PDA

View Full Version : Amp Swap advice please



The Vinyl Adventure
10-10-2009, 15:28
yesturday i had a bit of a negative experience with my hifi.. nothing major, but for the first time i heard some of the nagatives of my hifi's sound. i have been very happy with it for a while now, and infact havent been able to fault it at all... until yesturday!
so, im thinking of, dare i say it, selling the naim kit and moving up in the world
i should get about £1600 for my 82/180/hicap. i could up the budget to 2k i recon.. so options please?!
at the moment i recon my best option is something like the avondale kit i was on about a month back but i dont know what pre to team it with? i want to stick to small company hifi to avoid paying for the profits of a shop and to get a better bang for my buck

DSJR
10-10-2009, 15:56
Well, I have to suggest this one if noone else does - a *Croft* pre and power (series 7?). His gear is always about putting the music first and I like his ideas about using FET's in the amp output stage driven by a trusted valve driver circuit..

If you're still using the PMC's, which IMO need plenty of damping in the amp, then you could look at the later AVI amps which can be got for well under a grand and use a really good phono stage (loads about and another shout for Croft as well as ANT? [hope I have the latter right]).


One other totally off-the-wall suggestion would be a Croft pre (again) with a decent pro amp like an MC2, which is superbly made and "properly" designed.

Of course, Avondale will give you what you what already have, but better, more stable and if you do sell the 82, you can get a 72, rip out the boards you don't need and replace the others with updated ones........

The Vinyl Adventure
10-10-2009, 16:05
you not a fan of pmcs?

The Vinyl Adventure
10-10-2009, 16:51
come on efers this is a hifi forum there should be more opinions on what amps for 2k

REM
10-10-2009, 17:03
Hamish

Did you ever get that 82 re-capped? If not try that first (about £200 @ Class A) you could just save yourself a bob or three;).

Cheers

DSJR
11-10-2009, 17:18
you not a fan of pmcs?

In my experience, there's PMC and then there's PMC, in the same way that ATC market several ranges, all sharing certain concepts but of wildly differing abilities.

PMC's such as yours, in terms of "proper" bass reptroduction, have as much in common with the MB2/BB5 style of reproduction as my BC2's have with LS5/8's.

Get a listen to some PMC biggies sometime - it'll blow your mind :)


edit - my main concern is in the amps ability to control the bass units, 'cos transmission lines don't always have much damping in the line and the result is a humped up low bass with cancellations further up. According to HFW, the FB1 certainly exhibits this, as did many of the IMF's and TDL's of old.

Marco
11-10-2009, 17:35
Hi Hamish,

You never stated whether you would consider both solid-state and valve. I don't see why the PMCs wouldn't work with a decent valve amp (and one with perhaps some of the traits you liked of your Naim gear). You could get a pretty decent one for £2k (that's definitely the way I would go), so if you'd like some suggestions on that front, just ask :)

Marco.

Steve Toy
11-10-2009, 17:56
There is a certain valve amp for sale with Naim-like qualities for £1595. You could combine it with the new Croft pre.

Macca
12-10-2009, 19:56
yesturday i had a bit of a negative experience with my hifi.. nothing major, but for the first time i heard some of the nagatives of my hifi's sound. i have been very happy with it for a while now, and infact havent been able to fault it at all... until yesturday!
so, im thinking of, dare i say it, selling the naim kit and moving up in the world


Hamish

Would you care to expand on what the negatives are?


Martin

The Vinyl Adventure
12-10-2009, 23:22
its actually only there at higher volumes ... a fatigueing nature to the sound ... nothing major ... and i think it could have been mood/or maybe mains(?) induced as much as anything??? i havent had it since anyway .....
i need to do some reaserch into the avondale option i think...
there is a chap that has offered a home demo to me and i think i should take him up on it before i take this any ferther to be honest!

Stratmangler
12-10-2009, 23:38
Best sound I've heard lately - some bloody enormous 7 foot tall horn jobbies, driven by a SE amp - 6EM7 - producing 1 watt on a good day.

Handled everything thrown at it with no problems whatsoever. I started to become disconcerted when said system flicked a couple of fingers at me & called me a wuss !

All of the equipment mentioned was of the DIY persuasion.

Chris;)

twelvebears
13-10-2009, 05:39
Hi Hamish.

If you had been so happy with it previously, think carefully and try to check out a few options, preferably with home trials.

Guys, are there any manufacturers or decent deals that allow home-trials of kit? If Hamish is going to step away from Naim after all this time, surely hear some alternatives in his home has got to be the best way?

aquapiranha
13-10-2009, 05:44
You need to find a dealer who is willing to let you borrow a couple of amps for a week (easier with new kit) before you make any decisions. Try valves and SS if you can, just to illustrate the differences between the two.

steveinspain
13-10-2009, 07:12
OK, time for me to chime in..
Les at Avondale used to do a home trial, and for what it is worth, I went from a just serviced 52, Supercap, 250 to a Les special 102 pre with (Avondaled) 250 and 160 amps and was blown away when comparing them side by side. The rest of my gear is all Avondale, with my CD3, TPX4 and even Avondale speakers replacing a CDX/XPS and SBL's - If you like Naim but want more and IMO better, then it has to be worth a look and listen. The fact that I sold on my Naim and ended up with cash spare for other things (I won't go into my vinyl stuff here..) just added to the pleasure !
I do have to say that my exposure to other gear is very limited, so I cannot do other than suggest Avondale as worth adding to the list, and good luck !

REM
13-10-2009, 07:40
It's a difficult thing moving away from Naim amps, once the novelty of something new wears off it can be quite a downer when it dawns on you that you miss whatever it is that drew you to the Naim sound in the first place, been there, done that.
So, bearing that in mind, it might be better to go for a radical change of direction and ditch the silicon implants altogether and take to the bottle. Assuming the PMCs are ok with valves that's the route I would take. A little over budget at about £2.5k there is the Manley Stingray, quirky yes but judging by the very brief audition I managed to get (in a pro audio dealers' stockroom, don't ask) with the amp plonked on a chair, hooked up to some tinny Yamaha monitors, it just got on with it and made music, could have listened all day, fabulous little thing, built like a tank it has been giving me food for thought ever since I heard it.
Hope this helps.

Cheers

Steve Toy
13-10-2009, 13:20
Shameless plug I know but my Tube Distinctions modified A30 for sale at £1595 was described by Mr C of this forum as "thermionic Naim."

It does all the involvement and PR&T but with added texture, tonality and fluidity. Oh, and it does tight, fast, articulate, punchy and textured bass into the right speakers.

At 38wpc it isn't far short of a NAP 180 on the measured power stakes either. Probably more dynamic though with a much wider bandwidth.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4110

Also, I once heard a NAP 180 drive FB1s and I found this combination a touch lazy in the mid. This amp should sort that!

Mick Parry
13-10-2009, 15:13
yesturday i had a bit of a negative experience with my hifi.. nothing major, but for the first time i heard some of the nagatives of my hifi's sound. i have been very happy with it for a while now, and infact havent been able to fault it at all... until yesturday!
so, im thinking of, dare i say it, selling the naim kit and moving up in the world
i should get about £1600 for my 82/180/hicap. i could up the budget to 2k i recon.. so options please?!
at the moment i recon my best option is something like the avondale kit i was on about a month back but i dont know what pre to team it with? i want to stick to small company hifi to avoid paying for the profits of a shop and to get a better bang for my buck

Hamish

You have got old kit so if it is say 10 years old, it will benefit from a service.

A service will transform the sound and keep you in the Naim fold.

Whatever you do, stay away from bodging it, it never sounds good and the kit is totally devalued.

Regards

Mick

The Vinyl Adventure
13-10-2009, 15:34
Shameless plug I know but my Tube Distinctions modified A30 for sale at £1595 was described by Mr C of this forum as "thermionic Naim."

It does all the involvement and PR&T but with added texture, tonality and fluidity. Oh, and it does tight, fast, articulate, punchy and textured bass into the right speakers.

At 38wpc it isn't far short of a NAP 180 on the measured power stakes either. Probably more dynamic though with a much wider bandwidth.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4110

Also, I once heard a NAP 180 drive FB1s and I found this combination a touch lazy in the mid. This amp should sort that!

whats this steve.. the hard sell? ;)

if i could afford it i might concidor it but i would have to sell to buy... unless you want to let me have a demo in my house?
it is a very scary idea this i have to say... i keep coming back to the avondale idea as a safe step
1. i can keep my naim pre (the valuable bit)
2. it will be almost a sure fire upgrade over the 180

the only isue is i would have to find more cash in the first place
£900 for the avondale and £200 for a recap for the 180 -
£400 back from selling the 180 ... leaves me £700 to find but it def seems the most logical step for me to take (provided i like the avondale after a demo).... right???

The Vinyl Adventure
13-10-2009, 15:36
this is the avondale amp im thinking about http://avondaleaudio.com/naim-amplifiers-nap-250/

The Grand Wazoo
13-10-2009, 15:50
the only isue is i would have to find more cash in the first place
£900 for the avondale and £200 for a recap for the 180 -
£400 back from selling the 180 ... leaves me £700 to find but it def seems the most logical step for me to take (provided i like the avondale after a demo).... right???

You could always sell any spare body parts you might have kicking around!

Seriously Hamish, I've a feeling you might like the valve option so I'd try to get a demo if I were you.

Steve Toy
13-10-2009, 16:01
Hamish,

IIRC you don't live a million miles from my and are en-route to where the replacement amp will have to be picked up from. If you wish I could do a home dem.

The Vinyl Adventure
13-10-2009, 16:03
Chris
through varios comment made on this site you have gained a position of a view that I take note of... With that in mind can you expand on your previous comment :) if it's not to much trouble like....

The Vinyl Adventure
13-10-2009, 16:05
Hamish,

IIRC you don't live a million miles from my and are en-route to where the replacement amp will have to be picked up from. If you wish I could do a home dem.

Sorry steve, run that by me again ... Replacement amp?

The Vinyl Adventure
13-10-2009, 16:06
.... Oh I get ya... Really? That would be great if it was poss?

Mick Parry
13-10-2009, 16:24
Hamish

You can buy second hand Avondale for pennies on ebay.

If you buy it and like it you have scored and if you don't like it, you can chuck it in the local skip with little financial loss.

Regards

Mick

Steve Toy
13-10-2009, 16:27
Mick,

Warm glowing bottles.... think warm glowing bottles.... You know it makes sense. Not through Briks mind.

Hamish,

I'll pm you my number. Text me or give me a bell.

Mick Parry
13-10-2009, 16:33
Steve

I admit warm glowing bottles have a certain appeal but a warm glowing Naim amp appeals even more.

Regards

Mick

Steve Toy
13-10-2009, 16:39
Mick,

The valve amps I use - the one I am using now as well as its intended replacement actually out-Naim Naim at what Naim are supposed to excel at. Yes even the Nap 500 comes second into the right speakers, i.e. at least 89 dB sensitivity and a reasonably even 4-8 ohm load.

I'd quite happily put my valve pre/power combination up against a 552/500 combo any day for pace, rhythm and timing as well as dynamics, tone, texture, fluidity and expression.

The thing I would lust after from Naim would be the CDS 555. Now that is a truly awesome CD player. The CDS3 otoh is really nothing special at all.

The Vinyl Adventure
14-10-2009, 01:16
Hamish

You can buy second hand Avondale for pennies on ebay.

If you buy it and like it you have scored and if you don't like it, you can chuck it in the local skip with little financial loss.

Regards

Mick

Are you the naim crazy man from pfm!
I'd so I got the point that time round ;)

REM
14-10-2009, 08:38
Hi Hamish

There is (yet another) Naim-v-Avondale thread over on PFM (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=69804) if you haven't already seen it. Not that it will get anywhere but you never know, it might help a bit, no it wont, yes it will, no it wont etc., etc.,;)

Mick Parry
14-10-2009, 09:41
Are you the naim crazy man from pfm!
I'd so I got the point that time round ;)

Hamish

I am making a suggestion that will save you money. Second hand Avondale stuff is virtually valueless, so you could buy the top end stuff for peanuts. You can then try it out at your liesure and then decide if you like it or not.

If you like it, you have a cheap amp and if you dont like like it, you can dump it for little financial loss.

Regards

Mick

Steve Toy
14-10-2009, 09:53
Hamish may yet see the light from those warm glowing bottles...

Otherwise it could mean a change of speakers because Naim amps don't really set the midrange of FB1s alight.

The Vinyl Adventure
15-10-2009, 00:05
Mick

If you see any Avondale kit for peanuts then please let me know!
I wonder if we have a similar idea of peanuts?

Steve Toy
15-10-2009, 01:03
Mick really doesn't like the Avondale concept at all. I think he considers it sacrilegous.

Mick Parry
15-10-2009, 08:31
Hamish

Naim kit holds its value fairly well and hence is never cheap, Avondale stuff has a low residual value and you can see it going for peanuts on ebay.

The advantage of buying second hand Naim is that you can buy it, keep it for a few years and then resell it at a similar price for what you paid. So it is effectively hifi for free.

Steve

I have nothing against Avondale kit, just the way you know who keeps slagging off Naim which is effectively the hand that has fed him.

Regards

Mick

The Vinyl Adventure
15-10-2009, 17:51
Hamish

Naim kit holds its value fairly well and hence is never cheap, Avondale stuff has a low residual value and you can see it going for peanuts on ebay.

The advantage of buying second hand Naim is that you can buy it, keep it for a few years and then resell it at a similar price for what you paid. So it is effectively hifi for free.

Steve

I have nothing against Avondale kit, just the way you know who keeps slagging off Naim which is effectively the hand that has fed him.

Regards



Mick

have you just forgoten you have said this before? I know and understand your point.. Even though it's not entirerly true, I know what your getting at, I understood the first time you told me on pfm some weeks back!

Mick Parry
15-10-2009, 18:17
Hamish

You ask the same old questions and I will give the same old answers.

Regards

Mick

The Vinyl Adventure
15-10-2009, 18:40
I would just prefer that it is assumed that I am intelegent enough to remember your resposes. Especially as you did express them so repetativly.
Anyway this question was much more broad than the one on pfm... And I would have thought that it was obvious the sort of answers I am after....
Anyway, this is a silly convo, you know where I stand and I know where you stand so let's leave it at that shall we???

steveinspain
15-10-2009, 20:13
Sorry to butt in here, but I find Mick Parry's repetitive posts about how good Naim is and how bad Avondale is utterly boring. He has been posting the same stuff for years, but has he ever listened to any Avondale gear ? He certainly went quiet when I offered him the chance to visit me in Spain (he has a place near me) and I know of many others who have also offered him the chance to listen to the scrap he seems to think Avondale is. The more I get to know what sort of person he is, the happier I am that I didn't open my doors to him.
Now, we all have opinions, and most are founded on limited exposure to whatever alternatives there are that we have heard, but most of us are smart enough to know not to slag off an alternative blindly.

Mick, if you regard Naim as something that holds its value, then fine by me. I sold my Naim for Avondale as it sounded better, not for its resale value. I listen to music for pleasure, and do not care about resale value - one evenings pleasure from my stereo and choice of music is worth way more than whatever it all cost. I have no idea what secondhand Avondale is worth, but the few bits I have bought have been close to new price, making me think that it does hold its value, if that is a criteria.
So, why not try to post something interesting and new for once, and please give us a break from all the same old that you always seem to post.
Having been exposed to your drivel for several years now I am amazed to find myself actually rising to you, and I apologise to all who read this - it is my first ever aggressive attack on any forum that I have been a part of. Enough said.

Mick Parry
15-10-2009, 22:52
Steve

You also post the same old drivel, Avondale is good etc. The reality was you had to buy cheap or else have no hifi because you were skint. I have heard Naim and I have heard Avondale and the Naim is better. I actually offered to call on you in March and you said it was inconvenient, so don't start saying I am reluctant to compare. I am seriously thinking of buying a laptop + AVI system for the Spanish place, so I think I cannot be accused of being totally blinked.

I like my money more than most and if I thought Avondale was better, I would buy it and sell the Naim and then I would have a pile of cash sitting in the bank. The reality is that the Naim sounds better so I stick with it.

Love

Mick

PS Your post was not aggressive, it was like being tickled with a feather duster.

Marco
15-10-2009, 23:08
PS Your post was not aggressive, it was like being tickled with a feather duster.


Wouldn't tickled with a tea-cosy be more the thing, old chap? ;)

Marco.

P.S I so love these 'Naim wars' - they remind of the good old days when I used to rule the roost in Salisbury land...

The Vinyl Adventure
15-10-2009, 23:26
I don't want to butt into my own thread now, but I feel I should just point out some things.
Mick, for what ever your back ground is I don't really care, your opinion towards naim is blinkered ( And this is coming from someone who belive the best hifi I have heard was naim) you must see that other people are capable of hearing somthing different to you! Il give you one word to think on ... Opinion...
Your opinion is respected around these parts as much as anyone elses.. Don't think that because of what you might think you are, you are beond that... as it won't be recived well round here ... at all!!

Marco
15-10-2009, 23:31
Hamish, stop being a big girl and buy a nice valve amp! :ner:

What's the worst that could happen? Think of Dr Pepper.

Trust me, it's a bit like when girls say: "once you've had black you never go back"!! ;)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
15-10-2009, 23:35
Piss off fatty ;) yeah well buy my flat and il buy a valve amp... Deal? :lolsign:

Marco
15-10-2009, 23:38
LOL!

Is your flat for sale? I could do with somewhere compact and bijou to store my sizeable collection of vintage claret ;)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
15-10-2009, 23:42
Get with the program ...
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4206
I'm open to offers!!

Marco : always on the back foot..... ;)

The Grand Wazoo
15-10-2009, 23:44
LOL!

Is your flat for sale? I could do with something fairly compact and bijou to store my sizeable collection of vintage claret ;)

Marco.

It would be of absolutely no use to you at all, Marco - there are no 'doom-doors of destiny' fitted to Hamish's place

The Vinyl Adventure
16-10-2009, 10:37
I don't want to butt into my own thread now, but I feel I should just point out some things.
Mick, for what ever your back ground is I don't really care, your opinion towards naim is blinkered ( And this is coming from someone who belive the best hifi I have heard was naim) you must see that other people are capable of hearing somthing different to you! Il give you one word to think on ... Opinion...
Your opinion is respected around these parts as much as anyone elses.. Don't think that because of what you might think you are, you are beond that... as it won't be recived well round here ... at all!!

I think I should apologise for this ... Bit ou of character for me... I was in a right old rare last night .. Or at least I was on here... I can't even remember being in a bad mood in real life... Anyway sorry Mick this was out of order!

steveinspain
16-10-2009, 11:18
My last post on this, as I know it will go nowhere, but to clarify a couple of Micks facts about me..
I sold my Naim as I had already got something I preferred. At the time I had several different amps, cd players power supplies, and was comparing them all to see what I liked best. My being skint or not is totally off thread, and as it happens, untrue at that time.
When I offered to let you come round, I explained that as my free time was limited due to having kids to tend for etc, so a time would need to be carefully arranged - I never said it was inconvenient.
As for me often posting about Avondale being good - I do post that, but I think you will find it hard to have ever heard me slagging something else off. Having gone from Naim to Avondale because I preferred it says it all - I do not make statements about Naim being rubbish, or worthless etc.
Interesting that you comment that I 'ALSO' post the same old drivel. I assume this means you realise that you do too ?

Lastly, me being aggressive. I like to post in a friendly helpful and honest way to the best of my abilities, and have never entered any sort of forum 'battle' as I don't think it is what forums are for. My post to you was as extreme as I get. I will read any reply you may make, but don't expect any reaction.
Apologies to Hamish for the hi-jack..

The Vinyl Adventure
16-10-2009, 11:23
i dont mind, id take your side anyway

Mick Parry
17-10-2009, 08:24
Hamish

There is no need to say sorry, you merely expressed an opinion just as I did, so there is nothing to apologise for. Just remember one thing, Naim has a legion of loyal customers that most companies would give their right arm for. That only comes about because they offer a brilliant product backed up by customer service that is second to none.


Steve

I agree with you. there is no point in replying back to you.

Regards

Mick