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Ashley James
15-04-2008, 10:03
Various remarks have been made to the effect that I'm bad news on Forums and that I've been spamming them to sell my Company. It's infuriated me because I don't believe that I have and I certainly didn't have that intention. All I wanted to do was defend ADM9s from a hatchet job by people who don't understand the implications of the technology. There only a tiny number of UK Forums where this has happened relative to the number Worldwide that are discussing us in a much more positive light.

I see myself as a victim rather than the aggressor and also that the instigators have been more dealers than enthusiasts. It's not surprising since ADM9s are replacing expensive and upgradeable systems, but I don't think that's all it is. In the days before the Internet, dealers were king, far fewer customers spoke to manufacturers and they controlled the customer and the deal. We were always suspicious of how good they were because so many leads were lost compared the number number of conversions we made here, but there was no way of knowing why.

The Internet changed everything (we've had a website for 9 years or so), there was a huge increase in correspondence from customers and many were very angry with the dealers and the advice they were giving.

I particularly remember one quite famous customer of ours saying: "Thank you for recommending dealer X, however I don't want Attitude because I get more than enough at home!" There's no need for me to elaborate and you might argue that since we disagree with much of the subjective stuff discussed on message boards, it's our fault for being different. Maybe, but I think if you look round a few, you'll see a lot of aggression from dealers and also arrogance. Exactly what I'm accused of! However I'm surrounded by highly qualified and trained engineers who try to keep me accurate, they are not.

Anyhow the reason that I've started this thread is because this morning I needed the telephone number of one who hasn't paid his bill, he sells very little and is always late paying. I searched google and came up with a forum for shops in his area and where the service he and the other give is commented on. Below is what I found:

Nice shop, interesting products. Knew their stuff.
Was this review useful? by Teaser, 03 Jan 2008
Staff here are rude and dismissive. Won't be using this place again.
Was this review useful? 1 by Andrea Shaw, 07 Feb 2007
Gave item for upgrade. Delayed. Numerous unreturned phone calls to find out what was happening. Did not even phone when item arrived back. Rubbish.
Was this review useful? 1 by Anonymous, 22 Jun 2006
Top of the range. You can't get much better than this.
Was this review useful? by Anonymous, 21 Jun 2006
Top of the range hardware and services. If you have £100,000+ to spend then these guys are for you.
Was this review useful? by Anonymous, 31 Jul 2005
I found the person there quite unhelpful. Normally when I go into a hi-fi shop the staff are inquisitive and friendly. Instead, I had to pry all the information I wanted. The staff just didn't seem to be interested.
Was this review useful? 1 by mystical, 28 Jun 2005
Expensive.
Was this review useful? 1 by Anonymous, 08 Jun 2005

In the old days if someone complained about a dealer, he was usually shit stirring because he hadn't got what he wanted, but now most of the complaints seem reasonable and there are far more. Some will happily pay us the full price rather go into one!

We've got a quite a few dealers and they are our friends, most do pretty well and if they don't or we get customers complaining, we sack them quickly, but it seems to me there is a problem and that it's worth inviting comments on AOS. Dealers are a significant chunk of these Forums so they can make observations provided they don't hide behind a psuedonym.

Ashley

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 10:43
I can think of two instances where Ashley's comments and my own experiences apply -

1. Myford Engineering, sacked all their dealers for being useless and opened a factory shop. The service and stock levels are superb.

2. Apple computer, has opened it's own chain of shops worldwide and also has one of the best web sites in the world.

In both cases they identified gross inadequacies in the retail trader and took steps to deal with it, to the customers undoubted benefit.

I believe Linn and Naim control their dealers to some extent, but their products are now thought to be poor for the money. I doubt personally whether they will be around much longer.

anthonyTD
15-04-2008, 11:44
Various remarks have been made to the effect that I'm bad news on Forums and that I've been spamming them to sell my Company. It's infuriated me because I don't believe that I have and I certainly didn't have that intention. All I wanted to do was defend ADM9s from a hatchet job by people who don't understand the implications of the technology. There only a tiny number of UK Forums where this has happened relative to the number Worldwide that are discussing us in a much more positive light.

I see myself as a victim rather than the aggressor and also that the instigators have been more dealers than enthusiasts. It's not surprising since ADM9s are replacing expensive and upgradeable systems, but I don't think that's all it is. In the days before the Internet, dealers were king, far fewer customers spoke to manufacturers and they controlled the customer and the deal. We were always suspicious of how good they were because so many leads were lost compared the number number of conversions we made here, but there was no way of knowing why.

The Internet changed everything (we've had a website for 9 years or so), there was a huge increase in correspondence from customers and many were very angry with the dealers and the advice they were giving.

I particularly remember one quite famous customer of ours saying: "Thank you for recommending dealer X, however I don't want Attitude because I get more than enough at home!" There's no need for me to elaborate and you might argue that since we disagree with much of the subjective stuff discussed on message boards, it's our fault for being different. Maybe, but I think if you look round a few, you'll see a lot of aggression from dealers and also arrogance. Exactly what I'm accused of! However I'm surrounded by highly qualified and trained engineers who try to keep me accurate, they are not.

Anyhow the reason that I've started this thread is because this morning I needed the telephone number of one who hasn't paid his bill, he sells very little and is always late paying. I searched google and came up with a forum for shops in his area and where the service he and the other give is commented on. Below is what I found:

Nice shop, interesting products. Knew their stuff.
Was this review useful? by Teaser, 03 Jan 2008
Staff here are rude and dismissive. Won't be using this place again.
Was this review useful? 1 by Andrea Shaw, 07 Feb 2007
Gave item for upgrade. Delayed. Numerous unreturned phone calls to find out what was happening. Did not even phone when item arrived back. Rubbish.
Was this review useful? 1 by Anonymous, 22 Jun 2006
Top of the range. You can't get much better than this.
Was this review useful? by Anonymous, 21 Jun 2006
Top of the range hardware and services. If you have £100,000+ to spend then these guys are for you.
Was this review useful? by Anonymous, 31 Jul 2005
I found the person there quite unhelpful. Normally when I go into a hi-fi shop the staff are inquisitive and friendly. Instead, I had to pry all the information I wanted. The staff just didn't seem to be interested.
Was this review useful? 1 by mystical, 28 Jun 2005
Expensive.
Was this review useful? 1 by Anonymous, 08 Jun 2005

In the old days if someone complained about a dealer, he was usually shit stirring because he hadn't got what he wanted, but now most of the complaints seem reasonable and there are far more. Some will happily pay us the full price rather go into one!

We've got a quite a few dealers and they are our friends, most do pretty well and if they don't or we get customers complaining, we sack them quickly, but it seems to me there is a problem and that it's worth inviting comments on AOS. Dealers are a significant chunk of these Forums so they can make observations provided they don't hide behind a psuedonym.

Ashley

hi ashley,
i have read many of your postings, and can say honestly that you have been mostly profesional in your comments and answers to shall we say "at times" very trying characters on here.what you dont seem to get is that people no matter how well a product is reviewed, or even if it can be proven that its the best thing since sliced bread is people like to have a choice! and i think i speak for all of us on here you included, when i say we are all at the end of the day, music lovers, but we perceive things diffrently to each other. at the end of the day what i am trying to say is, as good as your procducts probably are, and can be proven with test gear and such that they are, people will still want to be able to choose! for instance, why arent we all driving round in ford mondeos! their exceptionaly good cars! [humour me here] lets look at its statistics, it has four wheels, seats five people, comfortably, it has reasonable fuel economy, it goes very well, its not ugly, and so on, but we dont all want one! if it were forced upon us, we would rebel, no matter how good it is!
people on here, [for what i have seen of them since i joined] get upset because they percieve what your about as threatning their ability to think and judge for themselves what they should be listening to and buying etc, me i dont see you that way, infact i voted and expressed my views that there shouldnt be any constraints on what people can and cant discuss on this forum! but my friend you will have to except that you cannot, and will not please everybody all of the time, so, stop beating yourself up!
if i ever get a chance to listen to any of your products, i will, and i will make up my own mind, and tell you my findings.
and by all-means look me up, see what i am about...
i used to get upset, and wonder why some people can be certain ways, but i learnt that people will be people no matter how you try to educate, or prove things to them, so concentrate on the ones that want your help,and apriciate what you do, and what your about, thats what i do...
anthony,TD...:gig:

Steve Toy
15-04-2008, 12:41
Brilliant post Anthony. I have a dislike for absolutism and a liking for freedom of choice. There is more than one way to skin a cat etc.

Some of us really are discerning and capable of making our own minds up.

Marco
15-04-2008, 13:05
I'll get to this later. Excellent thread! :)

Marco.

anthonyTD
15-04-2008, 13:16
Brilliant post Anthony. I have a dislike for absolutism and a liking for freedom of choice. There is more than one way to skin a cat etc.

Some of us really are discerning and capable of making our own minds up.

Good thing too, as i am afraid if we werent we may all be speaking german now!
no offence intended...:eyebrows:

Marco
15-04-2008, 13:35
Achtung Herr Svinehund!! :lolsign:

Marco.

Ashley James
15-04-2008, 13:57
hi ashley,
i have read many of your postings, and can say honestly that you have been mostly profesional in your comments and answers to shall we say "at times" very trying characters on here.what you dont seem to get is that people no matter how well a product is reviewed, or even if it can be proven that its the best thing since sliced bread is people like to have a choice! and i think i speak for all of us on here you included, when i say we are all at the end of the day, music lovers, but we perceive things diffrently to each other. at the end of the day what i am trying to say is, as good as your procducts probably are, and can be proven with test gear and such that they are, people will still want to be able to choose! for instance, why arent we all driving round in ford mondeos! their exceptionaly good cars! [humour me here] lets look at its statistics, it has four wheels, seats five people, comfortably, it has reasonable fuel economy, it goes very well, its not ugly, and so on, but we dont all want one! if it were forced upon us, we would rebel, no matter how good it is!
people on here, [for what i have seen of them since i joined] get upset because they percieve what your about as threatning their ability to think and judge for themselves what they should be listening to and buying etc, me i dont see you that way, infact i voted and expressed my views that there shouldnt be any constraints on what people can and cant discuss on this forum! but my friend you will have to except that you cannot, and will not please everybody all of the time, so, stop beating yourself up!
if i ever get a chance to listen to any of your products, i will, and i will make up my own mind, and tell you my findings.
and by all-means look me up, see what i am about...
i used to get upset, and wonder why some people can be certain ways, but i learnt that people will be people no matter how you try to educate, or prove things to them, so concentrate on the ones that want your help,and apriciate what you do, and what your about, thats what i do...
anthony,TD...:gig:

This has nothing to do with my products and everything to do with a widely perceived problem with retailers. The Forum comments I copied onto my posting came from people dissatisfied with the service they received from a hi fi shop, I've no idea what they were buying.

I think there is a tendency amongst people on Forums to assume that comments that are general are aimed at them personally. I've instanced auditory and perception experiments carried out by leading Universities to illustrate the problems of assessing hi fi that everyone has.

If intelligent discussions are ever going to take place, people need to ignore feelings that they have for or against others and they need to know that I don't do personal. I'm talking about problems we have assessing stuff as much as anyone on here.

The reason I mentioned ADM9s was to show sympathy for the controversy they've caused.

I think everyone knows that cars are good and Ford Mondeos very good, however they buy German cars for reasons of status, which also happens with hi fi, but there is a big difference between difference between bits of Hi Fi and a very small one between cars. Therefore you (the whole world and not you personally) need all the help you can get.

FORGET PERSONAL AND CONSIDER THE WHOLE PICTURE

Ashley James
15-04-2008, 14:02
JC Brum has made a good point too because Sky TV cut dealers out of the loop because all the research showed that it would twice as long to achieve the same market penetration if they used them!

Small shops of all sorts are failing in the UK, but not France because far too many of them don't deliver.

anthonyTD
15-04-2008, 14:10
This has nothing to do with my products and everything to do with a widely perceived problem with retailers. The Forum comments I copied onto my posting came from people dissatisfied with the service they received from a hi fi shop, I've no idea what they were buying.

I think there is a tendency amongst people on Forums to assume that comments that are general are aimed at them personally. I've instanced auditory and perception experiments carried out by leading Universities to illustrate the problems of assessing hi fi that everyone has.

If intelligent discussions are ever going to take place, people need to ignore feelings that they have for or against others and they need to know that I don't do personal. I'm talking about problems we have assessing stuff as much as anyone on here.

The reason I mentioned ADM9s was to show sympathy for the controversy they've caused.

I think everyone knows that cars are good and Ford Mondeos very good, however they buy German cars for reasons of status, which also happens with hi fi, but there is a big difference between difference between bits of Hi Fi and a very small one between cars. Therefore you (the whole world and not you personally) need all the help you can get.

FORGET PERSONAL AND CONSIDER THE WHOLE PICTURE

my comparison between cars and why people choose them is very relivent to hi fi and the diffrences are just as significant!
think about it ashley!!!
and by the way, i dont drive a mondeo, both my cars are german, one is very practical, but also very nice to drive, the other, well lets just say it brings a smile to my face every time i get in it!
anthony,TD...:eyebrows:

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 14:23
They bombed our chip shop !

Ashley James
15-04-2008, 14:24
I cut and pasted some most damning comments made about a hi fi dealer that I consider quite good if poorly organised, others are far worse and arrogant with it and most of the aggro I've had has been on these Forums has been instigated by dealers. This is what I thought needed dscsussing

I've got a German Bike and three British cars, the oldest of which is 59. My Hobby is restoring them and touring in them. I've even restored their old AM radios!

Ash

sastusbulbas
15-04-2008, 14:28
Goverment is to blame, Britain has went to the dogs!

I went to PC world yesterday, couldn't get peace to browse, couldnt get time to look at al the displays, couldn't get a straight answers about returns if faulty, couldn't get a reasonable demo, couldn't get a reasonable respone as to why a company which is part of a group should have different prices throughout their stores and web pages. (The Samsung 22" display varied from £180 to £250, and PC World Currys and Dixons are all one in the same, I could buy and reserve a 22" for £210 online with PC World, but would have to pay £250 for the privelage of going to the store to pick my preference then buy? Though Dixons have it online for £190.)

I was after a computer monitor, couldn't justify £300 for a 24", couldn't quite agree on a 22" Samsung as it looked softer than the smaller 20", but was higher up. HP (lesser spec) and Acer (dubious display colours) were dimissed, but would have liked more time to decide, ended up buying the 20" Samsung, the one I had decided on previous to going out to see, but thought better to look at monitors in the flesh first. Didn't learn any more than I had gleamed off the web.

The thing was, I felt I was being followed about the store and watched, questioned about what I was after, shaparoned to only specific items then the check out as if I was up to something, even got served by a security guard, and all because I had a large scar on my neck with nine staples in it. If I turned up in a suit or was a woman I would have been as free as those types were to browse.

I was going to buy a Graphics card too, but didn't bother.

Steve

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 14:29
Some of us really are discerning and capable of making our own minds up.

Thank-you Steven, you can be quite flattering, I almost over-came myself then. ;)

Your support is very becoming. :)

anthonyTD
15-04-2008, 14:35
I cut and pasted some most damning comments made about a hi fi dealer that I consider quite good if poorly organised, others are far worse and arrogant with it and most of the aggro I've had has been on these Forums has been instigated by dealers. This is what I thought needed dscsussing

I've got a German Bike and three British cars, the oldest of which is 59. My Hobby is restoring them and touring in them. I've even restored their old AM radios!

Ash
great! you see, if we look hard enough, we all have something else in common, apart from slagging each others hi fi off! [joke]:lol:
seriously though ashley, take a tip from someone who's already been rushed into hospital with a suspected heart atack, brought on by stress and worry at work, before you end up in your box way to early, and never get chance to spend all that hard earned cash...;)

Marco
15-04-2008, 14:55
They bombed our chip shop !

Svinehunds. Donner und blitzen!

Deutschland über alles!! :guns: :chainsaw:

:D

Marco.

Marco
15-04-2008, 15:24
Just a thought... JC and Ashley, did you serve Britain during the war and kick some ass?

Marco.

P.S I'll reply to this thread more seriously later :)

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 16:12
I served mostly with the girls from the tennis club, in the sixties, and in the changing rooms.

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 16:13
Ashley is much, much, older than me. :)

Marco
15-04-2008, 16:22
I served mostly with the girls from the tennis club, in the sixties, and in the changing rooms.


Pity mobile phones with cameras weren't invented then... :eyebrows:

We must share stories about encounters with girls in tennis club changing rooms sometime. I've had a few 'escapades' of that nature myself...

I grew up in quite a posh part of Glasgow (yes they do exist!) and the 'daddy's girls' were randier than the local scrubbers ;)

Wow, this is now way, way off-topic :lol:

Marco.

Ashley James
15-04-2008, 16:22
I arrived as a consequence of the celebrations that took place when it finished!

I'm not sure JC was conceived in the conventional way, he could even be from another Planet. And he's not honest about his age!

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 16:23
Try a bit of this, it's 1934 (pre-war), the cars are wonderful and the people are starving and out of work. All because of a bad deal at the end of 1918.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckrk1iqYdfM

See if you can spot your grand-dad. :)

snapper
15-04-2008, 16:28
I grew up in quite a posh part of Glasgow (yes they do exist!) and the 'daddy's girls' were randier than the local scrubbers ;)



Marco.



Especially those 'daddy's girls' that frequented Whitecraigs tennis club.


:eyebrows:

Marco
15-04-2008, 16:36
Snaps knows the score. I've been to a few of the parties where it was de rigeur to 'soil a fresh one', if you get me ;)

Marco.

Ashley James
15-04-2008, 16:43
My father reckons the war would have been over a damn site quicker if we'd had the German's music, he says ours would put anyone off fighting.

Marco
15-04-2008, 17:03
Yeah some Rammstein would have gone down well! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Chris Frost
15-04-2008, 17:05
Anyhow the reason that I've started this thread is because this morning I needed the telephone number of one who hasn't paid his bill, he sells very little and is always late paying. I searched google and came up with a forum for shops in his area and where the service he and the other give is commented on.

Nice shop, interesting products. Knew their stuff.
Was this review useful? by Teaser, 03 Jan 2008
Staff here are rude and dismissive. Won't be using this place again.
Was this review useful? 1 by Andrea Shaw, 07 Feb 2007
Gave item for upgrade. Delayed. Numerous unreturned phone calls to find out what was happening. Did not even phone when item arrived back. Rubbish.
Was this review useful? 1 by Anonymous, 22 Jun 2006
Top of the range. You can't get much better than this.
Was this review useful? by Anonymous, 21 Jun 2006
Top of the range hardware and services. If you have £100,000+ to spend then these guys are for you.
Was this review useful? by Anonymous, 31 Jul 2005
I found the person there quite unhelpful. Normally when I go into a hi-fi shop the staff are inquisitive and friendly. Instead, I had to pry all the information I wanted. The staff just didn't seem to be interested.
Was this review useful? 1 by mystical, 28 Jun 2005
Expensive.
Was this review useful? 1 by Anonymous, 08 Jun 2005

In the old days if someone complained about a dealer, he was usually shit stirring because he hadn't got what he wanted, but now most of the complaints seem reasonable and there are far more. Some will happily pay us the full price rather go into one!

We've got a quite a few dealers and they are our friends, most do pretty well and if they don't or we get customers complaining, we sack them quickly, but it seems to me there is a problem and that it's worth inviting comments on AOS. Dealers are a significant chunk of these Forums so they can make observations provided they don't hide behind a psuedonym.

Ashley
I know this dealer through selling to the company when working for a distributor. I also know the type of client that they want to deal with, and also the type that they don't. The review site has no back story to each comment, so with respect I don't think you are being fair in using those "reviews" to support your argument.

You chose not to name the dealer so neither shall I, but it is important for other readers here to understand a little more about the dealer when judging the comments that prompted you to start this thread.

This company is at the top end of the market. Much of what they sell is integrated in to bespoke whole-house AV & control designs. Many of their customers "have people" to deal with specification and purchasing. So although the company has a retail frontage and it sells typical Hi-Fi and AV brands it is very far from a typical Hi-Fi dealer. However, this distinction isn't made clear from any manufacturer's Dealer List that I've seen.

The company is very focussed on what it does and the type of clients it works for. Just as you wouldn't expect to buy a £99 micro system from a proper Hi-Fi dealer then similarly this is not the right dealer if you want to shoot the breeze chatting about the latest interconnect.

Please understand, I have no need to defend this dealer and their actions; rude is rude. But there are times when a prospective customer is barking up the wrong tree and won't be happy to be told so no matter how gently one breaks the news.

Ashley, I'm all for 'outing' bad dealers, but both sides of a story need to be heard first. Equally I find that customers are more receptive if I've helped them to make their own discoveries rather than spoon-feeding them a solution.

Regards

Chris

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 17:49
One of the reviewers suggests spending £100,000 , fortunately we know better these days, although I have heard that a few dealers are still chasing the very small "footballer" market.

We are able to recognize the "charlatans" who claim to be "High-end" when reality shows their stuff to be largely expensive junk.

Good loudspeakers will never be cheap, but with digital sources and modern electronics available only in the last year or so, the very best system is unlikely to exceed £10k.

Leaving t/t's out of it for the moment, (but everyone with a record collection needs one) it's very difficult to justify spending more than £1000 on a source. It'll be a computer of course, because nothing else is required.

That leaves dac, amps, and spkrs. Well we know about those already, and we have upto £9k available. I use £1k for the lot.

"Hi-end" is dead, no wonder this dealer can't pay his bills, and if the other dealers don't wake up and realize what's happening they'll soon be out of business too.

I don't mean you Chris btw:)

Marco
15-04-2008, 17:54
Leaving t/t's out of it for the moment, (but everyone with a record collection needs one) it's very difficult to justify spending more than £1000 on a source. It'll be a computer of course, because nothing else is required.


Hahahaha... Dream on, sweetheart! :lol:

Marco.

Ashley James
15-04-2008, 18:22
JC if you have a look at Graham's or Access Control Systems Websites you'll see that hi fi is a small part of what's being installed, the rest is automatic curtains, garage doors, lighting, lavatory flushes and music coming out of every orifice. Hence the very high prices, however Access Control reckon they are doing it now for a third of what it cost a few years ago and this is what has made it difficult for the hi enders who got involved, they weren't able to keep pace with pace of change and the falling prices.

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 18:51
Hahahaha... Dream on, sweetheart! :lol:

Marco.

What are you suggesting Marco ? :scratch: :mental: :)

Marco
15-04-2008, 19:03
I should have thought it was self-explanatory ;)

Marco.

Chris Frost
15-04-2008, 19:27
One of the reviewers suggests spending £100,000 , fortunately we know better these days, although I have heard that a few dealers are still chasing the very small "footballer" market.

We are able to recognize the "charlatans" who claim to be "High-end" when reality shows their stuff to be largely expensive junk.

Good loudspeakers will never be cheap, but with digital sources and modern electronics available only in the last year or so, the very best system is unlikely to exceed £10k.

Leaving t/t's out of it for the moment, (but everyone with a record collection needs one) it's very difficult to justify spending more than £1000 on a source. It'll be a computer of course, because nothing else is required.

That leaves dac, amps, and spkrs. Well we know about those already, and we have upto £9k available. I use £1k for the lot.

"Hi-end" is dead, no wonder this dealer can't pay his bills, and if the other dealers don't wake up and realize what's happening they'll soon be out of business too.

I don't mean you Chris btw:)
Thanks for that last bit, JC.

I need to ask you to do me a favour. Please ditch the "charlatans/high-end/expensive junk" etc rhetoric, will you?

I know you love your ADM9's, and I'm not trying to have a go, but please for the love of God stop ramming it down my (our) throat. We all get the message mate, honestly we do, so please just ease off. OK? [Big pile of positive, lovely, cuddly smilies :)]

There are markets in which £100,000 would be considered a small spend. :eek: And believe it or not, footballers are not the pinnacle of the high spend market. The fact is that you'll never hear about most of the high net-worth individuals that spend really big bucks. They get on with their lives and enjoy their money very discretely. The very concept of these people wasting their time with something as mundane as ripping a CD is quite frankly laughable.

High-end means different things to different people. Try to stay open to the idea that there is life outside of pure Hi-Fi. The people that inhabit that world have some very different priorities.

Regards

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 19:52
Chris, tell me honestly, are you selling systems for more than £100k per sale ?

Chris Frost
15-04-2008, 20:13
No. Go back and reread my first post. I used to be a supplier to this dealer and to several others all in the same high-spend market. I also supplied dealers who are involved in the marine market. My knowledge of those markets comes from working very closely with those dealers selling to high net-worth individuals.

Edit: To put it into perspective, I've been involved with jobs where the budget for the kitchen work surfaces has been £20K. That's just the bloody bits of marble or whatever they used.

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 20:34
Well I don't want to upset you Chris, or anyone for that matter.

I am aware that there are a few people who spend Money frivolously, the enquiry into Elton John's spending habits, springs to mind.

However I don't think Ashley was talking about that kind of situation and neither was I.

I doubt you'll find a better cross-section of wealthy people than AVI owners, some of whom I know personally, including a few who could buy and sell the dealer you mention several million times over.

Having money is nothing to do with "vulgarity spending", just as excellence in sound reproduction is nothing to do with "mega-bucks" cost.

In spite of you kind and supportive remarks for this dealer, I know personally of at least two people to whom he owes money on an overdue basis.

With the greatest of respect for your feelings Chris I do know a bit about business, and I suggest we have this chat again when you have made your first million.

In the mean time don't pin your hopes on the Beckham's and Abramovitch's of this world, there isn't enough to make a good market out of it. Stick to what sensible people want, it's all you need for the best sound available.

Please don't be offended, and kind regards, JC. :)

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 20:53
I should have thought it was self-explanatory ;)

Marco.

Well it ain't, ...... whaddyamean ? :scratch: :)

Mike
15-04-2008, 21:05
How about this for 'high end' then? :eyebrows: I bet there's no iPlod in that little lot.

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10834

Yikes!

Marco
15-04-2008, 21:21
Well it ain't, ...... whaddyamean ? :scratch: :)


Because there are plenty of superb £1000+ sources available, and none of them are bloody computers either!

Also, computers are not "all that is required" in audio for many people, certainly those who value performance over convenience and will continue to do so no matter what happens with freakin' computers (count me in). But this is old hat - you know where many people here and I stand on this. However it's my job to reign you in and keep things real when you go all absolutist :lol:

Marco.

Chris Frost
15-04-2008, 21:31
Well I don't want to upset you Chris, or anyone for that matter.

I am aware that there are a few people who spend Money frivolously, the enquiry into Elton John's spending habits, springs to mind. [I doubt they'd think their spending frivolous, and anyway, what right have you to comment? It's up to them how they enjoy their money.]

However I don't think Ashley was talking about that kind of situation and neither was I.[So then why single out this dealer?]

I doubt you'll find a better cross-section of wealthy people than AVI owners, some of whom I know personally, including a few who could buy and sell the dealer you mention several million times over.[Err, great. What's that got to do with anything? :confused:]

Having money is nothing to do with "vulgarity spending", just as excellence in sound reproduction is nothing to do with "mega-bucks" cost.[[I]Vulgarity spending?! Oh my god. You've really no clue how that part of the market works have you. :mental:]

In spite of you kind and supportive remarks for this dealer, I know personally of at least two people to whom he owes money on an overdue basis.[I was very clear that I wasn't defending the dealer, but simply illustrating that there are two sides to every story.

With the greatest of respect for your feelings Chris I do know a bit about business, [Great! Doesn't show by your responses so far...but great!.and I suggest we have this chat again when you have made your first million.[Again, relevance please??? :confused:

In the mean time don't pin your hopes on the Beckham's and Abramovitch's of this world, there isn't enough to make a good market out of it. [Well, I've had some business from one of those two. Have you?Stick to what sensible people want, it's all you need for the best sound available. [Oh give me a break :doh:.

Please don't be offended, and kind regards, JC. :)
:D

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 21:43
Because there are plenty of superb £1000+ sources available, and none of them are bloody computers either!

Also, computers are not "all that is required" in audio for many people, certainly those who value performance over convenience and will continue to do so no matter what happens with freakin' computers (count me in). But this is old hat - you know where many people here and I stand on this. However it's my job to reign you in and keep things real when you go all absolutist :lol:

Marco.

But all that "legacy" stuff sounds less good than a computer, what do you think has been making the music for the last twenty years ? :doh:

Doesn't matter whether it's CD's, DVD's, SACD's, Radio, whatever, computers made it all, and will give the best reproduction of it.

The only exceptions are tapes and records which carry an analogue.

I did say excepting t/t's and who uses tapes these days as a serious source.
:)

Marco
15-04-2008, 22:00
But all that "legacy" stuff sounds less good than a computer


Not to my ears and those of many others it doesn't!

Don't take this the wrong way, JC, but both my Sony CDP & DAC and T/T would piss, from an enormous height, over your or any other computer source in terms of sound quality - and I don't give a toss about measurements. We'll use our ears. It's about what sounds most like real music.

Are you a betting man? If so, how about a little wager?

I'll bring down my Sony transport and DAC and we'll plug it into your system, if that's possible, and I'll bet you £1000 it outperforms your computer source playing the same music on CD. If your set-up wins I'll give you a £1000, but if it doesn't you give me £1000. I'll do a write-up of the session on the forum. We'll get someone else who's neutral to give the final vote on the winner if we're not in agreement.

I am deadly serious, btw, and Birmingham isn't that far away! :eyebrows:

What do you say?

Marco.

Ashley James
15-04-2008, 22:04
This is a daft argument. Virtually all music is made on computers and has been for years. I remember being in the States 20 years ago in the company of Bruce Leek who was mastering and editing Telarc Recordings (known for their sound quality) on an old Black and White Mac. Later on I saw various famous composers and producers playing music into Macs, they didn't just record it, they scored it at the same time. Now the most powerful Music Software in the World is Apple's, Pixar Productions and part of Walt Disney is owned by Steve Jobs and Blockbuster Movies are made largely on Computers too.

A Hard disc is a better place to read your music from than a CD and the User Interface of a Computer is better as well as your being able to do a multitude of other things at the same time.

A decent computer makes more sense than anything else as a front end for hi fi system provided it's got the right DAC like an Edirol UA25. You can even download Audio Companion and record vinyl into it so you don't have to play it and wear it out.

If you love the ceremony of setting up and tuning in a traditional separates systems, fine, each to his own, I'm not keen on Max Mosely's method of entertainment but if he's enjoying himself and I haven't got to watch I'm happy, and it's the same for me with Hi Fi masochists, but surely the most extreme of you, would accept the computer is king, provided it's quiet, attractive and has the right interface.

This is the software for Music production: http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/ukstore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=5C3F308D&fnode=home/shop_mac/software/music_audio&nplm=MA797

Ash

Marco
15-04-2008, 22:13
This is a daft argument. Virtually all music is made on computers and has been for years.


I don't care, and it's not a daft argument. That obviously doesn't explain everything because I've yet to hear a computer-based system produce the standard of sound reproduction I'm used to hearing with my system, regardless of all the 'bumph' you've just written, Ashley.


but surely the most extreme of you, would accept the computer is king, provided it's quiet, attractive and has the right interface.


I'll let others speak for themselves but I most certainly wouldn't!!!

Let's cut to the chase and sort it out once and for all as I have suggested. It's time to debunk this myth you're perpetrating. It really is the biggest load of absolutist bollocks. The proof of the pudding is in the listening.

Are you a man or a mouse? And this applies to JC, too ;)

Marco.

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 22:57
Marco, I just don't understand how you can claim that a consumer cdp, can play a digital file better than the computer that made it. To quote you "both my Sony CDP & DAC and T/T would piss, from an enormous height,"

Well lets put t/ts aside for the moment because they're a separate issue. You are suggesting there's a large difference.

Would that difference still be there if the computer were plugged into your dac ? :)

Marco
15-04-2008, 23:10
Why don't we find out?

I've heard my mate's Helios media player streaming lossless files through my DAC and it's very good, but some of the claims you're making with computer audio are ridiculous, in terms of its sonic performance. It's not automatically better in every circumstance. And many £1000+ CDPs are better than computer-based sources - not all of them, granted, but the best ones I've heard are. My Sony transport and DAC is a £5.5k combination, and believe me it sounds like one, too! And there are others of its ilk on the market.

Like I said, I don't care about the technical assertions either Ashley or you are making, for me it boils down to one thing and one thing only - what it sounds like to my ears within a system set-up.

So, I'll ask you again, and please stop skirting around the issue... Are you up for the bet or not?

Marco.

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 23:26
Why don't we find out?

I've heard my mate's Helios media player streaming lossless files through my DAC and it's very good, but some of the claims you're making with computer audio are ridiculous, in terms of its sonic performance. It's not automatically better in every circumstance. And many £1000+ CDPs are better than computer-based sources - not all of them, granted, but the best ones I've heard are. My Sony transport and DAC is a £5.5k combination, and believe me it sounds like one, too! And there are others of its ilk on the market.

Like I said, I don't care about the technical assertions either Ashley or you are making, for me it boils down to one thing and one thing only - what it sounds like to my ears within a system set-up.

So, I'll ask you again, and please stop skirting around the issue... Are you up for the bet or not?

Marco.

Yes if I can be the sole judge :)

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 23:29
What you are suggesting means using your sony cdp as a transport only, right ?

Then why do you think a computer would be worse ?

I don't think you've ever tested this properly.

Marco
15-04-2008, 23:34
'Fraid not. You judge my CDP & DAC and I'll judge your computer source and ADM9s. Then we'll compare notes. I'll even bring my Spendors down and let you hear what a real pair of speakers is like ;)

For starters I guarantee that my DAC will easily improve your computer source, and we'll see what else happens from there...

So when are we doing this? Your call.

Marco.

P.S Make sure your wallet is full :eyebrows:

Marco
15-04-2008, 23:36
Oh, and could you please list your full system components here so I know the intended test system?

Cheers.

Marco.

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 23:36
Your sony is a 20yr old design with no lasers mechs available nowadays, I just cannot understand why anyone wants to use a cdp at all. It's just a machine for playing a digital file. I know computers can do that better.

jcbrum
15-04-2008, 23:46
"'Fraid not. You judge my CDP & DAC and I'll judge your computer source and ADM9s."

So you haven't accepted my terms then ?

I'm not backing your ears with my money ! bollox to that !

I think the bake off would be interesting, but I think we should hold it on independent territory, and probably invite Ash and a couple of others as seconds.

I'm happy to feed my computer into your dac, my dac, adm9's, whatever !

Are we comparing cdp -v- mac, or full system -v- full system ? :mental:

Marco
15-04-2008, 23:49
Your sony is a 20yr old design with no lasers mechs available nowadays, I just cannot understand why anyone wants to use a cdp at all. It's just a machine for playing a digital file. I know computers can do that better.


Well as I've said let's see.

PM me details of when you would like this test to take place. One thing we can do is compare iPod shuffles to my CDP, and bollocks like that, which you've said are superior.

You've got this ridiculous mania with old designs being automatically inferior, which is nonsense. Some old designs were very good and haven't been surpassed! And for your information you can still get laser mechs for a Sony X-777ES, not that this matters of course in the straight sound quality comparison we're doing.

In the meantime, please list your system components as requested.

Marco.

Steve Toy
15-04-2008, 23:57
I like it Marco. Not that I would be so bold but you are seriously putting your money where your keyboard is. Good stuff. And if I were to offer a small wager on the outcome, fairly assessed, you know where it would go...

Mr. C
15-04-2008, 23:58
I am happy to adjudicate here, complete with full measurement suite.

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 00:03
I don't use an iPod, but I can borrow a shuffle if you like, do you not have one ?

If what you want to compare is sony cdp -v- MacBook -v- Shuffle then that's ok, we can do that on your system, except that a shuffle is analogue out only.

I don't usually include a shuffle in my argument, I think you might be confusing me with Ash in that respect, but I don't mind.

I think all this stems from my statement that a computer and a record player are the only sources you need, and you disagreed, saying there are many sub £1k sources to be preferred, and quoting you sony cdp as an example.

If that's true then all we need is MacBook -v- Sony cdp ?

Marco
16-04-2008, 00:04
Nice one, Tony. Your offer is accepted (by me, anyway) :)

Steve, it's the only way to put this one to bed ;)

Incidentally, JC, the final judge has to be someone neutral. By all means bring Ashley along but if, by some miracle, the result is not clear cut then the person who makes the final call cannot be biased towards your set-up or mine.

Marco.

Marco
16-04-2008, 00:06
I'm still waiting for you to list your full system componets, JC - please do so now before we go any further.

Marco.

sastusbulbas
16-04-2008, 00:06
Hmm,

The simplicity of the argument is in itself stupendous.

Mac's make music therefore are ideal for musical reproduction.
It is not that far away from claiming the Yamaha NS-10 is a superb monitor, it must be as it is used in studios?

I myself am aware a modern top spec MAC with £320 (I am sure studio's use slightly more expensive software in some instances) of music software may seem to be the be all and end all, but I have not got as much faith in its end result.
And I do think many studios use of the MAC happens along side some very expensive software and hardware, NOT the same as claiming the Mac itself is the be all and end all.

Problem is there can be a performance side, make music or play music, and one does not always entail the other.

I have yet to see ANY review of any computer or server system which compares with a same cost CD player alternative in any magazine. And I do not see many of those server/media player as PC for more money. They do attempt to strip away some of the detrimental computer workings and such of the computer environment.

We may see improvements in these areas, but I also feel we have seen backward steps in audio/music mastering and reproduction with many wanting more for less and trying to use cheaper technology to implement high end quality on a shoe string. One of the reasons many find legacy analogue kit and recordings superior or more enjoyable is due to the bastardisation of modern music with technology and profit.

Sadly not many £2k high end audio only media servers are reviewed as any better than cheaper CD player alternatives. Just like many DAC's have a stagnant not better but different sound due to manufacturers lack of imagination or effort. I still think Chord, Tube Technology and Benchmark were a few of the better efforts in recent years, but as we have witnessed, today's consumer market is less interested in such matters.

DAC's became a little like AV amps, with hyped up over-specified bling being pushed at one end and others doing the sub £100 internet wonder box on the other.

Sadly though, I feel it will be a little time yet before computers or remote controlled hard drives replace all Legacy High End CD transports for many of us. I use my own computer more than my CD transport for music, but this IS due to convenience and not performance. I still find computer audio two dimensional, thin and un-involving, lacking body and substenance like a powder packet soup.

Though I am sure modification of a laptop and turning it into a Digital out Media device with the right software and not a computer OS can work well.

Hell even most modern DAC's are not that more musical than some of the old 16bit stuff, with specification, up-sampling, oversampling, 24bit etc seeming to be used as a right of passage to expected musical performance regardless (a bit like a lovely warm bath with half a bottle of Radox bubble bath in it). Still, some NOS manufacturers seem to think differently also, and some people do get a surprise at apparent bass weight, solidity and full sound some old well designed 16bit kit can produce.

What was I ranting about :scratch:

:confused:

Steve

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 00:08
Malvern might be a good location for everyone ?

Marco
16-04-2008, 00:11
Ahem, please read my last post!

Marco.

sastusbulbas
16-04-2008, 00:12
If that's true then all we need is MacBook -v- Sony cdp ?



I would like a Macbook myself, but costs too much at the moment....

Well a £950 Apple MacBook, MB404/B, 2.4GHz SuperDrive with 13.3 Inch Display, Black to be precise.

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 00:16
I said I'm only betting money if I'm sole judge, I'm not spending cash on anyones ears but mine. Otherwise I think it's a good game, and suggest each entrant and each "judge" is entitled to state his un-biased opinion. Otherwise if I were you, I'd stitch me up, If you know what I mean.

Anyway Marco I want you to be able to lose gracefully ;)

Marco
16-04-2008, 00:18
Meanwhile while I'm waiting for your list of system components...


I don't usually include a shuffle in my argument, I think you might be confusing me with Ash in that respect, but I don't mind.


From this thread:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=319


jcbrum: It's very simple for any one to evaluate. Simply purchase an iPod shuffle for £39 from any Apple UK store, and plug it into the line in on your hifi instead of your cd player.

Personally I doubt very much that you'll be disappointed with the sound, but the best result is by playing iTunes directly from the laptop/pc over a digital connection to a dac.

good dacs don't have to cost more than £50-£150.

The days of mega-bucks hifi are over.


Oh, and let's see if that's the case with "good DACs". Can you get hold of one in that price range to compare with the Sony?

:)

Marco.

Marco
16-04-2008, 00:20
I'm still waiting for you to list your full system componets, JC - please do so now before we go any further.

Marco.

Let's hear it. I won't ask you again!!!

Marco.

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 00:21
Ahem, please read my last post!

Marco.

Sorry Marco the page flipped over and I didn't see it.

Are we doing sony v mac ? in which case my kit is a MacBook pro.

If I need a dac, I'll bring a Fireface and a UA25.

If it's full kit then full AVI lineup.

I'm quite happy to use your kit if you wish, with some reservations about dodgy valve amps.

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 00:25
Ok in view of your quote on the one occasion when I seem to have suggested a shuffle, I'll borrow one and include it.

What cd do you want to use as a source ?

Marco
16-04-2008, 00:25
Sounds fine.

Do you also have a Garrard 301?

Marco.

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 00:33
Yes but it's in a lab style console and three feet tall ! and I don't wan't to move it. It's not in the listening room anyway because I use it for transcription of 78's

I think including record players is clouding the issue, that's analogue stuff, but I don't mind digitizing one of your LP tracks and comparing the playback.

Marco
16-04-2008, 00:36
No that's fine, I was just curious. What cartridge and arm are you using and how does it connect to your computer set-up - what phono stage have you got?

This has got nothing to do with the test but it's something I'd like to know.

Marco.

Chris Frost
16-04-2008, 00:38
Well, well grapple fans, what an interesting three hours it has been since I last posted.

In the red corner...

The Italian stallion Marco, weighing in at £1000 with a heavy weight CDP/DAC combo and a very simple offer of fair fight. "Let's test it and someone impartial can be the judge." is his battle cry.

In the blue corner

JCBrum, the Midlands Mangler, weighing in at ???? ...er...well nothing at the moment but with the promise of a Macbook and a load of preconditions (including him being sole judge of the contest. Yeah right :lol:)

All a pretty significant climbdown from the prechallenge posturing from the Midlands Mangler a few short hours ago...


it's very difficult to justify spending more than £1000 on a source. It'll be a computer of course, because nothing else is required.

That leaves dac, amps, and spkrs. Well we know about those already, and we have upto £9k available. I use £1k for the lot.
:lol:

And please give a big round of applause for your Master of Ceremonies, with a full suite of measuring gear, The Magnificent Mr.C :mex:

This is one showdown I wouldn't miss for the world. I'll book my ticket on the front row now :clap:

Marco
16-04-2008, 00:43
Sadly though, I feel it will be a little time yet before computers or remote controlled hard drives replace all Legacy High End CD transports for many of us. I use my own computer more than my CD transport for music, but this IS due to convenience and not performance. I still find computer audio two dimensional, thin and un-involving, lacking body and substenance like a powder packet soup.


That's exactly what I think too, Steve. Care to be a judge? ;)

Marco.

sastusbulbas
16-04-2008, 00:45
They could always YouTube it, then it could be dubbed over n stuff....:lolsign:

sastusbulbas
16-04-2008, 00:47
That's exactly what I think too, Steve. Care to be a judge? ;)

Marco.

What of? The soup lunch or musical extravaganza :piano::lol:

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 00:55
No that's fine, I was just curious. What cartridge and arm are you using and how does it connect to your computer set-up - what phono stage have you got?

This has got nothing to do with the test but it's something I'd like to know.

Marco.

I'm currently using a Syrinx LE 2 (iirc) a black one, with an ortofon stereo mm cart, with a range of specially ground stylii from Expert Pickups.

I don't use a phono stage, I put the cart o/p straight into the fireface and record digitally exactly what is on the record. It sounds awful.

I then manipulate it digitally to correct the record and re-save the file and put it in my library. Sometimes it's beneficial to record it at the wrong speed, say 16 instead of 33, or more likely 45 instead of 78.

It's very important to measure the groove and select the appropriate stylus.

Most of the time I'm working with records about 80 yrs old but I'd do the same with 70's or 80's stuff I expect. But you can buy or download all that stuff anyway.

I have two Lenco's, and a Thorens 160 and 124, a dual 505, and some others, but I never use them. I bought the 301 NOS from someone who never plinthed it up, and changed over the one I was using and sold it.

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 01:04
Well, well grapple fans, what an interesting three hours it has been since I last posted.

In the red corner...

The Italian stallion Marco, weighing in at £1000 with a heavy weight CDP/DAC combo and a very simple offer of fair fight. "Let's test it and someone impartial can be the judge." is his battle cry.

In the blue corner

JCBrum, the Midlands Mangler, weighing in at ???? ...er...well nothing at the moment but with the promise of a Macbook and a load of preconditions (including him being sole judge of the contest. Yeah right :lol:)

All a pretty significant climbdown from the prechallenge posturing from the Midlands Mangler a few short hours ago...

:lol:

And please give a big round of applause for your Master of Ceremonies, with a full suite of measuring gear, The Magnificent Mr.C :mex:

This is one showdown I wouldn't miss for the world. I'll book my ticket on the front row now :clap:

No climb down Chris, Marco's "Italian" from Glasgow, a "fair" fight is not a natural assumption.

I'm just not betting my money on his ears, - his money on my ears is ok, but he isn't having that either. So we'll have to disagree on the money side of the bet. Anyway I've never found anyone on any forum who is impartial where I'm concerned, especially not mods. ;)

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 01:07
It's 2:20 am, goodnight fight fans :)

Marco
16-04-2008, 01:12
Ok, JC, as I now need to get to bed let's wrap this up...

PM me and we'll thrash out a mutually suitable date for the test. I'll then check with Tony if it suits him, and with that all done, I'll publish a date and a venue for the event on the forum.

We also need to finalise who the judges will be, and whether you're man enough for money to be involved ;)

Like Chris says, my terms are fair, whereas you're fannying about and acting like a big dithering girl :ner:

Anyway, let me know what your intentions are and some dates.

To be continued...

I'm off to bed now.

Ciao,
Marco.

SteveW
16-04-2008, 05:04
Crikey...to think I nearly missed this.
The sound of bluffs being called at the OK Corral..

Marco
16-04-2008, 06:40
I'm currently using a Syrinx LE 2 (iirc) a black one, with an ortofon stereo mm cart, with a range of specially ground stylii from Expert Pickups.

I don't use a phono stage, I put the cart o/p straight into the fireface and record digitally exactly what is on the record. It sounds awful.


I'm not surprised with such a crap cartridge at the helm. Why not use a better quality cartridge to start with, or is that too simple? :scratch:

I don't profess to know anything about this (to me) bizarre recording method of yours but it all seems a bit arse about face, starting with a crap source signal then manipulating it to sound 'perfect' to your ears/measurement criteria. I always thought that the less things were buggered about with the better - 'source first', and all that.

But I guess I'm 'old fashioned'! I just make recordings direct from my superb T/T (fitted with high quality cartridge) through a high quality preamp and phono stage into a high quality (Nakamichi) tape deck (yes, remember those!) with high quality chrome tape (ha ha!) using high quality cables, and the simple all-analogue recordings sound utterly wonderful. Digital recordings to me never sound as good. I'm someone who used to prefer AAD as opposed to DDD recorded CDs when they were originally marked that way - yes, a veritable lunatic. So what am I missing? Educate me...

Marco.

Mr. C
16-04-2008, 07:26
First a decision must be taken on how the test is to be formed. Simply saying the sound has better bass or treble from system 'a' or 'b' is not acceptable.
I feel a panel of say 3 independant listeners should make the decision regarding this, to be selected by someone outside the issue.
Next the tracks used etc.
I can supply most manners of systems, this way no one is favored either one way or another.
At the end I would like to throw a standard off the shelf sub £1k player into the mix, as well as a top of the line server based system (same rules) just to demonstrate the two extremes of the cultures.

NRG
16-04-2008, 07:29
Not wishing to step into the middle of a wrestling match but aren't you really just going to test DAC's or the suitability of a DAC to match the source player? I can't see how you are going to prove that a MAC/Harddrive is better than a high end CDP at pulling data of the storage medium... :confused: Certainly not in a subjective manner.

You both have stong convictions and I doubt you will come to an agreement! :mental:


Originally Posted by sastusbulbas
Sadly though, I feel it will be a little time yet before computers or remote controlled hard drives replace all Legacy High End CD transports for many of us. I use my own computer more than my CD transport for music, but this IS due to convenience and not performance. I still find computer audio two dimensional, thin and un-involving, lacking body and substenance like a powder packet soup.

But that is most likely not down to it being a 'computer' but the choice of DAC / Soundcard. Have you heard any of the modified Squeezebox devices out there? They certainly do not sound thin or uninvolving given a good external DAC.

Ashley James
16-04-2008, 07:42
NRG you're a voice of sanity!

And Marco's DAC will be good but modern ones are noticeably better.
He wouldn't believe me when I told him that the Burr Brown 20 bit Multi Bit ones that appeared in the early nineties were better and that they've gone on improving since then.

He's got a lovely old CD player and DAC and it will last where the current ones won't and that ought to be enough.

He's very naughty!

NRG
16-04-2008, 07:43
First a decision must be taken on how the test is to be formed. Simply saying the sound has better bass or treble from system 'a' or 'b' is not acceptable.
I feel a panel of say 3 independant listeners should make the decision regarding this, to be selected by someone outside the issue.
Next the tracks used etc.
I can supply most manners of systems, this way no one is favored either one way or another.
At the end I would like to throw a standard off the shelf sub £1k player into the mix, as well as a top of the line server based system (same rules) just to demonstrate the two extremes of the cultures.


May as well go for the whole 9 yards and perform a DBT! :lolsign: That will really guarantee no meaningful results will be produced. ;)

Party on guys!

:gig:

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 08:03
I too agree with NRG, but I thought that's what Marco wanted to do, and that is why I won't bet money on the results of his ears. In fact NRG I'm not sure that all we're doing isn't just checking Marco's ears.

I think we should each stipulate a couple of tracks and have the cd's available.

Mr. C
16-04-2008, 08:09
The BB PMC63K and 1702's were indeed very good dac chips, however things have more on with some pace lol

anthonyTD
16-04-2008, 09:01
i think this thread has gone way off track of what it was intended to point out!
that is, that we all tune our systems to sound like what we percieve real music to sound like, the thing about all music being recorded via digital, or computers over the last 10-20 years is a valid one,however,even though the main point of doing things this way is to capture everything as it was played out, and to not lose or add anything to the original performance, i find it interesting that you digital guys compare the sonic qualities of diffrent dacs, diffrent interfaces,and diffrent computers! isnt this just the same as people using diffrent types of amplification, and diffrent speakers, etc, to get where they want to be in terms of producing music the way they want it!
:eyebrows:

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 09:07
"i think this thread has gone way off track of what it was intended to point out!"

I agree. It's due to defective moderation. ;) :eyebrows: :ner:

griffo104
16-04-2008, 10:08
Crikey what a thread. Start off discussing retailers and up in a CDP v computer fight. I do miss those vinyl V CDP arguments :)

While being primarily a TT fan, although owning a large cd collection, I've always been a bit anti-computers, it doesn't help that I work on them everyday and don't want to go near one in my own time.

I had a chance to listen to two differing squeezeboxs over the last few monts. One a simple SB3 in to a TAG DAC and I was pleasantly surprised regarding the quality, better than I thought it would be. Secondly an SB+ via Jeff Rowland amp and some Focals, and it was a bit of a disappointment, ok we were also using a Esoteric X03-se which frankly was in a comppletely different league, imo. However it was still interesting hear the comparison between these three digital front ends.

Imo, computer based formats will get better, Linn have shown what is capable with the DS and true master recordings being made availalble of their catalogue. This technology is only going to get cheaper, will be easier to wirelessly stream around the house which will allow easier multi-room applications to be made.

For me a decent computer based system WILL easily compete with a £1k cdp, I've heard what's possible with it, however it still has a while to go before it gets up there with the Esoterics of this world, although the Linn DS does show you that even that gap is closing very quickly.

If you need another Brummie with no particular preference for digital (analogue does still rule) and with easy access to Tony's place then I would be happy to help out adjudicating such an event.

anthonyTD
16-04-2008, 10:32
i think this thread has gone way off track of what it was intended to point out!
that is, that we all tune our systems to sound like what we percieve real music to sound like, the thing about all music being recorded via digital, or computers over the last 10-20 years is a valid one,however,even though the main point of doing things this way is to capture everything as it was played out, and to not lose or add anything to the original performance, i find it interesting that you digital guys compare the sonic qualities of diffrent dacs, diffrent interfaces,and diffrent computers! isnt this just the same as people using diffrent types of amplification, and diffrent speakers, etc, to get where they want to be in terms of producing music the way they want it!
:eyebrows:

I will elobrate further,
we all agree that digital equipment has moved on at an alarming pace since it was first used to record/playback music right? and we agree that the sonic qualities of dacs, and chips etc, have also moved on, right?
well, surely the reason for recording in this way was because we are suposedly only dealing with 1, and 0 and if thats the case, it should be irelevent what type of digital processor, or dac, or computer that this type of recording is played back using,right?it should all sound the same? theres my arguement! look back over some of your postings you digi guys, and re-read what you have written!
if diffrent digi equipment plays back diffrently, then surely it recorded diffrently in the first place!
a serious and factual explanation that we can all absorb please!!!:scratch::confused:

Marco
16-04-2008, 10:36
Ashley,


And Marco's DAC will be good but modern ones are noticeably better.


"Better" in what way exactly; because they measure better? That doesn't tell the whole story as I (and knowledgeable people like Mark from Audiocom) keep telling you. And precisely which 'modern DACs' are we talking about - those cheapo pro-audio things JC was on about?

If so, I can't wait to relinquish you of your £1000; that is if you have the bottle to put your money where your mouth is - it'll be easier than taking candy from a baby! :lol:


He wouldn't believe me when I told him that the Burr Brown 20 bit Multi Bit ones that appeared in the early nineties were better and that they've gone on improving since then.


Give me one good reason why I should believe you? It's not representative of what I've heard; in fact it's quite the opposite! Or do I just back down and believe what I'm told because you say so?


He's got a lovely old CD player and DAC and it will last where the current ones won't and that ought to be enough.


Indeed he has, and you're right it will last, but in my experience it also sounds better than 95% of the CDPs made these days and better than any iPod Shuffle or Mac Book.


He's very naughty!


Haha... It depends what you mean by naughty? I'm just very confident in my hearing acuity and my hi-fi opinions based on that, and I NEVER back down when faced with a challenge. If that's "naughty" then I am naughtiest f*cker you'll ever meet!! :eyebrows:

Marco.

anthonyTD
16-04-2008, 11:03
Ashley,



"Better" in what way exactly; because they measure better? That doesn't tell the whole story as I (and knowledgeable people like Mark from Audiocom) keep telling you. And precisely which 'modern DACs' are we talking about - those cheapo pro-audio things JC was on about?

If so, I can't wait to relinquish you of your £1000; that is if you have the bottle to put your money where your mouth is - it'll be easier than taking candy from a baby! :lol:



Give me one good reason why I should believe you? It's not representative of what I've heard; in fact it's quite the opposite! Or do I just back down and believe what I'm told because you say so?



Indeed he has, and you're right it will last, but in my experience it also sounds better than 95% of the CDPs made these days and better than any iPod Shuffle or Mac Book.



Haha... It depends what you mean by naughty? I'm just very confident in my hearing acuity and my hi-fi opinions based on that, and I NEVER back down when faced with a challenge. If that's "naughty" then I am naughtiest f*cker you'll ever meet!! :eyebrows:

Marco.

what about a public show-off, hire somewhere [or borrow, even better] where we can all witness this monumental event!
PS, still waiting for your answers, [ash maybe?]:eyebrows::gig:

Marco
16-04-2008, 11:17
"i think this thread has gone way off track of what it was intended to point out!"

I agree. It's due to defective moderation.


Hi JC, I'm still waiting for you to explain your bizarre recording procedure to me as per our earlier discussion :)

Also, please PM or email me at your earliest convenience and suggest some proposed dates and a venue for the test. Oh and incidentally, this won't be getting brushed under the carpet and 'conveniently' forgotten about, just in case you had any notions of that happening ;)

Tony, I'd love you to provide some alternative equipment at various price points to compare with JC's computer set-up. It will then be a proper battle of traditional hi-fi vs. computer hi-fi. Bring it on, and may the best 'man' win!! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Chris Frost
16-04-2008, 11:31
This is a great thread. Completely OT from the "Dealers are crap and no one is being fair to our ADM9's" thread that Ash started, but great none the less. :)


I'm currently using a Syrinx LE 2 (iirc) a black one, with an ortofon stereo mm cart, with a range of specially ground stylii from Expert Pickups.

I don't use a phono stage, I put the cart o/p straight into the fireface and record digitally exactly what is on the record. It sounds awful.
Marco, without a phono stage there'll be no RIAA equalisation. The dirct feed from a T/T will be all treble and no bass. This partly explains JC's "It sounds awfu" comment.



JCBrum :read:

You keep banging on about betting money on Marco's ears. Why? That part of the bet has been dealt with and settled. A panel of independent judges will listen to both systems. You won't be betting on Marco's ears, or your ears. So let's have you stop wriggling on this point, OK? It's a fair fight. Put up your cash and let's see who wins.


Back to the general points being made in the thread...

It's been said a few times now (and I paraphrase) "The computer that makes the music is the best thing to play it back" and "A computer is the best place to play back music from." As far as I see it there are two fundamental problems here.

Music may well have been captured and edited on PCs in the recording studio, and I have no doubt that a direct feed from the editing desk/PC responsible is the best place to hear the closest version to the original recording; but music is still delivered to the listening public on CD most of the time. I'm never likely to be able to hear the desk output at Air Studios, Abbey Road, Real World etc

Secondly, since music is mostly sourced from CD, and that CD has to be recorded to the hard drive, do we know how much error correction the drive and recording process is applying when ripping a track compared to a CD player simply playing the original?

Regards

Marco
16-04-2008, 11:56
Marco, without a phono stage there'll be no RIAA equalisation. The dirct feed from a T/T will be all treble and no bass. This partly explains JC's "It sounds awful" comment.


Good point, Chris. I had forgotten about that. He'll probably say that it's somehow miraculously dealt with elsewhere in the chain ;)

It also won't help that the very thing which is first in contact with the recorded information is total crap (his Ortofon MM cartridge) so what I'd like to know is where in his recording process this fundamental distortion at source is somehow 'corrected', and why indeed you would want it to exist in the first place? Surely it makes sense to use a better cartridge to start with and then work from there? :scratch:

And what criteria does he use to make, in his opinion, the recordings 'perfect'?

No doubt JC will be along shortly to tell us that both RIAA equalisation and cartridge quality are somehow 'irrelevant' or 'unimportant' in his super-duper computer-sourced vinyl transcription process!

Incidentally, I've let this thread 'evolve' because issues have been raised that need to be addressed.

Marco.

anthonyTD
16-04-2008, 11:57
This is a great thread. Completely OT from the "Dealers are crap and no one is being fair to our ADM9's" thread that Ash started, but great none the less. :)


Marco, without a phono stage there'll be no RIAA equalisation. The dirct feed from a T/T will be all treble and no bass. This partly explains JC's "It sounds awfu" comment.



JCBrum :read:

You keep banging on about betting money on Marco's ears. Why? That part of the bet has been dealt with and settled. A panel of independent judges will thatslisten to both systems. You won't be betting on Marco's ears, or your ears. So let's have you stop wriggling on this point, OK? It's a fair fight. Put up your cash and let's see who wins.


Back to the general points being made in the thread...

It's been said a few times now (and I paraphrase) "The computer that makes the music is the best thing to play it back" and "A computer is the best place to play back music from." As far as I see it there are two fundamental problems here.

Music may well have been captured and edited on PCs in the recording studio, and I have no doubt that a direct feed from the editing desk/PC responsible is the best place to hear the closest version to the original recording; but music is still delivered to the listening public on CD most of the time. I'm never likely to be able to hear the desk output at Air Studios, Abbey Road, Real World etc

Secondly, since music is mostly sourced from CD, and that CD has to be recorded to the hard drive, do we know how much error correction the drive and recording process is applying when ripping a track compared to a CD player simply playing the original?

Regards

thanks chris,
thats one of the main points i have been trying to get across for the last few threads!:confused:

Marco
16-04-2008, 12:18
Indeed, Anthony. But what you have to remember is that Ashley plays the politician and only answers the questions he wants to ;)


Music may well have been captured and edited on PCs in the recording studio, and I have no doubt that a direct feed from the editing desk/PC responsible is the best place to hear the closest version to the original recording...


Maybe that's why so many modern recordings are shit? Oh how I wish we would return to the days of, as far as possible, analogue recordings! It's still done in the audiophile music market, and bloody hell can you hear the difference, but so many modern commercial digital recordings are very poor quality indeed.

It never ceases to amaze me when I listen to original records in mono from the 50s (Dean Martin, Elvis Presley, Nat King Cole, etc) how wonderful they sound compared to modern non-audiophile LPs. Even AAD CDs from the 80s, where analogue mastering was a big part of the process, sound better than 90% of CDs these days. It pays to keep the recording process as simple as possible and I'm a firm believer in keeping it analogue until the end of the chain. Some current, discerning, music producers also seem to agree.

What have we lost in the recording process over the years? Are recording technicians less talented than they used to be? Maybe sound quality is no longer a priority and they don't care? Whatever it is quality is suffering, and I don't think that cheap computer sources now are able to show the difference, hence why those who own such devices think all recordings sound 'acceptable' :confused:

Marco.

NRG
16-04-2008, 12:23
Originally Posted by Chris Frost
...
Secondly, since music is mostly sourced from CD, and that CD has to be recorded to the hard drive, do we know how much error correction the drive and recording process is applying when ripping a track compared to a CD player simply playing the original?

This was done to death over on PFM a while back so I'm not going to regurgitate it all. Some but not all audio CDP can perform error correction like the earlier Sony and Philips players but not all of them. Some audio players can simply 'pass' on C2 error correction and newer players with PC derived CD mechs rely on what is implemented in the firmware of the drive.

Audio extraction utilities attempt to get the most bit accurate data from the media as possible. EAC will test the capabilities of the CD/DVD reader to determine if C2 error correction is supported and also it will implement other schemes to pull the data off the media like re-reading blocks using offset correction it has the luxury of being able to do this at above or below normal 1x speeds. An audio CD mech has to do it in real time.

TBH the BER has to be really high for an audio CDP to mute output or for EAC to re-read and interpolate data... if that is the case then maybe the CD should be returned to the retailer for replacement...

NRG
16-04-2008, 12:29
...

No doubt JC will be along shortly to tell us that both RIAA equalisation and cartridge quality are somehow 'irrelevant' or 'unimportant' in his super-duper computer-sourced vinyl transcription process!

As long as the cartridge is seeing the correct loading then RIAA can be applied in s/w. I've done it and it works well. As JC seems to transcribe 78's it is perhaps the easiest way to do it and anyhow there's no RIAA for 78's. they do vary in turnover F, speed 78 vs 80rpm etc and if they are a hill n dale recording or not.

S/W can correct for all of this, it's more convenient, flexible and cheaper than a 78 phono stage.

Marco
16-04-2008, 12:35
That's fine, Neal, but surely the inherent sonic signature of the cartridge (as per its design) will be superimposed on to the signal, not to mention possible information loss because of the poor quality of the stylus?

It's quite likely I'm being thick here because I'm completely unfamiliar with this process, but I don't see how that can be avoided. Feel free to educate me! :)

Marco.

NRG
16-04-2008, 12:43
True the sonic signature is 'imposed' on the final recording but we're talkin' 78's!

Not only do they vary as I've noted above but the groove spacing also varies, so if you are a real die hard fan of these things you will select a needle size to match the label or period of when the 78 was produced, too small a stylus diameter will mean it rides in the bottom of the groove where 70 years build up of crude lies...

So you are a bit limited to what cart to go for. I went for a Stanton cart that had available for it 3 sizes of stylus (AFAIK) to suit different groove sizes, this minimised the really bad surface noise and got the best from the 78. Then I corrected the recording in s/w and cleaned it up with the various filters the s/w offered. HTH

Marco
16-04-2008, 12:53
True the sonic signature is 'imposed' on the final recording but we're talkin' 78's!


I thought as much, and unfortunately as a purist that would annoy me ;)

Shure do the M78S, which is specifically designed for 78s, so I would have thought that would have been best for the job.

Any thoughts on the quality of modern recordings on both LP and CD compared to the past?

Marco.

NRG
16-04-2008, 13:01
Well, there's nothing 'pure' about 78s LOL! The Shure maybe a good cart but does it have different sized styli (!).

I think recordings today are just as much a lottery as they where back then. I've got some great recordings from the 50's, 60's etc etc and I've also got some shockers!

I do think pressing quality dipped in the eighties and some of the modern so called 'audiophile' pressings are truly shocking, especially at £25+ a shot. I've got a Rebecca Pigeon pressing that is just pants compared to the CD, very disappointing.

Marco
16-04-2008, 13:54
Neal,

Yes I'm sure the Shure is good (!)

I read JC saying something about different styli, but didn't grasp the significance of it. Why are different styli needed? I note from the Musonic website that the M78S only comes with one stylus. Surely if it were a major issue Shure would provide different sized ones with the cartridge or offer different versions of the same cartridge?

I know what you mean about some so-called modern 'audiophile' pressings (I've bought a few!) but in general I find vinyl recordings from, say, the mid 50s to the early 60s superior to those from any other era. Somehow they got it spot on around then. I was listening to an original 1959 vinyl recording of Frank Sinatra's 'No One Cares' last night and revelling in not only his unquestionable vocal talent but the warmth and 'tone' of the recording overall, when so often modern recordings can sound thin, 'pinched', and dynamically flat.

I've collected quite a few of these now from second-hand record shops and car boot sales and I've not been disappointed yet in the overall recording quality, or the music, save a few scratches! I've got a mint original 1963 copy of The Beatles 'Please Please Me' and it's probably one of the finest vinyl recordings in terms of sound quality that I own. In my opinion all the original Beatles albums sound fantastic and are somewhat of a benchmark in terms of recording quality. The chap who produced them (who died recently) I forget his name, really knew his stuff. I just wish there were more around like him now!

Marco.

Marco
16-04-2008, 14:15
I'm sorry, I must have missed these posts earlier:


I will elobrate further,
we all agree that digital equipment has moved on at an alarming pace since it was first used to record/playback music right? and we agree that the sonic qualities of dacs, and chips etc, have also moved on, right?
well, surely the reason for recording in this way was because we are suposedly only dealing with 1, and 0 and if thats the case, it should be irelevent what type of digital processor, or dac, or computer that this type of recording is played back using,right?it should all sound the same? theres my arguement! look back over some of your postings you digi guys, and re-read what you have written!
if diffrent digi equipment plays back diffrently, then surely it recorded diffrently in the first place!
a serious and factual explanation that we can all absorb please!!!:scratch::confused:


Excellent point, Anthony. Does anyone have a suitable explanation?

Hi Griffo,


If you need another Brummie with no particular preference for digital (analogue does still rule) and with easy access to Tony's place then I would be happy to help out adjudicating such an event.


Thanks. I'll bear that in mind. How's it going, btw?

Mind you the 'AVI boys' have been strangely quiet today! ;)

Marco.

NRG
16-04-2008, 15:11
Neal,
I read JC saying something about different styli, but didn't grasp the significance of it. Why are different styli needed? I note from the Musonic website that the M78S only comes with one stylus. Surely if it were a major issue Shure would provide different sized ones with the cartridge or offer different versions of the same cartridge?


Because, as I said earlier, the groove width can be different and if you have an older 78 with a small styli it will bottom out in the groove. A 2.8 thou styli will probably cope with the majority of 78s but JC is archiving so he will need to be able to select from different sizes to get the best sound. This comes way ahead of any choice over 'A is better than B'

http://www.rfwilmut.clara.net/repro78/stylus.html

Marco
16-04-2008, 16:51
Ah, thanks for that Neal :)

I see 'the boys' are back on line now, so folks stand by for some more shenanigans! :lolsign:

Marco.

Ashley James
16-04-2008, 16:53
I will elobrate further,
we all agree that digital equipment has moved on at an alarming pace since it was first used to record/playback music right? and we agree that the sonic qualities of dacs, and chips etc, have also moved on, right?
well, surely the reason for recording in this way was because we are suposedly only dealing with 1, and 0 and if thats the case, it should be irelevent what type of digital processor, or dac, or computer that this type of recording is played back using,right?it should all sound the same? theres my arguement! look back over some of your postings you digi guys, and re-read what you have written!
if diffrent digi equipment plays back diffrently, then surely it recorded diffrently in the first place!
a serious and factual explanation that we can all absorb please!!!:scratch::confused:

This is a perfectly reasonable point to which the answer is that the damage is done at the A to D or D to A stage and nowhere else.

As long as the sound is just noughts and ones it's fine and, as I've explained numerous times, if you procure DAC evaluation boards from the Chip manufacturers, you'll find they are extremely difficult to tell apart and Damn good. It's easy for us to use these to prove our own efforts and say this, but for enthusiasts or dealers, it's not because you are comparing different manufacturers interpretations of the instructions that came with their choice of DAC. Things are much better than they were and the difference between the best and worse is much smaller these days although some hi fi manufacturers still could do better. There is no reason why a £15K CD player should sound better than one at £250 because the best parts are so cheap and both will be using top spec DAC's.

What all this means is that if you have a good DAC, it doesn't matter whether the source is a computer or a CD transport, the sound will be the same. Of the two the CD transport is the worst, but I doubt you'd hear it.

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 16:59
NRG is on the right track, I use a 3.2 truncated ellipse most of the time with two or three sizes available either side when necessary.

You can't buy them off the shelf Marco, they have to be individually made by grinding diamonds and then mounted on a suitable cantilever. You might spend £500 to £1000 on them.

RIAA is merely an introduction to distort the frequency response of the record to make them cheaper to sell. It means you can put the tracks closer together and use a smaller amount of vinyl. Also it enables the use of cheaper cartridges, because they don't jump out of the groove so much. i.e. less need for expensive MC stuff with RIAA in use.
Unfortunately it makes the recording sound really crap, so the phono stage has to distort the freq response again (a lot) to make it sound real. Almost all the music you hear from a record is quite false and is generated by the electronic filters.

RIAA is purely a way to makes records cheaper. Magnetic tape uses a similar "fudge" and has a large rf "bias" signal imposed as well which needs even more filters.

Sorry I've not been around much today, one of my clients has got a problem with one of their music composition pc's and the artwork is not right for the publishers. I have got to find the problem and fix it for them before the weekend, as it all has to go to press on Monday, It's gonna be midnight oil stuff, so talk among yourselves if I'm not here.

If you want to we could ask Ash if he'll provide factory facilities for the test of Marco's cdp -v- mac on adm9's. I bet he'd be interested.

Marco
16-04-2008, 17:04
Welcome back, old chap, have you had to work today or something? :lol:


There is no reason why a £15K CD player should sound better than one at £250 because the best parts are so cheap and both will be using top spec DAC's.


Yes there is! It depends how the rest of the design is implemented. Powers supplies (and 'noise' management), and how this is dealt with, is significant and hugely important to performance and the final sound of any player. DACs may all sound 'similar' in the environment you mention but that rarely exists as other factors in the design influence their final sound. Modern affordable CDPs, and computers, tend to have poor quality cheap PSUs. The ones inside my Sony transport and DAC are massive and big enough to be used in amplifiers. It's this 'over-engineering', apart from the use of the highest quality transport mechanism and other key components, that makes the Sony sound as good as it does.


What all this means is that if you have a good DAC, it doesn't matter whether the source is a computer or a CD transport, the sound will be the same. Of the two the CD transport is the worst, but I doubt you'd hear it.

I've got an exceptionally good transport, as you know, and I can quite clearly hear the difference between it and cheap DVD ROMs or those used in computer audio set-ups. I've compared the sonic quality of the CD mech in my mate's media player, for example, to the one in my Sony and the results are glaringly obvious, Ashley!

Now, when you get a chance, please answer the questions I asked you earlier this morning :)

Marco.

Marco
16-04-2008, 17:09
If you want to we could ask Ash if he'll provide factory facilities for the test of Marco's cdp -v- mac on adm9's. I bet he'd be interested.

I don't care where it's done, just give me an idea of when it's convenient for you and we'll thrash out a suitable date for everyone.

I'm sorry, but I don't think I much care for your LP recording process...

No problem about being away - life goes on in the real world! :)

Marco.

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 17:10
/snip/
It depends how the rest of the design is implemented. Powers supplies (and 'noise' management), and how this is dealt with, is significant and hugely important to peformance and the final sound of any player. DACs may all sound 'similar' in the environment you mention but that rarely exists as other factors in the design influence their final sound./snip/
Marco.

This is clever stuff Marco ! what do you do for a living ? :scratch:

Ashley James
16-04-2008, 17:10
A really accurate and revealing Monitor with minimum distortion would be best for proper comparisons.

It's a pity the Spendors aren't easier to transport because I've got a couple of special Monoblocs here we use to evaluate speakers. They produce 1.2kW peaks, 100 Amps and have the lowest distortion of any big amp we know about. They aren't for sale and never will be, they are simply for test purposes, but they would show you how good the Spendors can be.

Marco
16-04-2008, 17:20
Those amps sound like a hoot, Ashley :fingers:

I'd love to hear them, of course, but I'm rather pleased with my distorted old valve amps at the moment ;)

JC,

I'm a self-employed art dealer/framer. Are you being facetious? :lol:

Marco.

anthonyTD
16-04-2008, 17:28
A really accurate and revealing Monitor with minimum distortion would be best for proper comparisons.

It's a pity the Spendors aren't easier to transport because I've got a couple of special Monoblocs here we use to evaluate speakers. They produce 1.2kW peaks, 100 Amps and have the lowest distortion of any big amp we know about. They aren't for sale and never will be, they are simply for test purposes, but they would show you how good the Spendors can be.

lowest distortion of any amp you know of, well, thats not difficult when you consider most solid state amplifiers are tested for distortion characteristics and frequency response at a fraction of their true power output, [most in the hundreds of milliwatts] what power output were yours tested at?

sastusbulbas
16-04-2008, 17:33
I will elobrate further,
we all agree that digital equipment has moved on at an alarming pace since it was first used to record/playback music right? and we agree that the sonic qualities of dacs, and chips etc, have also moved on, right?
well, surely the reason for recording in this way was because we are suposedly only dealing with 1, and 0 and if thats the case, it should be irelevent what type of digital processor, or dac, or computer that this type of recording is played back using,right?it should all sound the same? theres my arguement! look back over some of your postings you digi guys, and re-read what you have written!
if diffrent digi equipment plays back diffrently, then surely it recorded diffrently in the first place!
a serious and factual explanation that we can all absorb please!!!:scratch::confused:


Hmmm,

A bit like asking, if all a record player does is drag a point through a record and turns vibrations into music, why do they sound different, or if a cone produces sound by vibration why does it sound different?

It matters not how it was recorded, then processed then remastered, as this has nothing to do with the acuracy and transparency and expectation of the multitude of design implementations software, replay chains and preferences which are part of the replay chain.

All sound different because they are different. But I see your point I think regarding computers for audio, but then we have different audio codecs running from different audio software and media players with different problems which may affect the digital stream which may not be reclocked accurately or go through a suitable DAC.

Take two Macbooks and run them through different DAC's and you will get the presentation of that DAC, they sound different in many cases due to different design concepts and targets by the manufacturer, different analogue circuits and such. Dac's are not all equal.

Take two different computers and put them through the same DAC, and you may find one sounds better than the other, audio codecs, system demands, power supplies and graphics can all pose subtle detrimental problems or interference which may affect the digital stream, not to mention how well executed the digital outputs are, output frequency and accuracy, or indeed the DAC's capabilities with such problems.

The end result of digital is that it needs to be converted back to analogue, that designers have different ideas, and no one follows any single focus ideal.

Or am I missing your point :confused:

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 17:33
Not at all Marco, I'm most impressed that you can put AVI right, when it comes to the finer points of manufacturing CD players correctly. Their picture framing leaves something to be desired as well, but I understand they are persevering with witty repartee. ;)

Marco
16-04-2008, 17:36
<Titter>

Now have you had a think about those dates?

Marco.

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 17:36
lowest distortion of any amp you know of, well, thats not difficult when you consider most solid state amplifiers are tested for distortion characteristics and frequency response at a fraction of their true power output, [most in the hundreds of milliwatts] what power output were yours tested at?

That's a bit of a sarcastic post, what's got up your nose ?

sastusbulbas
16-04-2008, 17:37
A really accurate and revealing Monitor with minimum distortion would be best for proper comparisons.

It's a pity the Spendors aren't easier to transport because I've got a couple of special Monoblocs here we use to evaluate speakers. They produce 1.2kW peaks, 100 Amps and have the lowest distortion of any big amp we know about. They aren't for sale and never will be, they are simply for test purposes, but they would show you how good the Spendors can be.


PICTURES OF KIT ! :lolsign:

Ashley James
16-04-2008, 17:40
Obviously both at full power and a few milliwatts, low level detail is most of what you listen to but crescendos don't need to harden up or congest.

The signal to noise ratio is 120dB and the distortion figure is 0.0015% up to 10kHz, the small signal bandwidth is 1 mHz I think and this closes to 50 or 100 kHz at 675 Watts or so. I can't remember exactly now, but you'd easily pick them out from most hi fi amps.

Mart's a Pan Galactic Mega-Brain!

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 17:46
Sastus: "'Or am I missing your point"'


Well yes I think so. I reckon all this kerfuffle is simple really, I don't need to hear Marco's kit because I know it's "big-old" "legacy" stuff with valves, and therefore sounds not as good as my laptop with AVI actives. (ordinary actives aren't good enough).

On the other hand he is very keen to do the test, because he's never heard a really good modern system, and is worried that it could sound better than his stuff, and the anxiety is killing him.

That's what it's all about really. :)

anthonyTD
16-04-2008, 17:48
Hmmm,

A bit like asking, if all a record player does is drag a point through a record and turns vibrations into music, why do they sound different, or if a cone produces sound by vibration why does it sound different?

It matters not how it was recorded, then processed then remastered, as this has nothing to do with the acuracy and transparency and expectation of the multitude of design implementations software, replay chains and preferences which are part of the replay chain.

All sound different because they are different. But I see your point I think regarding computers for audio, but then we have different audio codecs running from different audio software and media players with different problems which may affect the digital stream which may not be reclocked accurately or go through a suitable DAC.

Take two Macbooks and run them through different DAC's and you will get the presentation of that DAC, they sound different in many cases due to different design concepts and targets by the manufacturer, different analogue circuits and such. Dac's are not all equal.

Take two different computers and put them through the same DAC, and you may find one sounds better than the other, audio codecs, system demands, power supplies and graphics can all pose subtle detrimental problems or interference which may affect the digital stream, not to mention how well executed the digital outputs are, output frequency and accuracy, or indeed the DAC's capabilities with such problems.

The end result of digital is that it needs to be converted back to analogue, that designers have different ideas, and no one follows any single focus ideal.

Or am I missing your point :confused:

that my friend is exactly my point!
no one can say that one type of recording/playback system is the ultimate for acuracy, musicality,etc, because, as you have just rightly said, our ideals differ wildly, in recording techniques to playback, to the type of equipment we play the final result on!:eyebrows:

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 17:51
Because your ideals all differ widely, only one of you is right. Marco thinks it's him but I know it's me. :ner:

Marco
16-04-2008, 17:52
I reckon all this kerfuffle is simple really, I don't need to hear Marco's kit because I know it's "big-old" "legacy" stuff with valves, and therefore sounds not as good as my laptop with AVI actives.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... Aye right! :lol:

Why do you persist with this nonsensical absolutism? It does your credibility no favours whatsoever.

Still waiting for your suggested dates...

Marco.

Ashley James
16-04-2008, 17:57
I like his speakers but not 30 Watt Valve Amps although the only reason AVI exists is that Mart bought a Philips CD player and a very well reviewed pre power combination in 1983 when he was first promoted at Smiths. The result was appalling, he couldn't believe how bad it was so he traced out the circuit of what turned out to be a 1958 RCA preamp and a Kit from the Sinclair. It wasn't faulty but it was a rotten piece of design and thoroughly out of date. Curious, he got out a valve amplifier he'd designed when he was twelve (it was in the attic) plugged it in and CD sounded marvellous.

He's still got the amplifier and the Scope he designed to test it, but that was 1983. He reckoned that if rubbish like the pre/power he'd bought could get good reviews, he'd probably make a fortune if he started a hi fi company!

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 18:01
I reckon we ought to do it at the factory and use Ash's big amps as well. How about next thurs ?

Ash ?

anthonyTD
16-04-2008, 18:01
That's a bit of a sarcastic post, what's got up your nose ?
sorry brum,
no sarcasim intended!!!:lol::eyebrows::confused::smoking::ner:

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 18:02
I'll have Ash for my second and Martin for my impartial judge.

Ashley James
16-04-2008, 18:09
that my friend is exactly my point!
no one can say that one type of recording/playback system is the ultimate for acuracy, musicality,etc, because, as you have just rightly said, our ideals differ wildly, in recording techniques to playback, to the type of equipment we play the final result on!:eyebrows:

Nothing is perfect but there's a great deal wrong with an awful lot of stuff out there.

For example, it's easy to prove that any sub 100 watt amp is clipping much of the time and will not be reproducing sound as accurately or pleasantly as one with twice the power for starters.

There is so much wrong with so much kit that can be easily identified and probably would be if it wasn't excused as "musical".

That's the problem with hi fi and why people are losing interest. So many people tell us they've spent a fortune and never ever been satisfied with the result. This would not happen if proper scientific analysis was done and Russ Andrews, all £500.00 mains lead manufacturers and all similar snake oil was categorised as it should be.

I know we'll never agree on this, but it drives me up the wall!!

Ash:doh:

anthonyTD
16-04-2008, 18:10
I like his speakers but not 30 Watt Valve Amps although the only reason AVI exists is that Mart bought a Philips CD player and a very well reviewed pre power combination in 1983 when he was first promoted at Smiths. The result was appalling, he couldn't believe how bad it was so he traced out the circuit of what turned out to be a 1958 RCA preamp and a Kit from the Sinclair. It wasn't faulty but it was a rotten piece of design and thoroughly out of date. Curious, he got out a valve amplifier he'd designed when he was twelve (it was in the attic) plugged it in and CD sounded marvellous.

He's still got the amplifier and the Scope he designed to test it, but that was 1983. He reckoned that if rubbish like the pre/power he'd bought could get good reviews, he'd probably make a fortune if he started a hi fi company!
ash,
i understand where your coming from, and thats exactly why the type of valve equipment i now build is bespoke, it dosent use old circuit designs, [although i have built regular all-valve designs for some customers over the years] i do however insist on class A.. ;)

Marco
16-04-2008, 18:10
I reckon we ought to do it at the factory and use Ash's big amps as well. How about next thurs ?


Next Thursday?

LOL. Are you having a laugh? :lol:

There's no way I can organise the necessary time off work at that short notice, not to mention getting everyone else together that's required, too!

We need to diary something for sometime next month, providing that's suitable for others.

Marco.

P.S Ashley, can you scroll back to this morning's discussion and attend to the questions I asked you before you went 'AWOL' today? ;)

Cheers!

Ashley James
16-04-2008, 18:13
I can see the appeal of these things and that people enjoy owning Valve amps. The second Amplifier I built in 1959 had 807 Transmitter valves in it which flickered blue as the music played and I loved it!

Ash

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 18:14
You need a month !!!!! wtf are you planning ??

Marco
16-04-2008, 18:20
I've got a f*cking business to run! ;)

I'll post a thread later and ask those who've expressed an interest to judge the outcome (Griffo & Tony) so far when suits them, and we'll take it from there. I certainly won't be able to squeeze anything in until next month.

Marco.

Marco
16-04-2008, 18:25
Ashley,

I'll help you out... Post #91 here is what I'm referring to:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=434&page=10

Get to it - chop chop! ;)

Marco.

anthonyTD
16-04-2008, 18:37
Nothing is perfect but there's a great deal wrong with an awful lot of stuff out there.

For example, it's easy to prove that any sub 100 watt amp is clipping much of the time and will not be reproducing sound as accurately or pleasantly as one with twice the power for starters.

There is so much wrong with so much kit that can be easily identified and probably would be if it wasn't excused as "musical".

That's the problem with hi fi and why people are losing interest. So many people tell us they've spent a fortune and never ever been satisfied with the result. This would not happen if proper scientific analysis was done and Russ Andrews, all £500.00 mains lead manufacturers and all similar snake oil was categorised as it should be.

I know we'll never agree on this, but it drives me up the wall!!

Ash:doh:

you would be suprised what we do agree on!
russ andrews,well, best not go there!
i remember a customer bringing one of my soul power amplifiers in for repair a few years ago after he had tripped over one of the speaker leads consequently damaging one chanel of the amp.
when i had repaired it i put it in my main system [at the time] and he came round to pick it up, i let him listen for a while, and sudenly he turned to me and said, why dosent it sound like that in my system! he then went on to describe all the ancilaries he had in his system, including one pair of half meter interconnects costing in excess of £4,000 GBP!
so, one thing we are bound to agree on is, its not about how much money you throw at it!;);)

Ashley James
16-04-2008, 18:42
Marco your trouble is that you'd argue to the death.

Modern DAC have much more resolution than the TDA1541 and the digital filters reduce out of band spuriae to lower levels.

This means that they sound cleaner and clearer, you get more ambient information, a great sense of depth and everything is more finely etched. By comparison (through proper amplification) your CD player will sound slightly duller and rougher. I emphasise slightly because it is a good CD player.

Modern DACs will also be more consistent with a greater variety of power amps because they produce less crap above 20 kHz.

If you use an old Tower PC, spend £50 on an M-Audio 2496 and compare it with yours and I think you'll have a shock.

Ash

PS. I'm too tired to answer all the other stuff and I've already said that you should keep the thing and improve your amp.

sastusbulbas
16-04-2008, 18:47
Marco your trouble is that you'd argue to the death.

Modern DAC have much more resolution than the TDA1541 and the digital filters reduce out of band spuriae to lower levels.

This means that they sound cleaner and clearer, you get more ambient information, a great sense of depth and everything is more finely etched. By comparison (through proper amplification) your CD player will sound slightly duller and rougher. I emphasise slightly because it is a good CD player.

Modern DACs will also be more consistent with a greater variety of power amps because they produce less crap above 20 kHz.

If you use an old Tower PC, spend £50 on an M-Audio 2496 and compare it with yours and I think you'll have a shock.

Ash

PS. I'm too tired to answer all the other stuff and I've already said that you should keep the thing and improve your amp.

Yes you bloody tell him Ash, bloody 30w of valve poo, tut tut, AND not to mention.... :scratch:

Ashley James
16-04-2008, 18:51
I had one in 1959
Ash

Marco
16-04-2008, 19:03
Ashley.


Marco your trouble is that you'd argue to the death.


LOL. And you're any different? As long as you continue to make statements about audio equipment that are in direct contradiction to what I've heard and experienced we'll continue to argue! ;)


Modern DAC have much more resolution than the TDA1541 and the digital filters reduce out of band spuriae to lower levels.


How did you arrive at that conclusion? Obviously solely through measurements. You can't tell everything by bloody measurements alone! Will you ever accept this fact? What you're asserting is not what I hear when I compare my Sony DAS-R1 to 'modern DACs' - and I've done it many times! Most of them sound bright, thin and musically un-involving in comparison. My judgement criterion is what sounds most like real music - nothing else.

But we'll see what happens when the forthcoming test is carried out...


This means that they sound cleaner and clearer, you get more ambient information, a great sense of depth and everything is more finely etched. By comparison (through proper amplification) your CD player will sound slightly duller and rougher. I emphasise slightly because it is a good CD player.


How can you possibly know this? And what you've described above doesn't necessarily indicate superior ability, muscially. It's simply a list of hi-fi priorities. This is what you scientist types don't get - everything with you guys is 'black and white'. Unfortunately hi-fi isn't as simple as that.

You've not heard my CD player, particularly as it's been heavily modified by Mark Bartlett of Audiocom. You might have a 'general idea' of how players of the Sony's ilk are likely to sound, but that's it, you have no idea how influential the internal Audiocom mods are and what effect they have on the player's performance!

But you will soon... ;)


Modern DACs will also be more consistent with a greater variety of power amps because they produce less crap above 20 kHz.


And that's the end of the story, is it? Nothing else is important? Come on, Ashley pull the other one...


If you use an old Tower PC, spend £50 on an M-Audio 2496 and compare it with yours and I think you'll have a shock.


I use a brand new Sony Vaio laptop. Sorry, I've got no idea what an 'M-audio 2496' is and what relevance it has to the computer I use. Feel free to educate me...

Marco.

Mike
16-04-2008, 19:42
My (crystal ;)) balls have told me the possible outcome's of this experiment!

1. It does not happen. The argument continues.

2. It happens and nobody agrees which is the winner. The argument continues.

3. A winner is declared but the 'other party' disagrees. The argument continues.

4. Everyone agrees on a winner. The argument continues anyway.

5. <insert anything>. The argument continues.


Enjoy!..... I wish I could be there!


:lolsign:

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 19:43
"Feel free to educate me..."


Hearing my laptop will be an education for you. :) MWUAAHAAHAAHA :lol:

Marco
16-04-2008, 19:52
Indeed. I can't quite bring myself, a diehard audio purist, to believe that I'm going to compare my lovely Sony to some low-fi piece of mass-produced plastic :lolsign:

Marco.

Chris Frost
16-04-2008, 20:07
It's a pity the Spendors aren't easier to transport because I've got a couple of special Monoblocs here we use to evaluate speakers. I've got a van and am not too far away from Marco, so as long as the speakers are less than 12ft tall and smaller than a 4'x4' profile we should OK ;)

Ashley James
16-04-2008, 20:37
I'm not convinced the argument was worth having and I'm sure it will continue as long as Marco has a hole in his bottom.

Sony Vaio's sound pretty horrid so buy and M-Audio Transit to use it instead of your CD player. http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Transit-main.html

I'm very confident of AVI's sound quality and equally confident that it won't convince people in love with products that don't stand scientific analysis.

Ever since the seventies, when high feedback amps with ultra low distortion figures were discredited, people have believed that low measured distortion means bad sound. That no longer applies, but convincing anyone with a mindset isn't possible.

What you and anyone else who's interested should do is pop down and listen to some of our stuff. You will hear a big difference between it and most other hi fi and you may realise that it's simply less distortion as claimed. You may like it but I'm not confident given your present obsession.

Once you know the AVI sound and have decided whether you like it or not, we'll know if it's worth taking things further.

If the Spendors are connected to our Front end, they will sound like AVI but with a softer bass, less punch, slightly less stereo image and clarity, but quite good, which is rare. There are some pretty awful speakers out there.

I apologise for discussing AVI products.

Ash

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 21:06
I don't, I bought them !

Marco
16-04-2008, 21:09
I'm very confident of AVI's sound quality and equally confident that it won't convince people in love with products that don't stand scientific analysis.


Ashley, with respect, when listening to a hi-fi system is it for the simple reason of enjoying music or carrying out a scientific experiment?

Why should I be concerned if my valve amplifier, for example, "stands scientific analysis" when it plays beautiful music?

Marco.

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 21:15
quote M "'Why should I be concerned if my valve amplifier, for example, "stands scientific analysis" when it plays beautiful music?"' unquote

You shouldn't be,...... but you are !

Marco
16-04-2008, 21:27
I'm not concerned in the slightest, JC, because I know how good my gear is.

I would like Ashley to answer my question.

What you should ask yourself is what both of you are going to do if (and I feel it's extremely likely) you hear my Sony outperform your respective computer sources? What will happen to all this "scientific analysis" then? ;)

Marco.

Ashley James
16-04-2008, 21:51
Marco the computer is irrelevant it simply provides the Digital information, it's the DAC that dictates sound quality. If your Vaio has a suitable digital output and you plug it into the CD player DAC, it's sound the same as the CD transport.

I wouldn't be able to listen to your amplifier because it'll be terribly distorted by our standards. The problem will be that we know that ours is right and you know yours is right and that's how it'll remain - look all the crap Steve gave us!

Mike
16-04-2008, 22:02
Like I said!.... :lolsign:



My (crystal ;)) balls have told me the possible outcome's of this experiment!

1. It does not happen. The argument continues.

2. It happens and nobody agrees which is the winner. The argument continues.

3. A winner is declared but the 'other party' disagrees. The argument continues.

4. Everyone agrees on a winner. The argument continues anyway.

5. <insert anything>. The argument continues.


Enjoy!..... I wish I could be there!


:lolsign:

anthonyTD
16-04-2008, 22:07
I'm not convinced the argument was worth having and I'm sure it will continue as long as Marco has a hole in his bottom.

Sony Vaio's sound pretty horrid so buy and M-Audio Transit to use it instead of your CD player. http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Transit-main.html

I'm very confident of AVI's sound quality and equally confident that it won't convince people in love with products that don't stand scientific analysis.


Ever since the seventies, when high feedback amps with ultra low distortion figures were discredited, people have believed that low measured distortion means bad sound. That no longer applies, but convincing anyone with a mindset isn't possible.

What you and anyone else who's interested should do is pop down and listen to some of our stuff. You will hear a big difference between it and most other hi fi and you may realise that it's simply less distortion as claimed. You may like it but I'm not confident given your present obsession.

Once you know the AVI sound and have decided whether you like it or not, we'll know if it's worth taking things further.

If the Spendors are connected to our Front end, they will sound like AVI but with a softer bass, less punch, slightly less stereo image and clarity, but quite good, which is rare. There are some pretty awful speakers out there.

I apologise for discussing AVI products.

Ash
the reason why some amplifiers with low distortion sound bad is because of what they use to get the low distortion! high feedback! instead of carefull design, they just tried to clean things up at the end with overkill amounts of feedback. before you slag me off as one of the purest no feedback brigade,i am all for feedback, but used to enhance circuit design not used in an attempt to slug a poorly designed circuit so much to get a decent test figure, that you actually suck the life out of any music re-produced by it.

Marco
16-04-2008, 22:12
Ashley,


Marco the computer is irrelevant it simply provides the Digital information, it's the DAC that dictates sound quality.


I'm sorry, I disagree. Transports make a difference - I've heard it!


If your Vaio has a suitable digital output and you plug it into the CD player DAC, it's sound the same as the CD transport.


I bet you it won't, but to humour you I'll try it and report back ;)

I recently, after reading about someone raving about it on another forum, tried playing a CD in my system via a Sony Playstation and it sounded truly awful - without doubt it was the worst sound from CD I've ever heard. I know what you're suggesting is different because of my DAC but it just goes to show that the mechs, PSUs, etc in these sorts of things are cheap and nasty and unsurprisingly sound crap. Goodness knows what sort of sound these people are used to listening to who were suggesting a Playstation is a good CD player!!


I wouldn't be able to listen to your amplifier because it'll be terribly distorted by our standards.


The fact is it doesn't sound "terribly distorted", and that's all that matters. Do you listen with your ears or with an oscilloscope?

As I told you in an email:

distortion is not an issue unless perceived by the ear as a negative.

You might like to think about that.


The problem will be that we know that ours is right and you know yours is right and that's how it'll remain - look all the crap Steve gave us!

You're far more absolutist than me, though, IMO to the detriment of learning anything new.

As for Steve, he was just being honest (as he always is). I trust his ears more than any of your "scientific analysis".

Perhaps you would be so kind now to answer my earlier question? :)

You have a very bad habit of ignoring the more difficult ones and spinning the argument to suit yourself.

Marco.

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 22:18
Marco, can your sony cdp read a computer copied cd. ? i.e. a CD-R ?

Mike
16-04-2008, 22:19
the reason why some amplifiers with low distortion sound bad is because of what they use to get the low distortion! high feedback! instead of carefull design, they just tried to clean things up at the end with overkill amounts of feedback. before you slag me off as one of the purest no feedback brigade,i am all for feedback, but used to enhance circuit design not used in an attempt to slug a poorly designed circuit so much to get a decent test figure, that you actually suck the life out of any music re-produced by it.

Well said that man!

Take chocolate Noddy, and go to the top of the class!

:exactly:

anthonyTD
16-04-2008, 22:20
Ashley,



I'm sorry, I disagree. Transports make a difference - I've heard it!



I bet you it won't, but to humour you I'll try it and report back ;)



The fact is it doesn't sound "terribly distorted", and that's all that matters. Do you listen with your ears or an oscilloscope?

As I told you in an email:

distortion is not an issue unless perceived by the ear as a negative.

You might like to think about that.



You're far more absolutist than me, though, IMO to the detriment of learning anything new.

As for Steve, he was just being honest (as he always is). I trust his ears more than any of your "scientific analysis".

Perhaps you would be so kind now to answer my earlier question? :)

You have a very bad habit of ignoring the more difficult ones and spinning the argument to suit yourself.

Marco.

i would like to know out of interest what distortion figures ashley has for his speakers [not the amplifier /speaker combo] chances are they will be much higher than .1% which is what i guess your valve amp measures.
if thats the case, then any lower distortion further down the chain in his system is mostly irrelevant!
at the end of the day, its not all about test measurements, it realy isnt!
and that should be the end of it, but i suspect it wont be, it is for me though, i am off to bed guys, cant take anymore tonight...:lol::scratch::confused::eyebrows::gig:: ner:

Mike
16-04-2008, 22:23
Blah, blah, blah.... and the argument will continue! :lolsign:

Leave it I tell thee! :doh:

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 22:25
Mike, are you advising me to withdraw ?

Marco, answer my question please.

Marco
16-04-2008, 22:28
Marco, answer my question please.

Don't get cheeky, sweetheart. I'm the boss here so you dance to my tune ;)

The answer is yes it can.

Next?

Marco.

Marco
16-04-2008, 22:31
i would like to know out of interest what distortion figures ashley has for his speakers [not the amplifier /speaker combo] chances are they will be much higher than .1% which is what i guess your valve amp measures.
if thats the case, then any lower distortion further down the chain in his system is mostly irrelevant!


Good point, Anthony. So would I! I'm so glad you're here ;)

Marco.

jcbrum
16-04-2008, 22:48
Ok, I'm fully strategized for combat, and I'm also knackered. Another difficult day tomorrow. See you all further down.

Marco
16-04-2008, 22:54
Nighty night. You can let me know what the purpose was of enquiring if my CDP plays CD-Rs then I presume ;)

Marco.

Ashley James
17-04-2008, 07:35
Marco's Amp will probably never get as low as 0.1%, even with a test signal and playing music it'll be more like 10 - 30% because it doesn't have enough dynamic range.

The drive units we use will slightly better 0.1% through the mid band and rise to over 1% below 100Hz or so, but it's harmonic and non intrusive which cannot be said of valves.

We've proved time and time again that reducing far lower levels of distortion and noise in the front end makes easily audible differences.

You're right about feedback, it's has to be applied correctly. As I've explained numerous times, DAC's output ultra sonic hash that really upsets some amps, usually because of what they do above 20kHz. However if the amp doesn't have a very low output impedance, it cannot control the drive unit. It can't properly in a passive design anyway.

All computer digital outputs sound the same, CD transports vary as explained over a million times. Sony computers and PS3's all sound crap from their analogue outputs, however Sony have been upgrading the firmware lately and I understand they are now much better. We ONLY EVER USE THE DIGITAL OUTPUT FROM ANYTHING. I've not heard a good sound analogue output from any PC, but Macs are all quite acceptable and some like the Mini are extremely good.

Marco I've no idea where the conversation is or what question I'm dodging so ask again.

NRG
17-04-2008, 08:14
Can't vouch for Marco's amp but 0.1% is achievable. From our friends at HFW (picked out at random):

Ashley James
17-04-2008, 08:19
0.1% might be achievable but 30 watts isn't enough for the music so it will be overdriven all the time and 0.1% distortions sounds dreadful compared to a good modern amplifier.

Ours our around 0.0015% and it makes a huge difference, everything is so much warmer and smoother with layers of beautifully portrayed detail.

Ash

NRG
17-04-2008, 08:23
Well that depends on how loud you want to listen, how sensitive the 'speakers are, the size of your living romm and how close you are to the 'speakers. The amplifer example I posted above would need 90db 'speakers to stand a chance of re-producing the dynamics.

Ashley James
17-04-2008, 08:34
I'm afraid that's wrong because you haven't realised how big the peak to mean is in music. Typically a normal listening level requires about 1/4 Watt but the peaks run into hundreds and they are more or less continuous. These are what push up the distortion levels to way over 10%.

I'm afraid MF's claims are more or less correct and that the Naim sound is simply an old fashioned design clipping!

Even the ADM9 amps produce 500 Watt peaks, which why they sound so clear.

You're listening a 1/4 Watt continuously and you hear 1/4 Watt SPL, the peaks don't make it sound louder, just clearer or less distorted.

We proved this many years ago at the Heathrow hi fi Show but none of the many journalists who accepted the proof subsequently mentioned it and they continued to talk about musicality from what were actually clipping and distorting Amps. Therefore it isn't surprising that people still se us as controversial, when all we've done is state facts and proved them.

Have a look at this, it's what we used to prove out point and we programmed it with a few Five Star Review Products so we could show why ours sounded better.

http://gallery.mac.com/kda132#100074/DSCF0610&bgcolor=black

This arrived yesterday as another enthusiast discovers the benefits of having sufficient power:

Hi Ash,

Just thought I'd let you know I had yet another message today from someone saying how happy they are with the recent purchase of an AVI Lab Series Integrated: (partially reproduced below)



Been a while, but I'm finally the proud owner of a Lab Series integrated. Only had it about a week but I'm really starting to see what all the rave reviews are about. I can't believe the power that's there, and the bass it puts out is phenomenal for something so small!

Ashley James
17-04-2008, 08:40
If it's to have reasonable bass extension, a 12" loudspeaker will probably have a sensitivity of less than 90dB and a 6.5" about 87dB. As you increase sensitivity so you lose Bass and also bugger up the mid band by making diaphragms to light and prone to break up. 3dB increase is equivalent to doubling amp power so it's not going to make sufficient difference.

pure sound
17-04-2008, 08:42
Yet another thread, this time ostensibly about retailers & the future, becomes a promotional vehicle for the ADM9's.

Plus ca change!

anthonyTD
17-04-2008, 08:45
Marco's Amp will probably never get as low as 0.1%, even with a test signal and playing music it'll be more like 10 - 30% because it doesn't have enough dynamic range.

The drive units we use will slightly better 0.1% through the mid band and rise to over 1% below 100Hz or so, but it's harmonic and non intrusive which cannot be said of valves.

We've proved time and time again that reducing far lower levels of distortion and noise in the front end makes easily audible differences.

You're right about feedback, it's has to be applied correctly. As I've explained numerous times, DAC's output ultra sonic hash that really upsets some amps, usually because of what they do above 20kHz. However if the amp doesn't have a very low output impedance, it cannot control the drive unit. It can't properly in a passive design anyway.

All computer digital outputs sound the same, CD transports vary as explained over a million times. Sony computers and PS3's all sound crap from their analogue outputs, however Sony have been upgrading the firmware lately and I understand they are now much better. We ONLY EVER USE THE DIGITAL OUTPUT FROM ANYTHING. I've not heard a good sound analogue output from any PC, but Macs are all quite acceptable and some like the Mini are extremely good.

Marco I've no idea where the conversation is or what question I'm dodging so ask again.

ash,
i give up, you win, all your equipment is right ours is all wrong, That includes mr LEAKS POINT ONE, back in the days when valves was all there was, which was measured as having .1% distortion, hence its name, and his original stereo 20's etc...and remind me, what power output were they?
please, please ash, dont insult our intelegence!
as for your speakers having .1% distortion prove it! [ and no brum, i am not being sarcastic, i realy would like to be enlightend] and show the frequency range this covers... because if it is true you have succeded where most of the major drive unit manufacturers in the world have failed!!!
come on ash seriously, you know and i know that the most distortion in a good hi fi set up will be down to the loudspeakers at the end of the day.
what this thread started out trying to discuss as far as i am concerned is that its not all about test measurments, that ohh thats why it sounds so good, look at that square wave, etc, yes, i dont doubt that your equipment probably sounds damn good, i have allready said that i would like to hear it some time, but its probably more likely to be down to all the parts you have chosen, ie, speakers, amplifiers, dacs etc working in unison with each other, in other words, you have hit upon combinations of equipment that work well with each other more than it being down to just distortion measurements.
look at some of my earlier posts, i have actually been in agreement with some of your values, ideals, and loaths etc, i have said it before, i am not into snake oils never have been, i am only interested in what can be proven works, wether that be looking at test equipment figures, or using my own ears, but IMHO both must go hand in hand as far as music reproduction is concerned...
anthony...:);)

Ashley James
17-04-2008, 08:46
As a retailer I can understand you're being a little "territorial", however this is an important discussion and if you read it, you may find it helpful.

You should be able to factor out anticipated bias and weigh up the facts.

anthonyTD
17-04-2008, 08:54
As a retailer I can understand you're being a little "territorial", however this is an important discussion and if you read it, you may find it helpful.

You should be able to factor out anticipated bias and weigh up the facts.
i presume this answer is aimed at puresound and not me?

Ashley James
17-04-2008, 08:56
Measurement and listening are inextricably linked and I've explained this numerous times.

In our listening experience 0.1% from electronics is unpleasant compared to a good modern amplifier.

I've proved that distortion measurements mean nothing if an amp is clipping, I haven't mentioned that some Amps clip unpleasantly and sound even worse. Amps must clip tidily and have enough headroom, most haven't.

Loudspeakers all have remarkably similar harmonic distortion figures and an experts consider these are probably relatively benign because other time related distortions at much lower levels can be quite obtrusive. It's a difficult one but I do assure you that dropping noise or distortion that is already appreciably lower then the harmonic distortion in a loudspeaker does make and audible difference and am happy to prove it if you'd like to come and see us.

All that I'm telling you is well established fact and has been for years, what I resent is that you don't believe and assume AVI is unique in relaying them. The fact is that enthusiasts have been misled for years by hopeless hi fi journalist who believe they know more than the engineers designing the stuff.

So it's not about AVI, it's about established principles.


I'm sorry

ash

pure sound
17-04-2008, 08:56
I'm not a dealer. I don't recall putting that below my User Name. I'll ask for it to be changed.

Actually, unlike you, I don't sell items directly.
Perhaps you should put 'Dealer' below your user name! As a retailer, I suppose it's now to be expected that you'd belittle the efforts of your competitors, just as you do as a manufacturer.

Ashley James
17-04-2008, 08:57
i presume this answer is aimed at puresound and not me?
Yes I'm very sorry.

Ash

Marco
17-04-2008, 10:16
Marco I've no idea where the conversation is or what question I'm dodging so ask again.


Ashley, it doesn't really matter now; it was to do with your, IMO, obsessive 'scientific mentality' with hi-fi. Science is a wonderful thing and a valuable resource to man, but there's much more to hi-fi than just science and measurements. You dismiss subjective issues as "drivel" that experience has taught me are essential to enable a hi-fi system to reproduce music accurately, and by that I'm not talking about frequency responses, or suchlike, I'm talking about the natural colour and character of instruments and voices - subtle phrasing and harmonic detail that transforms musical performances from monochromatic 'cardboard cut-outs' to live-sounding, tangible events bristling with colour and passion.

Now you might dismiss the above again as "subjective drivel" and consider that good equipment (based on measurements) does this automatically given a suitable recording, but I don't believe that's necessarily the case. I've heard many systems which major on the principles you value and they always lack a certain je ne sais crois which allows one to get to the heart of the music. It's all very well achieving a sound that's "clean and clear" but communicating music effectively to the listener in order that they can suspend disbelief requires an appreciation of musical subtleties and how to achieve it in equipment design that in my opinion the goal of ultra low distortion alone cannot produce.

Things like cables which are properly designed for hi-fi use, equipment supports that allow systems to realise their full potential through reducing the effect of detrimental influences within the operating environment (Mana supports do this, hence why I use them), getting the mains set-up for the system right (as I have discussed elsewhere) are all in my experience fundamental in allowing a system to reproduce music accurately in terms of its emotive impact. Valves do this too by emulating more accurately the natural distortion present in real voices and instruments, which in my opinion is almost completely missed by solid state gear (and which is why I have moved to valves) particularly where the manufacturer's goal (e.g. AVI) is to remove all forms of distortion, some of which I believe is required to make music 'believable' and 'real'.

The fact is live music, and I mean the acoustic kind, is not free of distortion so how can hi-fi equipment which measures that way (to all intents and purposes) reproduce it accurately?

I would like you to think about that carefully and comment on it.

Your resolute dismissal of all of the above and your fixation with 'scientific analysis' as being the universal panacea for hi-fi in my opinion is causing you to miss these important aspects of musical reproduction in the design of your equipment, and that’s why I feel some people find the presentation of your ADM9s, for example, somewhat insipid and boring – one could say ‘monochromatic’, as I referred to earlier. Please don’t be offended by this – I’m simply attempting to give you a handle on how people of my mindset and experience with audio generally view things.

We can all learn from each other in this game - don’t make the fatal mistake of thinking you know it all.

Marco.

lurcher
17-04-2008, 10:21
Isn't that a bit misleading, 0.1% of seventh harmonic will certainly be audible and unpleasant, but I doubt you could hear 0.1% pure second. And certainly I doubt unless you were using electrostatics.

sastusbulbas
17-04-2008, 10:55
I would still like to see Ashley and JC post pictures of their audio system set ups at home.

:)

Marco
17-04-2008, 11:25
Good call, Steve. So would I.

I know the components JC uses but I have no idea what Ashley's system is at home, so it's about time he 'fessed up ;)

Ashley and JC,

Let's see some pics!

Marco.

Mr. C
17-04-2008, 11:27
0.1% distortion would be pretty grim in my book, sort of 2 year science project at 'secondary' school :lolsign:

Steve Toy
17-04-2008, 12:21
That I wouldn't know.

What I do know is we'll have a long wait before we see those JC/Ashley home system pics.

jcbrum
17-04-2008, 12:34
You've already seen Ashley's main system from his drawing room, it has Brio's and an 18" sub.

His study used to have Trios, and an integrated but for the last year or so is fitted with AppleTV and adm9's.

I think he might have sold the Brio's and so probably has secret development development stuff in the drawing room nowadays.

Since due to the nature of my work I have had to sign the Official Secrets Act, if I showed you pictures of my stuff I have to shoot you !

Hmmm,......... I should consider that option. ;)


back to the salt mine.

Marco
17-04-2008, 12:44
Good afternoon, JC.


You've already seen Ashley's main system from his drawing room, it has Brio's and an 18" sub.


I haven't. Where was this posted? A link would be good :)

Marco.

Ashley James
17-04-2008, 15:14
Not any more, I've now got ADM9s and subs in the kitchen and the sitting room.
We decided to stop making Brios, we're still making Trios to order and when things quieten down a bit we'll design some proper big Active speakers using the technology in the ADM9s.

The market for big speakers isn't very large in the UK and anyone who needs extra bass can more easily add a sub to ADM9's later on if he feels the need. This idea suits most people and it's slowed sales of Trios.

Ash

Ashley James
17-04-2008, 15:15
I forgot this: http://gallery.mac.com/kda132#100082/AVI-SubTrios&bgcolor=black

And I sent a picture of one of the Monos to Marco but he hasn't posted it for fear af frightening the opposition.

Ash

Marco
17-04-2008, 15:41
Yeah, right! :lol:

Nothing to add to my post earlier then Captain Mannering?

There's a question in bold typeface that requires your attention...

Marco.

sastusbulbas
17-04-2008, 16:16
I forgot this: http://gallery.mac.com/kda132#100082/AVI-SubTrios&bgcolor=black

And I sent a picture of one of the Monos to Marco but he hasn't posted it for fear af frightening the opposition.

Ash

Superb speakers Ashley,

The Sub was passive yes? What was its LF responce and cabinet volume?

You are right about the consumer market wanting smaller items though, and many of the few that do want bigger, IE a stereo pair like above with 15" Volt drivers :eyebrows:, cant afford the retail prices.

I did at one time think about building my own speakers with 12" or 15" volts, (this was before Wilslow Audio brought theirs out), back then my idea had been to use ATC mids and I believe Scanspeak treble units in an open baffle on top of the bass cabs, with drivers of equal/near equal sensitivity and an outboard crossover. It never got past drawings on paper. I also once had the opertunity to buy a pair of 15" Focal bass units, and reinvestigate, but chickened out.

Thing is though I would like a very deep even LF responce from a sealed cabinet, how big would that have had to be for either a 12" or 15"!

Steve

Marco
17-04-2008, 16:24
Yes, they look superb. That's what I call 'proper hi-fi', not those diddy little ADM9 'lifestyle' boxes!

What you want to do, Ashley, is stop targeting the hen-pecked husbands whose wife's won't 'allow' them to have proper speakers and sell to discerning enthusiasts with proper listening rooms like most of the people on here! :eyebrows:

It'll be more satisfying in the long run, I promise. You don't need the money anyway ;)

Marco.

Mr. C
17-04-2008, 16:56
Humm.... looks more like a basterdised PMC offspring to me. deep joy:rolleyes:

Marco
17-04-2008, 16:58
Tony, maybe PMCs are off-springs of AVI? ;)

Marco.

Mr. C
17-04-2008, 17:00
Say no more, where me Robbie Williams discs :-)

sastusbulbas
17-04-2008, 17:02
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Prince of Darkness
17-04-2008, 17:02
I've got sick of wading through the drivel posted by Ashley and JC in attempting to turn this forum into an advertising medium for AVI. I will not be bothering to browse this forum in future!:(

Marco
17-04-2008, 17:05
LOL. The one where he's standing rather nonchalantly alongside some 'mothafukka' big-boy PMCs? Yep, that's a classic. Word has it though he doesn't even use PMCs!!

He probably listens on ADM9s, as he's so discerning... :lolsign:

Marco.

Marco
17-04-2008, 17:07
I've got sick of wading through the drivel posted by Ashley and JC in attempting to turn this forum into an advertising medium for AVI. I will not be bothering to browse this forum in future!:(

Hi Kevin,

Don't be like that. We're all getting along rather well now :)

Ashley has even admitted that my old Sony CDP is good!

Marco.

jcbrum
17-04-2008, 18:12
Hmmm, I'm sorry you feel that way PoD,

I don't talk drivel deliberately and some think otherwise.

I did say that if I couldn't talk about my kit then I wouldn't post at all.

I did boycott the forum, and was invited back, with an assurance that circs had changed.

I have kept my posts mostly to just one thread, leaving you the run of any others that interest you.

What would you like me to do to make you feel differently ?

JC.

Ashley James
17-04-2008, 18:43
I've got sick of wading through the drivel posted by Ashley and JC in attempting to turn this forum into an advertising medium for AVI. I will not be bothering to browse this forum in future!:(

That isn't the intention and I'll soon run out of things to say anyway. Please don't desert, just factor me out instead.

with good intent

Ashley

pjdowns
17-04-2008, 19:17
Interesting set of posts here guys.

I kinda agree with everyone really. It is really good for Ash to be so passionate about his products and obviously JC is very impressed with the gear that he purchased from Apple and AVI, however, sometimes when people are passionate, they can go on a bit, no offense inteded Ash or JC.

Personally, I haven't heard AVI gear, although I am interested to see and hear their equipment.... Personally, I LOVE my current system, so it would take a minor miracle for me to change no matter how good other systems are ....

Also, with reference to digital/computer music, I am coming round to this way of thinking, especially after taking Filterlab's advise and converting using AIFF. Although it is still nice to hear analogue recordings and my CD player still wins over my Squeezebox (But then considering the price comparison, I guess it should really !!!) ... Although the difference isn't massive...

Hopefully we can all get on well in our little worlds :)

Oh and hope to see you all over at my forum again soon too ;) :gig:

Paul.

Ashley James
17-04-2008, 19:28
I keep telling everyone that it's not me that starts these debates, it's various contributors asking questions or questioning our claims. I'm sure it will cease soon once everyone has heard all that interests them.

Back to the cause of all these problems!

As I've explained before, we're all preconditioned by what we are used to. Marco is smitten with his system and will defend it's sound quality to the death. He also will not accept that if he imports a CD to his computer and plays it back via the Sony DAC that came with his CD player, that it will sound just as good as the CD transport. He isn’t being logical.

That he should love hi fi is understandable because he's used to it. His brain has adjusted to its shortcomings so he doesn't know they are there. This is what we all do. No hi fi system is perfect, they all have faults, but most of us don't hear them, we’re convinced that we’ve got a really good system. People don't upgrade or look for replacements until something happens that makes them see these faults. Usually being hungry, bad tempered or tired, triggers it. Once you've heard distortions, you can't get them out of your mind, they become an irritant.

The reason why we (AVI) believe that accurate and neutral is best is that it requires less effort to listen to and is therefore less tiring and more involving. An opposite extreme would the speaker on a small portable TV, you might have to concentrate hard to understand what's being said, but after a time, it becomes easier and you accept it. The same thing happens with hi fi although it’s not going to be as bad to start with.

One reason I detest records and many of you don't is that I heard the problems many years ago and have never been able to get them out of my mind since. I'm sure some turntable enthusiasts do actually believe they sound better than CD, they may do if they have a rotten hi fi system, but they may also do if the listener is so used to assuming they're right, especially when so much crap in the mags etc, supports the notion. In these circumstances, it’s very hard to switch the mechanism off and hear the vastly superior performance of CD.

Whenever I put forward these theories and the experiments that confirm them, various people get extremely cross with me and assume a personal insult, it's anything but, I'm merely explaining that human beings, me included, are deeply flawed and prone to all sorts of errors of judgement.

I believe that if people accepted what I'm saying and looked for ways to prove it, they be better prepared to decide whether or not the next upgrade or new system they are considering is better than the one they have.

My worry with a a group visiting me, is that if they are all absolutely convinced that what they have or might have is better than anything AVI and they are as anti as some of the incredibly vicious people who've appeared on various message boards to slag off ADM9's, then there is no point in their coming.
However if some of you are genuinely interested in what we're trying to do and can understand why ADM9s might be what we say they are, then you really are most welcome.

pjdowns
17-04-2008, 19:45
Ashley, All,

The only problem I foresee with your argument is that just because it is technically better doesn't necessarily mean that it sounds better.

My fathers system is almost certainly technically better than mine, although I prefer the sound of mine overall.

Also, how can a digital source be better than a analogue source, that just doesn't add up. Ultimately I am sure they'll invent something that beats it, but for now, from my experience and IMHO analogue sources out stretch digital significantly.

With regards to Hifi, it is all very personal so no wonder you have people on these forums having a go at you when you make negative comments about their systems. My opinion is that you are sometimes trying to change peoples opinion and that isn't necessarily your right !!!!

Like I have said before, however, I am very interested in hearing your ADM system purely from a curiosity point of view and I would have no intention of arriving in a negative mood, quite the reverse, just remember that ramming things down people throats, will grate and you'll find it will cause a backlash.

Also as previously stated, I love my system and yes I am convinced there are better and much more technically advanced systems available, but quite frankly I'm not that interested at present.....although never say never

I am in no way trying to be offensive to anyone, although I am sure that I will unintentionally at some point, I just love Hifi and music and like to discuss it with like minded people.

Paul.

sastusbulbas
17-04-2008, 20:04
My worry with a a group visiting me, is that if they are all absolutely convinced that what they have or might have is better than anything AVI and they are as anti as some of the incredibly vicious people who've appeared on various message boards to slag off ADM9's, then there is no point in their coming.
However if some of you are genuinely interested in what we're trying to do and can understand why ADM9s might be what we say they are, then you really are most welcome.


I do hope everyone is courteous and polite, and enjoys the day for what it is, an enjoyable demo of someone else's equipment, and a different approach to enjoying music. JC's transcribed 78's sound fun.

Personally I would love to get to hear Big Brio's and Trio's and that big sub in stereo configuration, and love to hear the ADM9's with and without a pair of their subs in stereo, in a relaxed fun bake-off.

I look forward to hearing how it all goes. (Edinburgh and no car makes dropping in a bit tedious)

Steve

anthonyTD
17-04-2008, 20:07
I keep telling everyone that it's not me that starts these debates, it's various contributors asking questions or questioning our claims. I'm sure it will cease soon once everyone has heard all that interests them.

Back to the cause of all these problems!

As I've explained before, we're all preconditioned by what we are used to. Marco is smitten with his system and will defend it's sound quality to the death. He also will not accept that if he imports a CD to his computer and plays it back via the Sony DAC that came with his CD player, that it will sound just as good as the CD transport. He isn’t being logical.

That he should love hi fi is understandable because he's used to it. His brain has adjusted to its shortcomings so he doesn't know they are there. This is what we all do. No hi fi system is perfect, they all have faults, but most of us don't hear them, we’re convinced that we’ve got a really good system. People don't upgrade or look for replacements until something happens that makes them see these faults. Usually being hungry, bad tempered or tired, triggers it. Once you've heard distortions, you can't get them out of your mind, they become an irritant.

The reason why we (AVI) believe that accurate and neutral is best is that it requires less effort to listen to and is therefore less tiring and more involving. An opposite extreme would the speaker on a small portable TV, you might have to concentrate hard to understand what's being said, but after a time, it becomes easier and you accept it. The same thing happens with hi fi although it’s not going to be as bad to start with.

One reason I detest records and many of you don't is that I heard the problems many years ago and have never been able to get them out of my mind since. I'm sure some turntable enthusiasts do actually believe they sound better than CD, they may do if they have a rotten hi fi system, but they may also do if the listener is so used to assuming they're right, especially when so much crap in the mags etc, supports the notion. In these circumstances, it’s very hard to switch the mechanism off and hear the vastly superior performance of CD.

Whenever I put forward these theories and the experiments that confirm them, various people get extremely cross with me and assume a personal insult, it's anything but, I'm merely explaining that human beings, me included, are deeply flawed and prone to all sorts of errors of judgement.

I believe that if people accepted what I'm saying and looked for ways to prove it, they be better prepared to decide whether or not the next upgrade or new system they are considering is better than the one they have.

My worry with a a group visiting me, is that if they are all absolutely convinced that what they have or might have is better than anything AVI and they are as anti as some of the incredibly vicious people who've appeared on various message boards to slag off ADM9's, then there is no point in their coming.
However if some of you are genuinely interested in what we're trying to do and can understand why ADM9s might be what we say they are, then you really are most welcome.

ash,
one of the main reasons you seem to rub people up the wrong way [imho] is that you are hell-bent on trying to prove that the only piece of kit that could possibly sound any good is one that tests perfect or near damn it.
but you seem to have been around for sometime in the audio business, way long enough to know that you can get for example an amplifier to test exceptionally well on the test bench, in most of the critical avenues you mention, time after time, but when you actually sit and listen to it, it can sound like the worst piece of crap ever! i understand that it is important not to add anything to the original signal, hence this would be a distortion of the truth, but you must also except that if the device reproducing the signal is over-damped with feedback, etc, to a degree that it stops very subtle information from being modulated ie, treats it as distortion, this is just as bad because you destroy the ambience and air of the original recording, hence the terms, flat, and two dimensional, etc, being applied to this type of sound...
i also understand what diffrent types of distortion can do, and even small amounts of odd harmonics can be really offensive, but even harmonics are tolerable even in quite large amounts [10%] because it's the way our ears work! again, i am not condoning distortion, i am merely pointing this out.
so come on ash, you're obviously inteligent, give us a little credit...:eyebrows::)

jcbrum
17-04-2008, 21:29
ATD, I am not able to agree with much of your post.

The only way to evaluate hifi is to test it, and that means applying criteria to the test results.

Listening to it is one of the tests. You have to recognize what your hearing, and be looking to measure it against a pre-determined standard.

Simply "enjoying" or being "involved" in the music is no real test at all. If the only person it pleases is you, then thats ok for you and useless for everyone else.

Other tests are electronic, and if they do not reveal the criterium you are wishing to measure, then you should review your testing procedure.

I have no difficulty in testing hifi equipment and knowing from the tests whether its doing the job properly. Listening to it is only one small part of the procedure. Measuring the results is far more important, other wise I cannot know how to improve it if it fails the tests.

When designing from scratch, no-one sets out to design the most perfect thing they can. Instead they design to meet a specification. Something other than that is pointless and commercially unnecessary.

JC.

anthonyTD
17-04-2008, 21:48
ATD, I am not able to agree with much of your post.

The only way to evaluate hifi is to test it, and that means applying criteria to the test results.

Listening to it is one of the tests. You have to recognize what your hearing, and be looking to measure it against a pre-determined standard.

Simply "enjoying" or being "involved" in the music is no real test at all. If the only person it pleases is you, then thats ok for you and useless for everyone else.

Other tests are electronic, and if they do not reveal the criterium you are wishing to measure, then you should review your testing procedure.

I have no difficulty in testing hifi equipment and knowing from the tests whether its doing the job properly. Listening to it is only one small part of the procedure. Measuring the results is far more important, other wise I cannot know how to improve it if it fails the tests.

When designing from scratch, no-one sets out to design the most perfect thing they can. Instead they design to meet a specification. Something other than that is pointless and commercially unnecessary.

JC.

thanks for that JC, but i was hoping that ash would have replied himself to this one,mainly because it was about him! but yet again, you seem to have stepped in on his behalf!
like the prince of darkness, i too have realy had enough of what i am seeing on this forum lately, i dont usualy go on forums, but i made an exception with this one, because 1, i was asked, and two, because it looked like a site where open minded people could air their views and correspond with like minded folk, i am begining to think i made a mistake!
thanks JC for that...:(:(:(:(

jcbrum
17-04-2008, 21:53
Sorry ATD, I made the assumption that the matter was open to debate.

No offense meant, I'll withdraw my comments and delete my post if you would prefer it.

JC.

anthonyTD
17-04-2008, 22:03
Sorry ATD, I made the assumption that the matter was open to debate.

No offense meant, I'll withdraw my comments and delete my post if you would prefer it.

JC.
JC,
the main problem [and probably the most distructive] with your last post is that it assumes, and or implies that i or people like me only make equipment that sounds good to me, and that i/we are not interested in test measurements,,, you may read my posts, but you dont seem to "READ" my posts, if you get my meaning!!!:confused::confused::confused:

Marco
17-04-2008, 22:23
Ashley,


As I've explained before, we're all preconditioned by what we are used to. Marco is smitten with his system and will defend it's sound quality to the death.


It's not a question of me 'defending my system to the death'; I'm simply pointing out that in my opinion valves, for example, replicate the natural sound of music more successfully than solid state equipment does, and my opinion is based on fairly extensive experience of listening to a variety of both types of hi-fi equipment over the years. I genuinely believe that in this area of musical communication valves are superior, and it's for a good reason, Ashley, not simply that I'm "smitten" with my system in some sort of valueless way. You make it sound like I'm defending something stubbornly just for the sake of it. I can assure you I'm not - it goes much deeper than that: it's about what makes music sound like real music and not a manufactured facsimile of it.


He also will not accept that if he imports a CD to his computer and plays it back via the Sony DAC that came with his CD player, that it will sound just as good as the CD transport. He isn’t being logical.


Ashley, I suspect it's not intended, but do you realise how arrogant and self-opinionated you're coming across? What's logic got to do with it?

Why should I simply "accept" what you tell me when in many instances it's in direct contradiction to my own listening experiences? You are not my teacher!

You need to start listening and learning from others instead of preaching and dictating the 'one true path' like a supercilious lecturer. Wake up and smell the coffee, there is no one true path in audio!!


That he should love hi fi is understandable because he's used to it. His brain has adjusted to its shortcomings so he doesn't know they are there.


Bloody hell, I honestly can't believe I've just read that!! So you've now appointed yourself as an amateur psychologist as well as my audio guru? Get a grip.

Have you ever entertained the notion that it could be YOUR brain that has adjusted to the shortcomings of your system so that you don't know they are there? I'd seriously think about that if I were you.


This is what we all do. No hi fi system is perfect, they all have faults, but most of us don't hear them, we’re convinced that we’ve got a really good system.


Indeed so. But what makes you think that you've 'got it right' and everyone else has 'got it wrong'? Your system isn't perfect either. What makes you think that your equipment and ethos with audio is the benchmark from which all others are judged?


The reason why we (AVI) believe that accurate and neutral is best is that it requires less effort to listen to and is therefore less tiring and more involving.


Eh?? "Less effort to listen to"? What exactly does that mean? It doesn't sound like a very purist approach to me, Ashley. It sounds like you're saying you design your equipment to produce a sort of bland noise that doesn't inspire you to want to listen. That's not music. If this is how ADM9s sound then I can tell you right now I'll hate them.


An opposite extreme would the speaker on a small portable TV, you might have to concentrate hard to understand what's being said, but after a time, it becomes easier and you accept it.


Jeez, I can't believe I'm reading this!! So you're saying why bother trying to make an accurate musical sound - just produce something which is bland and unchallenging and in time you'll get used to it? Bloody hell, I thought that I was talking to a manufacturer who valued high-fidelity!


One reason I detest records and many of you don't is that I heard the problems many years ago and have never been able to get them out of my mind since.


And I think you're allowing that experience now to cloud your better judgement.


I'm sure some turntable enthusiasts do actually believe they sound better than CD, they may do if they have a rotten hi fi system, but they may also do if the listener is so used to assuming they're right, especially when so much crap in the mags etc, supports the notion. In these circumstances, it’s very hard to switch the mechanism off and hear the vastly superior performance of CD.


Ashley, here's a radical thought for you: some turntable enthusiasts actually believe their turntables sound better than CD players because *actually* they do!! There is nothing 'imagined' about it.

As you know I've got an extremely good CD player, and yet if I feed the Technics with some mint well-recorded vinyl it wipes the floor with the Sony. The sound the SL-1210 produces is just much more like real music, as opposed to merely a very good recording of real music - that's the difference. I'm also far from alone in preferring vinyl to CD. There are numerous audiophiles all over the world, some of them well-known and highly respected, who've arrived at a similar conclusion and who consider that vinyl is the only serious medium for discerning music lovers.


Whenever I put forward these theories and the experiments that confirm them, various people get extremely cross with me and assume a personal insult, it's anything but, I'm merely explaining that human beings, me included, are deeply flawed and prone to all sorts of errors of judgement.


I agree, so therefore your judgement could be as flawed as anyone else's. What makes you think your experiments are 100% conclusive?


I believe that if people accepted what I'm saying, {blah, blah}...


Don't you see that's the problem here, Ashley? You want others to 'accept' what you're saying but you're not prepared to accept what others are telling you?

Don't you believe that you can learn from other people's experiences, or are yours the only ones that count?

Paul wrote:


just remember that ramming things down people throats, will grate and you'll find it will cause a backlash.


Ashley, I like you as a person but Paul is absolutely spot-on. I say this with the best intentions - it's time you took notice of people telling you the above and done something about it. Trust me, it is not endearing you to people or likely to make them want to buy your products, and I'm not talking about those whom you deal with off of forums. If you're seeking to try and sell ADM9s or any other AVI products here or on any other forum you will need to change your approach.

Marco.

Marco
17-04-2008, 22:34
like the prince of darkness, i too have realy had enough of what i am seeing on this forum lately, i dont usualy go on forums, but i made an exception with this one, because 1, i was asked, and two, because it looked like a site where open minded people could air their views and correspond with like minded folk, i am begining to think i made a mistake!
thanks JC for that...:(:(:(:(


Oi! Don't even think about going anywhere or I'll have Billy Bennett give you a 'Hengoed perm' you'll never forget! :lolsign:

JC,

Stop being Ashley's mouthpiece. He's more than capable of speaking for himself.

Marco.

sastusbulbas
17-04-2008, 22:34
So,

Are valves not reputed to be better than transistors? With pretty much how you execute the circuit being paramount?, I was under the impression you can make one sound like the other and vice versa too?

Much like digital cannot yet match the resolution of analogue?

Personally I like valve pre amps (and Phono Stages), mainly Audio Research and EAR (Tim's stuff is enyoyable and very quiet) and Sonic Frontiers, have tried Bat and found the above far better, never found or heard a suitable valve amp for my speakers, and I trust many of the reviews during the early 90's which also quoted mismatches.

;)

anthonyTD
17-04-2008, 22:39
So,

Are valves not reputed to be better than transistors? With pretty much how you execute the circuit being paramount?, I was under the impression you can make one sound like the other and vice versa too?

Much like digital cannot yet match the resolution of analogue?

Personally I like valve pre amps (and Phono Stages), mainly Audio Research and EAR (Tim's stuff is enyoyable and very quiet) and Sonic Frontiers, have tried Bat and found the above far better, never found or heard a suitable valve amp for my speakers, and I trust many of the reviews during the early 90's which also quoted mismatches.

;)
valve amplifiers need to see a constant impedence with frequency, have a look at some of the graphs of loudspeakers some people try to use valve amps with, and you will start to see the picture!!!:(

anthonyTD
17-04-2008, 22:43
Oi! Don't even think about going anywhere or I'll have Billy Bennett give you a 'Hengoed perm' you'll never forget! :lolsign:

JC,

Stop being Ashley's mouthpiece. He's more than capable of speaking for himself.

Marco.
PLEASE, PLEASE,NO,
anything but that, every hair style i asked that man for turned out to be short back and sides!!! scared me for life....:ner:

jcbrum
18-04-2008, 09:56
Marco,

[quote=Marco] "As you know I've got an extremely good CD player, and yet if I feed the Technics with some mint well-recorded vinyl it wipes the floor with the Sony." [unquote]


Well one or both is defective then. Given the simplicity of the technics it's probably the sony.

Or it could be you. ............... or the test criteria you are using .........

This is what I was trying to point out to ATD........... this kind of test is not much use to anyone except except you !

And yet you want to impose it's results on people like me and Ashley.

It's as if you are trying to tell him how to do his job.

He's done all right so far using his criteria and expertise, and so have I thanks.

Marco
18-04-2008, 10:32
Well one or both is defective then. Given the simplicity of the technics it's probably the sony.


Is that right? And you're an expert, are you? :lol:

You've never heard my system, JC, nor the individual components within it (you are not familiar with how the Technics and Sony have been modified) so you're not qualified to comment on their performance.


Or it could be you. ............... or the test criteria you are
using .........


Why must there be something 'wrong' with my procedure or me? Is it simply because neither conforms to the wholly scientific principles so beloved of Ashley and you? I know it's a really radical thought for you guys but I could actually be right! (In terms of my system at least) ;)


This is what I was trying to point out to ATD........... this kind of test is not much use to anyone except except you !


Why? And 'ATD' has got more knowledge of and experience with hi-fi equipment, particularly valves, in his pinky than you have in that big, stubborn, 'scientific head' of yours :ner:


And yet you want to impose it's results on people like me and Ashley.


Why not? And what do you mean by "people like me and Ashley"? Do you think that you're somehow superior to the rest of us? At the end of the day we're talking about people's individual hi-fi systems and their enjoyment of music. There is no 'one true path' to follow as far as that's concerned no matter how much Ashley or you attempt to lecture us otherwise.


It's as if you are trying to tell him how to do his job


No I'm not. What's his job got to do with it? He's trying to tell me what's 'wrong' with my hi-fi system, and make out he knows better than me about my own system, giving me 'advice' which I know will not improve matters. All I've done is give good reasons, based on my experience, why the way I've chosen to assemble my system is right for me. He doesn't know my system or how I like to listen to music. He should respect these facts and stop dictating to me how his way is the 'right' way.


He's done all right so far using his criteria and expertise, and so have I thanks.


I'm sure you both have, and I'm pleased for you. So have I, too, actually. It's time both of you realised once and for all that there is no 'correct' way of enjoying recorded music on a hi-fi system. There are always compromises - it's simply a matter of choosing your own ones, building a system around them, and then kicking back and enjoying the music :smoking:

Why are you taking this personally and acting so defensive?

Marco.

Ashley James
18-04-2008, 10:51
I can't be bothered to enter into a protracted argument when I believe that I've already explained why people like equipment that's flawed. None of it was intended as arrogant or a personal slur and it shouldn't be taken as such. Read the message and leave the messenger out of it.

JC has clarified the issue.

My contention is that the Hi Fi Industry has lost meaning because it doesn't use the principles that we (and most of the rest of the world) do to sell it's products, it uses rather less honest ones that revolve around "musical involvement", "tapping feet to music" etc. In our opinion it's the sort of bollocks that allows Charlatans a chance to make money with products that don't offer value or performance and in some instances are a total rip off. Russ Andrews and Naim's mains lead being prime contenders.

The problem I'm having is that everyone assumes that the principles I'm describing apply to AVI alone when they bloody well don't! They're universal and proven!

I see the situation as being like a debate between the Medical Fraternity and faith healers. One side (ours) having hard facts, Science, common sense and logic to back it up and the other, no more than an implicit belief in their ability to tell that it works.

A Classic example of the problem is Marco's refusal to believe that the if he imports one of his CD's to his Laptop and plays it back through the same DAC as he uses for his CD transport, that it'll sound the same. Given the evidence for computers as a music source, like being used on the Pro-Audio side for twenty years or so now, you'd have thought, he'd have accepted it.

Another example is Vinyl. In simple terms is has 1% (-45dB) hum, hiss, noise and distortion at best, it has 7% Intermodulation distortion (nasty stuff) and if you set up the vertical tracking angle correctly using a test disc and a distortion analyser, the instructions talk about -30dB or 3% if both channels are correctly balanced. Poor channel separation and phase problems are bad too. I think this equates to 8 bit digital at best and whatever way you talk about it, it's dreadful compared to 16 bit Digital.

16 bit Digital means 0.0015% distortion, about 110dB S/N and so on. CD is at least 100 times better than Vinyl. So how on earth can anyone argue that vinyl's more musical!
I can't stand the sound of it and these figures tell me why.

All sorts of arguments have been put forward for why vinyl is better than it is and I'm sure supporters on here will belabour me for daring to suggest otherwise. I'm sorry, I respect that people do love their records and I've suggested reasons why this might be. I can even understand why people enjoy playing with turntables because I have very old cars that are awful compared to modern ones and I enjoy them. I'll go further, I'll even agree that records sound better than the truly awful measurements suggest, but I'll still hate the sound of the things!

I hope you can now see that whilst I disagree with most of you, I don't dislike anyone, I wouldn't wish to offend anyone and I'm not trying to persuade you to buy AVI.

What I'm actually doing is presenting a completely different point of view, supporting some of it with facts and asking you to think long and hard as to whether it makes any sense. If it doesn't there's no point in visiting us and taking up hours of my time that I need to deal with the people who like what we say and are buying the stuff.

Equally I do not intend to insult any other products, I understand that there are lots of reasons why people buy things and enjoy them, other that the reasons people buy what we make. If you search the Greek Audio Society on Youtube, you'll see a group of enthusiasts who've each spent about 200,000 Euros on huge Horn Loudspeakers, 7 Watt Triode Amplifiers and Earthquake proof turntables and as are happy as Larry. They love it and I'm sure they wouldn't like being told ADM9's will piss all over it, but they will and it's proveable.

Please accept that you're not going to agree with a lot of what I say, but don't assume I'm insulting you when I'm not, I'm simply giving logical reasons for thinking differently and waiting for someone to make me look a total ass doing the same thing.

Marco
18-04-2008, 10:56
I think that's been done already, Ashley!

But I'll get to your post later. No offence, but it's simply more of the usual bollocks, I'm afraid. I'm getting tired of this, too.

One thing I will comment on quickly is this:


A Classic example of the problem is Marco's refusal to believe that the if he imports one of his CD's to his Laptop and plays it back through the same DAC as he uses for his CD transport, that it'll sound the same. Given the evidence for computers as a music source, like being used on the Pro-Audio side for twenty years or so now, you'd have thought, he'd have accepted it.


Why on earth should I??

It's in direct contadiction to my own listening experiences! You don't know 'better'. And my experience of pro-audio so far has been that a) much of it sounds shit, and b) the majority of people who work in it wouldn't know a good sound if it jumped up, bit them on their arse, and said: "Hello mamma!"

Marco.

Mr Ed
18-04-2008, 11:01
My system has the ability to bring tears to my eyes, I'm sure I would get the same result with an iPod and some ADM9s.

But not perhaps not for the same reason....

Ed.

Marco
18-04-2008, 11:08
Nice one, Ed :lolsign:

Marco.

jcbrum
18-04-2008, 11:37
/snip/.

And my experience of pro-audio so far has been that a) much of it sounds shit, and b) the majority of people who work in it wouldn't know a good sound if it jumped up, bit them on their arse, and said: "Hello mamma!"



So how do you account for the fact that it's the same people who make you beloved vinyl records. ?

(from a digital file on a computer)


Almost everyone in the world gave up using valves 40 years ago and CD players 4 or 5 years ago because the superceding technology is better.

(Beatles albums are worth discussing btw !)


I know that at the moment you think your valve record player wipes the floor with your 20yr old cdp and my laptop, but you haven't heard my laptop so your remarks are merely posturing :)

Even when you have heard my stuff your prejudice may be too much for your own psyche to overcome.

However in an attempt to bring enlightenment I slog on ;)

anthonyTD
18-04-2008, 12:02
So how do you account for the fact that it's the same people who make you beloved vinyl records. ?

(from a digital file on a computer)


Almost everyone in the world gave up using valves 40 years ago and CD players 4 or 5 years ago because the superceding technology is better.

(Beatles albums are worth discussing btw !)


I know that at the moment you think your valve record player wipes the floor with your 20yr old cdp and my laptop, but you haven't heard my laptop so your remarks are merely posturing :)

:scratch::confused::mental:


Even when you have heard my stuff your prejudice may be too much for your own psyche to overcome.

However in an attempt to bring enlightenment I slog on ;)

do you know, i have been asking myself this question lately, WHY,ON EARTH IF ASH AND YOU ARE SO EXPERIENCED ANS SUCCESFULL AT WHAT YOU DO, WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO COME ON TO SITES LIKE THIS AND BOTHER TRYING TO EDUCATE WHAT MUST SEEM LIKE TOTAL NE-ANDERTHAL MENTALITY TO YOU, IT JUST SEEMS TO ME THAT YOUR NOT REALY AS CONFIDENT ABOUT WHAT YOU DO AS YOU WOULD HAVE US BELEIVE, BECAUSE LOGIC WOULD TELL ME THAT YOUR TIME COULD BE MUCH BETTER USED SPENDING ALL THAT MONEY, AND ENJOYING YOURSELVES, AND BEING LIKE THE REAL SUCCESFULL PEOPLE WHO PROMOTE THE SAME PHILOSOPHY AS YOU, THAT IS, NOT GIVING A FLYING F++K ABOUT US, OR FORUMS... ITS SEEMS YOU NEED US MORE THAN WE NEED YOU, WHY!!!:scratch::confused::mental:

jcbrum
18-04-2008, 12:14
:)Because we're nice people:)

xxx J.

anthonyTD
18-04-2008, 12:17
:)Because we're nice people:)

xxx J.

MEANING???:scratch::scratch::scratch:

anthonyTD
18-04-2008, 12:25
:)Because we're nice people:)

xxx J.
by the way, nice wrigle JC, got out of that one easy heh:lol::gig:

snapper
18-04-2008, 12:29
Almost everyone in the world gave up using CD players 4 or 5 years ago because the superceding technology is better.




:lolsign:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol:




:mental::mental::mental::mental:


You're really taking the piss now.



:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Mr. C
18-04-2008, 12:35
JC, have you considered therapy? I am sure a 12 month support package could be put together with the kind assistance from the folks on here.
With a bit of luck, a trailing wind and some components that can actually reproduce music and given enough time away form forums and Ash.
They maybe a glimmer of hope for you. Else consider a eternal damnation forced to endure the eon's listening through AD9's, spare a thought for your family and friends that have been dying to say something, yet feared for the sanity.
JC ACT NOW before the indoctrination becomes complete Its not too late...................................

jcbrum
18-04-2008, 12:40
you've only got to look at the retail sales figures, David.

Hardly any CDP's are made at all, and over 200 million have been dumped in favour of computers for music sources.

These are world wide figures of course. UK is roughly 5 or 10%.

anthonyTD
18-04-2008, 12:43
do you know what folks,
i think i have worked out why ash, and jc come onto forums like these,
its because they try their best but in the nicest posible way to antaganise people [ME INCLUDED] who after-all are only here to help and to offer ALTERNATIVE advice free of charge to anyone wishing to gain certain knowledge or information that they wouldnt be able to find elsewhere, and if i am right, what usually happens is we get so pissed off with them that we either leave, or worst, we lose our cool, and finaly end up saying something we cannot take back,which in return makes us look like the bad guys... either way they have WON, the people on these sites lose out because all they have left is their biggoted one sided argument, but then, its not even an argument, because there,s no one left to chalenge them! hence, the sales of AVI equipment goes up!!!
ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN BOYS!!!:eyebrows::eyebrows:

jcbrum
18-04-2008, 12:52
Mr C, thank you for your concern.

You'll be telling me it's all a conspiracy next. :)

I can understand the niche market that you seem to operate in but do you seriously think everybody is going to fall for your "schpiel" when the evidence is so overwhelmingly expressed in sales figures and the actions of users.

Music sales are downloads nowadays, not records. A computer is used to play them.

Many people want to use an ipod. An iPod is useless without a computer to load it up.

The same computer can play the music library through digital loudspeakers.

It sounds very good indeed.

Mine is better than a sony cdp and technics tt.

It's that simple. The whole world is realising it. QED.

jcbrum
18-04-2008, 12:56
Ahh, sorry, .............

It's ATD with the conspiracy theory ....:);)

Colinx
18-04-2008, 12:58
I do wish people would stop confusing mass market sales, to generally speaking people who don't give a ********** with people who actually listen. One side of the argument is about ease of use, instant purchase and gratification, oh and avi plus mac, the other side is about people with a real love and feel for music, how it's played live (not digital normally) and its reproduction in the home.

Marco
18-04-2008, 13:00
JC,


So how do you account for the fact that it's the same people who make you beloved vinyl records. ?


I don't, but I have to use decent equipment to make the most of the mess they (mostly) give us to work with!

The general standard of recording quality these days out with of the audiophile arena or record labels that care about sound quality, particularly with commercial mainstream music, is frankly appalling, and that applies to both vinyl and CD. I won't even mention compressed shit like MP3!


(from a digital file on a computer)


It's not all done that way. High quality audiophile recordings on CD are analogue until the final process, and in the case of records, the process is complete; hence why audiophile CDs (of decent music!) sound much better than much of what's available commercially, and the vinyl records better still! CDs marked 'AAD' from the mid to late 80s were the same.

It also explains why the vinyl pressings from the 50s and 60s were generally of a much higher quality than those of today because the process was simpler, high quality microphones were used, and the mastering was carried out by talented recording engineers where sound quality was the priority. Nowadays everything is mass-produced on computers by recording engineers who in general couldn't care less about recording quality, and music is treated as a throw-away commodity to the detriment of not only sound quality but the value of collecting it in a physical format.

Storing music on a computer hard-drive is 'soulless' in comparison to the ritual of putting on a record, touching and feeling it as you place it on the turntable platter, and listening to the stylus track the lead-in groove before the music starts. And then there's the whole package of a vinyl album; the gatefold sleeves, the often beautiful artwork on the cover, the memories which are evoked when playing the same records you've owned since a teenager - it's a tactile 'human' experience that accessing music via a computer can never emulate. The same thing applies to original CDs, although to a lesser extent. Leaving sound quality aside, for that reason alone, I will always have a turntable and a record collection.


Almost everyone in the world gave up using valves 40 years ago and CD players 4 or 5 years ago...


Who cares??? Why you seem to think this should matter to me I have no idea! I've never 'followed the herd' in the past and I'm not about to start now.

Thing is, valves & vinyl are as popular amongst genuine enthusiasts now as they've ever been. It's only you old gits that like to hold back the years trying to be 'cool' by using the latest technology :eyebrows:


...because the superceding technology is better.


In terms of convenience, undoubtedly; but not IMO as far as absolute sound quality is concerned.


(Beatles albums are worth discussing btw !)


Why? Discuss away!


I know that at the moment you think your valve record player...


Valve record player? That sounds like a great idea! Shit, where do you get those? :lol:


...wipes the floor with your 20yr old cdp and my laptop, but you haven't heard my laptop so your remarks are merely posturing


Well it makes a change to you "posturing" instead about my T/T and CDP!


Even when you have heard my stuff your prejudice may be too much for your own psyche to overcome.


My only "prejudice" is that I value sound quality more than anything else with hi-fi. I couldn't give a toss about 'the latest and (supposedly) greatest' ways of playing recorded music. If it sounds better then I'll invest in it, if it doesn't I won't. I've had some positive experiences with certain aspects of computer audio so far but it's been in no way universal.


However in an attempt to bring enlightenment I slog on ;)


Excellent. You might want to have a word with your pal then and finalise a date for me to come down. I shall arrive with an open mind (as always) and the only criterion for me will be what sounds best, purely and simply, so bring it on :smoking:

Marco.

anthonyTD
18-04-2008, 13:01
I do wish people would stop confusing mass market sales, to generally speaking people who don't give a ********** with people who actually listen. One side of the argument is about ease of use, instant purchase and gratification, oh and avi plus mac, the other side is about people with a real love and feel for music, how it's played live (not digital normally) and its reproduction in the home.
well said that man;););)

Marco
18-04-2008, 13:10
I do wish people would stop confusing mass market sales, to generally speaking people who don't give a ********** with people who actually listen. One side of the argument is about ease of use, instant purchase and gratification, oh and avi plus mac, the other side is about people with a real love and feel for music, how it's played live (not digital normally) and its reproduction in the home.


Great post, Colin, and spot on! I totally agree.

Marco.

anthonyTD
18-04-2008, 13:18
jc,
you keep on trying to convince us that because some recording studios [NOT ALL] are using computer technology to record some albums [NOT ALL] that that some how obviously means that it must be better, that's not it and you know it, the only reason most of them do it that way is out of convenience, and not because of its sonic qualities, to be honest most of them dont give a stuff about recording quality because they know that most of what is recorded is by "here today, gone tomorow" artists which by next year wont even be remembered by the fickle public who buy the crap in the first place!
and that's the sad truth... the saddest thing of all is we know it, but we cant do a damn thing about it, apart from put you people [ JC ASH] in your place at every opportunity when we see you trying to indoctrinise [spelling] your "one suits all" mentality on the unsuspecting public...:eyebrows::eyebrows::eyebrows:

Steve Toy
18-04-2008, 13:18
Ditto to Colin.

Now, if I've a choice between spending a grand on ADM9s, with or without another listening session, or getting on for that amount with Anthony to modify my amp without hearing how it will sound first, Anthony wins.

Why? Because I've heard his interpretation of musically involving and I like it. ADM9s don't even do 'musically involving.' They seem to do only 'present and correct' and only then (presumably) away from a noisy show environment.

Nick
18-04-2008, 13:22
So how do you account for the fact that it's the same people who make you beloved vinyl records. ?

(from a digital file on a computer)


Almost everyone in the world gave up using valves 40 years ago and CD players 4 or 5 years ago because the superceding technology is better.

(Beatles albums are worth discussing btw !)


I know that at the moment you think your valve record player wipes the floor with your 20yr old cdp and my laptop, but you haven't heard my laptop so your remarks are merely posturing :)

Even when you have heard my stuff your prejudice may be too much for your own psyche to overcome.

However in an attempt to bring enlightenment I slog on ;)

I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in one of these "discussions" again but the above is condescending in the extreme.

With your comment regarding valve usage are you talking professional circles only ?

The problem with the way you state your position is that it just doesn't allow for you to be wrong. So, far from Marco showing prejudice, it seems that maybe you are equally prejudiced against record players, CDPs and valve amplifiers.

From what I've heard so far in the computer based replay (note I specified replay) I will be sticking with my archaic valves for some time. If this hobby of ours is about playing music that's where my nirvana lies. Of course if I just wanted something to measure well I'd pop to Dixon's and buy a lifestyle system.

BTW and out of genuine interest I would love to know the system you have which produces results that you feel will beat any other system around.

Marco
18-04-2008, 13:32
From what I've heard so far in the computer based replay (note I specified replay) I will be sticking with my archaic valves for some time. If this hobby of ours is about playing music that's where my nirvana lies. Of course if I just wanted something to measure well I'd pop to Dixon's and buy a lifestyle system.


Me too. I will never sell my valve preamp and power amp - they simply play music better than anything else I've owned, and I've owned plenty of top-quality kit.

The bit I've highlighted represents a typical ADM9 customer, only they generally like to have a 'prestige' badge on the front ;)

Marco.

anthonyTD
18-04-2008, 13:53
Me too. I will never sell my valve preamp and power amp - they simply play music better than anything else I've owned, and I've owned plenty of top-quality kit.

The bit I've highlighted represents a typical ADM9 customer, only they generally like to have a 'prestige' badge on the front ;)

Marco.

you know what guys,
all jokes a-side,
i have over the last few months had more calls from youngsters who have had the privilege to listen to even medi-ocre [spelling] valve equipment ring me up than ever, and been so excited and on a high about what they had heard, i thought some of them had wet themselves, they described what they had experienced in sonic qualities over the stuff they had been used to listening to[ADM 9?] and like many of their generation become to except as "good stuff" they seemed totaly bemused by this somewhat dated technology as some on here would put it, and why it did what it did...there is also some very good designed semi-conductor equipment out there that does things on a similar level, meaning they portray music with depth, air, and feeling!!!
i supose its a bit like comparing a chromarti [terminator] with a real human being !!!;):):eyebrows:

anthonyTD
18-04-2008, 14:00
Ditto to Colin.

Now, if I've a choice between spending a grand on ADM9s, with or without another listening session, or getting on for that amount with Anthony to modify my amp without hearing how it will sound first, Anthony wins.

Why? Because I've heard his interpretation of musically involving and I like it. ADM9s don't even do 'musically involving.' They seem to do only 'present and correct' and only then (presumably) away from a noisy show environment.

thanks steve,
it's good to know that you honestly appreciated what you heard when you visited, i did the same with you as i do with everyone else who comes to my house, i give them the controls, remotes etc, and let them play what they want, as loud or as quiet as they like, and leave them to it for a while...:):):)

Ashley James
18-04-2008, 14:03
I suspect that you'd be in awe of many of out customers because a very high proportion are at the very top of the market, highly intelligent, high earning, professionals that share AVI's view of the state of the hi fi market.

There are some inexcusable generalisations being made on here that have nothing to do with the facts and are probably wrong. All AVI customers are looking for cheap commercial solutions and everybody buying valves and vinyl is top notch discerning Audiophile, Studios don't all use computers and so on. It's all nonsense and not relevant to the issues.

We, like most of the Industry make measurements and relate them to what we hear, we use parts in collaboration with their manufacturers to get the best from them and we, ask quite a few "golden ears" to come and check out anything new before we go to market with it. These will be people making recordings or producing music as well as just enjoying it. Geoffrey Burgon is here now so you can search on him to see what he does.

I have every respect for what you're doing and what you enjoy, the only are of disagreement is the suggestion that any of it will perform better than the best of modern technology, whether from AVI or other companies at the cutting edge.

Ash

anthonyTD
18-04-2008, 14:13
I suspect that you'd be in awe of many of out customers because a very high proportion are at the very top of the market, highly intelligent, high earning, professionals that share AVI's view of the state of the hi fi market.

There are some inexcusable generalisations being made on here that have nothing to do with the facts and are probably wrong. All AVI customers are looking for cheap commercial solutions and everybody buying valves and vinyl is top notch discerning Audiophile, Studios don't all use computers and so on. It's all nonsense and not relevant to the issues.

We, like most of the Industry make measurements and relate them to what we hear, we use parts in collaboration with their manufacturers to get the best from them and we, ask quite a few "golden ears" to come and check out anything new before we go to market with it. These will be people making recordings or producing music as well as just enjoying it. Geoffrey Burgon is here now so you can search on him to see what he does.

I have every respect for what you're doing and what you enjoy, the only are of disagreement is the suggestion that any of it will perform better than the best of modern technology, whether from AVI or other companies at the cutting edge.

Ash

ash,
dont try and justify your statues in the industry by playing the "i know him, or he,s a customer of mine" card, it wont wash mate, i have profesors, top musicians, and people of all walks of life, including doctors, racing drivers, formula one camera men etc, etc, as customers, but unlike you i dont normaly use them to back me up when i get into a bit of a tight squeeze...i can usually rationalise my way out of it, something you and JC seem to find it difficult to do.... ;););):eyebrows:

Marco
18-04-2008, 14:16
Studios don't all use computers and so on. It's all nonsense and not relevant to the issues.


It's not nonsense, Ashley. Not all studios use computers in terms of digital mastering throughout the recording chain, as you well know.

The ones that don't, IMO, and use analogue techniques instead as far as possible, providing care is taken in the recording process, generally produce recordings of superior sound quality.

Marco.

Steve Toy
18-04-2008, 14:16
I suspect that you'd be in awe of many of out customers because a very high proportion are at the very top of the market, highly intelligent, high earning, professionals that share AVI's view of the state of the hi fi market


There are plenty of undiscerning folks in this particular sector who, for example, could not tell the difference between a £200 Denon and a £12,000 Esoteric CD player. The marketing technique of trying to tap into lifestyle aspirations on this much more discerning forum is not likely to work.

Mr. C
18-04-2008, 14:52
JC,

You are a wooden spoon enhancement specialist Bsc Eng (with Hons).
Just for the record, I have some superb recordings in both analogue and digital (non audiophile too) (most studio pro tools and there ilk ) record at 32 bits and 384khz minimum, it is then down-sampled to good old red book.
There is a lot of Male Bovine excrement being banded about about on this thread lol
I would too concur with Tony (M) on the valve interest front, in the last 18 months I have seen a large up-serge in inquires and sales on the thermionic front too.
BTW JC we have our own version of a server based system, with a various devices from the Ubiquitous SB3 (with custom psu/regs/clocks etc ) dedicated mains runs and cables and a choice of up-to 20 dac's ranging from £120 to £18K, yet it struggles to keep up with a quality £5K cdp.
Griffo touched on the DTS HD master format, we have been running it few months now, although in its infancy it shows the way forward in digital replay formats.
Though we are using a quality version of this format rather than the linn (so music is produced) :piano:

jcbrum
18-04-2008, 15:30
could not tell the difference between a £200 Denon and a £12,000 Esoteric CD player.

Well i've heard them and they're crap compared to my laptop.


Marco, valve pre-amp + valve amp + tt = valve record player, innit ?

jcbrum
18-04-2008, 15:34
JC,

You are a wooden spoon enhancement specialist Bsc Eng (with Hons).
Just for the record, I have some superb recordings in both analogue and digital (non audiophile too) (most studio pro tools and there ilk ) record at 32 bits and 384khz minimum, it is then down-sampled to good old red book.
There is a lot of Male Bovine excrement being banded about about on this thread lol
I would too concur with Tony (M) on the valve interest front, in the last 18 months I have seen a large up-serge in inquires and sales on the thermionic front too.
BTW JC we have our own version of a server based system, with a various devices from the Ubiquitous SB3 (with custom psu/regs/clocks etc ) dedicated mains runs and cables and a choice of up-to 20 dac's ranging from £120 to £18K, yet it struggles to keep up with a quality £5K cdp.
Griffo touched on the DTS HD master format, we have been running it few months now, although in its infancy it shows the way forward in digital replay formats.
Though we are using a quality version of this format rather than the linn (so music is produced) :piano:

What have you got all that load of old crap for ? :)

All you need is a laptop, Aex, and Digital spkrs. :)

(Hint : Dump all the junk, keep the quality £5k cdp for a comparison bemchmark, and start again with a MacBook, you won't look back) ;)

Marco
18-04-2008, 15:45
Personally, I think it's best just to laugh at him, smugly of course, and save the bandwidth. So here goes...

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol:

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Marco.

Nick
18-04-2008, 15:50
Well i've heard them and they're crap compared to my laptop.


Marco, valve pre-amp + valve amp + tt = valve record player, innit ?


You've heard them huh ?

When no models are mentioned, how can you be sure ?

Oh and poppycock on the laptop comment. My experience echoes Mr C, server based system - nice try but no cigar.

The other thing I would mention is that as soon as you guys are offered a chance to put your money where your mouth is you cry off with lame excuses. So if you're so confident in your positions step up to the plate.

jcbrum
18-04-2008, 16:10
My local dealer used to sell Denon, and a business colleague has one.

All £12k cdp's need to have a "special" sound as a usp, consequently they are all inaccurate, and only made in very small numbers by firms who have weird ideas about electronics and sound.

Anyway the idea of anyone actually wanting to use a cdp to "play" cd's is ridiculous.

ROFLMAO

CD's are just a bit of plastic used to transport the digital file from the shop to your home. These days we use the internet to do that.

snapper
18-04-2008, 16:14
jcbrum

Are you a Jehovah Witness?

If not you should become one.