Is this for real??? [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

Alex D

14-04-2008, 13:10

Hi everybody, I came across this the other day and as my technical and engineering knowledge is nearer to a chimp (no offense intended to any other chimps lurking in this forum...) than a nuclear physicist, I'd like that those with a better grasp of technicalities could comment on it...

http://www.planotspeaker.com/

Cheers!
Alex

anthonyTD

14-04-2008, 18:07

jandl100

15-04-2008, 07:10

Well, well ... this is an interesting new thing. It's not often that you see genuine innovation in hifi design these days ..... assuming the website wasn't set up on 1st April ;).

I too have the engineering expertise of a chimp, this accompanied by quite a few decades of learning from hifi as a hobby .... but as a basic principle this does look at the very least interesting to me.

I must admit that I haven't quite sussed out why or how it pivots around the vertical axis .... :scratch:

Also ... without a baffle of any sort to separate the 3 drivers, won't they interfere with each other and cancel out/interfere? :scratch: There will be a rear wave as seen by each driver (from the other 2 drivers), although the phasing will be dependent on the particular design implementation (i.e. the phase of each 'side' of the radiating triangle). This is why planar drivers have a figure-8 radiation pattern - destructive interference at the sides - the wider the baffle the higher frequency diaphragms are mounted on, the lower the drivers can go without the backward radiation affecting that from the opposite side. And without a baffle at all, won't this be a bit of a problem ... ? :scratch:

.... or perhaps I'm just talking utter rubbish. :)

Alex D

15-04-2008, 13:13

.... or perhaps I'm just talking utter rubbish. :)

Oooo ooo ooo oo o ooo ooo! (Translated from chimptalk: I wouldn't know I'm more of a chimp than you!)

Leaving the joke to rest (hopefully for good?) I must say that it does seem strange that the inventor claims there is no cancellation.
I hope it's for real because it seems like great idea (if it's real) and if mass produced could bring the high end to a lot more fellas (although you can count in there being esoteric boutique versions of the same technology...), myself included...

Planot

18-04-2008, 19:43

I am the inventor of the Planot(TM) speaker and I would be willing to answer any questions that you might have about the Planot. I will check back from time to time.

Thanks,
John

anthonyTD

18-04-2008, 20:16

I am the inventor of the Planot(TM) speaker and I would be willing to answer any questions that you might have about the Planot. I will check back from time to time.

Thanks,
John
hi john,
very interesting, i have read partly what has been written about its design, but can you elaborate a bit further on its key design, and what inspired you..
regards,anthony,TD...:):):)

Marco

18-04-2008, 20:20

Thanks for joining, John. We'll look forward to your input in due course :)

Can I ask where you heard about us?

Regards,
Marco.

Planot

23-04-2008, 01:19

Thanks for joining, John. We'll look forward to your input in due course :)

Can I ask where you heard about us?

Regards,
Marco.

This thread showed up as a "referring sites" in my Google Analytics.

John

Planot

23-04-2008, 02:01

hi john,
very interesting, i have read partly what has been written about its design, but can you elaborate a bit further on its key design, and what inspired you..
regards,anthony,TD...:):):)

I was inspired to uncover the weakness in the design of the traditional acoustic transducer (driver). I decided that the one thing that made the driver's operation possible was the weakest part of its design. The surround and spider system. It performed three contrary functions. First it held the voice coil centered in the magnetic gap and next it returned the voice coil and cone assembly to the "rest position" and lastly it provided an acoustic seal at the perimeter of the cone.

How do you eliminate that one thing performs these three necessary functions?

Well, first if you are not worried about making a working device then you are free to let your imagination dictate a solution instead of function dictate it. This is the first step in what I call sphereorizing.

If you want an object to move a certain distance and yet move "only" in the intended path then one method is to have the object turn on bearings. In this way its movement is limited to a specific path and can't "wobble." I had that solution to that specific problem. Next I was able to think about how this new object would function as driver. I setup a hierarchy of functions that had to be satisfied next. I went one by one down the line from the bearings to the polar response to the motor. Then I realized that I did not need the acoustic seal! I had eliminated the need for an enclosure.

When implemented in the particular way I did, the bearings eliminated several problems that were inherent in the traditional Alexander Bell "ear morphology" paradigm. This new design allows me to separate the function of centering the voice coil, which is now perfectly centered as in no other design, and the homing function. Now these two functions are optimized separately. Other advantages are smooth frequency response, perfect phase response, omni-directional polar response in the horizontal plane and incredible imaging and low distortion.

But it was not the bearings or the elongated shape of the diaphragm or the pivoting so much as the three dimensional nature of the diaphragm in combination with these other things. I call it the 3-D Diaphragm (tm). It is the special geometry of the diaphragm that makes its performance magical.

John

anthonyTD

23-04-2008, 09:23

I was inspired to uncover the weakness in the design of the traditional acoustic transducer (driver). I decided that the one thing that made the driver's operation possible was the weakest part of its design. The surround and spider system. It performed three contrary functions. First it held the voice coil centered in the magnetic gap and next it returned the voice coil and cone assembly to the "rest position" and lastly it provided an acoustic seal at the perimeter of the cone.

How do you eliminate that one thing performs these three necessary functions?

Well, first if you are not worried about making a working device then you are free to let your imagination dictate a solution instead of function dictate it. This is the first step in what I call sphereorizing.

If you want an object to move a certain distance and yet move "only" in the intended path then one method is to have the object turn on bearings. In this way its movement is limited to a specific path and can't "wobble." I had that solution to that specific problem. Next I was able to think about how this new object would function as driver. I setup a hierarchy of functions that had to be satisfied next. I went one by one down the line from the bearings to the polar response to the motor. Then I realized that I did not need the acoustic seal! I had eliminated the need for an enclosure.

When implemented in the particular way I did, the bearings eliminated several problems that were inherent in the traditional Alexander Bell "ear morphology" paradigm. This new design allows me to separate the function of centering the voice coil, which is now perfectly centered as in no other design, and the homing function. Now these two functions are optimized separately. Other advantages are smooth frequency response, perfect phase response, omni-directional polar response in the horizontal plane and incredible imaging and low distortion.

But it was not the bearings or the elongated shape of the diaphragm or the pivoting so much as the three dimensional nature of the diaphragm in combination with these other things. I call it the 3-D Diaphragm (tm). It is the special geometry of the diaphragm that makes its performance magical.

John

hi john,
i, as i suspect others on this forum would like to explore this exciting technolgy further, would it be posible to have a listen at some point...
anthony.:)
PS, you have a message...;)

Filterlab

23-04-2008, 09:30

hi john,
i, as i suspect others on this forum would like to explore this exciting technolgy further, would it be posible to have a listen at some point...
anthony. :)

Exactly what I was just going to post up, these are very interesting indeed.

anthonyTD

23-04-2008, 09:35

Exactly what I was just going to post up, these are very interesting indeed.
hi rob,
like minded people and all that.... this is what real forums are all about.;)

Filterlab

23-04-2008, 11:17

You know it mate.

I'm always interested in speaker technology, that's what drew me towards MartinLogans a few years back - they amazed some non-audiophile friends, comments like "where does the sound come from then" and "how is it possible to see through them" etc etc. ;)

Marco

23-04-2008, 11:24

I also like it that people from the States are finding us through Google search engines :)

How about an A.O.S boys weekend to Nebraska to check out those babies of John's?

:gig:

Marco.

Filterlab

23-04-2008, 11:28

Not really keen on children.

Marco

23-04-2008, 11:35

Hehe... You get my meaning!

A boys trip to the States would be a riot :eyebrows:

Marco.

Filterlab

23-04-2008, 12:02

Those speakers are certainly interesting, especially looking at that image of the prototype. I'm getting an idea that they could be like electrostats in presentation but I may be wrong.

anthonyTD

23-04-2008, 12:46

Hehe... You get my meaning!

A boys trip to the States would be a riot :eyebrows:

Marco.

re-phrase that,
"there would be a riot" if we went with you know who....
:eyebrows::confused::lol:

anthonyTD

23-04-2008, 12:49

Those speakers are certainly interesting, especially looking at that image of the prototype. I'm getting an idea that they could be like electrostats in presentation but I may be wrong.

i hope john will elaborate a bit further, and maybe show some close ups,obviously without giving too much of the design away, for obvious reasons to john.;)

SolidState

23-04-2008, 13:41

Out of interest, what is the efficiency of these speakers?

Filterlab

23-04-2008, 13:49

No idea, they're still a work in progress so no figures are available yet. Wouldn't think they'll be too tricky to drive though.

anthonyTD

23-04-2008, 13:50

Out of interest, what is the efficiency of these speakers?

good question,
i have already asked john in an email how is their impedence with frequency, ie, any nasty dipps or peaks in the audio band,still waiting for a reply at the moment.
hopefully he will answer on here later.
;)

Planot

24-04-2008, 13:37

good question,
i have already asked john in an email how is their impedence with frequency, ie, any nasty dipps or peaks in the audio band,still waiting for a reply at the moment.
hopefully he will answer on here later.
;)

I have not attempted to measure that parameter with the current prototype.

The frequency response is actually very smooth and extended. I don't plan on releasing measurements of this prototype. I will be releasing measurements on the next, P4.
-----
Sure, I can accommodate three listeners. My wife likes to ask, "John are you having more people over tonight to worship your speaker?"

Just check with me before you come over.

John

Filterlab

24-04-2008, 13:50

My curiosity grows with each post. :)

Alex D

24-04-2008, 14:16

Ditto!

The Grand Wazoo

17-05-2010, 21:10

So, I wonder whether now, 2 years on, John (Mr Planot) ever developed his interesting design further, or got the funding that he was seeking?
It would be interesting to hear more..........

Planot

18-05-2010, 02:19

Thank you for asking. I am currently processing my First Office Action from the US Patent and Trade Mark Office. It has been almost 3 years since I filed my patent. I have cleared all objections and I expect to have the patent in 3 to 6 months.

I am working on prototype 4, P4, still. I have had many problems with suppliers. Time after time they promise to deliver goods built to my specifications and then they do not deliver. That costs me a great deal of time.

I am currently, after a year, attempting to get 3 bids for manufacturing custom voice coils. So far I have one bid.

I have a new motor issue I am working on and should have the new parts soon.

Again it is connecting with the right consultants and suppliers.

I have not wanted to invest too much of limited resources until I have the patent. I hope you will understand that.

The imaging just keeps getting better and better. If I had the resources I could have a marketable prototype in three months or less.

I did have a manufacture come to Omaha in October of 2009 and perform 3 days of measurements. We were in agreement that I need a more sophisticated motor to get the performance that I want.

I can upload a room measurement I took after he left town and I had tweaked the motor. A simple adjustment made a huge improvement in performance. I have since acquired much more sophisticated measuring tools and when I get P4 running satisfactorily I will be posting more information on my Web site. I hope to have a redesigned Web site up in the next 3 months.

I would be glad to answer questions that I can give answers to. I can't discuss any business details or details of the patent proceedings.

John

The Grand Wazoo

18-05-2010, 06:30

Thank you very much for getting back to us!
I'd expect the forum management who require you to have a Trade Account so maybe someone can sort that out for you soon. (I think I'm right in saying it doesn't cost anything but it's required as a means of 'declaring an interest').

I'm sure there will be some interest in this & I know I have some questions, but I think I need to re-read your website first.
I'll get back to you!

Peter Galbavy

18-05-2010, 07:51

Just came across this recently rewoken thread. Good luck to John, it's truly good to see the spirit of invention and innovation still alive out there. Just hang on to the majority stake, whatever happens. Be wary of option clauses but don't be too paranoid! :)

Spectral Morn

18-05-2010, 08:23

All very interesting and great that John is still around. I had thought reading this thread that there might be a lack of reply, but no, John replies asap.

Having just looked at the website in full I can't imagine how these will sound though not having a traditional box will reduce/kill colourations and lead to a faster more open and detailed sound, with excellent imaging, such as the Gallos I use. Though these speakers will sound nothing like Gallos I think ?

I wish you all the best with your speakers, pity I don't live in the USA I would love to get a listen to these; even do a review for www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com some time....oh well :(

One of the admin can change John's account to a trade one.

Regards D S D L

Marco

18-05-2010, 09:16

Thank you very much for getting back to us!
I'd expect the forum management who require you to have a Trade Account so maybe someone can sort that out for you soon. (I think I'm right in saying it doesn't cost anything but it's required as a means of 'declaring an interest').

Now sorted - and yes you're right, it's free! :)

John, do you have a website? If so, we can link to it in our Creative Collections section.

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

18-05-2010, 17:19

John's site was referenced in the original post Marco:

http://www.planotspeaker.com/

Marco

18-05-2010, 17:25

Ah, right... Cheers, Chris - I missed that. I'll get a link sorted out for him in Creative Collections :)

Marco.

Planot

19-05-2010, 01:50

anthonyTD

19-05-2010, 08:44

Here is a room measurement. Click to enlarge. This was a measure of an earlier version of P4.
This is just a shadow of how it will perform. Remember this is still an early prototype.

1848

Here is an article I think you will all be interested in. These researchers do not have a connection to me.
I have corresponded with Mr. Earl Geddes and discussed his research on perception of distortion.
After you read about his research I believe you'll see that my invention is the embodiment of his findings.

http://www.gedlee.com/distortion_perception.htm

John

hi john,
going by the graph data supplied
thats pretty good already so i imagine the finnished design will be exceptional, i for one cant wait for these to come into production, the reaction of the competion will be priceless!
good luck with it!
regards,anthony,TD...

Marco

20-05-2010, 15:33

Link for Planot now done: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1265

:)

Marco.

Planot

14-06-2011, 16:03

Planot(R) speaker update...
The US Patent and Trademark Office awarded me a patent for my diaphragm design in December of 2010. # 7860265

I have been talking with many manufacturers but I can not yet announce a product on the market. The May issue of Voice Coil Magazine featured the Planot speaker in a cover article. That article resulted in more manufacturer contacts. *Voice Coil editor Vance Dickson has agreed to review a prototype when I have one ready to ship.

A press release in 6moons.com has boosted monthly traffic on my Web site by thousands of visits. 6moons's , Srajam Ebaen, has agreed to review a Planot prototype, as soon as I have review units available. I have posted Google Analytics traffic data on my site.

People have been requesting I publish measurements for some time. I have now published frequency and phase measurements on my Web site.*

Again, if you are interested in speakers utilizing Planot technology contact manufacturers and tell them, you encourage them to investigate licensing Planot technology.

I am working with companies to produce a supply of voice coils and magnets and I will be making new motors based on a proprietary design. The motor contributes a significant amount to response and efficiency.

Thanks for your interest,
John J. Gaudreault

http://www.planotspeaker.com*

info@planotspeaker.com