The Great UK HIFI industry sell off

[daytona600]

now SME

Ajay Shirke, who is already a major shareholder in Siltech/Crystal Cable and Spendor.
But one thing is certain: with Quad, KEF, B&W , Tannoy , Naim and now SME all held in overseas ownership, the first generation of UK audio pioneers has well and truly passed.

[Arkless Electronics]

"Selling England by the pound"

[southall-1998]

Very disappointing news indeed!

I sincerely hope Rega, Sugden etc don't send up the same!!!

S.

[Macca]

"Selling England by the pound"

You can't be avowedly anti-nationalist and complain when foreigners buy companies previously owned by British people.

To me it is British if it is made here. Who owns it matters not. What percentage of Nissan Motors stock is held by Japanese? (Okay probably quite a lot but that's to miss my point).

[struth]

Factories close soon and sent to China or India I guess, if its not done already, and then plastic perhaps shock, horror, probe

[Arkless Electronics]

You can't be avowedly anti-nationalist and complain when foreigners buy companies previously owned by British people.

To me it is British if it is made here. Who owns it matters not. What percentage of Nissan Motors stock is held by Japanese? (Okay probably quite a lot but that's to miss my point).

Oh I can be quite contrary at times:D

Sour grapes n all that but doing what I do for what is laughingly known as "a living" it rather pisses one off to see "brand name" seemingly mean just about everything to hi fi customers.... So much so that big business wants to add them to their portfolio! If I couldn't easily make amps that piss on anything Naim build I would give up now... getting anyone to buy from a small non brand name company is a completely different kettle of fish though:( Short rant over:D

[Macca]

Getting stuff made there to a standard is still not easy. Then there are the import tarrifs and all that cost and agro. More cars made in the UK now than ever before for example. You just don't need the army of unskilled and semi-skilled that you did before to make them. That's the difference.

[Macca]

Oh I can be quite contrary at times:D

Sour grapes n all that but doing what I do for what is laughingly known as "a living" it rather pisses one off to see "brand name" seemingly mean just about everything to hi fi customers.... So much so that big business wants to add them to their portfolio! If I couldn't easily make amps that piss on anything Naim build I would give up now... getting anyone to buy from a small non brand name company is a completely different kettle of fish though:( Short rant over:D

In reality it could be of advantage to you. You are still a British designed and built brand. That plays well with the Far East.

[Arkless Electronics]

In reality it could be of advantage to you. You are still a British designed and built brand. That plays well with the Far East.

Only to a brand name obsessed audience of far east types that love anything British with decades of heritage though!
Meanwhile when it comes to expensive hi fi made by one man bands it seems that being Japanese is what sells it over here:eek:

[Infinitely Baffled]

To me it is British if it is made here. Who owns it matters not.

Fair point about what it is that actually makes it "British". But I doubt that the new owners will be content to merely hold the stock and collect the divis. Expect large amounts of "shareholder guidance" (ie. management) to emanate from foreign parts now: product line strategy, brand positioning, rationalization of costs, etc. Of course, none of this is a problem if the new owners are committed to the same engineering and commercial values as the "old"company were. It would be a shame, though, for it to end up being owned by Moet-Hennessey-Wotnot and being sold in chi-chi boutiques alongside Louis Vuitton handbags.

[Barry]

Oh well, that's another brand that is now certain to go 'downhill'. It was nice whilst it lasted, but expect less after-sales service, and more 'value engineering'.

Quad, SME, Wharfedale, Goodmans, Leak, ... RIP.

[petrat]

Any links to this news?
Is this just the audio stuff ... I thought SME made most of their money as a sub-contractor, manufacturing custom precision parts for other companies?

[Macca]

Fair point about what it is that actually makes it "British". But I doubt that the new owners will be content to merely hold the stock and collect the divis. Expect large amounts of "shareholder guidance" (ie. management) to emanate from foreign parts now: product line strategy, brand positioning, rationalization of costs, etc. Of course, none of this is a problem if the new owners are committed to the same engineering and commercial values as the "old"company were. It would be a shame, though, for it to end up being owned by Moet-Hennessey-Wotnot and being sold in chi-chi boutiques alongside Louis Vuitton handbags.

I agree but you tell me that isn't the way the world is going.

[The Black Adder]

Ho well... another one bites the dust. The workers will be given a young person to train up to eventually take over their jobs overseas.

Yes it's the way things are, but this has always been the case for UK companies. Let's take ARM for instance, now that really surprised me and I feel that is a HUGE loss to UK manufacturing.

[Macca]

Yes it's the way things are, but this has always been the case for UK companies. Let's take ARM for instance, now that really surprised me and I feel that is a HUGE loss to UK manufacturing.

RE ARM I've not seen any suggestion that they plan to move anything out of the UK. It was already a global company. The reality is that who owns a company and where they actually manufacture are almost totally unrelated factors.

[The Black Adder]

RE ARM I've not seen any suggestion that they plan to move anything out of the UK. It was already a global company. The reality is that who owns a company and where they actually manufacture are almost totally unrelated factors.

Yeah, but IMO they will do though... they always do. It's almost a given, a prerequisite to a major buy out these days for any UK company. If not a manufacturing facility then the head office, if not that then a research lab. It's just how it is... it's expensive here.

It will happen to SME. It will be a company name only, just like Tannoy and Quad. They are the financial blueprint of a vintage UK audio company. Quality of their products could go either way, worse, same or better... But they will homogenise further.

[Neil McCauley]

Interesting thread. It prompted me to ask myself if there a verifiable relationship between UK makers’ migration and the nature of the UK preowned market?

I think there is. Please let me explain.

First, I am unconvinced that an offshore production facility will automatically lead to a downgrading of quality. It certainly might (as in the case of PS Audio’s apparent ‘disaster’ re the final generation of the Power Plant Premier being moved to China and then all production being moved back to Colorado) but not always. Tens of millions of i-phones (one example of many) are built in the Far East with rarely a quality control issue

Seen through a different ‘lens’ one question rarely addressed is why UK brands end up in the Far East?

Of course the temptation to ‘sell out’ for ‘big bucks’ is for some brands irresistible, especially if they have shareholders expecting a worthwhile return on investment and/or working capital is next to non-existent.

My frequent discussions with some smaller UK brands - by which I mean they have their both their R&D and production facilities in the UK - paints a mixed picture. Some struggle and some don’t but ….. there is a common denominator in that the majority (as best I can judge) all rely on the export market.

Without this they sincerely believe that they will cease trading – sooner or later!

The majority (but not unanimous) conclusion is that an increasing proportion of the UK target end-user population is ONLY interested in pre-owned equipment via auction sites and/or fora. Consequently the raw arithmetic is that those preowned buyers contribute nothing – either directly or indirectly - to the profit and sustainability of the maker.

In essence, product ‘A’ makes profit for the maker once and once only irrespective of how frequently it is resold.

This is not, they tell me, to condemn the pre-owned market per se. It has benefits they feel in introducing an owner to a brand - at a low price compared to new - who might, just might trade up to a new unit which helps sustain both the retailer and the maker. But that, in isolation, is insufficient. Here’s the ‘logic’ that is increasingly voiced by some of the smaller makers I talk to. It goes like this:


IF my survival is reliant on exports and …
IF insufficient UK buyers are prepared to buy new and …
IF I can reduce my labour and transport costs in order to reduce the trade price in the export markets by shifting production geographically closer to those markets then…
WE would be stupid not to do so.

Unless I’m missing something here, it seems, for now at least, an unassailable logic.

As one put it to me recently; “Nostalgia doesn’t pay my bills”

[Infinitely Baffled]

A v. interesting post, Neil. Made me wince a bit, though. As a fairly frequent buyer of second hand British (and some non-British) hi-fi, I have to hold my hand up as being part of the problem. I think part of the issue is that when someone - take any of us on the forum as an example - really gets interested in hi-fi, it becomes no longer merely a consumer product to them. It becomes an object of interest, pleasure and satisfaction in and of itself. I may be wrong, but I suspect that that in itself causes a large number of us to look at classic or home-built kit in preference to shiny new boxes - it is just so much more hobby-worthy (and, to be frank, geekish). Especially when, for very reasonable money,you can get something like a Quad electrostatic loudspeaker that still outperforms a slimline modern box in some key areas as well as having a sky-high pride-of possession/tactile/nerd factor. You don't even have to sacrifice performance.

Is it a case of the British hi-fi industry being killed off by the very folk who love British hi-fi the most?
Gary.

[Neil McCauley]

A v. interesting post, Neil. Made me wince a bit, though. As a fairly frequent buyer of second hand British (and some non-British) hi-fi, I have to hold my hand up as being part of the problem. I think part of the issue is that when someone - take any of us on the forum as an example - really gets interested in hi-fi, it becomes no longer merely a consumer product to them. It becomes an object of interest, pleasure and satisfaction in and of itself. I may be wrong, but I suspect that that in itself causes a large number of us to look at classic or home-built kit in preference to shiny new boxes - it is just so much more hobby-worthy (and, to be frank, geekish). Especially when, for very reasonable money,you can get something like a Quad electrostatic loudspeaker that still outperforms a slimline modern box in some key areas as well as having a sky-high pride-of possession/tactile/nerd factor. You don't even have to sacrifice performance.

Is it a case of the British hi-fi industry being killed off by the very folk who love British hi-fi the most?
Gary.

Hello Gary, and thank you. Well, regarding "Is it a case of the British hi-fi industry being killed off by the very folk who love British hi-fi the most?" it's not the entire story of course and I realise you didn't assert that it was but ironic though the question is, I have to agree with you.

I would substitute the word 'emasculated' for 'killed off' but in the main i agree. Currently I can't see a solution.

As an aside, another ‘nail’ in a few (but not all) industry ‘coffins’ is the unfortunate fact that a few of the more enlightened makers, and please note I don’t use the word enlightened ironically is they have been, for some years, in fierce competition with themselves.

Take for example the highly regarded by me Meridian 101b/105s combination available these days for peanuts as indeed is the 101b/103d. Then compare these through identical speakers at identical volumes to anything from their current range. I did.

The key point is not – in this context – the sound quality per se but was there a consistent improvement rather than a mere difference on all music genres? to justify the monumental price differential?

I discovered that for me, true improvements (rather than self-delusion that a difference is automatically an improvement which, in my experience, is rarely the case) were marginal.

Yes, the 2016 Meridian amp sounded to me a tad more dynamic, a little more crisp, a smidgen more detailed and the bass fractionally more agile. But, and this is for me the key point, the 1976 Meridian (un-modified and un-serviced and yes, a bit battered) didn’t justify the differential cost by ‘upgrading’ to something from the same brand 40 years after the original.

This is, for many makers, a very contentious subject. I used Meridian as one example from many. Others from direct personal experience include the vintage Mark Levinson ML6a compared to ANY of their subsequent preamps at any price, the astonishing Musical Fidelity 750k amp against anything I have subsequently heard from the brand. And that’s just electronics. You get the idea I’m sure.

If there is interest then I might expand on this. Meanwhile I leave you with the following question albeit with no obvious answer that occurs to me.

IF the magazines really, really had the interests of their readers as paramount whereas – of course – they must accept the commercial reality of advertisers, then they would (as just one illustrative example from a field of many) conduct the Meridian then-and-now aka ‘forty years on’ comparison as discussed above on other brands. I’m not holding my breath.

[Neil McCauley]

A point I overlooked in my previous post. Thoughts invited please.

When conducting a then-versus-now comparison such as the vintage Meridian 101b/105s versus the best of their current range, should the 'then' unit be left un-modified ie as a buyer might reasonably be expected to purchase OR should it be returned to the makers for a full service and brought up to the (in this instance) 1976 specification?

[Spectral Morn]

A point I overlooked in my previous post. Thoughts invited please.

When conducting a then-versus-now comparison such as the vintage Meridian 101b/105s versus the best of their current range, should the 'then' unit be left un-modified ie as a buyer might reasonably be expected to purchase OR should it be returned to the makers for a full service and brought up to the (in this instance) 1976 specification?

If electrically safe and close to spec then yes, if not then serviced, not modified. Interesting points, food for thought.

[Arkless Electronics]

Some very thought provoking posts there Neil:)

It has long been a case of "export or die" in the UK hi fi industry I think but the state of the domestic market, as you describe, is making this more important than ever for the larger companies especially. Certainly even back in the mid '90's when I worked for Alchemist Products most of our output went directly to importers and distributors in Indonesia, Malaysia etc.

Another issue is that, as the AOS age poll reveals, hi fi is a hobby largely of interest to the 50+ age group who grew up yearning for fancy hi fi gear that they can now afford. There does not seem to me much of an influx of youth to the hobby to keep it going unfortunately... not in the U.K anyway.

As to the Meridian gear well I've rebuilt quite a few 101's, 105's and even the active speakers over the years and whilst certainly good I always found them a touch "transistory" and "chrome plated" by N'th degree critical standards... still nice though and a classic. Unlike the Meridian MCA which I wouldn't touch with a bargepole and would not work on having done a few in the past;)

[Spectral Morn]

Some very thought provoking posts there Neil:)

It has long been a case of "export or die" in the UK hi fi industry I think but the state of the domestic market, as you describe, is making this more important than ever for the larger companies especially. Certainly even back in the mid '90's when I worked for Alchemist Products most of our output went directly to importers and distributors in Indonesia, Malaysia etc.

Another issue is that, as the AOS age poll reveals, hi fi is a hobby largely of interest to the 50+ age group who grew up yearning for fancy hi fi gear that they can now afford. There does not seem to me much of an influx of youth to the hobby to keep it going unfortunately... not in the U.K anyway.

As to the Meridian gear well I've rebuilt quite a few 101's, 105's and even the active speakers over the years and whilst certainly good I always found them a touch "transistory" and "chrome plated" by N'th degree critical standards... still nice though and a classic. Unlike the Meridian MCA which I wouldn't touch with a bargepole and would not work on having done a few in the past;)

I've never actually heard a 101 period item, used to get them in as trade in stock back in the early 90s when I was in audio retailing. 200 series I remember well enough. I have a G series pre and power and I like them ok, not the most transparent items but musical for solid state.

[topoxforddoc]

Neil has hit it on the head. I wonder how many people on the hi-fl fora have bought anything "new" from a British manufacturer in the last 3-4 years. New could be brand new or an ex-demo item from a dealer. I suspect not very many.

On a different forum, I found some challenging responses to my support (solely as a very happy consumer and buyer of NEW equipment) for a UK manufacturer. I enjoyed listening to the items in my system, had great after sales support and would not dream now of making any significant changes. Bizarrely I found that other forum members (many of whom probably bought much of their gear second hand to save money) making derisory comments and suggesting that the price of the equipment was too high.

Personally I think that consumers have to support manufacturers by buying new stuff. If not, then we will all end up with no UK hi-fi industry and the loss of British jobs and incomes. Otherwise, there's no point in bleating about it, as the inevitable will just happen.

[Neil McCauley]

Neil has hit it on the head.

Personally I think that consumers have to support manufacturers by buying new stuff. If not, then we will all end up with no UK hi-fi industry and the loss of British jobs and incomes. Otherwise, there's no point in bleating about it, as the inevitable will just happen.

Thank you for the thumbs up. Meanwhile, your concluding paragraph accurately sums up the problem in my view.

I have asked a number of smaller UK makers how they see their position in the UK industry in 10 years time. All of the ones i asked felt it likely that their businesses would have ceased.

The same question though, pitched at 5 years out gave in contrast a considerably more optimistic outlook.

I'm not confident without further enquiries what can sensibly be concluded from this. Apart from anything else, given the elevated age of all the interviewees, they might believe that in 10 years mortality would have caught up with them. Or they might have retired.

After this I wondered if, given the situation (well known within the industry) but only catalysed by this thread - would i if I had the design skills + marketing skills + capital, would i start up a new UK based hifi company even if there was a verifiable niche?

Sad for me to report than knowing what i know - which is possibly only superficial i admit then no I would not. I suspect if I were exposed to much that is hidden re 'The Great UK HIFI industry sell off' then the 'no' would be even more emphatic than it is right now.

[Neil McCauley]

I've never actually heard a 101 period item, used to get them in as trade in stock back in the early 90s when I was in audio retailing. 200 series I remember well enough. I have a G series pre and power and I like them ok, not the most transparent items but musical for solid state.

Have you had a similar experience to me inasmuch as that comparing two models from the same brand - separated by 'n' years under the same speaker, same source and same volume criteria really didn't consistently justify the price differential?

Regards / Neil

[topoxforddoc]

Another problem is that successful businesses have significant marketing budgets. That's fine for markets, such as the Far East and the USA, where customers are happy to buy new. In some markets, e.g. the Far East, a rare and more expensive item is more valued and carries bragging rights - a queer situation for many folk perhaps on the average UK hi-fi fora.

In the UK, boutique manufacturers struggle to sell low-medium cost units, as they can't compete with the far east manufacturing costs. They also can't compete with the pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap merchants.

[Arkless Electronics]

Another problem is that successful businesses have significant marketing budgets. That's fine for markets, such as the Far East and the USA, where customers are happy to buy new. In some markets, e.g. the Far East, a rare and more expensive item is more valued and carries bragging rights - a queer situation for many folk perhaps on the average UK hi-fi fora.

In the UK, boutique manufacturers struggle to sell low-medium cost units, as they can't compete with the far east manufacturing costs. They also can't compete with the pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap merchants.

A few of us struggle on.. and it is a struggle I can tell you! I would make vastly more stacking supermarket shelves... good thing I don't do it for the money but because it is my calling in life...

[Spectral Morn]

Have you had a similar experience to me inasmuch as that comparing two models from the same brand - separated by 'n' years under the same speaker, same source and same volume criteria really didn't consistently justify the price differential?

Regards / Neil

Must be honest and say that bar CD players, no I haven't. I have compared various vintages of Marantz CD player to each other and more modern ones and generally the differences - improvements - do warrant getting the newer models, except in regards to build quality, earlier players in the £500 + range were better made compared to similar models today.

I suspect regarding amplification things may not have moved on that much, but I haven't done the comparisons so can say no more.

[Neil McCauley]

Must be honest and say that bar CD players, no I haven't. I have compared various vintages of Marantz CD player to each other and more modern ones and generally the differences - improvements - do warrant getting the newer models, except in regards to build quality, earlier players in the £500 + range were better made compared to similar models today.

I suspect regarding amplification things may not have moved on that much, but I haven't done the comparisons so can say no more.

Hello and thank you. I have to agree with you that my previous observations re amplification aren't reflected in the digital arena. I have indeed heard progressive improvements re integrated CD players and DACs that certainly warrantied investment. Regarding build quality, the very earliest Sony CDP 101 launched at a time when our local HMV only had four CD titles fetches truly absurdly high prices in the ultra high-end Japanese market albeit refitted with state-of-the-art DAC's and so on.

Re comparisons, it's a fun thing if you are a civilian and somewhat dispiriting if you are a retailer / maker / importer who year upon year introduces new models and price hikes without the ability to demonstrate that the requested customer investment consistently AND conclusively results in an improved sound.

[Reffc]

Interesting thread. It prompted me to ask myself if there a verifiable relationship between UK makers’ migration and the nature of the UK preowned market?

I think there is. Please let me explain.

First, I am unconvinced that an offshore production facility will automatically lead to a downgrading of quality. It certainly might (as in the case of PS Audio’s apparent ‘disaster’ re the final generation of the Power Plant Premier being moved to China and then all production being moved back to Colorado) but not always. Tens of millions of i-phones (one example of many) are built in the Far East with rarely a quality control issue

Seen through a different ‘lens’ one question rarely addressed is why UK brands end up in the Far East?

Of course the temptation to ‘sell out’ for ‘big bucks’ is for some brands irresistible, especially if they have shareholders expecting a worthwhile return on investment and/or working capital is next to non-existent.

My frequent discussions with some smaller UK brands - by which I mean they have their both their R&D and production facilities in the UK - paints a mixed picture. Some struggle and some don’t but ….. there is a common denominator in that the majority (as best I can judge) all rely on the export market.

Without this they sincerely believe that they will cease trading – sooner or later!

The majority (but not unanimous) conclusion is that an increasing proportion of the UK target end-user population is ONLY interested in pre-owned equipment via auction sites and/or fora. Consequently the raw arithmetic is that those preowned buyers contribute nothing – either directly or indirectly - to the profit and sustainability of the maker.

In essence, product ‘A’ makes profit for the maker once and once only irrespective of how frequently it is resold.

This is not, they tell me, to condemn the pre-owned market per se. It has benefits they feel in introducing an owner to a brand - at a low price compared to new - who might, just might trade up to a new unit which helps sustain both the retailer and the maker. But that, in isolation, is insufficient. Here’s the ‘logic’ that is increasingly voiced by some of the smaller makers I talk to. It goes like this:


IF my survival is reliant on exports and …
IF insufficient UK buyers are prepared to buy new and …
IF I can reduce my labour and transport costs in order to reduce the trade price in the export markets by shifting production geographically closer to those markets then…
WE would be stupid not to do so.

Unless I’m missing something here, it seems, for now at least, an unassailable logic.

As one put it to me recently; “Nostalgia doesn’t pay my bills”

Spot on Neil. Nail on head.

Look at just about any successful UK brand, including some of the smaller ones, and they simply could not survive in the UK market which has shrunk to almost nothing judging by UK sales. One company that I take work on for has sold something like 99% of all 2016 stock abroad, mostly to the Far East and some to the USA. Those seem to be the biggest two markets by far. We seem also to export more to mainland Europe than we sell here in the UK. The UK enthusiast, as you say, seems more concerned with the used market or for the very wealthy, buying non-UK products at a premium from overseas.

Even some small boutique companies do more in overseas sales...I know that I do. Many of my sales this year have been to the USA market. The UK has some fabulous hifi designers and manufacturers, but is no longer able to (or wants to) support them. Part of the reason to my mind is the consumerist marketing of convenience hifi products appealing to those considering the more traditional routes are old-hat, yet scratch the surface and that's simply not true from a sound quality perspective...just marketing to catch the lion's share. Ironically, such marketing has actually held back any real development or progress in the middle and budget sectors in recent years.

As Charlie has already said, part of the UK issue with smaller companies especially is marketing. The large companies can spend as much if not more on marketing for a year than on raw product, and can sell kit through distributor and dealer networks with a substantial mark-up (as is needed for that business model) yet for the same or in most cases, less outlay, the UK has access to a large number of smaller UK businesses which are providing far better VFM and quality of end product, yet most that I speak to are struggling. It's largely become pin-money or simply covers the overheads but nothing more.

It is no surprise then that many famous UK brands are relocating to where the majority sales are. I don't blame them as that makes business sense. If the UK wants to keep things in house, it must support them, instead of bemoaning the fact they're all leaving or folding up.

[Arkless Electronics]

Spot on Neil. Nail on head.

Look at just about any successful UK brand, including some of the smaller ones, and they simply could not survive in the UK market which has shrunk to almost nothing judging by UK sales. One company that I take work on for has sold something like 99% of all 2016 stock abroad, mostly to the Far East and some to the USA. Those seem to be the biggest two markets by far. We seem also to export more to mainland Europe than we sell here in the UK. The UK enthusiast, as you say, seems more concerned with the used market or for the very wealthy, buying non-UK products at a premium from overseas.

Even some small boutique companies do more in overseas sales...I know that I do. Many of my sales this year have been to the USA market. The UK has some fabulous hifi designers and manufacturers, but is no longer able to (or wants to) support them. Part of the reason to my mind is the consumerist marketing of convenience hifi products appealing to those considering the more traditional routes are old-hat, yet scratch the surface and that's simply not true from a sound quality perspective...just marketing to catch the lion's share. Ironically, such marketing has actually held back any real development or progress in the middle and budget sectors in recent years.

As Charlie has already said, part of the UK issue with smaller companies especially is marketing. The large companies can spend as much if not more on marketing for a year than on raw product, and can sell kit through distributor and dealer networks with a substantial mark-up (as is needed for that business model) yet for the same or in most cases, less outlay, the UK has access to a large number of smaller UK businesses which are providing far better VFM and quality of end product, yet most that I speak to are struggling. It's largely become pin-money or simply covers the overheads but nothing more.

It is no surprise then that many famous UK brands are relocating to where the majority sales are. I don't blame them as that makes business sense. If the UK wants to keep things in house, it must support them, instead of bemoaning the fact they're all leaving or folding up.

All very true and especially the bit in bold.

[spendorman]

An indication of British industry.

My Employment from the 1960's

1/ International Stores supermarket, closed down, went bust.

2/ JM Accessoriies (agent for Janspeed), closed down, presumably went bust.

3/ Specmac Engineering, closed down. Amazingly, according to Google Street View, the road where this company was is still mainly industrial.

4/ Boosey & Hawkes, closed site, buildings pulled down, houses and flats there now.

5/ Electrolux, closed site, pulled down buildings, houses and flats there now.

6/ Sunbeam Rowenta, closed down site, houses and flats there now.

7/ GEC Marconi, closed down site, houses and flats there now.

[struth]

An indication of British industry.

My Employment from the 1960's

1/ International Stores supermarket, closed down, went bust.

2/ JM Accessoriies (agent for Janspeed), closed down, presumably went bust.

3/ Specmac Engineering, closed down. Amazingly, according to Google Street View, the road where this company was is still mainly industrial.

4/ Boosey & Hawkes, closed site, buildings pulled down, houses and flats there now.

5/ Electrolux, closed site, pulled down buildings, houses and flats there now.

6/ Sunbeam Rowenta, closed down site, houses and flats there now.

7/ GEC Marconi, closed down site, houses and flats there now.

You werent lucky for companies were you Alex :rfl::rfl:

[Arkless Electronics]

"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey"

John Ruskin

Unfortunately most do consider price above all else! If this were not so then people would have bought British made goods and UK manufacturing would be alive and well.

[walpurgis]

You werent lucky for companies were you Alex :rfl::rfl:

Naughty Grant! :lol:

[spendorman]

You werent lucky for companies were you Alex :rfl::rfl:

Quite possibly, But, I was a bloomin hard worker, trouble perhaps, a lot of the others weren't!

[struth]

Quite possibly, But, I was a bloomin hard worker, trouble perhaps, a lot of the others weren't!

i went through a period of companies going bust or just closing myself actually... it is depressing, especially if you are happy and it happens. I got so fed up I started my own business.

[struth]

Also the British electronics and even rental companies were going through hard times. All the rental tv co's I worked for closed as tvs became more reliable and cheaper.. folk just bought them, and they rarely went fhut.... so out of a job lol... cant count how many I was with, so I got out of the business.. Went into sign installation etc. that was fun.:)

[Macca]

The demographics - as Ken Kessler pointed out, the old men at the shows he attended as a youth are gone, but his generation are now the old men and there are still plenty of younger people in attendance, who will one day be the old men themselves.

It isn't a cheap hobby once you get going so understandable that the main interest is from 50 plus people who have grown children, no mortgage, a reasonable disposable income, and more leisure time. Not all of those young 'uns are going to stick with an ipod and earbuds forever.

Like BDSM, hi-fi is a specialist market but one that will always have a significant minority interested; like BDSM, it is more common than we might think.

Differences in kit over the years is a difficult one I suspect most of us have not compared closely matched products. Amps are certainly cheaper in real terms for the sound on offer than they were. As Jez has remarked before that is due to op amps getting a lot better. At the high end I'm unsurprised to learn little has changed.

And digital? At the top level presentation may have changed, but I don't think sound quality has improved by much I at all. I cite the Technics slp1200 and the Sony players from the 80s and 90s like the X777.

There is also a cultural difference - as Charlie points out you might/will be criticised openly here in the UK for spending a serious chunk of money on your hi-fi, whereas in the East how much you spent is a badge of honour. Different cultures. So the export market is always the place to look for the British hi-fi manufacturer, expensive and British is what they want out there. Jez: that is who you should be designing for if you want to make a living.

[Arkless Electronics]

The demographics - as Ken Kessler pointed out, the old men at the shows he attended as a youth are gone, but his generation are now the old men and there are still plenty of younger people in attendance, who will one day be the old men themselves.

It isn't a cheap hobby once you get going so understandable that the main interest is from 50 plus people who have grown children, no mortgage, a reasonable disposable income, and more leisure time. Not all of those young 'uns are going to stick with an ipod and earbuds forever.

Like BDSM, hi-fi is a specialist market but one that will always have a significant minority interested; like BDSM, it is more common than we might think.

Differences in kit over the years is a difficult one I suspect most of us have not compared closely matched products. Amps are certainly cheaper in real terms for the sound on offer than they were. As Jez has remarked before that is due to op amps getting a lot better. At the high end I'm unsurprised to learn little has changed.

And digital? At the top level presentation may have changed, but I don't think sound quality has improved by much I at all. I cite the Technics slp1200 and the Sony players from the 80s and 90s like the X777.

There is also a cultural difference - as Charlie points out you might/will be criticised openly here in the UK for spending a serious chunk of money on your hi-fi, whereas in the East how much you spent is a badge of honour. Different cultures. So the export market is always the place to look for the British hi-fi manufacturer, expensive and British is what they want out there. Jez: that is who you should be designing for if you want to make a living.

Well open that closet there Martin!:D

As to the other bit in bold well unfortunately I run into a 12' thick brick wall of "it takes money to make money" in everything I do... I have no money so can't advertise, can't attend shows as a seller, can't export etc etc... I'm entirely relying on UK only sales from forums taking off sufficiently to be able to move forward with things. I will export to EU countries but people would have to buy unheard so there is little hope of that...
Maybe I'll have to look into appointing dealers etc but that means all prices will instantly go up by maybe 150%:eek: luckily the quality of my products is easily good enough to still be competitive at this mark up... It would be a last resort though. At the end of the day all I really want to do is sell say two high end-ish (£1k+) amplifiers a month, in the UK, and I'll have all I want:)

[SteveTheShadow]

IMHO the reason the hi fi industry has declined is because the equipment, especially the speakers looks like shite and doesn't fit into living rooms. Thats it.

[Macca]

Maybe I'll have to look into appointing dealers etc but that means all prices will instantly go up by maybe 150%:eek: luckily the quality of my products is easily good enough to still be competitive at this mark up... It would be a last resort though. At the end of the day all I really want to do is sell say two high end-ish (£1k+) amplifiers a month, in the UK, and I'll have all I want:)

Of course you will need dealers. And forget price. Aim for the market where price is not an issue to the buyer, providing they are getting what they want.

Really we all think the world will stand still despite all the evidence to the contrary. We can't go on making the same thing for generations, in the same places, in the same factories. What is wrong with British made hi-fi selling the vast majority overseas, the UK is 70 million people, the rest of the world is 7 billion people, I regard a hi-fi manufacturer who only makes sales in the UK as someone who is inexplicably missing a big opportunity.

[Arkless Electronics]

IMHO the reason the hi fi industry has declined is because the equipment, especially the speakers looks like shite and doesn't fit into living rooms. Thats it.

I disagree. IMHO all that is going to be mainly of concern to people who buy "lifestyle" products (:spew: at the very concept!). really good speakers will always be big and dominate the room so if this isnt for you (not you personally Steve) then buy a Bose:D Many do...

[Macca]

IMHO the reason the hi fi industry has declined is because the equipment, especially the speakers looks like shite and doesn't fit into living rooms. Thats it.

I agree that is a factor. You can hide the rest but not big speakers. Don't think that is the whole enchilada though.

[Arkless Electronics]

"Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
Maybe I'll have to look into appointing dealers etc but that means all prices will instantly go up by maybe 150% luckily the quality of my products is easily good enough to still be competitive at this mark up... It would be a last resort though. At the end of the day all I really want to do is sell say two high end-ish (£1k+) amplifiers a month, in the UK, and I'll have all I want"


Of course you will need dealers. And forget price. Aim for the market where price is not an issue to the buyer, providing they are getting what they want.

Really we all think the world will stand still despite all the evidence to the contrary. We can't go on making the same thing for generations, in the same places, in the same factories. What is wrong with British made hi-fi selling the vast majority overseas, the UK is 70 million people, the rest of the world is 7 billion people, I regard a hi-fi manufacturer who only makes sales in the UK as someone who is inexplicably missing a big opportunity.

Form an orderly queue now gentleman and buy Arkless Electronics gear for £1K before it goes up to £2.5K for exactly the same unit! Bah... people don't recognise a bargain these days:D

[SteveTheShadow]

Jez, You can disagree all you want, but that's the way it is and it will not change until the industry gets its act together. But that has no chance of happening, so the decline will continue.
Speakers that need to be three feet from the back wall to sound right? I mean WTF is that all about?
I say again the gear looks like shite and until the sound before looks brigade get a grip and acquire some sense, then the industry as we know it is doomed.
Also the gear needs to appeal to women, who are the major barrier to getting a decent system into a shared living space.
They hate speakers and until that barrier is overcome.......

[Marco]

IMHO the reason the hi fi industry has declined is because the equipment, especially the speakers looks like shite and doesn't fit into living rooms. Thats it.

They didn't in the 60s or 70s either, Steve, but that didn't stop (the then) golden era of British hi-fi, with pretty large speakers in situ in every discerning enthusiast's living room! ;)

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Jez, You can disagree all you want, but that's the way it is and it will not change until the industry gets its act together. But that has no chance of happening, so the decline will continue.
Speakers that need to be three feet from the back wall to sound right? I mean WTF is that all about?
I say again the gear looks like shite and until the sound before looks brigade get a grip and acquire some sense, then the industry as we know it is doomed.

I disagree even more strongly with that!! As Marco just said it didn't stop the hi fi boom in the past.... If one is into hifi enough to want to spend £10K on a system then "fitting in with the décor" isn't going to be your main concern;) And if you are not interested enough to spend more than a couple of hundred you will probably end up with said Bose anyway! I know several people who are certainly wealthy enough to afford mega hi fi's but they just ain't interested in anything better than the ubiquitous Bose.... It's a niche market;)

[Marco]

As Marco just said it didn't stop the hi fi boom in the past.... If one is into hifi enough to want to spend £10K on a system then "fitting in with the décor" isn't going to be your main concern;)

Indeed - and this WAF nonsense too today is partly what's killing the industry. Today's male 'audiophiles' need to grow a pair of balls, or better still, find the right partner in the first place, who shares their passion for hi-fi and music, instead of ones who do all they can to fight it!

:exactly:

Marco.

[SteveTheShadow]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7181882/tannoy.jpeg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7181882/bw.jpeg
1950s Tannoy corner unit vs those bloody monstrosities. Nuff said I think

[Arkless Electronics]

I prefer the B & W's in every way and by a country mile! i believe you may be in a minority on this one Steve!! have you tried mams-net?

it's actually always been a mantra of mine that if you are not willing to build the room around the hi fi.. and NOT the other way round, then don't even bother with a hi fi as it will sound crap;)

[SteveTheShadow]

it's actually always been a mantra of mine that if you are not willing to build the room around the hi fi.. and NOT the other way round, then don't even bother with a hi fi as it will sound crap;)

And that attitude is precisely why the industry is in terminal decline and will not recover.

[Arkless Electronics]

Not an attitude but simple fact. The laws of Physics ain't going to bend to your colour coordinated lifestyle hi fi ideas!! I've seen "Hi Fi;s" where the woman of the house has held sway... one speaker behind the telly and one in an opposite corner and both directly on the floor and being used as a floral display support device:D

[Neil McCauley]

Maybe I'll have to look into appointing dealers etc but that means all prices will instantly go up by maybe 150%:eek: luckily the quality of my products is easily good enough to still be competitive at this mark up... It would be a last resort though. At the end of the day all I really want to do is sell say two high end-ish (£1k+) amplifiers a month, in the UK, and I'll have all I want:)

Dealers? Really?

May I suggest you consider the following? All based on recent UK observations by a sample cross section of retailers / dealers. Here is, as I have been informed, the unvarnished truth for those in a similar positions to the one you describe:

Retailers these days usually only back brands with an established demand. Why? Well for a start, typically their total volume of sales does not increase annually. This means if they sell yours then it means not selling the other brand; the brand that has been their bread and butter for years. You think they’ll do this even if your product is superior. Wise up; they won’t.

If and I do mean if you get a foot in the door, typical terms are free demo stock just to see if (a) there is a market for your products and (b) if the can or more likely care to address that market. If you don’t like it then, away you go – right out the door.

Then once past that hurdle (and good luck there incidentally) your terms of trading will be ignored. They’ll want 90 days credit on all purchased items. Some demand and get, so I’m told 120 days credit. So now you’re a bank. Nice eh?

Then they might decide to return the loan stock, usually looking like its done a few rounds in car boot sale. You think you have a right to complain and, of course, you do. Will they listen? Of course not. You have no leverage. None!

But you might get lucky. Yes, you’re in. Wow. Pay day. Or is it? The sales aren’t coming in and so you try a couple of mystery shoppers by phone or walk in. Either way the outcome is the same and it’s utterly, utterly beyond your control. They are selling off of your product. Their loyalty lies elsewhere to people long before you came on the scene.

So, is their a viable solution?

Yes, there certainly is.

Sell direct. It’s always cashflow positive i.e. no credit and even the dumbest customer realises they are buying at a discount.

What started out as a hobbyist industry is cold, hard and unmerciful. Equipment is merely a commodity behind the warm words, the smiles, the firm handshakes and the unflinching eye contact.

It wasn’t like that in the 1970s. We aren’t in the 1970s though and so it’s a dog-eat-dog world.

You expect fairness? Think again. The retailers that (a) got big and {b) stayed big and (c) survived didn’t achieve any of that by being nice.

And I’ve only discussed the tip of the proverbial iceberg. I didn’t have time to enlighten you about the unpalatable truth and for some, the heartache of trying to get a review – any review – let alone a ‘good but’ review.

[SteveTheShadow]

Jez - Gimme a law of physics that says that speakers can't be put into corners.
Gimme a law of physics that says speakers can't be against walls/on bookshelves either side of a fireplace/TV.
Gimme a law of physics that says small speakers have to be on stands that look like something off Scrapyard Challenge.

The simple fact of the matter is that sloppy engineering is at the root of the speaker in the middle of the room syndrome.
And speaker in the middle of the room syndrome excludes decent hi-fi from the vast majority of British homes.
What other industry would put out products like this?

High end hi-fi looks like crap and no one in their right mind would give any of it houseroom. Until that changes etc etc.
Equipment like the stuff at most high end shows, with firehose speaker cable, oil platform turntables and amps that take up half the floor cannot be forced on customers. Your average wealthy punter would take one look and piss themselves laughing.

I'll also say that most of the stuff that people think is hi-fi ie Bose, ipod docks etc also looks like shite, but its discreet shite and that's how it gets past the door of yer average punter's home. That's the dichotomy; indiscreet, OTT shite vs discreet shite; no-brainer really and that is a huge problem for the industry.

[Arkless Electronics]

Dealers? Really?

May I suggest you consider the following? All based on recent UK observations by a sample cross section of retailers / dealers. Here is, as I have been informed, the unvarnished truth for those in a similar positions to the one you describe:

Retailers these days usually only back brands with an established demand. Why? Well for a start, typically their total volume of sales does not increase annually. This means if they sell yours then it means not selling the other brand; the brand that has been their bread and butter for years. You think they’ll do this even if your product is superior. Wise up; they won’t.

If and I do mean if you get a foot in the door, typical terms are free demo stock just to see if (a) there is a market for your products and (b) if the can or more likely care to address that market. If you don’t like it then, away you go – right out the door.

Then once past that hurdle (and good luck there incidentally) your terms of trading will be ignored. They’ll want 90 days credit on all purchased items. Some demand and get, so I’m told 120 days credit. So now you’re a bank. Nice eh?

Then they might decide to return the loan stock, usually looking like its done a few rounds in car boot sale. You think you have a right to complain and, of course, you do. Will they listen? Of course not. You have no leverage. None!

But you might get lucky. Yes, you’re in. Wow. Pay day. Or is it? The sales aren’t coming in and so you try a couple of mystery shoppers by phone or walk in. Either way the outcome is the same and it’s utterly, utterly beyond your control. They are selling off of your product. Their loyalty lies elsewhere to people long before you came on the scene.

So, is their a viable solution?

Yes, there certainly is.

Sell direct. It’s always cashflow positive i.e. no credit and even the dumbest customer realises they are buying at a discount.

What started out as a hobbyist industry is cold, hard and unmerciful. Equipment is merely a commodity behind the warm words, the smiles, the firm handshakes and the unflinching eye contact.

It wasn’t like that in the 1970s. We aren’t in the 1970s though and so it’s a dog-eat-dog world.

You expect fairness? Think again. The retailers that (a) got big and {b) stayed big and (c) survived didn’t achieve any of that by being nice.

And I’ve only discussed the tip of the proverbial iceberg. I didn’t have time to enlighten you about the unpalatable truth and for some, the heartache of trying to get a review – any review – let alone a ‘good but’ review.

Thanks for the home truths there Neil:) I kind of knew all that but maybe hadn't realised just what the dealer sales marketing option had come to nowadays... It's for all those reasons and more that I do indeed sell direct already. It was a little bit of thinking out loud in response to another post when I said "maybe I'll appoint dealers..." and I wasn't really all that serious;)

From your last paragraph I'm guessing there would be little point in approaching Hi-Fi Answers for a review in the future:eek: Especially as someone with no budget for magazine advertising... A "good but" review, given because although the product is wonderful, a magazine has a living to make... and they don't want to piss off their major advertisers by recommending too highly a rival product from a minnow sized company, would kill a first product from a relatively unknown manufacturer of course...

[Marco]

i believe you may be in a minority on this one Steve!!


Nope - I much prefer the Tannoys, by a country mile! ;)

Both in terms of their looks (I dig retro) and sound, as I've heard both speakers. Two totally different design concepts, though. I also understand where Steve's coming from, as far as how the majority of speakers these days have to be positioned in the room, in order to be sonically optimised.

You're spot on though - the bottom line is that if you've got any intentions of building a truly top-notch hi-fi system, the room has to serve IT, not the other way round! :nono:

That's why many of us have dedicated listening rooms, for that very purpose, separate from the main lounge. You wouldn't believe the stuff I've got going on inside the former, in order to optimise my system's performance - stuff I wouldn't dream of carrying out downstairs in our lounge...

At the end of the day, however, it boils down to your living requirements, how serious you are about building a seriously good system, and your partner's (if applicable) desire to achieve the same aims as you!

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Jez - Gimme a law of physics that says that speakers can't be put into corners.
Gimme a law of physics that says speakers can't be against walls/on bookshelves either side of a fireplace/TV.
Gimme a law of physics that says small speakers have to be on stands that look like something off Scrapyard Challenge.

The simple fact of the matter is that sloppy engineering is at the root of the speaker in the middle of the room syndrome.
And speaker in the middle of the room syndrome excludes decent hi-fi from the vast majority of British homes.
What other industry would put out products like this?

High end hi-fi looks like crap and no one in their right mind would give any of it houseroom. Until that changes etc etc.
Equipment like the stuff at most high end shows, with firehose speaker cable, oil platform turntables and amps that take up half the floor cannot be forced on customers. Your average wealthy punter would take one look and piss themselves laughing.

I'll also say that most of the stuff that people think is hi-fi ie Bose, ipod docks etc also looks like shite, but its discreet shite and that's how it gets past the door of yer average punter's home. That's the dichotomy; indiscreet, OTT shite vs discreet shite; no-brainer really and that is a huge problem for the industry.

Yours is only one take on the appearance of hifi though Steve;) Most on here think it looks great and even post pictures of it for other enthusiasts to see! It's mainly the WAF side that you're on about and, like Marco says, some men need to grow some when debating those Appogee Scintillas you are trying to "sneak" into the living room:D
Some billionaires probably have a vintage formula 1 racing car as the centrepiece of the room:eyebrows: Cos it looks cool as fook!

[Marco]

A "good but" review, given because although the product is wonderful, a magazine has a living to make... and they don't want to piss off their major advertisers by recommending too highly a rival product from a minnow sized company, would kill a first product from a relatively unknown manufacturer of course...

So what useful purpose does such a 'review' serve for a potential buyer, looking to build a system and achieve maximum 'bang for his (or her) buck'? Quite simply, it's a waste of the paper it's printed on!

That is why the days of magazines are numbered, and forums such as this are where most enthusiasts will turn to for knowledgeable and unbiased advice.

Marco.

[struth]

Yes, you do have to take some reviews with a modicum of salt . What HiFi etc come to mind, but its probably unfair to single them out. I guess there is no substitute to having a listen yourself, with your system.

[SteveTheShadow]

I too think the days of magazines are numbered, which is a shame as I like the tactile feel of a book/magazine.
Jez - we'll have to agree to disagree on this one as all that'll end up happening is it'll just develop into a circular agrgument and go nowhere.
I have been into hi-fi for the last 45 years and have plenty more views on things hi-fi that are diametrically opposed to most people's view; one of which is that there are no bad recordings, only bad systems and that philosophy plus my views on the vital importance of WAF, have helped me to develop a system that not only sounds great, but looks great and fits into a shared living space with no compromises regarding sound quality.
The fact that I've had to design and build most of it myself to get what I want is interesting.

[Reffc]

Nope - I much prefer the Tannoys, by a country mile! ;)

Both in terms of their looks (I dig retro) and sound, as I've heard both speakers. Two totally different design concepts, though. I also understand where Steve's coming from, as far as how the majority of speakers these days have to be positioned in the room, in order to be sonically optimised.

You're spot on though - the bottom line is that if you've got any intentions of building a truly top-notch hi-fi system, the room has to serve IT, not the other way round! :nono:

That's why many of us have dedicated listening rooms, for that very purpose, separate from the main lounge. You wouldn't believe the stuff I've got going on inside the former, in order to optimise my system's performance - stuff I wouldn't dream of carrying out downstairs in our lounge...

At the end of the day, however, it boils down to your living requirements, how serious you are about building a seriously good system, and your partner's (if applicable) desire to achieve the same aims as you!

Marco.

Same here Marco, but I would say that ;)

Far from being 1950's corner units or a pair you might have heard, those are actually my RFC Canterburys, which to my knowledge, only Tom, Martin and Will from this parish have so far heard, although you're welcome to if you want to pop in some time.

[Marco]

The fact that I've had to design and build most of it myself to get what I want is interesting.

Interesting and highly relevant, in terms of the results you've achieved!

However, don't think that you haven't made any compromises with your system, in terms of the restrictions governed by your listening space, which may not have happened if from the beginning you'd had an empty room inside which to have done as you wished! ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

Same here Marco, but I would say that ;)

Far from being 1950's corner units or a pair you might have heard, those are actually my RFC Canterburys, which to my knowledge, only Tom, Martin and Will from this parish have so far heard, although you're welcome to if you want to pop in some time.

Lol... Well, yes. I was referring to the best Tannoys in general, versus ANY tall, multi-driver floor-standing designs, not just those from B&W, which aren't my cuppa at all, mainly because I consider such speakers as fatally flawed, especially in terms of achieving realistic/accurate bass reproduction.

For me, in terms of the latter in particular, there's no substitute for a nice big single-DC driver inside a suitably large (wide-baffled) box!

And yes, I'd love to hear your Canterburys sometime :)

Marco.

[Neil McCauley]

Thanks for the home truths there Neil:) I kind of knew all that but maybe hadn't realised just what the dealer sales marketing option had come to nowadays... It's for all those reasons and more that I do indeed sell direct already. It was a little bit of thinking out loud in response to another post when I said "maybe I'll appoint dealers..." and I wasn't really all that serious;)

From your last paragraph I'm guessing there would be little point in approaching Hi-Fi Answers for a review in the future:eek: Especially as someone with no budget for magazine advertising... A "good but" review, given because although the product is wonderful, a magazine has a living to make... and they don't want to piss off their major advertisers by recommending too highly a rival product from a minnow sized company, would kill a first product from a relatively unknown manufacturer of course...

Hello again. Thank you. Let me correct a few observations.

Hifianswers.com is currently a not-for-profit organisation. It does not accept adverts. Were you to submit a product for review you wouldn’t be pestered / blackmailed by our sales team simply because we don’t have one.

As for the skilfully constructed ‘good-but …’ review style so beloved of some paper mags (it is my perception that the two prominent US paper magazines are less frequent in adopting this), it’s not an approach I condone. It does enormous damage; in some instances more damage than a ‘bad’ review..

Now then, some home truth about hifianswers.com and it’s limited ability – despite considerable enthusiasm – to help..

You’d think, would you not, that with > 16k page impressions per month, thousands of active subscribers (the exact figure is commercially confidential) and > 1.5k active Twitter followers and all this with a £zero marketing budget we would be in ‘pole position’ – or whatever that means in this eccentric industry? That’s the background. It's not a success story going onwards.

So we embarked on the first of a series of reviews starting with two products from Clones Audio. The products were excellent not only in their price band but in ones three times higher – we felt. These two reviews - to date – are among the most popular in our history and between them achieved > 7.7k hits.

http://www.hifianswers.com/2016/07/clones-audio-ap2-giant-killer-preamplifier-test-review-by-neil-mccauley/

A month after these appeared, we talked to the importer to get an idea of how these reviews translated into sales. As far as I’m aware, based on what makers have told me, this is a courtesy not extended by other editors. My guess is that they’d prefer not to know. Anyway ….

The importer was very pleased with the candour, integrity and powerful concluding comments in these reviews and went on to say that these reviews, as best he could tell, had no appreciable impact on sales. In fact he probably sold zero as a consequence. That’s the - albeit illustrative - stark reality.

Hifianswers.com are, we like to think, devoid of self-delusion. So we thought about this outcome and concluded that whatever the reason was for this failure, and it certainly was a failure, that having given it our best shot and not knowing how to do better, that all subsequent reviews were cancelled.

We were a bit bruised and certainly perplexed. The importer was similarly perplexed and generously and sincerely (we believe) felt that a ‘better’ and more effusive review would have appeared insincere. The review he felt properly represented the reality of his products’ capabilities and yet ..... it did nothing other than greatly raise the UK and perhaps elsewhere too raise the brand profile. But, and it's a big, big but, while a raised profile is a key component of generating sales, it is not - in isolation - sufficient to generate sales. Hmm.

So after this invaluable learning experience we decided to revert back to our origins and focus on editorial covering equipment news and music releases and, latterly observations re vintage gear. Unless we can figure out what is needed in a review that can offer practical assistance to small UK audio makers (assuming of course there is an answer) then it is highly unlikely that we’ll be reviewing again.

A long answer to your observations but as you can see, despite our best intentions, history suggests that however good the review might be, either hifianswers.com have attracted the ‘wrong’ audience for this or ….. the public in general are predominantly interested in products with an established history – or both.

I regret that despite wanting to help, currently I have nothing of practical value to offer you.

Sincerely

Neil

[Macca]

Hifianswers.com are, we like to think, devoid of self-delusion. So we thought about this outcome and concluded that whatever the reason was for this failure, and it certainly was a failure, that having given it our best shot and not knowing how to do better, that all subsequent reviews were cancelled.

We were a bit bruised and certainly perplexed. The importer was similarly perplexed and generously and sincerely (we believe) felt that a ‘better’ and more effusive review would have appeared insincere. The review he felt properly represented the reality of his products’ capabilities and yet ..... it did nothing other than greatly raise the UK and perhaps elsewhere too raise the brand profile. But, and it's a big, big but, while a raised profile is a key component of generating sales, it is not - in isolation - sufficient to generate sales. Hmm.

So after this invaluable learning experience we decided to revert back to our origins and focus on editorial covering equipment news and music releases and, latterly observations re vintage gear. Unless we can figure out what is needed in a review that can offer practical assistance to small UK audio makers (assuming of course there is an answer) then it is highly unlikely that we’ll be reviewing again.



An interesting perpective. Must say I had always imagined that the purpose of a review was to educate and inform a potential purchaser about a product and its performance. That is, the review is for the benefit of the customer, not the seller.

In the real world this may not be the case, nevertheless, to judge a review as a failure because it did not generate sales of the product is rather odd. An advertisment that did not generate sales is a failure, but a review is not an advertisment.

Or is it?

[Joe]

In the real world this may not be the case, nevertheless, to judge a review as a failure because it did not generate sales of the product is rather odd. An advertisment that did not generate sales is a failure, but a review is not an advertisment.

Or is it?

I'd say the purpose of a review, from everyone's point of view, is to raise awareness of a product. If a single review, good, bad or indifferent, had no tangible effect, then from the manufacturer's point of view, it's a failure. If none of the reviews have any effect, then the reviews are a failure from the publisher's point of view as well, because eventually manufacturers will stop sending products for review and/or will stop advertising, so the magazine will fold, and the readers will have nothing to read, so it'll be a failure all round.

In the case of the glossy mags, the division between review, advertorial and advertising is already so blurred as to be meaningless; for example HiFi+ now has a regular feature about hifi dealers, which is essentially a free advert for said dealers.

[Beobloke]

An interesting perpective. Must say I had always imagined that the purpose of a review was to educate and inform a potential purchaser about a product and its performance. That is, the review is for the benefit of the customer, not the seller.


At last - SOMEONE gets it!! I do get a bit tired of the endless suggestions that we reviewers are 'telling' people what to buy. No we're not - we're attempting to give a flavour of an item in question and whether the reader might like to evaluate it with their own ears, in order to see if they would like to purchase it. It's not a perfect system, I grant you - knowing the preferences of some of my fellow reviewers I now know that if Reviewer A likes a product, then there's a good chance I'll like it, too. However if Reviewer B raves about something then I'll generally avoid it.(and, no, I'm not mentioning any names! ;))

Oh, and to add another angle to the B&W's and Tannoys pictured earlier - I wouldn't touch the Tannoys with a barge pole in terms of either looks or sound. I love the B&Ws to bits and would happily buy a pair. Unfortunately Mrs. B has approved of them on the sound quality front but vetoed them on looks. :doh:

[Reffc]

At last - SOMEONE gets it!! I do get a bit tired of the endless suggestions that we reviewers are 'telling' people what to buy. No we're not - we're attempting to give a flavour of an item in question and whether the reader might like to evaluate it with their own ears, in order to see if they would like to purchase it. It's not a perfect system, I grant you - knowing the preferences of some of my fellow reviewers I now know that if Reviewer A likes a product, then there's a good chance I'll like it, too. However if Reviewer B raves about something then I'll generally avoid it.(and, no, I'm not mentioning any names! ;))

Oh, and to add another angle to the B&W's and Tannoys pictured earlier - I wouldn't touch the Tannoys with a barge pole in terms of either looks or sound. I love the B&Ws to bits and would happily buy a pair. Unfortunately Mrs. B has approved of them on the sound quality front but vetoed them on looks. :doh:

A woman of taste then :ner:

The "Tannoys" pictured earlier are not Tannoys Adam, and you wont know how they sound because you haven't actually heard them, but I take your point RE vintage Tannoys. They share a drive unit in common with vintage Tannoys, but sonically, that's where the similarity ends. Personally, I don't like vintage Tannoys for their sound. It is compromised on so many levels. At the risk of repeating myself, because otherwise, there's a generalised risk that anyone reading this will equate RFC Canterburys with vintage Tannoys (which is NOT the case) and that could be damaging from my perspective, these are re-worked drive units using up-rated voice coils, new suspension and surrounds, a cabinet that looks like the old corner cabs, BUT is so far removed in both structural design, construction and tuning as to be a very different beast. Add to that completely re-workd (and much improved) crossover design and ....well, you get the picture. If you'd ever like to hear them and then say you don't like how they sound, I'd be fine with that but being honest, I would be very surprised if that were the case. The invitation stands.

Lets have a look without the covers...

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/RFC%20Canterbury%20Speakers/IMG_0831_zpsgsgp1wyw.jpg

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/RFC%20Canterbury%20Speakers/IMG_0828_zpsjtukasx5.jpg

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/RFC%20Canterbury%20Speakers/IMG_0554_zpsqx2p1m77.jpg

[Neil McCauley]

An interesting perpective. Must say I had always imagined that the purpose of a review was to educate and inform a potential purchaser about a product and its performance. That is, the review is for the benefit of the customer, not the seller.

In the real world this may not be the case, nevertheless, to judge a review as a failure because it did not generate sales of the product is rather odd. An advertisment that did not generate sales is a failure, but a review is not an advertisment.

Or is it?

Of course this is a question of perspective. The reality as I have observed it is that a review is perceived as a panacea, a 'silver bullet' if you will to generate something; anything of value. Until the late 90s as best i can judge, when equipment was far less of commodity than it is today, the review was primarily as you say 'for the benefit of the customer.'

However, the cold and harsh reality of HiFi retailing in the past few years has to some extent marginalised this.

Although from your perspective (and understandably so) it might seem odd that a review could be perceived as a failure, from the perspective of three interested parties – maker, distributor and retailer it certainly is just that – a failure – if sales do not result as a direct consequence. Why else would they bother?

Re your final observation, my take on this is yes, these days a review is most certainly an advert albeit under semi-transparent camouflage. Which in turn suggests the question along the following lines: ‘In 2016, what is the practical purpose of a review?’

I'll give it some thought and if I believe I have anything more to contribute (I’m not confident I do though) then I will return here – maybe. Meanwhile, thank you.

[Neil McCauley]

I'd say the purpose of a review, from everyone's point of view, is to raise awareness of a product. If a single review, good, bad or indifferent, had no tangible effect, then from the manufacturer's point of view, it's a failure. If none of the reviews have any effect, then the reviews are a failure from the publisher's point of view as well, because eventually manufacturers will stop sending products for review and/or will stop advertising, so the magazine will fold, and the readers will have nothing to read, so it'll be a failure all round.

In the case of the glossy mags, the division between review, advertorial and advertising is already so blurred as to be meaningless; for example HiFi+ now has a regular feature about hifi dealers, which is essentially a free advert for said dealers.

By and large i agree with your observations. This isn't of course the whole story but only because you might not be aware of the chicanery that goes on behind the scenes occasionally.

[Lodgesound]

I have been into hi-fi for the last 45 years and have plenty more views on things hi-fi that are diametrically opposed to most people's view; one of which is that there are no bad recordings, only bad systems and that philosophy plus my views on the vital importance of WAF, have helped me to develop a system that not only sounds great, but looks great and fits into a shared living space with no compromises regarding sound quality.
The fact that I've had to design and build most of it myself to get what I want is interesting.


I can assure you that there are MANY bad recordings the lack of quality being easily assessed on the vast majority of reasonably specified equipment out there.

In my work I regularly hear "master" recordings and some of them leave much to be desired.

[Neil McCauley]

I'd say the purpose of a review, from everyone's point of view, is to raise awareness of a product. If a single review, good, bad or indifferent, had no tangible effect, then from the manufacturer's point of view, it's a failure. If none of the reviews have any effect, then the reviews are a failure from the publisher's point of view as well, because eventually manufacturers will stop sending products for review and/or will stop advertising, so the magazine will fold, and the readers will have nothing to read, so it'll be a failure all round.

In the case of the glossy mags, the division between review, advertorial and advertising is already so blurred as to be meaningless; for example HiFi+ now has a regular feature about hifi dealers, which is essentially a free advert for said dealers.

Hello Joe. I’m not so sure that in the short term at least, manufacturers will stop sending in product for review. Apart from anything else, what viable alternatives do they have currently?

Loathing?

Given the almost – but not quite total – loathing of the retail side in some threads on some fora I find it highly unlikely that even the most incautious maker will attempt to promote either overtly or covertly their products this way.

Those I have spoken to specifically about this feel that the reign of the self-appointed fora ‘police force’ formed to sniff out and then ridicule anyone with the stench of ‘profit’ ('slurp' is, so I'm told, the trending term) about them is, to say the least, discouraging. The occasional bad behaviour which goes way, way beyond ‘fair comment’ by a small number has, if my sources are correct, rendered all fora - including the balanced ones – as being in the context of a potential viable sales conduit utterly irrelevant.

Harmony? i don't see it; not in the short term at least

The idea that makers and fora working in harmony to promote product is - in the short term at least – totally unrealistic I believe. But I’m no soothsayer and I might be wrong about this as I have been previously. Time will tell except that …. time is most assuredly running out for some parties. A great opportunity lost as a consequence of a few Kamikaze members putting their ego, their bile and the agenda above the interests of the vast majority of fair-minded fellow members.

Finally, before moving on if i may, one part of your observation I don’t get. If, as it seems, you are championing the cause of the customer then why might the morality of ‘essentially free advert for dealers’ in the guise of a regular feature be, if I read you correctly, called into question? If such features focus on equipment then per se, the reader is being informed and educated. What’s wrong with that?

Anyway, what’s the answer?

The answer to a situation where it seems there is a growing trend by makers and retailers to (a) question the effectiveness of printed advertising, (b) question the status quo of the impenetrable clique of the print based editors’ caste system of the those who are destined to forever achieve only ‘good …. but’ reviews and (c) the false dawn of industry / enthusiast fora collaboration?

The answer is the e-zine.

This is where retailers bypass the print magazine by engaging directly with their database through in-house produced interactive downloaded bespoke publications. Sevenoaks are already doing this. Some of the bigger makers are now seriously considering this direct approach. I know, because they’ve told me. The e-zine is I believe the biggest threat to the paper based mags and as far as i can determine, they can't see it coming.

The strategy, as I understand it is to, on an ad-hoc basis engage a few of the established and apparently poorly paid reviewers and pay them twice as much per 1000 printed words as they get paid currently. For 2017 I predict that increasing numbers of reviews will appear this way. I haven't formed a view yet if elevating the mediocre pay for reviewers to 'reasonable' will lead in a few cases to undue loyalty to their new paymasters.

[Arkless Electronics]

I have been into hi-fi for the last 45 years and have plenty more views on things hi-fi that are diametrically opposed to most people's view; one of which is that there are no bad recordings, only bad systems and that philosophy plus my views on the vital importance of WAF, have helped me to develop a system that not only sounds great, but looks great and fits into a shared living space with no compromises regarding sound quality.
The fact that I've had to design and build most of it myself to get what I want is interesting.[/QUOTE]


I can assure you that there are MANY bad recordings the lack of quality being easily assessed on the vast majority of reasonably specified equipment out there.

In my work I regularly hear "master" recordings and some of them leave much to be desired.[/QUOTE]

I would go as far as to say that most recordings are poor! Certainly by the time they have been deliberately ruined to make them more acceptable to the Ipod, Radio, boom box using etc average non audiophile listener;)

[Arkless Electronics]

Hello Joe. I’m not so sure that in the short term at least, manufacturers will stop sending in product for review. Apart from anything else, what viable alternatives do they have currently?

Loathing?

Given the almost – but not quite total – loathing of the retail side in some threads on some fora I find it highly unlikely that even the most incautious maker will attempt to promote either overtly or covertly their products this way.

Those I have spoken to specifically about this feel that the reign of the self-appointed fora ‘police force’ formed to sniff out and then ridicule anyone with the stench of ‘profit’ ('slurp' is, so I'm told, the trending term) about them is, to say the least, discouraging. The occasional bad behaviour which goes way, way beyond ‘fair comment’ by a small number has, if my sources are correct, rendered all fora - including the balanced ones – as being in the context of a potential viable sales conduit utterly irrelevant.

Harmony? i don't see it; not in the short term at least

The idea that makers and fora working in harmony to promote product is - in the short term at least – totally unrealistic I believe. But I’m no soothsayer and I might be wrong about this as I have been previously. Time will tell except that …. time is most assuredly running out for some parties. A great opportunity lost as a consequence of a few Kamikaze members putting their ego, their bile and the agenda above the interests of the vast majority of fair-minded fellow members.

Finally, before moving on if i may, one part of your observation I don’t get. If, as it seems, you are championing the cause of the customer then why might the morality of ‘essentially free advert for dealers’ in the guise of a regular feature be, if I read you correctly, called into question? If such features focus on equipment then per se, the reader is being informed and educated. What’s wrong with that?

Anyway, what’s the answer?

The answer to a situation where it seems there is a growing trend by makers and retailers to (a) question the effectiveness of printed advertising, (b) question the status quo of the impenetrable clique of the print based editors’ caste system of the those who are destined to forever achieve only ‘good …. but’ reviews and (c) the false dawn of industry / enthusiast fora collaboration?

The answer is the e-zine.

This is where retailers bypass the print magazine by engaging directly with their database through in-house produced interactive downloaded bespoke publications. Sevenoaks are already doing this. Some of the bigger makers are now seriously considering this direct approach. I know, because they’ve told me. The e-zine is I believe the biggest threat to the paper based mags and as far as i can determine, they can't see it coming.

The strategy, as I understand it is to, on an ad-hoc basis engage a few of the established and apparently poorly paid reviewers and pay them twice as much per 1000 printed words as they get paid currently. For 2017 I predict that increasing numbers of reviews will appear this way. I haven't formed a view yet if elevating the mediocre pay for reviewers to 'reasonable' will lead in a few cases to undue loyalty to their new paymasters.

I completely disagree. I use fora exclusively for promotion and sales of my products and I'm generally happy with it. The main downside is people will be selective in who they will recommend etc based on whether they like you personally, rather than on the quality of the product... a big problem for me as am a very opinionated person and speak my mind, which doesn't always endear me to the population of said fora... c'est la vie.. I'm cool with that:)

I reckon all magazines will die out over the next 10 years or so. Already many/most say they don't bother with them any more now that forums have taken off in such a big way. I haven't bought one for about a decade... The "anointed ones" would always get rave reviews and everything else "good...but" ones and it got boring and predictable.... and I wouldn't touch most of the highest rated products with a bargepole on sound quality grounds.

[Macca]

re the 'good but...' review.

Why is this worse than a panning? Anything I've ever commented on in hi-fi I've been careful to point out the downsides, the drawbacks, the things it doesn't do so well. In my opinion these are the things that matter to people, rather than a page of flowery tosh abotu how wonderful it is.

No hi-fi component is perfect, so tell me what the faults are and let me decide whether I can live with them for the price being asked. Most decent mag reviews tend to do this, even of they play it down a little and require you to read between the lines. Since this is a forum and I do it for fun I'm not suffering any such constraints.

Which is not to say that you can automatically trust a forum review any more than a magazine review, since forum reviews tend to be 'I just bought this' and of course we don't want to think about the not so good aspects of our new purchase so we enthuse a little too much.

WRT 'bad recordings'. I would say Steve is correect, 99% of major label recordings are good enough that they will sound very enjoyable on a good system. They may be mastered too hot, but that isn't the recording and the same recording could be mastered differently should they choose to do so.

There are systems that make a handful of recordings sound awesome and the rest unplayable? Yes. I can't live with that personally.

Most recordings could be better compared to a notional absolute perfection? Yes, of course. And if you work in the recording industry then of course you will have a tendancy to be hyper-critical. The rest of us are not as fussy.

[Joe]

Finally, before moving on if i may, one part of your observation I don’t get. If, as it seems, you are championing the cause of the customer then why might the morality of ‘essentially free advert for dealers’ in the guise of a regular feature be, if I read you correctly, called into question? If such features focus on equipment then per se, the reader is being informed and educated. What’s wrong with that?


I wasn't questioning the 'morality' of it; more the blurring of boundaries. The features in question are uncritical, with the dealers being fed some easy questions, the answers to which are never challenged. For the reader, there is little information to be gleaned from them about the equipment, apart from 'we stock these brands' and several photos of the inside of the shop/dealer's house.

[Arkless Electronics]

re the 'good but...' review.

Why is this worse than a panning? Anything I've ever commented on in hi-fi I've been careful to point out the downsides, the drawbacks, the things it doesn't do so well. In my opinion these are the things that matter to people, rather than a page of flowery tosh abotu how wonderful it is.

No hi-fi component is perfect, so tell me what the faults are and let me decide whether I can live with them for the price being asked. Most decent mag reviews tend to do this, even of they play it down a little and require you to read between the lines. Since this is a forum and I do it for fun I'm not suffering any such constraints.

Which is not to say that you can automatically trust a forum review any more than a magazine review, since forum reviews tend to be 'I just bought this' and of course we don't want to think about the not so good aspects of our new purchase so we enthuse a little too much.

WRT 'bad recordings'. I would say Steve is correect, 99% of major label recordings are good enough that they will sound very enjoyable on a good system. They may be mastered too hot, but that isn't the recording and the same recording could be mastered differently should they choose to do so.

There are systems that make a handful of recordings sound awesome and the rest unplayable? Yes. I can't live with that personally.

Most recordings could be better compared to a notional absolute perfection? Yes, of course. And if you work in the recording industry then of course you will have a tendancy to be hyper-critical. The rest of us are not as fussy.

I assure you I am and I find most recordings inadequate by hi fi standards. Most will sound fine when heard on the radio or in the car on CD etc but playing them on a good hi fi soon shows the truth... Obviously in many cases it is indeed down to the mastering rather than the recording itself but many are very compressed for a start and then some are thin sounding, some bizarrely eq'ed etc. There's even some where the sound of a nightclub type PA limiting and volume "pumping" has been added for effect... or the sound of "vinyl crackling" added for "artistic" reasons :rolleyes:

We audiophiles often have very different requirements from a recording than even the artist him/her self who will sometimes want weird things doing to the sound for their own reasons... I well remember recording a local singer-song writer and trying to get the highest quality most natural sounding recording.. only to be asked by the artist "can't you add fuzz to my vocals and roll all the bass off so it sounds like it's on an old radio".....

I was listening to a vinyl copy of Elvis Costello and the Attractions "This Years Model" a few days ago and was left wondering if they had taken a common cassette ghetto blaster of the day and recorded it straight on to a cassette using the built in mics it was so awful!

[Joe]

WRT 'bad recordings'. I would say Steve is correect, 99% of major label recordings are good enough that they will sound very enjoyable on a good system. They may be mastered too hot, but that isn't the recording and the same recording could be mastered differently should they choose to do so.

I have precisely two recordings that I regard as 'unplayable' in that they are actively unpleasant to listen to (a few others are knackered through being overplayed on crap equipment). Every other recording has sounded better as I've upgraded the system(s).

[Arkless Electronics]

I have precisely two recordings that I regard as 'unplayable' in that they are actively unpleasant to listen to (a few others are knackered through being overplayed on crap equipment). Every other recording has sounded better as I've upgraded the system(s).

I guess most recordings sound pleasant enough to be enjoyable and are good enough to notice a difference when equipment is upgraded but I would say very few have a full bandwidth and little compression. For example if one is familiar with the sound of live drums and bass guitar then the vast majority of recordings are woefully inadequate in that the compression and rolled off low end allows little of the visceral impact etc of these instruments through as it should be IMHO.

If most recordings were so good there wouldn't be just a few well known "demo quality" recordings around, that can get over played at hi fi shows...

[SteveTheShadow]

I can assure you that there are MANY bad recordings the lack of quality being easily assessed on the vast majority of reasonably specified equipment out there.

In my work I regularly hear "master" recordings and some of them leave much to be desired.

I would go as far as to say that most recordings are poor! Certainly by the time they have been deliberately ruined to make them more acceptable to the Ipod, Radio, boom box using etc average non audiophile listener;)

Look Jez
I told you my views are diametrically opposed to the majority of hi-fi enthusiasts and the louder folk shout, the more I know I'm on the right track. I don't need educating on the finer points of audio, or how to be a "discerning listener" or anything else for that matter, so stop using wink emoticon to try to imply that I'm some kind of idiot will you please.

Let me put it this way; if a system sits poised on a knife edge and constantly shows you how "bad" 99% of your recordings are, then it's no bloody use....period. Why the hell would I or anyone else want a system like that?
So now we have two problems with the industry.
1. the gear doesn't fit the living space.
2. it sounds like shite when fed with the recordings that 99% of the punters would want to play.

Not a very promising list of reasons to buy a good system is it!
The industry is completely blind to the reasons it is in terminal decline and simply keeps heading further and further into La-La land. Instead of trying to reinvent itself and build equipment that is reasonably priced and puts the band in your living room without the need for arcane ritual, speakers in the middle of the room, spiky racks and stupid cables, it just feeds the same old same old to an ever shrinking client base.

Oh and whilst I'm at it, I have a very large collection of 256K AAC iTunes downloads, that sound fooking amazing, as do the ripped CDs, and 24/96 downloads I have. I've recently revived my vinyl with a complely reimagined Lenco L75, idler TT built by my son, complete with Mayware Formula IV mk3 donated by a good mate and finished off with an Audio Technica AT44MLb cartridge that tracks everything I throw at it, has zero inner groove distortion and makes even the rattiest Northern Soul 45s sound fantastic.

The industry has a golden opportunity to capture the imaginations of the young people heading up the vinyl revival by selling them recod playing gear that blows their Crossleys into the middle of next week. Get on with it guys!


They need to get their finger out and stop playing boring garbage demo quality recordings at shows too, and start to play some ordinary commercial quality stuff.....unless they are scared to do so of course.

[Arkless Electronics]

Look Jez
I told you my views are diametrically opposed to the majority of hi-fi enthusiasts and the louder folk shout, the more I know I'm on the right track. I don't need educating on the finer points of audio, or how to be a "discerning listener" or anything else for that matter, so stop using wink emoticon to try to imply that I'm some kind of idiot will you please.

Let me put it this way; if a system sits poised on a knife edge and constantly shows you how "bad" 99% of your recordings are, then it's no bloody use....period. Why the hell would I or anyone else want a system like that?
So now we have two problems with the industry.
1. the gear doesn't fit the living space.
2. it sounds like shite when fed with the recordings that 99% of the punters would want to play.

Not a very promising list of reasons to buy a good system is it!
The industry is completely blind to the reasons it is in terminal decline and simply keeps heading further and further into La-La land. Instead of trying to reinvent itself and build equipment that is reasonably priced and puts the band in your living room without the need for arcane ritual, speakers in the middle of the room, spiky racks and stupid cables, it just feeds the same old same old to an ever shrinking client base.

Oh and whilst I'm at it, I have a very large collection of 256K AAC iTunes downloads, that sound fooking amazing, as do the ripped CDs, and 24/96 downloads I have. I've recently revived my vinyl with a complely reimagined Lenco L75, idler TT built by my son, complete with Mayware Formula IV mk3 donated by a good mate and finished off with an Audio Technica ATMLb cartridge that tracks everything I throw at it, has zero inner groove distortion and makes even the rattiest Northern Soul 45s sound fantastic.

The industry has a golden opportunity to capture the imaginations of the young people heading up the vinyl revival by selling them recod playing gear that blows their Crossleys into the middle of next week.


They need to get their finger out and stop playing boring garbage demo quality recordings at shows too, and start to play some ordinary commercial quality stuff.....unless they are scared to do so of course.

What the hell makes you think I'm talking to you???? My remarks are aimed at no one and are my own opinions only. I'm sure we would indeed disagree about virtually everything to do with hi fi and I ain't going to lose sleep over it I assure you;);););)

[SteveTheShadow]

The fact that you quoted me is a bit of a clue I would have thought

I'll leave you with your illusions and I won't waste anymore of your time.

Bye bye :ner:

[simon g]

Neil has hit it on the head. I wonder how many people on the hi-fl fora have bought anything "new" from a British manufacturer in the last 3-4 years. New could be brand new or an ex-demo item from a dealer. I suspect not very many.

On a different forum, I found some challenging responses to my support (solely as a very happy consumer and buyer of NEW equipment) for a UK manufacturer. I enjoyed listening to the items in my system, had great after sales support and would not dream now of making any significant changes. Bizarrely I found that other forum members (many of whom probably bought much of their gear second hand to save money) making derisory comments and suggesting that the price of the equipment was too high.

Personally I think that consumers have to support manufacturers by buying new stuff. If not, then we will all end up with no UK hi-fi industry and the loss of British jobs and incomes. Otherwise, there's no point in bleating about it, as the inevitable will just happen.

Absolutely agree with this. I always raise a wry smile when various posters on different forums bemoan the closing of hifi dealers, manufacturers, etc, whilst are busy buying second hand kit. How do these people think the industry will support itself? A related point: dems of kit are often important, but many will go get a dem from a dealer then buy secondhand, or pop on the 'net and buy the same bit of kit for 3% less, or whatever.

Having said that, the used market is important for manufacturers, as it is what often supports new sales. The car industry recognises this and is quite effective in supporting/ encouraging the market. I now very rarely buy used kit, as I prefer to benefit from warranties, home dems/trials and support my favoured dealers. Over the past 6 months I have bought (new) a Quad DMP, Primare i32, Elac BS263 and an Arcam UDP411. I could only buy that kit though if I had a used market in to which to sell my old kit. I think the used market is definitely an area that hifi manufacturers would do well to address and encourage. The used market is getting tougher and tougher; this will have quite an effect on new sales.

I think we should be encouraged that there are entrepreneurs around who are prepared to invest heavily in the world of hifi. Without new investment, the industry will just die, sooner or later.

[Macca]

.

Let me put it this way; if a system sits poised on a knife edge and constantly shows you how "bad" 99% of your recordings are, then it's no bloody use....period. Why the hell would I or anyone else want a system like that?



They need to get their finger out and stop playing boring garbage demo quality recordings at shows too, and start to play some ordinary commercial quality stuff.....unless they are scared to do so of course.

Of course they are scared to. When you hear a 12K set of speakers that can't play something with a bit of bass without fluffing it you know something's wrong somewhere. Of course they looked a million dollars...

The recording is what it is. It's what we start with as replay enthusiasts. No-one has a go at Monet because his paintings don't look like photographs. A studio album is no different to any other work of art. A good system will let you appreciate what the artist was trying to do, not try to make everything sound like it was recorded live in one take on a crossed pair.

[SteveTheShadow]

@Macca,

"replay enthusiasts" love it!
You need to copyright that. Brilliant terminology.

[daytona600]

I was listening to a vinyl copy of Elvis Costello and the Attractions "This Years Model" a few days ago and was left wondering if they had taken a common cassette ghetto blaster of the day and recorded it straight on to a cassette using the built in mics it was so awful![/QUOTE]#


Get a decent copy

http://www.hifinews.co.uk/news/article/elvis-costello/7343

[Arkless Electronics]

I'll maybe drag a CD copy for comparison:)

[Neil McCauley]

I wasn't questioning the 'morality' of it; more the blurring of boundaries. The features in question are uncritical, with the dealers being fed some easy questions, the answers to which are never challenged. For the reader, there is little information to be gleaned from them about the equipment, apart from 'we stock these brands' and several photos of the inside of the shop/dealer's house.

Ah ha, yes now I understand what you are driving at and thank you for the clarification. I have to agree and I am happy to do so. Neil.

[Neil McCauley]

I think we should be encouraged that there are entrepreneurs around who are prepared to invest heavily in the world of hifi. Without new investment, the industry will just die, sooner or later.

Ordinarily and predominately looking outside of our industry I would wholeheartedly agree.

However in this industry, where so many wallets have been emptied and dreams crushed through a combination of insufficient working capital, a naive view of the practical realities of marketing and a vision all too often seen through nostalgia, sentimentality and driven by a love of music I would – currently – advise anyone thinking of entering to forget it. Unless ….

Unless they can survive at least 18 months without taking anything i.e. not a single penny out of the business. That’s the first commercial litmus test I would apply. Cash is king. No cash = no viable future. Plain and simple.

Good intentions don’t pay bills. This is both a cliché and true.

For those in doubt, try this simple test. Take any hi-fi magazine from 10 years ago. See how many makers and retailers are still in business today. 10 years is too far out you might say. Fair enough. Try 5 years. You may be as shocked as I've been.

[struth]

there is already too much competition for a very small market in relative terms. One of the reasons that old stuff gets reborn; its a necessity for most who just dont have the cash, but want to sit at least near the top table .. You can get quite close for very little, but to go that final furlong takes lots of money.
Very difficult to get a foot in the door unless you have something others dont, and you are not overly expensive.

[Arkless Electronics]

there is already too much competition for a very small market in relative terms. One of the reasons that old stuff gets reborn; its a necessity for most who just dont have the cash, but want to sit at least near the top table .. You can get quite close for very little, but to go that final furlong takes lots of money.
Very difficult to get a foot in the door unless you have something others dont, and you are not overly expensive.

Well I'll let the SQ and VFM of my products nudge the door open;)

[Marco]

For those in doubt, try this simple test. Take any hi-fi magazine from 10 years ago. See how many makers and retailers are still in business today. 10 years is too far out you might say. Fair enough. Try 5 years. You may be as shocked as I've been.

I don't doubt it, but that's as much to do with makers and retailers not being properly 'in tune' with the demands of the current market, and what most customers want, than anything else. Most of the dealers who eventually went to the wall, did so because their business model was stuck in the 70s, and didn't have the vision and/or desire to change and move with the times.

Snooty attitudes, in some cases, didn't help either, nor did the rather 'elitist vibe', often portrayed by high-end audio in general, when one enters a 'specialist dealership', fit with most normal people who simply wanted a 'nice stereo' with which to play their records or CDs, rather than feeling that they were joining some form of 'religious cult' :rolleyes:

Furthermore, when your ageing customer base dies or moves onto other things, and you've nothing else left to fall back on, as a result of steadfastly refusing to move with the times, by shunning technology and what younger people want, which so many crusty-old 'traditional' 2-channel hi-fi shops were (some still are) guilty of, you've pretty much nailed down your own coffin...

In my experience, aside from the things you mention, which are valid, certainly in terms of cash flow, of primary importance for ANY business to succeed is understanding your target market and having the wherewithal to 'service' it. You have to get that business model right from the very beginning.

Do that well, whilst keeping overheads low, and you'll be a long way towards succeeding in the long term. It's no-coincidence that the retailers who are left have succeeded in that respect, and most importantly have grasped the demands of their target market, and how to sell audio equipment successfully in the 21st century - and unfortunately that involves embracing new concepts, and understanding and predicting trends, as much as anything else!

Running any hi-fi retail business successfully these days, or being a manufacturer, can't simply revolve around notions of 'sound quality', as that's only going to attract the diehards - and in the UK there simply aren't enough of those left to keep a reasonable roof over your head: you have to think outside the box and have a fundamental understanding of what makes people today 'tick', then supply on that basis. And that's the hard bit!

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Simon,


Absolutely agree with this. I always raise a wry smile when various posters on different forums bemoan the closing of hifi dealers, manufacturers, etc, whilst are busy buying second hand kit. How do these people think the industry will support itself?

Perhaps by producing more of what people *actually* want, rather than simply what is relatively simple and cheap to make? ;)

I totally understand and agree with what you're saying, and support your sentiments, but the fact is people buy the equipment that most suits their needs, whether that is based on price or performance, looks, brand name, or a combination of all of that - and if currently produced equipment doesn't tick all, or the most important of those boxes, than why would any potential buyer cut their nose off to spite their face?

Do you honestly think folk are going to think: nah I'll not bother buying those Tannoy Monitor Golds, as much as I love them, because that won't help the hi-fi industry? Get real! :eyebrows:

At the end of the day, you buy what most suits your needs and pocket. That is the (selfish) cold reality. Too much audio equipment produced today is churned out merely to achieve mediocrity or look 'impressive', rather than be genuinely special - and that's my biggest problem with it.

Therefore, I'm particularly guilty of not buying much new, but not because of any aversion to such, simply because most of what's produced today doesn't interest me or satisfy my selection criteria. It's a fact, based on experience, that the best vintage equipment often outperforms its modern counterparts, on both sound and build quality, therefore perhaps if today's manufacturers did something to address that, people like me would be more inclined to buy new?

I can assure you that I don't run a Sony CDP and DAC combination, from 1987, or a pair of 1960s Lockwood Majors, as a result of suffering from rose-tinted nostalgia!

Therefore, as much as what you say about buying new to keep things going is correct, there has to be a viable incentive in the first place for buyers to do that, and for me that involves sonic standards being considerably improved in many areas, so that when one is attending a hi-fi show, supposedly showcasing the best of what is produced today, and listening to systems assembled from such equipment (often costing house prices), one is utterly blown away by the sound, instead of thinking 'meh'; I get far better at home from my old Tannoys and 1950s-based valve amp.....

Do that, and discerning enthusiasts like me, with a not inconsiderable amount of disposable income, might change tact. It's no use everyone bemoaning the downfall of the hi-fi industry, UK or otherwise, without having a realistic insight into exactly *why* that has happened!

Food for thought, perhaps? :)

Marco.

[SteveTheShadow]

@ Marco

+1 to both posts.

[Marco]

I should add that I have no time whatsoever for 'tyre-kickers' and time wasters. If you utilise the expertise of someone in a shop, and they invest time on you, then you should always reward them with a sale, regardless of the fact that you can buy the same item(s) elsewhere for less!

Marco.

[SteveTheShadow]

Well yes I would agree with that.
My take would be, If you don't want to buy from a shop, don't go to one. There are plenty of sources other than shops you can go to these days. Don't use a dealer to audition gear then go and buy online, it's taking the piss and morally questionable. I'm not a big fan of dealers myself, but I would never do something like that to one of them.

I think the industry in this country will shrink back to artisan followers of the "shedworking" movement, selling hand-crafted items. The backlash against globalisation and corporatism is going to come sooner or later.

[Marco]

Well yes I would agree with that.
My take would be, If you don't want to buy from a shop, don't go to one. There are plenty of sources other than shops you can go to these days. Don't use a dealer to audition gear then go and buy online, it's taking the piss and morally questionable. I'm not a big fan of dealers myself, but I would never do something like that to one of them.


Yup, same here. I would never dream of doing that. I also tend to reward good service and buy from people I like/respect, so if necessary will travel considerable distances to somewhere specific, in order to enjoy that experience, even if it ends up costing me more!

And yes, you're right, these days there's a thing called 'the Internet', with endless amounts of useful information, so do some research yourself about whatever product(s) you're interested in buying, instead of sucking dealers dry in that way, and giving them nothing in return.

Quite frankly, that's scumbag behaviour, and the sign of someone with no class!

Marco.

[Lodgesound]

Here here to that Marco........I worked in HiFi retail in the 80's for a while so know what you are talking about.

One of our major points when someone was interested - no matter what time of day - was "Do you want it today?"

That closed more sales than anything really - the fact that they could have what they wanted when they wanted it which of course was usually that day.

We would deliver and install that day if we could regardless - sometimes going quite late into the night.

[Arkless Electronics]

Well yes I would agree with that.
My take would be, If you don't want to buy from a shop, don't go to one. There are plenty of sources other than shops you can go to these days. Don't use a dealer to audition gear then go and buy online, it's taking the piss and morally questionable. I'm not a big fan of dealers myself, but I would never do something like that to one of them.

I think the industry in this country will shrink back to artisan followers of the "shedworking" movement, selling hand-crafted items. The backlash against globalisation and corporatism is going to come sooner or later.

I do hope so!

[Reffc]

There are a few points being completely missed here.

The generalisms about how many businesses have gone out of business in the past decade or so are true, but so is the truism that more have entered the arena in more difficult times.

In the UK, precisely because of the world market changes, many have scaled their operations accordingly, used unconventional business plans and made their niches very successfully and they continue to thrive. The UK is blessed with many such examples, not just of manufacturers, but of service specialists. Just off the top of my head, I can name a fair few which are very successful in their respective fields, including John Palmer, Radford Revival, Longdog Audio, Falcon Acoustics, TRON, NWA and dare I say it, RFC just to name a few (there are many others and my apologies, I haven't missed you by design).

These all have one thing in common. They provide high quality products or services (or both) and with a solid reputation, are not in need of magazine advertising to survive, nor are of the stack em high, sell em cheap variety. You have to find a niche, and be good at that niche in order to survive today. If you don't operate in that niche, then you're just a tiny fish in a massive pond and without substantial marketing budget and know how, won't go anywhere. A majority of new quality hifi sales are siold in the Far East. The UK doesn't figure, hardly at all. We may have close to 70 Million people in the Uk but only a tiny, minute fraction of those people buy quality new hifi from British companies, yet are the first to moan about foreign investment and buy outs. They wouldn't be needed if UK demand was high enough, but the real market in sheer numbers and turnover is, and will remain for some time, the Far East.

Whilst smaller niche companies that rely on the UK market for their survival will continue to exist, in order to exist, they have to be good at what they do and earn a solid reputation. Glossy magazine sales and reviews are largely meaningless due to the circulation figures and online viewing probably eclipses them now. The nature of the review has changed since the 1980s and today, I would agree that the review is little more than an advert for the manufacturer, paid for by magazine advertising subscription and/or wow factor. Few reviews or reviewers provide solid objective balance any more and for those that claim its not needed, poppycock. It needs to be there for balance along with the more touchy-feely aspects and nice photos, all of which help form an impression of a product and all of which are needed to encourage audition. The measurement aspect tells you how something performs and offers a comparison against a benchmark. How it sounds is often (if not always) married to some aspect of the measurement, and can be correlated.

Longer term survival depends on how successful any company is with their chosen business model. Just because a company may be small and not have mega turnover, doesn't mean, in any shape way or form, that their product is somehow inferior, and it really gets up my nose how many in the advertising game seem to put this about because their very existence depends on turnover for profit. Often the reverse is true with many mass produced products being vastly inferior and vastly over-priced! Point is the substance of the components you end up with in your rooms does not depend on how large the manufacturer is or on what their turnover or brand success is. Many larger turnover companies are also turning to direct sales too in order to capture more of the profit as popularity with the end user grows. Falcon is a great example of a British success story. In just a short decade or so, they have successfully geared up and produce new B110 and B139 units, hold the BB licence for the LS3/5a and are barely able to keep up with demand from overseas (again, the UK market counts for nothing this story) because the Far East just can't get enough of their product. Not just for what it is, but for how well it's put together and for how good it sounds. No dealers are involved or needed.

How long before these and other such British success stories are bought out or close up shop? Truth is, that depends entirely on how happy the person running the business is to remain in it, and it has to be said, in the UK, motivation wanes when such companies have to put up with the lack of support, or worse, constant griping and criticism by those who are all too happy to have a go rather than to support. It is harder for those with growing workforces to support as their responsibilities are not just with their own families but with the families of others too. The UK gets the hifi industry that it deserves. That's not meant to be a flippant or negative comment but a reality of where we are. It is also positive because the very models for smaller quality operations that work here simply wouldn't work in the Far East.

The other point, completely missed by everyone it seems, relates to the news about SME. Their takeover is not bad news for the uk at all. They have been bought out by an Indian company who also owns Spendor and Spendor's cabinet making company who also provides cabinets for others. The chap involved has done a service to SME and has done well for Spendor and others. He's one of the good guys. They wont cease to manufacture completely in the UK at all (I'm reliably informed) but the main point here is that it is only one small part of SME that deals with hifi, and they simply do not get the UK sales to make it a viable UK model for a growth business, certainly not enough to support current staffing and overheads.

The mainstay of their business lays not in hifi but as I understand it, with MOD type contracts. The hifi end is a tiny drop in the ocean compared with their other contract work. It was a smart buy out and in fact is good for SME which hopefully wont go the way of some other brands and become essentially a Chinese hifi company with a brand name but with no UK design, company steerage or control.

[Marco]

You have to find a niche, and be good at that niche in order to service today. If you don't operate in that niche, then you're just a tiny fish in a massive pond and without substantial marketing budget and know how, won't go anywhere.


Spot on, Paul! It is indeed an undeniable truism. Some 'boutique manufacturers' should take note....

Incidentally, I was only citing what I believe to be the main reasons behind the relative demise of the UK high-end audio industry, to date, and I stand by that. However, I fully accept, as you say, that a few 'specialist' manufacturers, such as yourself, have succeeded in bucking the trend and are thriving, for reasons given :)

More need to follow that approach, if the situation isn't to get worse in future.


The other point, completely missed by everyone it seems, relates to the news about SME. Their takeover is not bad news for the uk at all. They have been bought out by an Indian company who also owns Spendor and Spendor's cabinet making company who also provides cabinets for others. The chap involved has done a service to SME and has done well for Spendor and others. He's one of the good guys. They wont cease to manufacture completely in the UK at all (I'm reliably informed) but the main point here is that it is only one small part of SME that deals with hifi, and they simply do not get the UK sales to make it a viable UK model for a growth business, certainly not enough to support current staffing and overheads.

The mainstay of their business lays not in hifi but as I understand it, with MOD type contracts. The hifi end is a tiny drop in the ocean compared with their other contract work. It was a smart buy out and in fact is good for SME which hopefully wont go the way of some other brands and become essentially a Chinese hifi company with a brand name but with no UK design, company steerage or control.

Indeed - good point! :thumbsup:

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Stewart,


One of our major points when someone was interested - no matter what time of day - was "Do you want it today?"

That closed more sales than anything really - the fact that they could have what they wanted when they wanted it which of course was usually that day.


Yup, that's a great 'close', and indeed used it many times myself when I was in retail. The trick is to gently lead customers into making a buying decision (listen to their language and identify buying signals), whilst avoiding giving them a reason to say no! ;)


We would deliver and install that day if we could regardless - sometimes going quite late into the night.

Indeed - I can remember returning from setting up systems in houses, many miles from my home at 10 o'clock at night - and I wasn't getting paid for any overtime either... You did it for the love of it!

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

There are a few points being completely missed here.

The generalisms about how many businesses have gone out of business in the past decade or so are true, but so is the truism that more have entered the arena in more difficult times.

In the UK, precisely because of the world market changes, many have scaled their operations accordingly, used unconventional business plans and made their niches very successfully and they continue to thrive. The UK is blessed with many such examples, not just of manufacturers, but of service specialists. Just off the top of my head, I can name a fair few which are very successful in their respective fields, including John Palmer, Radford Revival, Longdog Audio, Falcon Acoustics, TRON, NWA and dare I say it, RFC just to name a few (there are many others and my apologies, I haven't missed you by design).

These all have one thing in common. They provide high quality products or services (or both) and with a solid reputation, are not in need of magazine advertising to survive, nor are of the stack em high, sell em cheap variety. You have to find a niche, and be good at that niche in order to survive today. If you don't operate in that niche, then you're just a tiny fish in a massive pond and without substantial marketing budget and know how, won't go anywhere. A majority of new quality hifi sales are siold in the Far East. The UK doesn't figure, hardly at all. We may have close to 70 Million people in the Uk but only a tiny, minute fraction of those people buy quality new hifi from British companies, yet are the first to moan about foreign investment and buy outs. They wouldn't be needed if UK demand was high enough, but the real market in sheer numbers and turnover is, and will remain for some time, the Far East.

Whilst smaller niche companies that rely on the UK market for their survival will continue to exist, in order to exist, they have to be good at what they do and earn a solid reputation. Glossy magazine sales and reviews are largely meaningless due to the circulation figures and online viewing probably eclipses them now. The nature of the review has changed since the 1980s and today, I would agree that the review is little more than an advert for the manufacturer, paid for by magazine advertising subscription and/or wow factor. Few reviews or reviewers provide solid objective balance any more and for those that claim its not needed, poppycock. It needs to be there for balance along with the more touchy-feely aspects and nice photos, all of which help form an impression of a product and all of which are needed to encourage audition. The measurement aspect tells you how something performs and offers a comparison against a benchmark. How it sounds is often (if not always) married to some aspect of the measurement, and can be correlated.

Longer term survival depends on how successful any company is with their chosen business model. Just because a company may be small and not have mega turnover, doesn't mean, in any shape way or form, that their product is somehow inferior, and it really gets up my nose how many in the advertising game seem to put this about because their very existence depends on turnover for profit. Often the reverse is true with many mass produced products being vastly inferior and vastly over-priced! Point is the substance of the components you end up with in your rooms does not depend on how large the manufacturer is or on what their turnover or brand success is. Many larger turnover companies are also turning to direct sales too in order to capture more of the profit as popularity with the end user grows. Falcon is a great example of a British success story. In just a short decade or so, they have successfully geared up and produce new B110 and B139 units, hold the BB licence for the LS3/5a and are barely able to keep up with demand from overseas (again, the UK market counts for nothing this story) because the Far East just can't get enough of their product. Not just for what it is, but for how well it's put together and for how good it sounds. No dealers are involved or needed.

How long before these and other such British success stories are bought out or close up shop? Truth is, that depends entirely on how happy the person running the business is to remain in it, and it has to be said, in the UK, motivation wanes when such companies have to put up with the lack of support, or worse, constant griping and criticism by those who are all too happy to have a go rather than to support. It is harder for those with growing workforces to support as their responsibilities are not just with their own families but with the families of others too. The UK gets the hifi industry that it deserves. That's not meant to be a flippant or negative comment but a reality of where we are. It is also positive because the very models for smaller quality operations that work here simply wouldn't work in the Far East.

The other point, completely missed by everyone it seems, relates to the news about SME. Their takeover is not bad news for the uk at all. They have been bought out by an Indian company who also owns Spendor and Spendor's cabinet making company who also provides cabinets for others. The chap involved has done a service to SME and has done well for Spendor and others. He's one of the good guys. They wont cease to manufacture completely in the UK at all (I'm reliably informed) but the main point here is that it is only one small part of SME that deals with hifi, and they simply do not get the UK sales to make it a viable UK model for a growth business, certainly not enough to support current staffing and overheads.

The mainstay of their business lays not in hifi but as I understand it, with MOD type contracts. The hifi end is a tiny drop in the ocean compared with their other contract work. It was a smart buy out and in fact is good for SME which hopefully wont go the way of some other brands and become essentially a Chinese hifi company with a brand name but with no UK design, company steerage or control.

Some very good points there Paul!

The niche I hope to fill is to make better performing products than one can buy from dealers at anywhere near the same price... and hopefully a match for products at 3 or 4 times the price often, and each customisable to individual requirements. Try asking eg Naim to build you an amp with a specific number of tape loops or specific types/brands of capacitor or resistor;) Yes I'm still waiting for it to take off but hopefully my new product idea, outlined elsewhere in my trade room, will be the one to do it;)

[StanleyB]

Some very good points there Paul!

The niche I hope to fill is to make better performing products than one can buy from dealers at anywhere near the same price... and hopefully a match for products at 3 or 4 times the price often, and each customisable to individual requirements. Try asking eg Naim to build you an amp with a specific number of tape loops or specific types/brands of capacitor or resistor;) Yes I'm still waiting for it to take off but hopefully my new product idea, outlined elsewhere in my trade room, will be the one to do it;)
I started my business about ten years ago doing exactly that, and it made me debt free in just four years. That's because there were still many older people around who were in a job and wanted to try out the new technology without spending a fortune. But in just a short space of time, many of my early customers are now retired, or even passed away due to old age. Those older ones who are still around are still quite happy with their initial purchase from ten years ago. They are looking after their pension pennies, and why not?
But that leaves the likes of you and me exposed, trying to attract younger buyers who don't want tape loops etc. The world of audio purchases have changed dramatically. The older generation might well be interested in products that you have in mind, but the younger ones are not so much into caps and resistors. They are into the latest buzzword. It was SACD a few years back. Then came DSD. Who knows what's next. In most instances they don't ask about sound quality etc. They automatically assume that the new technology will sound better even if implemented in the cheapest product that it is available in. And it is no use trying to point out the errors in their reasoning. They know far better than us, because they read all about it on Facebook or head-fi.

[Marco]

Precisely Stan, which takes us back to the point I made earlier about most businesses involved in selling 'specialist' audio equipment, of one form or the other, not moving enough with the times, and why the focus for dealers/retailers needs to be about selling products that deliver on other things, some of which you've mentioned, not just the best sound quality.

Quite simply, here in the UK, there aren't enough folks remaining who are into 'performance-based audio', in order to viably sustain numerous business supplying it in the long term, so to survive, you must diversify and have a fundamental understanding of what young(er) people want, say the 25-40 age group, as those are the customers who will replace us 'ageing oldies', who are into the sort of tweakery Jez mentions, and Paul, too.

If you fail to address that, your 'performance-based audio' business will have a rather finite lifespan. I'm afraid that is the cold, harsh reality. You have to accept that the world has significantly changed since we got into hi-fi, and move with that, rather than fight against it - as one thing's for sure, the tide will eventually come in regardless...

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

:)
Hi Simon,



Perhaps by producing more of what people *actually* want, rather than simply what is relatively simple and cheap to make? ;)

I totally understand and agree with what you're saying, and support your sentiments, but the fact is people buy the equipment that most suits their needs, whether that is based on price or performance, looks, brand name, or a combination of all of that - and if currently produced equipment doesn't tick all, or the most important of those boxes, than why would any potential buyer cut their nose off to spite their face?

Do you honestly think folk are going to think: nah I'll not bother buying those Tannoy Monitor Golds, as much as I love them, because that won't help the hi-fi industry? Get real! :eyebrows:

At the end of the day, you buy what most suits your needs and pocket. That is the (selfish) cold reality. Too much audio equipment produced today is churned out merely to achieve mediocrity or look 'impressive', rather than be genuinely special - and that's my biggest problem with it.

Therefore, I'm particularly guilty of not buying much new, but not because of any aversion to such, simply because most of what's produced today doesn't interest me or satisfy my selection criteria. It's a fact, based on experience, that the best vintage equipment often outperforms its modern counterparts, on both sound and build quality, therefore perhaps if today's manufacturers did something to address that, people like me would be more inclined to buy new?

I can assure you that I don't run a Sony CDP and DAC combination, from 1987, or a pair of 1960s Lockwood Majors, as a result of suffering from rose-tinted nostalgia!

Therefore, as much as what you say about buying new to keep things going is correct, there has to be a viable incentive in the first place for buyers to do that, and for me that involves sonic standards being considerably improved in many areas, so that when one is attending a hi-fi show, supposedly showcasing the best of what is produced today, and listening to systems assembled from such equipment (often costing house prices), one is utterly blown away by the sound, instead of thinking 'meh'; I get far better at home from my old Tannoys and 1950s-based valve amp.....

Do that, and discerning enthusiasts like me, with a not inconsiderable amount of disposable income, might change tact. It's no use everyone bemoaning the downfall of the hi-fi industry, UK or otherwise, without having a realistic insight into exactly *why* that has happened!

Food for thought, perhaps? :)

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

:)
There are a few points being completely missed here.

The generalisms about how many businesses have gone out of business in the past decade or so are true, but so is the truism that more have entered the arena in more difficult times.

In the UK, precisely because of the world market changes, many have scaled their operations accordingly, used unconventional business plans and made their niches very successfully and they continue to thrive. The UK is blessed with many such examples, not just of manufacturers, but of service specialists. Just off the top of my head, I can name a fair few which are very successful in their respective fields, including John Palmer, Radford Revival, Longdog Audio, Falcon Acoustics, TRON, NWA and dare I say it, RFC just to name a few (there are many others and my apologies, I haven't missed you by design).

These all have one thing in common. They provide high quality products or services (or both) and with a solid reputation, are not in need of magazine advertising to survive, nor are of the stack em high, sell em cheap variety. You have to find a niche, and be good at that niche in order to survive today. If you don't operate in that niche, then you're just a tiny fish in a massive pond and without substantial marketing budget and know how, won't go anywhere. A majority of new quality hifi sales are siold in the Far East. The UK doesn't figure, hardly at all. We may have close to 70 Million people in the Uk but only a tiny, minute fraction of those people buy quality new hifi from British companies, yet are the first to moan about foreign investment and buy outs. They wouldn't be needed if UK demand was high enough, but the real market in sheer numbers and turnover is, and will remain for some time, the Far East.

Whilst smaller niche companies that rely on the UK market for their survival will continue to exist, in order to exist, they have to be good at what they do and earn a solid reputation. Glossy magazine sales and reviews are largely meaningless due to the circulation figures and online viewing probably eclipses them now. The nature of the review has changed since the 1980s and today, I would agree that the review is little more than an advert for the manufacturer, paid for by magazine advertising subscription and/or wow factor. Few reviews or reviewers provide solid objective balance any more and for those that claim its not needed, poppycock. It needs to be there for balance along with the more touchy-feely aspects and nice photos, all of which help form an impression of a product and all of which are needed to encourage audition. The measurement aspect tells you how something performs and offers a comparison against a benchmark. How it sounds is often (if not always) married to some aspect of the measurement, and can be correlated.

Longer term survival depends on how successful any company is with their chosen business model. Just because a company may be small and not have mega turnover, doesn't mean, in any shape way or form, that their product is somehow inferior, and it really gets up my nose how many in the advertising game seem to put this about because their very existence depends on turnover for profit. Often the reverse is true with many mass produced products being vastly inferior and vastly over-priced! Point is the substance of the components you end up with in your rooms does not depend on how large the manufacturer is or on what their turnover or brand success is. Many larger turnover companies are also turning to direct sales too in order to capture more of the profit as popularity with the end user grows. Falcon is a great example of a British success story. In just a short decade or so, they have successfully geared up and produce new B110 and B139 units, hold the BB licence for the LS3/5a and are barely able to keep up with demand from overseas (again, the UK market counts for nothing this story) because the Far East just can't get enough of their product. Not just for what it is, but for how well it's put together and for how good it sounds. No dealers are involved or needed.

How long before these and other such British success stories are bought out or close up shop? Truth is, that depends entirely on how happy the person running the business is to remain in it, and it has to be said, in the UK, motivation wanes when such companies have to put up with the lack of support, or worse, constant griping and criticism by those who are all too happy to have a go rather than to support. It is harder for those with growing workforces to support as their responsibilities are not just with their own families but with the families of others too. The UK gets the hifi industry that it deserves. That's not meant to be a flippant or negative comment but a reality of where we are. It is also positive because the very models for smaller quality operations that work here simply wouldn't work in the Far East.

The other point, completely missed by everyone it seems, relates to the news about SME. Their takeover is not bad news for the uk at all. They have been bought out by an Indian company who also owns Spendor and Spendor's cabinet making company who also provides cabinets for others. The chap involved has done a service to SME and has done well for Spendor and others. He's one of the good guys. They wont cease to manufacture completely in the UK at all (I'm reliably informed) but the main point here is that it is only one small part of SME that deals with hifi, and they simply do not get the UK sales to make it a viable UK model for a growth business, certainly not enough to support current staffing and overheads.

The mainstay of their business lays not in hifi but as I understand it, with MOD type contracts. The hifi end is a tiny drop in the ocean compared with their other contract work. It was a smart buy out and in fact is good for SME which hopefully wont go the way of some other brands and become essentially a Chinese hifi company with a brand name but with no UK design, company steerage or control.

[struth]

As with latest gizmos being the future, this looks like it will do well... its fairly well priced too.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01GAGVIE4/ref=gw_d_JL_L_AuCC_Dopp?pf_rd_r=RWMH0KKX23FSKX0RZ6 E4&pf_rd_p=307f4d27-e1ed-4981-803d-facca6ae9c30

[Arkless Electronics]

There will always be a demand for quality no matter what fads come and go.... In fact as large companies move with the latest fad it could well mean greater opportunities for small companies to fill the gap in the market vacated by them.

Sometimes fads can be unexpectedly fortuitous as well... Vinyl is the in thing at the moment and even featured on TV adverts so being a manufacturer of phono stages (amongst other things) puts me in a good position for some sales to younger vinyl users who want to upgrade:)

[Marco]

Indeed, but I'm not talking about fads though, Jez. I'm talking about all aspects of computer audio, digital amplifiers and such like, which are long-established now and here to stay, and in fact will represent the future.

In that respect, have you considered building, say, a high-performance, sonically optimised, file-based music server or a multi-channel digital amplifier? Even a high-end headphone amplifier, as that's how a lot of folks listen to music these days.

That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about, mate, and if I were running a hi-fi business these days, or manufacturing audio equipment, those are the areas I'd be concentrating on, which can also be produced as 'quality' items, designed to outperform mainstream examples, not just traditional 2-channel gear - that is if you want your business to succeed past the next decade! ;)

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Indeed, but I'm not talking about fads though, Jez. I'm talking about all aspects of computer audio, digital amplifiers and such like, which are long-established now and here to stay, and in fact will represent the future.

In that respect, have you considered building, say, a high-performance, sonically optimised, file-based music server or a multi-channel digital amplifier? Even a high-end headphone amplifier, as that's how a lot of folks listen to music these days.

That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about, mate, and if I were running a hi-fi business these days, or manufacturing audio equipment, those are the areas I'd be concentrating on, which can also be produced as 'quality' items, designed to outperform mainstream examples, not just traditional 2-channel gear - that is if you want your business to succeed past the next decade! ;)

Marco.

I won't be building any digital equipment of any sort at any time. I don't do digital. Period. Nor will I be doing anything but 2 channel audio. A high end headphone amplifier I can do any time and already have a prototype for my own use which I have been using for a couple of years.

As I have said in many threads I am not in this for the money. If I was money motivated I would dump hi fi like it was boiling doggies do dos and do something more likely to make a profit..... virtually anything would be more profitable than hi fi!

I do this because it is what I love doing. Electronics. Electronics of the analogue audio variety to be precise. It's "my calling" in life whether it makes a profit or not. I am "driven" by purely technical motives rather than financial ones. I could have jumped on the cables bandwagon, as so many have done, but as I am certain they make no difference I would never allow myself to make a profit from that or to be a part of propagating their popularity.... even though it would be easy money! The demand for two channel high quality audio will outlive me;)

[Marco]

Yes, but how can you say all that on one hand, and yet on the other, claim poverty, to the extent that you don't know where your next hot meal is coming from, or have the funds to take your cat to the vet, or pay for postage to ship equipment you've built to customers? :hmm:

That don't make sense, mate! Unless you made all that up, which I doubt.

By all means, stick to you principles when it's providing you with a decent living, but when the going is tough (as it is for you now, which you've admitted here on more than one occasion), then you do what you have to do to survive - and that's doesn't mean having to churn out crap or 'snake oil', as everything I mentioned in my last post is every bit as valid as a 'proper' piece of audio equipment, than anything analogue or 2-channel only.

Behaving as you are now is simply confirming the attitude I've outlined, amongst UK audio retailers and manufacturers of being 'dinosaurs', by refusing to move with the times - and I promise you, with the inevitable consequences... You bemoan the fact that no-one's buying your gear, but then you refuse to make what's currently popular and will sell... :doh:

Do you see the dichotomy we have here? And I'm challenging you on this with your best interests at heart, as what you're doing both doesn't make sense and is contrary to what's required to run a successful business in this industry, in the 21st century.

The demand for 2-channel high-quality audio may outlive you, but if you're not earning a viable living producing that, then it makes sense to diversify, even if it's only temporary, simply to get some money in the bank! :)

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Yes, but how can you say all that on one hand, and yet on the other, claim poverty, to the extent that you don't know where your next hot meal is coming from, or have the funds to take your cat to the vet, or pay for postage to ship equipment you've built? :hmm:

That don't make sense, mate! Unless you made all that up, which I doubt.

By all means, stick to you principles when it's providing you with a decent living, but when the going is tough (as it is for you now, which you've admitted here on more than one occasion), then you do what you have to do to survive - and that's doesn't mean having to churn out crap or 'snake oil', as everything I mentioned in my last post is every bit as valid as a 'proper' piece of audio equipment, than anything analogue or 2-channel only.

Behaving as you are now is simply confirming the attitude I've outlined, amongst UK audio retailers and manufacturers of being 'dinosaurs', by refusing to move with the times - and I promise you, with the inevitable consequences... You bemoan the fact that no-one's buying your gear, but then you refuse to make what's currently popular and will sell...

Do you see the dichotomy we have here? And I'm challenging you on this with your best interests at heart, as what you're doing both doesn't make sense and is contrary to what's required to run a successful business in this industry, in the 21st century.

The demand for 2-channel high-quality audio may outlive you, but if you're not earning a viable living producing that, then it makes sense to diversify, even if it's only temporary, simply to get some money in the bank! :)

Marco.

Lets just say I'm eccentric :D Nowt's going to change I assure you. I would jack it in and train as a bricklayer/social worker/whatever before I would go digital or sell cables;)

I have high hopes for this next product, my first "real" product in as much as it's not a one-off or a modified something else. It will be in a very expensive bling case with the Arkless Electronics name on the front and all that:) This I will be pinning everything on and spending virtually all the profits from other presently on-going work in order to "make it so". It will be available ONLY on this forum.... at first anyway. If this doesn't sell like hot cakes then nothing will http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?46556-New-product-poll&p=788535#post788535

[Marco]

Lol - what are you like!

Ok, I'll wait with interest.... When it's ready, don't forget to send that unit to me for a listen, as discussed :)

Marco.

[struth]

Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.

[Arkless Electronics]

Lol - what are you like!

Ok, I'll wait with interest.... When it's ready, don't forget to send that unit to me for a listen, as discussed :)

Marco.

I assume you mean the valve hybrid MC only standalone phono stage? That will be winging it's way to either you or Tom (I may toss a coin!) as soon as I can.
You will also be able to try the unit I have described above and in my trade area as soon as it's ready.

My paradigm with Arkless Electronics is to make the best sounding hi fi in the world at anywhere near the price or even double the price. That's what drives me:eyebrows:

[Arkless Electronics]

Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.

Fine by me (not that I agree). Those who want to do multi channel and digital can have the market to themselves with no threat from me... a huge relief I'm sure to the likes of Sony:lol:

[SteveTheShadow]

There you go:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7181882/jetsetconsole.jpg

Every hip home should have one.

[Marco]

I assume you mean the valve hybrid MC only standalone phono stage? That will be winging it's way to either you or Tom (I may toss a coin!) as soon as I can.
You will also be able to try the unit I have described above and in my trade area as soon as it's ready.


Yes, that's the chappie! :)

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Yes, that's the chappie! :)

Marco.

I thought so. Hopefully either or both of you will be so impressed that you just have to have one of your own in suitably bling casework etc:eyebrows:

[smithie]

funny enough
i thought about building a sort of modern day type of music center,that was a blend of a half decent looking bit of furniture but incorporated decent source/amps and parts,with demountable speakers that could either be used as is on the side of the unit /or detached and mounted elsewhere as and how the room allows....just think...one plug lead,no fancy expensive interconnects/stands etc,and very little speaker wire to torment your souls over,no racks,wire nest that has a life of its own,....mmm,i might still have a go,just a shame my woodwork sucks:lol:

regards
smithie

[smithie]

my little spill was in relation to stevetheshadows post showing a drawing of a modern day take on a music center:D just incase everyone thinks ive lost any more of my marbles:)
just haven't worked out how to attach quotes etc to my posts yet!!:)
regards
smithie

[SLS]

Same thing happened with Dynaudio last year - Chinese purchased from 1970s founder.
Result? Big investment, big engineering team, and a new range of superb Contour speakers, that I heard yesterday, plus other developments in the pipeline.
I would expect this to be good news for SME and its employees.

About half my audio is made in the UK - the mechanical stuff, the other half in China (Quad, Audiolab, Auralic) - the electronic stuff.