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View Full Version : Box Speakers - are they really so bad?



jandl100
19-04-2008, 09:57
A couple of obviously knowledgeable and experienced folks on another thread here have said something along the lines of "I could never go back to box speakers".

Interesting, but I'm not sure I really understand where they are coming from in this.

To me, speaker design is the art of compromise. I really don't think you can have it all in one package.

As one of this hobby's most ardent box-swappers, I like to change speaker technologies fairly often. I've owned and enjoyed several examples of stat, stat hybrid, ribbon, ribbon hybrid, horn hybrid and numerous configurations of pure box speaker ..... sealed box, ported, open baffle, open baffle hybrid.
The only main type I can think of that I haven't owned are the single-cone driver type (Jordan etc) - and that's probably only a matter of time! - although I have to confess that my experience of such beasts at Shows has never been very positive - baby and bathwater comes to mind. ;)

Currently, I have up for sale a pair of ribbon/open baffle hybrid speakers that I couldn't get to settle properly into my room, and also (my current main pair) some "pure box" active speakers from a quarter of a century ago (sometimes I think we haven't advanced much at all in speaker design over those years - those John Bowers Active Ones sound superb!).

I must confess that the thought of mental 'No Go' Areas" in speaker design seems a bit daft to me - they all have something to offer!

Anyone here have any thoughts on this issue?

Ashley James
19-04-2008, 10:20
Jerry and interesting point and probably due to the "musical experience" that all panel speakers give. Technically most panel type speakers are poor performers compared to conventional cone ones and that's true even of Quad ESLs. However if you hear them in a suitable room they can be magnificent. If you have a long thin fairly empty room and can position them firing the long distance, well away from the back wall and sit exactly in the right place, you'll be amazed at how good they sound.

Having done all that and then switched back to a good pair of cone jobs you'll get a much better stereo image over a over a wider arc, greater clarity, better control and dynamics and, if it's on the recording, you'll get better front to back depth. If it isn't panels do create it.

Peter Walker always said that he was surprised more people didn't prefer the BC1!

Most of them are unreliable and expensive or impossible to repair so proceed with caution.

Ash

Nick
19-04-2008, 12:13
For what it's worth my experience ties in pretty closely to Ashley on this subject. Although my reasoning may be slightly different.

Over the years at various points in time I've fallen for panel speakers, in my case Apogee and Martin Logan, only to fall out of love after living with them for some time. Sure they do that wonderful floating midrange and ethereal treble but I've yet to find one that can do bass the way I'm used to hearing, I should mention I do play bass guitar in a semi serious way, or successfully integrate a cone bass with panel. I also prefer a wider listening spot than is achievable with a lot of panels.

I've never been a big fan of the Quad thing even though, ironically, it was hearing a system owned by a friend's father was what got me turned on to this crazy hobby in the first place. He was using the ESL57 speakers.

Of course YMMV etc etc;

Nick

sastusbulbas
19-04-2008, 12:29
One of my favorite panel speakers was the Martin Logan CLZ II.

I was torn between this and my Kef at one point, I loved everything about thier presentation apart from one thing. Bass, it just didn't do it properly. The decision about them was made easy by moving to a smaller house LOL. (They did need an amount of room)

Quad's never did it for me. Bigger Apogee's Scintalla and such would be another to try. (Some company makes these under a different name I think?)

jandl100
19-04-2008, 13:09
I've had a fair old crack at panel speakers myself ..... Quad 63, Apogee Caliper Sigs, Electrostatic Research Vista 2 hybrids, Martin Logan CLS2z, Maggie smga quasi-ribbons, Audiostatic DCI Wings, Apogee Centaur Minor ribbon hybrids, Dali Skyline 1000 open baffle ribbon hybrids ......

... it's definitely a "can't live with them, can't live without them" thing for me! LOL. I seem to alternate panel and box speakers, so over the long haul I get the best of both worlds :)

Ali Tait
19-04-2008, 22:20
For me,it's the way I perceive the bass.Since getting the ESL III's I find I can hear the boxy colouration in the bass on every box speaker I listen to now.Bass from cone speakers in boxes has a relatively high distortion component.A lot of people like this,as it can give "grunt" to the bass and contribute to the listening experience.I include myself in this in the past.But now,having lived with the statics for a while,I find the colourations too intrusive now.The statics may not give hughly deep bass,but I find them quite adequate now I have become accustomed to them,and it is also clean bass,with very low amounts of distortion.I think this is why a lot of people perceive statics as being bass light,as they are not hearing the "grunt" (i.e. distortion) that they are used to hearing from box speakers,but some do actually go fairly low.

Ashley James
20-04-2008, 08:17
There is actually more distortion from an Electrostatic at low frequencies than there is from a cone, however they are a number of other factors that effect how much either has, so it's not really possible to make that assumption. Better to accept that for all their faults, ESL's can be wonderful to live with.

Nick
20-04-2008, 13:17
For me,it's the way I perceive the bass.Since getting the ESL III's I find I can hear the boxy colouration in the bass on every box speaker I listen to now.Bass from cone speakers in boxes has a relatively high distortion component.A lot of people like this,as it can give "grunt" to the bass and contribute to the listening experience.I include myself in this in the past.But now,having lived with the statics for a while,I find the colourations too intrusive now.The statics may not give hughly deep bass,but I find them quite adequate now I have become accustomed to them,and it is also clean bass,with very low amounts of distortion.I think this is why a lot of people perceive statics as being bass light,as they are not hearing the "grunt" (i.e. distortion) that they are used to hearing from box speakers,but some do actually go fairly low.

Just curious how you square this idea away with the fact that most amplified bass instruments will be popped through cone speakers ?
I haven't see Ampeg or the like using ESL panels in their bass cabinets :)

Ashley James
20-04-2008, 15:18
Don't forget that if you simply plug a bass guitar or Double Bass into a hi fi, you get a very pure but dull and uninteresting sound. A Bass Combo will not have proper bass extension, it will exaggerate and distort the harmonics and overtones as well as adding to them because the valve amp will be overdriven and the cones of the drive units will be breaking up. The result is desirable distortion to give the instrument colour and to suit the musician.

When I was at ATC, we use to make special drive units for mostly Jazz Musicians Double Bass Amplifiers to help them get the sound they wanted.

Nick
20-04-2008, 16:11
Don't forget that if you simply plug a bass guitar or Double Bass into a hi fi, you get a very pure but dull and uninteresting sound. A Bass Combo will not have proper bass extension, it will exaggerate and distort the harmonics and overtones as well as adding to them because the valve amp will be overdriven and the cones of the drive units will be breaking up. The result is desirable distortion to give the instrument colour and to suit the musician.

When I was at ATC, we use to make special drive units for mostly Jazz Musicians Double Bass Amplifiers to help them get the sound they wanted.

Well I can assure that my bass cabinets have proper extension !!

I also don't use valves to power them in fact most electric bass players don't these days. With over 1000 watts of clean power going into my cabinets and a studio quality pre-amp taking input for the instruments I play, over driving is not a problem.

Ashley James
21-04-2008, 12:36
Nick I'm agreeing and pointing out that you and other musicians build the amplification and speakers to get the sound that you want, whereas, we as hi fi manufacturers are trying to create a replay system that doesn't alter things further. If we bugger up the Bass then you won't hear "your" sound, you'll be hearing our mistakes. Hence our argument for accurate sound reproduction from hi fi or studio monitors.

Ash

Nick
21-04-2008, 16:10
Nick I'm agreeing and pointing out that you and other musicians build the amplification and speakers to get the sound that you want, whereas, we as hi fi manufacturers are trying to create a replay system that doesn't alter things further. If we bugger up the Bass then you won't hear "your" sound, you'll be hearing our mistakes. Hence our argument for accurate sound reproduction from hi fi or studio monitors.

Ash

Apologies for misunderstanding your angle Ash :)

Ashley James
21-04-2008, 17:18
Not at all! It's bloody difficult when you can't see people!