View Full Version : Mystery of day to day changes in sound quality.
Arkless Electronics
28-08-2016, 14:52
Inspired by short discussion of just this in another thread after it being brought up by member "OD1" but I thought it demanded further debate...
Anyone else noticed that sound quality seems to change very markedly from day to day? Even when nothing has changed or been adjusted on the system?
I guess it's most likely to be due to changes in psychoacoustics ie the interpretation by the brain of information sent by the ears, and related to mood, stress level, tiredness etc.... or maybe air pressure, temperature and relative humidity come into it!:scratch:
All I know is that over the years I've noticed that a system that has blown you away with it's sound quality and musicality can sound crap... and I mean crap when switched on again the next day or a few days later... or vice versa.. even though nothing has changed with the system itself. To me the difference can be night and day sized as well! Not just a subtle one...
Discuss.
MrRadish
28-08-2016, 15:26
AC mains filtering and regeneration sorted out most of the inconsistencies in my system and it sounds pretty much the same 24/7 now. Before that it varied depending on the time of day and day of the week, quite probably depending on a few key neighbours using specific cheap/foreign/knackered electrical equipment at certain times.
I've noticed it for sure .
Yesss I noticed it to some degree; good one day .. mehhh the next.. In Past systems though.
Current one produces the exact same astonishment thrill ..every time it's turned on, month after month.
It's a very simple (absolute minimal parts count) assembly.. possibly simplicity is a factor ?
walpurgis
28-08-2016, 16:04
On rare occasions I've experienced this, but only slightly I think. I put it down to tiredness at the time.
walpurgis
28-08-2016, 16:07
Just a thought. How does this affect people who's systems are definitely complete shite? :lol:
For me it’s stress. Nothing more and nothing less, just stress.
For example, last night the last record i listened to was The Cure “kiss me kiss me kiss me” and i thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it, but today i’ve been sorting stuff out ready for a house move then took an hour out to put on the same record.
Did it sound the same? No, not even close, not even in the same ballpark. Any effort i made to connect with the music was overshadowed by the thought of packing up and all the associated troubles that come with a house move. I just lost all focus and couldn’t concentrate on anything but that.
The speakers were in the same position, the volume was the same, the only change was my frame of mind.
Some people say music is relaxing, and it is for me, but only if I’m i the right frame of mind to start with.
Edit
That said, after a few cheeky nips of single malt, it's all good now :glug:
Arkless Electronics
28-08-2016, 16:26
It seems to be pretty independent of source I've noticed... I experienced this "system sounds meh for no reason" thing last night and wondered if it would change as time went on and I had a few tinnies and chilled out but no... so I went over to digital with no real improvement:scratch: It just seems to happen now and then...,
I put it down to psychoacoustics myself, if only cos I haven't got a better explanation! Theres all sorts of enzymes, hormones, neural transmitters etc at work in our bodies and brain and maybe the balance of them is out a bit some times as regards the processing of information from the ear by the brain, resulting in the aural "clues and cues" from the hi fi, as to what constitutes soundstaging depth etc, either not being able to "fool" the brain as usual... or alternatively these things not being received as normal on that day?
It could make an interesting psychoacoustics thesis for someone....
Arkless Electronics
28-08-2016, 16:31
For me it’s stress. Nothing more and nothing less, just stress.
For example, last night the last record i listened to was The Cure “kiss me kiss me kiss me” and i thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it, but today i’ve been sorting stuff out ready for a house move then took an hour out to put on the same record.
Did it sound the same? No, not even close, not even in the same ballpark. Any effort i made to connect with the music was overshadowed by the thought of packing up and all the associated troubles that come with a house move. I just lost all focus and couldn’t concentrate on anything but that.
The speakers were in the same position, the volume was the same, the only change was my frame of mind.
Some people say music is relaxing, and it is for me, but only if I’m i the right frame of mind to start with.
Edit
That said, after a few cheeky nips of single malt, it's all good now :glug:
I was a little stressed by the thought of the neighbour coming back and therefore "should I turn it down or not?" ... and had been getting up and down to look out of the window for his car so it could be stress related yes.... it's one theory...
What the fuck are psychoacoustics?
I've got enough on my plate just trying to understand different valves without the concern of whateverthefuckyourtalkingabout :scratch:
*Put's on tin foil hat
:D
Arkless Electronics
28-08-2016, 16:41
Google is your friend;)
topoxforddoc
28-08-2016, 16:43
What the fuck are psychoacoustics?
It's how your surroundings and brain influences how you hear things. The environment and how you feel can alter sensory perception and experience. The classic example (to do with taste rather than hearing) is when wonderful bottle of wine, which tastes great on holiday, but cr*p when you bring a bottle home. The holiday experience, sun, nice scenery, time away form work etc all helps to create a good experience, which enhances how the wine tastes.
Thanks :)
So basically, frame of mind?
Yep there is certainly a change day to day with equipment due to temperature and humidity, speakers don't like hot environments to sound their best and cartridges definitely change.
However the biggest influence is mains supply, we have a magic few hours from 9.00PM onwards as the noise floor drops.
I also think your hearing changes day to day, mine certainly does depending on how much sinus congestion etc I have or ear wax!:)
Finally there is the psychoacoustic effect where the mind perceives music and sound differently depending on mood, drugs and booze!:lol:
Arkless Electronics
28-08-2016, 17:09
Think of how optical illusions can fool the eye.. or not... It's actually not so much the eye but how our brain perceives the information from our eyes and either sees the illusion or just lots of coloured dots. Some people will see the illusion and some may not.. also you may eventually "get" it and then always see it. Sometimes you may be a in a frame of mind where you "get it" straight away and at other times you don't... I'm no "ologist" in whatever it is and this is just ideas but I'm guessing something similar must happen with our ear/brain/environment. Studying this would be one aspect of the subject known as psychoacoustics.. if I'm interpreting it OK!
i get it with my turntable,i spend a few hrs setting it up and get it spot on and sounding sweet as,stick it on a few days later and its like its gone out of alignment,i used to set it up all over again,now i just think,oh well it will be fine again in a few days :)
AC mains filtering and regeneration sorted out most of the inconsistencies in my system and it sounds pretty much the same 24/7 now. Before that it varied depending on the time of day and day of the week, quite probably depending on a few key neighbours using specific cheap/foreign/knackered electrical equipment at certain times.
Yes, I've plainly noticed it and I've always put it down to mains quality.
I suspect if there are a lot of renewables on the grid, solar and wind turbines in particular which are unsynchronous and use inverters there will be a lot more voltage distortion in the incoming electrical supply to the house as well as frequency movement.
Windy day might be a bad sound day!
Audio Al
28-08-2016, 17:52
What days of the week do you clean your ears out ?
My system sounds the same, day in day out. But the choice of what I listen to may not always be a good choice, so I will change it after only a track or two for something better.
A glass of wine or a brandy often helps! ;)
Being in a noisy environment before you start listening can be a cause. I've had that happen to me as I've related before. System 'magically' gets better an hour or so into listening.
Some times I agree it seems inexplicable. I don't think it is mood since I only listen to music when I am in the mood, I don't try to force it. I've not had an inexplicable case of poor sound in a long time now.
If we are talking soundstaging and imaging in terms of good and poor sound that can be due to how much attention you are paying. The brain can help out if you make the effort. Of course you do get some really good systems that just do the holographic thing without you having to pay extra attention. It is just 'there'. But they are few and far between.
Lighting helps too. Or lack of it. I get a better sound in the Winter when it is dark out, curtains shut, lights down low.
walpurgis
28-08-2016, 18:12
i get it with my turntable,i spend a few hrs setting it up and get it spot on and sounding sweet as,stick it on a few days later and its like its gone out of alignment,i used to set it up all over again,now i just think,oh well it will be fine again in a few days :)
Yes. Constant tinkering will get the better of you and gets obsessive. Best to get it more or less right and relax with a beer! :)
The Black Adder
28-08-2016, 18:13
I agree with stress... it really does kill 'the feeling' and that really does impact on how we perceive music. Let's face it, music is emotion.
walpurgis
28-08-2016, 18:15
Have you noticed that you start listening and it sounds great. Then you turn it up more and after a while turn it down back to where it was and it doesn't sound great any more.
Yes. Constant tinkering will get the better of you and gets obsessive. Best to get it more or less right and relax with a beer! :)
that's exactly what i do now geoff,i get the tonearm level and thats good enough for me,fine tuning i do with the counter weight.
Inspired by short discussion of just this in another thread after it being brought up by member "OD1" but I thought it demanded further debate...
Anyone else noticed that sound quality seems to change very markedly from day to day? Even when nothing has changed or been adjusted on the system?
I guess it's most likely to be due to changes in psychoacoustics ie the interpretation by the brain of information sent by the ears, and related to mood, stress level, tiredness etc.... or maybe air pressure, temperature and relative humidity come into it!:scratch:
All I know is that over the years I've noticed that a system that has blown you away with it's sound quality and musicality can sound crap... and I mean crap when switched on again the next day or a few days later... or vice versa.. even though nothing has changed with the system itself. To me the difference can be night and day sized as well! Not just a subtle one...
Discuss.
Easy... You're suffering from a condition known as 'Audiophilia Wuffle-Dust Deficiency'.
Doctor says, plug three of into your system, and one up yo' ass (fat-side first)....
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/eyLT8R.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmeyLT8Rj)
Shorted!! :D :D
Marco.
You no findee funnee? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Simon_LDT
29-08-2016, 06:53
I was a little stressed by the thought of the neighbour coming back and therefore "should I turn it down or not?" ... and had been getting up and down to look out of the window for his car so it could be stress related yes.... it's one theory...
Haha, this is exactly what I do although my seating position is not far from the window so I can just turn and glance out to see if they're back yet. It's not nice because I listen at a moderate volume but the walls are paper thin here. I can hear next door talking and can always hear their TV so I do get paranoid a bit, although so far no complaints or anything.
I'm sure there was a thread on this not too long ago and I really do believe things like stress, tiredness, sinus issues, etc has an effect on how music is heard. I've had days where my ears are just blocked/fatigued from noisy environments (such as work) so when I get home it can have effects on how I hear the music. I find that the best time to play my music critically is on my days off and about 1-2hrs after I've woken up.
Easy... You're suffering from a condition known as 'Audiophilia Wuffle-Dust Deficiency'.
Doctor says, plug three of into your system, and one up yo' ass (fat-side first)....
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/eyLT8R.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmeyLT8Rj)
Shorted!! :D :D
Marco.
well it seems,judging by the comments this does exist,why dont you try it up your arse first marco and report back? :D:D
Lol - sorry, what doesn't exist? Fat-snake mains cables or Audiophilia Wuffle-Dust Deficiency? :D
In terms of the thread topic, I can't say I've ever experienced that myself, certainly not my system sounding amazing one moment, and shit the next. There are times, however, when it sounds marginally better than others, and that's invariably late at night/in the early hours of the morning, when there are viable reasons for that being so [mains/ambient noise levels] :)
Marco.
When asked 'What's your favourite golf course?', Gary Player always said 'This one. I love everything about it'.
The power of positive thinking.
My hifi always sounds good.
Even when switched off :D
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2016, 12:02
Easy... You're suffering from a condition known as 'Audiophilia Wuffle-Dust Deficiency'.
Doctor says, plug three of into your system, and one up yo' ass (fat-side first)....
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/eyLT8R.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmeyLT8Rj)
Shorted!! :D :D
Marco.
I've never felt the need to go to such lengths in my pursuit of audio nirvana personally... It does explain your strange gait at the last NEBO though:ner:
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2016, 12:24
Haha, this is exactly what I do although my seating position is not far from the window so I can just turn and glance out to see if they're back yet. It's not nice because I listen at a moderate volume but the walls are paper thin here. I can hear next door talking and can always hear their TV so I do get paranoid a bit, although so far no complaints or anything.
I'm sure there was a thread on this not too long ago and I really do believe things like stress, tiredness, sinus issues, etc has an effect on how music is heard. I've had days where my ears are just blocked/fatigued from noisy environments (such as work) so when I get home it can have effects on how I hear the music. I find that the best time to play my music critically is on my days off and about 1-2hrs after I've woken up.
It's by far the worst problem I have here with hi fi and playing live music! Thank god my current neighbour under me is moving out soon.... I'm hoping the next inhabitant will be less of a complainer... and not a police officer like the present one!
I've often thought we should have a right to make noise but apparently "their" right to quiet is sacrosanct... Often thought "you want me to turn down my mega expensive hi fi and cease enjoying the masterful work of Hendrix?.... so you can watch X Factor?... F**k off moron!" It rubs the natives up the wrong way though...:D
It's not so bad if they are noisy themselves as "people in glass houses etc...." but this one never makes any noise at all of his own... and I mean never!
Anyone else noticed that sound quality seems to change very markedly from day to day? Even when nothing has changed or been adjusted on the system?
Nope.
100% Analogue
I believe it's a locale thing. When we lived in sunny Luton, the mains was all over the place and at the time, when Vauxhall Motors was in full flow, there really were consistent evenings every week when the stereo sounded lousy. A local pal's expensive active Linn system was the same on these nights (no comments about the overall sound of either system, even on a good day, please). Other so-called 'Top End' systems from decades ago (Naim bolt-up 250 active isobaric), which could sound very good indeed with the wind in the right direction, all seemed to improve after 10-30 or at night, after the news programmes, and even further when transmissions shut down for the night - no 24/7 TV back then. It was a source of frequent discussion back then, so not just my own experience or opinion I think.
All old memories and probably irrelevant today, but with all the noise pollution in our mains, I do think it's valid and separate from 'mood' or physical/emotional 'health.'
P.S. I have the BMU that Macca borrowed. He had a constant noise from it in his locale [edit - I seem to remember, but it looks as if I have this wrong - apologies] and here, it's mostly silent for most of the day. When it does get noticeable is later on in some evenings for some reason and I don't think it's ambient noise masking it either... As for the sound of the stereo changing regularly with nothing else being done, my ears do that all on their own dodamnit, so I can't always notice any obvious external issues these days. Our location on the Suffolk coast seems good for this anyway..
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2016, 13:01
I do not think mains has anything whatsoever to do with it!! In fact I'm certain;) The only thing that could be effected by mains is a TT using a mains synchronous motor.
I put it down entirely to changes in mood, stress levels etc myself.
My mains became a problem with all the factories railway etc around me. It had spikes and a huge variance ... Fitted a regen and its all tamed....sound was immediately better forcall to hear. Dont expect the doubters to agree but it is non the less a fact.
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2016, 13:30
My mains became a problem with all the factories railway etc around me. It had spikes and a huge variance ... Fitted a regen and its all tamed....sound was immediately better forcall to hear. Dont expect the doubters to agree but it is non the less a fact.
As you would expect I disagree and say it is not a fact but wrong...:D
I pay zero attention to mains in my system as it cannot effect sound quality. I 100% disagree with the 90% or so of people who do believe mains effects sound and say you are all wrong and I'm right:ner:
I won't be participating in any further discussion of this particular aspect as it's the old proverbial circular argument and entrenched views etc.
I've never felt the need to go to such lengths in my pursuit of audio nirvana personally... It does explain your strange gait at the last NEBO though:ner:
Strange gait - wossat? :scratch:
Marco.
Ali Tait
29-08-2016, 14:05
Funny walk.
As you would expect I disagree and say it is not a fact but wrong...:D
I pay zero attention to mains in my system as it cannot effect sound quality. I 100% disagree with the 90% or so of people who do believe mains effects sound and say you are all wrong and I'm right:ner:
I won't be participating in any further discussion of this particular aspect as it's the old proverbial circular argument and entrenched views etc.
Excellent, but next time when subjects like this come up, rather than furnish us with the same old dogmatic mantra, as outlined above, just IGNORE it and anything else relating to that which you believe to be wrong, and save yourself (and us) the bother of having to read it and vehemently disagree (thus prolonging, or even instigating, a circular argument)! ;)
In short, revert straight to non-participation in such discussions from the word go, and concentrate your efforts elsewhere. Ta :thumbsup:
Marco.
Funny walk.
Yes, I know, mate. What I don't get is the relevance of that, in terms of the subject matter being discussed.
Marco.
anthonyTD
29-08-2016, 14:09
Hi Jez,
Its a strange one indeed, I too have' of late suffered from a similar problem, infact,just recently I put one of my CD players that I wasnt using up for sale, [hadnt used it in a long time] and the evening before it was being picked up, I put it into my system,and had a listen for a few hours, just to make sure it was all working fine etc.
It sounded very good, and infact my partner agreed, and joked with me and said, havent you got a worse sounding one you would rather sell etc.:eek:
The next evening, I put one of my regular players back in, and sat down for a listen, and guess what, it sounded absolutely dreadful, and no matter what I did, I couldnt work out why it sounded off as it did.It realy made me think about parting with that player, but I know when my system is right, the ones i have hung onto are better, but its been a similar story here now for a while, so like you, and others here, I have no idea of why, or what is causing this, but its very annoying, and severely disturbing my interest in wanting to listen to music on my main system these days.:(
A...
Ali Tait
29-08-2016, 14:18
Yes, I know, mate. What I don't get is the relevance of that, in terms of the subject matter being discussed.
Marco.
In reference to the earlier post about the mains cable up the rear..
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2016, 14:31
Excellent, but next time when subjects like this come up, rather than furnish us with the same old dogmatic mantra, as outlined above, just IGNORE it and anything else relating to that which you believe to be wrong, and save yourself (and us) the bother of having to read it and vehemently disagree (thus prolonging, or even instigating, a circular argument)! ;)
In short, revert straight to non-participation in such discussions from the word go, and concentrate your efforts elsewhere. Ta :thumbsup:
Marco.
Lets get this straight Marco. You are telling me that people with no knowledge of electronics are allowed to talk bollocks on the subject until the cows come home... but, as an electronics engineer, who disagrees with the bollocks, I am not allowed to put my alternative view across????? Is this, to be blunt. what you are saying??
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2016, 14:32
Hi Jez,
Its a strange one indeed, I too have' of late suffered from a similar problem, infact,just recently I put one of my CD players that I wasnt using up for sale, [hadnt used it in a long time] and the evening before it was being picked up, I put it into my system,and had a listen for a few hours, just to make sure it was all working fine etc.
It sounded very good, and infact my partner agreed, and joked with me and said, havent you got a worse sounding one you would rather sell etc.:eek:
The next evening, I put one of my regular players back in, and sat down for a listen, and guess what, it sounded absolutely dreadful, and no matter what I did, I couldnt work out why it sounded off as it did.It realy made me think about parting with that player, but I know when my system is right, the ones i have hung onto are better, but its been a similar story here now for a while, so like you, and others here, I have no idea of why, or what is causing this, but its very annoying, and severely disturbing my interest in wanting to listen to music on my main system these days.:(
A...
It is perplexing but thankfully fairly rare... seems quite random though:scratch:
Lets get this straight Marco. You are telling me that people with no knowledge of electronics are allowed to talk bollocks on the subject until the cows come home... but, as an electronics engineer, who disagrees with the bollocks, I am not allowed to put my alternative view across????? Is this, to be blunt. what you are saying??
Nope, that's not what I'm saying at all. We've been here before, Jez, so you should know the score by now. You're entitled to your views, so feel free to express them, as long as you refrain from denigrating or disparaging others and mine, in the process of expressing yours. Simples.
It's the bit in bold that I have a problem with and won't allow, not the actuality of your views. I trust you can appreciate the difference. The principle is rather like stating that you hate the taste of mushroom soup, and arrogantly telling everyone else that they should hate it too, or dismiss that the tastes exists, even if they can clearly identify the flavour and enjoy it.
So..... Free free to hate the taste of mushroom soup, or deny that there is a taste, but allow others who can taste it, to enjoy it without condescension or ridicule. Ditto with mains-orientated audio debates, replacing the taste of mushroom soup with the sonic effect of mains cables.
And I insist on that!
Marco.
Just dont go saying your right. Everyone else is wrong, or talking bollocksetc. It is your opinion only. My opinion is that when i did it it sounded better to several people,and that was my fact. Your fact is your an engineer, and it cant happen so everyone else it talking rot. I dont care if you dont believe me, and im not saying your talking shit,just that it is only your opinion v others. If people try it with an open mind, then they may, or may not get improvements. Ive not noticed differences when using mains cables but others have, so bully for them. Who am i to say they are wrong?
Exactly Grant. What I want to see more of from Jez, which will prevent folks like you or I getting our backs up, when being rudely and disrespectfully TOLD, in no uncertain terms, that we're 'wrong' is this:
It's absolutely impossible for mains cables to make sonic differences to a hi-fi system, but if others claim to hear them, then good luck to them.
[Note the above is just my example. Jez has not actually written that].
That way he's still expressing his valid opinion, but not simultaneously rudely dismissing the (equally valid) contrary opinions of others.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2016, 14:57
Ok folks lets all chill:) It's a lovely day!
Yes ok, Jez, but please ensure what I've just said sinks in, as I don't want this stuff rearing its ugly head again in future. So when you see the topic of mains cables coming up, or anything else you consider as 'bunkum', take a deep breath, count to 10, and behave as I've just outlined.
Either that, or walk away and say nothing.
Ta! :cool:
Marco.
In reference to the earlier post about the mains cable up the rear..
Ah right - I understand now! :)
Marco.
Sounds like some of you good people could do with this:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?46003-FOR-SALE-PS-Audio-Power-Plant-%A3899&highlight=power+plant
IP.S. I have the BMU that Macca borrowed. He had a constant noise from it in his locale and here, it's mostly silent for most of the day. ..
I don't recall it making any noise save a slight hum when very close to it.
I'll confess to being a bit of a sceptic with the dirty mains explanation. However I know from experience that how the leccy is fed into the system 'can' make an improvement from when I had the magic Belkin mains block. I can't explain that nor could the bloke who tipped me off about it, or the bloke who tipped him off who had discovered it by accident when buying a surge suppressor. But plugging in the CD player and the pre-amp into it massively improved the sound, without any question in my mind or those who heard it.
So clearly there is something at play here not fully understood. And if a distribution block can affect the sound so, presumably, could the mains itself. I just don't get the wild swings Jez describes between awesome and terrible. My system always seems to be the same anytime.
Mines is a bit up n down at the moment, due though to new speaker cable, jumpers and digital cable all running in.
I don't recall it making any noise save a slight hum when very close to it.
I'll confess to being a bit of a sceptic with the dirty mains explanation. However I know from experience that how the leccy is fed into the system 'can' make an improvement from when I had the magic Belkin mains block. I can't explain that nor could the bloke who tipped me off about it, or the bloke who tipped him off who had discovered it by accident when buying a surge suppressor. But plugging in the CD player and the pre-amp into it massively improved the sound, without any question in my mind or those who heard it.
So clearly there is something at play here not fully understood. And if a distribution block can affect the sound so, presumably, could the mains itself. I just don't get the wild swings Jez describes between awesome and terrible. My system always seems to be the same anytime.
link to Belkin mains block please :)
walpurgis
29-08-2016, 17:30
Mines is a bit up n down at the moment, due though to new speaker cable, jumpers and digital cable all running in.
:rolleyes: Honestly! :lolsign:
I don't recall it making any noise save a slight hum when very close to it.
I'll confess to being a bit of a sceptic with the dirty mains explanation. However I know from experience that how the leccy is fed into the system 'can' make an improvement from when I had the magic Belkin mains block. I can't explain that nor could the bloke who tipped me off about it, or the bloke who tipped him off who had discovered it by accident when buying a surge suppressor. But plugging in the CD player and the pre-amp into it massively improved the sound, without any question in my mind or those who heard it.
So clearly there is something at play here not fully understood. And if a distribution block can affect the sound so, presumably, could the mains itself. I just don't get the wild swings Jez describes between awesome and terrible. My system always seems to be the same anytime.
I've edited my post if I got it wrong, or exaggerated what you heard and stated originally - apologies.
Anyone here around long enough to have owned vintage Naim - Marco has for sure - ? The mains transformers of many samples, supposedly of excellent quality, used to sound off like buzz saws back in the day, this varying over the course of a day - I believe they're rather better now. This snarling noise (on the worst of them) was put down to distortion in the mains and it could almost 'talk' to you as it came and went over a period of five minutes or so in bad village locations. The very same item in a different location could be absolutely silent - I had to select my NAP160 out of two samples with adjacent serial numbers back in early 'CB' days. The 'bolt-up' 250 I replaced it with not only sounded lots better to me, it was also quiet and well behaved.
Sorry Jez, I can't be absolutist about this, but back in the past, I seemed to be able to notice this effect with some gear. For me, ferrites on the mains leads were a cheap and possible sticking plaster, but interestingly, the AVI gear I owned was totally immune from this 'effect,' and the PM review of the previous Kelvin Labs gear designed by the same gent may give some clue as to why - possibly...
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/Kelvin%201_zps6w8dojtq.jpg (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/DSJR_photos/media/Kelvin%201_zps6w8dojtq.jpg.html)
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/Kelvin%202_zpsswvqvimi.jpg (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/DSJR_photos/media/Kelvin%202_zpsswvqvimi.jpg.html)
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2016, 17:35
I don't recall it making any noise save a slight hum when very close to it.
I'll confess to being a bit of a sceptic with the dirty mains explanation. However I know from experience that how the leccy is fed into the system 'can' make an improvement from when I had the magic Belkin mains block. I can't explain that nor could the bloke who tipped me off about it, or the bloke who tipped him off who had discovered it by accident when buying a surge suppressor. But plugging in the CD player and the pre-amp into it massively improved the sound, without any question in my mind or those who heard it.
So clearly there is something at play here not fully understood. And if a distribution block can affect the sound so, presumably, could the mains itself. I just don't get the wild swings Jez describes between awesome and terrible. My system always seems to be the same anytime.
It's just now and then.. maybe one night in 3 weeks or so if I was using it every night that it may sound awful... like I say I put it down to me being in the wrong mood or somat even though I don't know it:eek:
Another factor mains believers could think about is that in almost all electronic equipment the mains is in effect only connected in tiny "blips" at the tips of the peaks and troughs of the mains waveform, 100x a second with a full wave rectifier and assuming no input choke... The actual conduction angle will vary with load, size of smoothing capacitors etc but can be as little as.. well... (to explain it to Marco:D) if you imagine one half wave as a tit sticking upwards the mains is only connected for the bit where the nipple is:D
I know I won't convert anyone but I wonder how well known the above is amongst non engineers etc... food for thought?:)
Not really, as it's all 'techy gobbledygook' to me! :ner:
I'd need to understand what you're on about first, before it could become 'food for thought'.... That's why I just keep it simple/stupid and use my lugs, which have served me very well indeed and succeeded in building a system whose sound quality, from day to day, doesn't vary as wildly as yours, sans 'snake oil'! :lol:;)
Marco.
:rolleyes: Honestly! :lolsign:
wondered who'd be first to bite! :)
But...yeah, seriously.
As they say: 'May all your ups and downs be between the sheets'... :D
Marco.
Mines is a bit up n down at the moment, due though to new speaker cable, jumpers and digital cable all running in.
like a whoors drawers eh?:lol:
link to Belkin mains block please :)
They no longer make them. Mine died after several years and I tried to get another with no success. I bought what seemed to be the replacement model but alas, it had no magic. I suppose you cold see if you could find a used one, but I can't remember the model number now. It did come with a big guarantee promising a million dollars of insurance if it failed to stop a spike or surge. Belkin don't seem to do that anymore.
like a whoors drawers eh?:lol:
Wha hey! :)
Any sign of further innuendo in this thread and I'll whip it out immediately..
Blueflash
29-08-2016, 18:48
During the last five years or so, I have suffered from variable sound quality which left me catching my head rather a lot.
Usual thing, sit there for half hour, not really enjoying it, give up for the night.
I decided to research what the professional recording studios use.
Most of the best ones are using Huge 4KVA balanced mains transformers ...
After some conversations and research with the help of Philip Newell`s book, I had a balanced mains transformer made to my own design.
Yes it did help a lot but there was something still not right ???
Then I thought about cables, could they help ? Not really a cable believer but why not research the subject.
Enter about 12M length of SupraLorad to be converted into mains cables, a load of the Furutech mains plugs (nice and chunky).
Better again but still not consistently delivering the best sound but no particular time for it to go off. Even half way through a listening session it would go off again. More head scratching.
Interconnect cables were changed from my solid silver teflon plaited cables to the Vandamme XKE classic mic cable ...
Result, yes the cables made the system sing properly.
Why did the cables work ?
WiFi points. I am surrounded by about 14 routers spraying RFI everywhere, all with high signal strength.
So although many will dismiss cables, it would be a shame if our biases kept us from realising the full potential of our systems and spoiling other peoples efforts in the process.
There is sound scientific evidence about cable effects that can easily demonstrated if you have a scope ... I have seen the fur on the sine wave introduced by my Wifi without an outer 100% shield.
Blueflash
29-08-2016, 18:53
It's just now and then.. maybe one night in 3 weeks or so if I was using it every night that it may sound awful... like I say I put it down to me being in the wrong mood or somat even though I don't know it:eek:
Another factor mains believers could think about is that in almost all electronic equipment the mains is in effect only connected in tiny "blips" at the tips of the peaks and troughs of the mains waveform, 100x a second with a full wave rectifier and assuming no input choke... The actual conduction angle will vary with load, size of smoothing capacitors etc but can be as little as.. well... (to explain it to Marco:D) if you imagine one half wave as a tit sticking upwards the mains is only connected for the bit where the nipple is:D
I know I won't convert anyone but I wonder how well known the above is amongst non engineers etc... food for thought?:)
Which also means that 100 times a second the mains is at 0v and will be ideal for reception of stray RFI ...
During the last five years or so, I have suffered from variable sound quality which left me catching my head rather a lot.
Usual thing, sit there for half hour, not really enjoying it, give up for the night.
I decided to research what the professional recording studios use.
Most of the best ones are using Huge 4KVA balanced mains transformers ...
After some conversations and research with the help of Philip Newell`s book, I had a balanced mains transformer made to my own design.
Yes it did help a lot but there was something still not right ???
Then I thought about cables, could they help ? Not really a cable believer but why not research the subject.
Enter about 12M length of SupraLorad to be converted into mains cables, a load of the Furutech mains plugs (nice and chunky).
Better again but still not consistently delivering the best sound but no particular time for it to go off. Even half way through a listening session it would go off again. More head scratching.
Interconnect cables were changed from my solid silver teflon plaited cables to the Vandamme XKE classic mic cable ...
Result, yes the cables made the system sing properly.
Why did the cables work ?
WiFi points. I am surrounded by about 14 routers spraying RFI everywhere, all with high signal strength.
So although many will dismiss cables, it would be a shame if our biases kept us from realising the full potential of our systems and spoiling other peoples efforts in the process.
There is sound scientific evidence about cable effects that can easily demonstrated if you have a scope ... I have seen the fur on the sine wave introduced by my Wifi without an outer 100% shield.
Interesting post, Alex. Thanks for sharing your experiences, which largely mirror my own (extensive) experimenting in that area :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2016, 19:06
Which also means that 100 times a second the mains is at 0v and will be ideal for reception of stray RFI ...
Really!?:D Do elucidate please...
Interestingly my system has not deviated much in the last few weeks apart from the initial valve warm up but I have noticed that the temperature has been fairly constant 21oC in my house.
Also I have only been using a Decca cartridge during this period which takes no time to acclimatise as it does not have rubber suspension.
Blueflash
29-08-2016, 19:17
Really!?:D Do elucidate please...
Please tell me you are joking ....
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2016, 19:18
Please tell me you are joking ....
I rather thought the same thing but you appear to be serious so please do explain...
Blueflash
29-08-2016, 19:24
I rather thought the same thing but you appear to be serious so please do explain...
Be best if you read Ben Duncan`s book on studio mains supplies and Philip Newell, Recording Studio Design. There are actual experiments you can do to see for yourself.
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2016, 19:30
Be best if you read Ben Duncan`s book on studio mains supplies and Philip Newell, Recording Studio Design. There are actual experiments you can do to see for yourself.
To see mains rfi getting worse as the mains goes through zero Volts? New one on me....
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2016, 19:49
Well just had a neighbour free opportunity to play "Since I've been loving you" Led Zep, on vinyl, at a rather lively level :eyebrows: Feck all wrong with that now! Viscera rearranging bass levels on that:eek:
Very interestingly I noticed that I was playing it loads louder than the point where the other day I was thinking "this just seems nasty... no way would I want to play it louder!"
I started at a similar volume to the other day, at which level it sounded very nice but obviously well in need of turning up a load!:scratch:
Well, going back to your original post, yes I have noticed this sound degradation effect and it happened regardless of my mood. Furthermore, over recent years it became worse and more frequently experienced. Surely this is nowt to do with mood and more about what's happening electrically (fed from mains) into the system.
I have for many years used self constructed screened interconnects.
Introducing an Airlinks BPS really made the difference both in eliminating poor sound and actually enhancing it's performance. By that I mean better control and a very much enjoyable speed up of attack on notes together with an overall sense of greater sound authority. When I first introduced the Airlinks, it ran in total quietness but recently I found it was buzzing in the evening and sound was not so good, so I introduced a DC blocker circuit unit within the Airlinks chassis and that seems to have sorted it (I could measure DC on the mains). Much impressed.
At the moment just loving my system at any time of the day. The addition of the BPS plus the DC blocker has made a major difference, even enhancing overall sound performance. Way to go IMHO.
Good post, Greg. For me, attending appropriately, and there are different ways of doing that, to the 'fuel' that feeds your system (the mains supply) has always been fundamental in allowing the components used to realise their full sonic potential, and in the process minimise those times when your system sounds 'off' - and these days I rarely experience that inconvenience. However, my system generally always sounds its best late at night, or in the early hours of the morning.
That is why, ever since reading Ben Duncan's missives (and the excellent RA booklet, entitled 'The Power and the Glory'), in the late 90s, I've always ensured that any system I've put together has received great attention, in term of how it has taken power from the mains supply, which includes dedicated 'spurs', separate earths, and the carrying out of everything I could to reduce resistance and impedance, particularly *at source*.
Mains leads specifically designed for high-fidelity audio applications (as I prefer to call them) have also always been employed in my system, since I discovered that there were significant sonic gains from doing so, over using what one could call bog-standard 'kettle leads', although undoubtedly the gains achieved in that area paled into almost insignificance compared with those gained from, say, supplying a system with a dedicated earth, and the level of noise reduction that provides, especially in relation to RFI.
I have no doubt too, that a well-designed BMU would improve matters further, and that is something I intend to explore at some point, but for now I take the view of 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' :)
Marco.
Could varying levels of static electricity, or fluctuations in the Earth's magnetic field, have an effect on our systems, or how we perceive sound from day to day ? :scratch:
Just thinking out loud.
Arkless Electronics
30-08-2016, 12:33
Could varying levels of static electricity, or fluctuations in the Earth's magnetic field, have an effect on our systems, or how we perceive sound from day to day ? :scratch:
Just thinking out loud.
Maybe.... It would require research. It's more likely than mains related issues though!
MrRadish
30-08-2016, 12:43
Maybe.... It would require research. It's more likely than mains related issues though!
So fluctuations in the Earth's magnetic field might affect your hi-fi equipment, but mains problems (that recording studios go to lots of effort to resolve) don't have any effect?
Well trolled sir! :lol:
Arkless Electronics
30-08-2016, 12:53
So fluctuations in the Earth's magnetic field might affect your hi-fi equipment, but mains problems (that recording studios go to lots of effort to resolve) don't have any effect?
Well trolled sir! :lol:
Oh I'm deadly serious. I see you are a newcomer here so may not realise I am Chief Foo Fighter by appointment to daftee's:D If we were talking medicine rather than electronics then I'm the doctor saying "no, leeches, drilling holes in the skull to release evil spirits, homoeopathy, healing crystals etc do not work"... It's a dirty job but someone has to do it:D
It's more likely than mains related issues though!
Jez, what effect is the output from a renewable generation source likely to have on equipment power supplies?
They all use inverters to sync with the mains and have awful, choppy wave forms as they attempt to generate a pseudo sine wave, even after harmonic filtering.
On windy days have up to 50% of the grid load in Northern Ireland provided by renewables!
https://www.altestore.com/blog/2015/10/pure-sine-wave-vs-modified-sine-wave-whats-the-difference/
http://www.rroij.com/articles-images/IJAREEIE-2299-g006.gif
We have 38% wind (read inverter supplied) generation at this minute.
Arkless Electronics
30-08-2016, 13:29
We have 38% wind (read inverter supplied) generation at this minute.
The only effects likely to ensue from poor mains waveform fidelity etc are on mains synchronous motors such as those often used in turntables, and in very bad cases in producing mechanical buzzes etc directly from transformers. The latter can be annoying if loud enough and in a quiet enough environment of course! Unlikely to effect sound though.
In a motor powered directly from noisy mains the actual rotation of the motor shaft will be modulated by the mains noise and distortion which will result in extra mechanical noise etc from the motor... not good.
Virtually everything else in a hi fi system converts AC to DC before using the power and this process is pretty much immune from mains issues. Most items will also use voltage regulation which removes all changes in the actual voltage level ie if the mains was varying between 230 and 248 volts it would make no difference whatsoever to the output of lets say a 15V regulator in a pre or CD player. It will stay at precisely 15V as it is designed to.
I could easily design and build a mains regenerator for my own use from surplus parts for very little money but the fact that I choose not to shows the importance I attach to this issue;)
RFI from the mains, from speaker cable and other sources can be an issue and the sensitivity of equipment to this will vary VASTLY between different pieces of kit. One amp may be 1000 times more likely to be effected than another. This has nothing to do with the mains itself or special wires etc though! You could have a fantastic mains regenerator and then pick it up just the same in 20' of cable between it and the hi fi.... speaker leads are more important in this respect as the RFI is going straight into the power amps output.
The fairly sudden ubiquitousness of wi-fi is a major problem here, as are mobile phones, and the RFI can get in through even small gaps in casework etc. Most good quality RF gear for VHF and above is built in boxes with a fixing screw maybe every 1/2" which seems totally OTT until you realise it has nothing to do with the mechanical strength of the box! Fine wire mesh will also be used over ventilation holes etc for the same reason;)
MrRadish
30-08-2016, 13:53
I could easily design and build a mains regenerator for my own use from surplus parts for very little money but the fact that I choose not to shows the importance I attach to this issue;)
I never had much of a problem when living in flats and read somewhere that they usually have a dedicated isolation transformer (I don't know if that's true). It was only when I moved to my current house that I discovered how bad the mains could be. Having said that my parents' house never had any issues either and my system always sounded fantastic there, but that was back before wi-fi (and in the days of analogue mobile phones).
My current house is the only property I've ever had such problems, and it was rewired from scratch when I moved in.
We have 38% wind (read inverter supplied) generation at this minute.
Yes, and it's mostly coming from the North-East of England! ;)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
30-08-2016, 16:22
Yes, and it's mostly coming from the North-East of England! ;)
Marco.
The refreshing wind of truth and sanity to blow away the whiff of BS:ner:
I was thinking more of stagnant fart gas :D
Marco.
There was a very expensive system at the NW show last year that sounded naff but employed an enormous mains regen unit. None of the component parts of the system were in any way bad, in isolation they should all be excellent, but it was really unimpressive at any price ( and I reckon it was about £40K of kit for a single-source system). With the mains out of the equation why did it sound so poor when other, cheaper set-ups in the same hotel with zero mains treatment sounded good?
Earth magnetic field fluctuations would have been a constant for all systems...and I wasn't imagining the boring, bland sound it made.
I think we are a long way from cracking this one. There is something going on that does not appear in the electronics textbooks.
Martin, does "very expensive" mean"very good"? I used to go to lots of hifi shows in the 80s and 90s and the best sounds were usually from those with the modest price tags.
Martin, does "very expensive" mean"very good"? I used to go to lots of hifi shows in the 80s and 90s and the best sounds were usually from those with the modest price tags.
No, I meant that I'd heard the component parts (except the amp) before and they are capable of excellent results. Personally I quite like that you can't just buy your way to success in this hobby, you also have to think about what you are doing and learn from experience. Although loads of money does help of course.
Despite feeding my whole system with a mains regen unit I know my system will sound excellent on a Friday night.
It also sounds great on Sat and Sunday afternoons.
Other days in the week, the evening results aren't as good as the times stated above.
I am unsure whether I have convinced myself this is true, or whether it really is true.
I am, however, convinced this hobby is bullshit. There's more of it flying around than you'd think possible:) Including the crap I write sometimes. Most of us are guilty of it, I think. At least from time to time.
My system sounds best on Sunday evenings, usually at 9.37pm, when I'm resplendent in Spandex.
Marco.
walpurgis
30-08-2016, 20:54
My system sounds best on Sunday evenings, usually at 9.37pm, when I'm resplendent in Spandex.
Marco.
Oh God. A vision too horrific to contemplate! :eek:
Oh God. A vision too horrific to contemplate! :eek:
Worse than that - I know for a fact it's a Spandex 'mankini'. Still it's an improvement over the 'gimp suit'.
Heh-heh... I could send you the images, but I wouldn't like taking the responsibility of corrupting your mind.
Marco.
walpurgis
30-08-2016, 21:14
I wouldn't like taking the responsibility of corrupting your mind.
Marco.
You'd have a job doing that pal. :lol:
Hehehehe.... You sound as if you're as 'twisted' as me! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Yes, and it's mostly coming from the North-East of England! ;)
Marco.
:D:D
The only effects likely to ensue from poor mains waveform fidelity etc are on mains synchronous motors such as those often used in turntables, and in very bad cases in producing mechanical buzzes etc directly from transformers. The latter can be annoying if loud enough and in a quiet enough environment of course! Unlikely to effect sound though.
In a motor powered directly from noisy mains the actual rotation of the motor shaft will be modulated by the mains noise and distortion which will result in extra mechanical noise etc from the motor... not good.
Virtually everything else in a hi fi system converts AC to DC before using the power and this process is pretty much immune from mains issues. Most items will also use voltage regulation which removes all changes in the actual voltage level ie if the mains was varying between 230 and 248 volts it would make no difference whatsoever to the output of lets say a 15V regulator in a pre or CD player. It will stay at precisely 15V as it is designed to.
I could easily design and build a mains regenerator for my own use from surplus parts for very little money but the fact that I choose not to shows the importance I attach to this issue;)
RFI from the mains, from speaker cable and other sources can be an issue and the sensitivity of equipment to this will vary VASTLY between different pieces of kit. One amp may be 1000 times more likely to be effected than another. This has nothing to do with the mains itself or special wires etc though! You could have a fantastic mains regenerator and then pick it up just the same in 20' of cable between it and the hi fi.... speaker leads are more important in this respect as the RFI is going straight into the power amps output.
The fairly sudden ubiquitousness of wi-fi is a major problem here, as are mobile phones, and the RFI can get in through even small gaps in casework etc. Most good quality RF gear for VHF and above is built in boxes with a fixing screw maybe every 1/2" which seems totally OTT until you realise it has nothing to do with the mechanical strength of the box! Fine wire mesh will also be used over ventilation holes etc for the same reason;)
Thanks for your engineering input Jez. This is hopefully getting us closer to the truth on this subject. Since sine wave characteristics are, within reason, possibly not so critical given that we are converting them to DC and then regulating it looks like RFI may well be the main culprit of mains borne sound degradation that many people have seen improve with some form or other of filtration on their mains supplies to equipment.
I use a single phase, 240V industrial filter which is basically an inductor in series in both the live and neutral conductors and a couple of caps across them. I've tried different values and found that as you improve the filtering (larger inductor) you lose dynamics especially on supplies to amplifiers. My current Siemens model is a great all round compromise. This type of design looks like it is merely catching RFI.
All this ties up with what Lukasz Fikus from the Lampizator web site has to say on the issue here http://www.lampizator.eu/AC%20FILTER/SILK/FILTER.HTML
anthonyTD
31-08-2016, 14:48
RFI is indeed a part of the problem, and the reason I use one of my own bespoke Mains filter in part of my system, which by the way' is now being hand built and supplied by Mark Grant, this filter is the latest version of the original I designed and have been using in my own system for well over 10 years now.
However, I am not totaly convinced that it is wholey responsible for the sonic degradation many of us experience from time to time.
Anthony,TD...
The Black Adder
31-08-2016, 15:18
+1 The Mark Grant mains filter is very good indeed.
Power filtering seems as popular pastime in the above
I presume? then that the mains grid in the UK is not as solid as it could be?
Merely curious, as here, in the Pacific Northwest of north america, the power grid is; solid, clean and reliable.
Has been for decades, results of (too?) many massive Hydro Electric dams.
Consequently anxilliarly filtering is low on the average Audio Weenie's Radar.
Although in a few, should be condemned bldgs, internal power can be sketchy.
voltages can vary a lot. its an old system on average and a bit stretched at moment. Also a lot of equipment can be euro and want 230, which ours is supposed to be, but its actually 240 still. I can have as much as 260 at times, and lower than 220 occasionally. the regen I use gives me 230 50 hz steady which then get Belkin filtered and distributed.
Power filtering seems as popular pastime in the above
I presume? then that the mains grid in the UK is not as solid as it could be?
Merely curious, as here, in the Pacific Northwest of north america, the power grid is; solid, clean and reliable.
Has been for decades, results of (too?) many massive Hydro Electric dams.
Consequently anxilliarly filtering is low on the average Audio Weenie's Radar.
Although in a few, should be condemned bldgs, internal power can be sketchy.
So is ours. Powercuts here are very rare and 'brown outs' non existant. In fact the quality of the mains delivered up to the local distribution transformer is very clean and so to is the supply of the mains that enters the house. Voltage may vary region to region, but it is constant to within a volt or two. The mains frequency here is closely monitored by the power distribution authorities, as an indication of the load on the grid, and will be kept to within +/- 0.2Hz at all times with the legal requirement that over a 24 hour period, the number of mains cycles is 24 x 3600 x 50 = 4,320,000 exactly.
The problems that have been discussed are caused either by the consumer themselves (in using switched-mode power supplies, or rectifying power reduction devices that will put DC on the mains), or by other consumers who share the same phase as you. It is this that pollutes the mains quality; and since the source impedance of the mains supply is low, interference generated either by yourself or your neighbour remains undamped and unfiltered. There is much that can be done with the former, but little with the latter.
So is ours. Powercuts here are very rare and 'brown outs' non existant.
Brown outs, eh? There've been a few of those here, the morning after a hot curry! :eyebrows:
Marco.
P.S [Pedant alert] 'Existent' has an 'e' at the end, not an 'a'... ;)
Please consult Tabatha for some after-hours 'homework'.
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