View Full Version : A visit to Marco's
Firebottle
30-01-2016, 10:15
A much anticipated visit to get an ear around how the Head Daftee's system sounds. A great sesh indeed.
Everybody should have some idea or they haven't been paying enough attention, punishment is available :whippin:
I found the place easily enough, straight up the A41, and was very pleased to also meet Darren :)
Marco's den is fairly compact but ideal as a man cave for music storage and listening. The Lockwoods are the first thing you notice, you'd have to be blind not to, but you certainly feel them when the music is on, more of that later.
They struck me visually as very 'purposeful', personally I prefer the look to the more traditional side vented corner cabinet look of other models, but of course that is just personal preference.
I'd come equipped with a Firebottle KIN preamp and AIR power amp, specifically to contrast and compare the relative performance, but always with an open mind to try and understand what possible technical merits or otherwise there are with different design approaches.
That's me with my designers hat on as I like to try and understand why a particular tweak makes the difference it does.
We started with the few CD's I had brought up with me, one of them being Sade - Soldier of Love.
The overall impression is sheer scale, have to agree with Marco here, quite enthralling. I knew there were good bass lines on the Sade CD but coupled into two 15 inchers and the depth was astonishing, no boom, no flab, just bass that you could feel and appreciate :D
OK I was thinking can I create a diversion and get these Lockies into the back of the car :eyebrows:
A few CD's were played and I saw that Marco now has remote control fitted to his stepped attenuator in the Croft pre. Even though the top was off it was on rather a high shelf on the rack so I couldn't get a good look around the internals :doh:
The AIR power amp was the first substitution in the system and very well it performed. When the Copper Amp was re-installed at the end of the session the overall impression was that there was a slight extra 'warmth' in the sound with the copper amp, but a bit more 'air' with the AIR (good choice of name according to Darren).
My technical guess on the difference was the speaker response/output valve loading via the output transformer, but in no way was there any fault or error in presentation with either, plus we are talking very small differences, as we found with all the subsequent substitutions.
Darren took a few photos so none of the 'this thread is worthless without.....' as they will be posted in due course.
This visit was also my first listen to an Rpi streaming setup, exceedingly good considering the outlay involved. Compared to the CD and vinyl I thought there was a couple of percent less (that's all), oh I don't know... something, from the overall presentation. Maybe the scale or the fluidity of the music, but still bl**dy good.
The KIN preamp was substituted, driving the AIR, first with line in sources then various configurations from the vinyl set-up.
First off Marco's Mechie (modified Techie)/Paul Hynes head amp/Croft Charisma preamp is one of the best vinyl sounds I have heard. I was more than pleased that the KIN stood up to the comparison, even equalled it.
Playing with the combinations was very informative, particularly the direct MC input or head amp/SUT approach. I particularly wanted to hear how a quality MC performed directly into the KIN.
The KIN uses a cascode circuit for the MC input so negates the need for a head amp (HA) or SUT.
However Marco's experience has been that the direct input lacks a smidgen of 'drive' to the signal, whatever the preamp, when compared to the HA/SUT plus MM input approach. It was compared to the extra 'drive' that is felt when using an idler drive TT rather than direct drive or belt.
I could concur with that feeling and of course that has got me wondering what could be done to counteract this. My theory at the moment is that the difference is probably down to the input valve being driven via its cathode in the cascode circuit as opposed to the grid in a standard MM circuit. Anyone have any ideas on this or experience with experimentation?
Overall a very enjoyable day, excellent company and great to share thoughts and experiences.
PS You've got a wonderful bathroom Marco.
Sounds like an excellent result and a good day out was had Alan.
It will be interesting to hear from the others and see the pictures that were taken.
brian2957
30-01-2016, 15:43
Aye , we like the piccies here :eyebrows:
Firebottle
30-01-2016, 16:01
You've made 4000 Brian, congrats :champagne:
By the way which one of the 3 in your avatar is you :scratch:
brian2957
30-01-2016, 16:07
I'm definitely the middle one :D , I'll let the other two decide which one they are . I have my thoughts though :D
Good god :eek: 4000 posts of nonsensical rubbish :carrot: Thanks for pointing it out to me Alan.
Note to myself - Must try harder to make sense :lol:
The Black Adder
30-01-2016, 16:15
Hi Alan.
That's great, glad you finally got to hear the copper too. If you are still interested in coming over you are most welcome, just need to get the time slots free.
Great write up.
Jo
Sounds like you guys had a good session. Nice to hear your perspective on Marcos system Alan.
Which cartridge was Marco using on the techy?
Firebottle
30-01-2016, 17:12
The 103 James, certainly sounded good. Didn't have time for any cart comparisons unfortunately.
Jo yes I'm still keen if you can find a slot.
Ok, thanks to Alan for his nice write-up. It was great meeting you again yesterday. Before that, as you know, we'd only met briefly at last year's Cranage Hall show in Cheshire, but just a fleeting 'hello' in one of the corridors, so this time it was good to have a proper chat and listen to some choons in a more relaxed environment :)
Glad you enjoyed the system, mate, and me big ol' wardrobes. Their musical presentation (and voicing) is certainly quite different from modern speakers, which I think you got a good handle on! ;)
The RPi's had a few tweaks done to it (notably some Z-foil resistor upgrades), and of course, the addition of the Paul Hynes SR3DR linear PSU, the combination of which raises the performance of the RPi considerably, whilst in total still not costing ridiculous money (approx £400), and as you heard, quite amazingly competing favourably with a £4k CDP/DAC and £5k turntable... :eek:
Yes, both of the latter still offer that 'something' extra, in terms of musical polish and finesse, but it's still incredible the performance that little RPi is capable of, and I'm thoroughly delighted with it, especially with having access now to 8TB worth of music on the partnering hard-drives...!
To answer Jim's question, the cartridge used yesterday on the Techy was the stock (early 90s vintage) DL-103, housed in a newly purchased AT-Ti15ANV Titanium headshell. Unfortunately, there wasn't time to demonstrate any of my other cartridges, as the day just flew by (as usually tends to happen at these events), and besides, I wanted to show just how good a stock DL-103 can sound when everything is going in its favour, as it were, especially for Darren's benefit, as he's in the market for one himself.
I was very impressed indeed with the equipment Alan brought with him, namely his AIR valve (hybrid) power amp and KIN preamp/valve phono stage. I'll leave Alan to outline the technical details of both designs, including the respective topologies and valves employed, power output of the amp, etc, which will probably be useful for any potential customers reading.
However, the AIR (£500-worth, I believe, of hand-built loveliness), was inserted into the system first and initially partnered with my modified Croft Charisma-X preamp, in place of my usual Tube Distinctions, KT-120 based Copper amp, and it impressed immediately from the off, producing a beautifully lucid and wide-open sound, majoring on both musical analysis and sonic prowess, such that one didn't at all feel that the system had notably been 'downgraded', after the removal of the Copper amp, which costs TEN times the amount of the AIR!!
There were of course subtle differences between both amps (as generally always happens in these situations), but certainly nothing that made either amp sound 'broken'. I always find that's the case when comparing two pieces of equipment which have been built by knowledgeable and talented audio designers, and so whilst there were some, what one could call 'hi-fi differences' between the two amps, both designs majored on that elusive 'musicality': the ability to portray recorded music faithfully, with no obvious coloration or euphony, but without 'drawing attention' to itself, by seemingly engaging the listener in a form of falsely impressive 'audio pyrotechnics'.
Experience of using valve equipment has taught me that, in general, amplifiers employing the use of the larger variety of valves, such as big pentodes, like KT-120s, or triodes, such as 300Bs, have a 'bigger', more powerful and expansive sound, than their smaller counterparts, which are pretty much anything you can think of really, and this again was the case when comparing the AIR with the Copper amp, which conveyed the former qualities with aplomb, showing the AIR to come across as a little 'small' in comparison, in all areas of the frequency range, but only at this rather elevated level.
However, there were areas in the musical performance of the AIR, most likely due to its hybrid design, which appeared as a little cleaner and marginally less 'lush' than with the all-valve design of the Copper amp. 'Lush' is probably the wrong word here, as that suggests a form of cloying warmth/euphony, which in reality is far removed from how the Copper amp sounds, but certainly listeners who prefer a slightly (and we are talking slight here) 'cleaner' and tighter sound, might prefer what the AIR does in that respect, and also the impressive clarity and sense of 'air' (no pun intended) it portrays through the midrange, although it wasn't quite as spacious and seductive sounding as the Copper amp in that area.
There were other subtle differences, but none really significant enough to mention. The key point which really needs to be remembered here is the HUGE difference in cost, and
so I believe that Alan has succeeded in creating something quite remarkable with the AIR. Therefore, prospective buyers, looking for a superb sounding power amp, which punches, WAY, WAY, above its price point, should be forming a queue to his door! Well done, mate, on building such a superb design :clap:
The KIN preamp, with built-in MM/MC phono stage (at I believe around £1800) was equally as impressive as the AIR power amp. Up until that point, we unfortunately hadn't managed to play any vinyl, but amongst other music selected, we'd been listening to a superb jazz album, on CD and through the RPi, from Duke Ellington, called 'Blues in Orbit': an album originally released in 1959, which is a veritable classic of its genre, so by now we were all familiar with how this album sounded. Luckily, I also had it on vinyl (a brand new audiophile re-issue on the Columbia label), bought precisely for such comparisons, so that's what we used to showcase the Techy.
It's always interesting comparing the same music/recordings on different formats, digital or analogue, and as good as the digital versions we'd been listening to previously sounded (on the RPi and Sony CDP/DAC), I thought (and I suspect that Alan and Darren would agree), the vinyl version was a notch up again in quality, simply making the overall musical performance more believable and 'cohesive', as well as portraying the various brass instruments played in a more realistic and lifelike manner, subsequently allowing, for example, the near-natural 'bite' and dynamic attack of saxophone, trumpet and trombone, full reign, in a way that had eluded both the CD and streaming versions, sounding a little more lacklustre in comparison - all of which the KIN ably revealed with aplomb!
Make no mistake: this is an exceptionally musically talented valve phono stage, capable of oodles of insight, and with the ability to 'delve' into recordings and reveal information that would escape the vast majority of its competitors, and here think in the region of commercial products at £3k+, not the £1800 that Alan is asking... :exactly:
It was certainly capable of showcasing the unique and addictive musical qualities of the DL-103, in the way I've been accustomed to from the Croft, with vocals possessing a lovely 'creamy', liquid quality, but never straying towards the syrupy excesses one hears with some other valve designs, whilst enveloping the music in a wonderfully expansive soundstage, with impressive 'shimmer' and sparkle at the top-end, combining to give voices in particular sonorous depth and palpable realism. I could've happily enjoyed listening to music all day on the KIN, and I can pay it no higher compliment than that.
When we moved from using the MC-stage direct, and instead to the MM, via the Paul Hynes head amp, which itself costs almost as much as the KIN, there was undoubtedly a further improvement in SQ, injecting a purposefulness and 'drive', together with a soupçon of joie-de-vivre, musically, which the MC stage alone couldn't quite muster, but this was only obvious because the MM stage of the KIN possessed the required transparency to showcase the difference.
In that respect, I have to say that the combination of the KIN/Paul Hynes head amp went onto produce some wonderful sounds, only later being very slightly eclipsed by the introduction of the highly-modified Croft, which at considerably more cost than the KIN, opened things up a little more, in terms of overall insight and clarity, and by adding a bit more depth and subtlety to the musical presentation.
In short, how did the £1800 KIN compare with the £4K modified Croft/Paul Hynes combo? The answer fundamentally is very well indeed, and only lost out to the latter, as defined above, in the kinds of areas where that (expensive) few extra percent in audio performance is delivered by the top equipment, especially given that I've spent about the last 5 years slowing improving and refining the Croft, with all manner of internal upgrades, into what it is today. I've put it up against £10k+ commercial designs, where it's held its own, so the KIN is doing quite incredibly well to live with that sort of company.
As such, I would thoroughly recommend the KIN to anyone with the necessary funds, who wants to hear what a top-notch valve phono stage is capable of (also what their records really sound like), and one indeed that rather uniquely comes with both MM and MC inputs, all neatly wired internally, point to point, with quality components used throughout. Quite frankly, it's a no-brainer, and I can think of few better ways of spending £1800 on a phono stage, valve or SS. A bargain? Yup. Does it offer high SPPV? Yup, and then some...!
Therefore, I would like to congratulate Alan on designing and building two exceptional audio products, and ones which, given the support that they deserve, I'm sure will in time go onto become 'AoS classics'. You're a credit to our community, mate, and I wish you every success for the future :cool:
We now await Darren adding his thoughts, and providing the few pics we took!
Marco.
Great write up Marco, and a very generous appraisal of Alans equipment, both of which I have heard here put up against the Croft Micro 25R+ and the 7 so I know what they can do.
Alan is a very talented designer and I wrote a review of the KIN but not quite in its finished form - a truly great preamp with the added finest of superb phono stage.
I only heard the AIR briefly but even in its early incarnation it was excellent with great soundstage and indeed 'AIR'!
Good job you didn't have the DL-S1 on the techy, Alan would have the hair standing on his head!:lol:
Some pics... KIN phonotage underneath AIR power amp:
http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u606/drtwas/IMG_5882_zpspqczda7v.jpg (http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/drtwas/media/IMG_5882_zpspqczda7v.jpg.html)
Denon DL-103 in AT titanium headshell, also with Mpingo wood spacer:
http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u606/drtwas/IMG_5879_zpsdfc2ail9.jpg (http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/drtwas/media/IMG_5879_zpsdfc2ail9.jpg.html)
And again, a little more clearly:
http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u606/drtwas/IMG_5877_zpsjwnwiepa.jpg (http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/drtwas/media/IMG_5877_zpsjwnwiepa.jpg.html)
AIR power amp on its own, with Raspberry Pi in the background, and Copper amp just about visible underneath:
http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u606/drtwas/IMG_5874_zpsvk0rapuk.jpg (http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/drtwas/media/IMG_5874_zpsvk0rapuk.jpg.html)
:cool:
Marco.
Great write up Marco, and a very generous appraisal of Alans equipment, both of which I have heard here put up against the Croft Micro 25R+ and the 7 so I know what they can do.
Alan is a very talented designer and I wrote a review of the KIN but not quite in its finished form - a truly great preamp with the added finest of superb phono stage.
I only heard the AIR briefly but even in its early incarnation it was excellent with great soundstage and indeed 'AIR'!
Good job you didn't have the DL-S1 on the techy, Alan would have the hair standing on his head!:lol:
Lol - cheers, mate. Just tried to describe things as best as I could. Yes, the DL-S1 or DL-103C1, fitted to the same headshell, would've been even better :)
Marco.
My theory at the moment is that the difference is probably down to the input valve being driven via its cathode in the cascode circuit as opposed to the grid in a standard MM circuit. Anyone have any ideas on this or experience with experimentation?
I would remind you of the phrase "all a valve knows are the voltages and currents on its pins". As to if the signal is on the grid or the cathode, it all depends where you are standing, all the valve knows is the voltage between the grid and cathode changes. Either the grid waves up and down, or the cathode waves down and up.
Firebottle
30-01-2016, 21:15
Thanks Nick, I'll put that thought to bed then :thumbsup:
Hi Nick,
Glad you've jumped in here... Any theories/ideas as to why, certainly in my experience so far, providing that an MC head amp or SUT is of suitable quality, and optimally matches the partnering MC cartridge, sonically and electrically, the signal always seems to sound better amplified that way, than directly via an MC input, no matter whether the phono stage in question is valve or SS? :)
To my ears, the sound always has a certain 'magic' with a quality head amp or SUT 'at the helm', as it were, which otherwise is lacking... I also note that many expensive/specialist commercial phono stages feature built-in and adjustable SUTs, so I guess that there must be something in it.
Marco.
Well, I do have a theory. Not everyone will agree, but thats not my problem :-).
Phono stages are very hard things to make well, Making a good MM phono stage on its own is a hard thing to do well, but if thats the goal, thats the bit thats done well. Making a step up transformer is also hard if done well, and so is making a head amp. Stages that combine the head amp and the mm stage, tend not to have twice the work going into them, so there are more compromises. The jfet front end idea is a good way of combining valve with MC levels of noise, but its not perfect. I make them myself, but after two years of work making a MM input stage, I can hear the jfet in a jfet input. Its almost inaudible, but its still there and you can tell if you get everything else right. SS Head amps have more to them than a simple jfet, so they can often do a better job, and being standalone, the designer is more focused. SS only is so much simpler, so simple the designer generally doesnt work hard enough, and that suffers again from that. Its just about possible to get a pentode front end quiet enough for a cartridge like a 103, using that its possible to hear what both the head amps and step ups are getting wrong. With good ones its very slight, but you can tell when its not there. Lots of other parts of a phono matter just as much as the front end, but thats another rant or two.
Then again, some folk have their own preferences in the sound, that may mean that one or the other approach is a better match for their ears and or system. Thats all good as well.
Firebottle
30-01-2016, 21:48
I really enjoyed your system Marco, I didn't say on the day but when we moved to vinyl I got the same feeling that I always do. With any system of reasonable quality vinyl always gives that better 'organic' feel and yours was no exception.
The brilliant thing is with such a sorted system that you know so well is that you can recognise and pinpoint the variations with different kit and I thank you for that.
I guess the spaciousness of the mid range on the copper amp in comparison is down to the copper being class A. Of course the benefit of going down the hybrid route is not requiring the expense of the quality iron needed in an all valve power amp.
I didn't quite realise your spend on the Rpi so that explains why it was so close behind the others sources :)
As an aside I shall be bringing out a phono only pre, you both saw the chosen enclosure for the Vivant.
:cool:
Thanks for that insight, Nick, and explaining it a way that a 'layman' can just about understand! :)
I agree essentially with what you're saying, and in some ways is best summed up as: 'choose your trade-offs/compromises carefully', because in audio, there is rarely a 'free lunch'. However, I like how you've looked at it here:
Stages that combine the head amp and the mm stage, tend not to have twice the work going into them, so there are more compromises <Snip>
SS Head amps have more to them than a simple jfet, so they can often do a better job, and being standalone, the designer is more focused. SS only is so much simpler, so simple the designer generally doesnt work hard enough, and that suffers again from that.
Hadn't thought of it like that before, in terms of how "focussed" the designer is or isn't, when his or her attention is also being diverted towards other areas of a product. I definitely do think that's relevant.
Then again, some folk have their own preferences in the sound, that may mean that one or the other approach is a better match for their ears and or system. Thats all good as well.
Yup, as indeed is the case when, simply through not much more than luck (or perhaps educated judgement), one hits upon a symbiotic combination of SUT/head amp and cartridge, where for no particular technical reason, sonic and musical synergy is achieved.
It can be a funny, and rather unpredictable game sometimes, this hi-fi malarkey! ;)
Marco.
Firebottle
30-01-2016, 21:55
Excellent post Nick and I definitely agree.
:)
Oh, just one further thought, Nick...
Would you consider that there's any mileage in the notion that because, with say, a quality head amp in the equation, being supplied from its own dedicated linear PSU (as is the case with my Paul Hynes), that this reduces noise in the signal path, or that the integrity of the signal is somehow else better preserved, than when going through a standalone MC stage, where the whole circuit shares the same PSU?
Almost like you're regulating the circuit better, with the signal amplification stage (head amp) having its own dedicated power supply? Experience tells me that individually regulating different parts of a circuit like that can have a significant influence on the performance of any piece of audio equipment.
Or am I talking bollocks? :D
Marco.
Hi Alan,
I really enjoyed your system Marco, I didn't say on the day but when we moved to vinyl I got the same feeling that I always do. With any system of reasonable quality vinyl always gives that better 'organic' feel and yours was no exception.
Cheers, I kind of got that feeling from your reaction (and Darren's) as soon as we started spinning vinyl. However, it's nice having access to three different sources, all of which I can enjoy listening to music on with similar standards of sound quality :)
The brilliant thing is with such a sorted system that you know so well is that you can recognise and pinpoint the variations with different kit and I thank you for that.
Yeah, I know where you're coming from. The system has essentially stayed the same now for about 5 years, with mainly just some tinkering to the 'infrastructure', so yes I know it intimately well (strengths and weaknesses), which thus makes it reasonably easy to identify differences whenever 'alien' components are used.
I guess the spaciousness of the mid range on the copper amp in comparison is down to the copper being class A. Of course the benefit of going down the hybrid route is not requiring the expense of the quality iron needed in an all valve power amp.
Yup, I do agree. The quality of the iron is where the bulk of the cost comes from on a 'conventional' valve amp, so much so that you can virtually tell how good its going to be from just lifting it up! The Copper amp features very large mains and output transformers, hand-wound by an ex-engineer for GEC.
I also think that the 'sonic signature' of valve amplifiers is largely governed by the designer's choice of output tubes, and of course how well or otherwise the circuit employed gets the most out of them. At this point, it may be a good idea to remind folks of which valves your AIR and KIN unit use, and some other technical specs for both items, such as the power output of the amp, etc.
I didn't quite realise your spend on the Rpi so that explains why it was so close behind the others sources...
Yes the cost of the Paul Hynes linear PSU bumps things up a bit, but still to no where near the cost of my CDP/DAC or turntable, so the RPi, even at £400, still represents extraordinary value for money!
Btw, looks like we'll be seeing each other again soon, as I'll also be going to Macca's place on Monday :cool:
I'd like to try and get the basics of his system sorted out, so that the wee daftee can start enjoying his music again. It's no fun at all when your system just isn't doing it for you. I've been there before, and it's a royal head-fuck.
Marco.
Thats just one area where "it will be good enough" can come and bite the combined solution.
One for Jez. In a typical jfet cascode, the triode on top of the jfet has its grid taken to a DC voltage level. Now that point may either be AC 0v, or a whole complex set of noise sources and inductances depending on how hard you want to look. One thing 15 years of phono stages has taught me is that IT ALL MATTERS.
Which post are you replying to there, Nick?
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
30-01-2016, 22:59
Thats just one area where "it will be good enough" can come and bite the combined solution.
One for Jez. In a typical jfet cascode, the triode on top of the jfet has its grid taken to a DC voltage level. Now that point may either be AC 0v, or a whole complex set of noise sources and inductances depending on how hard you want to look. One thing 15 years of phono stages has taught me is that IT ALL MATTERS.
It certainly does all matter! I find my 1nVrootHz balanced input low noise amplifier hugely useful in sussing out the lowest noise sources, when fed into a B & K rms mV meter which also feeds a channel on the scope. The 1500MHz spectrum analyser is a boon for tracing the spurious oscillations at 100's of MHz that can occur now and then and not be visible on a scope. All the above applies equally (at least!) in the design of regulated supplies to power it!
I can see what you mean about sometimes more resources will be spent on separate units, which usually cost much more combined and may result in better SQ due to separate power supply regulation .... however, other than this possibility in some cases, I don't think there is any reason why separate head amps/SUT with a MM stage should beat an all in one unit. I can though think of reasons why an all in one could/should beat the separate headamp/SUT into MM stage!
An all valve headamp, or front end in an MC phono stage, can sound fantastic and I have indeed done this. Whether it's any better than a jfet is another matter. I haven's had the chance to compare them and they can both sound incredibly good! The issue with using valves here is price and reliability. Only the VERY BEST valves can be used, several usually need to be used in parallel to get near the low noise of the jfet and lots need to be bought to select only the best (lowest noise) valves. The requirement for low noise is so stringent that one or more of the valves will usually "go off" a bit and start hissing or making rustling noises within a few months.... or days! I certainly haven't tried all the valves suitable for use in a headamp, some very high Gm types are available at huge cost which look very interesting in the role but whether or not they can kkep quiet for long enough is another issue... and the best of these type are truly silly money. Like £200 each :eek: Not good to find "nah this ones a bit hissy"!
I can though think of reasons why an all in one could/should beat the separate headamp/SUT into MM stage!
Yup, but as ever in this game, the final arbiter is your ears... ;)
Marco.
An all valve headamp, or front end in an MC phono stage, can sound fantastic and I have indeed done this. Whether it's any better than a jfet is another matter. I haven's had the chance to compare them and they can both sound incredibly good! The issue with using valves here is price and reliability. Only the VERY BEST valves can be used, several usually need to be used in parallel to get near the low noise of the jfet and lots need to be bought to select only the best (lowest noise) valves. The requirement for low noise is so stringent that one or more of the valves will usually "go off" a bit and start hissing or making rustling noises within a few months.... or days! I certainly haven't tried all the valves suitable for use in a headamp, some very high Gm types are available at huge cost which look very interesting in the role but whether or not they can kkep quiet for long enough is another issue... and the best of these type are truly silly money. Like £200 each :eek: Not good to find "nah this ones a bit hissy"!
Indeed, although I'm perfectly happy combining valves and SS, for vinyl replay (not being a valve 'fanboy'), with a view to getting 'the best of both worlds'...
That's why the Paul Hynes head amp I have uses FETs, going through the 6SL7 valves of the Croft MM stage, which incidentally are matched and balanced grey-glass, 1940s military-spec RCAs, and not only sound superb, but have provided trouble-free use now for nearly two years - and the Croft gets used for many hours listening every day! :)
These days, I exclusively only buy matched and balanced vintage NOS valves, from sellers with professional valve testers, who show pictures on their ads of the valves sold being tested, and the subsequent measurements taken.
Yes, that still doesn't give an absolute guarantee that they'll last, but it tends to sort the wheat out from the chaff, as it were, and I've not had many problems, compared with current production crappy Chinese and Russian valves, which tend to do all the things you say within months, sometimes weeks, or even days! :doh:
Another veritable example of: 'They don't make 'em like they use to'.......
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
30-01-2016, 23:44
Indeed, although I'm perfectly happy combining valves and SS, with vinyl replay (not being a valve 'fanboy'), with a view to 'getting the best of both worlds', which is why the Paul Hynes head amp I have uses FETs, going through the 6SL7 valves of the Croft MM stage, which incidentally are matched and balanced grey-glass, 1940s military-spec RCAs, and not only sound superb, but have provided trouble-free use now for nearly two years - and the Croft gets used for many hours listening every day! :)
These days, I exclusively only buy matched and balanced vintage NOS valves, from sellers with professional valve testers, who show pictures on their ads of the valves sold being tested, and the subsequent measurements taken.
Yes, that still doesn't give an absolute guarantee that they'll last, but it tends to sort the wheat out from the chaff, as it were, and I've not had many problems, compared with current production crappy Chinese and Russian valves, which tend to do all the things you say within months, sometimes weeks, or even days! :doh:
Another veritable example of: 'They don't make 'em like they use to'.......
Marco.
You are rather underestimating just HOW quiet the valves in a headamp need to be compared to those in an MM stage!;) Rather different characteristics are required in a valve suitable for a head amp also. Your 6SL7's whilst fine valves would probably drown out out all the quiet bits with hiss if used in a head amp :eek:
Yeah, I know. I wasn't referring to a head amp (never heard a valve head amp, only SS), but simply the valves used in the MM stage of the Croft :)
Like I said, I'm no blinkered 'valve fanboy'; I remain open-minded to the sonic possibilities of any good form of technology, and so tend only to use valves where I consider that they have the potential to produce the best results.
That's also why I'm not averse to using a passive preamp as a line stage, and/or listening to vinyl through that, with the Croft, via its tape outputs, which also sounds excellent.
I don't need to have valves everywhere in the replay chain; indeed it can be advantageous not to do so, which is why you'll likely never see me employing them on my digital sources (or using buffers, etc), as to my ears, they nearly always colour the sound to an unacceptable degree.
However, as ever, the resulting efficacy of applying valves, in such a way, will largely be governed by how judicious, and therefore successful, is their implementation within a given circuit.
Marco.
Firebottle
31-01-2016, 07:22
........... efficacy of applying valves..........., is their implementation within a given circuit..
Apart from the 'IT ALL MATTERS' being so true the circuit configuration is also crucial. The 'super linear' circuit I use enables the valve to act as an almost perfect amplifier, enabling top notch performance without needing to source rare and costly valves.
I do veer to using non mainstream types that are both plentiful and inexpensive, PCC85 in line level applications and PCC189 for phono amp duties.
Also using hybrid design definitely helps 'with a view to getting 'the best of both worlds'...'
Firebottle KIN details: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?41186-Firebottle-KIN-line-phono-amplifier
Firebottle AIR details: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?42381-Firebottle-AIR-hybrid-Power-Amplifier
:)
The Black Adder
31-01-2016, 08:43
+1 Nick.
I remember you bringing that MC phono stage you designed/made. I was using a SS one before and the difference was simply amazing.
Firebottle
31-01-2016, 08:57
Josie I have heard Nick's MC phono and had a mini bake off with my Firebottle 2. If anything the 2 edged it in the system being used.
The KIN phono is another level up :D
Firebottle
31-01-2016, 09:45
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1050299.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1050300.jpg
:carrot:
(Only the box so far, build same as KIN phono)
One for Jez. In a typical jfet cascode
My fault, I was actually meaning to say that to Alan.
Firebottle
31-01-2016, 12:40
Got you Nick. As you say with 'everything', had to ensure single point ground construction to be rid of the last vestiges of hum from the supply line.
:)
Arkless Electronics
31-01-2016, 13:41
My fault, I was actually meaning to say that to Alan.
You'd have got my ha'penny on it anyway ;)
Firebottle
31-01-2016, 14:06
What not your two penneth?
I'll put the other 1 and a half :rolleyes: So what's your take?
Arkless Electronics
31-01-2016, 14:09
Already commented....
I'll put a fiver on the winner! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
31-01-2016, 14:20
I'll put a fiver on the winner! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Meaning?
Meaning he's a gambling addict.
Yesh... But only if it involves a 'square go' in the playground :eyebrows:
Marco.
Nice write up and pics there guys.
Any chance of getting the AIR to the next NEBO?
Firebottle
31-01-2016, 14:54
Zoidberg has a loan unit at the moment so quite possible :eek:
Zoidburg
31-01-2016, 17:15
Zoidberg has a loan unit at the moment so quite possible :eek:
Due to post the air onwards early next week (just need to go back through the thread and check who it's on to next).
Sounded good even with my very modest pre amp and im sure it would have really sung given a something better suited to it.
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1050299.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1050300.jpg
:carrot:
(Only the box so far, build same as KIN phono)
Hi Alan,
It's funny you have added this to the 'range' I was going to pm you the other day to see if you would build a stage based on the KIN phono element and there it is lol. I must be psychic.
The MM/MC switching would be something I would want so that was one of the reasons I was going to enquire. Plus you mentioning that the KIN stage was a step up again from the Firebottle 2 which really piqued my interest.
I have two questions, cost and does it come with a silver fascia?
Mike.
Firebottle
31-01-2016, 18:52
Ah well this is all rather harmonious.
The target price is £1K. The case actually comes in all silver so I have had the front and back black anodised so I can have prominent engraving.
Will have to think of an alternative finish that still has the impact. I will enquire about flooded engraving, so it would be black lettering on silver.
:)
That would be good. ;)
It look like a quality case.
Ah well this is all rather harmonious.
The target price is £1K. The case actually comes in all silver so I have had the front and back black anodised so I can have prominent engraving.
Will have to think of an alternative finish that still has the impact. I will enquire about flooded engraving, so it would be black lettering on silver.
:)
Sounds promising, I'd be happy with plain silver with just the etching [emoji6]
I'll ask any other questions via pm save taking this thread off on a tangent
Mike.
I would prefer a plain black case, without the ostentatious and upwards inflective "Vivant" . :lol:
I thought you'd like one with the inscription 'Bon Vivant'....? :cheers:
;)
Marco.
Firebottle
31-01-2016, 22:15
.... without the ostentatious and upwards inflective "Vivant" . :lol:
Thanks Barry, you can't please all the people all of the time :(
I thought it needed something other than linear lettering, after all it's meant to give pleasure to your listening experience.
:)
I quite liked that actually, although perhaps slightly too big. Like the shape of the box too; nice and chunky
A quick and dirty "negative render" done on my phone.
https://flic.kr/p/DGNzHP
Does not appear to be working. Try this:
16104
Firebottle
01-02-2016, 09:04
I personally prefer the silver lettering on black.
I've just spoken with the engraver and can confirm I can offer Black lettering on silver front :thumbsup:
Can I ask for the Silver fascia and black rear panel or is that just too difficult?
Does it have to be one or the other for both?
DarrenHW
01-02-2016, 10:18
Friday was a very enjoyable afternoon it was a pleasure meeting Alan. It would have been great if we'd had more time as I'd really liked to have heard more of the phonostage in the Kin. As I'm not very good at this instead of attempting to compare Alan's pre and power amps to Marco's substituted equipment I'd rather refer back to my previous thoughts on an early FB (Jan 2015) and how I feel the phonostage in the Kin has evolved:
I’ve had the Fire Bottle Plus (FB) for about a month now and have enjoyed many hours listening to it over the Christmas holidays. I’m not at all qualified to offer any kind of review so will do my best to compare it to the Cambridge Audio 651P (CA) I’ve had for the last 12 months. Hopefully this will prove useful as I imagine there will be a few members on here who like me are looking to upgrade from their first Phono stage and this is where I think (price wise) the FB sits.
System configuration:
Garrard 401, bolted to a bit of chipboard, XTP401 Thrust Pad, Platter Dampening Rings, Reso Matt.
Rega RB300, AT440MLa.
Tubehunter 6N6P Pre Amp.
Audiolab 8200x7.
Celestion Ditton 44.
Klotz MC5000 / MS Audio Starline throughout.
The B52’s – The B52’s.
13755
Instantly evident is the holographic presentation of the FB, music really projects out of the speakers and from the off I find this far more involving than the CA. The decay from the FB is head and shoulders above the CA and it sounds so much more organic. Surface noise is more pronounced than the CA, I don’t know whether this is a good thing or not, but maybe a consideration if you have a lot of far from mint second hand vinyl. Really the only plus point for the CA is that it has a better handle on the bass and goes deeper too.
Yello – Touch.
13756
More of the same from the FB, the 3D presentation doesn’t so much draw you into the music but immerses you in it, the soundstage is not only more forward but more left, right, top and bottom, I’ve only heard this kind presentation at home from a Blu Ray with another 3 speakers involved. This is the sort of sound I’ve been hoping to achieve from my stereo setup. The decay is again vastly superior to the CA and what I find more obvious with this record is the air around instruments. The one area I prefer the CA is in the bass, again I find the CA has more control and depth.
Pink Floyd – The Wall.
13757
I decided to compare the CA and FB with The Wall following on from Francois' review, this is a record that I find brings more balance to this attempt at a review. One issue I’ve had with the FB is that (in my house, with my equipment, IMO, YMMV etc...) it has a little too much gain. This is quite pronounced when playing The Wall, Alan has attempted to help me with this but as I’m pretty clueless I can’t answer his questions, I’m sure however this is something that Alan could overcome if I were to order a custom FB. Again, I prefer the bass from the CA and also find with this record the CA is able to dig out more detail, all be it in a more synthetic manner than the FB.
As far as I’m concerned it’s 2-1 to the FB and I would say this is fair for all the records I’ve listened to in this context. However this is from an objective(ish) point of view which has the “better” soundstage, decay, bass etc... From a subjective(ish) point of view I prefer the FB, it’s far more involving, natural and exciting, in short it’s just so much more musical.
I have been looking into replacing the CA for a while now and have come across the question of detail vs musicality in relation to phono stages and if I had to choose between the CA and FB, it would be the FB for me. I’d encourage anyone who’s thinking about upgrading their phono stage to try the FB, it's well priced, extremly well built and Alan's a pleasure to deal with.
My first impression is that the Kin doesn't seem to have the same 3d / holographic presentation of the earlier model, this may have been the music we listened to or maybe it's just my memory, it has been a year since I last heard a FB :scratch:. One area I'm pretty certain the Kin has come on in leaps and bounds is bass response, in my earlier "review" I didn't feel this was as good as the CA651, the CA651's now gone on to a new home but if I could compare them again I think the Kin would annihilate the CA. The Kin has great control of the bass, not only does it plumb the depths but has good texture and timing. I also felt in the previous comparison that the FB was lacking in detail, this is certainly no longer true. The Kin really digs out the detail and presents it very naturally with a level of clarity I don't think my Croft could currently match. The Kin, especially via the MC stage is very quiet (certainly quieter than my Croft with the Lentek connected), with only the very slightest noise audible if you put your ear up against the speaker.
As far as the phono stage of the Kin goes I think there has been a major evolution of the circuit since I last heard a FB and Alan should be proud of what he's achieved.
This was the first time I'd heard the Air and yes, it really does live up to it's name. There is a great sense of clarity and air between instruments, again I think this is in part due to the low noise of the circuit employed. It seems very well built and one thing true of the entire FB family is the enclosures are very high quality, I've yet to see a photo that does any of the new FB range justice, in the flesh they are very well constructed and finished, reassuringly heavy and wouldn't look out of place partnered with equipment in the same price bracket.
At the offered price I think the Air is quite a bargain and has a great synergy with the Kin.
One thing's for sure, Alan's not standing still, the FB family is expanding and evolving and for me it's enjoyable seeing and hearing the developments.
Firebottle
01-02-2016, 18:55
Can I ask for the Silver fascia and black rear panel or is that just too difficult?
Does it have to be one or the other for both?
You can have whatever combination you want :)
Firebottle
01-02-2016, 19:10
My first impression is that the Kin doesn't seem to have the same 3d / holographic presentation of the earlier model,...
I am starting to think that as the clarity improves, and the focus of voices particularly becomes more pinpoint, there is an impression that some of the 3D presentation appears to be lost.
I think this is because the separation but precise focus of all the individual elements/instruments draws you into the centre staging even though everything is still spread out before you.
Just ignore me if you think I'm talking :bum:
DarrenHW
01-02-2016, 19:56
I don't think you're talking :bum:. I did thoroughly enjoy the 3D of the earlier FB loaner, but I think the KIN is a better phono stage :). Certainly at Marco's the centre staging was excellent and perhaps deeper than the aforementioned loaner?
I am starting to think that as the clarity improves, and the focus of voices particularly becomes more pinpoint, there is an impression that some of the 3D presentation appears to be lost.
I think this is because the separation but precise focus of all the individual elements/instruments draws you into the centre staging even though everything is still spread out before you.
Also, not all systems are capable of highlighting the benefits of the increased resolution, offered by any piece of equipment, which is fundamentally more transparent :)
When you 'clean the window' in one area of a system, you have to ensure that the others aren't still 'murky', in order to, as it were, 'fully allow the sun to shine through'.... ;)
Marco.
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