2016, 10:06
Well at the moment, I have no idea if they are working.
I need to do some back to back listening to see if I can perceive a change in the sound.

Lawrence001
16-11-2016, 10:08
These have no crossover just a natural mechanical filter


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Stratmangler
16-11-2016, 10:13
Well at the moment, I have no idea if they are working.
I need to do some back to back listening to see if I can perceive a change in the sound.

Which speakers are you using?

Lawrence001
16-11-2016, 10:17
If they don't work for you I might be willing to give them a shot. Don't want to seem like a vulture though!


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walpurgis
16-11-2016, 10:19
These have no crossover just a natural mechanical filter

Seems unlikely. What's to protect from overload? The webpage Chinglish is not exactly clear, but there is mention of a capacitor. Maybe it's built in.

CageyH
16-11-2016, 10:38
I am using Electric Beach FH3 speakers.

Macca
16-11-2016, 10:40
Seems unlikely. What's to protect from overload? The webpage Chinglish is not exactly clear, but there is mention of a capacitor. Maybe it's built in.

it does imply that, but if so it must be a very small capacitor.

walpurgis
16-11-2016, 10:45
it does imply that, but if so it must be a very small capacitor.

Some of the caps I've used successfully with supertweeters have been tiny. 0.22uFd ain't big.

Stratmangler
16-11-2016, 10:47
I thought you might be.
Metal drivers?
They're probably Markaudio Alpair 7s and they go clean up to 32kHz, not that you'll be able to hear that high.
I'd be surprised if you could hear as high as 19kHz - that's usually reserved for teenagers (which is why teenagers are bothered by the "Mosquito Sounders" that are designed to make them go away - they chuck out a tone at 17.4kHz).

walpurgis
16-11-2016, 11:03
Some of the best results I've had have been Celestion HF2000 units. They clearly smoothed out the extreme top end nicely, without ever making themselves evident.

CageyH
16-11-2016, 11:57
I thought you might be.
Metal drivers?
They're probably Markaudio Alpair 7s and they go clean up to 32kHz, not that you'll be able to hear that high.
I'd be surprised if you could hear as high as 19kHz - that's usually reserved for teenagers (which is why teenagers are bothered by the "Mosquito Sounders" that are designed to make them go away - they chuck out a tone at 17.4kHz).

Yes, the MA 7 gold drivers.
For me it is about the affect that the super tweeters will have on the overall sound.
I have wired them up with some Cat5 cable of sufficient length so that I can experiment with placement.

The Black Adder
16-11-2016, 11:58
I thought you might be.
Metal drivers?
They're probably Markaudio Alpair 7s and they go clean up to 32kHz, not that you'll be able to hear that high.
I'd be surprised if you could hear as high as 19kHz - that's usually reserved for teenagers (which is why teenagers are bothered by the "Mosquito Sounders" that are designed to make them go away - they chuck out a tone at 17.4kHz).

I'm not a teenager any more, far from it but I can most certainly hear that frequency, it's bloody horrible.

I was thinking of getting some Super Tweeters a while back for my Tannoys. It would be interesting to try but the Tannoy ST200's are bonkers money. Would I be able to better the Tannoy ones for a lot less pay out?

CageyH
16-11-2016, 12:01
The BatPure cost me €53 delivered.
Are they better than the Tannoys? I doubt it, but they are probably good enough to see if you like the effect of the super tweeters.

walpurgis
16-11-2016, 12:11
Would I be able to better the Tannoy ones for a lot less pay out?

Not having heard the Tannoy supertweeters, I can't say. But you could certainly experiment at modest cost Jo. There are decent ribbon and isodynamic drivers available at reasonable prices.

Something like this maybe: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2pcs-100MM-Ribbon-Tweeters-8-Ohms-K-O-HIVI-RT1C-/221764744946?hash=item33a23576f2:g:NR8AAOSwBLlVSYc h I have bought some good bits from this seller. It's just a question of waiting a few weeks for delivery from HK. There may be duty, but it won't be huge.

I think Grant may have a pair tucked away. I have a larger set waiting for a project. They are actually isodynamics. Sensitivity is about right for use with Tannoys.

DSJR
16-11-2016, 12:32
Tannoy's oval 'Super-tweeters' of old were actually measured coming in at 8kHz and were probably there more to enhance and smooth the sometimes lumpy DC tweeter I think. Be careful of metal dome tweeters, as practically all of them sound off like tin cans at 25k to 30kHz depending on price... This resonance is huge and mostly uncontrolled, usually 10db or more. Speaker designers ignore it because no CD has output over 22k (most analogue transfers run out little over 17K I've discovered via Foobar spectrum analyser and many MP3's have all but nothing over 14K either). Some vinyl systems will have noise and distortion over 20k as the styli go into resonance though, although I was told that little is actually cut into the lacquer over 15k as it overloads or overheats the cutting lathe apparently.

Reffc
16-11-2016, 12:55
Tannoy's oval 'Super-tweeters' of old were actually measured coming in at 8kHz and were probably there more to enhance and smooth the sometimes lumpy DC tweeter I think. Be careful of metal dome tweeters, as practically all of them sound off like tin cans at 25k to 30kHz depending on price... This resonance is huge and mostly uncontrolled, usually 10db or more. Speaker designers ignore it because no CD has output over 22k (most analogue transfers run out little over 17K I've discovered via Foobar spectrum analyser and many MP3's have all but nothing over 14K either). Some vinyl systems will have noise and distortion over 20k as the styli go into resonance though, although I was told that little is actually cut into the lacquer over 15k as it overloads or overheats the cutting lathe apparently.


Actually, it's not the tweeter it's the standard crossovers and cabinet designs that can affect HF response in the lower HF. With sorted crossovers and cabinets, HF response is pretty decent (and better than many!) up to around 15KHz before there's a characteristic spike of 5dB or so followed by a dip towards 20KHz where they roll off. The roll-off starts a little lower at around 18KKz. They also have a small dip sub 3KHz. The spike is all but inaudible at the upper frequency and certainly doesn't intrude...if anything it helps even out perceived sound as your own hearing starts to drop off after our 20's and by your 40's most people have down-turned sensitivity past 15 or 16KHz. What many hear is coarseness or roughness is way lower down, at crossover and at 3KHz horn resonance. Crossovers can be improved to provide a very smooth (and inaudible crossover point) and there's a few tricks that can be played with design to improve the horn notch filters. Anyone who has heard a sorted pair will know that.

All the Tannoy ST's I've heard did, at the expense of phase accuracy (they ruin HF phase response as with almost all super tweeters, by creating comb filtering) was to boost HF response at lower HF, from between 8 an 10KHz upwards, giving a raised on and off-axis response. Whilst this was bearable at low or moderate levels where the perception is of added "air and presence" it becomes ear-bleedingly obvious at higher volumes. Tannoy DC's so not need ST's to perform well. If people like an uptuned HF response, fine, but that's a hell of a lot of money to chuck at a lifted response which can be achieved without a fraction of that cost by other means! Not all metal dome designs exhibit such large resonant peaks either. It depends entirely on design and damping. Of those that do, measurement shows with may that the artifacts do not intrude much, if at all, below about 18KHz with most I've measured.

Its a bit like saying "don't use SEAS Excel midwoofers because they have massive break up resonance and spikes (+15dB)". Tell that to designers like Linkwitz who uses them to fabulous effect on his Orion OB loudspeakers thanks to the ability to create steep active slopes at crossover. Similarly, any problem tweeter can easily be tamed by the application of a zobel targeted to roll the thing off for those that do extend well beyond 20KHz.

CageyH
16-11-2016, 20:24
A quick back to back with the STs taped to the back of my speakers and it seems that they make a subtle difference.
Bass and miss seem more detailed, and there seems to be more "air" in the soundstage.

I need to try them pointing forwards, and in the horn mouths to see what I prefer, but it very much looks like I will be keeping hold of these.

PaulStewart
17-11-2016, 01:18
The BatPure cost me €53 delivered.
Are they better than the Tannoys? I doubt it, but they are probably good enough to see if you like the effect of the super tweeters.
I've tried the BatPure and a few others and I find the ST200s work best with MGs

agk
17-11-2016, 13:10
When i tried them, i perceived an effect on bass too, although i was informed by the informed that this cannot happen.. still, it did in my view.. Overall i preferred the system without them. Still have a couple of sets lying in shed unused... ribbon and horn i think. One boxed set i used were sold to someone on here...

Off topic but if you've still got these Grant can we come to some arrangement?

struth
17-11-2016, 13:12
Off topic but if you've still got these Grant can we come to some arrangement?

Alas both were sold Andrew

agk
17-11-2016, 13:21
Hey ho, I shall buy some of the Philips ribbons from that auction site and have a play.

Lawrence001
18-11-2016, 18:12
Related to this topic I took delivery of a nackered pair of Mordaunt arundels today. I took the romagna crossovers and Kelly ribbons out and stuck them on top of my wharfedales. Listening to Eva Cassidy now every little nuance of her voice and breathing is coming through. Obviously not supertweeters as they are crossed over at normal tweeter frequency but very exciting, now I just need to make a box and custom crossover. Any help appreciated!


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walpurgis
18-11-2016, 18:26
The Decca DK30 ribbons work superbly as supertweeters. Just roll them in high with a 0.5uFd or 0.22uFd series capacitor. I know this works, as It's setup I had with my Tannoys years ago.

Lawrence001
18-11-2016, 18:29
Thanks but does that protect them enough I read somewhere an 18db/octave slope is best. Although I guess if you crossover high enough first order will be ok, do you happen to know what frequency those values correspond to?


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walpurgis
18-11-2016, 19:09
They'll be fine. With capacitors that small, there'll not be much signal reaching the ribbons below about 12kHz. An 18db/oct slope may be handy if you're supplementing something like the Celestion HF1300, which has a very steep top cut off, but a shallow slope is OK in most situations and would likely sound smoother too.