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Ali Tait
19-11-2009, 23:20
It was apparently on the local news that Linn are to cease production of all cd players due to streaming/downloads.Sign of the times I guess.

Marco
19-11-2009, 23:25
Well their DS music servers sound much better than any of their CD players, so I guess it makes sense :)

Marco.

Stratmangler
19-11-2009, 23:31
Linn stopping CDP manufacture was inevitable I feel, especially considering the amount of resource they've spent on developing audio streaming devices.

Chris:)

Ali Tait
19-11-2009, 23:46
Yes that was my thought Chris.

The Vinyl Adventure
19-11-2009, 23:56
... At the risk of repeating myself...

It's a good move in my books, CDs are shit! All easy to scratch etc ... If these big hifi companies make enough effort hopfully the record lables will start releasing hires download in the same way the linn lable does, or even better. If it was possible to download in a veriety of formats at relative prices I'd be most chuffed! 1 album - £5 in mp3, £10 in cd standard flac and £15 for 24/96 where available. Then once you have bought it, the licence is always available to you so you could re download if the data was lost! ... It's the future, I'm telling ya!!

Stratmangler
20-11-2009, 00:01
... At the risk of repeating myself...

It's a good move in my books, CDs are shit! All easy to scratch etc ... If these big hifi companies make enough effort hopfully the record lables will start releasing hires download in the same way the linn lable does, or even better. If it was possible to download in a veriety of formats at relative prices I'd be most chuffed! 1 album - £5 in mp3, £10 in cd standard flac and £15 for 24/96 where available. Then once you have bought it, the licence is always available to you so you could re download if the data was lost! ... It's the future, I'm telling ya!!

I'm certain that I've seen this post elsewhere - deja vu moment methinks.

Chris:eyebrows:

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 00:03
Yeah It was an atempt to drag the convo in to this more apropriate thread! :)

Stratmangler
20-11-2009, 00:07
Yeah It was an atempt to drag the convo in to this more apropriate thread! :)

Point taken.

Chris:)

REM
20-11-2009, 10:00
Hot news, Linn say cd is dead, boy I'll bet Sony/Philips et al are crapping themselves:).
All very well of course and I'm certainly no fan of the bloody things but, what of those Linn customers who bought into cd and spent a small fortune over the last three decades amassing a silver disc based music collection and who wish to continue enjoying same via a (Linn) cdp? Once again Linn Products display their contempt for their past customers, showing only interest in those willing to spend ever more money buying into Linns' vision of the next 'big thing'.
Companies like Linn ignore the legacy cd market at their peril, IMO.

Themis
20-11-2009, 10:10
Linn creates a new line for the CD players : the Kollektor. :lol:

I think that Linn simply understood that it could no longer promote (and sell) CD players AND network players at the same time. And that if they needed a more "coherent" public image of digital actor.

I'm still waiting for the broad-market actors (Sony-Pioneer-Denon etc) to start producing decent network players. It shouldn't take much longer, now.

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 10:47
I think it will suprise a lot of people how quickly cd will be fazed out! It shouldn't be forgoten that no one is asking anybody to replace their music colection, just to rip it on to the computer - the only extra cost be time! I can't see how there is any advantage of a cd player over streamer at all! Whereas vinyl is different thing altogether! I can see the future and it's a system like mine - music streaming and a decent tt if people are that way inclinded
as soon as the big main stream boys get on board and bring out (as dimitri says) decent streamers, you can wave buybuy to cd in a matter of a few years I would have thought! Cd eventually will just be a format of getting the data onto a computer and probably only for the second hand Market!
The only problem with all this is owning the rights to own music, and how that will be controlled... But that's another convo althogether (and one I would stick out of for that matter)

chris@panteg
20-11-2009, 11:06
This may be relevant , or not perhaps ' but i read a small snippet in the paper last week , that some think tank after doing much research , felt that next year DVD will be phased out completely ? .

It matter's not to me weather Linn stop making CD player's as i can't afford them , (don't like them either) in fact i don't have any CD player anyway as i prefer my unidisc spinner, (dvds2700) which plays SACD/DVDAUDIO.

Downloads may be the future but i don't see myself owning a DS player anytime soon , i feel quite resistant to them in fact .

Spectral Morn
20-11-2009, 11:09
Lots of cheap CDs to buy....yipeee.

Frankly I would not put this down to any thing other than a "marketing ploy" on Linn's behalf. Remember their anti CD venom....then low and behold they make CD players.

The thing that annoys me about all this is this shift is based/designed to serve a sizable % of the population who think nothing of stealing music thats digital. First the law abiding people (me) had to deal with copy protection that damaged compatibility and sound, then its compression and loudness, now its a future of no CD players. Maybe these streaming players sound better than Cd players thats possible, but by going down this road you all surrender another layer of independence. You will only be able to get whats on line, hoping that while you down load there is no glitches in/on the net. You will have to back up the contents of your hard drives in case of failure. And at the end of the day you will have nothing to show, no collection..nothing.

This future is not for me....sign me out now.

The only bright note is vinyl is on the rise again.

Edit.....Oh yeah scratched CDs are as a result of owner carelessness, not a flaw in the format. None of my CDs are scratched unless they are S/H.


Regards D S D L

Marco
20-11-2009, 11:16
Hear, hear - I completely agree!! :clap:

As much as I rate music servers and streaming from a sonic point of view, as in conjunction with a top-notch DAC, the sound can be amazing, but it's a rather soulless and 'un-human' way of accessing one's music collection.

Like Neil, I enjoy the 'ritual' of playing records and CDs, and most importantly, having a physical music collection that's actually worth something both in a financial and an emotional sense...

But I can appreciate that not everyone thinks that way :)

Marco.

P.S I agree about scratched CDs, too - I don't have any!

Spectral Morn
20-11-2009, 11:22
Hear, hear - I completely agree!! :clap:

As much as I rate music servers and streaming from a sonic point of view, as in conjunction with a top-notch DAC, the sound can be amazing, but it's a rather soulless and 'un-human' way of accessing one's music collection.

Like Neil, I enjoy the 'ritual' of playing records and CDs, and most importantly having a physical music collection that's actually worth something both in a financial and an emotional sense...

But I can appreciate that not everyone thinks that way :)

Marco.


They're not going to like that :sofa:...those Cybermen/Borg types....assimilate...assimilate----convergence, wire your brain into the net and your soul and humanity will evaporate.


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
20-11-2009, 11:23
Neil,

Lots of cheap CDs to buy....yipeee.

Only up to a point. If all the above is true, then eventually there will be no new music on CD, therefore only the existing CD catalogue can ever get onto the 2nd hand market.
It's all bad, I think - People like to own 'stuff'

Cubeman
20-11-2009, 11:28
I'm still waiting for the broad-market actors (Sony-Pioneer-Denon etc) to start producing decent network players. It shouldn't take much longer, now.

I've got a decent network player for some time now, it's called an Apple Macbook:)

My CD player has been dead and gone since about one and a half years ago, although I still have a DVD player who can also play Cd's...
And since I put an 7520 DAC between it and my amp I don't think I will ever buy a CDP again, sound quality wise.
Still buy Cd's occasionally but then rip them to 32bits Flac and put them in my music library.
Work brilliantly:smoking:

But Cd's may become the new vinyl, only used by a select group of users.
Streaming for the masses and the "old media" for the people looking for something with higher quality.
But then again, I think that Vinyl still tops the CD when it comes to quality listening;)

Spectral Morn
20-11-2009, 11:30
I've got a decent network player for some time now, it's called an Apple Macbook:)

My CD player has been dead and gone since about one and a half years ago, although I still have a DVD player who can also play Cd's...
Still buy Cd's occasionally but then rip them to 32bits Flac and put them in my music library.
Work brilliantly:smoking:

But Cd's may become the new vinyl, only used by a select group of users.
Streaming for the masses and the "old media" for the people looking for something with higher quality.
But then again, I think that Vinyl still tops the CD when it comes to quality listening;)


I agree with that.


Regards D S D L

Barry
20-11-2009, 11:31
Lots of cheap CDs to buy....yipeee.

Frankly I would not put this down to any thing other than a "marketing ploy" on Linn's behalf. Remember their anti CD venom....then low and behold they make CD players.

The thing that annoys me about all this is this shift is based/designed to serve a sizable % of the population who think nothing of stealing music thats digital. First the law abiding people (me) had to deal with copy protection that damaged compatibility and sound, then its compression and loudness, now its a future of no CD players. Maybe these streaming players sound better than CD players thats possible, but by going down this road you all surrender another layer of independence. You will only be able to get whats on line, hoping that while you down load there is no glitches in/on the net. You will have to back up the contents of your hard drives in case of failure. And at the end of the day you will have nothing to show, no collection..nothing.

This future is not for me....sign me out now.

The only bright note is vinyl is on the rise again.

Edit.....Oh yeah scratched CDs are as a result of owner carelessness, not a flaw in the format. None of my CDs are scratched unless they are S/H.


Regards D S D L

I'm inclined to agree Neil,

Despite the sheer volume of records, CDs and DVDs, at least the software is there, mine and immune to corruption and system crashes.

I enjoy the ritual of physically choosing the item to be played, loading it in the player or putting it on the turntable and being able to read the sleeve notes. No doubt the cover art can be downloaded but it's not so convenient as having the sleeve in one's hand.

No, in spite of the elegance of having everything on a hard disc in the cupboard 'under the stairs' serving as a glorified juke box, I just don't trust the technology. Personal computers are reckoned to have a life of only about 10 years.

Regards

Marco
20-11-2009, 11:36
I enjoy the ritual of physically choosing the item to be played, loading it in the player or putting it on the turntable and being able to read the sleeve notes.


Damn right, baby! It's part of the human process of living...

Never mind that, though, I love watching the cartridge and stylus traversing the record whilst I listen to the music played, and even the look and smell of different records :)

Sad? Who cares - at least it's tangible and 'real'!! :ner:

Marco.

Spectral Morn
20-11-2009, 11:36
Neil,


Only up to a point. If all the above is true, then eventually there will be no new music on CD, therefore only the existing CD catalogue can ever get onto the 2nd hand market.
It's all bad, I think - People like to own 'stuff'

Hi Chris

I meant the S/H market of course. However its probably wishful thinking as no doubt (and I know it does happen now) that some collectors items will sell for big amounts.

Its a sad future we face...the death of books, the death of physical media and the death of what makes us human. Imho of course...no doubt we will all get washed away by a tide of digital assimilation, convergence and progress....:doh: They're all crazy you know crazy I tell you....:mental:...ah but itho its we vinyl, valve, cd, reel to reel,cassette, FM listeners, video users who are the crazy ones..I don't think so !;):)



Regards D S D L

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 11:41
i bet you lot said exactly the same when you bought a cd player "its not the same as vinyl - the sleve is too small, i like how tangible a record sleve is" you bunch of materialistic old farts ;)
to a certain extent i agree, i do like stuff, but i prefer convienience! for me listening to music is about the music.. im not that fussed about the prosses of getting up off my ass and having to change a disk/reading sleeve notes etc! i will do it for a different quality of sound, ie vinyl (better???not sure.. i just think different) but i would never play a cd instead of listening to it on my ds... the ds sounds beter than cd (and there really is no question of that)

Marco
20-11-2009, 11:49
to a certain extent i agree, i do like stuff, but i prefer convienience!


That's the thing about the younger generation now - they're all lazy buggers! They will only shift their arse if they absolutely have to!! :ner: ;)

Sez me who's 44; not as young as you, but hardly an 'old fart' :eyebrows:

'Convenience' is fine as long as quality isn't sacrificed by obtaining it.

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 12:01
'Convenience' is fine as long as quality isn't sacrificed by obtaining it.

Marco.

exactly, and in my case its not sacrificed.. its improved!! why would i own a cd player?? i cant think of one single reason! (i would like a rega planet... but thats just coz it looks nice, but now hannah is used to the ds it would never ever get used)

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 12:03
That's the thing about the younger generation now - they're all lazy buggers! They will only shift their arse if they absolutely have to!! :ner: ;)


Marco.

i just had this convo with my "boss" at the shop.. he like tangible things and recons he will live longer for getting up to play his cds
i say i will live longer because i have to work bloody hard to afford this hobby!! i desurve to be able to sit on my ass in the evenings!!

The Grand Wazoo
20-11-2009, 12:09
I meant the S/H market of course.
Regards D S D L

What I mean is, that if no new music is released on CD, then you'll never be able to buy it second hand a few years down the line, so only things released up to now will be available.
It'll suit the record companies, I suppose esp. if they can copyproof digital audio files.

Spectral Morn
20-11-2009, 12:16
What I mean is, that if no new music is released on CD, then you'll never be able to buy it second hand a few years down the line, so only things released up to now will be available.
It'll suit the record companies, I suppose esp. if they can copyproof digital audio files.

Fair point.

That in its self is an issue copy protection on digital downloads, and or limited copying ability.... So I want to make a back up of a copy okay, but a copy then of that copy...is that possible? You will have to keep the original as multiple copies of CDs is not possible; if they are copy protected and most are now.

Regards D S D L

Cubeman
20-11-2009, 12:17
Its a sad future we face...the death of books, the death of physical media and the death of what makes us human. Imho of course...no doubt we will all get washed away by a tide of digital assimilation, convergence and progress....:doh:



Regards D S D L

Here in The Netherlands the word goes that the government put nano chips in the Mexican flue vaccines people are getting right now.
Talk about getting washed away by a tide of digital assimilation:lolsign:

No idea who came up with this ridiculous story:mental:

:)

Marco
20-11-2009, 12:29
They're all good points, Hamish, which I don't disagree with, although I would add that when you own a genuinely top-notch CDP and DAC (which makes the absolute most of CD's capabilities), the desire to 'upgrade' to streaming from a sonic point of view isn't really there, especially when you feel as I do about the 'ritual'/human side of accessing and enjoying your favourite music :)

Here's something else to ponder, though, so consider this:

Having 1000s of 'faceless' music files stored on a computer hard drive can mean that you actually listen to less of your music collection...

How so?

It's often the case (and I know people who this refers to) that you forget half of the albums stored on your hard drive(s) that you've ripped or downloaded because you can't see them (out of sight, out of mind), and thus usually end up playing the most recent music you've got (because you know where it is) and largely ignoring the rest, because of forgetting which folder or hard-drive a particular album has been stored in!

I've seen this happen time and time again at friend's houses, who have many thousands of albums saved on their hard-drives, and it's something that puts me off the whole process because I feel that it can devalue your music collection, and the enjoyment of it thereof.

It's totally different when you can browse rows of alphabetically and genre-categorised records and CDs on shelves, which are in front of your eyes, and thus you know exactly where everything is. It also encourages you more to play older albums which you may not have listened to for ages, thus enjoying the full extent of your collection on a regular basis - the exact opposite, in my experience, of what tends to happen when accessing your music collection is controlled by a computer...

Do you see my point?

Marco.

Themis
20-11-2009, 13:19
But Cd's may become the new vinyl, only used by a select group of users.
Streaming for the masses and the "old media" for the people looking for something with higher quality.
But then again, I think that Vinyl still tops the CD when it comes to quality listening;)
Well, I completely disagree.
There's no "higher quality" about CDs: downloaded music can be 24/96 (or even 24/192) but not CD.
So, at best, the CD can have the same quality as a network server.

There's no comparison about Vinyl and CDs either: Vinyl is what it is and is -sonically- completely different from CD. Even without getting into the "what is better" discussion, everybody agrees taht CD and Vinyl sound differently.That's what makes people continuing buying vinyls, 30 years later.
I can see no way this would happen for CDs, because CDs are no "different" than the FLAC (or ALAC or WMA or whatever) equivalent.
So, the only people who will continue with CDs are people who don't intend changing their habits. It's a good reason, no doubt, and I respect it, but it has nothing to do with a sonic signature.

Themis
20-11-2009, 13:30
It's totally different when you can browse rows of alphabetically and genre-categorised records and CDs on shelves, which are in front of your eyes, and thus you know exactly where everything is. It also encourages you more to play older albums which you may not have listened to for ages, thus enjoying the full extent of your collection on a regular basis - the exact opposite, in my experience, of what tends to happen when accessing your music collection is controlled by a computer...

Do you see my point?

Marco.
Marco, I see very well your point, but I think your image represents more the CD listener who uses a server catalog for the first time (or very occasionally) than the image of a usual network server listener. :)

I think the network server user (me, for instance) approaches his music collection with his brain, rather than with his eyes. I never toggle blindly through my collection trying to find (by reading the group names or titles or anything) what would I like to listen to.
Either I decide in advance what I want to listen to, or I make a severe subset (style+year) and toggle inside.
It's the same like a satellite-tv watcher : it would never come to my mind to toggle through my 200 channels to find what could I watch tonight : I choose a type, then look at my tv programme. Never toogle through channels.

Rare Bird
20-11-2009, 13:39
There time will come & i'll be waiting to laugh ;)

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 13:44
They're all good points, Hamish, which I don't disagree with, although I would add that when you own a genuinely top-notch CDP and DAC (which makes the absolute most of CD's capabilities), the desire to 'upgrade' to streaming from a sonic point of view isn't really there, especially when you feel as I do about the 'ritual'/human side of accessing and enjoying your favourite music :)

Here's something else to ponder, though, so consider this:

Having 1000s of 'faceless' music files stored on a computer hard drive can mean that you actually listen to less of your music collection...

How so?

It's often the case (and I know people who this refers to) that you forget half of the albums stored on your hard drive(s) that you've ripped or downloaded because you can't see them (out of sight, out of mind), and thus usually end up playing the most recent music you've got (because you know where it is) and largely ignoring the rest, because of forgetting which folder or hard-drive a particular album has been stored in!

I've seen this happen time and time again at friend's houses, who have many thousands of albums saved on their hard-drives, and it's something that puts me off the whole process because I feel that it can devalue your music collection, and the enjoyment of it thereof.

It's totally different when you can browse rows of alphabetically and genre-categorised records and CDs on shelves, which are in front of your eyes, and thus you know exactly where everything is. It also encourages you more to play older albums which you may not have listened to for ages, thus enjoying the full extent of your collection on a regular basis - the exact opposite, in my experience, of what tends to happen when accessing your music collection is controlled by a computer...

Do you see my point?

Marco.


that for me is just down to poor gui!
the user interface for most ds players displays the front of the album cover in alphabetical order as aposed to the side! not only have i listened to more of my music since i have had my ds i have actually rediscoverd bands that had got lost in the mass of cds on the shelf.. im sure it isnt for everyone but my experience is almost the exact oposite of yours ... :scratch:

Peter Galbavy
20-11-2009, 13:56
It's totally different when you can browse rows of alphabetically and genre-categorised records and CDs on shelves, which are in front of your eyes, and thus you know exactly where everything is. It also encourages you more to play older albums which you may not have listened to for ages, thus enjoying the full extent of your collection on a regular basis - the exact opposite, in my experience, of what tends to happen when accessing your music collection is controlled by a computer...

Do you see my point?

Marco.

"Ooh! Shiny!"

:lolsign:

Haselsh1
20-11-2009, 14:22
That's the thing about the younger generation now - they're all lazy buggers! They will only shift their arse if they absolutely have to!! :ner: ;)

Sez me who's 44; not as young as you, but hardly an 'old fart' :eyebrows:

'Convenience' is fine as long as quality isn't sacrificed by obtaining it.

Marco.


I think herein lies the problem. Convenience comes at a price and that price is pure quality. I honestly believe that one cannot have both. It's true with Hi-Fi and it's true with photography. A Nottingham Analogue versus a Sony CD player or a Nikon D3 versus a Wista five by four inch field camera. You pay out your money and you make your choice. Purist or convenient...???

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 14:25
Well you know where I stand on that viewpoint shaun...
Personally I'd like one of the new hasselblad full colour 50mp cameras ... But that's out of the question financially!!
This reminds me actually shaun I have a proposition for you! Il pm now!

Themis
20-11-2009, 14:38
C'mon guys : I remember whan I was young I played my vinyls on some cheapo deck which destroyed the records after four-five listenings. I don't even mention the quality of the portable cassette players.
Deezer (AAC 128k) or iPod is far better in quality than what I was used to listen to when I was 14.

I mean, we've all been young: were you audiophiles at 15 ?

Appreciating reproduction quality needs education : let these young grow up ! ;)

Marco
20-11-2009, 14:48
that for me is just down to poor gui!
the user interface for most ds players displays the front of the album cover in alphabetical order as aposed to the side! not only have i listened to more of my music since i have had my ds i have actually rediscoverd bands that had got lost in the mass of cds on the shelf.. im sure it isnt for everyone but my experience is almost the exact oposite of yours ... :scratch:

It obviously is, Hamish, and that's fine :)

However, I'm also speaking from experience and quoting exactly what's happened when round at friends' houses with music server set-ups (although theirs don't have the convenience of the Linn DS features), so it does happen, and they've had these set-ups for years, too! ;)

My view is that although I can see the attraction of streaming and music servers, in general, I couldn't be arsed with them. Furthermore, I hate computers with a passion and only use them when I really need to, so the thought of having to use one every time I want to play music does not fill me with joy (!) - that's just me :cool:

Marco.

Themis
20-11-2009, 14:51
plus I hate computers with a passion and only use them when I really need to - that's just the way I am :cool:

Marco.
Well, you use a computer for the forums, don't you ? ;)

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 14:52
Computers... The one major downfall of computer based audio !! I will happily give you that one! I need a nas drive!

Rare Bird
20-11-2009, 14:54
My view is that although I can see the attraction of streaming and music servers, in general, I couldn't be arsed with it; plus I hate computers with a passion and only use them when I really need to - that's just the way I am :cool:

Marco.

Stuck in yer ways eh ;) I hate computers also but can't keep off em..I was put off by music via pooter till i was introduced to certain aspects of it, i was excited by some results i got that could never be possible by regular hifi set up..I also feel that you can get pretty much the same results you can from gear that costs the earth for beer money..Of course i don't expect the die hard hifi guy to entertain all this for on min cos there stuck in da old ways, but like it or not this is how it's to be.

trailer
20-11-2009, 14:54
I blame Stan.

Since I jumped onto the Beresford bandwagon I've been buying CD's, ripping and streaming.

The funny thing is that I've been buying MORE CD's now since.

Rare Bird
20-11-2009, 14:57
Can i just add that their is a lot off muppetts that do computer Ripping/steaming wrong & get medicore results hence negative reviews of their findings.

Marco
20-11-2009, 15:00
Hi Dimitri,


C'mon guys : I remember whan I was young I played my vinyls on some cheapo deck which destroyed the records after four-five listenings. I don't even mention the quality of the portable cassette players.
Deezer (AAC 128k) or iPod is far better in quality than what I was used to listen to when I was 14.


I only started listening to music seriously when I was 15, up until then like you I played 'silly' music on a mono cassette deck, and also an old Dansette record player belonging to my parents.

However, by the time I was 17, I was buying records regularly and playing them on an Ariston RD11S turntable, and tapes on both a Nakamichi BX-125, and a little later, a Sony Walkman Pro - all three of which would wipe the floor, sonically, with an iPod! :eyebrows:

I guess that I had discerning ears from an early age ;)

Marco.

Marco
20-11-2009, 15:08
Stuck in yer ways eh ;) I hate computers also but can't keep off em..I was put off by music via pooter till i was introduced to certain aspects of it, i was excited by some results i got that could never be possible by regular hifi set up..I also feel that you can get pretty much the same results you can from gear that costs the earth for beer money..Of course i don't expect the die hard hifi guy to entertain all this for on min cos there stuck in da old ways, but like it or not this is how it's to be.

Not at all, Andre - it's got absolutely nothing to do with being "stuck in my ways"; it's simply what I prefer and enjoy most. Why should I do something else if I know that I wouldn't enjoy it as much just to be 'fashionable'? Trust me, if a streaming set-up was something that I thought would definitely enhance my enjoyment of music, I'd have one by now!

The difference between you and me is that I've yet to hear any music server set-up which sonically outperforms my turntable or CDP/DAC. I'm not saying that there isn't something out there that would; just that I haven't heard it yet :)

And with regard to "this is how it's to be" - who says so? The shops are still full of CDs, as are numerous sites on-line, which I'm certain will be the case for the foreseeable future, and available vinyl to buy is also on the up, both new and second-hand. The fact is, there's no shortage of music on either format.

Therefore, "how it's to be" in terms of my system and how I like listening to music, will be decided by me, not technology, for a long time yet! :ner:

Marco.

Themis
20-11-2009, 17:20
Hi Dimitri,



I only started listening to music seriously when I was 15, up until then like you I played 'silly' music on a mono cassette deck, and also an old Dansette record player belonging to my parents.

However, by the time I was 17, I was buying records regularly and playing them on an Ariston RD11S turntable, and tapes on both a Nakamichi BX-125, and a little later, a Sony Walkman Pro - all three of which would wipe the floor, sonically, with an iPod! :eyebrows:

I guess that I had discerning ears from an early age ;)

Marco.
Marco, what I'm trying to say (in a clumsy way, perhaps) is that audiophiles are a minority, there are still less before the age of 18-20, and almost nobody under 15. It has always been that way.
So, in a phrase like "youngsters nowadays this or that" the word "nowadays" is not accurate in an audiophile context.
And "quality" is NOT sacrificed in "convenience" in the digital world. ;)

Marco
20-11-2009, 17:27
Hi Dimitri,

I get what you're saying and I don't disagree.


And "quality" is NOT sacrificed in "convenience" in the digital world.


Well, if we're talking about quality music servers vs. quality CD players, then no; however if we're talking about MP3 and iPods, then I'd say categorically 'yes!' :)

I still don't own an iPod because I think they're shit. If on the rare occasion I'm 'on the move' and not in my car, and want to listen to some music, I use my Sony Walkman Pro tape recorder (yes it's still working wonderfully!) and a full-sized pair of headphones (using chrome or metal tapes recorded from my SL-1210 or Sony CDP, on my Nakamichi CR-7), to get decent 'portable' sound quality ;)

I will not compromise on quality with anything in life, not just hi-fi and music, if I can possibly help it!

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 17:28
And "quality" is NOT sacrificed in "convenience" in the digital world. ;)

im not sure why this point is so difficult to get accros to people, it is infact the most important point of all of this! the only thing that is sacrificed is the tangeble, and that is a personal thing for individuals to decide on

Themis
20-11-2009, 17:37
Hi Dimitri,

I get what you're saying and I don't disagree.



Well, if we're talking about quality music servers vs. quality CD players, then no; however if we're talking about MP3 and iPods, then I'd say categorically 'yes!' :)

I still don't own an iPod because I think they're shit. If on the rare occasion I'm 'on the move' and not in my car, and want to listen to some music, I use my Sony Walkman Pro tape recorder (yes it's still working wonderfully!) and a full-sized pair of headphones (using chrome or metal tapes recorded from my SL-1210 or Sony CDP, on my Nakamichi CR-7), to get decent 'portable' sound quality ;)

I will not comporomise on quality with anything in life, not just hi-fi and music, if I can possibly help it.

Marco.
Ok, I see you point.
In fact, you have two solutions for iPods without compromising quality :
- You put lossless CD in them
- You put high-quality (400kb/s VBR) MP4 if the recording quality is not pristine.

I assure you, you won't compromise quality like this. But, of course, we're talking about CD quality here. ;)

Marco
20-11-2009, 17:38
Indeed - CD quality. I'm not talking about CD quality, though! ;)

Always remember the title under my name here, after 'Administrator' :eyebrows:

Marco.

trailer
20-11-2009, 17:43
Ok, I see you point.
In fact, you have two solutions for iPods without compromising quality :
- You put lossless CD in them
- You put high-quality (400kb/s VBR) MP4 if the recording quality is not pristine.

I assure you, you won't compromise quality like this. But, of course, we're talking about CD quality here. ;)

The source material, lossless anyway, may not be compromising quality but the playback quality of the iPod undoubtedly will.

Themis
20-11-2009, 17:44
Indeed - CD quality. I'm not talking about CD quality, though! ;)
Yes, but then, I never heard you saying that your Sony CD player was "not of quality"... hehe :lol:

Themis
20-11-2009, 17:46
The source material, lossless anyway, may not be compromising quality but the playback quality of the iPod undoubtedly will.
I can't say the difference between an iPod and a PC/MAC using the same digital output. ;) And, I assure you, I'm fussy when it comes to digital.

trailer
20-11-2009, 17:51
I can't say the difference between an iPod and a PC/MAC using the same digital output. ;) And, I assure you, I'm fussy when it comes to digital.

I heard wav files being played out of an iTouch into Naims new DAC via the USB over the summer at a demo. The same files were played into it from the HDX, admittedly via coax. I must say it was day and night to me.

What device do you use to interface your iPod?

Themis
20-11-2009, 18:07
I don't have much information on Naim's iPod implementation. I would need some documentation on the subject before seriously trying to explain why.
In any case, often USB is much worse than coax, indeed. Perhaps it could explain the difference ?

The test was made with a Wadia 170i Transport and a PC (bitperfect) through USB.

Marco
20-11-2009, 18:15
Yes, but then, I never heard you saying that your Sony CD player was "not of quality"... hehe :lol:

LOL! :eyebrows:

Always remember that any form of digital replay, for me, is always a poor second to analogue (done well)!

I've yet to hear anything digital get near, sonically, to what my modified 1210 and CR-7 are capable of... ;)

Marco.

Themis
20-11-2009, 18:27
LOL! :eyebrows:

Always remember that any form of digital replay, for me, is always a poor second to analogue (done well)!

I've yet to hear anything digital get near, sonically, to what my modified 1210 and CR-7 are capable of... ;)
Marco.

No worries, Marco, I know... :eyebrows:

I have the experience of HQ analog and I would never discuss this point versus CD, anyway. Particularly concerning most 70's recordings. ;)

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 19:36
The problem with the iPod as I see it is that to get the best out of surely you need to put rockbox on to play flac .. Which ime makes the battery crap and as such unportable. With that in mind for the same money as a wadia an a iPod surely a quiet computer and dac is a better option - more hdd space etc??? Or am I out of touch (if you excuse the pun)

Alex_UK
20-11-2009, 19:45
I can't see how there is any advantage of a cd player over streamer at all!

You must have one hell of a wireless router if you can stream to your car when your half way down the M5! :lol:

Joking aside, I play CDs in my car more than I do at home sometimes, and whilst there are MP3/ipod options, the quality to me is even worse in the car than it is through headphones. OK, if I download the file I can burn to CD, but why should I? And then I have to pay for more disc space to keep a backup.

This has come up before, but Amazon US are now doing burn-on-demand for some titles, and I suspect this is how things will go short-term before CD fizzles out.

Themis
20-11-2009, 19:46
You're right Hamish : iPod is only a portable device.
Not the best hifi device, and, even if you can use it as a drive, it has other problems.
It makes a perfect car player, though and a very good on-the-road device, especially with hi-rez AAC.

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 20:23
when i rip my cd's i rip them to flac, i then create mp3 versions of all my flacs to go on the ipod... if i had a car i would use the ipod in it!

as a side note, there is a company that is, or has, developed a system that automatically updates the music system in your car's hdd wirelesssly with all the music on your home system everytime its within range!..... how, alex, do you like them apples ;)

Themis
20-11-2009, 20:29
i then create mp3 versions of all my flacs to go on the ipod...
You mean MP4 (AAC) I hope.... :eyebrows:

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 20:33
nope, plain old crappy mp3 ... its an iphone with £46 earbuds ... i aint fussed .... (also i didnt know about that format when i converted all the files)

Themis
20-11-2009, 20:45
nope, plain old crappy mp3 ... its an iphone with £46 earbuds ... i aint fussed .... (also i didnt know about that format when i converted all the files)
To give you an example :

Sound quality (approx) : 128kMP3=96kAAC, 256kMP3=128AAC, 320kCBR MP3=256kAAC
File size (approx) : each AAC is half the size of the equivalent (sounding) MP3
Best MP3 sound quality possible : 320CBR. File size: 1/3 of FLAC
Best MP4 sound quality possible : 400VBR (indistinguishable from lossless, even on studio monitors or studio headphones - except for very rare, pristine recordings). File size : 1/2 of FLAC

As you can see, for the same size, you have a much better SQ on AAC than on MP3, or, for the same SQ you can store twice the number of songs. ;)

Alex_UK
20-11-2009, 20:45
when i rip my cd's i rip them to flac, i then create mp3 versions of all my flacs to go on the ipod... if i had a car i would use the ipod in it!

as a side note, there is a company that is, or has, developed a system that automatically updates the music system in your car's hdd wirelesssly with all the music on your home system everytime its within range!..... how, alex, do you like them apples ;)

If I can get one of those for the price of a CD I'm sold! ;) Great idea.

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 20:52
If I can get one of those for the price of a CD I'm sold! ;) Great idea.

get an iphone
plug it in to sync with pc in the evening
get a ipod dock in your car
iphone in car can work as satnav, music player with all your music on and works as hands free phone!!!

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 20:53
To give you an example :

Sound quality (approx) : 128kMP3=96kAAC, 256kMP3=128AAC, 320kCBR MP3=256kAAC
File size (approx) : each AAC is half the size of the equivalent (sounding) MP3
Best MP3 sound quality possible : 320CBR. File size: 1/3 of FLAC
Best MP4 sound quality possible : 400VBR (indistinguishable from lossless, even on studio monitors or studio headphones - except for very rare, pristine recordings). File size : 1/2 of FLAC

As you can see, for the same size, you have a much better SQ on AAC than on MP3, or, for the same SQ you can store twice the number of songs. ;)

well, im sold! il set to the conversion asap... you gotta love dBpoweramp's file converter!

Themis
20-11-2009, 21:02
well, im sold! il set to the conversion asap... you gotta love dBpoweramp's file converter!
:lol:

You have put the Multi-encoder plugin, I hope... ;)

Me, I have to rip each CD into 3 formats : 128kAAC (wife+daughter) 400kAAC (me+son) FLAC (home). :eyebrows:
Multi-encoder does that in one pass.

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 21:07
... il look into that, im not sure if i do!

Alex_UK
20-11-2009, 21:09
get an iphone

When they put a decent amount of storage space in it I will! I struggle to cut down my 25,000+ tracks to fit on my 80GB classic as it is!


iphone in car can work as satnav, music player with all your music on and works as hands free phone!!!

My car has got a pretty nifty Sat Nav/Sound system (Boston Acoustics) so Sat Nav not needed, and I do much prefer to use CDs as they sound much better with a system that can reveal the difference. The latest version though has a 20GB hard drive installed and USB interface, so death of CD wouldn't trouble it... :(

The Vinyl Adventure
20-11-2009, 21:12
When they put a decent amount of storage space in it I will! I struggle to cut down my 25,000+ tracks to fit on my 80GB classic as it is!



My car has got a pretty nifty Sat Nav/Sound system (Boston Acoustics) so Sat Nav not needed, and I do much prefer to use CDs as they sound much better with a system that can reveal the difference. The latest version though has a 20GB hard drive installed and USB interface, so death of CD wouldn't trouble it... :(

booooooo, you win!
cds are buggered though.. that im right about! :)

Alex_UK
20-11-2009, 21:36
cds are buggered though.. that im right about! :)

I don't doubt it... :(

steve dixon
21-11-2009, 11:00
ok so no big deal you may think, but wait..... don't rush to judgement, so while i'm waiting to get cropped i pick up the paper, as you do, couple of pages in i see the headline..... the end of cd, so i read on, it seems linn have announced the end of cd, they are to stop making cd players and only produce 'streamers', it seems they've decided that nobody buys cd's anymore and everybody's busy downloading.

so after 30yrs or so it seems cd is finished? how long before all the manufacturers follow suit and dump the silver spinner? what does it mean for quality music reproduction? will cd be coming back in 15 yrs as vinyl has done because everybody will decide that the quality of downloads is inferior? haven't we heard all this before are we really going to be suckered into another change of format? afterall how many copies of DSOTM do we need on how many formats?

just some thoughts i'd put out there, feel free to agree or disagree or even agree to disagree, it just seems to me the great god mammon is alive and well.

cheers
steve

DSJR
21-11-2009, 11:17
The mass LP market only lasted around 30 years as well and it was the 12" single market and DJ's that probably kept it fully alive until fairly recently, when cash strapped record companies saw some profit in selling high quality pressings for £30 a pop - IMO...

I suspect that high speed downloads of higher quality than MP3 and large volume storage may just increase the available quality of downloads and if the circle keeps turning as it always does, quality of sound may come back into importance.

Hope you had a good haircut. The onset of close crops for many of us older ones has meant we can do it ourselves and the already diluted barbering skills on offer these days will be further lost. I remember the absolute joy of a proper wet facial shave with hot towels - a skill slowly returning and of course the Italians and Greek Cypriots always had excellent barbers...

Now back to HiFi. I'm going to put the Quads back into service. Not because of better sound, but because I miss the lovely warn, gloden glow that they emanate (and the corresponding glow they generate in me...........) :)

Themis
21-11-2009, 11:19
Join in : http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4533 ;)

Mike
21-11-2009, 13:09
"Something for the weekend, sir?"

Do barbers still say that? :eyebrows:

Primalsea
21-11-2009, 16:23
I remember the absolute joy of a proper wet facial

Now is it only me or did anyone else snigger childishly when they read this.:)

Alex_UK
21-11-2009, 16:35
My friend's wife is setting up a beautician business - she said to me she only has to do 5 facials a week to break even, I nearly wet myself.

webby
21-11-2009, 17:34
So, we're all agreed that cd is on it's way out yes? Just a matter of time right? Ok, so what about those folks who don't have a computer? How will they buy their music?

For me, the decline of cd wouldn't bother me, so long as I could get high quality downloads, perhaps with cover art and sleevenotes for the price I pay for a cd today, but when's that gonna happen?

hifi_dave
21-11-2009, 19:11
Two points come to mind with the Linn announcement.

1. They just aren't selling enough CD players to continue manufacture.

2. They are using this announcement to promote their download system.

Equally, they could have said that vinyl replay is finished but they are still selling some of that. I would imagine that their analogue turnover is much more than their CD based sales.

The Vinyl Adventure
21-11-2009, 19:47
Hifi dave, with the greatest respect, I don't think you are seeing the bigger picture! I agree with your sceptical veiw as regards lack of cd player sales. But digital isn't a replacement for analogue ie cd isn't a replacement for viynl and nor is the ds system. The dc system is just digital replacing digital or if you like, an advance of the same technology! Vinyl will always have a place as an accesable, reliable analogue source! CDs are just a medium for digital data that we have become acustomed to... It could just as easily be replaced by some kind of ssd format and, provided the quality is the same, it makes no real difference!

The Vinyl Adventure
21-11-2009, 19:49
I am actually suprise that this forum isn't more behind it as a format... Pound for pound the ds system is better value! This will come much more aparent in the next few years as the mass Market producers back it!

Edit

wheni refer to the ds system I am taking about all the brands of similar products not just the linn option
the high end squeezbox is also suposed to shat on similar priced cd players!!

Barry
21-11-2009, 19:57
My friend's wife is setting up a beautician business - she said to me she only has to do 5 facials a week to break even, I nearly wet myself.

Is that where women pay good money to lie around with their faces covered with an avacado puree, mud or cucumber slices?

Spectral Morn
21-11-2009, 21:08
Two points come to mind with the Linn announcement.

1. They just aren't selling enough CD players to continue manufacture.

2. They are using this announcement to promote their download system.

Equally, they could have said that vinyl replay is finished but they are still selling some of that. I would imagine that their analogue turnover is much more than their CD based sales.

As I said earlier its just Linn Marketing in action. However the press is quoting/placing this article in the position of gospel truth. Imho its not, at least not yet...that CD is finished. However sadly I must concede that the clock is ticking and its against CD. Its sad that there is not a quality..similar or better format to replace it. All we have is mostly low res downloads, MP3 quality and the promise of high res from some music companies and a few specialists offering it. Guys don't kid yourselves, the majority don't give a damn as long as they can steal a piece of music quality is secondary. Those who want high quality downloads will be in the minority as audio enthusiasts are now. The great un-washed don't give a toss, so the record companies are unlikely to jump to offer high quality downloads. After all is there a profit in it? The day of quality sound in recorded music is at the present time over except among a few specialist labels. We are a minority group and frankly irrelevant to the big labels. The way broad market Cd/digital sound quality has been ruined by copy protection, compression and loudness proves that sound quality is way down the list of priorities.

All very negative, but ultimately realistic...our opinions don't matter...there are plenty to buy(or steal)shit music, with shit sound. Music is not something to be treasured and grown or listened seriously too any more. Its musak, back ground noise and worthless to the majority.

I feel that the head long rush to digital will be/and has become the death of music and possibly hi-fi, which is already in the UK anyway an irrelevance to the majority. After all the term hi-fi has been robbed and bastardized to mean any thing but what it actually means.

All those who jump to PC/Mac/server based music listening are collectively holding the hammers and nails to the coffin of both music quality and audio quality. I know you all think you are pioneers, but I fear you are actually the executioners of the thing you all say you love.



Regards D S D L

DSJR
21-11-2009, 21:11
I didn't say wet facial - oh, never mind :lol:

Linn aren't the company they were and, to my knowledge, don't court the mainstream audio market apart from the few vinyl-LP12-style heads that will pay Gawd knows how much for the latest upgrade. On the CD market, they haven't, to my knowledge, scaled the dizzy heights possible of CD replay since the CD12 was discontinued and I don't think they sold many of these - I seem to remember less than 100 units although I could be wrong here.

As I understand it, CD player sales have been falling for some time and anyone with a computer can rip discs to a server.

Let Linn get on with their future. If anyone wants a good CD player made in the UK, look no further than Rega for two excellent machines under a grand and a world beater at a mere £6K......

The Vinyl Adventure
21-11-2009, 21:25
I am certainly not denying the logic behind what you all say about the death of hifi produced music .. In fact I think you might be right! There needs to be a big shake up in how we recive our good quality music from the record companys, and I also do worry that such a thing might not happen!
What I am saying is if you can get more out of your CDs for less money by going down the ds route then why the hell not?
It is purly the media of cd that I think is out of date beond a way to transport the 1 and 0's from the shop. The politics of the music industry is another convo altogether!
If you want to talk about the politics of the music industry or discuss a posible solution then let me chuck this idea into the mix:
we might be a minority but we are still a Market!
Would the record lables not eventually get to the point where they cater for the masses with cheap mp3 downloads but still offer more expensive high Rez options for us... It's supply and demand, there is a demand for hi quality, all be it a minority demand, it's still a demand! If they don't supply the high quality music they will be missing out on our money!
Not everyone can afford to eat in high quality resturants or drink expensive wine.. There is still a demand for those things and that demand is supplied to!!

DSJR
21-11-2009, 21:35
What's really dated about CD replay IIRC, is that the data is usually read and processed in real-time with no chance to attempt to re-read any errors that come through.

I'm not sure I agree with you Neil, as I do have some well recorded and produced CD's that don't sound any inferior when ripped. But then, I never regarded LP's as the highest of Fi unless they're played on a VERY serious turnable and preferably with a Decca :gig:

It'll come full circle (scuse the pun). I bet the un-adulterated sound files exist for much if not all of the current over-modulated cr@p around and they're waiting for a money-making means to come along with re-re-re-re-mastering properly........

The Vinyl Adventure
21-11-2009, 21:36
I should just say again I do also worry that you guys are right... But let's at least try and be a bit optimistic eh? ... At very least we still have all the CDs worth of music that have been in the last 25 odd years to explor! If the hobby does go to shit as far as new music is concerned... It's not going to shit altogether is it?!?!

Stratmangler
21-11-2009, 21:57
All those who jump to PC/Mac/server based music listening are collectively holding the hammers and nails to the coffin of both music quality and audio quality.

All of the CD music ripped to my HD has been properly error checked during the ripping process. This means that on playback there is no possibility of real time errors occurring. The quality is equally as good as any CDP you want to mention.


I know you all think you are pioneers, but I fear you are actually the executioners of the thing you all say you love.

Bollocks !!!

Chris;)

The Vinyl Adventure
21-11-2009, 22:07
All of the CD music ripped to my HD has been properly error checked during the ripping process. This means that on playback there is no possibility of real time errors occurring. The quality is equally as good as any CDP you want to mention.



i think saying as good as any cdp is a bit far... the naim cd 555 is still better than my linn majik ds...
fundamentlay though you are right! especially.. dare i say it again, when it comes to pound for pound value!




Bollocks !!!

Chris;)

again, a bit far! but i do agree i dont concidor my self a pioneer, i just think im taking advantage of a system that makes better sound for les money.. dare i say it again.. why wouldnt i! i am also not an executioner as i would happily stand up and fight for hifi quality! using equipment to play the music in higher quality from what ever means is not going to kill new high rez digital music the only thing that will do that is if the record companys decide we are to much of a small minority to cater for... and that is the discusion you's are vearing into! i feel like im a bit of a stuck record here... quite ironically i supose :)

Spectral Morn
21-11-2009, 22:40
All of the CD music ripped to my HD has been properly error checked during the ripping process. This means that on playback there is no possibility of real time errors occurring. The quality is equally as good as any CDP you want to mention.



Bollocks !!!

Chris;)

Sorry, but you are missing my point. The switch to downloading which was fueled by greed and theft (If you have copied a Cd or a track and not paid for it you are a thief). It is this factor that has forced the hand of manufacturers and record labels to do what they are doing. This is not about progress, but a reaction to the way the public take music.

Yes your copies of Cds are the same as the original, that not in doubt and not the thrust of my comments above. It is that by switching to Pc audio you are killing the production of music in a physical medium. Eventually you won't be able to buy new music as a CD and only as a download. Choice dies, quality dies. Record companies will only react to massive/profitable demand for quality full resolution or better if the demand persuades them to offer it...my point is that that demand does not exist among the majority and only among a minority. Therefore the phasing out of choice has started already. HMV has very little back catalogue music any more...new releases etc and the rest of their floor space given over to DVD and Games. My choice is eroded and so is yours.

Downloading imho is killing music and choice.


Regards D S D L

Stratmangler
21-11-2009, 22:47
i think saying as good as any cdp is a bit far... the naim cd 555 is still better than my linn majik ds...
fundamentlay though you are right! especially.. dare i say it again, when it comes to pound for pound value!

At £16,500 I'd expect it to sound better.
The Majik DS is £1800 or so. The doubt that the differences between the two are night and day. Certainly not £14,500 worth of difference.


again, a bit far! but i do agree i dont concidor my self a pioneer, i just think im taking advantage of a system that makes better sound for les money.. dare i say it again.. why wouldnt i! i am also not an executioner as i would happily stand up and fight for hifi quality! using equipment to play the music in higher quality from what ever means is not going to kill new high rez digital music the only thing that will do that is if the record companys decide we are to much of a small minority to cater for... and that is the discusion you's are vearing into! i feel like im a bit of a stuck record here... quite ironically i supose :)

I'm no pioneer on this front either. Nor am I an executioner. I find that my network streamer and server software just makes my music much more accessible. I don't have to beggar about with CD's any more, which IMO is great. I can also access some pretty great sounding internet radio streams, along with Spotify.

As I'm typing this I'm listening to an album by Gregg Allman. The album is called "Playin' Up A Storm" - great piece of work. I've transcribed this from vinyl, and it sounds just the mutt's nuts. And it saves me the wear and tear on both the record and my stylus.

I can't see myself going back to the way I used to listen to stuff.

Chris:)

Alex_UK
21-11-2009, 23:05
Let's not forget, the record companies make far, far more profit on downloads - no physical production or logistical costs to worry about - and hardly any of that is passed back - why would they want to continue to produce CDs if they can encourage a much more profitable method of distribution - i.e. downloads. Ironic, really, given the theft that caused it, as Neil has pointed out - you reap what you sow...

webby
21-11-2009, 23:13
Ok, so what about those folks who don't have a computer? How will they buy their music?



How will they play it back? Anyone?

Themis
21-11-2009, 23:13
Downloading is not killing anything imho.
I've had a music server for two years, so what I can say is : digital music is just a file with a certain size.

What is important is : the music, the recording quality, the resolution (redbook or studio) and the price.
The physical media used to store it at purchase time (be it CD, USB, download, streaming, SD stick, DVD, Bluray, put-you-favorite-media-here) is irrelevant and completely secondary.

I guess all people using dematerialized digital music will end up feeling the same. :)

Themis
21-11-2009, 23:17
How will they play it back? Anyone?
People who don't have a computer will have a CD player. Download companies will charge you a bit more in a physical format.

This already happens for software : it has a price as download only. If you want a CD/DVD, you can have one delivered (on demand), you'll pay a bit more.

webby
21-11-2009, 23:18
Therefore the phasing out of choice has started already. HMV has very little back catalogue music any more...new releases etc and the rest of their floor space given over to DVD and Games. My choice is eroded and so is yours.


This is true, and my wife and I were talking the other day about dvd's. I mean, really, how did visual media so overwhelm the music media? What is it about buying dvd's? I don't get it. Yes, I like movies, but once you've seen a movie, you've seen it. Ok, maybe after a few years you might enjoy watching it again, but by then it'll be on tv anyway. Honestly, who buys these things, and how did they takeover the music stores so quickly that the cd's were shunted downstairs or to the back?

aquapiranha
21-11-2009, 23:29
I can see why many people go down the streaming route. I have heard a couple of systems using it and it is obvious, listening to Ian Walker's system for example that the quality is as good as I think even the top CD players available today. Add to that the ease of use aspect and you can see the advantages. I was looking at the Sonos system today and it looks very good, plus it can be controlled by an ipod touch!

bigmoog
22-11-2009, 00:48
[BM lowers shields]


Linn ceasing CDP manufacturing is irrelevant. They will restart production of CD/DVD/BluRay or what ever hard physical medium is in fashion, when it will become fiscally prudent to do so.

one day we will also lament the passing of downloads - when music is injected directly into our brains (for a small fee of course and a signature of acceptance of terms and conditions to micro$oft/Apple/Google/etc).

only VINYL will remain as the high resolution music reproduction medium


[RAISE SHIELDS]

The Vinyl Adventure
22-11-2009, 02:45
How will they play it back? Anyone?

You buy a cd player to play CDs, you buy a turntable to play records, a tapedeck...
How does someone who doesn't have a record player play records? They don't ...
If you wanna play mp3/flac/acc/whatever you buy a computer!

The Vinyl Adventure
22-11-2009, 03:01
My view is, there is sweet FA any of can do about it, it's all speculation anyway, non of us really know what will happen in the next few years! I'm just making the most out of having a source that is as good as it is... If the music industry stops recording high quality music (which I personnaly seriously doubt) il just buy old CDs off eBay and in charity shops, amazon, play, off my mates.. People are always gonna make music and those musicians are quite likely to want it to sound good ... And if they don't and it all goes to crap and I run out of CDs to buy il listen to the ones I've got, or go down the pub and listen to some live music!!
Let's not all get in too much of a tiz about it eh :)

Primalsea
22-11-2009, 13:04
My personal belief is that its not the medium that's the issue it the quality of the production. I've heard CD's sound better than vinyl and vis versa. I have also heard MP3's sound better than CD. The issue is that some people just use poor lazy recording techniques and production. U2 albums used to be fairly good but their last few offerings on CD where shit to the point that I only listened to them once and then dumped them in a box.

Also its how well the reply equipment is made. CD's for all their foibles use lower frequencies which means it can be easier to design good equipment. Higher frequency digital circuits require more consideration for many reasons increased crosstalk and jitter being two.

I have a TT but these days all my digital music is stored on a dedicated PC that was designed as a music player. I use a Chord DAC64 that has a data buffer to sort out any problems with the data from the PC. I will still mostly buy CD's and keep them upstairs.

IMHO if the record companies actually produced a high quality CD in a nice box with a high quality book and maybe a bit of software, screen saver etc people would want to buy it for £10 instead of downloading. Same for consoles games, the manufacturers are try all sorts of draconian measures to stop piracy but when you bought the game if you got other high quality goodies such as a decent manual, keyboard overlay etc etc people would want to but it for the £40 or whatever they charge.

on a side issue that is related it seems that its pride of ownership is the thing that's disappearing. People don't want to own anything that they can be proud of owning for a long time. Even cars are becoming almost throw away items these days.

chris@panteg
25-11-2009, 11:47
I have just been browsing the other forum's all discussing this same topic , some peeps are getting into Gay fight's over this .

Its so overblown really ' quite sad ' but i have got to say this ' i am compelled to admire Ivor's marketing genius ' he's doing again ' back in the 70's and 80's with the LP12.

Now with his DS player's ' its still a limited market at these prices but he may introduce something even more affordable than the Sneaky ,who know's .

Themis
25-11-2009, 19:04
Some stop making CD players and some continue...

New TAD 2010 model :
http://www.my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2009d/tadd6001bt.jpg
http://www.my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2009d/tadd6005bt.jpg
http://www.my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2009d/tadd6006bt.jpg
http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/img/avw/docs/328/858/tad02.jpg

Full pics here : http://www.my-hiend.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=1937

The Vinyl Adventure
25-11-2009, 20:23
i recon if he-man was into hifi he would have that! it looks like its been blasted out of rock or something!!

Primalsea
25-11-2009, 21:20
That's one hell of a penis extension! I feel shrivelled just looking at it.

Marco
28-11-2009, 11:56
What the heck is all that old scratched shit it's sat on?? :scratch:

Imagine demonstrating such expensive equipment and making it look (and no doubt sound) shit by plonking it on a collection of 'granddad's old sideboards'... :mental:

Another example of a (possibly) great system ruined by poor set-up!

Marco.

Primalsea
28-11-2009, 12:01
I just thought that Big Wood added to the penis extension thing. The black thingy is more like a womb and was probably put there by a woman.

Marco
28-11-2009, 12:05
LOL! It's all rather vulgar, isn't it? :eyebrows:

Marco.

trailer
28-11-2009, 12:06
I don't really get it either. One company, who through their own arrogance, nearly sank a while ago have now re-surfaced with a new product line.
Look at it the other way, if their CD players were selling that well surely they would still be making them. There may well be another reason altogether as to why they aren't selling many? :eyebrows:

Primalsea
28-11-2009, 12:14
It has occurred to me that all hifi can be put into a few categories:

Badly conceived and designed and cheaply made

Badly conceived and designed and expensively made

Well conceived and designed and cheaply made

Well conceived and designed and expensively made

Not well conceived & not actually really designed (just standard parts and circuits cobbled together) and cheaply made

Not well conceived & not actually really designed (just standard parts and circuits cobbled together) and expensively made

I wonder what this stuff is?

bigmoog
28-11-2009, 13:08
My opinion:


There has been some total guff written on HifiForums about Linn ceasing CDP production and the rise of Computer based music streaming etc......its completely irrelevant, its marketing spin to cover up low sales of overpriced poor performance. It does not usher in the rapid decline of CD and CD player manufacture (...yet) ...and Linn still make the unidisk.....


While the likes of Naim, Rega etc continue CDP production then CD reproduction will continue for years.

I tired of Linn back in 1989 or so.....boring...marketing over reality.....they will be in administration within 5 ears, unless they release the Linn Direct Drive TT. :lol::smoking:

The Vinyl Adventure
28-11-2009, 13:41
Naim will be next - I give them 2 years max!

Stratmangler
28-11-2009, 13:55
... unless they release the Linn Direct Drive TT....

Snowball in Hell's chance of seeing one of them !:lolsign:

Chris;)

bigmoog
28-11-2009, 14:07
Snowball in Hell's chance of seeing one of them !:lolsign:

Chris;)

it will happen , Linn have always secretly admired Direct Drives

its in prototype at the mo'

the Linn Axle, Frankland Anniversary LTD edition...

Marco
28-11-2009, 14:12
Naim will be next - I give them 2 years max!

I sincerely hope not Hamish.. I've got a lot of respect for Naim as a company, and the people who run it and work there :)

For me, they're a different ball game from Linn, and populated by genuine people who care about what they do, and not just seeking to make a 'fast buck' from the latest 'big thing'.

Marco.

Themis
28-11-2009, 14:18
Marco, reading between the lines it seems as if you were saying that Linn is populated by people who don't care about what they do, and are just seeking to make a 'fast buck' from the latest 'big thing' ? :eyebrows:

The Vinyl Adventure
28-11-2009, 14:45
I sincerely hope not Hamish.. I've got a lot of respect for Naim as a company, and the people who run it and work there :)

For me, they're a different ball game from Linn, and populated by genuine people who care about what they do, and not just seeking to make a 'fast buck' from the latest 'big thing'.

Marco.

you might be right, but i wouldnt hold your breath that they keep making them for a lot longer! i would have thought that most if not all of the source r&d that naim is doing at the mo is centred around computer based audio! i cant really see them replacing the cd555 for eg.. of course i could well be wrong? i think it is very telling that they have just built a dac though!

Joe
28-11-2009, 15:00
Now, all we need is for Linn to buy out the Technics turntable operation, and for Naim to make a valve amp, and everyone'll be happy.

DSJR
28-11-2009, 15:08
I sincerely hope not Hamish.. I've got a lot of respect for Naim as a company, and the people who run it and work there :)

For me, they're a different ball game from Linn, and populated by genuine people who care about what they do, and not just seeking to make a 'fast buck' from the latest 'big thing'.

Marco.

Now Julian's gone, I'm not so sure Marco, although their current range does perform differently to stuff from the CB and Olive era it seems. One hears "things" you know? It's when these "things" come from diametrically opposed personalities from different parts of the country that one starts to take notice.........

The point is, you buy cheap as possible and sell as dear as possible. CD sales are falling apparently, whereas downloads and vinyl is growing it seems. Linn's market isn't the enthusiast market, apart from the LP12 owners-club, and well heeled architects in the UK may find much to admire in Linn's current streaming solutions - a high end version of B&O's market here in the UK.

chris@panteg
28-11-2009, 16:33
it will happen , Linn have always secretly admired Direct Drives

its in prototype at the mo'

the Linn Axle, Frankland Anniversary LTD edition...

HI Jonathan ' but you forgot about the Rankin Resistors ' and Benson fuses .

bigmoog
28-11-2009, 16:41
HI Jonathan ' but you forgot about the Rankin Resistors ' and Benson fuses .


:doh:

thats because Im overcome with Hughesian fumes, I tripped over my tank of distilled and purified water and my peterbelted LP12 has disappeared into realms of pure twaddle :eyebrows:

chris@panteg
28-11-2009, 16:59
Thats ok Jonathan ' i understand completely ' after 13 years of LP12 ownership myself (i still have the learned book of Linn somewhere) i am not sure if i am fully recovered .

REM
28-11-2009, 17:18
..... Linn's market isn't the enthusiast market.... and well heeled architects in the UK may find much to admire in Linn's current streaming solutions - a high end version of B&O's market here in the UK.

I seem to recall an interview with IT in Hi-Fi Bluff or Whatever back in the early 80's laying out his vision for the future of Linn Products. He made no bones about the fact that he wished to create a UK version of B&O, a brand recognised by 'non-audiophiles' as synonymous with quality sound, style and innovation. At the time I thought 'fair 'nuff' but he didn't say that this vision would also include Linn turning its back on the very customer base that built the company in the first place.
Like BM I've had it with Linn for these last 20 years or so, they really don't seem to give a flying toss about their past customers, if a component goes tits up all they want you to do is buy something new, at twice the price, whatever happened to customer service/support, of course should have known, that's an old fashioned concept not suited to a forward thinking, here and now, ground breaking company like Linn Products.
Imagine the uproar if someone had, say, a Leica r/f go kaput after six or seven years only to be told 'sorry can't fix that, buy a new one', ridiculous:steam:.

trailer
28-11-2009, 17:22
Imagine the uproar if someone had, say, a Leica r/f go kaput after six or seven years only to be told 'sorry can't fix that, buy a new one', ridiculous:steam:.

That's why I have a primarily Naim, Beresford (OK + Homar) system :smoking:

The Vinyl Adventure
28-11-2009, 17:38
I agree with all comments that they shouldn't be turning their back on thier past customers etc, and maybe it's because I'm younger and have now learnt to accept that things aren't built to last, but the way I see my majik ds is if it only last me the 5 years it's guarunteed for it will have cost me £280 a year and that is, in my eyes, perfectly acceptable for the quality it gives me! Fingers crossed it will last longer too! Maybe i'm missing the point, and maybe I should be in uproar about this throw away world ... But I prefer to be happy and accepting and enjoy my life than be fretting and complain about how shit it all is!

The Vinyl Adventure
28-11-2009, 17:39
For the most part anyway... I do enjoy the odd winge about stuff... :) the majik ds silver lining out weighs the possibility of it going caput and me being left with sod all

SteveW
28-11-2009, 18:31
I agree with all comments that they shouldn't be turning their back on thier past customers etc, and maybe it's because I'm younger and have now learnt to accept that things aren't built to last, but the way I see my majik ds is if it only last me the 5 years it's guarunteed for it will have cost me £280 a year and that is, in my eyes, perfectly acceptable for the quality it gives me! Fingers crossed it will last longer too! Maybe i'm missing the point, and maybe I should be in uproar about this throw away world ... But I prefer to be happy and accepting and enjoy my life than be fretting and complain about how shit it all is!

Like your sentiments Hamish.

Macca
29-11-2009, 10:58
I have an Lk1 pre and Lk100 power still working fine after 25 and 20 odd years resepctively (although the pre has now been retired and the power is just a stop gap). What's the cost per year on that? It is a shame that Linn do not do like Quad and service and update all their old stuff, I agree.

Anyhow I offered the pair for sale and got a buyer pretty much straight away. Not the worst hi-fi purchases I have ever made by a long shot - I paid £320 for the pair so when sold 5 years use will have cost me just £90. And the LK100 is a bloody good power amp for £200 used, don't care what anyone says!:ner:

Jonboy
29-11-2009, 11:09
I've got a LK1 pre amp that is knackered, when you plug it in it makes a constant tone and the buttons are locked, any ideas?

Macca
29-11-2009, 11:15
I've got a LK1 pre amp that is knackered, when you plug it in it makes a constant tone and the buttons are locked, any ideas?

Jon

I've seen you system on the other thread - just wondering what on earth you would do with the Linn even if you got it working? Cost of repair would probably be more than resale value I would think.

Jonboy
29-11-2009, 11:29
It belongs to a mate who lives in France, he wanted me to get rid of it for him but it has developed this fault

Macca
29-11-2009, 11:37
It belongs to a mate who lives in France, he wanted me to get rid of it for him but it has developed this fault

I see. Spares or repairs only then I suppose. Such a shame as the casework, power switch etc are all such great quality on these things it seems wrong to just bin then when they eventually pack in.

DSJR
29-11-2009, 17:33
The LK1 can cook its regulators and the first thing to check would be here. The supply caps were upgraded to 10,000uF ones in the late 80's, so you could check these as well.

Linn stopped support long ago for this IIRC and you must remember that the components were soldered through the board (made by IBM I was told) and component replacement must be done with care.