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Clive
04-11-2009, 22:08
There's a certain type of vocals that really bugs me. It's an old fashioned warble, female vocalists seem especially prone to this. It's when a note is not held but instead the throat is vibrated. Examples include Susan Boyle / Wild Horses (an extreme example), Streisand, Joan Baez. I can only think they do it because they are terrified of being off key (flat or sharp). The "beautiful" voices don't do this - eg Alison Krauss. So, is this warbling an indication of a lack of confidence or a poor voice?

John
04-11-2009, 22:10
Not sure think some artist think it adds an interesting effect kind of like vibrato

Clive
04-11-2009, 22:14
Not sure think some artist think it adds an interesting effect kind of like vibrato
Well I hate it! Probably I'm a philistine.

Alex_UK
04-11-2009, 22:33
This is just a wild stab in the dark - wonder if it is something more "tired" (older) voices do - the latest Beverley Craven album (I know, I'm sorry, but I had such a fantastic "romantic moment" to 'Promise Me' that I have had to buy all her albums when she releases them - mercifully only 3 more since the self-titled debut! ;) ) is plagued with warbling, and yes, it bugs me!

Barry
04-11-2009, 22:58
This is just a wild stab in the dark - wonder if it is something more "tired" (older) voices do - the latest Beverley Craven album (I know, I'm sorry, but I had such a fantastic "romantic moment" to 'Promise Me' that I have had to buy all her albums when she releases them - mercifully only 3 more since the self-titled debut! ;) ) is plagued with warbling, and yes, it bugs me!

Interesting speculation Alex. I assume that this observation is based on the latest recordings. I don't know how old Beverley Craven or Susan Boyle are, but they're not that old surely? Joan Baez is in her late sixties and I doubt if she is terrified of being off-key; she has perfect pitch.

Perhaps it's because these singers can no longer hold a sustained note for long. I have not heard any of Baez's later recordings but have many of her sixties and early seventies output.

One artist that I like, but can be accused of overdoing vibrato is Buffy Sainte-Marie. At times it bugs me too!

Regards

hifi_dave
04-11-2009, 23:04
I can't stand the yodelling - Leona Lewis for instance.

Rare Bird
04-11-2009, 23:06
Yodeling..Thought this was gonna be a Thjis Van Leer thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpV5InLw52U

Magic

Joe
04-11-2009, 23:07
Didn't Edith Piaf do a lot of warbling, or was she just being French?

Clive
04-11-2009, 23:19
Interesting speculation Alex. I assume that this observation is based on the latest recordings. I don't know how old Beverley Craven or Susan Boyle are, but they're not that old surely? Joan Baez is in her late sixties and I doubt if she is terrified of being off-key; she has perfect pitch.

Perhaps it's because these singers can no longer hold a sustained note for long. I have not heard any of Baez's later recordings but have many of her sixties and early seventies output.

One artist that I like, but can be accused of overdoing vibrato is Buffy Sainte-Marie. At times it bugs me too!

Regards
Baez does warble from quite early years. It used not to bug me but it does now, shame oz I love her songs. Calling it vibrato just seems like using a latin term to cover up an unpleasant sound. You'd never call warbling a pure sound but the the likes of Alison Krauss are pure - no warlblng. I suppose I'm just becoming picky.

Barry
04-11-2009, 23:24
Baez does warble from quite early years. It used not to bug me but it does now, shame 'coz I love her songs. Calling it vibrato just seems like using a latin term to cover up an unpleasant sound. You'd never call warbling a pure sound but the the likes of Alison Krauss are pure - no warbling. I suppose I'm just becoming picky.

Can you give me some examples Clive? I have much of her early stuff and can't say I've noticed. Another person who didn't 'warble' was the late Sandy Denny.

Clive
04-11-2009, 23:31
Can you give me some examples Clive? I have much of her early stuff and can't say I've noticed. Another person who didn't 'warble' was the late Sandy Denny.
I suppose it's mid career, 74/75. Gracias a la Vida and Diamonds and Rust. Indeed greatest hits from that period seem littered with it.

Barry
04-11-2009, 23:46
I suppose it's mid career, 74/75. Gracias a la Vida and Diamonds and Rust. Indeed greatest hits from that period seem littered with it.

Ah - I don't know those tracks; the latest Baez album I have is 'Come From The Shadows' (1972).

Oh wait a minute - I have just remembered I have a compilation: 'Joan'. It has the two tracks you cite. Haven't played it in years (I usually play her '60s stuff). Will give it a listen.

Regards

Clive
04-11-2009, 23:51
Ah - I don't know those tracks; the latest Baez album I have is 'Come From The Shadows' (1972).

Oh wait a minute - I have just remembered I have a compilation: 'Joan'. It has the two tracks you cite. Haven't played it in years (I usually play her '60s stuff). Will give it a listen.

Regards
I was quoting albums rather than tracks. I'm in a hotel at the moment so I hope my memory is ok. It was the the Susan Boyle / Wild Horses track that riled me so much on the radio today.

Spectral Morn
05-11-2009, 00:37
Yodeling..Thought this was gonna be a Thjis Van Leer thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpV5InLw52U

Magic

Saw them a few years ago (Focus)...Hocus Pocus live was amazing as was the rest of the gig.

Back on topic...vibrato...yes I don't like it either.


Regards D S D L

Marco
05-11-2009, 12:37
In Glasgow we call it the 'shady bong' syndrome... Snapper will explain ;)

Marco.

Cotlake
05-11-2009, 21:38
Hi Clive,

I've identified this thing over alot of listening years and my conclusion is that the singer attempts 'vibrato' but basically can't master it. That is very true of young singers with limited training but also applies to well trained but aging stars. I example some of the recent broadcasts by dear Dame Shirley Bassey. Certainly a star in her time but obviously performance wise over the hill now.

Good vibrato is rare even with well established classical music singers. Some of them have such extreme extension on vibrato pitch, it's hard to identify what the foundation tone actually is.

In the popular music world, I'm convinced this is about singers trying to make their voices sound mature and well trained when actually they don't have the pedigree. Those of us who have the 'ears to hear' identify it immediately and get instantly put off. That's my take on it.

Regards,

Greg

Jeremy Marchant
14-11-2009, 18:04
Vibrato is a periodic change in pitch, whereas tremolo is a periodic change in volume (ie, the 'throbbing' effect).
Up until the last few decades, most Western classical singer trainers taught their students to consciously do this - it being perceived by some people as a way of adding emotion, expression, feeling etc, to the words.
So unfortunately many singers do it because they've been taught it is Good Thing to do. Of course amateur singers and others are so insecure in pitch that presumably they believe that, if they sing enough different notes, they'll hit the right one occasionally.

Personally I hate both techniques unless they're done so well, you don't notice it.

When it comes to instrumentalists, the picture is somewhat different: classical orchestral music such as Brahms's would sound odd if played completely free of vibrato and tremolo - the sound the composer had in his head while writing would have included more of these effects than we are currently used to.

An acoustic guitarist will manipulate the string to induce a tremolo in order to extend the note.

To hear completely vibrato-less/tremolo-less singing, try one of the singers of the 'Early music' school. Of whom, Emma Kirkby is a good recommendation: I doubt she's ever produced a disc not worth listening to.